Can we discuss the Green Party?

(53 Posts)
sheisaba Wed 03-Apr-13 18:51:38

I pretty much have lost my faith in all the major parties. I cannot vote lib dem again after this coalition debacle. Labour are a lost cause and I can't see myself voting for them again.

Their inability to meaningfully oppose the coalition at this time is terribly disappointing. TBH, I think they are too in the pockets of big corps to be an effective opposition party.

So who is left? I like the Green party's official line, especially about creating a fairer society. So any one who knows more about politics able to tell me if they are really worth a shot? Will they be another lib dems that would sell their souls at the first sniff of power?

I want to be able to vote for a party that won't disappoint that would at least make a credible opposition to the mainstream.

ttosca Wed 03-Apr-13 21:12:36

sheisaba

I'm with you entirely there, and I agree with your feelings about the Lib Dems and Labour.

I don't really know how the Greens would be if they were in power. I can't predict their future. Their manifesto seems sound. I also wrote to Caroline Lucas recently, and I got a long, considered reply - which was very nice.

I can only say that I would sooner vote Green than any of the other large parties anyday.

sheisaba Wed 03-Apr-13 23:27:46

ttosca, I would really be interested in the gist of their response. Realistically, I know that they will be a tiny minority after the next election. I am at a point right now of getting apathetic and opting out like a lot of people which is when dangerous people get in power.

LittleTyga Wed 03-Apr-13 23:31:16

I did an online test and discovered I was 100% Green - I love their policies and their language on the website seemed real, unlike the false language used by the other parties.

The Greens have my vote in the next election - even if it is a protest/wasted vote. I love them!

flatpackhamster Thu 04-Apr-13 12:39:25

The Green Party's policies are authoritarian (in that they believe that the power of the state is more important than that of the individual) and strongly socialist. Not for nothing are they nicknamed watermelons.

Their taxation policy is (IMO) wholly unrealistic and based upon the assumption that, if they raise taxes on the rich, the rich will just sit there and suck it up. Their spending commitments are far higher than their purported tax take. Their industrial policy is not only unrealistic but also illegal under EU law. Their energy policy would ruin the country.

Given that socialists are the ones who pan out to be the biggest crooks (note today that Francois Hollande's minister in charge of tax evasion is a tax evader), I think that you're going to be disappointed if you want principle.

LittleTyga Thu 04-Apr-13 14:34:59

Eliminate fuel poverty? Pay a living wage? Make the highest polluters pay? Effective welfare benefits for all?

LittleTyga Thu 04-Apr-13 14:38:08

Hadn't finished but I don't agree. They want to address equal pay, promote maternity and paternity leave, they want to make sure that food is distributed fairly so no one starves. They don't sound Authoritarian at all.

LittleTyga Thu 04-Apr-13 14:47:25

Just one more thing - I've got to get back to work! But if the Greens are Authoritarian why do always have some Tory breathing down my neck since the day they got in by the skin on their teeth?

Authoritarian is exactly how I would describe the Tory party!

ipadquietly Thu 04-Apr-13 15:00:33

I've been looking into joining, but the website of my local Greens hasn't been updated since 2011. hmm

flatpackhamster Thu 04-Apr-13 17:56:31

LittleTyga

Eliminate fuel poverty?

Pay a living wage?

Make the highest polluters pay?

Effective welfare benefits for all?

Hadn't finished but I don't agree. They want to address equal pay, promote maternity and paternity leave, they want to make sure that food is distributed fairly so no one starves. They don't sound Authoritarian at all.

Some of those actions are compatible with governments which aren't authoritarian. The ones you've listed there are popular rallying cries of socialist parties across the world. They all require an aggressive intervention in to the economy in some form. Fuel poverty, the living wage, higher costs for 'polluters', maternity and paternity leave, fuel distribution, equal pay. They all say "We, the government, know best."

Just one more thing - I've got to get back to work! But if the Greens are Authoritarian why do always have some Tory breathing down my neck since the day they got in by the skin on their teeth?

Authoritarian is exactly how I would describe the Tory party!

So would I. The modern Conservative party isn't libertarian, or interested in the freedom of the individual, at all. It's just that the Greens would be worse in their bullying nanny-statism.

ttosca Thu 04-Apr-13 21:49:53

flatpack is a libertarian capitalist - you know the sort, low taxes, deregulate everything, privitise everything, no social security, etc...

If flatpack doesn't like the Green party, that's just about the best sort of endorsement you can get.

flatpackhamster Thu 04-Apr-13 22:44:42

It's like you don't know me at all. Not that it'll stop you flapping your yap.

ttosca Thu 04-Apr-13 23:02:55

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 14:37:02

'I pretty much have lost my faith in all the major parties. I cannot vote lib dem again after this coalition debacle. Labour are a lost cause and I can't see myself voting for them again.'

,,,,

So who is left?'

You failed to mention the Conservative Party.

ttosca Fri 05-Apr-13 14:41:55

lol!

The 'People's Party', right? ;)

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 14:50:06

The party the people voted for, yes.

But not as in tune with the people as the people's paper, alas.
There is too much talk of carbon credits, windmills and greenhouse gases unfortunately.

ttosca Fri 05-Apr-13 14:54:56

Actually, the people didn't vote for the Nasty Party. That's why they're in a coalition govt. They certainly didn't vote for the destructive policies they are currently undertaking.

Just to be clear, though, if, at the next general election more people vote for Labour, will that make Labour 'The People's Party'?

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 14:57:16

Wild talk of wobbly windmills on windswept walleys will fail to win the public wote. A Dear John letter is all the public wrote. Am I wrong or am I wright?

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 14:59:20

'Just to be clear, though, if, at the next general election more people vote for Labour, will that make Labour 'The People's Party'?'

The Progressive Party, certainly. The People's Party, no. A Party Trick, possibly.

ttosca Fri 05-Apr-13 15:05:27

It's funny how confused and incoherent you are.

I love the Green Party's policies and wish they had more power. I would vote for them in a heartbeat, but I live in the middle of Tory-Land and they have absolutely no standing here whatsoever.

If they were canny, they'd be leaping on this current disillisionment of most of the electorate with the "Big Three" and upping their profile. If UKIP is emerging as a new party to reckon with, the Greens certainly should too, and politically they are far preferable to UKIP as an alternative party.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 15:08:01

'If they were canny, they'd be leaping on this current disillisionment of most of the electorate with the "Big Three" and upping their profile.'

Annie, if they "upped their profile' and explained their policies, they might end up losing more votes than if they kept quiet. I am sure their strategists have thought this all through.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 15:48:14

'I love the Green Party's policies and wish they had more power.'

Found this link, entitled

Excepts from Green Party of England and Wales 'Manifesto for a Sustainable Society'

Have a read of it and see how you like it.

www.sci.sdsu.edu/salton/Immigration_PopGreenParty.html#Population

Craig, I realised years ago that we have no common ground between us for reasonable discussion. I will not be engaging with you on this thread.

Sorry, autocorrect of claig.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 19:18:58

OK, but please read the document and see if you agree with it.

Sigh. Okay, I'll bite.

Firstly, that was a random website, not actually connected with the Green party so I have no way to know if those really are actually quotes from their policies. I will investigate further.

Secondly, on skimming through I didn't see anything I fundamentally disagreed with.

flatpackhamster Fri 05-Apr-13 20:28:51

I reckon the Green Party's support for unrestricted immigration will be a vote winner. And their support for electricity rationing and a cut in people's standard of living should have them queuing round the block come election day.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 21:26:40

Annie, don't skim it read it carefully word for word and think about every word. Then go to their website and read their manifesto.

LittleTyga Fri 05-Apr-13 23:49:57

Flatpack - I've read their Policy on Immigration and they do not support unlimited immigration and how does a rise to a living wage cut people's standards of living? My standards of living have got worse in the last few years. I'm earning the same as I was 20 years ago. Except now I have two extra mouths to feed!

As far as I can read on their website their policies sound fair, well thought out and ethical.

I really like the sound of them and wish they would take this opportunity to really up their profile.

flatpackhamster Sat 06-Apr-13 06:50:22

Read their 2010 manifesto. They wouldn't deport illegal immigrants, they'd allow them to work and to naturalise. They wouldn't limit entrants from other EU nations. That's an open door policy. It says "Come on in, and bring your family, your mates and your pet dog Gerald."

The 'rise to a living wage' won't cut people's standards of living. Energy rationing will. Read their 2010 manifesto on energy. They explicitly say they will 'reduce' demand. They'll scrap all our gas, coal, oil and nuclear power generation and rely entirely on renewables and, presumably, fairy dust and unicorn smiles to make up the shortfall.

Right. The way this thread has gone doesn't bode well for the Greens then. Oh well, UKIP it is. I'll warn my forrin DH to pack his bags.

ttosca Sat 06-Apr-13 15:12:34

Annie-

Why don't you email Caroline Lucas and ask her why she thinks you should join the Green Party.

Alternatively:

https://www.facebook.com/TheNoPartyUK?ref=stream

Viviennemary Sat 06-Apr-13 15:20:37

I've voted Green a few times in the past. I do approve of most of their policies and the other parties are all a waste of time at the moment. But I'm not sure I'd vote green again because they never seem to get anywhere. I think if they had more power more people would vote for them. I know that's not very logical.

I'm amused by the assumption that I just randomly decided to like the Green party one day without actually reading their manifesto first.

Anyway, like I said, no point in joining the Green party, for all extents and purposes they don't exist where I live. I might as well join the American Democratic party. I hope they do push their profile forward in the future though.

showtunesgirl Sun 07-Apr-13 01:21:29

Erm, you do know that Caroline Lucas is no longer the leader of The Green Party? It's now Natalie Bennett

flatpackhamster Sun 07-Apr-13 08:14:44

AnnieLobeseder

Anyway, like I said, no point in joining the Green party, for all extents and purposes they don't exist where I live. I might as well join the American Democratic party.

If everyone had felt that way about UKIP it wouldn't now be coming third in polls ahead of the Lib Dems. If there isn't a group in your area you need to start one and find other like-minded people, and stand for the local council. That's how it works.

I hope they do push their profile forward in the future though.

Well I'd be surprised if they pick up much more of the vote. I can see them climbing to about 6% or 7%, and holding on the far-left areas like Brighton, but their policies don't appeal to mainstream Britain.

Branleuse Sun 07-Apr-13 08:29:27

ive given up voting after whhat happened last time.

Pointless exercise in futility, and the only reason is to make people think they have some sort of democracy, when in actual fact they just do exactly what they want and fuck the people.

sheisaba Sun 07-Apr-13 11:04:05

Well the conservatives are a no go for many reasons.

As a daughter of immigrants flatcaphamster a party that uses humanizing language when talking about immigrants will always have my vote. The stats are available for anyone that is interested that immigrants as a group give in taxes a whole lot more than they take out. Immigrants and people of the commonwealth are very much a fabric of the UK's historical genes and vice versa.

Economically, quantative easing and bail outs are hugely interfering and unsustainable in the long term. As far as I am concerned I can't see one party that's not economically authoritarian at this time. If they need to interfere so much in the markets I would like the focus to be on the whole of society, i.e. a living wage, etc

Interesting discussion so far though. I do realise that my vote will not bring them to power but at least I will have done my bit. I might contact them about helping out in London and get involved.

sheisaba Sun 07-Apr-13 11:37:19

Another thing that I am sick of is 'fear politics' and divisiveness. I become so turned off when I feel I am being manipulated. I want to be treated like a grown up that can handle the facts even god forbid have an opinion on macro economics policy.

There was an interesting article about the London Whale that the reason he nearly brought down JP Morgan was because his many managers actually did not understand what he was doing. He apparently peppered the terms of presentations with such jargon that none of his managers wanted to look stupid and question him on it.

This is what I feel is happening with the economics decisions currently, they are so peppered with jargon that Journos and the public actually aren't asking the basic questions. Most reasonably educated adults would understand fiscal policy at a decent enough level.

THIS is the article if anyone is interested.

Politicians are no smarter than the general public so it makes me nervous when they enter into overly complex monetary policies as I am pretty sure they don't know what the hell they are doing.

Solopower1 Sun 07-Apr-13 20:51:58

If you like Green policies it's a good idea to vote Green because then the parties that do get in will have to take note, and might skew their policies a little more towards the Green ones.

That's what happened with Cameron and UKip. As soon as he realised how popular they were becoming, he started to try to look as if he was taking on board some of their issues.

Another way of getting Green policies put on the agenda is to join one of the more popular parties and fight from within.

But much more information needs to be out there - they need a far higher profile. I also had problems finding an up-to-date Green manifesto in the last elections.

flatpackhamster Sun 07-Apr-13 21:33:46

sheisaba

As a daughter of immigrants flatcaphamster a party that uses humanizing language when talking about immigrants will always have my vote.

The stats are available for anyone that is interested that immigrants as a group give in taxes a whole lot more than they take out.

There are also stats which show they compete with unskilled and semi-skilled 'natives' (can't think of a better word but represents those people already living here and whose parents lived here, from whatever background) for scarce jobs, and for scarce public sector resources such as social housing and good schools.

Immigrants and people of the commonwealth are very much a fabric of the UK's historical genes and vice versa.

I don't think anyone, least of all the first and second generation black and Asian UKIP voters and candidates, disagree. It is disingenuous to suggest UKIP is against all immigration. But UKIP rightly raises [essentially] unlimited immigration as an issue because it affects a swathe of voters who are ignored by the other parties.

There are several arguments here - do we need more migrants, have we got room to house more migrants and at what point do we consider the UK 'full'? Remember that 90% of migrants remain in London and the SE. 70% of migrants who arrived since 1997 have remained in London.

sheisaba Sun 07-Apr-13 22:59:27

London isn't really full, there are other cities with much higher population densities doing quite well. I would say that living spaces can be designed better, not talking tower blocks and we have a lot to learn about better designed living spaces.

The crux of the issue of the issue is ratio. The ratio is 4-5x higher in uncollected tax to welfare fraud. The fact that the parties don't seem to be bothered tells me that the agenda has noting to do with scarcity of resources.

sheisaba Sun 07-Apr-13 23:03:48

Am going to message MNHQ to see if we can get Natalie Bennett on MN live Q&A Solo. See if we can get some more details on their manifesto.

Solopower1 Mon 08-Apr-13 06:41:09

Good idea!

For anyone who thinks voting for anyone other than the "main parties" is futile, just vote for whoever you want anyway. Better than not voting because noone takes notice of a no show. Look at UKIP.

Same goes for those who don't vote because they live in a "Tory heartland" etc. noone notices or cares about the no votes. They do care about those who vote for other parties because they have something to worry about those who feel strongly enough to vote at all, even more so who vote for those who are not a mainstream party.

Thats why I vote in every election and will be voting Green next time around. I've read their manifesto.

flatpackhamster Mon 08-Apr-13 07:13:28

sheisaba

London isn't really full, there are other cities with much higher population densities doing quite well.

Those two points aren't mutually exclusive. You do know that there's a huge 'white flight' taking place at the moment, don't you? Hundreds of thousands of Londoners are leaving for the suburbs. That puts pressure on surrounding areas, on their schools, on their roads, on their house prices.

flatpackhamster

Please provide evidence for this statement: Hundreds of thousands of Londoners are leaving for the suburbs. That puts pressure on surrounding areas, on their schools, on their roads, on their house prices

ouryve Mon 08-Apr-13 15:54:20

I have voted green in the past. I think a lot of their policies are sound, if a little on the idealistic side. I have a sticking point with their transport policies, though, as, unless they throw a lot of money at subsidising public transport, they would be punitive for those of us who live in rural areas or commute across counties, or even travel a lot to get to work. They would also have to heavily subsidise local shops if they really want us to be less reliant on the roads they want to neglect (and our roads in the Northeast are already over capacity and neglected without their lack of help). I can't see them finding anything in the coffers for that.

ouryve Mon 08-Apr-13 15:55:46

You're not alone in your disillusionment, btw. Check this out.
leftunity.org/

superstarheartbreaker Wed 10-Apr-13 23:15:39

Thank goodness we have one party that is interested in sustainability , that's all I can say. Unfortunately most people won't vote for them
which means we are all screwed! as many are very short sighted and cannot see how sustainable energy and sustainable living equals sutainable economic growth. Most people are only interested in what is on their plates NOW and how much they have on their plates. I feel taht Green policies address the bigger picture.

Startail Wed 10-Apr-13 23:22:35

In practical dreamers, who need to grow up.

Why dreamers Startail?

The current government in a long line of governments blue and red have not done enough to make sure the less well off are in a position not to need benefits (and I'm talking about shitty wages requiring state top up) and we continue to waste resources. Being "green" is actually about being more efficient and effective in a sustainable way - a message which I think the greens could do more to promote.

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