Justice for Men and Boys - Isn't this exactly why we need feminism

(1000 Posts)
wickeddevil Sat 30-Mar-13 22:27:42

Heard Justice for Men and Boys Founder Mike Buccanan on Womens Hour earlier today complaining that men pay 72% of all income tax.
Well isn't that because they have more income?
And instead of complaining about the feminist agenda doesn't it demonstrate why we need it?

Welovegrapes Sat 30-Mar-13 22:30:16

I loved the labour mp's question to him - asking what had happened in his personal life to make this his viewpoint.

What about his suggestion of compulsory paternity tests?!

Pan Sat 30-Mar-13 22:40:33

I heard all of this on Womans Hour....the irony of having such a programme in the topic discussed seemed to have been lost on both of them, or at least it was never mentioned.
The tax issue was a deeply embarrasing own-goal from the start ( as was pointed out).

Laddio wasn't the..<ahem> best protaganist here, but the level of male suicides, poor schooling outcomes, outcomes in civil courts re access, and the propensity to violence are BIG topics. Just not best addressed by a numpty like laddio.
<fwiw, male posting this>

wickeddevil Sat 30-Mar-13 22:43:48

Oh yes I loved that question too. Wonder what did happen. As for compulsory paternity tests - can't even begin to comment...

Pan Sat 30-Mar-13 22:45:43

does it need feminism to correct it? Not so sure.

Sunnywithshowers Sat 30-Mar-13 23:34:04

72% of all income tax? Really?

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 01-Apr-13 17:33:33

I think that there were some interesting points raised in the discussion that do merit attention. The topic of some fathers post-divorce having difficulty accessing their children, for example, is a hardy perennial. But the organisation seemed to be looking at everything down the wrong end of the telescope and the spokesman sounded very nervous and bitter - the kind of man that writes to the local paper in green scratchy biro. That assumption that women are tricking men to bring up other people's children on a wholesale level was pretty bizarre all by itself.

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 17:39:08

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ThingummyBob Mon 01-Apr-13 17:47:04

hmm

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 01-Apr-13 18:25:19

Didn't hear any personal attacks or shaming tactics on the programme. It was a perfectly reasonable & calm discussion and you managed to come across as an idiot all by yourself...

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 19:48:14

Oh that was you? There didn't appear to be any personal attacks on the show - well other than a good deal of gentle mocking, which frankly you set yourself up for from the off re the tax take issue.

fwiw I'm sure the level of female-on-male DV is quite under-reported, but the simple stats do not reveal the repeated nature, the seriousness of the assaults and the impacts of male on female assaults have on children.
Also fwiw, I have come across a lot of DVers, and victims. When perps describe their upbringings, they never ever recall mum knocking ten kinds of poo out of dad. Anecdotal I know but still has a confounding effect...

< in any event I was referring to any male violence, usually against other men, and as I indicated against themselves all to often>

and I'm a man Pan with that Y chrome thing going on.

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 20:12:44

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Hassled Mon 01-Apr-13 20:17:48

Mike - your Google Alert must be working overtime.

You haven't replied to wickeddevil. Isn't the issue not that men pay more tax than women, but that men earn so much more than women to warrant paying more tax?

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 20:35:06

Hassled, thank you. I honestly don't know what a 'Google alert' is, and have no interest in finding out. As I said in my first post in this discussion stream, I was alerted by one of our party's supporters, Lavinia. She's a generous donor too, and in common with many of our supporters she's a mother of boys and sees their futures may be blighted in a feminised education system which ensures that for every two young men who reach university, three young women do.

Men collectively pay far more tax than women for a variety of reasons. Off the top of my head:

1. From the moment they leave f/t education (and right up to retirement age) men are more likely than women to be in paid employment, and far less likely than women to engage in p/t work.

2. Men are more likely than women to do the (mentally and physicaly) tough and stressful jobs which attract a pay premium due to supply/demand. They are as a result more likely than women to be affected by 'progressive' taxation rates.

3. Men are FAR more likely than women to enter dangerous lines of work. Even today men account for 95% of work-related deaths.

Mike Buchanan
mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 20:36:40

Mike, your presentations are really flawed and with holes the size of an ocean. As well as DV, I also know a lot about child sex abuse, having been concerned with it for decades. At any one time there are about 3,300 men in prison for sex offences (of all types). You will also find about 50 women in prison for those offences (rape obv being excluded). I proportion of those will be for 'aiding and abetting' or 'procuring' with/for a male. Eliot talks of 75% being women acting alone. Utter utter tripe, in the reality of female sexual offending.

The idea that "women tend to use items, broom handles and bottles" etc is so far from reality it sinks Eliot's credibility for anything else she has to say, and indicates the quality of 'advocate' you rely on.

There ARE some crucial issues that affect male well-being, referred to above, but your 'canvas' misses most of them, and appears to rely on misinformation about the ones you do focus on. I'm afraid you won't be getting my vote.

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 21:08:22

I think overall, you could do with 'less blaming women' and more about helping to educate men about how to better feel, think, and behave, for their benefit and that of those around them. <it's one of the aspects of why I don't self-identify as a feminist>
Otherwise you could easily just come across as a woman hating blamer.

Hassled Mon 01-Apr-13 21:19:51

Mike - assuming your statistics are accurate re tax (I have no way of knowing), then yes, there are clearly inequalities in society. Who do you think suffers the most from those inequalities? Which gender do you think is materially the most badly affected by those inequalities?

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 21:38:41

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Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 21:42:59

no Mike, I am certainly NOT saying that men should act more like women. (you haven't been around Mumsnet much have you?grin). I'd suggest that they behave the better part of themselves - nothing to do with female standards of behaviour.

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 21:47:56

Mike are you seriously asking 'how are women' as a group 'facing disadvantage in 2013'. Just to be clear.

Blistory Mon 01-Apr-13 21:48:43

One disadvantage ? Just one ? How about the fact that 1 in 4 women are likely to be raped ?

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 22:04:07

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Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 22:06:10

Well there's numerous-to-the-power-of-numerous examples.
But I'm doubting you wish to know about or acknowledge any of them at all.
In order to make the world a nicer place, look at the male behaviour patterns.
Good evening.

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 22:07:38

tbh Mike, I've looked at your 'evidence sources' and they are pretty flimsy at best.
Evening.

Blistory Mon 01-Apr-13 22:12:53

It really doesn't matter what anyone posts as you're simply going to pull out your own facts and statistics. Let's use anecdotes then. There's a lengthy thread on here in AIBU which details the low level physical and verbal abuse that women face every day . I'd link to it but I can't be arsed putting any effort in to it for you given that you're not actually interested in anything than your own point of view.

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 22:15:35

Thanks Pan.

1. 'numerous-to-the-power-of-numerous examples' means nothing to me (and, I suspect, others). Can you possibly translate this into plain English?

2. Which of our 'evidence sources' are 'pretty flimsy at best'? I'm genuinely intrigued to know. Nobody has EVER challenged our evidence sources before, mainly because they're rock-solid. That possibly explains why we're making steady progress, and why our opponents are limited to insults, personal atacks, and shaming tactics.

Blistory Mon 01-Apr-13 22:21:34

Refuted decades ago ? I thought you were talking about 2013 ? Or do the more up to date statistics not do it for you ? So not only do we lie about rape and being victims of DV but we now also manipulate statistical data. Hmmm, pot, kettle, black.

If you're really interested in finding feminists who'll give you the list of disadvantages you don't think exist, go and post in FWR and you'll find some incredibly articulate, knowledgable and thought provoking posters who will engage with you.

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 22:29:04

A comment's just been posted with respect to my 'Woman's Hour' discussion with John O'Farrell. Enjoy:

Mike,

I only just got around to listening to this and having done so I wanted to commend you on your style and delivery. Excellent job!

John, IMHO, came over as a shallow-minded, stuck in his ways, childish moron who hadn't got the decency to acknowledge any of your well made points. His sneering and and shaming only made him look even worse. Your end line slam-dunking his statement that your party would get ignored was a classic when you raised the fact that you'd had 10 BBC interviews in 22 days. Fantastic and exactly what we need to get the attention we deserve!

Keep up the good work, Mike.

ElBurroSinNombre Mon 01-Apr-13 22:34:06

Hi Mike,

I heard the interview.

One thing that I was interested in was your idea of every baby having a compulsary DNA test to establish parentage at birth. In your view, this would, prevent males from having to bring up (and pay for) children that are not really their own. Have you really thought about the implications of this idea - it sounds to say the least, a little extreme.

TheCrackFox Mon 01-Apr-13 22:44:21

Maybe we could DNA test the entire country? Micro chip everyone at the same time too!

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 22:46:32

Thanks Blistory. Of course I'll pull out our facts and statistics. That's our strength. You appear to be missing the key point - our opponents have nothing like our base of facts and statistics. That's their weakness. Game on.

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 22:54:09

ElBurro... let me ask you the question I asked in the 'Woman's Hour' interview. We wouldn't expect women to work 20+ years to support another woman's children - so why should we expect men to work for 20+ years to support another man's children? Why should we accept this double standard?

Blistory Mon 01-Apr-13 22:59:13

In the interests of fairness, I did read your links. So you would like to decriminalise prostitution, DNA test every baby, allow men to walk away from their responsibilities if they were tricked into conceiving a child, remove state support from single mothers, overturn existing legislation that protects women (actually it protects gender not women specifically), shut down or remove funding from organisations that you deem to be run by militant feminists, have children of broken homes spend alternate weeks with each parent, and so on and so on. You have no concept of how truly disturbed your views are. I have no further wish to engage with you as it is clear that you are here to pander to your own ego, to peddle rape myths and to contribute to the daily misogyny that continues to harm women. I'm tempted to point out that your views indicate that you may be an arsehole but that would be coming close to breaking MN talk guidelines so I shall refrain from doing so.

I'm baffled Mike, who expects men to support other men's children? As far as I'm aware, men are generally only expected to support their own children, and more often than not, they don't even bother doing that.

I'm also baffled as to how you think men get a worse deal than women in our patriarchal society. Do you really think that the one or two small instances where women may actually come out on top means that men need some kind of champion. You do realise that giving women the same rights and privilege as men doesn't actually involve removing those rights and privilege from men in the process?

And, have you missed the part where the people doing injustice to men are in fact, other men? Perhaps if women had more power, they would be doing injustice to men. But we don't know, because women have no real power. We feminists would like to make things better and more fair for women and for men, we really would. Because the world is skewed to favour only wealthy white heterosexual males, which leaves a lot of people getting a hard time. But sadly we aren't yet in a position to do so.

TheCrackFox Mon 01-Apr-13 23:02:46

Clearly women are workshy given how little tax we pay so there would be no money left over to bring up someone else's baby for 20+ yrs.

May as well finger print all newborns in the delivery room just in case.

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 23:07:02

Mike - that thing about DNA testing (which I'd forgotten amongst the rest of the easily-mocked stuff) it does mean that dads would be held accountable much easier. You do realise that, don't you? Which I suspect wouldn't fit in v easily with your agenda.
fwiw as well, children aren't possessions and property to be haggled over.

Blistory Mon 01-Apr-13 23:09:01

Annie, apparently 30% of births arise from paternity crime. And single mothers are single by choice. And if men don't sign a legal consent to a child arising from sex, they shouldn't be held responsible - which is fair enough given the deviousness and treachery of all those women involved in paternity crime. I blame Eve. Adam was fine until she caused all mankind to be cast out.

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 23:12:09

Annie, I refer you to our consultation document. With respect to your first point, paternity fraud (and attempted paternity fraud) have long been criminal offences in the UK. In 2008 the CSA publicly admitted it knew of over 1,200 examples of attempted paternity fraud. It's estimated there are MILLIONS of British men who've been tricked into supporting kids who aren't biologically theirs (but they've been misled to believe they are). How many British women have been convicted of the offence? None. Nada. Zippo. Rien. Why, that damnable patriarchy!

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 23:19:33

As a piece of advice Mike, I'd drop that DNA test thing off your 'manifesto'. I am suspecting most of your potential 'electorate' would squeal at the thought of responsibility being aimed at them.

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 23:35:01

Pan, thanks. Are you seriously suggesting women shouldn't be held accountable for trying to commit the criminal offence of paternity fraud?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 01-Apr-13 23:37:21

Hang on, 1200 examples...but MILLIONS of British men?

Blistory, can I get a lift outta here with you?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 01-Apr-13 23:38:58

<pops head back in>

Mike, whichever men are proven by the DNA tests to be biologically the father, will they be criminals if they don't pay child support?

KateBeckett Mon 01-Apr-13 23:42:28

This is an April fool right? This guy can't be serious surely...?? confused

wonderstuff Mon 01-Apr-13 23:43:02

Loving the poor men being tricked into fatherhood through 'forgetting' to take the pill, evil women, you do know men are able to do the contraceptive thing don't cha?

So if men arent paying for babies that poor men haven't signed up for, those 'accidents' because clearly only women are responsible for getting pregnant, what happens? In the 19th century they thought that single women would be deterred from having sex if men weren't obliged to pay for illegitamate children. The flaw in the plan was that women aren't always in charge of when they have sex and who with, women were left with the choice to either go on the game, kill themselves or kill their babies. Obviously times have changed, but it is worth looking back, to contextualise how we got to where we are.

Well, Mike, I fully support your theory of paternity testing with the proviso that each and every man who is found to be the father of a child be forced to contribute exactly 50% to the cost of bringing up that child. And I would also ask you if you have any figures on how many fathers actually contribute financially to their own offspring? It's not a lot.

I'm interested that you feel single mothers shouldn't get any support. I assume you mean either from the state or from the fathers of these babies. Because you seem to be glossing over the fact that these children weren't conceived immaculately. Anyone taking part in sexual intercourse runs the very real risk of becoming a parent. Why do the fathers of these children not feature in your manifesto?

Oh, Kate, he's serious. He's visited us before.

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 23:44:46

no Mike, I'm suggesting that the 'accountability' that Doctrine refers to would be v unpopular with your proposed electorate.

KateBeckett Mon 01-Apr-13 23:48:53

That is truly terrifying Annie. sad

wonderstuff Mon 01-Apr-13 23:55:19

Mike feels that if men haven't signed up for having children then they shouldn't be forced to pay for them, evil women are tricking men into having sex without a condom see, men should be able to have sex without having to worry about babies, women it seems have total control over reproduction! Gotta feel for the poor men, I mean look at how little power they have...

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 23:56:27

Can't believe Woman's Hour gave this guy a platform on their show hmm

What is with the BBC at the moment??

MikeB: for you biscuit

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Tue 02-Apr-13 00:02:40

This is an April fool right? This guy can't be serious surely...??
You'd think...

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Tue 02-Apr-13 00:06:30

Maybe men should be made to sign a form accepting responsibility for any prospective progeny before they get their penises out in the first place?

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance Tue 02-Apr-13 00:06:54

Nope.
Mike's back, setting back the agenda for true equality a decade or two.
My sons won't thank you for this, Mike.
Watch out for the 2 eldest though. If they put their minds to it. <proud>

Pan Tue 02-Apr-13 00:07:16

Mike, given that you like to quote 'feedback', can you quote some of this stuff on your site? In the interest of 'balance'?

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance Tue 02-Apr-13 00:07:26

Nope being a response to Saggy

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance Tue 02-Apr-13 00:08:07

Saggy's first post garn

MikeBuchanan Tue 02-Apr-13 00:25:57

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SaggyOldClothCatPuss Tue 02-Apr-13 00:32:17

And your point is?

Sunnywithshowers Tue 02-Apr-13 00:36:57

It appears Mike knows my stepmother.

Good night all.

So there are other bigots out there too? Hardly news. If there weren't misogynist bigots out there, we wouldn't need feminism.

Hey Mumsnet, the ones who are mothers of boys - do you fear for them in this age of dodgy feminist dogma? No? I thought not.

TranceDaemon Tue 02-Apr-13 00:42:39

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SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 02-Apr-13 00:43:36

Sunny grin

Did someone pop a fiver in a card for you Mike?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 02-Apr-13 00:45:35

I have boys. I think they'll be all right wink

Mike, I do dread to think of the experiences you have had in your life to make you hate women so much.

CogitoErgoSometimes Tue 02-Apr-13 08:21:11

Did you insist on compulsory paternity tests when your own kids were born? confused And just how far did the mother of your children drop kick you down the maternity ward as a result...?

wickeddevil Tue 02-Apr-13 08:47:00

No still don't get it.
Cannot see such a misogynistic campaign group making any positive contribution to society. For men or women.
A fair society would reward men & women equally for the work they done (and then collect taxes just as equally)
A decent society would support victims of DV regardless of their gender or the gender of the perpetrator. And would act to prevent it.
Not Mr Buchannon's agenda then.

seeker Tue 02-Apr-13 08:56:36

So assuming that your DNA at birth policy happens, what will you do to make sure that the men who are proved o be the fathers of their children contribute financially,practically and emotionally to the raising of those children?

CogitoErgoSometimes Tue 02-Apr-13 09:00:19

BTW.... the 'KKK' reference that Buchanan objects to was quite apt. That group believed that when human rights for African Americans were improved this somehow was detrimental to the white population. Exactly the same irrational response that says improving conditions for women makes things worse for men... Quite incorrect.

seeker Tue 02-Apr-13 09:04:10

It's all about the mistaken belief that there aren't enough human rights to go round- if a disadvantaged group have some, it has to involve taking them away from someone else. When what actually happens is that privilege is taken away from one group, and rights are given to another- so both groups end up level.

wickeddevil Tue 02-Apr-13 09:55:38

Instead of DNA at birth perhaps Mr B would prefer men to go through pregnancy, labour and childbirth. Now that could be justice. (Grin)

ElBurroSinNombre Tue 02-Apr-13 10:08:08

Wicked,

I believe that it is possible for a male to have a fertilised egg implanted and to go through pregnancy - I am not sure how the birth is handled, presumably caesarian. I have a feeling that this has happened somewhere already.
Maybe in Mike's brave new world this will be the way forward and there would be no need for DNA testing at birth either! Double bubble!

SolomanDaisy Tue 02-Apr-13 10:16:40

If the BBC didn't keep giving him a platform, this would just be another green ink internet frother.

ElBurroSinNombre Tue 02-Apr-13 10:24:34

Kind of agree Soloman but I am interested in ideas / viewpoints and there was some interesting (if controversial) stuff in there. The fact that male suicides are far more common than female ones was mentioned but not really explored.

seeker Tue 02-Apr-13 10:35:54

The main reason there are more men than women committing suicide is that men tend to use more effective methods, and are therefore more successful.

seeker Tue 02-Apr-13 10:39:13

I think women attempt suicide slightly more often than men.

ElBurroSinNombre Tue 02-Apr-13 10:42:37

seeker,
That explanation does not really address the underlying reasons. Many suicide attempts are a 'cry for help'. It would seem from what you say, that for men this is less often the case.

Pan Tue 02-Apr-13 10:45:30

seeker - the male suicide rate is three times the female rate. (17.7 per 100,000). That's a lot of deaths.
Is the method the 'main reason'? Really? Can you substantiate this at all?

seeker Tue 02-Apr-13 10:47:03

The "cry for help" thing is questionable. As I said, more women than men attempt suicide.

Pan Tue 02-Apr-13 10:52:39

The 'attempted' analysis is much less sure-footed i.e we really don't know ultimately, do we?
Overall though the 17.7 in 100,000 stat is desperate. Every 'early' death has a ripple effect affecting so many people, but it seems to be a rate society accepts.

ElBurroSinNombre Tue 02-Apr-13 10:52:40

seeker,

The logical conclusion of what you are saying is that women are incompetant at comitting suicide in comparison to men. Is this what you really mean?

Pan Tue 02-Apr-13 10:54:31

and who did all the reporting/deleting? The thread is looking a bit..well..threadbare.

seeker Tue 02-Apr-13 10:54:41

No- men tend to use more "violent" methods. " No return" things like guns and hanging. Women take pills.

Massive generalisation- but largely true.

ElBurroSinNombre Tue 02-Apr-13 10:55:00

Pan,
That is why it is interesting. Would we expect such a gender bias in successful suicides? If not, can we explain it or has it been explained etc.

seeker Tue 02-Apr-13 10:56:54

Oh, ffs- who on earth reported MB's posts? And why delete?

He'll be going on about being censored by the wicked feminists on some other site in a minute. And, god save me, he'd have a point!

Pan Tue 02-Apr-13 10:58:29

seeker , please point to the evidence for this. I'd be happy to believe it, if there was evidence. It sounds at the mo like a cliche. My best friend chose to end his own life, and did so by pills. He is the only example I have knowledge of. So a survey of 1 is a bit limiting.

ElBurroSinNombre Tue 02-Apr-13 10:59:21

I think I read most of what was on here and didn't see anything offensive. Perhaps a bit of name calling but fair play to Mike in that he didn't rise to it.

seeker - I think that you have answered your own question. No return means that you really want to die, other suicide methods leave the possibility / probability that you will survive. Why would there be a gender difference in these rates? - that is all I am asking and from a neutral perspective.

pollypandemonium Tue 02-Apr-13 11:02:40

100% of all women go through childbirth. Men do none of that. It's unfair.

Men never suffer periods and only 10% of men suffer from foot deformity by wearing high heels.

It's unfair.

biscuit

Pan Tue 02-Apr-13 11:07:00

"100% of all women go through childbirth" - really?

The emotional well-being of men is, generally, in their own hands, and certainly nothing to do with female resourcing. IF we looked after ourselves better we wouldn't be having these stats - problem is getting the importance over to men.imho

Pan Tue 02-Apr-13 11:08:08

maybe HQ could say a word about why MB was deleted so heavily?

Probably for promoting his own website and agenda.

Pan Tue 02-Apr-13 11:16:43

oh I seeee. But then I couldn't see his website, or agenda, getting much traffic from here. He didn't even post in Dadsnet.grin

seeker Tue 02-Apr-13 11:19:43

pan-just looking for the up to date and UK stats I've seen somewhere- I'll be back.

Pan Tue 02-Apr-13 11:22:19

happy to beleive if it does show 'violence' or some such, seeker. But then even 'self-harmers' with knives can go 'too far' and not grasp the terminality of their actions.

KateSMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 02-Apr-13 11:24:19

Hello all,

We deleted some of MikeBuchanan's post as they were promoting his blog and some of his books, which is against our talk guidelines. We've dropped him a line to explain our rules about advertisings.

Sorry for not explaining what we were doing at the time and for making the thread a bit Swiss Cheese like.

Sunnywithshowers Tue 02-Apr-13 11:28:17

polly did you mean that all women go through childbirth? Because that's not true. Or did you mean that men don't go through childbirth?

Pan and seeker
It's not just the method of suicide. Men are less likely to seek help for
mental health issues, and more likely to have drug or alcohol problems.

www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-information/mental-health-statistics/men-women/?view=Standard

www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-information/mental-health-statistics/suicide/

It's a huge problem, particularly among young men. It has been argued (but I don't think it's mentioned in the links above) that our patriarchal culture actively dissuades men from talking about their problems. So they suffer in silence and ultimately are more likely to kill themselves.

Pan, I'm sorry for your loss. I've lost two friends to hanging - one male, one female. sad

The suicide issue again highlights how the patriarchy hurts men as well as women. Why some people think women are to blame for these issues and tightening up the patriarchy will help is beyond me.

Pan Tue 02-Apr-13 11:38:20

Thanks Kate!

sunny - thanks, and I'm sorry too for your missing friends.

yes men are just less likely to seek help, for any probs., which is part of the explanation behind the disparity in male/female rates, and even when it's brought to their/our door it isn't accepted as relevant, or at least the importance of it is hard to make plain.

Sunnywithshowers Tue 02-Apr-13 11:47:38

Hi Pan

Have you seen this charity? It was set up in 97 to address the high suicide rate in young men.

I'm sure I read somewhere that men in marriages are healthier than men who live alone, as they are more likely to get help from the doctor for health problems. I think we need to promote a culture where men see their own problems around health and mental illness as important, and where they feel that these problems will be listened to and taken seriously.

Pan Tue 02-Apr-13 11:52:19

yes, sunny, thanks, in part of my RL we use some material from CALM with groups of young men and individuals. After the initial sniggering, it seems to be quite effective. Taking one's own life is just the final act of living miserably.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 02-Apr-13 13:49:23

ElBurro, how is the logical conclusion that women are "incompetent at committing suicide"? What an odd phrase.

ElBurroSinNombre Tue 02-Apr-13 16:46:52

The comment was made in answer to seeker. It was the logical conclusion of her statements;

The male suicide rate is higher - by three times.
According to seeker the rate of attempted suicides is higher amongst females (have not seen the stats to prove this) but take it at face value
She rejected the idea that some suicide attempts are 'crys for help'
Therefore, in seekers mind all suicide attempts are geniune attempts to end life
Yet the male rate is 3 times the female rate.

Why?

I should add that personally I do not agree with the statement and I do not think that there is a competition of suffering on things like this.
I just think that it is interesting that there is such a discrepancy and it is one that should be addressed in some way.

pollypandemonium Tue 02-Apr-13 17:11:53

Although I try to be statistically correct you may have to have a sense of humour to interpret mine correctly. My post should have read:

100% of all people who give birth are women.

It's unfair.

Men never suffer periods and only 10% of men suffer from foot deformity by wearing high heels.

It's unfair.

MikeBuchanan Wed 03-Apr-13 22:12:23

Good evening. Very pushed for time, so forgive me if I limit myself to two things:

1. Seeker, I have no intention of publicising deletion of my posts on MN on any websites. MN has guidelines, and if I've unwittingly contravened them, it's only reasonable my comments are deleted. I make every effort not to be offensive despite occasionally extreme provocation (e.g. John O'Farrell equating 'Justice for Men & Boys' with the KKK on 'Woman's Hour'), and to point people to sources of information such as ONS reports on domestic abuse/violence.

2. Suicide. Women 'attempt' suicide 3x more often than men. Men commit suicide 3x more often than women. A 9x differential. What might explain this? I've asked a number of experts in the field why this might be, and they all offered a startlingly consistent analysis. Women EXPECT society / the state to support them in a crisis, with good reason, and will typically make a 'cry for help' e.g. take a paracetamol overdose then immediately call 999 (several of my own female relatives and friends have done this over the past 20 years). Men DON'T expect society / the state to support them in a crisis, with good reason, so will typically use a certain (or near-certain) method to end their own lives.

Can you IMAGINE what the state's response would be if women were committing suicide at 3x the rate of men?

Men have always been expendable. The state tells men in distress to go hang themselves. We shouldn't be surprised that so many of them end up doing exactly that.

Mike Buchanan

JUSTICE FOR MEN & BOYS
(and the women who love them)

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 22:23:51

John O'Farrell has it about right then.

Pan Wed 03-Apr-13 22:28:27

"Very pushed for time, so forgive me if I limit myself to two things:"

Less than one would have been better?

You do realise that you will probably be heavily mocked every time you pop up here?

ElBurroSinNombre Wed 03-Apr-13 22:37:20

Mike,

The stats are very interesting. I am a man and unlike yourself I do not believe that the state tells me to 'go and hang myself'.

Is it possible that the reason why the stats are different because men and women are biologically different and have different behaviour patterns (on average). Your 'analysis' treats them as if they were identical - but they are not. The difference in behaviour could be either have evolved along with our species or be cultural expectations of male behaviour. It would be interesting to know if these stats. are repeated in other societies - this would tell us whether it was something about being male or something about being British that causes the discrepancy. If it is just cultural expectations then it would be easier to do something about it.

To rebut your point - The Samaritans, for instance, does not (afaik) discriminate between the sexes in the help that it gives and if it could be proved that it did this would be illegal.

MikeBuchanan Wed 03-Apr-13 22:52:56

Pan, if I'm 'heavily mocked' for giving my opinions on MN and pointing people to reliable sources of information, so be it. Water off a duck's back, and all that. If you think I'm going to be deterred by personal attacks and shaming tactics, whether from you or anyone else, you're not learning from experience. Personal attacks and shaming tactics are reflective of an absence of evidence-based counter-arguments.

Thanks ElBurro... I don't see how my analysis - or rather that of experts in the field, who I cite - treats men and women 'as if they are identical', and for what it's worth, I think nothing of the sort. Men are far more likely than women to commit suicide across the developed world. In many countries the differential between male and female suicides is even more marked.

seeker Wed 03-Apr-13 22:53:42

"Men have always been expendable. The state tells men in distress to go hang themselves. We shouldn't be surprised that so many of them end up doing exactly that."

So if a man rings 999 nobody answers the call? But if a woman does somebody comes?

MikeBuchanan Wed 03-Apr-13 23:18:35

Seeker, I'm not saying that. But let's look at how the state operates in a number of areas:

1. Homeless people - 95%+ are men, partly because women are given priority for social housing.

2. 40% of victims of domestic abuse/violence are men (ONS figures). Given that the ONS also reports men are three times as likely as women not to report DA/DV, it's reasonable to assume that men make up the majority of victims. So what places in refuges does the state finance? 4,000+ for women, 15 for straight men (Mankind Initiative).

3. While the state forces men to financially support their ex-partners and children, it doesn't in return ensure those men are gven reasonable access to their children. Women routinely frustrate contact orders knowing they won't be taken to account for it. Forced separation from children is believed to be a major driver of male suicide.

4. Unemployment is known to be a bigger driver of suicide among men than women. For every three women registered as unemployed, four men are. Men pay 72% of the income tax paid in the UK, women only 28%. Almost two-thirds of public sector employees are women, yet the Equality Act (2010) allows public sector bodies to favour women over men when recruiting and promoting.

I never cease to be amazed at the compassion women (reasonably) expect men to show women, given the lack of compassion women (unreasonably) show men in return.

Pan Wed 03-Apr-13 23:24:33

" yet the Equality Act (2010) allows public sector bodies to favour women over men when recruiting and promoting."

is there no end to your ill-informed nonsense?

seeker Wed 03-Apr-13 23:38:37

"Seeker, I'm not saying that. But let's look at how the state operates in a number of areas:

1. Homeless people - 95%+ are men, partly because women are given priority for social housing.

Women are not given priority for social housing- people with children are. Overwhelmingly, single people with children are women

2. 40% of victims of domestic abuse/violence are men (ONS figures). Given that the ONS also reports men are three times as likely as women not to report DA/DV, it's reasonable to assume that men make up the majority of victims. So what places in refuges does the state finance? 4,000+ for women, 15 for straight men (Mankind Initiative).

i'm not qualified to comment on this- except to point out that women are murdered by men in domestic violence incidents an order of magnitude more often than the other way round

3. While the state forces men to financially support their ex-partners and children, it doesn't in return ensure those men are gven reasonable access to their children. Women routinely frustrate contact orders knowing they won't be taken to account for it. Forced separation from children is believed to be a major driver of male suicide.

*Do you actually have any evidence to support these claims? They do not reflect what I see in my life-but anecdote is not data, on either side.

4. Unemployment is known to be a bigger driver of suicide among men than women. For every three women registered as unemployed, four men are. Men pay 72% of the income tax paid in the UK, women only 28%. Almost two-thirds of public sector employees are women, yet the Equality Act (2010) allows public sector bodies to favour women over men when recruiting and promoting.

Men pay more tax because the occupy the majority of better paid jobs. 'More men than women are registered as unemployed because more women are full time carers. Two thirds of public sector employees are women because women fill significantly more lower paid and part time jobs than men does and that is what the majority of those jobs are. The Equality Act does not allow public sector bodies to favour women.

I never cease to be amazed at the compassion women (reasonably) expect men to show women, given the lack of compassion women (unreasonably) show men in return.
Those who deserve compassion should have it, whether they are men or women. I see no lack of compassion towards men- examples please

MikeBuchanan Wed 03-Apr-13 23:58:55

Pan and Seeker, must go now, but I wrote at considerable length in one of my books about the Equality Act (2010). Won't say which book, lest I contravene MN guidelines, but the act included the concept of 'positive action' which is effectively positive discrimination (for women and others) in all but name. Why, it's almost like patriarchy is a crazy fantasy haha!

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 00:00:31

who is this person posting like an utter utter freak?

Pan Thu 04-Apr-13 00:04:03

no Mike, 'positive action' under the act has 3 specific requirements. Sex/gender isn't one of them, not by name or inference. If you'd researched properly you would have known this?
Maybe come back when you're better informed?

Pan Thu 04-Apr-13 00:07:57

If you mean Mike?....oh he's apparently sincere, but his posts and views are a bit delusional, and not well informed. I'd now see him as a bit of a troll, so for me best ignored.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 04-Apr-13 00:13:43

Pan and Seeker, must go now, but I wrote at considerable length in one of my books about the Equality Act (2010). Won't say which book, lest I contravene MN guidelines,

Yeah, we'll all, like, be rushing to pick that up.

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 00:15:21

Yes him! What does 'women (and others)' mean? There's women, transpeople and men - that's everybody isn't it so who is the positive discrimination favouring?

Pan Thu 04-Apr-13 00:25:50

it's more to do with arguing that 'positive discrimination' is used to promote women over men. The Act is not supportive of that, is very clear - that has always been illegal. I apply this as part of one of my prof. tasks. Mike is a bitter fantasist, imho.

AThingInYourLife Thu 04-Apr-13 00:31:24

grin

Watching Pan, seeker and ElBurro take that guy apart was properly funny.

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 08:18:37

"Pan and Seeker, must go now, but I wrote at considerable length in one of my books about the Equality Act (2010). Won't say which book, lest I contravene MN guidelines, but the act included the concept of 'positive action' which is effectively positive discrimination (for women and others) in all but name. Why, it's almost like patriarchy is a crazy fantasy haha!"

Interesting that you had to go at this particular point. However, positive action and positive discrimination are two completely different things. In practice and in law.

ElBurroSinNombre Thu 04-Apr-13 09:27:12

Mike,

Thanks for clarifying about the rates in other countries. I am not at all surprised that male suicide rates are higher than female rates abroad as well as here. My guess would be that they also would also be higher in developing / third world countries if statistics were kept on this sort of thing.

Does this mean that all of the other countries with higher suicide rates for males also discriminate against men causing these tragic deaths - as you suggest is the case in the UK?

The alternative hypothesis is that men (in general) are more likely to make a successful suicide bid because they are biologically different to females.

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 12:12:38

Men kill more often - themselves, other men, women. Suicide is essentially a violent act and men commit the majority of violent offences.

JennyWoo Thu 04-Apr-13 14:26:54

I have just listened to the interview now. What an absolute plonker. Someone has some serious unresolved personal issues and is venting on a large "political" stage. It is quite simply ridiculous to imply women are taking over. The reason changes made are seen to be in favour of women is because there's more to be changed to make things equal between the sexes. It leaves me baffled that there are women that support you and your "cause". Like the BNP you may well gather a few followers until they let you speak too much and realise it's simply a hate-filled, misogynistic and very public drawn-out tantrum.

CogitoErgoSometimes Thu 04-Apr-13 14:58:51

" It leaves me baffled that there are women that support you and your "cause". "

We've only his word for that... Then again, being female doesn't exempt anyone from being a misogynist. Bottom line is that life's tough enough, there are plenty of inequalities that don't involve gender and we'll get a lot further a lot quicker working together as grown-ups than we will with childish demands like all new mothers taking paternity tests. I really don't get the point of the 'more men commit suicide' remark... All suicides are a tragedy, not a competition. hmm

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Thu 04-Apr-13 15:05:49

There is no way more men are domestically abused/raped than women.

That has to be some sort of a sick joke, right?

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 15:08:25

I thought the suicide reference might be used to reinforce claims that society is somehow so tilted against men as in converse situations likr China where women and girls complete suicide far more often than men. But actually men are just more likely, globally, to take human life whether their own or others'.

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 15:09:21

If men are more domestically abused than women why don't we see their murders on the news every week?

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 15:15:23

If Mike comes back perhaps he can tell us how many men in the UK are killed by their current or ex wives or girlfriends each year, how many are killed by women they know in some other capacity and how many are killed by women they don't know.

If there are any left, how many are killed by other men.

Thanks in advance.

ElBurroSinNombre Thu 04-Apr-13 15:25:31

The suicide stats have had me intregued so I started looking for the stats for Saudi Arabia - for obvious reasons. I couldn't find anything concrete but from what I read it looks like, even in Saudi men commit suicide more than women. As has been pointed out, men are more predisposed to violence on average and personally I think this is a more likely reason for the disparity.

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 15:28:02

Look at China ElBurro.

Pan Thu 04-Apr-13 18:41:13

I've googled a 'suicide by method' and it breaks down by gender in the UK. It's from 2001, but I'd venture that it doesn't vary much, for the reasons mentioned by ElBurro. It's a small table and fairly easy on the eye.

here.

ElBurroSinNombre Thu 04-Apr-13 18:48:25

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

The list above is broken down by country and some give gender information. In all countries that give gender stats (bar one or two), men have comitted more suicides than women (per head of population).

Sunnywithshowers Thu 04-Apr-13 18:52:29

I read somewhere years ago that, when women attempt suicide, they generally have an idea in their head of what they will / want to look like dead (self-objectification?), hence they are more likely to choose to die by an overdose. Conversely, men who attempt suicide simply choose a way they think will work.

Suicide by overdose is more likely to fail than some of the more violent methods of suicide, as it's harder to judge. This might be one reason why men are generally more 'successful' at killing themselves than women.

Beachcomber Thu 04-Apr-13 18:59:17

There are no doubt other reasons for the higher rate of male suicide (such as not asking for help, etc) but logic says two things;

a) Men are more prone to violence.

b) Men are less likely to have children depending on them who need them not to kill themselves.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Thu 04-Apr-13 19:09:57

Is there a gender difference in gun ownership/access?

Miggsie Thu 04-Apr-13 19:10:29

I wish we could get stats on how many people feel like suicide then get past those thoughts and go onto happier lives. Surely the issue is how do we help people who feel suicidal stop feeling that way and moving on to better things? Are women better at getting over suicidal thoughts?
Or is society structured so men feel suicidal more often? That should be looked at if it is so, but male suicide rates are not linked to the socio-economic status of women surely????! Getting help to people who need it is vital - but don't make it a gender issue, both sexes have MH problems and both should be supported.

Or was he was arguing that paying higher levels of income tax makes you suicidal?
Very strange topics to string together.

Pan Thu 04-Apr-13 19:13:39

I think you are under-estimating the brackets bit Beachcomber ie not asking for help, and struggling to accept it when offered. That over-rides the inclination to violence and the child responsibility element.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Thu 04-Apr-13 19:15:27

Is there a gender difference on prescriptions of the kind of drugs you can overdose on?

Pan Thu 04-Apr-13 19:16:48

Well, it's a gender issue, generally imho in that men are MUCH worse performers at self-care than women are. Hence, as I'd said, suicide is the final act of living miserably.

But no, bugger all to do with resources allotted to women.

Beachcomber Thu 04-Apr-13 19:23:40

No desire to underestimate Pan - it just wasn't what my post was about.

I would be interested in any analysis/research of how socialization of women to accept/expect to put up with all manner of crap, that comes from our lower status in society, affects things like suicide rates.

Pan Thu 04-Apr-13 19:33:52

Well, it does undermine what your post was about, tbh. Securing sources of emotional well-being, and men being 'their better self' over-rides your list of 2 factors all day.

Sunnywithshowers Thu 04-Apr-13 20:02:31

I agree with Pan about self-care, which is why in general married men are in better health than single men.

And yes, absolutely fuck all to do with resources allocated to women.

Beachcomber Thu 04-Apr-13 20:13:59

Pan are you suggesting that men are not more prone to violence? Or that they are more likely to be children's primary carers?

Of course men not seeking or accepting help is important in male suicide - which is why I was careful to mention it in my post.

I think male violence is immensely important too in this issue that's all.

Pan Thu 04-Apr-13 21:52:52

Beachcomber - of course I didn't suggest either of those things, I'm surprised you raise that?

chocoluvva Thu 04-Apr-13 22:15:44

Where men and women do the same job, men are likely to be paid more.

Women are more likely to be full time carers and do low-paid work such as cleaning.

In primary schools, teachers of both genders pay more direct attention to boys than to girls - studies have shown this.

Women who deny paternal access to their children are not behaving well usually - that is undeniable, however women are much less likely to abandon their children than men.

The proportion of women in the cabinet has gone down.The proportion of women in chief-executive roles has not risen for many years.

Beachcomber Fri 05-Apr-13 09:29:40

I raised it because you interpreted that I underestimate the phenomenon of men not seeking help and then said it undermined my post.

Studies have been done which show similarities in both social behaviour and elements of brain chemistry in men who commit homicide and men who commit suicide. Which, when one thinks about it, hardly seems surprising - they are both acts of extreme violence, one being against others and the other being against oneself.

The majority of homicides are committed by men and the majority of suicides too. Research suggests that these two behaviours are two sides of the same coin. The research is, of course, far from conclusive and the subject matter highly complex.

Anyway, I only raise the subject because posters like Mike would do better to fight against male violence in all its manifestations than play oppression olympics on here.

Beachcomber Fri 05-Apr-13 09:33:59

And studies have also been done which reflect that women are much more likely to consider their loved ones and dependants in the decision to end their lives or not.

Which again is hardly surprising as women are socialized to think about and take care of others.

chocoluvva Fri 05-Apr-13 09:35:31

Also to pick a method of ending their lives which is less gruesome to witness.

Beachcomber Fri 05-Apr-13 09:49:25

True. Some say that women think about 'their appearance' when it would really appear to be that they think about what the person who finds them will have to see.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 09:59:39

Very interesting article on why men commit suicide more often than women. I don't think it is really about violence (since violence is an extrenalised form of aggression) whereas suicide is is an internalised form of self-harm based on powerlesness.

The article makes the point that attempted suicides are often a cry for help and that people sometimes choose a method that does not end up being fatal.

I think it is correct to point to a way of thinking and decision making that may be different.

' Murphy believes women are less inclined to commit suicide because their thinking is more inclusive. While a man might tend to throw aside seemingly peripheral issues to get to the core of a problem, a woman might take more things into account. She may continue to seek input and process problems long after the point where men decide on a course of action.

"She'll consider not just her feelings but also the feelings of others -- her family, the children, even acquaintances, and how those people will be affected by a decision like suicide," Murphy says. "A man is much less likely to take those things into account. He makes his decision, and it's about him, so he doesn't feel the need to share it with anyone else."

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/11/981112075159.htm

I think it is fair to say that if suicide figures among men are higher then a greater proportion of suicide prevention resources might possibly be spent reaching out to men (by advertising campaigns or similar things) in order to try and influence the all-or-nothing type focused thinking that seems to lead them to take their lives more often.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 10:02:32

The article mentions that women attempt suicide more often than men, but that more men commit suicide.

Beachcomber Fri 05-Apr-13 10:27:05

Claig the very definition of suicide is 'self-directed violence'

The CDC describe suicide as the leading case of violent death in the US.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 10:30:54

Yes, maybe you are right.
I'm not a psychologist, but I have always thought of violence as being directed at others not at oneself. I tend to think that self-harm is not the same thing as violence, due to the direction of the act.

Is a woman who takes an overdose of sleeping pills being violent?

Beachcomber Fri 05-Apr-13 10:38:28

Yes, I think it is a form of violence - self-directed violence, just as I think self-harm of any sort is a form of violence.

Certainly there are links between interpersonal violent behaviour and suicide with substance abusers being a particularly high risk group. www.psychiatrictimes.com/suicide/content/article/10168/1780669

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 10:49:38

'The tendency to engage in violent behavior is a potentially important risk factor for suicide in substance abusers. Up to 75% of those who begin addiction treatment report having engaged in violent behavior (eg, physical assault, mugging, attacking others with a weapon).20,21 Emerging research also indicates that violence may partially account for the connection between substance abuse and suicide risk. For example, in those seeking treatment for substance use disorders, the perception that they have difficulty in controlling their own violent behavior was associated with a greater likelihood of a prior suicide attempt'

I don't agree with this. I think the people are more violent due to the substrance abuse and not because of anything to do with the risk of suicide.

I think the classification of suicide as violent reclassifies human behaviour and relations and possibly was originally introduced for a political purpose - a possibly progressive purpose. Maybe one that blames the victim rather than the substance which is used in the "substance abuse".

I am against the progressive policy of legalising drugs and substances than can alter the minds and behaviours of people. I believe that quite often the violence and even suicide and hopelessness and despair is a product of these substances and not of any intrinsic propensity to violence within human beings themselves.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 10:55:22

'just as I think self-harm of any sort is a form of violence'

Do you then think that anorexia is violence?

I don't, I think it is an illness and I think the depression and hopelessness and despair that can lead to suicide is also often an illness or mental ilnnes and is not violence. I think that treating these things as violence risks diminishing and even blaming the victim and has potential dangers about how people are viewed by the people who treat them.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 11:01:14

I think that treating the death of a person who jumps off a building in complete hopelessness and despair as an act of violence is the act of a system that views people as numbers, that sees an injury as being the result of violence rather than understanding what led to that injury.

I think it is an example of progressive thinking and can only be formed by an extrenal observer of human psychology which feels little empathy with the victim. That is why I think it is potentially dangerous in that it treats people as statistics and their desths as incidents of "violence" when I feel that they were no such things, but were instead figures of "desperation".

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 11:08:13

The Daily Mail reports today on a man who had a PhD in physics and who could only find work in a call centre and who jumped off a building to his death.

I think it diminishes him and his death and teh deaths of thousands of suicide victims to call his act an act of "violence". It may lead to the real problems and situations that lead to people taking their lives being misunderstood and not dealt with by a system of external observers in white coats in laboratories with stethoscopes viewing peoples' suicides as being acts of "violence".

I think language matters because it shapes opinions. That is why I against political spin and misclassification of human behaviour by any system that fails to empathise with the victim.

joiemecconue Fri 05-Apr-13 11:09:55

Suicide has always been thought of as violent, as self-murder, only in the past few decades has it ceased to be a crime in England (up until the 60s people were imprisoned for attempted suicides) yet we still use the phrase to 'commit suicide' exactly like a murder.

Beachcomber Fri 05-Apr-13 11:15:39

That's a good question claig - yes I suppose I do think it is a form of violence against oneself. I agree with you that it is an illness.

I think you may be seeing my use of the term violence as a value judgement. It isn't. It is more an observation of the extent of the hurt and the pain and the lengths that people will be pushed to when they are in distress.

I think looking at self-directed harm in terms of violence against oneself is important in order to try to help people.

I have a friend who used to work with suicidal/self-harming teenagers - she used to get very frustrated with a lack of recognition of the anger they felt (most of them didn't express it as anger against others but as violence against themselves).

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 11:15:53

'Suicide has always been thought of as violent'

'up until the 60s people were imprisoned for attempted suicides'

But doesn't that indicate how ridiculous that old system was.

After a person jumped from a building and after the emergency services saved their lives, were they then handcuffed and sent to prison for commiting a violent act?

Beachcomber Fri 05-Apr-13 11:22:52

Ok x posts with you claig.

I see you do think my use of the word violence is intended to diminish/victim blame. It really isn't - it is just trying to look at an issue head on and try to understand it. I don't use violent to mean bad - indeed I don't use it to mean anything other than violent.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 11:23:37

'I think you may be seeing my use of the term violence as a value judgement'

Beachcomber, I don't blame you or anyone for thinking what they do, because I believe the "system" has spread this view and has influenced all of our opinions. I believe it has even influenced some of the people in the white coats, and I think that the system is political and fosters a view of "correctness", a "political correctness" that suits the system and not the people and vulnerable suicide victims.

I think
"up until the 60s people were imprisoned for attempted suicides"

was wrong and injust and incorrect and I am glad that we changed this view politically so that no longer do such injustices happen.

I think some vestiges of that old-fashioned view as the victim being a violent perpetrator may still exist by terming suicide a "violent" act.

joiemecconue Fri 05-Apr-13 11:24:24

Yes they were, actually, with gunshot wounds and so on. It must have been terrible and I'm glad it has been decriminalised (not assisted suicide of course).

I'm not completely convinced by the romantic notion of all suicides flowing from the desperation and loneliness of untreated depression or other mental illness. People kill themselves for many reasons, sometimes out of spite or vengeance but I think as with any other seemingly senseless taking of life it is more comfortable for us to think 'they must have been ill to do that' and of course it's not always the case.

joiemecconue Fri 05-Apr-13 11:26:39

To be clear Claig, throwing ones self off a building is not a violent but throwing someone else is?

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 11:28:12

' I don't use violent to mean bad - indeed I don't use it to mean anything other than violent.'

You see I think violent is bad, and that is why it is bad to call suicide violent, since it diminishes the victims who are suffering from an illness.

The politically correct redefinition of bad to good is what Orwell warned us about in political systems whose slogans were "freedom is slavery, war is peace and ignorance is strength".

I don't like "suicide is violence" it is too close to Orwell for my liking, and it rislks viewing human behaviour through the wrong end of a prism or stethoscope.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 11:28:53

'To be clear Claig, throwing ones self off a building is not a violent but throwing someone else is?'

Yes, I think so.

Beachcomber Fri 05-Apr-13 11:34:24

OK claig - I guess we are seeing violence as being different things.

I see suicide as a violent act that a human is driven to. The reasons behind what drove a person to that act of violence will be immensely varied.

I don't see violence as automatically 'bad'. It depends on the context. For example self-defence/protecting ones loved ones can take violent forms but I don't think that is bad.

joiemecconue Fri 05-Apr-13 11:36:28

That's interesting. Is it an act of violence if someone who is mentally ill throws another human being off the building, under the delusion that they are saving them from a worse fate? Or if someone who is not mentally ill throws themselves off the building to punish their parents or spouse?

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 11:43:29

Good point, violence as a form of self-defence is not bad and is in fact justifiable and good.

But I think that there are dangers in viewing suicides as violent.

You said

'I think male violence is immensely important too in this issue that's all.'

I don't think the man who jumped from the building was a violent man.
I think that viewing suicide as violent can have politically correct consequences such as viewing male suicides as often being a result of "male violence" and therefore treating it as a problem of male violence, with the solution being one of changing and contrrolling "male violence", possibly by drugs or similar treatments. But this is wrong because the man who jumped from the building was not violent, so this approach does not serve to treat or solve the real problems but serves to politically treat suicide as a problem of "violence" which does not benefit victims but benefits the system.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 11:51:50

'Is it an act of violence if someone who is mentally ill throws another human being off the building, under the delusion that they are saving them from a worse fate?'

What fate could be worse? But yes, it was an act of violence committed on another person. However, what judgement is made on that act of violence depends on the state of mind an intention of the perpetrator.

The culpability of the peretrator depends on their state of mind.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 11:58:51

By classifying suicide and self-harm and possibly even anorexia as "violence", it expannds the definition of violence thus encompassing many more people with the result that their illnesses and tragedies will inevitably in some way be seen as a cause of their inherent "violence" and often "male violence". That way the victim will be viewed less sympathetically and their suffering will be minimised and downplayed.

But what it also does is to have the corrosive effect of minimising real violence, real violent acts and real "male violence", with teh potential danger of beginning to see these as a form of illness instaed of the vicious violent acts that they are.

Both of these politically correct consequences will lead to harm to society and people and will eventually benefit an Orwellian control system.

Beachcomber Fri 05-Apr-13 12:05:12

I disagree claig. I think we need to shine a light on violence (of all forms) in our society.

A person who self-harms has often been subjected to some form of violence (physical or psychological) and they are reacting to that with their own form of violence. I don't say this to diminish or be unsympathetic - quite the contrary, it is to appreciate the gravity of the person's situation.

Beachcomber Fri 05-Apr-13 12:07:37

And, if you like, my level of sympathy depends on who the victim of the perpetrator's violence is.

My sympathy is reserved for the victims.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 12:21:19

'I think we need to shine a light on violence (of all forms) in our society'

I agree with that. We disagree about what is violence.

I think we need to focus on real violence and not blur the boundaries and create confusion by treating suicide or anorexia as violence, because if we do that then we run the risk of losing our resolve to combat violence and we risk losing public confidence and certainty in what is an isn't violence.

I am a conservative and not a progressive, I believe that language and taboos exist for a reason. We mustn't diminish the force of our language or our taboos, because if we do we risk losing the force of those words and ideas and risk a weakening of our resolve to combat real violence and injustice.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 12:32:03

Blurring the boundary between illness and violence and vice versa has many dangers for society.

We read about the progressive consequences of treating some violent, sexual and criminal acts as a form of illness that can be treated by psychiatrists in prisons, daily in our newspapers. We read of people who have been "treated" in prison and who are said to be "rehabilitated" and who are released from prison and go on to perform the same violent and sexual crimes and assaults.

claig Fri 05-Apr-13 13:54:53

Having thought about this further, I would like to make one further analogy with that endless source of hypocrisy, pomposity and amusement known as New Labour.

I don't think that violence is necessarily the same as causing harm and is not in my mind the same as causing self-harm.

I do not think that a woman who overdosed on sleeping pills was being violent, however I do think she committed self-harm.

Where New Labour are concerned, I believe that they harmed the country but I do not think that they were violent, although many people have said that they gave us all a good kicking before they left.

MikeBuchanan Tue 09-Apr-13 15:23:56

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Blistory Tue 09-Apr-13 17:45:17

How in all seriousness can you use those stats re income tax and not see that that all they do is highlight one of the main reasons for feminism being necessary ?

Men earn more so pay more. Trust me, as a woman, I'd be happy to pay my share and see the figures at 50/50. Men don't pay the bulk of income tax because they're fine upstanding fellows helping out society. They pay more because they have the better jobs on the whole, they don't stop work to look after their children on the whole, they don't take on part time roles on the whole, they don't do the crappy menial jobs that women are prepared to take on the whole.

When are you going to accept that it's not the best statistic to prove your point as all it does is undermine it ?

And this isn't an introduction agency so perhaps you'd be better trying to contact the lady in question using another medium.

MikeBuchanan Tue 09-Apr-13 20:55:11

Good evening. You might be interested in our latest two blog posts. One concerns the radically different attitudes of the authorities towards supporting homeless men and women, the other links to a woman's blog post about a sexual assault of a young man by four older women.

Mike Buchanan

JUSTICE FOR MEN & BOYS
(and the women who love them)

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 09-Apr-13 21:08:48

Good evening Mike and how are you?

I'm interested in the picture you chose for the cover of your book. What made you go for that particular image?

MikeBuchanan Tue 09-Apr-13 21:49:41

Hi Sabrina. I've been asked that a number of times. Militant feminism has been the only form of feminism of any political consequence for 30+ years in the UK, it's an ugly and evil ideology which attacks most of the pillars of a civilised society - marriage, the nuclear family, education, government, the justice system, the education system... - so what better than an image of something ugly and evil, i.e. a vampire?

Mike Buchanan
ANTI-FEMINISM LEAGUE

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 09-Apr-13 22:15:25

Any 'pillars of society' broken down by feminism needed to be broken down in order for equality of the sexes to exist - votes for women, equal pay, sex discrimination. The list is huge.

The lives of me, my mother, my grandmother have been transformed by feminism - so, no, I don't agree that it is ugly and evil.

Your book cover, and your campaign, demonises women, not the feminist movement.

Honest question for you Mike. What do you actually hope to achieve here, telling a group of women that you think what we stand for and who we are is evil and harming men? What kind of response do you actually want? Because I can't imagine why you're posting here apart from to deliberately goad us, to what purpose I'm not sure. I mean, you don't think you can actually get one single member of this forum to agree with you or support your campaign, do you? hmm

Vadark Tue 09-Apr-13 22:54:31

"The lives of me, my mother, my grandmother have been transformed by feminism...."

You haven't fully transformed yet. Wait until things are truly equal - you'll know when you're there when you are expected to fight on the front line, do all the dangerous, risky, dirty, unsociable jobs in society, surrender your female privilege, be made to look like useless, good-for-nothing morons on the TV, lose custody of your kids like men do, go to jail for the same length of time that a man does (for the same crime), get demonised as sexual predators etc. etc. etc.

I don't think you really understand where you've been, let alone understand where you're heading.

Vadark Tue 09-Apr-13 22:56:59

"I mean, you don't think you can actually get one single member of this forum to agree with you or support your campaign, do you?"

If you love your Fathers, Sons, Brothers etc. then why not? Don't you like men or boys?

Vadark Tue 09-Apr-13 23:11:37

"They pay more because they have the better jobs on the whole"

What, like coal mining, roadworking, heavy industrial and infrastructure works, front-line soldiers or refuse collectors?

"they don't stop work to look after their children on the whole"

I know a lot of men who would like the opportunity to do that.

"they don't take on part time roles on the whole"

Is that because women take all those jobs?

"they don't do the crappy menial jobs that women are prepared to take on the whole"

Like lorry drivers? Or road sweepers? Or labourers? The number of menial jobs has doubled in the last 5 years.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2166241/Number-graduates-menial-jobs-doubles-years.html

Who do you think will get the "crappy" end of the stick here?

CheerfulYank Tue 09-Apr-13 23:17:52

I do love men and boys. Well, I love my husband and son certainly. But I have to say I am far, far more worried about my daughter who will be born next month.

So the men who are found to be the biological fathers of these children through this mandatory DNA tests, they will be forced to pay child support? Is that correct, Mike?

And what exactly will decriminalizing prostitution do?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 09-Apr-13 23:18:29

"You haven't fully transformed yet."

You're right there. Feminism isn't a done deal yet. It continues...

"Wait until things are truly equal - you'll know when you're there when you are expected to fight on the front line, do all the dangerous, risky, dirty, unsociable jobs in society, surrender your female privilege, be made to look like useless, good-for-nothing morons on the TV"

Women do plenty of dirty, front line (and low paid ) jobs - nursing, carers, cleaning, teaching, part time, etc. Many of which carry a risk of abuse, and of course, sexual harassment, just because we're women. Feminism fights traditional male/female sex roles

"lose custody of your kids like men do,"

Men lose custody of their children, largely, because they leave them. The female is generally the main caregiver to children, and the family courts, generally, go for a 'continuity of care'. Again, feminism asks that men have equal responsibility for their children - hence in the event of a split, care of the children would be more 50-50

"go to jail for the same length of time that a man does (for the same crime), get demonised as sexual predators etc. etc. etc."

Women, in general, get higher jail sentences, and are more likely to get a custodial sentence for the same crime, as men - according to Baronness Helena Kennedy Eve Was Framed. They are treated more harshly by the justice system. As for sexual offences - the vast, vast majority of victims of sexual offences are women. Men are victims, but even then, the vast majority of the perpetrators are men.

CheerfulYank Tue 09-Apr-13 23:19:37

And honestly I'm sick of this "men don't have a choice". They do. DO NOT SLEEP WITH THE WOMAN. Done.

Get it snipped or keep it zipped.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 09-Apr-13 23:20:24

Oh, welcome to Mumsnet Vadark

Hope you enjoy looking around the site.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 09-Apr-13 23:21:46

Oh, cheerfulyank - don't be silly. These men have a right to just sleep with women with no consequences, right? Oh, wait... hmm

CheerfulYank Tue 09-Apr-13 23:25:42

Oh of course, silly me! And of course they're entitled to go in condom-free as well!

Good lord. I am going to squeeze the daylights out of my husband when he gets home from work...nothing disgusts him more than men who won't look after their children and treat women like second class citizens.

Blistory Tue 09-Apr-13 23:26:51

Hiya Vardak, nice to meet your acquaintance. Thanks for your considered and measured post. Thanks for pointing out just how tough life is for men. What can we women do to help ?

Seeing as we have all the power and such.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 09-Apr-13 23:28:19

Yes, Cheerful, and if they catch anything, it's because the woman is a slut. confused

runningforthebusinheels Tue 09-Apr-13 23:31:00

I bloody love mumnset sometimes!

wine

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 09-Apr-13 23:36:13

Vadark tried to link to the Daily Hate as well - oh dear.

Anyone want to look up what the Daily Hate has to say? I don't...

CheerfulYank Tue 09-Apr-13 23:39:36

So my friend who got herpes and pregnant by some 28year old man child who came over and begged and sobbed and threatened to kill himself if she didn't abort, that was her fault I suppose. And she refused and is now raising their child entirely on her own with no support from him or anyone, and he's running around telling everyone that she won't "let him" see their DD when in reality he has never called her or tried to see the baby.

Obviously she's a nasty 'ho who tricked him into it. I'm finally starting to see the light!

hmm

Vadark Tue 09-Apr-13 23:42:40

"Women do plenty of dirty, front line (and low paid ) jobs - nursing, carers, cleaning, teaching, part time, etc. Many of which carry a risk of abuse, and of course, sexual harassment, just because we're women. Feminism fights traditional male/female sex roles"

Why are 95% of work related deaths men then?

"Men lose custody of their children, largely, because they leave them."

No. Men are more likely to be kicked out of their home and society always favours the female side of the story.

"and the family courts, generally, go for a 'continuity of care'"

but according to you, men have all the power and money, so why would the courts support the female carer (possibly supported by benefits) in favour of a male carer?

"feminism asks that men have equal responsibility for their children"

But the only "responsibility" that many men are granted is to pay for their children. Where as women actually get main custody. Feminism appears to be unfair from where I'm looking.

"Women, in general, get higher jail sentences"

for the same crime? No. Untrue. Women are treated far less harshly for the same crime. More women kill their children than men do. Vastly more. But many get away with it based on mental stability reasons. Men don't.

"As for sexual offences - the vast, vast majority of victims of sexual offences are women. Men are victims, but even then, the vast majority of the perpetrators are men."

Maybe society, people, the media, men etc. simply don't report it, or their level of acceptance is different? I think you'll find that, like domestic violence, the truth will come out in the next few years. It will be interesting. Read this, but I agree that nobody knows for certain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8022861.stm

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 09-Apr-13 23:43:23

I'm sure Mike will come back on with a really good answer fo you, Cheerful wink

Vadark Tue 09-Apr-13 23:46:17

"DO NOT SLEEP WITH THE WOMAN. Done."

But then humans can't reproduce and survive as a species. You'll have to think of something else.

"Get it snipped or keep it zipped."

I guess you, too could keep it plugged and you won't get fugged" :-)

Blistory Tue 09-Apr-13 23:50:45

Oh dear. I don't think I want to be one of those nasty women anymore. You've persuaded me with your educated, informed and well meaning posts.

Why don't you men get together and beat us over our mean, calculating little heads ? Perhaps you could show us our place in the bedroom, the classroom, the boardroom. Maybe you could abuse us, beat us, humiliate us, rape us, kill us.

Or maybe you could stop with the self pity, the bleating and whinging and open your eyes to the reality of a patriarchal society and take some fecking responsibility for your own actions and the consequences.

But thanks for moving the debate along.

Blistory Tue 09-Apr-13 23:51:57

Fugged ? Seriously ?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 09-Apr-13 23:52:22

Vadark - would you care to validate any of that mishmash you put up there?

Men suffer more work related deaths than women because more women are home looking after the children. Feminism wants to change that.

The government policy for residency after the split of the parents is "continuity of care" - feeling that the courts favour women is purely because most women are the caregivers for their children. Can you provide any evidence for "courts favouring women"? other than this? I don't think so.

Sexual crime/harassment is recognised as a gendered crime - so don't be ridiculous.

Vadark Tue 09-Apr-13 23:53:33

"These men have a right to just sleep with women with no consequences, right?"

No consequences like having no say in the decision of an abortion and then having to pay for 18 years for something he didn't want when just because one of the consenting adults lied about being on the pill?

Or perhaps no consequence like being kicked out of the house when the kid is 2 years old by someone who has met another man or decided to make accusations that the courts will act upon and destroy the Father's life?

Or maybe no consequence like the child actually being someone else's but then being mentally scarred when he finds out later?

Hmmm, I think every time a man sleeps with a woman, he should be careful.

Blistory Tue 09-Apr-13 23:56:14

Hey, we agree ! Men should be careful, careful to get consent, careful to put a condom on, careful to look after a life they created, careful they don't pass on any nasty little diseases.

Vadark Tue 09-Apr-13 23:56:47

"...nothing disgusts him more than men who won't look after their children and treat women like second class citizens."

Same here. We should all treat each other equally. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be on everyone's agenda.

NormaSpoonOeufEggcher Tue 09-Apr-13 23:58:36

Is this some kind of Mike / Vardark tag team?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 09-Apr-13 23:58:38

I think every time a man sleeps with a woman, he should be careful.

YY to that! I think he might be getting it!

Vadark Tue 09-Apr-13 23:59:16

"Thanks for pointing out just how tough life is for men. What can we women do to help ?
"

Yes, life is pretty tough on men, but unfortunately you don't recognise this because it doesn't affect you. I guess if you really wanted to help then you could start by listening.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 00:02:01

I think maybe a Daily-Misogynist reader has been brought here...

It's a shame, isn't it? They try so hard.

Blistory Wed 10-Apr-13 00:02:07

Now you've gone and ruined the consensus we appeared to have reached. How disappointing yet predictable.

NormaSpoonOeufEggcher Wed 10-Apr-13 00:03:21

You know Vadark, my mum and dad started having sex in the '60s. I didn't necessarily Want to know this, but I was told. They realised that the any time they had sex it was a possibilty, no matter what the contraception used, that a child would be conceived. They agreed that it was both of their responsibilities to deal with that if it occurred, and that they would be both responsible for any life they created together.

Now, if my parents understood this in the '60s, why can the men of today not understand this? Why are you asking for them to be abdicated of any responsibility?

NormaSpoonOeufEggcher Wed 10-Apr-13 00:04:28

But how are we women making it tough on men?

Blistory Wed 10-Apr-13 00:06:32

Come on Norma. We steal their jobs, we steal their children, we kill their children, we destroy their pride and masculinity.

We also appear to mock the ones who deserve it. Oops.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:08:25

So my friend who got herpes and pregnant by some 28year old man"

That's her fault as much as his, yes.

"...sobbed and threatened to kill himself if she didn't abort, that was her fault I suppose."

Well, you see, a woman has a choice and a man doesn't. If a woman chooses to abort, society sees her in a sensative light with no shame. Where as a man is deemed to be a deadbeat! I'm not wrong.

"And she refused and is now raising their child entirely on her own with no support from him or anyone,"

But it was HER choice to have the accident baby.

"and he's running around telling everyone that she won't "let him" see their DD when in reality he has never called her or tried to see the baby."

It sounds about right, though, doesn't it - that she won't alow him to see the baby. I mean, that is what happens isn't it!

"Obviously she's a nasty 'ho who tricked him into it."

I guess everybody knows she made a mistake. But it was 50% HER mistake and 100% HER choice. What choices did he have?

"I'm finally starting to see the light!
"
So are many men.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 00:09:19

We steal their children we tricked them into having anyway Am I right? Biatches.

Twentytotwo Wed 10-Apr-13 00:12:11

I think you should try celibacy. It would set such a powerful example.

Blistory Wed 10-Apr-13 00:12:13

Vadark, as illuminating as it's been, I actually don't enjoy reading your misguided, bitter posts so time to say thank you but goodbye. Perhaps you've taken on Mike's debating style which is no style at all but simply an outpouring of bitterness and misinformation.

Doesn't really demonstrate a willingness to engage, does it ?

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:14:24

"Oh dear. I don't think I want to be one of those nasty women anymore."

There's nothing stopping you changing.

"You've persuaded me with your educated, informed and well meaning posts."

Great.

"Why don't you men get together and beat us over our mean, calculating little heads ? Perhaps you could show us our place in the bedroom, the classroom, the boardroom. Maybe you could abuse us, beat us, humiliate us, rape us, kill us."

No. I don't want that. I want equality, just like you.

"Or maybe you could stop with the self pity, the bleating and whinging and open your eyes to the reality of a patriarchal society and take some fecking responsibility for your own actions and the consequences."

No self pity required. Just a long, laborious edification task ahead. And most men do indeed provide and protect and love and care and would like to share responsibility.
It sounds like you are stereotyping.

CheerfulYank Wed 10-Apr-13 00:17:27

If he called her and asked if he could come over and see his child, she would say yes. He has never done.

I would never have an abortion. Ever. Unless our lives were in danger. I'm not saying this is right for all women but it certainly is for me. I couldn't face it. Nor can I take hormonal birth control. Everyone I've ever had sex with has been aware of these things.

CheerfulYank Wed 10-Apr-13 00:20:33

Why is him giving her herpes her fault? He knew he had them, she didn't.

Oh...and I suppose my rapist didn't know that I wouldn't abort. Luckily I didn't get pregnant by him.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 00:21:33

Hey Valdark hmm why don't you just reverse the post you just wrote? And see how ridiculous it is? And ask yourself whether women don't need to be looked after like that? Perhaps, just perhaps, women would like to be seen as humans of equal status to men?

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:23:36

"Vadark - would you care to validate any of that mishmash you put up there?"

No problem.

"Men suffer more work related deaths than women because more women are home looking after the children. Feminism wants to change that."

Where would you rather be then? With the 95% of work-related deaths group?

"The government policy for residency after the split of the parents is "continuity of care" - feeling that the courts favour women is purely because most women are the caregivers for their children. Can you provide any evidence for "courts favouring women"? other than this? I don't think so."

There is lots of evidence to suggest that courts favour women against men. There are a million links. I'll give you one to read, but they're all the same conclusion - i.e. the family justice system favours women.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/9350113/Family-justice-can-favour-mothers-and-demoralise-fathers.html

"Sexual crime/harassment is recognised as a gendered crime - so don't be ridiculous."

So women can't sexually harass a man? Ridiculous? I think not.

NormaSpoonOeufEggcher Wed 10-Apr-13 00:25:52

OK - so Vadark wants to take away women's autonomy over their own bodies. That's a surprise.

Oh, hang on a minute...

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 10-Apr-13 00:28:43

Choice 1: do or don't have sex
Choice 2: do or don't use contraception you have applied to/for yourself
Choice 3: do or don't take drugs or undergo a surgical procedure

1 and 2 - men can apply at will.
And if you don't know that 3 cannot, will not and should not ever be your decision because, y'know, it isn't your body, you really should have stopped at 1 and decided not to have sex.

NormaSpoonOeufEggcher Wed 10-Apr-13 00:29:20

Erm your evidence article seems to be in the letters page from the telegraph. Could you link to something a bit more, well, statistical or factual that shows that the courts are favouring women rather than ensuring continuity of care?

NormaSpoonOeufEggcher Wed 10-Apr-13 00:32:31

Valdark:- "There is lots of evidence to suggest that courts favour women against men. There are a million links. I'll give you one to read, but they're all the same conclusion - i.e. the family justice system favours women.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/9350113/Family-justice-can-favour-mothers-and-demoralise-fathers.html"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/9350113/Family-justice-can-favour-mothers-and-demoralise-fathers.html

I am sorry, but EVIDENCE = TELEGRAPH LETTERS PAGE has made my evening and so I am off to bed with a smile on my face.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:32:41

"Hey, we agree ! Men should be careful, careful to get consent"

And do you think women should get consent before they screw a guy for 18 years worth of child support?

"careful to put a condom on"

Agree. But what about the women who WANT to be single Mothers and get state benefits and DON'T want him to put a condom on?

"careful to look after a life they created"

Only if they BOTH agree they WANT to. If the woman wants an abortion, well, that's fine isn't it, even if he doesn't. But, yes, she carries it, so she gets all the choices. He gets the crappy end of the stick. But you don't care and I don't suppose you ever will.

"careful they don't pass on any nasty little diseases"

Strange, I thought women could pass on these little nasties. Are you telling me that only men pass them on? Perhaps you should google the stats.

NormaSpoonOeufEggcher Wed 10-Apr-13 00:34:20

It's like the bingo of derailment 101 on here.

Night night all

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:34:54

"Why are you asking for them to be abdicated of any responsibility?"

Point me to where I have said this?

CheerfulYank Wed 10-Apr-13 00:35:56

Um...I'm not a man and don't personally have a penis. But if some woman insisted I not wear a condom I'm pretty sure I'd be smart enough not to have sex with her.

As I said before, every person I had sex with (besides the rape) knew me well enough to know that I cannot take birth control and would not abort. Is that "consent" enough for you?

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:37:40

"Doesn't really demonstrate a willingness to engage, does it ?"

I will engage, but will you listen? Probably not. Instead, I predict shaming tactics and other off-topic nonsense.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 00:40:06

I just thought this post of Doctrine should be repeated here - as he hasn't addressed it:

"Choice 1: do or don't have sex
Choice 2: do or don't use contraception you have applied to/for yourself
Choice 3: do or don't take drugs or undergo a surgical procedure

1 and 2 - men can apply at will.
And if you don't know that 3 cannot, will not and should not ever be your decision because, y'know, it isn't your body, you really should have stopped at 1 and decided not to have sex."

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:40:12

"Oh...and I suppose my rapist didn't know that I wouldn't abort."

I truly understand your bitterness. This is very bad and I'm extremely sorry to read this line.

Please understand that the vast majority of men are not like that.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 00:41:48

Would the majority of men recognise this?

"Choice 1: do or don't have sex
Choice 2: do or don't use contraception you have applied to/for yourself
Choice 3: do or don't take drugs or undergo a surgical procedure

1 and 2 - men can apply at will.
And if you don't know that 3 cannot, will not and should not ever be your decision because, y'know, it isn't your body, you really should have stopped at 1 and decided not to have sex."

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:42:12

"OK - so Vadark wants to take away women's autonomy over their own bodies. That's a surprise.

Oh, hang on a minute..."

Nope, you're wrong. I just want equality. Do you?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 00:44:08

Vadark wants equality. Who believes him?

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:44:18

"EVIDENCE = TELEGRAPH LETTERS PAGE"

What real people think and feel is evidence, yes. And there is plenty of it.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 00:45:13

I don't believe Vadark wants equality. Does anyone?

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:46:03

"Um...I'm not a man and don't personally have a penis. But if some woman insisted I not wear a condom I'm pretty sure I'd be smart enough not to have sex with her."

After 10 pints of beer and after having been told she was on the pill, or perhaps after they'd been together for a while??? Come on.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 00:46:53

Vadark - you don't seem to be able to answer Doctrine's post ?

Blistory Wed 10-Apr-13 00:46:59

You understand her bitterness ? How fucking humane of you. How about recognising her generosity in sharing that information in an attempt to open your eyes ? How about recognising that she knows that not all men are rapists , only rapists are ? Sorry, Cheerful to talk about you but that one rankled.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:48:43

"As I said before, every person I had sex with (besides the rape) knew me well enough to know that I cannot take birth control and would not abort. Is that "consent" enough for you?"

For me, yes. For many men, unfortunately not. I guess men are vunerable in these cases and could be easily led. But once they're up the path, their choices diminish to nothing and they get taken advantage of. Who recognises them when they're in that situation?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 00:49:45

telegraphs letters page is obviously the absolute truth isn't it?

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:51:18

"Vadark wants equality. Who believes him?"

Show me one post where I've said men should get more than women. Show me.

Give me a reason why people should think I don't want equality.

CheerfulYank Wed 10-Apr-13 00:51:28

Oh, I see. Men are vulnerable and can be easily led.

And here I was thinking they are just as capable of rational thought as I am.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 00:52:22

For me, yes. For many men, unfortunately not. I guess men are vunerable in these cases and could be easily led. But once they're up the path, their choices diminish to nothing and they get taken advantage of. Who recognises them when they're in that situation?

Oh come on - it's the women who are vulnerable, taken advantage of, or even raped. And them who are left with the consequences of being called a slut, loose or being pregnant.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:54:44

"Choice 1: do or don't have sex
Choice 2: do or don't use contraception you have applied to/for yourself
Choice 3: do or don't take drugs or undergo a surgical procedure

1 and 2 - men can apply at will.
And if you don't know that 3 cannot, will not and should not ever be your decision because, y'know, it isn't your body, you really should have stopped at 1 and decided not to have sex."

All these choices apply to women too. So why do so many women choose to have sex and then deprive Father's of their rights? Perhaps women should learn to plug it up??? Is that what you'd say to a man? Probably.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 00:55:11

"Vadark wants equality. Who believes him?"

Show me one post where I've said men should get more than women. Show me.

Er... oh look, all your posts here tonight. Or do I have to c&p them all?

CheerfulYank Wed 10-Apr-13 00:56:57

I honestly do not know a single man who has been "deprived of his rights". How many women do I know raising children by men who promised they'd be around, promised they'd be good fathers, promised they'd support them, and then did none of it? A LOT.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:58:07

"You understand her bitterness ? How fucking humane of you. How about recognising her generosity in sharing that information in an attempt to open your eyes ? How about recognising that she knows that not all men are rapists , only rapists are ? Sorry, Cheerful to talk about you but that one rankled."

Hmmm, you are resorting to tactics that show you are frustrated and crumbling. Talk about facts please. I spoke in recognition of an appalling crime and you turn it around on me. You are as transparent as glass.

CheerfulYank Wed 10-Apr-13 00:58:25

Vadark I have had choices 1&2 taken from me, brutally. So no, those choices do NOT always apply to women as well.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 00:58:48

All these choices apply to women too. So why do so many women choose to have sex and then deprive Father's of their rights? Perhaps women should learn to plug it up??? Is that what you'd say to a man? Probably.

The point is that society says that it is all the woman's problem. Single mothers being scapegoated by the government as the downfall of society?
Happens all the time. And then you have the cheek to come on here and moan about the rights of fathers.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 00:59:41

"Oh, I see. Men are vulnerable and can be easily led.

And here I was thinking they are just as capable of rational thought as I am."

All humans are vulnerable. Didn't you know?

Blistory Wed 10-Apr-13 01:01:48

Don't tell me what to do. You demand facts but produce none of your own. You claim to want equality but don't demonstrate it. You post confused and incoherent posts yet expect engagement. I want no further part in this farce.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 01:02:27

"Vadark I have had choices 1&2 taken from me, brutally. So no, those choices do NOT always apply to women as well."

I understand and genuinely feel for you as a fellow human being. It is awful and I can't express how angry this makes me feel that someone could do this to you. I have no time to make you believe this.

But not all men are like this and you need to remember that.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 01:04:16

"Don't tell me what to do. You demand facts but produce none of your own. You claim to want equality but don't demonstrate it. You post confused and incoherent posts yet expect engagement. I want no further part in this farce."

Goodbye.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 01:05:46

"And then you have the cheek to come on here and moan about the rights of fathers."

And people don't come on here and moan about the rights of mothers?

Goodbye everyone. Nice talking.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 01:09:12

Valdark - you came on here saying women had more rights than men, did you not?

Were you forgetting that men hold 99% of men's wealth and earn 70% of it's income? That 80% of Board positions int he Uk are held by men? That only 146 out of 650 MP's are women? That 1 in 4 women are seriously sexually assaulted in their lifetime?

You are obviously mistaken if you think that women hold all the cards.

CheerfulYank Wed 10-Apr-13 01:09:59

Sorry, I missed that part about me! Blistory it's okay for you to talk about it, I don't mind. I didn't do anything wrong and I'm not ashamed.

Vadark I don't know if bitter is exactly the word I'd use. Am I sad about what happened? Of course. Do I dread explaining every time I go in for an exam that if I freeze up or start to cry it's all right, I'm just having a flashback and they should press on? Definitely.

But of course I realize that most men are not like him. I was raised by a wonderful man and am married to one now. And hopefully DS will be one too.

You may know some women who are out to get pregnant and screw men out of their money, etc. I've never met one personally but I accept they may exist.

But if I can accept that the majority of men are not the type to force themselves on a sobbing, bleeding 19 year old, surely you can accept that the majority of women are not money grubbing semen-stealers?

olgaga Wed 10-Apr-13 01:10:30

Just wanted to interrupt to pick up this point about Mike's evident annoyance with regard to the apparent disparity in personal taxation contributed by men and women.

The facts are:

More women than men earn under £20,000pa.
Vastly more men than women earn £30-500,000pa.

Take a look at the infogram here - Number of taxpayers by gender and income bracket. To work the infogram, click in the circle beside the salary brackets. Alternatively you can look at the figures the infogram is based on in table 3.11 on page 16 of the Personal Incomes Statistics 2010-11 (HMRC) here.

At the same time, women?s unpaid labour is worth tens of billions of pounds to the economy every year ? unpaid carers (the majority of whom are women) contribute billions every year.

olgaga Wed 10-Apr-13 01:12:43

Sabrina, well said. Men run the bloody world, and still they moan.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 10-Apr-13 01:15:00

Cheerful flowers

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 01:26:09

And of course, that 2 women per week are killed by their partners/ex partners per week.

Start talking about countries like South Africa and the figures are far higher...

CheerfulYank Wed 10-Apr-13 01:38:07

Thanks Doctrine. smile

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 15:37:20

'Men suffer more work related deaths than women because more women are home looking after the children. Feminism wants to change that.'

Which part is feminism trying to change? Cos I very much doubt women will be queuing up to be in the 'more work related deaths' category.

Or is it the 'more women are home looking after the children' part, cos I doubt the very many women who actively want to stay at home and bring up their kids will thank you for it.

Fail.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 15:56:28

Feminism is trying to challenge the defined sex roles in society which say the woman stays home with the children. It's not trying to take the choice away from anybody - I'm a sahm by choice. But it should be my choice not just the default position because I'm a woman.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 16:04:46

I think you do have the choice. I had the choice.

Missing your point

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 16:07:39

Yes, I thought you might.

SigmundFraude - feminism has little time for gender-stereotyped jobs. This means women being free from any obstacle which may prevent her from taking up a job, even one traditionally done by men and seen as dangerous, and men being free from any obstacle which may prevent him from staying at home. Not just equal employment laws, equal pay etc etc, but also the removal of societal expectations and any criticisms of a) career choice or b) ability to perform in a given career based solely on gender.

This means that any man or woman who works in those dangerous jobs, does so completely freely, and this would also be the case for any parent staying at home; no being told they won't fit in, or aren't good enough or strong enough or nurturing enough because of their gender.

That is what feminism is trying to change - the expectation that someone's genitalia is an indicator of their ability to do any job, including SAH parenting. How could you ask for a more equal situation than that?

On another track: What baffles me about all these MRA is the idea that the problems men are having are caused by women.

Yes, there are many areas where men may feel disadvantaged, such as being mocked for being a SAHP, or not getting mental health support. But it's not women causing these problems, it's the other men who are in charge. We wish we did, but we just don't have any kind of power to disadvantage men in any way. And so we also lack the power to help men. We barely have the power to help ourselves. Surely it's not too much to ask that if men have problems with way society is set up, they should change it themselves? Why on earth do you expect women to do it?

Feminism recognises that the patriarchy is harmful to men as well as women. Men are expected to be good earners, to be strong - both mentally and physically, never ask for help etc etc. Feminism would change this too, and allow men and women to just be who they are and do what they're best at.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 16:57:13

'Yes, I thought you might.'

Because you don't actually have one.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 17:03:55

The point was (for the hard of understanding) that women shouldn't necessarily be the ones to do the childcare purely by default, just because they are women.

Great post Annie.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 17:08:41

'The point was (for the hard of understanding) that women shouldn't necessarily be the ones to do the childcare purely by default, just because they are women.'

They aren't. Which backwards circles do you mix in? I know plenty of sahm/working mums/sahd/working dads.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 17:17:25

I know plenty of sahm/working mums/sahd/working dads.

Because of feminism challenging traditional male/female roles.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 17:53:19

Yeah. Feminism. Curer of all ills. Answer to all wrongs. Demoniser of all men. Excuser of all women.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 17:54:59

"Valdark - you came on here saying women had more rights than men, did you not?"

Yes, and more privilege and more choices and a safer, more protected life in general. Not exposed to the danger etc.

"Were you forgetting that men hold 99% of men's wealth"

I think that has something to do with the fact that men have worked far longer hours and do far more dangerous, risky jobs. Welth goes with the territory. You're also forgetting that if a woman is in marital status with a man, she gets half of that by default. If se devorces an has kids, she gets most.

"and earn 70% of it's income?"

ditto.

"That 80% of Board positions int he Uk are held by men?"

Do you want quotas for board room positions then? I presume, based on feminist equality theory, that you would also like quotas for all the crappy, dangerous jobs too?

"That only 146 out of 650 MP's are women?"

What is to stop YOU and your fellow females becoming MPs? Is it that you aren't interested, or don't have the qualifications, or perhaps you made other choices in life? Tell me where the blockages are?

"That 1 in 4 women are seriously sexually assaulted in their lifetime? "

I don't believe you. I have known hundreds of women and can't recall many "serious" sexual assaults. I suspect the stats have been skewed based on interpretation.

"You are obviously mistaken if you think that women hold all the cards."

Women hold a lot of power just as they are. What power don't you have that I do? Tell me.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 17:56:52

"Vadark I don't know if bitter is exactly the word I'd use. Am I sad about what happened? Of course. Do I dread explaining every time I go in for an exam that if I freeze up or start to cry it's all right, I'm just having a flashback and they should press on? Definitely.

But of course I realize that most men are not like him. I was raised by a wonderful man and am married to one now. And hopefully DS will be one too.

You may know some women who are out to get pregnant and screw men out of their money, etc. I've never met one personally but I accept they may exist.

But if I can accept that the majority of men are not the type to force themselves on a sobbing, bleeding 19 year old, surely you can accept that the majority of women are not money grubbing semen-stealers?"

I agree with everything you said here.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 17:59:11

"More women than men earn under £20,000pa.
Vastly more men than women earn £30-500,000pa."

Men have fewer choices of lifestyle, are expected to do the dirty, dangerous jobs and work longer hours. They also have less time off sick.

It all makes sense to me.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 18:01:31

"well said. Men run the bloody world, and still they moan."

Correct, men and their spilt blood have got humanity to where we are.

You moan when you think you don't have equality. Do you expect men not to moan just because they want equality?

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 18:03:11

"And of course, that 2 women per week are killed by their partners/ex partners per week.

Start talking about countries like South Africa and the figures are far higher..."

Do you rate women or children more important. Shall we talk about how many Mothers kill their children? Care to look that one up?

I'd like to ask you, Vadark, what power or privilege don't you have that I do?

Are men being forced to do all these "dangerous" jobs? And I think you'll find that in the same way as traditionally caring jobs, the shitty dangerous jobs don't earn much money.

So there's a slight flaw in your argument that men earn more because they do these jobs you keep banging on about.

Men work longer hours because childcare is not seen as their responsibility.

SAHMs who get half their partner's assets on divorce because they have enabled their ex husband's career. Do you think these high-earning men could do it without someone at home looking after the kid when they're sick and collecting them from school? He got to that position because of a partnership with his spouse. And the reverse is also usually true of high-earning women. You won't find many single parents running boardrooms.

I won't even begin to go into why women aren't fairly represented in parliament and on executive boards, because I have a feeling you'll tell me that Old Boys Clubs and active discrimination against women don't exist.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 18:24:46

"feminism has little time for gender-stereotyped jobs. This means women being free from any obstacle which may prevent her from taking up a job, even one traditionally done by men and seen as dangerous, and men being free from any obstacle which may prevent him from staying at home. Not just equal employment laws, equal pay etc etc, but also the removal of societal expectations and any criticisms of a) career choice or b) ability to perform in a given career based solely on gender.

This means that any man or woman who works in those dangerous jobs, does so completely freely, and this would also be the case for any parent staying at home; no being told they won't fit in, or aren't good enough or strong enough or nurturing enough because of their gender.

That is what feminism is trying to change - the expectation that someone's genitalia is an indicator of their ability to do any job, including SAH parenting. How could you ask for a more equal situation than that? "

Great, agree 100%. Now show me some evidence to suggest that as much effort is being placed on getting women into dirty, dangerous jobs as there is in board quotas.

"On another track: What baffles me about all these MRA is the idea that the problems men are having are caused by women."

Most MRAs don't say that. I reckon they just want some equality in today's unbalance. Perhaps a bit of extra money spent on male cancers would do the trick, or perhaps attempts to tackle male suicide rates, or maybe some media attention on male domestic violence, or to see the Government pay attention to male homelessness issues, or extra measures to enforce offcom to place policies that protect men from media male-bashing and besmirching etc. etc.

"Yes, there are many areas where men may feel disadvantaged, such as being mocked for being a SAHP, or not getting mental health support. But it's not women causing these problems, it's the other men who are in charge."

Yes and no. There are white knights out there who are programmed to protect women at the expense of men. The evidence is everywhere to suggest that. I protect women, but I protect men too. White knight syndrome is bred and indoctrinated into men when they were boys. I guess the male species has always been the natural protector at their own expense. But women allow this to happen. I guess you can't blame them. But if they were really intelligent and truly wanted equality then why don't they help promote true equality?

"We wish we did, but we just don't have any kind of power to disadvantage men in any way"

Other than to send them off to war to get killed while they protect you? Or fuel the modern-day agenda which makes them look like fools on TV adverts? I can go to any end of the spectrum of male disadvantage.

"And so we also lack the power to help men"

Nonsense, you simply choose not to.

"We barely have the power to help ourselves."

Trust me, you're doing ok. It's men who fight each other and don't help themselves. But the inequalities in today's society is seeing them wake up. I guess in a funny kind of way, perhaps you are helping!

"Surely it's not too much to ask that if men have problems with way society is set up, they should change it themselves? Why on earth do you expect women to do it?"

We should ALL do it. Is there a reason why you wouldn't want to contribute to tue equality?

"Feminism recognises that the patriarchy is harmful to men as well as women"

Are you talking about the patriarchy that has fought and died to get humanity to where it is?

"Men are expected to be good earners, to be strong - both mentally and physically, never ask for help etc etc."

I agree, and it isn't always a good thing in the long term.

"Feminism would change this too, and allow men and women to just be who they are and do what they're best at."

What has feminism done for boys, specifically?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 18:49:27

Vadarks's diatribes are basically agreeing that women are disadvantaged in both wealth/earnings and power - and interestingly, he then falls back on the old "well what are you wimmin doing about being mp's then?"

The fact is that if the playing field was level you would expect the split to be roughly 50-50. Oh, and then that would mean a more equal distribution of the wealth and a higher proportion of taxes would be paid by women, so Mr Buchanan would be happy too. Or would he??

<gasp> Maybe Mr Buchanan would just like to keep women in their place?

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 18:52:06

"I'd like to ask you, Vadark, what power or privilege don't you have that I do? "

Did you really have to ask. There are just soooo many.

http://mensresistance.wordpress.com/female-privilege-checklist/

"Are men being forced to do all these "dangerous" jobs?"

I don't see any women offering.

"And I think you'll find that in the same way as traditionally caring jobs, the shitty dangerous jobs don't earn much money. "

Wrong. Have you never heard of the term "Danger money". It goes hand-in-hand with men accounting for 95% of work-related deaths.

"So there's a slight flaw in your argument that men earn more because they do these jobs you keep banging on about."

You've got it wrong. Go check.

"Men work longer hours because childcare is not seen as their responsibility."

Men get little choice, unlike women who get every choice, and then usually choose what suits them best.

"Do you think these high-earning men could do it without someone at home looking after the kid when they're sick and collecting them from school? He got to that position because of a partnership with his spouse. And the reverse is also usually true of high-earning women. You won't find many single parents running boardrooms."

100% agree. But which path would you choose in reality? Which path DID you choose? You could have gone down ANY path. What prevented you? Was it desire, qualifications, ambition? What choices do men have that women don't?

"I won't even begin to go into why women aren't fairly represented in parliament and on executive boards, because I have a feeling you'll tell me that Old Boys Clubs and active discrimination against women don't exist."

No, I'm more likely to tell you that most girls aren't interested, or get the right qualifications, or train to be an MP. Or it might be that they choose to have that child that they always wanted and stay at home. Tell me what stops them from being like Maggie, for example, or Harriet H.? Go on, tell me. And show me evidence of a modern-day politician who actually tries to STOP women from climbing the ladder if they're good enough.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 18:52:18

And in another of Vadark's many diatribes, he is blaming women for sending men off to war. It's the men (you know, the ones with all the power) sending other men off to war.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 19:05:15

"Vadarks's diatribes are basically agreeing that women are disadvantaged in both wealth/earnings and power"

I don't think women are disadvantaged in general. They own half of the wealth if they are married because the law writes it like that. And women have plenty of power in terms of priviliges and protection.

"- and interestingly, he then falls back on the old "well what are you wimmin doing about being mp's then?" "

Well, what ARE you doing about it other than slagging off men and fighting for quotas in cherry-picked areas?

"The fact is that if the playing field was level you would expect the split to be roughly 50-50. Oh, and then that would mean a more equal distribution of the wealth and a higher proportion of taxes would be paid by women, so Mr Buchanan would be happy too. Or would he??

<gasp> Maybe Mr Buchanan would just like to keep women in their place?"

I think you'll find that Mr Buchanan is totally in favour of true equality where possible. Men have gone out of their way in the past to build the fabric of society and all the infrastructure that goes alongside. They have put their lives in danger, even sacrificed themselves for their families, knowing that they have certain attributes of physical strength that women don't have. They did this to help and to progress humanity.
We have moved into a more civilised society these days and many men are now questioning the way feminism has conveniently disregarded the interests of men and boys. It comes across as completely selfish that very few of you recognise that men and boys have issues that affect them. It is also staggering that many of you resort to shaming tactics and insults. How do you think that comes across to the reader? Do you think it impresses them and gets them on your side?

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 19:07:09

"And in another of Vadark's many diatribes, he is blaming women for sending men off to war. It's the men (you know, the ones with all the power) sending other men off to war."

So show me all the Mothers of the frontline soldiers killed in WW1 and 2 who prevented their Sons from going. Give me a break.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 10-Apr-13 19:09:44

"And show me evidence of a modern day politician who actually tries to stop a woman from climbing the ladder if she's good enough."

Do you see any problem with that phrasing, vadark? Try replacing "woman" with "Jewish man" or "black man" or "gay man" and see if that helps you spot it.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 19:10:01

"That 1 in 4 women are seriously sexually assaulted in their lifetime? "

I don't believe you. I have known hundreds of women and can't recall many "serious" sexual assaults. I suspect the stats have been skewed based on interpretation.

Yes, I'm not surprised none of them have told you considering your ravings on this board. We don't wear signs.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 19:11:33

So show me all the Mothers of the frontline soldiers killed in WW1 and 2 who prevented their Sons from going. Give me a break.

Oh for god's sake.

Men send other men off to war - and it's the women's fault for not stopping them? You are hilarious today.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 19:15:40

So now do you see why, potentially, more and more men in today's up-and-coming generation could choose to vote for Mike?

They are sick of the double-standards and the complete, blatant disregard and non-recognition of the things that men do do to contribute to society. They are sick of the media indoctrination whereby men are portrayed as buffoons, or smelly, lazy idiots. They are sick of the way society ignores domestic violence against men. And they are sick of the shear lack of privilege they get, whether it be less money spent on health or the general expectation that their lives are disposable or perhaps even that ladies always go first or get off of a sinking ship first.

And all this plus thousands more while feminists moan about how bad they have it.

That's why you should listen to Mike. You owe it to your Sons, at least.

I haven't even scratched the surface yet.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 19:18:58

"Men send other men off to war - and it's the women's fault for not stopping them? You are hilarious today."

It's everyone's fault for not stopping them. I don't agree with war but unfortunately it appears to be part of life. In the end, whatever you say and however much you try to skirt around the fact, it is MEN who put themselves up to protect YOU while you stay safe.

Men get the crappy end of the stick as usual. We are ALL to blame for that including YOU.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 10-Apr-13 19:20:23

well majority of the police, policy makers, and media are men....

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 19:20:27

"Men send other men off to war - and it's the women's fault for not stopping them? You are hilarious today."

Oh, and I nearly forgot. So when all these quotas see women in power, will these women send women off to war?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 19:21:01

Vadark - No I don't understand how anyone other than a tiresome mra or a misgynist would vote for him. You think you've showered us with some sort of golden wisdom and we all see things your way? I don't think so. I find your posts laughable, unfounded and contradictory.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 19:21:43

"well majority of the police, policy makers, and media are men...."

And they are doing a fine job of protecting you and providing you with privilige ate the expense of men.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 10-Apr-13 19:23:21

what are you worried you'll end up a second class citizen? Fair play then, most women and minorities can tell you it's shit.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 19:23:56

"Vadark - No I don't understand how anyone other than a tiresome mra or a misgynist would vote for him. You think you've showered us with some sort of golden wisdom and we all see things your way? I don't think so. I find your posts laughable, unfounded and contradictory."

You don't have to be a mysoginist to want to vote for equality. I wonder if your Sons would find my posts laughable?

Shaming tactics. Yawn.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 10-Apr-13 19:24:35

what privilege? you're not very bright are you? haven't seen a clever mra though.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 19:24:54

Oh, and I nearly forgot. So when all these quotas see women in power, will these women send women off to war?

You see - that's kind of nonsensical. A government will deploy it's army if needed (hopefully in a less trigger happy way than in recent years).

That government consists of men and women.

That army consists of men and women. Women have been fighting to be in the front line.

To talk of women sending men off to war is just a little bit silly.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 19:25:48

"what are you worried you'll end up a second class citizen? Fair play then, most women and minorities can tell you it's shit."

I wish I had as much protection, rights and privilege as you.

Name one thing I can do that you can't.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 19:27:58

"Women have been fighting to be in the front line."

How many women would actually be up for that do you think? Would you? I wouldn't. I don't like fighting.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 19:28:56

I wonder if your Sons would find my posts laughable

I would think most men and women would find your posts laughable.

Except Mike. Mike would like you.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 10-Apr-13 19:30:07

we live in a patriarchy and unfortunately most people don't see it. For me the great thing about mras is they draw attention to it in a way feminism never will. Because as soon as a man says it's not fair it totally puts it all in to perspective. Like when white people complain about black history month or a 2 year throws a tantrum. It's just so ridiculous.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 19:32:22

How many women would actually be up for that do you think? Would you? I wouldn't. I don't like fighting.

Whaaaat? <arf> at the hypocrisy. So you're criticising women for not doing something that you don't want to do?

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 19:36:48

YY Satsuki. MRAs sound like spoilt children stamping their feet because they can't have all the sweeties.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 19:37:14

Maybe let's not give this one the attention he craves?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 19:38:27

You're probs right, running.

biscuit to the MRAs.

StickEmUpPunk Wed 10-Apr-13 19:40:17

What a whiner. Whine whine whine whine whine .... Ad infinitum.
Vadark, i mean.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 10-Apr-13 19:43:43

you're both right of course, I'll just give one last biscuit to see if that soothes his tantrum.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 10-Apr-13 19:45:47

Right, who's coming to the pub? My round.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 10-Apr-13 19:47:56

bit far for me doctine but have a cider with salt and vinegar chips for me grin

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 19:47:56

Mine's a wine doctrine

grin

Sunnywithshowers Wed 10-Apr-13 19:53:13

wine would be lovely, thank you.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 21:33:59

I don't find Vadark's posts laughable, I agree with him. For feminists to say they represent women is laughable. They don't represent any women I know.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 21:36:11

"I would think most men and women would find your posts laughable."

I can't see why fighting for equality is laughable. From what you just said, Feminism must be laughable.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 10-Apr-13 21:38:20

do you? even the bit where he says that the sexual assault statistics are lies? please let me know so I can avoid you as a troll in the future

CoalDustWoman Wed 10-Apr-13 21:41:59

This thread certainly shows why we need feminism...

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 21:42:30

"we live in a patriarchy"

Are the members of this so-called patriarchy contributing to society in any way. What have they done? What do they do? What exactly is a patriarchy? Is it a name for those who have power and control? Tell me what power and control you don't have in today's society. Tell me why you'd prefer to be a member of the patriarchy. Tell me what you wouldn't like.

"For me the great thing about mras is they draw attention to it in a way feminism never will"

I suppose they have alot to draw attention to.

"Because as soon as a man says it's not fair it totally puts it all in to perspective"

Who does the media listen to most, MRAs or feminists? Who gets more media attention regarding rights?

Sunnywithshowers Wed 10-Apr-13 21:48:48
Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 21:50:27

"Whaaaat? <arf> at the hypocrisy. So you're criticising women for not doing something that you don't want to do?"

No hypocrisy. I don't think anyone should fight and be killed - men or women. It's stupid. We should all be friends. The problem is that humanity has bred selfishness and people are greedy and selfish. Also, humans tend to group themselves and unfortunately males and females also segregate themselves, just as we are doing right here on this forum.

The problem is that due to greed and consequential competition, the result is often war and bloodshed. If only women existed in the world i can guarantee you that there would still be wars and bloodshed. But while you have men around, conveniently for you, they will do the work.

Who do you think is more selfish?

Sunnywithshowers Wed 10-Apr-13 21:54:21

I agree that war is stupid and that too many lives have been lost - mainly men. I don't think a women only world would be free of conflict.

But for the most part it's powerful men starting wars to defend their own interests - how is it women's fault that men are fighting (and dying) in wars started by men?

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 21:56:30

"YY Satsuki. MRAs sound like spoilt children stamping their feet because they can't have all the sweeties."

Sweeties are on a slightly different level to Health spend, custodial rights, suicide, homelessness, positive discrimination in the workplace, life expectancy, boys failing in education, divorce rights settlements, the justice system, anonymity in false rape accusations, ati-male legislation etc. etc.

Shaming tactics again. yawn. stretch. yawn.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 21:57:40

"Maybe let's not give this one the attention he craves?"

I don't crave attention. Just fairness. A bit like you, probably.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 21:57:58

SatsukiKusukabe - avoid me as a troll if you like, if by troll you mean not agreeing with your propaganda.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 21:58:44

"What a whiner. Whine whine whine whine whine .... Ad infinitum.
Vadark, i mean."

Insults. keep 'em coming. Only makes you look bad.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 22:00:28

"Maybe let's not give this one the attention he craves?"

Is this a euphemism for 'our usual silencing tactics aren't working'.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 10-Apr-13 22:01:29

not being a rape apologist doesn't mean I'm pushing propaganda. But thank you first answering my question

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 22:02:58

So, what is it that women can't do or have no choice in in today's western society. You know, the place that you actually exist? What can't you do that I can? List them.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 22:03:21

I never answered anything. Pretend I did if you like, it's a reasonably common tactic, I've learned.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 22:12:50

sigmund's a strange one. Always pops up on these threads and moans about 'being silenced' and 'worried for her sons.' As if feminism's going to eat men or something.

I thought Vadark would be too much even for her - his posts are imbecilic. But obviously not.

Anyone else hear that whining again btw?

CoalDustWoman Wed 10-Apr-13 22:15:14

If MRAs were to:

challenge the cult of hyper-masculinity and its associated violence
and
fight against gender stereotyping
and
get off their arses and fund raise for shelters/raise awareness for causes such as prostate cancer*

then most of the battles of their cause would be on the way to being sorted. Funnily enough, feminists have similar goals and so would be supportive.

Until MRAs start to do either of those, then I am largely a despairing observer. Feminists are not the enemy.

*my father has prostate cancer and, like his father before him, he is likely to die with it, rather then from it. Many comparative statistics I have read fail to make this distinction. My Dad sailed the Atlantic alone last year aged 68. He is the last person to compare himself to his many female friends and family who have had breast or ovarian cancer, some of whom are still struggling, the others having died.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 10-Apr-13 22:17:43

It is kinda grin that val has just decided to go through old posts now since no one is talking to him. Like he has an invisible friend. funny he is getting "silencing tactics" as a rape denyer on a site mostly frequented by women, isn't it?

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 22:19:24

'As if feminism's going to eat men or something.'

No, it demonises men and portrays them as essentially bad. Vardark brought up some good points, you might spot them if you got over the fact that he's a man. That's unlikely to ever happen though.

And yes, I am worried for my sons, with good reason. Anyone who hasn't been indoctrinated into believing us poor wimmins have it tough (such an insult), can see that.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 22:23:17

"As if feminism's going to eat men or something."

Feminism doesn't eat men. It uses men.

"I thought Vadark would be too much even for her - his posts are imbecilic."

I'm astonished that you can't understand my posts. They are in simple English. What you mean is that you refuse to acknowledge that men can be disadvantaged in any way. I guess that's just down to indoctrinated selfishness.

"Anyone else hear that whining again btw?"

Boring old shaming and insulting.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 22:25:15

Feminism demonises men

But that is a very ironic statement to make in the context of this thread and Mike B's book cover. Let's remember how this started - Mike "I must google my own name quite a lot" Buchanan trying to flog his book and being given a platform by the BBC hmm

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 22:26:06

running, it's more of a droning now, I think? wink

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 22:32:17

'What you mean is that you refuse to acknowledge that men can be disadvantaged in any way. I guess that's just down to indoctrinated selfishness.'

Precisely.

Btw, why shouldn't Mike B be given a platform by the BBC? He has formed a political party with a perfectly acceptable priority, i.e. to highlight and change the fact that men and boys are sidelined by today's society. Society is skewed towards women. I'm a woman and I can see that. Other women I talk to can see that.

A woman can do whatever she chooses if she works hard enough. All feminists want is for women to be cosseted and carried.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 22:33:30

'running, it's more of a droning now, I think?'

That's a little goading, Sabrina. And a little girlish.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 22:33:39

"If MRAs were to:

challenge the cult of hyper-masculinity and its associated violence"

When did you challenge the cult? Do you condone wrestling toys being sold in toy stores? You know, that sport where boys are encouraged to think it's ok for toned-up muscular men in their pants to smash chairs over each other's heads?

"fight against gender stereotyping"

Like men in adverts being made to look like idiots who can't cook, look after kids, make decisions etc.etc. ?

"get off their arses and fund raise for shelters/raise awareness for causes such as prostate cancer* "

I tried to get off of my arse and run in race for life. Guess what. They wouldn't let me run because I am a man and they are sexist.

"then most of the battles of their cause would be on the way to being sorted. Funnily enough, feminists have similar goals and so would be supportive."

Show me evidence of where feminism has helped the plight of boys.

"Feminists are not the enemy."

If feminists want true equality then show me their manifesto which supports females AND males equally.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 22:38:15

"But that is a very ironic statement to make in the context of this thread and Mike B's book cover. Let's remember how this started - Mike "I must google my own name quite a lot" Buchanan trying to flog his book and being given a platform by the BBC"

Hey, listen, the next big thing will be overcoming militant, feministic propaganda and I'm sure the BBC will be interested. It's way overdue.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 22:39:56

Nah - Mike will crash and burn faster than Veritas. Because he's talking a load of old tosh.

Sigmund - time and again you make vague references to society being 'skewed towards women.' Why? It's clearly not other women would be more represented in positions of power. And they're - er... not.

Many people are disadvantaged in society - mainly by the class system and the rich/poor divide, lack of opportunities in towns where industry has been shut down, and so on.

Feminism asks for gender equality - that is all.

CoalDustWoman Wed 10-Apr-13 22:44:38

You are fighting straw (wo)men.

There are threads upon threads on this very site about gender stereotyping, in toys, clothes and adverts. There are also threads on Race For Life, both here and easily google-able on others which explain why it is female only. Is there a reason, given the apparent demand, why there isn't an equivalent male-only event?

Feminism is about breaking down stereotypes, among other things like liberating women from male violence. What is in you that you can't see this?

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 22:45:25

I tried to get off of my arse and run in race for life. Guess what. They wouldn't let me run because I am a man and they are sexist.

Drone, drone, whine, whine.

Another wine doctrine? My round.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 22:46:26

Somebody please list exactly what girls and women can't do in this country, that I can. What choices don't you have exactly? What job can't you train and apply for? Where are you demonised? Where are you made to look stupid? Come on, just a handful of things will do.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 22:48:15

Better make mine a large one, running.

It's more of a buzzing now. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 22:51:52

"Nah - Mike will crash and burn faster than Veritas. Because he's talking a load of old tosh. "

IYHO.

"It's clearly not other women would be more represented in positions of power. And they're - er... not."

Did those women who are NOT in power choose to educate themselves and train to be in those positions? Were they good enough? Or did they take advantage of other life choices that they had available to them?

"Many people are disadvantaged in society - mainly by the class system and the rich/poor divide, lack of opportunities in towns where industry has been shut down, and so on."

100% agree. Now can you extend your thinking to include the possibility that men, too, can be disadvantaged. Or is that expecting too much!

"Feminism asks for gender equality - that is all."

No, not true, or else we'd see media coverage raising more men's issues. Feminism selfishly only includes female issues.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 22:57:28

'Feminism asks for gender equality - that is all.'

And what exactly is gender equality? Is it a 50/50 split in the workplace? In ANY workplace? Even the shitty, seriously hard grafting jobs? Is it a 50/50 split in parliament? Women show a real lack of interest in becoming MP's, what are you going to do? FORCE women to do it? Put them through because they're women and not necessarily the best for the job (sorry, forgot, Cameron IS doing that)? Have 50/50 healthcare? Well that would be good because men's health issues are underfunded, I can't move for pink ribbon projects.

50/50 childcare? Women are the default carers are they? What does that even mean. Is there a single woman who would be literally FORCED to stay at home with their baby because that's what society says? What about the women who want to stay at home, and the men work and vice versa...how do you equalize that? Girls outperform boys in school and universities so I would agree that the school system needs to be less feminized.

How about a 40/60 split for provision of refuges for DV victims, that would be on the road to equality.

Is gender equality splitting everything fairly, or just the things that men do more of? You don't seem particularly concerned about the stuff women have more of.

Explain it to me...

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 23:06:54

"You are fighting straw (wo)men. "

Let's see who wins the "fight" in 10 years time shall we!

"There are also threads on Race For Life, both here and easily google-able on others which explain why it is female only. Is there a reason, given the apparent demand, why there isn't an equivalent male-only event?"

Yes, because women DO naturally support and protect each other. They also communicate better because men have been trained to "man up" and take it on the chin and basically men have had much of their emotions stripped from them as part of evolution. I guess that's life. Consequently men don't protect each other and instead they are instinctively taught to protect women, even at the expense of other men and even their own lives. They are taught that they are the disposable sex. You and I know that women can take advantage of that, and often do. I digress. Men doing something for themselves only would be construed as going against the grain of evolution, I suppose. So it is less likely that men will congregate and do something for themselves, hence, no race for life for men.

But feminist could help, couldn't they. I mean they have all the power of communication and companionship. Why don't they help? It's not because they're selfish is it?

"Feminism is about breaking down stereotypes, among other things like liberating women from male violence"

There is plenty of female on male violence in society but it goes largely unreported and unnoticed by the media. Take a TV drama, or film, or comedy. When a woman hits a man it is deemed to be funny. haha. But when a woman hits man, that's different, apparently. Why? Do you find it funny when a man gets hit between the legs? Also, when a man hits a woman on TV, he ALWAYS faces a consequence. Yet when a female hits a man...yeah, he deserves it, right?

cory Wed 10-Apr-13 23:08:46

Speaking personally I am very anxious for the stuff that women have more of to be opened up for men.

Which is why I am glad to see that there is some movement on the parental rather than maternity pay front. Unless more men engage in childcare, plans for women to take on demanding careers in politics and business are likely to lag behind. And men will carry on missing out on some of the good stuff in life.

I am also glad that women do now join the army and can fight in the front line, and that there are even women on trawlers these days (arguably the most dangerous job there is, with very little in the way of danger money).

As for needing an equal split in refuges for victims of domestic violence, I am still waiting to see the statistics of all these men being battered to death by their womenfolk.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 10-Apr-13 23:09:14

Mmm wine, thanks!

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 23:09:17

Where is the list?

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 23:09:20

Sigmund - here you go. Jezebel puts it very well. Something new for you to fisk, vadark. Do enjoy it.

Also, why don't you think about why this sort of thing can happen, if it's all about the wimmin?

Did it ever occur to you that this sort of thing, or the Lord Rennard stories of hushed up sexual harassment, or the SWP kangaroo court rape trial brushing it under the carpet, might just put women off going for jobs in public office?

BasilBabyEater Wed 10-Apr-13 23:09:44

Oh yes women are very selfish for talking about women.

They should be talking about men.

The way men are always talking about women's issues.

Men never stop going on and on and on about how they're fighting for women's equality, do they? They bore me sometimes, how hard they try. All that writing to their MP's, lobbying, donating to refuges, marching in the street against male violence against women and children.

Oh, hang on...

No, men don't do that, do they? And they're not expected to. It's considered perfectly socially acceptable for men to sneer at women's aspirations for equality. Or to pretend that we're already equal. They don't have to start talking about how policies might affect women and children when they talk about policies, or how xyz affects women when they talk about anything really.

But get a woman to focus on something that isn't all about the men, and the needy inadequate ones will accuse her of selfishness.

That's how egotistical these MRA's are.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 23:10:24

Cheers, doctrine smile

I'm off to read the funny thread in S&B now grin

BasilBabyEater Wed 10-Apr-13 23:10:39

Have women threatened to rape you Mike Buchanan and sock puppet?

Because that's what men do to women who speak out in favour of women's equality.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 23:17:58

"Also, why don't you think about why this sort of thing can happen, if it's all about the wimmin?"

If this story was televised with a live audience, do you think the audience would laugh. I doubt it.

Whereas the woman who cut off her husband's genitals had her story televised and the audience howled with laughter. What do you make of that?

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 23:21:36

"Did it ever occur to you that this sort of thing, or the Lord Rennard stories of hushed up sexual harassment, or the SWP kangaroo court rape trial brushing it under the carpet, might just put women off going for jobs in public office?"

I can kind of see the point you're raising. Can you see why men are scarred to be teachers in primary schools? Can you see why they might be put off marrying and having kids given the circumstances they are likely to find hemselves in?

Why isn't male genital mutilation raised as an issue? Sorry, digressed again.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 23:21:58

You haven't read the stuff women say on Facebook, Reddit and the like have you? That's the only reason I can think of that would make you so certain that only men make hideous comments.

And how many men make these comments? At a guess? All of them? Half of them? Some of them? A handful of them? I'm guessing A handful, maybe some. Does that make it OK? No. Does it mean I'm going to concern myself with the comments of some arseholes? No.

I get plenty of vile abuse for speaking up for men's issues, from women AND men. I just let it wash over me, what's the point in getting het up about it?

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 10-Apr-13 23:25:11

basil, entirely up to you but I think you may wasting your "breath" here. You could have a more intelligent debate with a sandwich.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 23:26:15

Thanks running, I've already read it. I wasn't particularly impressed by it first time around, and it definitely isn't worthy of a second reading. Too much petulant bleating for my taste. All very stereo-typically girly and whiny.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 23:32:23

You're welcome sigmund. Saw you getting a bit outraged on the other thread because a poster dared to put a feminist blog up in the feminist section. grin

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 23:32:41

"Oh yes women are very selfish for talking about women
They should be talking about men."

They should be talking about EVERYONE. If they aren't then they're selfishly motivated.

"Men never stop going on and on and on about how they're fighting for women's equality, do they?"

More men fight for women's equality than women do for men!

"They bore me sometimes, how hard they try. All that writing to their MP's, lobbying, donating to refuges, marching in the street against male violence against women and children."

There you go again. You equate women with children. How patronising for women. And in the same sentence you exclude men as if they're the evil perpetrators all of the time.

Oh, hang on...

"No, men don't do that, do they? And they're not expected to. It's considered perfectly socially acceptable for men to sneer at women's aspirations for equality."

Doh! women ALREADY have equality.

"Or to pretend that we're already equal. They don't have to start talking about how policies might affect women and children when they talk about policies, or how xyz affects women when they talk about anything really."

Women and children in the same sentence again. Have you noticed recently that fewer and fewer news articles (particularly the BBC) are referencing the amount of "women and children" that are killed or injured as part of a tragedy? They used to, back when they were ignorant. But now, they realise it is a sexist feministic propaganda tactic designed to make men look like the worthless brute who doesn't feel pain as he ends his disposable life.

"That's how egotistical these MRA's are."

MRA's will always tell you that they want equality. Show me evidence of a feminist preaching equality for women AND men.

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Wed 10-Apr-13 23:33:58

I implore you to read runnings link very carefully. It is amazing.

I truly despair at your lack of critical thinking Vadark and Sig ; for a few lines you seem so close to joining the dots but you then lose it!

All these things you are concerned with exist in a world without equality. Feminism has not finished (barely even begun in some places). When it has progressed further, things will be better for everyone. No portrayal of female-on-male violence as funny on TV, no expectation of men to be white knights, jobs 50/50, no men in adverts being made to look like idiots who can't cook, look after kids, make decisions etc.

Equal support and access for health (mental and physical) to address the suicide and cancer issues. By the way 'equal' does not mean the same i.e. £1billion on breast cancer vs. £1billion on prostate cancer. The money goes to where the need is; you wouldn't spend the same amount when one issue is more prevalent than the other obvs.

The problems that you are concerned about (the ones that actually exist, anyway) can only be helped by feminism. I have a son and I'm hoping he has a future where he can be a SAHD, a ballerina, a footballer, a soldier or nursery nurse without prejudice. My agenda supports this.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 23:34:06

"basil, entirely up to you but I think you may wasting your "breath" here. You could have a more intelligent debate with a sandwich."

Resorting to insults is a sign of subjugation. Grow up.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 23:36:00

No - a feminist blog on MN? How awful! Better pop an MRA one up 'for balance' a la the BBC. Oh I see someone already has grin

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 23:37:07

Oh dear - whine whine whine.

'The wimmin are being mean to me.'

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Wed 10-Apr-13 23:37:08

For the record I am strongly against mutilation of the penis and vagina too. As are the vast majority of feminists so please don't pretend we love to harvest baby boys' scrotums for a giggle.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 23:37:17

'Saw you getting a bit outraged on the other thread because a poster dared to put a feminist blog up in the feminist section.'

Not at all, why would I? Somebody said that all MRA's should read it. I was merely pointing out that they had, and evidenced that point. No outrage, I'm very calm smile

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 23:39:28

Incidentally, I read it a week or so ago on Jezebel.con* , not in FWR today.

*typo intentional

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Wed 10-Apr-13 23:39:53

Vadark : "Doh, women already have equality".

Woah, woah, woah....I'm out. Mistakenly thought it had some intelligence.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 23:41:26

"No portrayal of female-on-male violence as funny on TV, no expectation of men to be white knights, jobs 50/50, no men in adverts being made to look like idiots who can't cook, look after kids, make decisions etc."

Show me evidence of where feminists have fought for these causes? Show me.

"Equal support and access for health (mental and physical) to address the suicide and cancer issues. By the way 'equal' does not mean the same i.e. £1billion on breast cancer vs. £1billion on prostate cancer. The money goes to where the need is; you wouldn't spend the same amount when one issue is more prevalent than the other obvs."

Sounds great. What have you done to push us all in the right direction? Where have you raised these concerns on the internet. Link it.

"The problems that you are concerned about (the ones that actually exist, anyway) can only be helped by feminism."

Show me how feminism has begun to help.

"I have a son and I'm hoping he has a future where he can be a SAHD, a ballerina, a footballer, a soldier or nursery nurse without prejudice. My agenda supports this."

I guarantee that your Son is still too young to understand all of this stuff. Wait until he's old enough to recognise the shear amount of inequalities and double-standards that pervade society. He's sure to straighten up your thinking. Especially if he gets taken advantage of by your future daughter-in-law. Think about it.

SatsukiKusukabe Wed 10-Apr-13 23:42:49

mmmm sandwiches

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 23:43:25

"Oh dear - whine whine whine."

Insults again. Shows that you have nothing factual to add and that you're clearly ont a loser. Quit while you only look half stupid.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 10-Apr-13 23:44:23

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Wed 10-Apr-13 23:33:58
I implore you to read runnings link very carefully. It is amazing.

I truly despair at your lack of critical thinking Vadark and Sig ; for a few lines you seem so close to joining the dots but you then lose it!

Thanks LaLa - I agree, but I can't take credit for the link - I just pinched it from another thread wink

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 23:45:07

"For the record I am strongly against mutilation of the penis and vagina too. As are the vast majority of feminists so please don't pretend we love to harvest baby boys' scrotums for a giggle."

Show me where the media or feminism has promoted raising this as a valid issue as much as that of female mutilation.

SigmundFraude Wed 10-Apr-13 23:47:20

'Feminism has not finished (barely even begun in some places). When it has progressed further'...

No, it won't progress further, not in the same way. Too many men and women are beginning to realise the damage that feminism has caused, it cannot continue under the radar like it has been.

Vadark Wed 10-Apr-13 23:48:17

"Vadark : "Doh, women already have equality".

Woah, woah, woah....I'm out. Mistakenly thought it had some intelligence."

Give me a list of women's inequalities and lack of rights. Talk about education, law, health, media, workplace....anything you like.

Or would you prefer to resort to the far simpler shaming and insult tactics.

Goodbye.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 10-Apr-13 23:57:47

Oh vadark - read back. We've tried that. You either lack the capacity to understand that the many 'men's issues' you are talking about is not the fault of feminism, or even women. Or you say you don't believe us, as you did when we spoke of male violence, sexual harassment, rape, rape threats.

Male circumcision is not women's fault. It's not feminism's fault. The issues Mike B is talking about - suicide rates in men, women paying less taxes hmm are not the fault of feminism. In fact, the closing of the pay gap between men and women would begin to sort ou the 'men paying most of the taxes' thing. Yes - men pay more taxes because women are paid less and tend to have lower paid jobs, do the childcare and other non-earning work.

BasilBabyEater Wed 10-Apr-13 23:58:35

Oh of course women already have equality.

50% of our judges, lawyers, CEO's, MP's, newspaper editors, TV producers, rape victims, victims of DV, in fact everything everywhere, are women.

There's no such thing as the pay gap.

1 in 4 women aren't sexually assaulted at some point in their lives by men.

Men don't have 15 hours more leisure time per week because women are doing unpaid labour in the home.

Men are portrayed naked all the time as being sexually available to women on women's terms in order to sell cars, lipstick, cleaning products - anything really...

Women and men have equal access to the resources of the earth and society is set up to enable both to function equally well with equal access to all resources.

Oh hang on...

Try the Bechdel test:

Are there 2 women in the film?

Do they have a conversation with each other?

Is it about something other than a man?

Most films fail.

Try it with men. Actually, don't bother, it's like saying see whether you can breathe.

Equal portrayal? Don't make me laugh.

olgaga Thu 11-Apr-13 00:02:00

Oh dear Mike/Vadark. Have you gone without responding to my post, the one which explains the disparity in male/female tax revenue?

There was me thinking you might want to engage in some fact-based discussion.

However I'm not surprised. Or disappointed grin.

Off you go.

Lovecat Thu 11-Apr-13 00:05:05

I know I shouldn't feed him but really...

"Show me where the media or feminism has promoted raising this as a valid issue as much as that of female mutilation."

WHY SHOULD THAT BE THE JOB OF FEMINISM OR INDEED THE JOB OF WOMEN? Sorry to shout, but having trekked through 16 pages of utter bizarreness and 'lalalaI'mnotlistening' I'm pretty fed up.

Any kind of genital mutilation is terrible. Why aren't MRAs doing something to raise male gm as a valid issue? If the media are ignoring this as an issue that's not right, but why is it up to feminism to do something about that?

Or is it women's fault that men don't organise? (and if you actually believe that's the case, why? Seriously, can you not see how downright loopy that is?)

Put it this way, would you expect the Conservative party to organise on the Labour party's behalf and give a platform to them at every event of theirs?

Aargh. I'm off to read about wanking in Hull....

SigmundFraude Thu 11-Apr-13 00:06:54

Basil, you sound like a robot. Although you've answered the equality question...madly unrealistic as it is.

I'm too tired to answer the rest, but as for the Bedewhatsit film thing you and yours keep banging on about, seriously....get a hobby (not watching fims though).

Night.

BasilBabyEater Thu 11-Apr-13 00:06:58

Work - 17% pay gap. Women more likely to be in low paid work, men on average earn more than women for the same work, men more likely to be company directors, heads of dept. The glass ceiling still exists and even conservative commentators acknowledge that, only woman-haters don't.

Law - Women get sentenced to prison for longer terms on average than men when they commit the same crime.

Law again - 1 in 4 women are raped or sexually assaulted in their lifetime. 85-90% never report to the police. Those who do, mostly don't see their cases taken to court, only 6% see their rapist found guilty even though fewer than 3-4% are making false allegations. Yet the whole debate centres around false allegations.

Health - abortion is restricted in Northern Ireland, and in the rest of the UK women have to find 2 doctors prepared to enable them to decide whether they want to carry a pregnancy or not, instead of having the complete freedom to decide for themselves who controls their body.

Another health - 1 in 4 women live with chronic domestic violence - that is, more than one attack per year.

Media - I've mentioned the Bechdel test already.

Education - teaching is overwhelmingly dominated by women but if you look at the higher roles, men who go into the profession are overwhelmingly more likely to be head teachers. Men are disproportionately more likely to be HT's.

Off to bed now.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 11-Apr-13 00:07:13

The Hull thread is the best grin

wine

BasilBabyEater Thu 11-Apr-13 00:11:03

Yeah you cowardly men, go and lobby outside mosques and synagogues to tell the patriarchs there to stop cutting their boy babies' genitals.

You're so fucking brave against women aren't you, but you don't target your pretend anger to where it belongs - boy babies are being cut because of the demands of patriarchal religion, just as girl babies are.

Do something about it won't you. If women demonstrate against it, they'll just beat us up, what with being violent patriarchs. It's up to men to stop them instead of demanding that women fight your battles for you.

BasilBabyEater Thu 11-Apr-13 00:12:40

I'd rather sound like a robot than a nobber SF

SigmundFraude Thu 11-Apr-13 00:16:51

You failed then.

Definitely night this time.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 11-Apr-13 00:28:01

you don't target your pretend anger to where it belongs - boy babies are being cut because of the demands of patriarchal religion, just as girl babies are.

Aint that the truth. Patriarchal religion. Women don't tend to get much of a say. But women are such an easier target aren't they? Especially when your agenda is keeping male privilege and keeping women in their place.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 11-Apr-13 00:42:09

Women - you can't just campaign on your issues you know, you must campaign on our issues as well. And get me a sandwich.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 11-Apr-13 00:54:31

Mike's not been back. He's probably lost interest now he realises he can't advertise his book here.

Maybe he could do go get me a sandwich as a song? Maybe try and get through to us wimmin via music?

runningforthebusinheels Thu 11-Apr-13 00:56:30

He could start a band. Mike and the MRAs has quite a ring to it.

grin

MikeBuchanan Thu 11-Apr-13 02:21:19

Ladies, good evening. Please excuse my absence, but the fight against misandry gives me little time to pop in here. Have I missed anything? Vadark seems to have been putting up a sterling fight against some rather sillly opposition.

Mike Buchanan

JUSTICE FOR MEN & BOYS
(and the women who love them)

CheerfulYank Thu 11-Apr-13 06:43:00

"Rather silly" <dies>

Yes, I'm sure the fight against the wimmin gives you little time for anything else, you poor dear. grin

StickEmUpPunk Thu 11-Apr-13 07:29:06

If its thats silly why use the word opposition? It shouldnt matter to you unless we have a point.

Basil, no lobbying gets done, just sitting behind screens whining ... Whining . ..... Whining .... And only god knows what else.

WhitegoldWielder Thu 11-Apr-13 09:17:14

How exactly are we going to get to men and women paying the same amount of income tax?

How exactly are we going to get to men and women in relationships having 50/50 shared childcare?

How exactly are we going to convince both sexes that they risk pregnancy every time they have sex?

Answers please?

Feminism is not the cause of the 'inequalities' you are complaining about - wake up and smell the coffee.

Still trying to get women to do all the work for you?

This thread highlights beautifully the flaws in your arguments.

MEH

runningforthebusinheels Thu 11-Apr-13 10:25:07

Vadark: When did you challenge the cult? Do you condone wrestling toys being sold in toy stores?

You might be interested in this, then:

Let Toys Be Toys - For Girls and Boys It's a campaign organised by MNetters, arguing against gender stereotyping of toys in high street shops.

And just so you know - copying and pasting people's posts and putting an unfounded silly comment after each sentence (eg. "I don't believe you" when provided with accepted statistics about sexual assault) doesn't constitute a valid argument.

rosabud Thu 11-Apr-13 10:37:28

There is a Jeckyll and Hyde aspect to this thread which highlights why feminism is such a difficult uphill struggle. I think there seems to be 2 types of MRA. The first is like Mike, clearly educated and able to write books and clearly disliking feminism because he sees any equality for women as taking away some equality for men. Because he does not want to admit that to himself, he justifies it by observing the world in a very one-sided way and skews any evidence he comes across to support this one-sided view in his books etc. The second is like Vadark who, like all of us, has been brought up in the patriarchy and, like many, has huge difficulty understanding how male privilege is fundamental to almost everything we experience. The Vadark-like MRA is not well educated and so is not used to analytical or critical thinking which is vital for following a debate on this issue. It does not matter how many times feminists patiently try and explain things to MRAs like Vadark (and 16 pages is a lot of patience), he simply has not got the skills required to grasp the argument, or even the main point. To someone like Vadark, feminists just look like people who are trying to take away from him everything that he has ever held as common sense and right (ie all the fundamental male privileges such as entltlement to sex, domestic caring etc) and, when he disagrees in bewilderment, they make him feel "demonised" and he is anxious to explain that he is not horrible, they are in the wrong. He takes their explanations personally, he feels backed into a corner and angry. The Vadark-like MRA then looks around and sees Mike, bless him. waving his book and telling him that it is all OK , that he has worked it all out and has evidence and everything, that Vadark's world is not about to be tipped upside down, in fact, it is true that feminisnts are the horrible vampire ones and Vadark, and the status quo, have been right all along.

The difficulty for feminism is reaching and persuding Vadark without the interference of Mike whilst at the same time battling against Mike. I think it would be helpful if the vast majority of educated men who do not agree with Mike could voice that more often to men like Vadark. The women on the thread tended to have more patience and be prepared to debate with Vadark for longer than the men did. Somewhat ironically.

And, the final irony, after 16 pages of getting nowehre with Vadark, many finally have to admit that they can't go on and will now be ignoring him and they are accused of silencing him! I don't think allowing someone to go on and on for 16 pages is silencing them.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 11-Apr-13 10:38:54

Mike thinks that women do not make up 50% of MPs, Boardroom posts, high court judges etc because they just don't want to. It's not 1000 years of discrimination - oh no, not at all.

Here's Mike being pwned by the wonderful Laura Bates of the Everyday Sexism Project:

BBC Interview

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 11-Apr-13 10:45:49

I think it would be helpful if the vast majority of educated men who do not agree with Mike could voice that more often to men like Vadark.

YY to that. Remember that other thread on that subject? It did not end well because the men here, even though they claimed to have a fair bit of sympathy with feminist issues (as they have daughter etc) seemed very reluctant to speak out and argue against men like Mike & vadark. They had no problems arguing with women though.

NormaSpoonOeufEggcher Thu 11-Apr-13 11:50:08

To be fair, Pan was challenging Mike quite a lot in the first third of this thread.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 11-Apr-13 11:54:45

Rosabud, your post was spot on.

rosabud Thu 11-Apr-13 11:58:19

Thank you. Yes, I know Pan was challenging Mike and that is great to see. It would be even greater if more men would challenge the likes of Mike AND Vadark.

StickEmUpPunk Thu 11-Apr-13 12:29:06

Vadark Not on a loser ... tee hee ... according to you we are winning.
Yippee

<nee nor nee nor sound of a waaaahmbulance coming for Vardark>

Mike, Misandry? REALLY! ha

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 21:44:45

"Oh vadark - read back. We've tried that. You either lack the capacity to understand that the many 'men's issues' you are talking about is not the fault of feminism, or even women."

I don't lack any capacity. Feminism has gone too far. It has tipped the balance such that men are being ignored and disadvantaged. I've never said it was all the fault of women. Show me where I said that. Copy and paste it. Go on. You can't can you, because I never said that. What I have said is that we are ALL to blame and yest despite the power of feminism, you refuse to listen, acknowledge or help. You are selfish, that's why.

"Or you say you don't believe us, as you did when we spoke of male violence, sexual harassment, rape, rape threats."

I said I didn't believe that 1 in 4 women experience "serious" sexual harassment, and that stats can be skewed based on subjective interpretation. Stop making things up.

"Male circumcision is not women's fault"

It is EVERYONE'S FAULT. Feminists support banning female mutilation. Show me where they support ending male mutilation. You simply can't answer any of my questions can you!

"It's not feminism's fault."

You DON'T help everyone. You cherry pick who you help, and it's ALWAYS your own sex and children (mainly girls). You don't care about men or boys. Why not?

"Yes - men pay more taxes because women are paid less and tend to have lower paid jobs, do the childcare and other non-earning work."

And men work longer hours and do more risky, stinky, dangerous jobs that women don't appear to volunteer for. Don't you get it yet?

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 21:53:29

"Oh of course women already have equality."

Yes, and they have more privileges and a safer life and live longer etc...

"There's no such thing as the pay gap."

Correct. Job for job, women get paid the same as men. You've been indoctrinated with this idea. It's nonsense.

"Men are portrayed naked all the time as being sexually available to women on women's terms in order to sell cars, lipstick, cleaning products - anything really..."

Anyone seen the latest Wink Bingo advert? Diet coke? Magic Mike film?

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 22:02:00

"WHY SHOULD THAT BE THE JOB OF FEMINISM OR INDEED THE JOB OF WOMEN?

BECAUSE WE SHOULD ALL BE HELPING EACH OTHER. DOH!

Oops, sorry, forgot that feminists only think of themselves!

"Sorry to shout, but having trekked through 16 pages of utter bizarreness and 'lalalaI'mnotlistening' I'm pretty fed up."

So are men.

"Any kind of genital mutilation is terrible."

We agree.

"Why aren't MRAs doing something to raise male gm as a valid issue?"

Because men don't help themselves. It's in their nature. But men have ALWAYS helped women. Have you ever stopped to think.

"If the media are ignoring this as an issue that's not right"

Blimey, we agree again.

"but why is it up to feminism to do something about that?"

BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE A MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO HELP EVERYONE ELSE WHO ARE MORE DISADVANTAGED.

You shouted first.

"Or is it women's fault that men don't organise?"

No, I never said that.

"downright loopy that is?)"

Can you see how downright selfish you all look.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 11-Apr-13 22:25:51

<hands vadark more rope>

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 22:32:27

"Work - 17% pay gap."

Longer hours, dirty jobs, stressful, unsociable jobs. Repeat repeat repeat.

"Women more likely to be in low paid work,"

More choices, can't have cake andeat it. Ca't argue with life's biological issues. Safer, part time jobs. Repeat repeat repeat.

"men on average earn more than women for the same work"

Untrue. Show me an example and we'll sue them. It has to be EXACTLY the same job.

"men more likely to be company directors, heads of dept."

More men are work-centred. They also studied and trained for these jobs. And perhaps they might even be better, who knows.

"The glass ceiling still exists and even conservative commentators acknowledge that, only woman-haters don't."

Firstly, I'm not a woman-hater. I happen to care for everyone and I loath the idea of selfishness. Secondly, there is no glass ceiling. It's feminist propaganda. A bit like man-flu - designed to put men down.

"Law - Women get sentenced to prison for longer terms on average than men when they commit the same crime."

Gosh, you are so misinformed. Please google the stats. I have just found so much evidence to show you are wrong. Here's a link for you to read.

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2002/0423a.html


"Law again - 1 in 4 women are raped or sexually assaulted in their lifetime. 85-90% never report to the police."

Exactly where are you getting these figures from? And what constitutes sexual assault in context of the final stat?

"only 6% see their rapist found guilty"

Listen to me. Rape is very, very bad. It's a difficult area and very sensitive. Convicting someone of rape requires absolute proof and confidence. Your stat can be read mny ways, but in the end it is for the judg to decide based on the facts that are known. I repeat that I DESPISE men that rape and give men a bad name. They make me sick!

"even though fewer than 3-4% are making false allegations"

So do you just want to forget about these men whose lives are ruined by these pathetic excuses of a human being?

"abortion is restricted in Northern Ireland, and in the rest of the UK women have to find 2 doctors prepared to enable them to decide whether they want to carry a pregnancy or not, instead of having the complete freedom to decide for themselves who controls their body"

It's HIS baby as well. Watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8w0p-Zplsg

"Another health - 1 in 4 women live with chronic domestic violence - that is, more than one attack per year. "

Current stats show that domestic violence committed by women against men is nearly as much as the other way around. What isn't taken into consideration is that women report and men don't. What do you make of that?

"Education - teaching is overwhelmingly dominated by women"

They are probably attracted by the long holidays and they aren't portrayed as perverts when linked with children.

"but if you look at the higher roles, men who go into the profession are overwhelmingly more likely to be head teachers."

What is stopping women from becoming a head teacher? Show me the blockages?

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 22:43:07

"Yeah you cowardly men, go and lobby outside mosques and synagogues to tell the patriarchs there to stop cutting their boy babies' genitals. "

You have the audacity to show that you really don't care so you! Shame on you.

"You're so fucking brave against women aren't you, but you don't target your pretend anger to where it belongs - boy babies are being cut because of the demands of patriarchal religion, just as girl babies are."

I'm coming on here supporting the fact that cutting babies genitals off is sick, regardless of the reason. And you ramble and swear and blame the "patriarchy" instead of writing something like "yeah, I agree this is a pretty insane practice that should stop and I think feminism could help". You are selfish.

"If women demonstrate against it, they'll just beat us up"

You have demonstrated a million times for stopping cutting female genitals and you never worried about being beaten up!

"It's up to men to stop them instead of demanding that women fight your battles for you."

Hmmm, WW1 and WW2 along with countless other clashes in order to protect and survive spring to mind. Yeah, you're right, men have never fought for their women. Sigh.

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 22:53:08

"How exactly are we going to get to men and women paying the same amount of income tax?"

Women could volunteer for doing the same types of jobs that men do and join the 95% of work-related deaths group?

"How exactly are we going to get to men and women in relationships having 50/50 shared childcare?"

Give men the same choices that women have, same time off when having a baby, get women studying and training to be competent enough to get into the higher paid jobs such that when the couple have a baby the lower earner (could be the man more so in that case) could stay at home.

"How exactly are we going to convince both sexes that they risk pregnancy every time they have sex? "

Education. Good parenting. Sensible youngsters. Explain to her that she can't always trust him. Explain to him that he can't always trust her. Cuts both ways.

"Answers please?"

Shame I haven't got time to make them longer. If people around here would quit with the shaming tactics and insults we could have a more intelligent conversation.

"Feminism is not the cause of the 'inequalities' you are complaining about - wake up and smell the coffee."

They are only interested in themselves. This thread proves it. They are too deluded to understand the damage they are doing to themselves. Terrible really. Feminism could have been so powerful. What a shame.

"Still trying to get women to do all the work for you?"

It's quite obvious that you have no intentions of lifting a finger for a men. You are far too self-centred.

Blistory Thu 11-Apr-13 22:58:49

<watches tumbleweed blowing through thread>

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 23:01:46

"Let Toys Be Toys - For Girls and Boys It's a campaign organised by MNetters, arguing against gender stereotyping of toys in high street shops."

Show me the posts from feminists (who supposedly despise violence against children) are outraged at men in their pants beating the crap out of each other with chainsaws and sledge hammers being shown on the TV at family viewing time and then being promoted in Tesco and Asda stores etc. as toys.

Switch the sexes. Double standard. I thought feminists didn't like double standards, or is that only when it suits them?

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Thu 11-Apr-13 23:01:50

For the record I implied (my fault for not spelling it out, I suppose) that mens rights will improve as a consequence of feminism, not that feminists are specifically campaigning for men's rights (though many campaigns such as 'Let Toys be Toys' are for both genders equally).

You have the audacity to demand links from me...can you provide any links to anything that is not opinion? On the subject of prostate vs. breast cancer, you wanted links for summat or other from me, well I DEMAND links to a breakdown of prevalence, seriousness, treatment and cost to the NHS of female vs. male cancers and I want undisputed proof, in links, that women are favoured over men!

And I want proof, in links that men fought wars at the behest of women, for the sole benefit of women. And proof, in links, that every single woman of the time ducked out of active service (hint: you won't find any because men wouldn't let them fight). And a detailed analysis of how women instigate and control all wars and who fights them.

And I want the finest wines known to man, and I want them NOW.

That last one was a joke, but if you're buying (I've heard from an MRA that ALL women expect ALL men to buy the drinks/dinner)...

YoniDoesntGrowOnTrees Thu 11-Apr-13 23:01:52

And you are helping women and girls?

Show me where.

You want us to provide evidence and links and quotes and spend our time proving stuff to you. But you are not prepared to back up any one of your assertions with anything other than YouTube videos and letters to the telegraph.

Your posts make you sound like you are three stops short of Dagenham, frankly.

YoniDoesntGrowOnTrees Thu 11-Apr-13 23:04:38

My post was to vadark btw

ScabbyHorse Thu 11-Apr-13 23:08:18

Unbelievable.

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 23:23:26

"The second is like Vadark who, like all of us, has been brought up in the patriarchy and, like many, has huge difficulty understanding how male privilege is fundamental to almost everything we experience."

Rosabud, what a lovely long post of complete and utter tosh. Tell me what privilege I have that you don't. Tell me what you can't do in life that I can. List them.

"The Vadark-like MRA is not well educated and so is not used to analytical or critical thinking which is vital for following a debate on this issue."

I thought long and hard before answering this, but I will. I would bet my entire wealth that I have more qualifications than you. Shame we can't prove it. Don't make silly comments.

"It does not matter how many times feminists patiently try and explain things to MRAs like Vadark (and 16 pages is a lot of patience), he simply has not got the skills required to grasp the argument, or even the main point."

What? That, feminists are not in the remotest bit interested in helping men and boys due to their deeply embedded roots of selfishness?

"To someone like Vadark, feminists just look like people who are trying to take away from him everything that he has ever held as common sense and right (ie all the fundamental male privileges such as entltlement to sex"

What rights to sex do I have that you don't? You're being ridiculous.

"He takes their explanations personally, he feels backed into a corner and angry."

Nope, I'm engaging with you to make you understand that there are men and boys out there with issues that YOU choose to ignore! Besides, I have seen plenty of angry feminists. Haven't you?

"The Vadark-like MRA then looks around and sees Mike, bless him. "

Oooo, not only do we have sarcasm, insults and shaming tactics, we now have patronisation and condescension. Clever.

"I think it would be helpful if the vast majority of educated men who do not agree with Mike could voice that more often to men like Vadark. The women on the thread tended to have more patience and be prepared to debate with Vadark for longer than the men did. Somewhat ironically."

Are you conceding to the fact tha you need a man's help! Shock. Horror! Bring on the men then. Bring on the White Knights who aren't interested in the issues that boys face. Bring them on and let's have a sensible debate without these pathetic tactics that the people around here try to use in their defense. And remember, not once have I disagreed or fought opinions regarding supporting women's rights. I'm not that selfish as a human being. I support everyone and will trounce ANYBODY who ignores a particular group based on gender, race etc. Bring them on.

"And, the final irony, after 16 pages of getting nowhere with Vadark, many finally have to admit that they can't go on and will now be ignoring him"

They're not ignoring ME you fool. They're ignoring men and boys. Half our population!

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 23:28:51

"Mike thinks that women do not make up 50% of MPs, Boardroom posts, high court judges etc because they just don't want to"

He's right, many women pursue other life choices.

"It's not 1000 years of discrimination - oh no, not at all."

Millions of men's lives lost building our civilisation and protecting their families at their own expense in order to grow civilisation, makes your statement pale into insignificance.

You only see and hear what you WANT to hear.

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 23:35:16

"Remember that other thread on that subject? It did not end well because the men here, even though they claimed to have a fair bit of sympathy with feminist issues (as they have daughter etc) seemed very reluctant to speak out and argue against men like Mike & vadark. They had no problems arguing with women though."

Doesn't that little gem of knowledge speak volumes to you. Can't you see that your feminist ideology doesn't work unless you include ALL human beings instead of selectively eliminating half the freaking population! Can't you see that even those White Knights of yesteryear (unfortunately they still exist) are starting to move out of nappies into training pants and seeing the truth!

They have no robust arguments anymore. Why? Because the pendulum has swung the other way and I'm trying nicely to warn you that feminism is going to face a severe backlash if you don't pull your act together. You could have sooooo much power but you need the logic and selflessness to go with it.

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 23:36:19

"To be fair, Pan was challenging Mike quite a lot in the first third of this thread."

And then realised that he was onto a loser...

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 23:38:12

"Thank you. Yes, I know Pan was challenging Mike and that is great to see. It would be even greater if more men would challenge the likes of Mike AND Vadark."

They're reading. Bring them on. For every fact they present. I will present 20.

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 23:43:09

"<hands vadark more rope>"

You are the ones hanging yourselves. Mike has given plenty of statistical evidence and you have either ignored it, denied it or applied shaming tactics and insults.

You have also failed to show any examples of things that block women from having similar choices to men or supply lists of things that give me more privilege than you. You have failed miserably.

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 23:46:16

"<watches tumbleweed blowing through thread>"

Yep, what else can you say as a feminist? I suppose it's part of your tactic to ignore men. It just proves my point that you are utterly incapable of having any compassion whatsoever for anything other than your own gender.

Whereas men....they have and will ALWAYS support you. The majority, that is.

Vadark Thu 11-Apr-13 23:49:40

"I DEMAND links to a breakdown of prevalence, seriousness, treatment and cost to the NHS of female vs. male cancers and I want undisputed proof, in links, that women are favoured over men!"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20875488

seeker Thu 11-Apr-13 23:54:11

"*"How exactly are we going to get to men and women paying the same amount of income tax?"

Women could volunteer for doing the same types of jobs that men do and join the 95% of work-related deaths group?"*

OK, I'll bite. What were all these incredibly highly paid (so incredibly highly taxed) jobs that men do that women won't because they are too dangerous?

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 00:02:07

"And I want proof, in links that men fought wars at the behest of women, for the sole benefit of women. And proof, in links, that every single woman of the time ducked out of active service (hint: you won't find any because men wouldn't let them fight). And a detailed analysis of how women instigate and control all wars and who fights them.
"

Men fight wars on behalf of humanity. Wars are a result of competition, greed, territory, food, money etc. EVERYONE benefits in the long run, I suppose. It's part of evolutionary circles of life. I hate war, it stinks. But war is inevitable, I think, and that's unfortunate. But who is at the forefront of the bloodshed? Who volunteers? Who conveniently gets to stay at home? And don't you think it is decent of men not to allow women to fight? You see that as bad for you?

Talk about making rope for yourself!

seeker Fri 12-Apr-13 00:08:16

Not sure if you've noticed, but there are women in the Services.......And it has been the largely male hierarchy that has kept women service people out of the front line, much to their frustration.

When you're talking about work related deaths, you' not talking about soldiers, are they?

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 00:10:30

"OK, I'll bite. What were all these incredibly highly paid (so incredibly highly taxed) jobs that men do that women won't because they are too dangerous?"

I bite back.

http://listverse.com/2008/08/26/top-10-most-fatal-occupations/

How many women do these jobs?

Check out this link. Notice how they refer to "people", not "men". That's because men are perceived as being expendable. If these people getting hurt and injured were women, "people" would be replaced with "women". Guaranteed. Listen to the news, you'll see.

http://www.careerbuilder.co.uk/Article/CB-127-Job-Search-Britains-Most-Dangerous-Jobs/

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 00:13:26

"Not sure if you've noticed, but there are women in the Services......."

How many. Give me the ratio.

"And it has been the largely male hierarchy that has kept women service people out of the front line,"

How convenient for women.

"much to their frustration."

Is that much to the frustration of the miniscule percentage of women wanting to go on the front line, or much to the frustration of ALL women?

When you're talking about work related deaths, you' not talking about soldiers, are they?"

No.

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 00:15:42

So, is anybody on this thread interested in the issues of our younger generation of boys and their future now? Your Sons? Are they important enough to you? Do you care, even a tinsywinsy, tiny little bit?

Maggysinge Fri 12-Apr-13 00:19:27

I wouldn't bother bar dark you'll just be shouted down as a troll so they can carry on their little love in together. Stick their fingers in their ears and shout lalala I'm not listening you are wrong and we are right as usual.

Maggysinge Fri 12-Apr-13 00:19:59

Vadark that was meant to say not bad ark!

seeker Fri 12-Apr-13 00:25:37

OK- I've looked at your list of dangerous jobs. Noting that the word "guys" is used frequently, and the non gender specific "people" is pretty universally used- and would be used even if they were talking about traditionally female jobs. Which they aren't. Many of the jobs listd are traditionally male. Often, but not exclusively, because they are jobs that rely on physical strength and size. Not sure what you expect women to do about that -steroids? And often because they are jobs that are traditionally male "closed shops". You can't have it both ways- "wimmin comin' over 'ere, takin' our jobs" - and "women have an easy life because they aren't queuing up to be deep sea fishermen.

Oh, by the way, the number of women dying or being significantly injured in childbirth worldwide rather casts a shadow over the number of men killed because other men refuse to adhere to safety standards when constructing mobile phone masts.......

seeker Fri 12-Apr-13 00:26:39

Oh, and I do have a son. He seems to be doing fine. When should I start worrying for him?

olgaga Fri 12-Apr-13 00:34:05

Oh my goodness, is the implication here that mothers of boys are somehow neglecting their development?

Should we be encouraging them to strive for more equality with women?

Like lower pay, lower pensions, career breaks (unpaid), caring roles (unpaid)?

More chance of suffering sexual and domestic violence? Harassment at work?

Do tell us all what we are missing in relation to the upbringing of boys.

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Fri 12-Apr-13 00:57:29

Vadark, your link is rubbish I demanded 'links to a breakdown of prevalence, seriousness, treatment and cost to the NHS of female vs. male cancers and I want undisputed proof, in links, that women are favoured over men'. You didn't give that. You gave one BBC article about the campaign for prostate cancer research and awareness that I fully support (having done a tabletop sale for Prostate Cancer UK at my college in March, I made £156.50 grin ...what have you done, btw?).

You have completely ignored my other points (unless we count the garbled, disingenuous comment on warfare...for the record my grandma packed her bag and went to sign up to fight in WW2, she wasn't allowed. A man stopped her. She stayed at home working in a munitions factory losing her father and brother...proper cushy eh!?).

There is just no reasoning with your contrary, disingenous claims. Please, please, please, tell me what you hope to achieve?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 12-Apr-13 01:01:53
CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Fri 12-Apr-13 02:36:32

I have a daughter and 3 sons. I am not a feminist - I am an equalist.

As I see it, nothing could be further from the truth in my own life than the things the OP and friends are posting here.

When I fell pg with my DD, her father denied she was his, and refused a DNA test until she was 12 years old, claiming that she wasn't his child.

The CSA was toothless to force him to take a test, and toothless to force him to financially support our DD.

The pg was accidental, yes, as we used not one, not two, but THREE forms of contraception - he wore a condom, I was on the pill. The condom split so I took the MAP. I still ended up pg.

He had known my personal views on termination - that I would only have a termination as a result of rape or if the baby had a condition incompatible with life.

There was NO trickery involved, other than at the point of multiple contraceptive failure, me except id'ing autonomy over my own body and refusing to have a medical procedure that I didn't wish to have.

I can't see many men agreeing to have a surgical procedure just because somebody they slept with wanted them to - they would make their OWN choice.

Due to this, I will be (and have been, with my DS1, who is 11) teaching my sons that every time they have sex, no matter what contraception they use, there IS a risk of a pregnancy, as NO contraception is 100% failsafe.

He (as my other DS's will be, in time) has been taught that if he does not want to be equally financially, morally and emotionally responsible for a child, then he needs to NOT have sex.

I have taught him that in having sex, he is accepting the risk that a baby could be the result.

I have taught him that he should ascertain what a potential partner's views on termination are BEFORE he has sex - because that way, HE has choices - if he disagrees with that woman's stance on termination, he can choose NOT to have sex with her.

I have taught him that HE and ONLY he is responsible for his own fertility.

And I have also taught him that he will be equally responsible for any child he creates.

I have taught my DD EXACTLY the same things - that NO form of contraception is 100%. That she will be equally financially, morally and emotionally responsible for any child she creates, and if she is not willing to do this, then she should NOT have sex. That if she chooses to have sex, she is choosing to accept that a baby could result from this. That SHE must be upfront and honest with any potential partner about her views on termination. That SHE and ONLY she is responsible for her own fertility. And that she will be equally responsible for any child she creates.

Isn't THIS the equality the OP and friends are looking for?

Or is it that the OP and friends are not willing to accept that no contraceptive is 100%? That they are not willing to accept that they will be equally financially, morally and emotionally responsible for any child they create, and if they are not willing to do so, that they should choose not to have sex? That they are not willing to accept that if they choose to have sex, that a baby could be the result of that sexual encounter? That they are not wiling to accept that it is up to them to as retain what a woman's views on termination are BEFORE they have sex? That they are not willing to accept that THEY and ONLY they are responsible for their own fertility? That they are not willing to accept that they will be equally responsible for any child they help create?

A man's choice whether they want a baby to possibly be the result of a sexual encounter ends at the point that that sexual encounter happens.

Because anything else would be for a man to be trying to have control over a woman's body, when it is that woman's body to control.

Just as no woman can force a man to have a vasectomy, no man can force a woman to have a termination.

Because everybody, man OR woman, has the final say in what happens to THEIR body.

So, it follows that a man has all the choices that involve HIS body when it comes to having sex and possibly creating a baby, and a woman has all the choices that involve HER body when it comes to having sex and possibly creating a baby.

So a man's choices that involve HIS body are : Whether to have sex or not. Whether to use a condom or not.

A woman's choices that involve HER body are : Whether to have sex or not. Whether to use hormonal contraception or not. Whether to have a termination or not.

The reason that a man has no say or choice over whether a woman has a termination is because IT IS NOT HIS BODY TO MAKE CHOICES OVER.

So men MUST make their choices at the point that they decide to have sex or not (accepting that if they do then there is a possibility of a pregnancy and a baby), and at the point where they decide whether to wear a condom or not (accepting that even if they do, there is a 1/100 chance that it could fail and cause a pregnancy and a baby).

The ONLY sure fire, 100% way to NOT create a baby is to...NOT HAVE SEX. Celibacy would ensure that there is no risk of a baby and the responsibilities that go along with that...

If you choose NOT to remain celibate, then you are accepting the risk that you might create a baby, and end up financially, morally and emotionally responsible for a child for the next 18 years.

But it is every man AND woman's choice to take that risk or not.

If you want equality, then don't discriminate between your DC's either way - teach them both exactly the same things, as I have, and drum into them as soon as they are old enough that EVERY sexual encounter could result in a baby, no matter WHAT contraception is used. And that you FULLY expect them, boy or girl, to take a 50% responsibility for childcare, a 50% responsibility for financially providing for that child, a 50% responsibility towards that child's emotional development...basically that they, not or girl, need to make their choices carefully...

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 12-Apr-13 07:24:56

Great post, Couthy. Absolutely - the equality is there because each person gets to make the choices involving their own bodies.

NicholasTeakozy Fri 12-Apr-13 08:54:45

Men fight wars on behalf of humanity

What an utter crock of shit. If you think that what is happening in Afghanistan and Iraq is anything to do with humanity and nothing to do with corporate interests you are even more stupid than you appear.

I'm at a loss to understand why you keep coming back, seeing as every time you post you get mauled and schooled. Oh, I get it! You don't like dissent, it's your way or the highway. Tbh Vadark, if your stupid could be weaponised we could bomb our enemies back to the nursery.

MaryRobinson Fri 12-Apr-13 09:01:42

Couthy Yes amazing post.

Vardak says ^"How exactly are we going to get to men and women paying the same amount of income tax?"

Women could volunteer for doing the same types of jobs that men do and join the 95% of work-related deaths group?^

I think you have this backwards on a couple of points. I think that the effort spent get women to be miners/construction workers would better spent making those industries safer for the workers. The advent of HSE regulations has saved lives over the years, and that's based on an acceptance that workers are worthwhile human beings in their own right and contrary to your thoughts are NOT see as expendable.
The other point is that many dangerous/higher salary careers are dependent on someone else (almost invariably a woman) doing the man's share of his family duties. For example male dominated off-shore working depends on women at home looking after children. So we could turn your argument on it's head and say that men could just do jobs which allow them to do 50% of the childcare.

To this point "How exactly are we going to get to men and women in relationships having 50/50 shared childcare?"

The reply is Give men the same choices that women have, same time off when having a baby, get women studying and training to be competent enough to get into the higher paid jobs such that when the couple have a baby the lower earner (could be the man more so in that case) could stay at home.

Again, I beg to differ. The majority of women with one child work. The majority of fathers with one child do not do 50% of the drop-offs/ pick-ups /nappy changes/ doctors appointments. First name on the creches list to phone is almost invariably the mother. Men today, in their own families could choose to do 50%, and mostly they choose not to, why not?

to this "How exactly are we going to convince both sexes that they risk pregnancy every time they have sex? "

the answer is this ^ Education. Good parenting. Sensible youngsters. Explain to her that she can't always trust him. Explain to him that he can't always trust her. Cuts both ways.^

I'm not sure what you'd be teaching kids but if it is anything less than what couthy is teaching her kids, I won't be supporting it.

to this "Feminism is not the cause of the 'inequalities' you are complaining about - wake up and smell the coffee."

the reply is They are only interested in themselves. This thread proves it. They are too deluded to understand the damage they are doing to themselves. Terrible really. Feminism could have been so powerful. What a shame.

I actually found this really confusing. I genuinely don't know what you mean. Could you explain

to this "Still trying to get women to do all the work for you?"

Vardark replies It's quite obvious that you have no intentions of lifting a finger for a men. You are far too self-centred.
Again I'm confused. Which specific things do you want done for you

Blistory Fri 12-Apr-13 13:21:58

Vadark,

I was 11 years old the first time a man thought it appropriate to comment on my physical attributes – what are YOU doing about that kind of situation?

I was 14 years old the first time a man thought he had free rein to grope my breasts and make lewd comments – what are YOU doing about that kind of situation?

I was 18 years old when asked by my first boss when I was going to have children as it was inconvenient for employers to have to tolerate maternity leave – what are YOU doing about that kind of situation ?

I was 19 years old when I first got pregnant and the father decided that he didn’t want to be a father so left and hasn’t been seen since – what are YOU doing about that kind of situation?

I was 21 years old when I had to change a flat tyre on my car on a country road, in the dark when some sick fuck pulled up behind me and tried to persuade me into the back of his van – what are YOU doing about that kind of situation ?

I was 24 years old when a healthcare professional undid my blouse whilst I was under sedation and only stopped when he was disturbed – what are YOU doing about that kind of situation ?

These are the obvious ones that stand out in memory and do you know what really makes me angry ? It’s the fact that this level of abuse is so commonplace that most women don’t even register it for what it is. What are you doing to prevent men from thinking that they have free access to women’s bodies ?

Men do the above things because they believe, whether consciously or otherwise, that they are entitled to treat women as second class and we live in a society that does little to tell them otherwise. Men are bombarded with messages from birth that tell them that they are the default sex and that women are ‘other’. When ill, they can expect to be nurtured by their mothers and wives, when seriously ill, they can expect to be treated by a consultant of their own sex. When committing crimes, they can expect to be arrested by police of their own sex, tried by a Judge of their own sex. When entering higher education they can expect to be taught by members of their own sex, when entering employment, they can expect to be interviewed and managed by some one of their own sex. When they’re beaten or raped, they can expect it to be by members of their own sex. When disparaged and told to ‘man up’ they can expect to be told this by their own sex. When they want to father a child, they can walk away and not be condemned by their own sex. When they worship a god, he’s likely to be of their own sex. When they visit church etc, they’re likely to be preached to by a member of their own sex.

Men can walk into any pub without the conversation stopping. Men can sit at a bar by themselves without being hit upon. Men can defend themselves physically against virtually any woman they come up against. Men aren’t told from a young age how to dress, how much to drink, not to walk home alone. Men aren’t expected to be the gatekeepers of virtue. Men can have children without any risk to their physical health or life. Men who get beaten up on a night out aren’t asked about their clothes they were wearing. Men can expect medication to have been tested on their own sex, they can expect advice on the signs of heart attack to be relevant to them – they’re rarely relevant to how women experience heart attacks. Men can expect the default language to be ‘he, him, his’. Men are rarely asked their marital status when irrelevant. Men don’t get given away by their fathers on their wedding day nor do they have to justify keeping their names.

When men enter the employment you mention as being dangerous or difficult, they are exercising a choice not available to women. When men suffer prejudice and discrimination, it is rarely down to their sex alone, it is usually due to class, race, sexuality, religion, wealth.

The above, is all pretty much low level, every day advantages that men don’t even realise they have.

Anything that men experience where they are directly discriminated against just for being men, I will happily challenge but my priority will be women. Women campaigned long and hard for shelters, for changes to legislation, for the right to equality. They don’t hate men, they hate bad men. They don’t want to replace society with one that favours women but with one that treats all equally. Once there is equality, then and only then will I have the luxury of being able to choose which cause to champion but right now with society as it is, I choose women.

CheerfulYank Fri 12-Apr-13 14:49:44

Exactly, Couthy and Blistory.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 12-Apr-13 15:12:07

<applauds Blistory>

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 18:41:16

"Not sure what you expect women to do about that -steroids?"

Nonsense,, most of those jobs could be done by fit females. Why do you always look for get-out-clauses?

"women have an easy life because they aren't queuing up to be deep sea fishermen. "

The point I'm making is that men contribute significantly more than you'd like to admit.

"Oh, by the way, the number of women dying or being significantly injured in childbirth worldwide rather casts a shadow over the number of men killed because other men refuse to adhere to safety standards when constructing mobile phone masts......."

I'm starting to get bored of correcting people.

Globally the number of childbirth deaths has dropped from more than 500,000 a year in 1980 to 343,000 a year in 2008.

Just in case you ask for evidence....http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1265572/British-women-likely-die-childbirth-communist-states.html

Whereas, globally, 2 million people are killed at work each year. 95% are men so I'll leave you to do the maths.

There are lots of lins to stats but here is one:

http://www.ohsrep.org.au/news-views/features/two-million-killed-at-work-each-year/index.cfm

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 18:47:18

"Oh, and I do have a son. He seems to be doing fine. When should I start worrying for him?"

Seriously, I'd start right now.

And by the way, everyone, I'd just like to point out that despite my posts coming across short and sweet and to the point, I am in no way the slightest bit interested in goading anyone here or insulting anyone or causing anyone distress. If it comes across that way and you are offended then my sincerest apologies to you.

I come on here to show you that feminism is making a BIG mistake in neglecting the needs of half our population and my intention is to get you thinking outside the box. I have been doing my best to answer virtually every post and statement but it is difficult due to the shear amount of insults and shaming tactics coming my way and the number of people posting untruths and incorrect stats.

BasilBabyEater Fri 12-Apr-13 18:47:21

Vadark do you get rape threats from women when you campaign for men's rights?

Because women get rape threats from men when they campaign for women's rights.

What are you selfish men doing about that?

BasilBabyEater Fri 12-Apr-13 18:50:37

Feminism doesn't neglect the needs of half the population.

Patriarchy relegates half the population to being there for the use and service of the other half.

When feminists stand up and say that's wrong, MRA's like Mike Buchanan and Valdark feel it's an attack on their rights - because men have the right to access to women's bodies and services (domestic, sexual, emotional etc.) and women who say they have the right to have their own lives, unfocused on men, are selfish and in fact are attacking men's rights.

Because they cannot conceive that women are actual human beings like men, entitled to put their own lives, welfare and interests at the centre of our campaigning.

We're there to serve men. When we don't do that, look how huffy they get.

BasilBabyEater Fri 12-Apr-13 18:52:10

I'm bringing up my son to know that people without vaginas are as human as people with penises.

When he grows up, he'll have better relationships with women and be happier than these bitter MRA's.

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 18:54:19

"Oh my goodness, is the implication here that mothers of boys are somehow neglecting their development?"

Yes. That's what feminism has brought to the table.

"Should we be encouraging them to strive for more equality with women?"

Yes. Women have better protection and more privilege. Men usually get the crappy end of the stick from politics through to the way they are portrayed in the media, from child custody to health spend etc.

"Like lower pay, lower pensions, career breaks (unpaid), caring roles (unpaid)?"

How many times do I have to repeat that women have MORE choices than men and there is absolutely nothing to stop them from doing what men do.

"More chance of suffering sexual and domestic violence? Harassment at work? "

Actually, I reckon you're wrong about the DV. I reckon the next few years will show that DV against men where women are the perpetrators is just as common if not more so.

"Do tell us all what we are missing in relation to the upbringing of boys."

Read my previous posts, and Mike's.

BasilBabyEater Fri 12-Apr-13 19:01:23

It is simply a lie to say that men are subjected to the same level of Domestic Violence as women.

It's a lie.

People who quote figures to "prove" it are quoting from utterly unreliable sources and no-one with any credibility believes it.

If anyone believes this guy, ask yourself why a parliament with 3/4 of its members who are men, would accept figures which show clearly, reliably and consistently, that men are the main perpetrators of DV and women are the main victims.

If the houses of parliament, local councils etc are run by evil feminists, why do most of the people in decision-making roles have penises?

Women's Aid are considered the absolute experts on the subject of DV, even by conservative male-dominated bodies like parliament. Why would "calm down dear" Cameron accept their figures, if they are as unreliable as the ones these MRA's quote?

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 19:12:10

"Vadark, your link is rubbish I demanded 'links to a breakdown of prevalence, seriousness, treatment and cost to the NHS of female vs. male cancers and I want undisputed proof, in links, that women are favoured over men'."

Try this other rubbish link then.

You have completely ignored my other points (unless we count the garbled, disingenuous comment on warfare...for the record my grandma packed her bag and went to sign up to fight in WW2, she wasn't allowed. A man stopped her. She stayed at home working in a munitions factory losing her father and brother...proper cushy eh!?).

Yeah, far more cushy to be a man and actually go to war and have your legs blown off than being told to stay at home. Yeah, right!

"There is just no reasoning with your contrary, disingenous claims. Please, please, please, tell me what you hope to achieve?"

True equality.

seeker Fri 12-Apr-13 19:55:24

"Whereas, globally, 2 million people are killed at work each year. 95% are men so I'll leave you to do the maths."

I don't know, but I am prepared to bet that 95% of them aren't men in the developing world.

OK, Vadark. You are world dictator. What 3 laws would you implement immediately?

NicholasTeakozy Fri 12-Apr-13 22:07:19

Blistory your post is fantastic! Blisteringly (ahem) honest and wonderful.

I continue to be awed and educated by the wise women on this board. Thank you all. I'll try to pass on your wisdom to my children.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 12-Apr-13 22:11:48

If the figures for female on male dv are around the same as male on female dv are they? Yet on average, 2 women per week are killed by their partner or ex partner. The figures for male victims of dv are nowhere near this high. Why the disparity?

Male murder victims are predominantly killed by other men - not women.

Two women per week dead at the hands of their partners. Counting Dead Women by Karen Ingala-Smith

runningforthebusinheels Fri 12-Apr-13 22:12:22

Blistory - your post is fantastic. And couthy. Thank you.

BasilBabyEater Fri 12-Apr-13 22:17:19

"Yeah, far more cushy to be a man and actually go to war and have your legs blown off than being told to stay at home. Yeah, right!"

Did you not read the bit where she points out that the people who stopped her grandmother fighting, were men?

Men set up institutions and systems where they deliberately excluded women from participating. Armies, navies, air-forces, police-forces and then other non-military professions like miners and industrially-based jobs.

And then woman-hating men have the cheek to blame women for their under-representation in the careers from which men excluded them. Text-book stuff.

Also they refuse to acknoweldge that those institutions and systems, while formally welcoming of women, are in reality still structurally hostile to them - if you are a female member of the American Army for example, you are more likely to be raped by a male American soldier, than you are to be killed by an enemy soldier.

Cushy, eh?

CheerfulYank Fri 12-Apr-13 22:49:51

Trufax. I have a good friend who was raped by her superior officer while in the US army.

CheerfulYank Fri 12-Apr-13 22:52:41

I think there are so many things men don't think about, because they don't have to. When I woke up raped and beaten one of the worst things was knowing that some people would blame me for being too drunk to properly fight. So I didn't tell, not for years.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 12-Apr-13 22:54:24

In homage to blistory's post:

I was 14 when I was surrounded by a group of schoolboys on my way home from school and had my breasts and bum groped.

I was 17 when a male customer in the shop I worked in smacked my arse. Because I bent over to check a price on something on a low shelf.

I was 17 when my driving instructor pressed his knee against my hand when I was trying to change gear and asked me how my love life was.

I was 18 when my boyfriends best friend attempted to rape me - apparently because I slept with my boyfriend that gave him the right to have sex with me too.

I was 25 when a man at a party I was at followed into the toilet and tried to force himself onto me. Because I agreed with him in a political discussion a group of us were having - apparently that means he can have sex with me in a toilet.

I was 29 when a group of men on a train accosted me, trying to kiss me and grope me.

This is not an exhaustive list. Sexual assault and harassment is part of everyday life for women. [http://www.everydaysexism.com/ The Everyday Sexism Project]]

runningforthebusinheels Fri 12-Apr-13 22:55:10
runningforthebusinheels Fri 12-Apr-13 23:12:15

On the subject of women in the army, there are cases like this:

Anne Marie Ellement who committed suicide after being raped by two colleagues. She was then bullied and ostracised for reporting it.

BasilBabyEater Fri 12-Apr-13 23:15:33

I was 12 when men first started cat-calling and whistling at me in the street.

I was 15 when a man came up to me in the street at about 11 O'clock at night and invited me to come home with him saying that he could show me a good time and telling me I was a stupid slut for not coming with him.

I was 18 when a man raped me.

I was 22 when my male colleague would cross polite physical boundaries by putting his arms either side of me when he was showing me something on my computer so that I couldn't move without touching him and was trapped and uncomfortable.

I was about 23 when a man put his hand up my skirt as I was walking up the stairs at Piccadilly Circus.

I was about 25 when a London taxi driver (yes, with the knowledge and badge) spent the whole of the journey home, trying to persuade me to show him my breasts. When I didn't and was paying him, he told me I was a lesbian for not doing so.

I was probably about 35 when a man in a car shouted at me that he wanted to fuck me and that I was an ugly cunt. (Consistency is not a woman-hater's strong point.)

Again, not an exhaustive list.

Thing is, I think most women have similar lists like this and if it were any other group behaving like this to any other group, it would be recognised for the structural hatred it is.

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 23:26:31

"I have a daughter and 3 sons. I am not a feminist - I am an equalist."

Let's see...

"When I fell pg with my DD, her father denied she was his, and refused a DNA test until she was 12 years old, claiming that she wasn't his child. "

Well, from what you've told me so far, either he is an idiot or you gave him reason for doubt.

"The CSA was toothless to force him to take a test, and toothless to force him to financially support our DD."

I can't understand why he wouldn't want to take a test. He sounds more like the idiot now.

"The pg was accidental, yes, as we used not one, not two, but THREE forms of contraception - he wore a condom, I was on the pill. The condom split so I took the MAP. I still ended up pg."

You sound very sensible. Fair play to you and a stroke of bad luck.

"He had known my personal views on termination - that I would only have a termination as a result of rape or if the baby had a condition incompatible with life."

Did you listen to his views before having sex? Not many women do.

"There was NO trickery involved, other than at the point of multiple contraceptive failure, me except id'ing autonomy over my own body and refusing to have a medical procedure that I didn't wish to have."

Fair enough, but did you ever stop to consider HIS views before having sex with him?

"I can't see many men agreeing to have a surgical procedure just because somebody they slept with wanted them to - they would make their OWN choice."

Listen carefully. When a man and a woman have sex, they are BOTH responsible for the potential risk and outcome. They are BOTH open to trickery and accidental pregancy. They BOTH know the risks. When it all goes wrong, I totally agree that the woman has the extremely unfortunate position of undergoing a medical. But there is another side. You see, the man, more often than not, has NO choice in the matter. If YOU want the baby, you (and the Government) EXPECT him to pay for and care for that child for 18 years REGARDLESS of whether he is ready for Fatherhood or not. And if he shows any signs of negativity he is deemed a deadbeat. Whereas if YOU make the choice to terminate based on negative feelings towards Motherhood, everyone supports you. Conversely, if HE wants the child and YOU don't, you go full steam ahead and get an abortion REGARDLESS of his feelings or rights. What I am describing is very, very real.

"Due to this, I will be (and have been, with my DS1, who is 11) teaching my sons that every time they have sex, no matter what contraception they use, there IS a risk of a pregnancy, as NO contraception is 100% failsafe."

You are very wise to do this. You should also educate and advise them about what I just said above because there is a good chance what I am describing could happen.

"He (as my other DS's will be, in time) has been taught that if he does not want to be equally financially, morally and emotionally responsible for a child, then he needs to NOT have sex."

And that applies to girls too. You also need to warn him that he potentially could get screwed over by a woman who has the law on her side when she decides to find another guy and ban your Son from seeing his kids.

"I have taught him that he should ascertain what a potential partner's views on termination are BEFORE he has sex - because that way, HE has choices - if he disagrees with that woman's stance on termination, he can choose NOT to have sex with her."

Yes, good, and I agree. But you'll find it makes little odds because in reality he has NO lawfully bound protection against his choices. Men are NOT supported by the law here. They have NO choice but to follow what the woman wants.

"I have taught him that HE and ONLY he is responsible for his own fertility."

I agree and you're doing the right thing. Wait until he gets screwed by the system and then let me know how you feel!

"I have taught my DD EXACTLY the same things - that NO form of contraception is 100%. That she will be equally financially, morally and emotionally responsible for any child she creates, and if she is not willing to do this, then she should NOT have sex. That if she chooses to have sex, she is choosing to accept that a baby could result from this. That SHE must be upfront and honest with any potential partner about her views on termination. That SHE and ONLY she is responsible for her own fertility. And that she will be equally responsible for any child she creates."

But she has a massive advantage over your Son in that ultimately she has far more choice when the chips are down. E.g. there are abortion pills. And she doesn't even have to tell the Father. How's that as an example of female privilege!

"Isn't THIS the equality the OP and friends are looking for?"

No. Men and boys are getting screwed over left, right and centre and have no social or moral backing and no legal backing either.

"Because anything else would be for a man to be trying to have control over a woman's body, when it is that woman's body to control."

Hey, listen, when a woman entices a man to have sex and gets his seed inside her body and then has FULL choice over the outcome, don't talk to me about control of someone's body!!!!

"Just as no woman can force a man to have a vasectomy, no man can force a woman to have a termination."

Vasectomy is PRE-PREGNANCY control, a bit like the pill. I agree that no woman can make a man have a vasectomy just like no man can MAKE a woman take the pill. You're comparing the wrong things. A decision on termination is a result of POST-PREGNANCY and is a consequence of either or both of these people making a mistake of some sort. Come on, please get the logic right, please.

"Because everybody, man OR woman, has the final say in what happens to THEIR body."

Except for the man whose seed has accidentally just fertilised a woman and then he finds he has no choices and ends up being stigmatised or paying for a child he doesn't want. Where as she......

"So, it follows that a man has all the choices that involve HIS body when it comes to having sex and possibly creating a baby, and a woman has all the choices that involve HER body when it comes to having sex and possibly creating a baby."

Yep, agree. Now move on to when she gets a bun in the oven.

"So a man's choices that involve HIS body are : Whether to have sex or not. Whether to use a condom or not."

Agree.

"A woman's choices that involve HER body are : Whether to have sex or not. Whether to use hormonal contraception or not. Whether to have a termination or not."

Ahha, there we go you see. Did you notice how you sneakily popped the termination decision in with the WOMAN.

"The reason that a man has no say or choice over whether a woman has a termination is because IT IS NOT HIS BODY TO MAKE CHOICES OVER. "

BUT IT'S HIS FREAKIN' BABY IN THERE. THEY BOTH MADE IT. And she only has to pop a pill and she has over 2 months to do this.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortion/Pages/How-is-it-performed.aspx

"So men MUST make their choices at the point that they decide to have sex or not (accepting that if they do then there is a possibility of a pregnancy and a baby), and at the point where they decide whether to wear a condom or not (accepting that even if they do, there is a 1/100 chance that it could fail and cause a pregnancy and a baby)."

EXACTLY the same for women.

"The ONLY sure fire, 100% way to NOT create a baby is to...NOT HAVE SEX."

Yes, but that's not an option for the sake of humanity.

"If you choose NOT to remain celibate, then you are accepting the risk that you might create a baby, and end up financially, morally and emotionally responsible for a child for the next 18 years. "

The risk is FAR greater for a man. He has little to zero choice AFTER the accidental pregnancy. She does.

"But it is every man AND woman's choice to take that risk or not."

And we should be educating boys that THEY have fewer choices if they get themselves into that mess. Do you get it yet?

"If you want equality, then don't discriminate between your DC's either way - teach them both exactly the same things, as I have, and drum into them as soon as they are old enough that EVERY sexual encounter could result in a baby, no matter WHAT contraception is used. And that you FULLY expect them, boy or girl, to take a 50% responsibility for childcare, a 50% responsibility for financially providing for that child, a 50% responsibility towards that child's emotional development...basically that they, not or girl, need to make their choices carefully..."

Ok, so when your Son grows up and meets a girl who totally screws him over and gives him no choice, let's see wha your opinion is then.

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 23:27:42

"Great post, Couthy. Absolutely - the equality is there because each person gets to make the choices involving their own bodies."

I've just debunked that.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 12-Apr-13 23:30:23

Ahha, there we go you see. Did you notice how you sneakily popped the termination decision in with the WOMAN.

The termination decision is with the woman. It is her body.

^And she only has to pop a pill and she has over 2 months to do this.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortion/Pages/How-is-it-performed.aspx^

Do you advocate forced abortion against a woman's will? Or forced pregnancy against a woman's will? It's the woman's body, it's her decision.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 12-Apr-13 23:34:43

Unless you think women are incubators for babies against their wishes, or that a pregnant women should have a medical procedure forced on her against her wishes, or that women don't have autonomy over their own body - then it is the woman's final decision.

There - we've debunked yours.

BasilBabyEater Fri 12-Apr-13 23:36:25

He believes men should have control of a woman's body if they impregnate her.

Have any women ever threatened to rape you because of your activism Vadark?

Because men are always threatening to rape feminist activists.

That's the third time I've asked that question.

CheerfulYank Fri 12-Apr-13 23:40:14

So women would be within their rights to insist that men have vasectomies? If men can insist that women undergo surgical procedures, I mean.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 12-Apr-13 23:45:47

I was 17 when I received a load of obscene and frightening phone calls from a male who obviously had a lot of information about me - like when I was alone in the house, and saying he should come and keep me company.

I was 17 and in my first job when a group of men in the staff room held up Page3 in front of me and said 'Sabrina, what are you doing here?' and 'you should be modelling for this, getting your tits out for the lads'.

I was 19 when my boyfriend's friend came into my room at university and tried to rape me. He would have done so had my boyfriend not come back.

I was 21 when my partner raped me.

What are YOU going to do about sexual harassment/assault of women vadark?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 12-Apr-13 23:46:03

"When a woman entices a man to have sex and get his seed inside her body...."

Adam, paging Adam from the Garden of Eden, God is looking for you.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 12-Apr-13 23:54:23

"If you choose NOT to remain celibate, then you are accepting the risk that you might create a baby, and end up financially, morally and emotionally responsible for a child for the next 18 years. "

To this, Vadark says: The risk is FAR greater for a man. He has little to zero choice AFTER the accidental pregnancy. She does.

Why is the risk greater for the man?

BasilBabyEater Fri 12-Apr-13 23:59:50

If men don't want to take the risk, they should take responsibility for contraception

Or get vasectomies.

Or not have PIV sex with fertile women.

Stop whingeing about nature. It makes you sound pathetic and sad.

You don't get to decide what a woman does with her body, even if you've voluntarily deposited some of your genetic material in her body.

Get over it.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sat 13-Apr-13 00:05:37

It doesn't matter who MADE the baby, it's the woman's body that any procedures to terminate the pregnancy happens to.

If my sons turn out like you, I will be very disappointed in them, as I have brought them up better than that.

runningforthebusinheels Sat 13-Apr-13 00:06:03

Women are not the chattel of men anymore, vadark. We have legal autonomy over what happens to our bodies.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sat 13-Apr-13 00:07:14

He was an idiot. I gave him no reason to doubt. When he eventually did take a paternity test, it was proven that he was my DD's father. He was an idiot. HE missed out, by his own choice, on 12 years of his DD's life.

Vadark Sat 13-Apr-13 00:08:11

"Men fight wars on behalf of humanity
What an utter crock of shit. If you think that what is happening in Afghanistan and Iraq is anything to do with humanity and nothing to do with corporate interests you are even more stupid than you appear. "

And as the White Knight swoops in, his cape flapping elegantly in the wind, he lands gently on the sidewalk, bulging muscles flexing, tanned torso glistening, as his piercing blue eyes and sparkling white smile sends a shiver down the spine of Vadark. The women he lands amongst begin to swoon and gasp at the superhero's presence and they suddenly feel all cuddly and warm as their saviour winks and smirks just as the moonlight catches his flicked back waving hair. "Hey, ladies, (in a deep, sexy voice) step aside and let me deal with this. Allow me for one moment to offer you my services as the Great Protector of women only. Allow me to side with you and battle against this pathetic excuse of a man, Vadark. I will show you what a real man is made of. I will make you feel all nice and cuddly again, but in return, please, I'm begging you, please love and worship me forever. Tell me how much you love me and perhaps you girlies could even fight over me and make me feel tall, strong and wanted. Perhaps you could even go absolutely wild and show uncontrollable cravings for even more my heroic behaviour and perhaps wink, wink you could even rub some coconut oil into by bulging chest later on tonight *wink, wink*"

Nicholas - grow up and educate yourself. Corporate interests are nothing more than a modern-day manifestation of good old-fashioned greed, which has pervaded in various guises throughout all of history. Wars are an unfortunate consequence of evolving civilisations and Afghanistan and Iraq are no exception to the rule. it's very unfortunate that people get caught up in wars but it's something that we'll have to accept while we have greedy, selfish people in the World. And it IS mostly men that end up fighting these wars. Like I said, if the World was full of women only, I can assure you that there would still be wars. It's just that they would no longer have men to do the dirty work for them. I'm not wrong.

"I'm at a loss to understand why you keep coming back, seeing as every time you post you get mauled and schooled"

I don't think so somehow. Not one person has been able to supply a list of things that women can't do, that I can. Can you? I'd also like to see a list of inequalities against women in the UK today. A list that doesn't contain nonsense like "we can't get onto Boards and we need quotas to help us". A list that isn't a "we want our cake and eat it" list in disguise.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sat 13-Apr-13 00:08:44

Yes, I DID ascertain BEFORE we had sex that he would never try to force me to have a termination, and I gave him the opportunity to walk away from our relationship at that point if he was not happy with that. Just as I am teaching ALL my DC's, boys and girl, to do.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sat 13-Apr-13 00:10:42

Vadark's posts remind me of a Mitchell and Webb sketch about phone-ins.... 'maybe you don't know anything about the subject at all, but I bet you reckon something, so why not call in and let us feel the full force of your ill informed reckonings'

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sat 13-Apr-13 00:10:46

The man DID have a choice - not to have sex if he wasn't willing to accept that there was a risk of having a child. All he had to do was make the choice NOT to have sex. Not that difficult a decision. I find it unlikely (note unlikely, not impossible) that the woman raped him, therefore he had a choice.

runningforthebusinheels Sat 13-Apr-13 00:11:44

he Great Protector of women only.

Ha ha ha.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sat 13-Apr-13 00:12:14

There's no chance of what you are describing happening, as I have and am bringing my DS's up to think BEFORE they have sex about whether they are willing to accept the fact that every sexual encounter can create a new life that they will be financially, morally and emotionally responsible for.

Vadark Sat 13-Apr-13 00:15:23

"If the figures for female on male dv are around the same as male on female dv are they? Yet on average, 2 women per week are killed by their partner or ex partner. The figures for male victims of dv are nowhere near this high. Why the disparity?

Male murder victims are predominantly killed by other men - not women.

Two women per week dead at the hands of their partners. Counting Dead Women by Karen Ingala-Smith"

Shall we talk about stats surrounding parent killers?

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sat 13-Apr-13 00:15:43

Screwing the guy over? Banning a man from seeing his DC? Not in my realms of experience, bar one case where the father was so physically abusive to her in front of her DC's (which also becomes abuse of those DC's, if they have witnessed this) that SS have told her that if she allows him to see them, SHE will lose them to FC. And I know a LOT of separated parents. The starting point for them all is a minimum of a midweek overnight, EOW and half of all school holidays for the NRP. And the NRP is NOT always the mother in my experience - but it IS always the person who was the main carer before the relationship breakdown, in order to preserve continuity FOR THE CHILDREN.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sat 13-Apr-13 00:16:31

What lawfully bound protection does he need if he chooses not to have sex with someone because he doesn't agree with their views on termination? confused

runningforthebusinheels Sat 13-Apr-13 00:17:34

Shall we talk about the statistics surrounding child sexual abuse, vadark?

runningforthebusinheels Sat 13-Apr-13 00:23:11

From the NSPCC: "Killings of children by a natural parent are committed in roughly equal proportions by mothers (47%) and fathers (53%), but where the child is killed by someone other than a [birth] parent, males strongly predominate".

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sat 13-Apr-13 00:24:28

My DS's won't get 'screwed by the system', as they have been brought up (despite me not being with their fathers) to know that their fathers are as much a part of their life as I am, and that it is normal to pay maintenance for your DC's.

My DS1 also knows that the courts do NOT 'screw fathers over'. Up until an incident with his SM, he was spending 45% of his time with his father, 55% with me. He now sees his father far less, as he is unable to go to his father's house (not my choice btw), and his father is CHOOSING to only see him for 4 hours a fortnight. I would be happy if he took him out far more than that, as I can see the effects that not having as much contact with his dad is having on him.

Unfortunately, as much as the courts can AND DO make decent contact orders for fathers, there is no such way of forcing an unwilling man to visit his DC.

I just cannot see that what you are saying is true - but maybe that's because I have personal experience of being brought up by my DAD, who was a Lone Parent to me, WAY back in the 80's & 90's. Even then, the main carer was often awarded residency - my mother worked, my dad was a SAHP, therefore to preserve continuity for me, I stayed resident with my DAD.

So frankly, I think you're talking bollocks, mate.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sat 13-Apr-13 00:26:03

Of course she would have to tell the father if she had a termination - I have brought her up to do what is MORALLY right.

However, her TELLING him does not give him a right to turn her into a human incubator if he wishes her to continue with the pregnancy.

It is HER body.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 13-Apr-13 00:26:32

couthy, vadark thinks that wimmin screw men over. He cannot recognise that women are equal human beings with autonomy over their own bodies now. After all, legally, this wasn't always the case.

Vadark Sat 13-Apr-13 00:28:01

I simply can't get through all your posts. Shucks guys you have me beaten. Your gang-up tactics and the shear number of you posting insults and shaming tactics along with rambling blah blah non-logic is truly an outstanding feat of modern-day feminism. And the guy, well, what can I say? What an absolute hero of the day. He should be Knighted. Oops, sorry, forgot he's already a white knight and, shush, please don't tell him but I'm so, soooo envious that you all lurve him to bits. Jeeez.

Goes off in a jealous rage...and not sure if you'll see me again, I'm just sooo deflated by the way you all trounced me with those blisteringly fast delivered facts. They just came flying through. Completely outwitted by Mr. Superhero too. Wow. So cool.

Night, night....

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sat 13-Apr-13 00:32:47

"Hey, listen, when a woman entices a man to have sex and gets his seed inside her body and then has FULL choice over the outcome, don't talk to me about control of someone's body!!!!"

SNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORT!!!

'Entices'?! Pahahaha. Are you saying men are soooooo weak that they cannot resist being 'enticed'? If so, why isn't EVERY man 44 stone in weight then, if they are sooooo weak willed that they can't resist being 'enticed'.

Seriously?!

<<About to shout for the hard if hearing and the hard of thinking...>>

OF COURSE A WONAN GETS FULL CHOICE OVER THE OUTCOME, IT IS HER BODY THAT WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH PREGNANCY AND CHILDBIRTH, AND IT IS HER BODY THAT WOULD GAVE TO GO THROUGH EITHER A HORMONAL TERMINATION OR A SURGICAL TERMINATION.

DUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHH.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sat 13-Apr-13 00:34:04

The man whose 'seed' has fertilised the woman had the choice to exert control when he CHOSE to fertilise the woman with his 'seed'. He could have chosen NOT to...

runningforthebusinheels Sat 13-Apr-13 00:35:51

'His seed'