14 quotes that prove the nasty party is still just as nasty as ever

(205 Posts)
ttosca Mon 11-Mar-13 16:07:07

We’ve all heard nasty quotes from Tories such as “Hang Mandela“, “The homeless are what you step over when you come out of the opera” etc etc which prove just how nasty the nasty party really can be. But those quotes are all pre-Cameron – who likes to claim his party has changed.

Well, here are a selection of quotes from Tories from the Cameron era which prove the nasty party is alive and kicking and just as nasty as ever:

1) Neil Burden – Tory councillor in Cornwall and lead member for Children’s Services – referred to the “expense of keeping “handicapped” children alive” and said there were “too many disabled children who cost too much“.

2) Steve Hilton - senior adviser to David Cameron and Tory strategy director – said the government should boost economic growth by abolishing all working mothers’ maternity leave and rights.

3) Iain Duncan Smith – Tory Work and Pensions Secretary – quoted the Nazi slogan above the gates of Auschwitz Arbeit Mach Frei (work makes free) when he said about the government’s workfare programme that “work actually helps free people.”

4) Iain Duncan Smith again - this time on how ‘lazy’ disabled workers are: “Is it a kindness to stick people in some factory where they are not doing any work at all? Just making cups of coffee?”

5) Philippa Stroud – senior Tory strategist and adviser to Iain Duncan Smith – said that poverty, sexual abuse and homosexuality are caused by demonic possession. In her book “God’s Heart for the Poor” she blames the death of a poor girl living in a hostel on the fact she “hadn’t the will to stick with” being a Christian and so God “was calling her home”.

6) Boris Johnson – Tory Mayor of London - on same sex marriage: ”If gay marriage was OK … then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men; or indeed three men and a dog.”

7) Chris Steward - a Conservative councillor in York – said people shouldn’t donate food to food banks because poor families “can’t budget” and if they were given food would only have “more money to spend on alcohol, cigarettes etc“.

8) David Jones – Tory MP and Welsh Secretary – obviously thinks LGBT people are not “safe” for bringing up children: “I regard marriage as an institution that has developed over many centuries, essentially for the provision of a warm and safe environment for the upbringing of children, which is clearly something that two same-sex partners can’t do.”

9) Richard Powell - Tory councillor and campaign manager for Tory MP Conor Burns – was temporarily suspended as a councillor but then reinstated after he admitted sending racist jokes from his phone which targetted Muslims, Indians, Irish people, Pakistanis and black people.

10) Philip Davies – Tory MP for Shipley - thinks disabled people should take “a lower rate of pay” than the minimum wage to “help them get on their first rung of the jobs ladder” because that is the “real world we live in”.

11) Christopher Chope – Tory MP for Christchurch – regards people like waiters and waitresses as servants. Talking about a visit to a House of Commons restaurant he said: “The service was absolutely fantastic because there was three-to-one service – three servants for each person sitting down“.

12) Peter Chapman – a Tory councillor in Dorset – complained on Facebook about the “terminally slow (and bad) service from the bone idle bitches at Costa Dorchester” and said the waitresses: “all need a good beating”.

13) Bob Blackman – Tory MP for Harrow East – said he thought the Tory’s infamous Section 28 law that banned teachers from talking about homosexuality should be brought back: “Section 28 was the right rules to have in school so that we should not in any way shape or form promote same-sex relationships…“

14) David Cameron – Tory member for Witney – when talking about the bedroom tax, said that ”Anyone with severely disabled children is exempt from the spare room subsidy”. This is particularly nasty because it’s a downright lie – as this article shows:

tompride.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/14-quotes-that-prove-the-nasty-party-is-still-just-as-nasty-as-ever/

claig Mon 11-Mar-13 16:13:48

Hold on a second.
I just googled your first councillor and it appears that he is an independent and not a Tory.

Do you check this stuff or just make it up as you go along?

HillBilly76 Mon 11-Mar-13 16:48:38

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

flatpackhamster Mon 11-Mar-13 17:04:08

Of course it's a load of nonsense. OP is a Trot Troll. OP seems to think that she's somehow influencing us by peddling her leftie mind-rot.

HillBilly76 Mon 11-Mar-13 17:06:41

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

grimbletart Mon 11-Mar-13 17:35:42

you can always recognise a ttosca thread from the title....

ttosca Mon 11-Mar-13 18:18:01

It appears the first is a mistake.

I have Googled the others and the seem accurate:

========================

Steve Hilton

Steve Hilton, David Cameron's enigmatic strategy director, has startled colleagues by proposing the abolition of maternity leave and all consumer rights legislation, as part of an initiative to inject life into Britain's sluggish economy.

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/11cc97ae-b85f-11e0-b62b-00144feabdc0.html

---

IDS

'Work helps free people'...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGY15gSc8OM

---

IDS

“Is it a kindness to stick people in some factory where they are not doing any work at all? Just making cups of coffee?”

www.express.co.uk/posts/view/318425/Tory-sneers-at-disabled

---

Philippa Stroud

senior Tory strategist and adviser to Iain Duncan Smith – said that poverty, sexual abuse and homosexuality are caused by demonic possession.

blogs.channel4.com/benjamin-cohen-on-technology/twitter-asks-why-has-the-mainstream-media-ignored-the-phillipa-stroud-story/638

---

Boris Johnson

Equating Gay marriage to marriage between three men and a dog:

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/01/boris.livingstone

---

etc, and so forth.

You can Google the remainder to verify.

So yes, bunch of sociopaths and c*nts, the lot of them.

ttosca Mon 11-Mar-13 18:37:47

flatpack-

> Of course it's a load of nonsense. OP is a Trot Troll.

The first entry was a mistake. If you can find any other errors, please highlight them.

moondog Mon 11-Mar-13 18:39:08

I love a good Tosca thread! grin

claig Mon 11-Mar-13 18:46:51

But, ttosca, many of these posts are taken out of context and have been distorted. Duncan Smith was not making reference to Nazi concentration camps, think he meant that work frees you from dependency on the state and sets you on the path towards taking control of your life.

These quotes appear to have been penned by a progressive on steroids who has purposely plied porkies for political purposes.

Steve Hilton was a guru who apparently walked around in bare feet and was responsible for what was called "blue sky thinking". He doesn't sound like my sort of Tory - I prefer good old Daily Mail thinking. However, there is one plus point that I can see for Steve Hilton. Apparently he was the 'green guru' but said ''I don't believe in it". Now that is my type of Tory!!!!

'Steve Hilton, the Prime Minister’s director of strategy and ‘green guru’, is the latest person to admit to doubts about climate change.

‘*I’m not sure I believe in it*,’ he announced at a meeting of the Energy Department, prompting one aide to blurt out: ‘*Did I just hear that correctly?*’

Although his lack of certainty on the subject worries me.!!!!!!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2066720/David-Camerons-green-guru-Steve-Hilton-reveals-doubts-global-warming.html

ttosca Mon 11-Mar-13 18:49:05

*Chris Steward*-

Tory Councillor Chris Steward Claims Food Banks Are 'For People Who Can't Budget'

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/01/03/tory-councillor-chris-steward-food-banks-criticised_n_2402631.html

---

*David Jones*-

Cabinet minister: Gay couples cannot provide safe environment for children

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21472004

---

*Richard Powell*-

A Tory yesterday issued a grovelling apology after he was caught texting foul-mouthed racist jokes on his phone.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tory-richard-powell-issues-apology-229039

---

*Philip Davies*-

A Conservative MP has suggested "vulnerable" jobseekers - including disabled people - should be allowed to work for less than the minimum wage.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13809620

---

*Christopher Chope*-

An MP calls Commons staff 'servants' – what a pantomime our parliament is

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/18/christopher-chope-mp-calls-commons-staff-servants

---

*Peter Chapman*-

“They all need a good beating”: Costa staff under fire from Dorset councillor Peter Chapman

www.thisisdorset.co.uk/8220-need-good-beating-8221-Costa-staff-Dorset/story-18345192-detail/story.html

---

*Bob Blackman*-

Anti-homosexual Section 28 was right for schools, says Tory MP

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/antihomosexual-section-28-was-right-for-schools-says-tory-mp-8398942.html

---

*David Cameron*-

FactCheck: Cameron slips up on ‘bedroom tax’

blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-cameron-slips-up-on-bedroom-tax/12962

Which is, furthermore, an outright LIE.

======================

claig Mon 11-Mar-13 18:54:14

But some of the quotes are daft, but not all Tories are right. Unfortunately, not all of them read the Daily Mail..

But there are Labour twits too (and statistically they form a higher proportion) who make offensive statements, like the Labour candidate for Eastleigh with his comments about the IRA bomb attack on Thatcher and the cabonet in Brighton and on the Falklands War.

Just because some people are idiots, doesn't mean that th whole party is.

ttosca Mon 11-Mar-13 18:56:00

> But, ttosca, many of these posts are taken out of context and have been distorted.

You and everyone else can read the articles and decide for yourselves whether they were taken out of context. They don't appear 'distorted' to me.

> Duncan Smith was not making reference to Nazi concentration camps, think he meant that work frees you from dependency on the state and sets you on the path towards taking control of your life.

Of course he wasn't making reference to Nazi concentration camps. That wasn't the point. The point was that it is was a tasteless remark given history, and also placed in the context of the fact that ATOS is killing disabled people who are deemed 'fit work work' but in fact are not.

> These quotes appear to have been penned by a progressive on steroids who has purposely plied porkies for political purposes.

The vast majority of these quotes are outright nasty and pernicious and indicative of an out-of-date, 19th Century mentality. They don't belong to the 20th Century, let alone the 21st.

You may disagree, as is your right, but I think that having these kinds of people in power is dangerous and harmful to society, and I'm going to do everything I can to let people know the true nature of the people in government.

nilbyname Mon 11-Mar-13 18:56:04

leftie mind riot I feel a name change coming on!

ttosca I applaud you. The tories, almost every single one of them are total bastards. The opposition politicians are probably no better though!

claig Mon 11-Mar-13 18:58:37

'the fact that ATOS is killing disabled people who are deemed 'fit work work' but in fact are not'

But if this were true, why isn't Miliband taking them to court or at least reporting them to the police?

claig Mon 11-Mar-13 19:00:07

I agree that we should know what our representatives say and if they say offensive things, they should be punished, voted out or kicked out. Nothing wrong with that. But I think the Duncan Smith quotes and possibly one or two others have been taken out of context.

PeneloPeePitstop Mon 11-Mar-13 19:00:08

I knew this was a ttosca thread before opening it.... grin

Nice one.

moondog Mon 11-Mar-13 19:04:40

Tosca is of course entitled to point out shortcomings but conveniently forgets these people are not in power because of a military coup. It was us, the great unwashed who voted them in.

Moreover, no punishment would be enoguh for Tosca.
She would not be happy until the bones of every right wing were crushed to poweder and flung to the wind-after each and every one was hanged, drawn and quartered.
It is the incoherent rage and foaming that interests me far more then the underlying sentiments.

ttosca Mon 11-Mar-13 19:08:01

Claigh-

> But if this were true, why isn't Miliband taking them to court or at least reporting them to the police?

It is true. Milliband isn't taking them to court because they are not an effective oppostion. Disabled people are taking them to court instead.

ttosca Mon 11-Mar-13 19:08:23

moondog-

> It is the incoherent rage and foaming that interests me far more then the underlying sentiments.

My rage is perfectly coherent. ;)

moondog Mon 11-Mar-13 19:14:21

grin
I admire your passion.
Not enough of it around.
Did we ever meet at that Red Wedge concert I attended in the 80s in my misguided youth I wonder?

PeneloPeePitstop Mon 11-Mar-13 19:14:58

Miliband's a pillock.
Carers and people with disabilities have no one to fight for the, any more, no real option to vote for.

Labour introduced ATOS
The Coalition parties are sweeping through welfare reform which is killing people and sweeping up Carers and people with disabilities in its hastily hewn path, despite disability/carer benefits having the highest accuracy rate of any benefit. Neither the Conservatives or the Lib Dems will ever clean their hands of the blood that is on them.

UKIP and their congregate communities? Chuck all kids with SN into special school even if they're thriving in mainstream? Um... No thanks.

BNP... Just disgusting, frankly.

2old2beamum Mon 11-Mar-13 20:39:48

ttosca like moondog I support your thoughts.
This government are a load of lying pillocks and so are their supporters

moondog Mon 11-Mar-13 21:21:43

Er no. I don't support Tosca's thoughts!
I diasgree with everything she says.

ttosca Mon 11-Mar-13 21:45:07

moondog-

Do you agree with or support the statements made above by the various Tory party MPs?

flatpackhamster Mon 11-Mar-13 22:01:58

ttosca

moondog-

Do you agree with or support the statements made above by the various Tory party MPs?

And this, of course, is classic leftism - the attempt to smear by association.

Trekkie Mon 11-Mar-13 22:07:50

Thanks for the quotes!

Good to see some things never change.

ttosca Mon 11-Mar-13 22:13:06

flatpack-

The reason I asked is because moondog said:

> "Er no. I don't support Tosca's thoughts! I diasgree with everything she says."

And I just provided a bunch of quotes which I thought were objectionable. So I'm trying to determine what, exactly, she disagrees with. Does she not agree that they are objectionable, or, if she agrees that they are, then surely she doesn't disagree with everything that I say.

> And this, of course, is classic leftism - the attempt to smear by association.

This implies that the quotes are indeed objectionable. Does it not?

Smudging Mon 11-Mar-13 22:23:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrJudgeyPants Mon 11-Mar-13 22:43:51

To be fair, there is plenty of evidence of Labour politicians spouting insensitive and pig-headed bollocks too. Brown calling an old lady a bigot, Liam Byrne's infamous note about having spent all of the country's money, Blair's lies about Iraq's WMD's (leading to more deaths than ATOS will ever be responsible for), immigration for the purpose of rubbing the right's noses in diversity, good days to bury bad news, British jobs for British workers, Damien McBride's fabrications, Balls' "so what" etc, etc, etc.

All current politicians are big state scum - there is no monopoly on who are the good guys. In the words of Oliver Cromwell "[They] have sat too long for any good [they] have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with [them]. In the name of God, go!"

flatpackhamster Tue 12-Mar-13 06:21:48

ttosca

The reason I asked is because moondog said:

And I just provided a bunch of quotes which I thought were objectionable. So I'm trying to determine what, exactly, she disagrees with. Does she not agree that they are objectionable, or, if she agrees that they are, then surely she doesn't disagree with everything that I say.

No, you're using a lazy smear tactic of attempting to create a logical fallacy. Let's be honest, the only person who agrees with you about anything are the other screaming lunatics at the SWP.

This implies that the quotes are indeed objectionable. Does it not?

Goodness, no. All it shows is that you're using Stalinist bully-boy techniques to smear someone who disagrees with you. Everything you post is a paean to hatred.

niceguy2 Tue 12-Mar-13 10:40:26

Let's be honest, the only person who agrees with you about anything are the other screaming lunatics at the SWP.

I think even the SWP is a bit too right wing for Ttosca

ttosca Tue 12-Mar-13 14:41:06

flatpack-

I have no interest in smearing moondog. He or she isn't running for office. I don't care.

I wanted to find out which of the quotes they 'disagreed' with, and why.

And again, if you think this is a smear tactic, then you obviously agree that quotes are objectionable and nasty.

ttosca Tue 12-Mar-13 14:44:41

flatpack-

> Everything you post is a paean to hatred.

Yes, I hate poverty, inequality, people having to resort to food banks in one of the richest nations on earth, killing disabled people, threats to remove the minimum wage, racism, sexism, homophobia, misogyny, attacks on human rights, and neo-liberalism.

Well spotted.

moondog Tue 12-Mar-13 17:27:57

Thank you Flatpack for putting it so beautifully.
Tosca, you will burst with your own inflated sense of moral superiority one of these days.

I've lived in post Communist countries fro a fair while and your tactics are on a par with much of what went on.

ttosca Tue 12-Mar-13 20:20:01

Oh please - yes, I'm a Stalinist because I point collect and reproduce nasty quotes from the Tory party.

Such tactics are definitely akin to what went on in authoritarian communist countries, for sure.

ElBurroSinNombre Tue 12-Mar-13 20:30:16

What would we do without you ttosca?
You never fail to cheer me up - you sound like a laugh a minute grin

ttosca Tue 12-Mar-13 20:33:30

Thanks! smile

ElBurroSinNombre Tue 12-Mar-13 20:52:18

Glad to be of service.

Don't you see that anyone could collect a series of unconnected and offensive quotes from say comedians and then start a thread with a title 'All comedians are scum' or something like. It wouldn't prove anything at all - as I am sure you realise, we all tend to remember things that support our view of the world.

ttosca Tue 12-Mar-13 21:43:11

ElBurro-

> Don't you see that anyone could collect a series of unconnected and offensive quotes from say comedians and then start a thread with a title 'All comedians are scum' or something like.
It wouldn't prove anything at all

I really don't think that's a sensible comparison at all. A political party, but its very nature, has members who share roughly the same world view, ideology, and ideas about ways of running society.

This is more than just a 'series of unconnected quotes'. They are quotes from members of a political party who are in power and have the power to affect people's lives. Some of them are from the people in the highest level of government. It's absolutely right that people are concerned.

Secondly, it's hardly like there's a mismatch of Tory policies and some of these quotes, for example the way the Conservative party treats disabled people is very much in line with the views expressed in these quotes.

MiniTheMinx Tue 12-Mar-13 21:45:18

Thanks ttosca someone needs to keep at it.

How's this for a list of Tory Triumph, anyone on the right care to comment?

Under the Tories homelessness has shot up 31% (here).
Tory boasts that they would turn Britain into a “tax haven” have come to pass, at least for the rich

The Universal Benefit Payment is forcing families to move into squalid housing, typically defined as the lowest 33% of houses by rental value in an area. Given that 46% of private rental homes are deemed sub-standard, this is cruel (ONS).

The UK Statistics Authority has rebuked Michael Gove for his consistent misuse of government statistics

The Tory Work Programme has delivered just a 2% success rate after they ignored NAO warnings it was a waste of money.

The Tories will cut Corporation Tax (profit tax) by 25%, from levels of 28% to 21% (here). This is at the same time as scrapping Child Benefit for some earners and cutting Child Tax Credits

The Tories spent a year demonising benefit claimants with their “curtain pulling” stigma, even though _£66bn goes unclaimed every Parliament in benefits_

The Tories failed to make permanent the Bankers’ Bonus Tax and profiteers in the City of London are still being rewarded, disproportionately, for taking unnecessary risks.

The Tories showed no sympathy for the families suffering from Child Benefit Cuts. _One Tory MP labelled mothers complaining about losing Child Benefit as engaging in “fiscal nimbyism” and urged them to live within their means_ another example of nasty Tory commenting.

The Tories refused to regulate the Fast Food industry. Instead, they asked their nudge unit to consider “fat taxes” on the poor. They even stopped obsese people having access to some NHS operations. Unashamed of their deeds, _one Tory MP said NHS Patients should pay for their medicines if they contract illnesses through “Lifestyle Choice”_

_The Tories launched a war on women, by cutting Tax Credits and accusing feminism of holding back men_. That's a good one !

The Tories have wasted more than £90 billion of taxpayers’ cash

The Tories have axed 5,000 Firemen & Firewomen

The Tories have axed 28,000 staff in Police Forces throughout the country

_The Tories have accepted £20 million of donations from people who have directly benefitted from their policies_. The blame lies not with the donors, but the Tories for creating unnecessary conflicts of interest by accepting the cash.

The Tories have abolished Remploy

The Tories are on course to issue 3 million National Insurance numbers to overseas nationals this parliament, a failing by their own pronouncements, although I welcome our new arrivals

The Tories announced scrapped the 50p Rate of Tax, and in doing so have given a tax cut to millionaires

_The Tories admit they will now have to borrow at least £150 billion extra this parliament because of their failed growth. That figure has since grown again_

The plans announced to halt teachers automatic progression through the Main Pay Scale could end up costing teachers up to £10,000.

The numbers of workers not even being paid the National Minimum Wage has grown under this government, with women being the worst affected

The numbers of homes built under the Tories are at levels lower than any time since the Second World War

_The number of working households now relying on Housing Benefit to make their rent payments has doubled_

The NHS is wasting more money than ever before. Agency Spend among Foundation Trusts has climbed 50%. _We are now paying private consultancies hundreds of millions to assist the new CCGs_ to audit accounts, and to report on the future viability of NHS Trusts

_The government blamed the poor for being unemployed as unemployment stayed stubbornly above 2.4 million. One Tory MP even accused the unemployed of playing the system and warned of a “rude awakening” as unemployment reached 2.5million_

_Suicide Rates have begun to rise again_

Staff Cuts: 85,000 less people are employed by the state in Health & Social Care. 42,000 less are employed in the actual NHS

_Privatisation: £7bn worth of the NHS has been privatised and 90% of it has been handed to a tiny number of companies_

Private landlords are recouping a record amount of £42bn a year from tenants,

_Our NHS Foundation Trusts are facing increasing economic instability_. In total, 7 NHS Trusts face ‘hit squads’. The NAO concluded that PFI was not the main cause. In fact, rising spend on Agency Staff as a result of Lansley’s recruitment freeze was the main reason.

Of the top 10 private health companies in the UK, who have all seen their business blossom under the Tories, there have been 100+ Care Quality Commission Inspections on their premises in 2012 which have reported shortcomings at their sites.

No 2 local NHS areas in 2012 offer the same health entitlement. North Yorkshire patients, for example, are losing their right to follow up appointments and health visitors as £10m of cuts are being made to local services

Children’s rights to expensive cancer drugs now vary from trust to trust

NHS Treatments such as cataracts, hip replacements are no longer available free of charge on the NHS in some parts of England for some patients. In total, 22 Treatments are now restricted.

Nearly 7,000 Nurses have been axed under the Tories and thousands more have received redundancy notices.

More than 400 Sure Start Children Centres have now been shut under the Tories, this from a party who promised not only to protect them but to extend them

_£1.3 trillion of damage has been done to economy through lost growth & ballooning debt and misspent money_

Michael Gove scrapped EMA that the Institute of Fiscal Studies called Value for Money. His decision was not based upon the deficit since he first sought to scrap it in 2004.

Michael Gove has left Britain with the most over-crowded classrooms in Europe

Michael Gove has cherry picked the best schools for “converter” academy status, the schools with poorer OFSTED records have been held up in their applications (outright lies are being told over this )

Michael Gove has actually closed more than 200 schools at a time when class sizes are rising

Michael Gove cut £860m from the Children & Families budget and used it to bribe schools to switch to academy or free school status

Just 454 Affordable Homes were built a 6 months spell under Grant Shapps, as reported by the ONS in November 2011. This was a 97% decrease

Jeremy Hunt has ordered every Primary Care Trust in England to put 3 further chunks of its NHS out to tender under AQP by September 2013. This follows on from the 456 forced tenders this year. _In total, 912 pieces of our primary NHS services are being flogged_

_Infant mortality rates have started to rise again after a long period of them failing_

In each of the 2 years of Tory Rule, private rents have grown by more than 4%.

In total, 591 hectares of NHS land is up for sale.

_George Osborne signed a record number of PFI deals in his first year in power that will cost the Tax Payer £33bn_

George Osborne raised an extra £41bn in taxes in 2011 at a time when the economy was struggling but cut taxes for the rich.

Gas Prices are up 31% under the Tories & _40% of families are on the brink of fuel poverty_

_Food Banks have grown every year of a Tory government as Child poverty has also increased_

Female rates of redundancy are climbing at a faster rate than men. (despite all those feminists)

More than 80%+ of workers losing their job in the NHS are women.

Despite violence against women climbing, and domestic abuse jumping 20%, one Tory MP drew parallels between the allegations of sex crimes, and smoking a joint

Despite having the consultation period required for redundancy notice halving from 90 to 45 days, the Tories persisted with blaming workers for their declining rights _One Tory MP cruelly judged that British Workers were among the ‘Worst idlers’ in the World_
(another example of the scathing attitude Tories hold us all in contempt!)

David Cameron has now abolished Equality Impact Assessments thus guaranteeing less equal services for disabled, elderly, LGBT, and BAME voters.

Michael Gove cancelled a plan to rebuild 715 crumbling schools thereby ensuring that all Labour’s great advancements in updating our school infrastructure were put on hold

10% of A & E Wards are shutting. Dozens of District General Hospitals are facing downgrade or closure.

Chris Skidmore co-authored a book that labelled UK workers among the most “idle” in the world. He called for Unemployment payments to be repayable loans and proposed that benefits such as tax credits and child benefit be capped to just two children

Chris Grayling forced an eventual 350,000 young person’s (50,000 of who are disabled)to work unpaid for multi-national firms.

Cameron has spent 2 years bullying, mocking & insulting women, disabled & the elderly

At least 570,000 more households (1.2 million people) were forced into fuel povertyin a single day

As a portion of GDP UK state spending in Education is set to fall far behind the USA _making us more neo-liberal than the state we love to mock for its laissez-faire approach_ (

Andrew Lansley & David Cameron ignored a Tribunal Ruling to publish Risk Register.This Risk Register if published could have saved lives as it would have led to an improved mitigation response to the Tories new NHS impositions.

After mucking up the security arrangements for the Olympics, and wasting taxpayers’ money in still paying a company £80 million+ for failure, a Tory MP had the audacity to mock the Olympic Ceremony as Leftie Multi-Cultural Crap

According to the UK Statistics Authority, the Tory Manifesto Commitment on page 45 has been broken. There has not been a year on year increase in NHS spending

According to the National Audit Office, Gove has overspent by £1 billion on his Free School & mass academisation experiment. Gove is making up the shortfall by taking £1bn cash from state school children

A&E Waiting Times at 8 year high. Things have not been this bad since 2004.

A proliferation of the same fast food premises in and around schools mark this a sorry year for those trying to improve school food standards

A Bedroom Tax on families with wounded soldiers, disabled or elderly who require extra space for their treatment is callous.

A 20% VAT rate has added 0.7% to inflation that reached 5% in 2011 while wages grew at less than half rate. This had a dramatic effect on the misery index.

95 Academy & Free School bosses now earn more than MPs & up to £300,000 a year

74% of GPs say that there has been a reduced entitlement on the NHS this year

600,000 people will go bankrupt under this government

250,000 Disabled People have been forced onto Unpaid Workfare with a 2% job success rate

2012 saw record high Clinical Negligence payouts totalling more than £1.2 billion. This is a £500 million increase than payouts under Labour. Each claim takes on average 1.3 years, so the 2012 payouts were for errors in 2010-11.

25,000 businesses have already gone bust under this government

2 Trusts have been placed in administration with one judged ‘bankrupt’. A Further Trust was told it was facing bankruptcy

11,000 Hospital Beds have been axed in 2 years. We now have the lowest number of hospital beds in our NHS in living memory.

www.labourleft.co.uk/a-bumper-list-of-the-tories-100-greatest-failures-since-2010/ see here with links to all the evidence to substantiate the above.

HillBilly76 Tue 12-Mar-13 22:54:34

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

moondog Wed 13-Mar-13 00:28:18

Don't forget to add that the nasty party made it snow this week, deliberately targeting the poor and vulnerable!

ttosca Wed 13-Mar-13 01:10:27

HillBilly-

> What is wrong with telling people to live within their means?

That isn't the issue here. The government is yet again trying to reduce the deficit on the backs of the poorest and most vulnerable. The reduction in council support for these 'extra' bedrooms is ostensible supposed to get people to move in to smaller, cheaper homes. In reality, they knew that very few people will move.

> The whole "bedroom tax" thing is bullshit. Expecting people to pay for bedrooms in rented houses is not a tax!

They are having their council benefits reduced for having an 'extra' bedroom. The problem is, these so-called 'extra' bedrooms are often nothing of the sort. The majority of people who will be affected by the 'bedroom tax' are disabled people. These people are using the so-called 'extra' bedroom for family members who help care for them, or for full-time carers.

----------------

What do the changes mean?

The size criteria in the social rented sector will restrict housing benefit to allow for one bedroom for each person or couple living as part of the household, with the following exceptions:

Children under 16 of same gender expected to share
Children under 10 expected to share regardless of gender
Disabled tenant or partner who needs non resident overnight carer will be allowed an extra bedroom

Who will be affected?

All claimants who are deemed to have at least one spare bedroom will be affected. This includes:

Separated parents who share the care of their children and who may have been allocated an extra bedroom to reflect this. Benefit rules mean that there must be a designated ‘main carer’ for children (who receives the extra benefit)
Couples who use their ‘spare’ bedroom when recovering from an illness or operation
Foster carers because foster children are not counted as part of the household for benefit purposes
Parents whose children visit but are not part of the household
Families with disabled children
Disabled people including people living in adapted or specially designed properties.

www.housing.org.uk/policy/welfare_reform/%E2%80%98under-occupation%E2%80%99_penalty.aspx

ttosca Wed 13-Mar-13 01:11:36

> Don't forget to add that the nasty party made it snow this week, deliberately targeting the poor and vulnerable!

I'm glad you think it's funny. The people suffering at the hands of the Tories are not laughing, and those of us who have an ounce of humanity left in us will ensure the Tory scum are never elected again.

ElBurroSinNombre Wed 13-Mar-13 07:15:46

ttosca,

So if we follow your logic then we can assume that Conservatives generally think that gay people have demonic possession (quote number 5).
This is despite the recent legislation on gay marriage which was forced through by a Conservative PM.

MiniTheMinx Wed 13-Mar-13 07:35:57

"David Cameron has now abolished Equality Impact Assessments thus guaranteeing less equal services for disabled, elderly, LGBT, and BAME voters"

Cameron's pontificating infront of the public over gay marriage is a stunt he believes will make him popular. Nothing more.

Moondog you are not very funny.

The bedroom Tax is simply a way of shifting the focus away from the fact that we have fewer social houses being built. It is making people responsible for the failures of government policy. "Just 454 Affordable Homes were built a 6 months spell under Grant Shapps, as reported by the ONS in November 2011. This was a 97% decrease"

Only this week though they start to think about capital investment to build homes......it will stimulate the economy. Really, why has it taken the Tories 3 years to work that out.

FasterStronger Wed 13-Mar-13 07:45:58

Because spending money when you have a structural deficit is a desperate act. As we know from the crisis of 2007, you can spend money you dont have and the economy can still tank.... Leaving you with a crap economy and an even larger debt.

JakeBullet Wed 13-Mar-13 07:48:01

Moondog is right wing and never funny about issues like this. A bit frivalous maybe but then its unlikely that the changes will impact upon her in the same way it will on others.

I dont hate everything but dislike IDS intensely because I am seeing the real impact his changes are having on very vulnerable people....and it isnt the idle either. I am talking about those who have severe mental health issues being denied benefits because a non medically trained decision maker has decided they are fit for work when in reality they are not.

The idle ones who dont want to work (and make no mistake they DO exist in small numbers) are facing no changes in benefits. That says everything to me.

ironman Wed 13-Mar-13 08:57:21

ttsoca Don't you ever give up? You say that you are 'self employed' I reckon you are on the dole, you spend so much time on here rubbishing the Tories!
grin

ironman Wed 13-Mar-13 09:05:26

ttsoca I have met David Cameron and far from being a member of the 'nasty party' he is in fact a member to the Liberal Party! (although he is in the closet!)smile.

I don't totally disagree with Boris on the gay marriage quote, although the dog thing is just stupid since a dog cannot possibly give consent. But if one is in a polygamous relationship with other consenting adults why shouldn't one be able to marry them?

somebloke123 Wed 13-Mar-13 09:50:05

I'm sure a dog could find some painful way of withholding consent ...

Incidentally there are pressure groups in the USA who are pushing for trans-species marriage. I think they are called zooophiles (not sure if that's the correct number of "o"s).

TheFallenNinja Wed 13-Mar-13 09:53:44

What a load of bollocks.

MiniTheMinx Wed 13-Mar-13 09:58:11

ironman a friend of mine went to school with Cameron, he said he was thick. He probably got lost on the way to a Liberal conference.

ironman Wed 13-Mar-13 11:29:12

minitheminx Thick and naive is my opinion!

ironman Wed 13-Mar-13 11:31:24

About Cameron obviously!smile

adeucalione Wed 13-Mar-13 14:29:57

Wiki says 12 O'levels, 3 A levels (all As), PPE at Oxford (first).

I'm a bit depressed if that's considered thick nowadays, what are the clever people achieving then?

niceguy2 Wed 13-Mar-13 14:36:10

So...with the above education results, a millionaire in his own right and prime minister of this country and he's 'thick'? Is your friend a millionaire Mini?

Out of touch I would agree with. Thick? I don't think so.

DieWilde13 Wed 13-Mar-13 14:41:31

Marking my place, need entertainment later

MiniTheMinx Wed 13-Mar-13 17:32:43

My friend went to school with him.......so think what you will.

So if Scameron isn't thick he must just be nasty ? grin

MiniTheMinx Wed 13-Mar-13 17:42:34

Seems no one wants to comment on the Tory List of triumph. I thought those on the right would be turning cart wheels at such good news.

ttosca Wed 13-Mar-13 17:52:55

Not sure if he's thick. He's definitely nasty though.

Another Tory triumph:

Majority of British children will soon be growing up in families struggling 'below the breadline', Government warned

The majority of British children will soon be growing up in families which are struggling “below the breadline” because of welfare cuts, tax rises and wage freezes, the Government is warned today.

Within two years, almost 7.1m of the nation’s 13m youngsters will be in homes with incomes judged to be less than the minimum necessary for a decent standard of living, according to a new report.

The figures, which emerged a week ahead of George Osborne’s Budget, suggest that an unwanted legacy of the Coalition’s squeeze on spending will be to leave more children living close to poverty.

They coincide with a new survey for the Resolution Foundation think-tank, which found that almost seven in ten of people believe the Government does not understand the financial strains they face.

The impact on children of the economic downturn and austerity measures was underlined by an analysis that concluded that the number of under-18s living in households below minimum income standards would increase by 690,000 between 2010 and 2015. The definitions of acceptable living standards are drawn up by the respected charity, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation.

Today’s report said 460,000 children would be pushed below those levels by the increase in VAT and cuts to tax credits, 170,000 by sluggish wage growth and 80,000 by the curbs on public sector pay. Just 20,000 would be raised above the minimum level by the new Universal Credit system, which begins to come into force in October.

The TUC, which commissioned the research by the economist Howard Reed, said the figures should “shame” any civilised society and challenged Mr Osborne to cut VAT to ease the pressures on the lowest income families.

By 2015, a lone parent with one child is calculated to require an annual income of £19,226 to have a decent standard of living, rising to £23,992 for a lone parent with two children, £24,643 for a couple with one child and £29,093 if they have two children. But Mr Reed calculated that 54 per cent of youngsters will be living in households with income below those levels in two years’ time.

His report concluded that 90 per cent of families will be worse off in 2015 than in 2010.

Only the poorest ten per cent will be better-off – and then by £29.60 a year, or 57p a week. The boost they received from raising tax thresholds has been virtually wiped out by the increase in VAT to 20 per cent in 2011.

Frances O’Grady, the TUC general secretary, said: “Families are suffering the tightest squeeze in living standards in nearly a century. On top of wages that do not keep up with prices, government policies are making life even more miserable for millions of low to middle-income families through tax increases and cuts in benefits and tax credits.

“By the 2015 election, the majority of children in Britain will be living below the breadline. For any civilised society, that should be shaming.”

The Department of Work and Pensions accused the TUC of choosing an “arbitrary measure to support their own point of view”. A spokesman said the Government was committed to eradicating child poverty by tackling its root causes including unemployment, educational failure and family breakdown.

He added: “Our welfare reforms will improve the lives of some of the poorest families in our communities, with the Universal Credit making three million people better off. And by next year, we will have taken two million of the lowest earners out of paying tax altogether."

In the Resolution Foundation poll, 69 per cent of people thought the Government did not understand the “financial pressures” they and their families were experiencing. The sentiment was shared across all income and class brackets in the poll conducted by Ipsos MORI.

Just 19 per cent said they believed ministers appreciated the pressures they were under.

Vidhya Alakeson, the foundation’s deputy chief executive, said: “Faltering prosperity is a key issue not only for the government of the day but for all political parties as we approach an election in two years’ time.

The TUC will stage a pre-Budget rally today at which it will urge the Chancellor to focus on jobs, growth and family next week.

Dave Prentis, the general secretary of Unison, will tell the gathering: “Austerity is OK if you are rich. It’s OK if you are one of the 13,000 millionaires in this country because austerity means you get richer. That’s because if you are rich, you’re in line for an extra £100,000 tax break, taken from the pockets of the poor.”

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/majority-of-british-children-will-soon-be-growing-up-in-families-struggling-below-the-breadline-government-warned-8531584.html

ttosca Wed 13-Mar-13 17:53:44

Please read that again:

The majority of British children will soon be growing up in families which are struggling “below the breadline” because of welfare cuts, tax rises and wage freezes, the Government is warned today.

And think about it the next time you chose to defend Tory policies.

MiniTheMinx Wed 13-Mar-13 19:10:31

Child poverty rose from 1 in 10 in 1979 to 1 in 3 in 1998

I wonder if that witch thatcher set the ball rolling.

moondog Wed 13-Mar-13 19:11:31

What would you do if you were running the show Tosca?
Genuinely, I am interested in what you see as the solution to all of these things that clearly distress you.

ttosca Wed 13-Mar-13 19:48:10

moondog-

> What would you do if you were running the show Tosca?
Genuinely, I am interested in what you see as the solution to all of these things that clearly distress you.

Obviously, I would abolish Capitalism and replace it with democracy.

But you're looking for a reformist answer, aren't you?

OK, well, within the confines of social-democracy, I would at the very least look at our european neighbours and see how they manage to run things without having half their children run in poverty.

I would also crack down on tax evasion and avoidance, bringing in tens of thousands, and possibly hundreds of thousands of pounds to the treasury every year.

I would ease the burden of the poorest and middle-classes by:

a) Cutting V.A.T., which disproportionately hits the poor

b) Raising the income tax threshold to the minimum wage.

c) Raise the minimum wage to a living wage.

d) Tack the minimum/living wage to inflation, so the poorest people don't get progressively poorer due to inflation.

e) Nationalise and rationalise the railways. Make affordable and efficient transport for everybody a priority.

f) Enact a 'Tobin Tax' or 'Financial Transactions Tax' like most of the rest of europe has already agreed to do; this would not harm the financial services. The amount is absolutely tiny, and would furthermore add stability to our financial economy.

g) Enact either a 'Mansion Tax' (instead of a 'bedroom tax' which hits the poorest) or else re-create the council tax banding system with more gradations, and a higher top level. It is not right that millionaires living in mansions are taxed at the same rate a middle-class families in large homes.

These are just some of the ideas I would implement. There are a many more I can suggest later.

The point is that wealth inequality in the UK has become extreme, and it has become harmful both socially and economically.

moondog Wed 13-Mar-13 19:51:53

Some good points.
With you on the transport issue totally.
Which European neighbours would you look to specifically?

Having lived and worked in many developing countries, with a dh who works professionally in this field I do find your hysterical accusations about poverty totally over the top though.

ttosca Wed 13-Mar-13 20:02:17

> Some good points.

Thanks!

> With you on the transport issue totally.

Yeah, it's a big problem here. Rail costs are so outrageous that they've reached a point where they're making taking up jobs in other towns and cities not viable.

> Which European neighbours would you look to specifically?

To be honest, most of them. I know that's a vague answer, but I think that the majority of citizens in most western european countries fare better than in the UK. Of course, there are some countries which are performing very poorly: notably Greece, Spain and Italy. However, Germany, France, and the Nordic countries all manage to run social-democracies without extremes in wealth and the social problems which the UK seems to suffer from.

> Having lived and worked in many developing countries, with a dh who works professionally in this field I do find your hysterical accusations about poverty totally over the top though.

I don't think children in the UK fare anywhere nearly as badly as in developing countries. That wasn't the comparison. The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. We are also one of the most developed and technologically advanced. There is no excuse whatever for the levels of poverty and deprivation we have here. None at all. It's entirely political.

MiniTheMinx Wed 13-Mar-13 20:24:27

If we were living in a democracy I'd vote the first proposal smile

Capitalism is inherently unstable and incapable of meeting human needs. The only people who can save capitalism are the reformers who mitigate against its worst excess and prevent crisis. I can't remember who said it, I think it may have been Gramsci "the workers are best people to save capitalism" in reference to the fact that the capitalists are digging their own graves.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UD-QqYFJqY David Harvey on the 17 contradictions of capitalism

moondog Wed 13-Mar-13 21:06:54

Hmmm, well I spend a fair bit of time in France nad beleive you me, all is not rosy in the garden there!
Would you agree that spending on welfare seems to have spiralled out of control and that it is far better for people to work than to be passive disempowered recipients of benefits?

I am no economist (slight understatement to say the least) but house prices seem to be a key factor in so much of what is going wrong. I can't see that the vast buy to let empire that Labour did so much to encourage helps matters at all whereby tax payers fill the coffers of private investors to provide housing for people.

ttosca Wed 13-Mar-13 21:17:53

moondog-

> Would you agree that spending on welfare seems to have spiralled out of control

I would like to see evidence for that. I do know that the amount of unclaimed benefits exceeds fraud by a factor of about three to one.

Of course you probably mean 'legitimately claimed' i.e. legal claims have spiraled out of control. I don't think this is the case with Jobseekers Allowance at all.

I think you could make the case that there is a lot of state subsidy for poor people who are trying to make ends meet, but keep in mind that the majority of recipients of benefits of one form or another are working families.

We're in a situation where employers don't pay employees enough. Wages have stagnated for three decades for the majority of people. Meanwhile, the cost of living has risen considerably. So the state subsidizes wages so that people can survive.

It's ridiculous, but that's what happens when you race to the bottom. It's also one of the contradictions of Capitalism, as Mini alluded to: employers will try to pay less and less to workers to reduce their costs, but in the end, their own greed is self-defeating, because their employees can no longer afford to buy their own goods and services which they produce under the employer.

> and that it is far better for people to work than to be passive disempowered recipients of benefits?

Yes, of course, but the vast overwhelming majority have no desire to live a life on benefits - nor can they even if they wanted to. This drive to get people off of benefits when they are disabled or ill and unable to work is not (and cannot) encourage these people to work. It just ends up stressing them out and sometimes killing them.

MiniTheMinx Wed 13-Mar-13 21:59:40

>Would you agree that spending on welfare seems to have spiralled out of control and that it is far better for people to work than to be passive disempowered recipients of benefits?

I would agree with you Moondog but under capitalism there is a tendency towards monopolisation where capital (money) accumulates in fewer hands, this means that workers can only compete against each other for available jobs. Often there only leverage is the acceptance of lower pay. Jobs can only be made available to them and they can not compete against those who hold all the money. The other issue is that fewer workers are needed in production, over time service industries take up more workers. This is why it is important to keep making the case that we need welfare services, if not welfare in the form of benefits. Far better to hand a man a shovel and a living wage to fill holes in the road and feed his kids than JSA.

MiniTheMinx Wed 13-Mar-13 22:00:21

*their only leverage (very tired)

moondog Wed 13-Mar-13 22:40:05

My (personal) observation from a career of working with disabled people is that many would LOVE a job.
We do seem in a situation where ostensibly the state has to subsidise people to live. I can't understand the logic of the taxpayer boosing a wage which should be sufficient in itself. Why are we subsidising big businesses? It's nuts.

But surely this is also to do with people's perceived need to own things that they don't need to own? Spending on food for example is now about 5% of peopls' total income whereas in the 50s it was about 20%. Forgive me for not having the exact figures to hand. Food security is my dh's line of work and he could give me good references but is in another time zone.

ttosca Wed 13-Mar-13 23:04:55

You're right about food. Food is one of the few things which has actually become considerably cheaper over the past few decades.

> But surely this is also to do with people's perceived need to own things that they don't need to own?

I don't think so. I think we have a lot of struggling families who can barely afford the basics. The fact that the use of foodbanks has increased massively in the past few years:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/un-official-alarmed-by-rise-of-food-banks-in-uk-8498791.html

And my other post above which shows that half of children will live in poverty by 2015 shows that it's not Sky TV that people can't afford, but the basics like heating, clothing, and a basic standard of living.

moondog Wed 13-Mar-13 23:15:38

A lot of food banks and soup kitchens are run by people who are more interested in their own ability to do good than anything else and if the supply is there, demand follows.
What people are not able to do is to cook and manage food, because cooking and home economics was deemed old fashioned. hmm
I can't think of anything more disempowering than that. Obviously access to good food is important. Ehrenreich's 'Nickled and Dimded' summed that up very well (and poor old Polly Toynbee did her own poor imitation in which she was astounded that Peter Mandelson didn't recognise her which sums her up pretty well)

Clothes expensive? Nope. Not with you there. Clothes have never been cheaper. My dh works in the country which produces most of the garmentsd worn in this country so again, I know a fair bit about this subject.

Heating, yes. Bloody outrageous.

Tortington Wed 13-Mar-13 23:22:37

I manage a project which gives out food bank vouchers. It is not the case ( as i think you are suggesting moondog) that one can just turn up and fill a bag.

There needs to be agency intervention or contact with people who get the food vouchers - they aren't just thrown about willy nilly. donated food is a finite resource and all the agencies both statuatory and non stat know this.

the cost of housing alone is incredible. and the changes to benefits will only make this worse.

Tortington Wed 13-Mar-13 23:23:43

ttosca - have you picked up on the utter twattishness of eric pickles and his mad as a box of frogs ideas to get money in!

also grant shapps - is an utter arse licking slimy twat.

ttosca Wed 13-Mar-13 23:44:28

I would say heating, transport, electricity, and rent are outrageously expensive in the UK.

Whether food is cheap or not (it is) is a small concession when you've already spent all your money on everything else. That's why people still end up in food banks.

So no, I refuse to blame the average worker for being poor, given that the cost of living has steadily increase whilst her wage has remained (on average) roughly the same in real terms since 1980.

ttosca Wed 13-Mar-13 23:45:15

From facebook:

-------------

"Shocking contemptuous greed by MP's while benefit claimants starve, freeze & face losing their homes because of 'Bedroom Tax'

The Conservatives demonise benefit claimants on a daily basis meanwhile MP's get an an extra £100 to spend on their second homes - all in together are we David Cameron ?

The Parliamentary Standards Authority said the cash was to help MPs pay for increases in the cost of Freeview television, gas and electricity bills and insurance.

Other costs covered by the increase were council tax bills, service charges, contents and building insurance, phone line rental and bills and burglar alarms.

The Parliamentary Standards Authority also announced that the amount of money MPs can claim for the cost of running their offices was also going up by 2.4 per cent.

Disgraced Lord Hanningfield, who was jailed for his expenses claims, has started claiming Lords allowances again. Latest figures show that he claimed £4,800 in October 2012 alone, plus £383 travel costs.

That brings his total claims in the first five working months since he was allowed back to £15,900 worth of allowances, plus £1,329 travel costs. Lord Hanningfield has not spoken in the House of Lords since he was sentenced to nine months in prison in 2011 for fraudulent claims."

ttosca Wed 13-Mar-13 23:47:45

'Bone idle bitches who need a good beating': Conservative councillor faces demands to resign after insulting Costa Coffee staff on Facebook

Women's group horrified by Peter Chapman's comments
Others urge him to resign from Weymouth and Portland Borough Council
Mr Chapman says his comment was not made in public

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2289150/Peter-Chapman-Conservative-councillor-faces-demands-resign-insulting-Costa-Coffee-staff-Facebook.html

MechanicalTheatre Wed 13-Mar-13 23:52:32

I hate the Tories as much as the next person, but to suggest that IDS is some sort of secret Nazi is a bit rich and makes your argument seem very week.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the phrase "work gives you freedom" because essentially it does. Yes, if you think about it long enough, it has unfortunate nazi connotations. But I hardly think he's about to start rounding people up.

ttosca Thu 14-Mar-13 00:02:38

I don't mean to imply that he is a secret Nazi. I don't use that term lightly.

I think the phrase was tasteless and ill-chosen, that's all. I didn't compile that collection of quotes.

I do, however, think that he really is a thoroughly nasty person with sociopathic tendencies. It's not an exaggeration to say that the way he has treated disabled and poor people has brought misery to thousands, and in some cases, death.

Remember, he is responsible for the whole ATOS debacle where terminally-ill cancer patients are deemed 'fit to work' along with people with severe heart conditions. Some of these people deemed 'fit to work' died shortly after their ATOS assessment. (And yes, these are statistically 'unexpected' deaths).

Iain Duncan Smith to write to distraught teenager who blames Atos for father's death

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/iain-duncan-smith-to-write-to-distraught-1414272

MechanicalTheatre Thu 14-Mar-13 00:10:27

I think to equate what someone has said with nazism when it has nothing to do with it is tasteless in itself to be honest, and a ridiculously cheap shot. You didn't compile the quotes, but you posted them and you need to take responsibility.

You don't need to try to convince me of the unpleasantness of the Tories. I am a Labour party member.

moondog Thu 14-Mar-13 00:51:28

Tosca but who was suggesting that you or anyone else was blaming the average worker for being poor? It would seem to my untutored eye that no caps on housing benefit have in large part fuelled the atrocious housing situation. They are surely one of the causes, if greedy buy to let landlords knows that public spending has no limits in this sphere. MPs with their Noses in the trough-there were and are chief perpetrators from all political parties. As for getting het up about what some prick writes on Dacebook...... Really Tosca, do not ascribe them and their idiotic remarks an importance they don't have

ElBurroSinNombre Thu 14-Mar-13 09:30:51

Exactly my point MT,

A list of quotes by randoms that are taken out of context tells us nothing at all. It certainly does not prove anything as the title suggests. And it turns out that ttosca cut and paste them from another source - what a surprise. As we have now established IDS is not a Nazi - you nearly had me going there ttosca.

The one about gay people being posessed by demons is clearly not mainstream thinking in the Conservative party. So why is it included? They have more openly gay MPs than any other party and have recently introduced legislation to enable gay marriage. That is hardly the actions of a homophobic institution. But to ttosca Conservatives must be hated and smeared at every opportunity.

ttosca Thu 14-Mar-13 11:57:42

ElBurro-

> A list of quotes by randoms that are taken out of context tells us nothing at all.

Which particular quotes need context, then? Which do you find ambiguous? The links to the news articles are all there for people to determine the context if they wish.

> It certainly does not prove anything as the title suggests. And it turns out that ttosca cut and paste them from another source - what a surprise. As we have now established IDS is not a Nazi - you nearly had me going there ttosca.

Well that's funny because I wasn't trying to convince you he was an actual Nazi. Shall we just settle on sociopath?

----

The followis is a summary of Parliamentary votes by party on gay marriage...

Percentage of the party who voted AGAINST gay marriage:

Lib Dems: 7%

Labour: 9%

Conservative: 45%

Whilst Cameron can be commended for the gay marriage legislation, he clearly didn't have the support of his party. Boris Johnson, also London's mayor, compared gay marriage to marriage between three men and a dog.

I might also add that if an MP from the LD or Labour said something similar about gay people, they would probably be expelled, if not at least strongly condemned.

This is not a party which is comfortable with homosexuality, whoever hypocritical it is of them to have a number of gay MPs

> The one about gay people being posessed by demons is clearly not mainstream thinking in the Conservative party. So why is it included?

Because taken in the context of the history of the Tory party, its legislation, and all the other nasty quotes, it paints an accurate picture of a thoroughly nasty and objectionable party - which is exactly what they are.

ElBurroSinNombre Thu 14-Mar-13 12:16:45

Have you ever considered that the world may actually be slightly more complicated than your overly simplistic and often child like analysis?

First you say that the quotes paint a picture of conservative thinking in general. Then as we delve deeper, we discover that IDS does not in fact have Nazi sympathies, that one of the quotes is not from a conservative at all (no 1) and that this homophobic party (as you would have it) has recently introduced equality legislation for err gay people. We could also deconstruct some of the other quotes but what is the point.

Your post does not 'prove' anything.

MechanicalTheatre Thu 14-Mar-13 15:16:03

Look, as I said, I hate the Tories.

But a lot of GAY people are against gay marriage. Not because they are self-hating, but because they basically think "fuck you, we don't want your shitty straight person's wedding shit."

Things are not black and white.

ttosca Thu 14-Mar-13 15:49:09

ElBurro-

> First you say that the quotes paint a picture of conservative thinking in general.

Yes, they are.

> Then as we delve deeper, we discover that IDS does not in fact have Nazi sympathies,

You didn't need to 'delve deeper' for that. It should be apparent on the surface that the quote was merely tasteless.

> that one of the quotes is not from a conservative at all (no 1) and that this homophobic party (as you would have it) has recently introduced equality legislation for err gay people. We could also deconstruct some of the other quotes but what is the point.

The minority of 'Tory Modernizers' voted in gay marriage legislation, whilst almost half of Tory MPs voted against.

Are all Tory's homophobes, no, of course not. Some of them are gay. Some of them are not gay and are supportive of gay rights.

I'm not claiming anything is black & white, as you say I am. I'm painting an overall picture, and that is of a reactionary party which has consistently shat on the poorest and most vulnerable, the disabled, and single-women, and has consistently attacked welfare and public services, whilst consistently helping out their rich mates.

If you don't think any pattern can be discerned from those quotes or the destructive effects of what the Tories have already done in under three years in power then it's you who needs to open your eyes.

Any party which gives a tax break to millionaires whilst removing support for disabled and terminally ill people and whilst overseeing child poverty rise to 50% by 2015 is a nasty party, through and through.

They are sociopaths and the sooner they die an electoral death, the better.

moondog Thu 14-Mar-13 16:06:28

I don't like this Orwellain thoughtcrime notion either.
Why does everyone have to endorse everyone else's choices?
Like gay marriage? Not agreeing with it doesn't make you evil. It just meet you don't agree with it.

I don't agree with the Catholic church or Islam on many points.
It doesn't mean I am a jackbooted Fascist ready to kick in people's heads.
On the contrary. I shared many an iftar with Muslim friends and been to the mosque a few times.

I still don't agree with a lot of what it is about.

What is your desired response to people who say things you don't agree with Tosca? Your venom makes you look even worse than they do and it's a shame because if you stopped frothing, I am sure you have some interesting and coherent points to make.

ttosca Thu 14-Mar-13 16:16:10

Everyone doesn't have to agree with my points. I would assume that most sensible people are against sexism, racism, etc. and have a notion of 'fairness' and 'rightness' which doesn't involve taking away life support from disabled people or 50% of children living in poverty.

If people read the things I post about the Tories and they disagree that they do them or said them, then they are free to dispute them. The first quote about the Councilor who wasn't a Tory is a good case in point. He wasn't a Tory. I conceded the point.

But I think the problem is that the mainstream news doesn't cover these issues very well, and a lot of people are not well informed about the policies of government or the reality of issues like the cost of welfare or tax avoidance. That's why I raise these issues here.

To your point, if someone agrees that the Tories are responsible for removing support allowance from many disabled people, and which, in turn is killing them, and they are fine with this, then that's their problem.

They don't have to agree that its wrong, but I reserve the right to call them a cunt if they don't. That's my opinion, and I reserve the right to have it, just as they have the right to hold the opinion that this policy is fair and right.

ttosca Thu 14-Mar-13 16:21:30

moondog-

Do you think it's fair that there is a 'Bedroom tax' (call it whatever you like - 'partial removal of benefits') which is likely to plunge thousands of people into poverty, whilst at the same time the govt. just voted against the 'Mansion Tax'?

What planet are these people on? In what way can the govt. be considered to care for the welfare of the population at large?

MechanicalTheatre Thu 14-Mar-13 16:21:34

tosca, I think the majority of people don't know what's going on because they couldn't give a shit. I don't think that's right, but I also don't think that posts like this leave anyone better informed. In fact, I think they alienate people.

ttosca Thu 14-Mar-13 16:27:18

> tosca, I think the majority of people don't know what's going on because they couldn't give a shit.

You may be right to some extent about that. Unfortunately, they don't give a shit until it comes around to them - and then all of a sudden they give a shit very strongly.

> I don't think that's right, but I also don't think that posts like this leave anyone better informed. In fact, I think they alienate people.

OK, well, I'm very passionate about this subject. I don't want to alienate people, but I find it frustrating how the govt. can get away with such harmful policies.

MiniTheMinx Thu 14-Mar-13 17:15:30

I don't think you are alienating people. The problem is one of people not being ready to hear what anyone on the left has to say.

Years and years of corporate press spewing out biased anti left rhetoric has left working class people feeling.....well alienated,(not from their labour) but from their own interests.

MiniTheMinx Thu 14-Mar-13 17:17:26

Do people not know because they don't give a shit. Yep, 30 years of being told that individual rights, individual freedoms trump everything, 30 years of identity politics where we all play a game of discrimination top trumps means that there is no sense of solidarity.

ironman Thu 14-Mar-13 17:33:09

ttosca 'I find it frustrating how the government can get away with such harmful policies'. Do you vote Labour? Child poverty went up under the 'champagne socialists'. The labour Party brought this country to its knees.

Tony (warmonger) Blair took us into Bosnia, Iraq Afghanistan and facilitated the death not only of 1000's of Iraqis and Afghans but hundreds of British soldiers. He and the shite-bag Jack Straw orchestrated mass immigration. Which has impacted heavily on schools, hospitals and housing. Why did they allow this? They did it because historically foreign people vote labour, and they wanted to put 2 fingers up to the Tories, and Andrew Nether one of their own stated this.

Why do you and some on here use the term 'homophobic' if anyone disagrees with gay marriage? A 'phobia' according to the Oxford Dictionary is an irrational fear of something, surely those who oppose gay marriage don't run screaming down the street when they see a gay person, as say when they see a spider in their living room.

Phobia is attached to other things as well, it is just a way of shutting people up who don't agree with one view or another. If you say someone has a phobia about gay people, you think of some nutter, not just a normal person with their own views whether its based on religion or not, as regard gay marriage.

I can understand if you are upset about some government policies, but why don't you ever criticise the Labour Party, they did far worse.

moondog Thu 14-Mar-13 17:43:17

'But I think the problem is that the mainstream news doesn't cover these issues very well, and a lot of people are not well informed about the policies of government or the reality of issues like the cost of welfare or tax avoidance. That's why I raise these issues here.'

You could do so in a much more intelligent way though.
You sadly reinforce the stereotype of mad lefty.
Far smarter to do it rationally.
Niceguy's consistently measured, good humoured and intelligent posts have brought many round to thinking differently about the right wing.

Bedroom Tax?
I don't really see why I should pay for people to live in homes that are too large for them whilst others have no homes, no.
Is that a thoughtcrime?

Neither do I agree that those who have plenty should have a gun held to their head and be forced to part with a huge % of it.

ElBurroSinNombre Thu 14-Mar-13 17:55:10

Mini - It didn't take long to get us here did it;

'Years and years of corporate press spewing out biased anti left rhetoric has left working class people feeling.....well alienated,(not from their labour) but from their own interests. '

In other words, you know better what the working classes need than they do themselves. I would suggest, that it is exactly this sort of patronising attitude that actually alienates the working classes from left wing parties. Instead of telling them what they should think, IMO the left should be listening to the voices of ordinary people in non metropolitan towns and cities and building an agenda based on what they hear. This would be similar to what UKIP are doing on the right - articulating an awkward voice that the political classes do not want to hear.

MechanicalTheatre Thu 14-Mar-13 18:01:12

ironman, while the etymology of homophobia might be "fear of gay people", it doesn't actually mean a literal fear. It means a strong dislike.

I have a problem with the bedroom tax thing. I don't think that it should be poor people who are being made to suffer because the economy is shit. I think we need to tax people who have huge houses and own huge swathes of land.

However, I don't think it's fair that some people are desperate for a council house and can't get one while others have bigger houses than they need. The solution would ideally be more council houses but that's never going to happen under this government.

MiniTheMinx Thu 14-Mar-13 18:22:00

ElBurroSinNombre the neo-liberal agenda was never one of just shaping economic theory and practice, policy and politics, it was and is a project to alter the way in which people think. Many people are unable to articulate thoughts that sit outside of and in contrast to neo-liberal ideology, where people are individuals for whom freedom can only be obtained through the free market. Freedom is now closely equated to freedom to purchase, consumer choices, choice of who to contract, who to contract with to sell your labour. The worker is now an individual pitted against other workers to sell his labour, he doesn't care that his neighbour loses out in this race to the bottom.

FasterStronger Thu 14-Mar-13 18:30:37

so which country is a socialist paradise?

moondog Thu 14-Mar-13 18:35:12

ElBurro so well articulated.
That's why I loathe Polly Toynbee.

ironman Thu 14-Mar-13 18:40:38

mechanicaltheartreAs I say a 'phobia' is an 'irrational fear of something' according to the Oxford Dictionary. I don't know of one person who has an 'irrational fear' of either homosexuals or muslims. People who use phases like homophobic etc, when describing those who oppose gay marriage, talk utter nonsense IMO.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 14-Mar-13 18:41:31

Believe me, OP, you can find plenty of nauseating statements made by people of a left-wing persuasion too. you appear to inahbit a very simple little world where people can be separated easily into left-wing + good, right-wing = evil. Frankly my 6 year old has more developed understanding of human complexity.

MechanicalTheatre Thu 14-Mar-13 18:45:35

ironman, do you honestly think "homophobia" means "an irrational fear of homosexuals"? Just because "phobia" means one thing doesn't mean that "homophobia" means the same despite having the same root.

Your beloved OED says homophobia means "an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people."

Aversion. Not fear.

ttosca Thu 14-Mar-13 18:47:18

moondog-

> You could do so in a much more intelligent way though.
> You sadly reinforce the stereotype of mad lefty.
> Far smarter to do it rationally.

I do do it rationally. Whilst most of the right-winger regurgitate Daily Mail headlines without any evidence to back it up, I try to bring in govt. statistics and facts to back up my arguments. I am then accused of 'cut and paste'.

> Niceguy's consistently measured, good humoured and intelligent posts have brought many round to thinking differently about the right wing.

I doubt it. Anyway, 'niceguy' spouts a whole lot of bullshit. His trick is that he does it using moderate language. He even calls himself 'niceguy' even though the policies he promotes are pernicious and harmful.

It's better to speak the truth using immoderate language than spout nonsense dressed up in niceties.

> Bedroom Tax?
> I don't really see why I should pay for people to live in homes that are too large for them whilst others have no homes, no. Is that a thoughtcrime?

<Sigh>

a) The majority of the people (two-thirds) who will be hit by the 'bedroom tax' will be disabled people. These rooms are not 'extra'. They provide space for a carer to sleep over nights or a family member who takes care of them.

b) There simply aren't enough smaller homes for all these people charged with the bedroom tax to move in to in any case. As you well know, there is already a huge shortage of homes - especially affordable homes.

c) The amount that could theoretically be saved - assuming everyone pays, and the social consequences (in cost) don't outweigh the immediate savings - is minuscule relative to the budget as a whole, and minuscule compared with how much could be save by pursuing tax avoidance.

d) It's hypocritical, as MPs - the same ones pressing for this 'bedroom tax' on the poorest and the disabled - have demanded enormous payrises and a *50% rise in second home allowances*:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mps-demand-50-rise-in-second-1446061

---

It's just ridiculous and inexcusable. It's an ill-thought out policy. It's harmful, economically and socially, and it won't even work. All it will do is cause even more misery the already hard-up British public.

Please reconsider why you should support such a measure.

MiniTheMinx Thu 14-Mar-13 18:55:29

FasterStronger

You can not have socialism in one country.

MiniTheMinx Thu 14-Mar-13 18:57:09

"Shameless MPs demand 50% rise in second home allowances so they don't have to use public transport" so well they might, I think I would if I couldn't bare to look the electorate in the face knowing I was shafting them.

ttosca Thu 14-Mar-13 18:57:39

Ironman-

Because people are so used to Red-team vs. Blue-team politics, where any criticism of the Blue-team is taken to mean that you support the Red-team, some people think that because I point out the nasty policies of the Tory party, then I must support Labour.

I don't support the Labour party.

I arrived in the UK in 1996, when Labour came in to power. I have seen what Labour has done. I remember the Iraq war vividly. I was one of the millions of people who marched in London in March against the war.

Tony Blair is a war criminal and should be behind bars for his war crimes.

The Labour party should apologise for the invasion of Iraq, which was a war crime and against international law. The Labour party lied to the entire nation. Repeatedly. It brought the country to war against the wishes of the vast majority of the public. It was a disgraceful act on the part of New Labour.

Is that clear enough for you? I am not here criticising the Tories because I support Labour. It is true that I think Labour was be a 'lesser evil' than the Tories. But I'm trying to get away from 'Good cop / Bad cop' politics. This has got us (the public) nowhere.

To answer your question: I don't criticise Labour because they're not in power. I spent all the years Labour was in power - from 1996 to 2010 - criticizing them for the Iraq war, their secret trials, their snooping and authoritarian tendencies.

The threat at the moment are the Tories. That's why I criticise them and not Labour.

moondog Thu 14-Mar-13 18:59:13

Once again, Mini, the great unwashed voted them in.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 14-Mar-13 19:02:14

As the parent of a child with disabilities I'm getting decidedly pissed off with lefites who had nothing whatever to say about the innumerable ways in which we got fucked over with Labour in power suddenly co-opting our concerns and problems to justify their political hatreds. Fiona Millar et al. Total gobshites.

ElBurroSinNombre Thu 14-Mar-13 19:02:55

There you go again Mini,
The masses have all been fooled by the neo liberals, but not you, oh no - you know the truth.
Have you ever considered that the working classes actually like the material wealth that neo liberalism has delivered. They have far more 'stuff' now than ever before and more choice about where and what to consume. If you are old enough, just think back to the 70s and what things people had in their houses then compared to now. As I said before, if you want to build a credible left wing movement you need to start listening to what the working classes actually want. I someonewhat doubt that it is the humourless utopia where dissent is not allowed that some on here seem to want.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 14-Mar-13 19:03:16

Lefites? Lefties, obviously. Lefites sound like they might be something quite pleasant. Definitely not what we are dealing with here.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Mar-13 19:04:36

You are funny Ttosca. You should apply for a job with the Conservative Party, I think you could win them a lot of votes!

You do realise that labour are the only alternative, and at the moment, there is absolutely no evidence at all that they would make a better job of running the country?

If you get your way and get the Tories out of power, you aren't exactly leaving us with a viable alternative. Why don't you start your own party, and promote some ideals and solutions instead of bitching about what you done like all the time. It really can't be good for your health to have this much hatred against your own government inside you.

ttosca Thu 14-Mar-13 19:11:04

> You do realise that labour are the only alternative, and at the moment, there is absolutely no evidence at all that they would make a better job of running the country?

The alternative is not just Parties, but policies. If the public bring real pressure to whoever is in power, we can shape the nature of politics. We can get rid of the objectionable policies and we can bring in positive policies.

This isn't theoretical or wishful thinking. It's historical fact. When the people demand it, it will come.

> You do realise that labour are the only alternative, and at the moment, there is absolutely no evidence at all that they would make a better job of running the country?

Practically anyone could run the country better at the moment than the Tories. Our economy is performing worse than most of europe and we're possibly headed for a historically unprecedented triple-dip recession. We've already been in the longest recorded slump in history. Anyone would be better.

MechanicalTheatre Thu 14-Mar-13 19:15:10

Karlos, you know, there's no need to slip in personal digs. I'm a lefty and I am perfectly pleasant. I sing and dance and skip down the street. I educate children and sometimes bad stuff happens to them and I go home and cry.

MiniTheMinx Thu 14-Mar-13 19:17:39

>Once again, Mini, the great unwashed voted them in

Moondog who are these great unwashed? I don't know any, do you?

I voted labour last time and the time before because they are the lesser of two evils, not because I support labour. In reference to ElBurroSinNombre labour should support us, not we them smile

Blair has done more harm to reformist/left politics than any Tory could ever have hoped to.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim I would be interested to know more about why you think New labour harmed the welfare/services to children with disabilities and their families.

MiniTheMinx Thu 14-Mar-13 19:28:41

ElBurroSinNombre neo-liberalism has not delivered prosperity to working class people. We have huge levels of unemployment and the gap btw the richest and poorest is as wide as it was during the 1920's. The employment rights that those who went before us fought hard to win are being eroded and even in families where both parents work, it is getting progressively more difficult to meet the basic costs of living. That is without adding in privatisation and rationalisation of health, failing schools, a legal system that favours the wealthy, lack of democracy with the wealthy paying for policy and environmental degradation.

moondog Thu 14-Mar-13 19:34:33

Fiona Millar.
God yes.
She is a dreadful woman.
Her, Toynbee and Diane Abbott make my skin crawl.

MechanicalTheatre Thu 14-Mar-13 19:42:52

Mini, there is a massive amount of inequality in this country but how you can say there is not prosperity compared to, say, the 70s is beyond me. How you can say schools are failing compared to, say, the 70s is beyond me.

Yes, inequality is getting worse. Yes, the price of food and rent is getting ridiculous. But things have improved since the 70s for most people. There are very few people who live without their own toilet, running water, washing machine etc. Life is easier for most people.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 14-Mar-13 19:57:38

"Karlos, you know, there's no need to slip in personal digs. I'm a lefty and I am perfectly pleasant. I sing and dance and skip down the street. I educate children and sometimes bad stuff happens to them and I go home and cry. "
Personal digs unfair, eh? I look forward then to your demolition of the whole premise of this vacuous thread, which is based on precisely the same kind of generalisation as you complain of in my post.
I'll not hold my breath, though.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 14-Mar-13 19:58:25

Actually, "vacuous" is unfair. There are some thoughtful, knowledgeable people here.
<waves at moondog>

MechanicalTheatre Thu 14-Mar-13 20:00:06

Do you really think it's the same thing? I don't. Fair enough if you do though. If you read the thread, you'll see that I have in fact shown a fair few holes in the OP's argument.

It must be tiring being so cynical and coming out with stuff like "I'll not hold my breath". You should try to curb that. You'll get wrinkles.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 14-Mar-13 20:13:00

Of course you don't think it's the same thing. Left-wingers always struggle to recognise in themselves vices they are acutely alert to in others. Just look at the bien pensant outpouring of grief over that appalling Pryce woman.

MiniTheMinx Thu 14-Mar-13 20:14:09

KarlosKKrinkelbeim I asked you a question because I am interested in listening to your opinion, I can't say I will agree with your opinion but I won't discredit your lived experience. BUT you are just rude and resort to throwing around insults. The thing I find so difficult in trying to listen (I have just been accused of not doing so) is that those on the right are not very good at communicating much beyond insults and personal anecdote.

I had running water in the 70's, fitted carpets, cars, TVs, holidays.......( thats my one personal anecdote for the day!)

MechanicalTheatre Thu 14-Mar-13 20:17:11

Wowzers, KKK, nice generalising there.

You are very shit at arguing. That's my personal insult for the day. It's just too easy to trip people like you up, so I shan't bother. It's no fun that way.

NicholasTeakozy Thu 14-Mar-13 20:17:20

niceguy2 Wed 13-Mar-13 14:36:10

(Camerwrong is) ... a millionaire in his own right

No he fucking isn't. His tax dodging dad was. But the shiny headed fuckwit and all round misogynist married into the Astor family and further enhanced the fambly fortune that way.

But then, any lie that suits your agenda is fair enough.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 14-Mar-13 20:38:46

I have been on MN for quite some time. I have tried on many occasions to reason with the left-wing tribal mindset. I have given up, for reasons which will be obvious to anyone who approaches threads like this one with anything approaching an open mind. Now I just take the piss out of it. Much mor rewarding.
I will simply point out one more contradiction; this site is rich in threads on the theme of how Tories are evil, cunts, should have their heads kicked in etc (not exaggerating on that last one btw). the lefties pile in - it's hilarious. Yet a relatively mild piss-take such as mine above produces howls of outrage about personal insult.
No wonder your lot are no good at winning at elections. You're wetter than Manchester.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 14-Mar-13 20:40:51

"the shiny headed fuckwit and all round misogynist "
no doubt this is moderate and well-reasonsed analysis, to the average Guardian-reading MN'er. God.

moondog Thu 14-Mar-13 21:43:45

Karlos, people who can't think clearly or independently have some vague notion of lefties being goodies and righties being meanies so then ally themselves to the lefties in a lemming like manner in order to concvince themselves they are good.

The most pernicious and misguided belief of all is that a huge state funded caring sector would right all wrongs. As a public sector worker myself in the 'caring' sector I have no hesitation in stating that 90% of it could be swept away with immediate effect and it would not only have no negative repurcussions. On the contrary, it would improve matters immensely.

Parkinson hit the nail on the head 50 years ago with his laws

Parkinson's First Law: Work expands to fill the time available.
Parkinson's Second Law: Expenditures rise to meet income.
Parkinson's Third Law: Expansion means complexity; and complexity decay.
Parkinson's Fourth Law: The number of people in any working group tends to increase regardless of the amount of work to be done.
Parkinson's Fifth Law: If there is a way to delay an important decision the good bureaucracy, public or private, will find it.
Parkinson's Law of Science: The progress of science varies inversely with the number of journals published.
Parkinson's Law of Delay: Delay is the deadliest form of denial.
Parkinson's Law of Data: Data expands to fill the space available.
Parkinson's Law of Meetings: The time spent in a meeting on an item is inversely proportional to its value (up to a limit).
Parkinson's Law of 1000: An enterprise employing more than 1000 people becomes a self-perpetuating empire, creating so much internal work that it no longer needs any contact with the outside world.

claig Thu 14-Mar-13 22:47:40

'Camerwrong'

NicholasTeaKozy, very good, I haven't seen that one before. Excellent.

'You can not have socialism in one country.'

Mini, are you saying that the whole world has to suffer under it?

MrJudgeyPants Thu 14-Mar-13 23:02:21

Karlos I too have often butted heads with the left on this site. I haven't posted on here as much as I used to simply because I ended up having the same arguements with the same people and, after a while, it all gets a bit tedious. My own perspective is one where individuals should be taking responsibility for their own actions and to this end I believe a big powerful state / government which is responsible for spending nearly 50% of this countries GDP is counterproductive and economically damaging for society as a whole. To this end I only marginally prefer the Tories to Labour and am quite happy to damn them both as big state shrills. Earlier tonight I was on the excellent libertarian blog, Samizdata, where I read the following about wealth inequality and which stuck a cord for me. Although it refers explicitly to the US, it can be equally applied to the UK (and to Mumsnet's lefties in particular).

"I often see postings by friends on social media sites trumpeting the fact that the “gap between rich and poor” (whatever that might mean) is terrible in the United States and we must do something about it.

When confronted with such statements, I usually note that the Gini coefficient (which seems to be what they are referring to) is far lower in India, and yet most poor people in the United States would strongly resist trading places with someone in India at the same decile of income, while strangely most poor people in India probably would trade places with their counterpart in the United States.

The reply I generally get in return is either silence, or sometimes a pointer to some sort of document or video purporting to explain how damaging to society a big “gap between rich and poor” is.

I continue to hold that it is better to be eating well but to know that others are doing even better than you than it is to know that even though you are starving most other people are too. The former will keep you fed, while the latter should reasonably appeal only to those so encumbered by jealousy that they prefer universal misery to the success of others.

I suppose, however, that it is a question of personal values. To me, envy is not a rational basis for public policy, but others appear to feel it is the only one that counts."

moondog Thu 14-Mar-13 23:08:35

Interesting JP.
I was reading some research on salary gaps recently. I'll try to dig out the reference.
What transpired was that people actually seem to prefer earning less as long as there is a smaller gap between what they earn and those around them earn.

But so true about those who would be more than happy to trade places.
As someone who has got aronud the world a bit in my time, over and over I meet people who would kill to be here or in the States.
Hence the current alwarm over Britain being overrun by Romanians imminently.
Who, quite frankly can blame them for wanting to get a slice of the action?

MrJudgeyPants Thu 14-Mar-13 23:33:59

Ttosca Earlier upthread, when asked where you would start with reforms to the country, you wrote I would say heating, transport, electricity, and rent are outrageously expensive in the UK.

It may suprise you that I totally agree with you. Needless to say, I lay the blame for these four problems at the feet of big state government. Heating and electricity prices are different ends of the same turd. Renewable obligations, feed in tariffs and general ignorance amongst our political elite that wind power can power the country have pushed up household bills to the point where an additional 5000 of our elderly have perished this winter. If governnent got out of the way, the extraction of our vast supplies of shale gas could be exploited and energy costs would be allowed to fall through the floor much as they have done in the US and in Canada where shale gas extraction has both made energy cost less whilst simultaneously reducing the countries carbon emissions.

Transport costs have skyrocketed for private motorists and air passengers due to the imposition of excessive taxation by the state whilst botched privatisations have bollocksed up rail too. If the state was unwound from these areas - preferably to the point where enough taxation was levied to pay for externalities but not used for general revenue raising - we might be on to something. Certainly as a counterinflationary measure / economic stimulus, I can hardly think of a better fiscal stimulus than reducing fuel duty.

Finally, my thoughts on the cost of housing are well documented elsewhere on this site but the gist is that if land can be bought without planning permission for £10k per acre but, less than a mile away, it costs £750k per acre with planning permission it stands to reason that one of the biggest costs of housing is the state issued permission to build slip. It is the restriction in supply of those permission slips which leads to the bloated costs of housing in the UK. I lay the blame for this state of affairs at the governments feet too.

ttosca Fri 15-Mar-13 00:56:33

MrJudgeyPants-

>"I often see postings by friends on social media sites trumpeting the fact that the “gap between rich and poor” (whatever that might mean) is terrible in the United States and we must do something about it.

>When confronted with such statements, I usually note that the Gini coefficient (which seems to be what they are referring to) is far lower in India, and yet most poor people in the United States would strongly resist trading places with someone in India at the same decile of income, while strangely most poor people in India probably would trade places with their counterpart in the United States.

>The reply I generally get in return is either silence, or sometimes a pointer to some sort of document or video purporting to explain how damaging to society a big “gap between rich and poor” is.

>I continue to hold that it is better to be eating well but to know that others are doing even better than you than it is to know that even though you are starving most other people are too. The former will keep you fed, while the latter should reasonably appeal only to those so encumbered by jealousy that they prefer universal misery to the success of others.

>I suppose, however, that it is a question of personal values. To me, envy is not a rational basis for public policy, but others appear to feel it is the only one that counts."

My God. You cannot be serious! Is this supposed to be an argument or a right-wing masturbatory fantasy?

The GINI co-efficient only measures inequality, not wealth. Wealth and inequality are not opposites, either logically, semantically, or factually.

Sweden, Norway and Denmark are very equal societies and also very wealthy societies.

USA and UK are very unequal societies and also very wealthy societies.

India is a very unequal society AND it is still a developing country.

You can have both wealthy and have a good standard of living for the vast majority of people without having outrageous levels of wealth inequality like you have in the UK.

Christ, man, be a little more critical.

PeneloPeePitstop Fri 15-Mar-13 08:27:17

Nothing is going to change as long as the cost of living decreases sharply.

That won't happen as all the political parties out there have their noses in the trough of big business and don't want their profits hurt.

Labour hasn't been left wing for years.

I'm not forgetting that 11,000 people have died since being found fit for work in a process started by Laboyr and perpetuated by the coalition.

People are being found fit for work by ATOS then having their JSA claim failed as they are considered too ill to work by job centre plus. Not the sign of a new, joined up, efficient welfare system.

Workfare means there were few Christmas jobs in retail last year. Any work experience scheme should never take place in a profit making business. It's eroding the already scarce job market.

Oh and Polly Toynbee is lovely. Have spent many hours with her!

FasterStronger Fri 15-Mar-13 08:46:09

the cost of living is increasing because the standard of living is rising for vast numbers of people in developing countries and they are able to complete with us for limited resources.

we have had an easy ride in the past. that is over. but it is what greater global fairness looks like. its going to get tougher and tougher for the West.

PeneloPeePitstop Fri 15-Mar-13 09:03:01

Fine, then wages must increase to cover those costs. Yes I do know about inflation but you can't have it all ways.

When there are buy to let landlords making a killing, when people are selling houses they bought in the 90s for multiples of what they bought them for, when utility companies and grocery retailers are hauling massive profit then something is very wrong.

If you don't want to raise wages then state subsidy ie tax credits or housing benefit is needed.

None of those are really workable.
Far better to correct the cost of living.

ElBurroSinNombre Fri 15-Mar-13 09:30:57

Penelopee,

If what you say is true about landlords, utilities and food retailers then a way to correct the cost of living, I am afraid, is to keep wages lower - rises in wages will be swallowed the very thing that you find so offensive (i.e. profiteering).

Personally I think Faster has a good point, we (the west) are in decline, we have had it too good for too long and are no longer as competative in a globalised world that is quickly catching up and overtaking us. This process will inevitably lead to residents of GB being poorer both relatively with other countries and in real terms while a readjustment takes place.

Finally on the point that ttosca makes in rubbishing Judgey. I don't think that Judgey is saying at all that wealth and inequality are equivalent. I think he is saying that measuring poverty in comparison with the wealth of a society is meaningless (i.e. measures of poverty should be in absaloute terms and not a relative measure). By absaloutre terms I mean, does someone have shelter of a habital standard, can they feed and clothe themselves etc.

I too have wondered whether ttosca is actually a conservative troll. If so,then I have to applaud you ttosca, what you do is quite brilliant.

FasterStronger Fri 15-Mar-13 09:36:52

penelop - Far better to correct the cost of living.

the rising in costs is the correction - just not the one we in the UK would chose

flatpackhamster Fri 15-Mar-13 09:40:42

PeneloPeePitstop

Far better to correct the cost of living.

You won't correct the cost of living by raising the minimum wage. You'll create inflation and unemployment.

The issue with the cost of living is complicated and can't be solved by magic welfare handouts or increases in the minimum wage. There's no magic solution here. There are several things that can be done - higher interest rates (around 7-8%), tightly managed immigration with a ferociously efficient deportation policy, and getting rid of Employers' NI for small businesses are some of the things that would help.

NicholasTeakozy Fri 15-Mar-13 10:28:49

You won't correct the cost of living by raising the minimum wage. You'll create inflation and unemployment.

Bosses have been spouting that crap since the dawn of the labour movement and it's been proved to be utter horseshit time and time again. What creates unemployment and low wages is allowing our skilled blue collar manufacturing to be exported, first to Eastern Europe, now to the Far East.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 10:32:28

>Mini, are you saying that the whole world has to suffer under it?

Claig I am keen on equality, wouldn't want anyone to feel they are missing out grin

>after a while, it all gets a bit tedious

Do you think Mr Pants you have a monopoly on feeling this way?

>we have had an easy ride in the past. that is over. but it is what greater global fairness looks like. its going to get tougher and tougher for the West.

FasterStronger but the only real winners are the capitalist class who of course have no national loyalty, so yes not only are American corporations using offshore cheap labour, offshore tax havens they are also looking at growing economies to form their market. So whilst ordinary brits and american people are feeling the pinch in this global "readjustment" the capitalist class are not. Which is another reason why I find right wing rhetoric about immigration so annoying and simplistic. Whilst workers are denied the right to migrate, capital and corporations take flight and ignore boarders in pursuit of profit. This is why calls to nationalism are useful for the elite and a dead end for workers. Class interests should come before national interest for workers, just as it does for the capitalist class.

>costs of housing is the state issued permission to build slip

Mr Pants, no. Those on the right like yourself would argue for a small state big on law. The position of the state under neo-liberalism is a precarious one where the state is expected to provide the contractual laws that govern activity within the free market. Under law those contracting should be equal, in practice they are not. The government permission needed to build is not as straight forward as saying it cost x- amount to gain approval and pass on the cost. In fact the issue is obscured by: political donations and solidarities btw state and capitalist owners, monopoly over land (look into how much Tesco and sainsbury are sitting on) What we actually need is land held in common.

Finally, the size of the state. The left are always being accused of wanting a large state with the death of individual liberty. What most on the left argue for is collectivisation of property and land owned in common. The large state came about in response to capitalism. (history shows us this)

I would argue that the conditions for : freedom FROM (insert poverty, hunger, injustice, discrimination....) must be met before the conditions: FOR (insert consumer choice, self actualisation, happiness, equality...) can be realised.

""The realm of freedom.....actually begins only where labour which is determined by necessity and of mundane considerations ceases" and it "lies beyond the sphere of actual material production" Marx

Where social power is held in the money form and accumulated over time into fewer hands, it is impossible to break the monotony of debt/labour slavery and be equal in terms of opportunity. The notion that equal opportunity and individualised freedom can be sought under a libertarian free market is a fiction peddled by those who hold social power.

The other bug I have is this nonsense that the left make moral arguments. I don't know anyone on the left that uses moralising argument or calls to sympathy. What is interesting from this thread is the collectivisation of those in pursuit of individual liberty back slapping each other over their warped right wing views.

Those on the left interestingly fail to jump to the defence of others on the left......why? because we actually feel others can speak for themselves and have MORE respect for individual liberty and confidence in others. That can never be a moral perspective because it confers no prejudice.

lrichmondgabber Fri 15-Mar-13 10:52:27

The Tories bias policies towards their rich friends. Very NASTY indeed

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 10:52:49

'The other bug I have is this nonsense that the left make moral arguments.'

Agree entirely. I have always said they make immoral arguments. I am glad we at least agree on that.

lrichmondgabber Fri 15-Mar-13 10:53:17

And most bosses are rabid Tories.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 11:01:39

claig you are a very naughty person indeed but I make no judgement grin That is not a dialectic I acknowledge......moral/immoral because it would be entirely subjective! What is meant is that left wing politics is not grounded in moral arguments when compared to right wing politics that calls on people to make judgements about deserving/undeserving, middle class/working class, scrounger/skiver, worthy women/whores, married women/single mothers....

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 11:05:52

I think both left and right wing politics have a foundation in morality and that is good.

Helping poor people who are suffering injustice and poverty is a deeply moral act.

It is morality that inspires the policies that help people in need. Nothing wrong with that.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 11:09:41

'That is not a dialectic I acknowledge......moral/immoral because it would be entirely subjective'

Politics itself is subjective. What you choose to believe differs from what I choose to believe and we make subjective decisions based on our morality and our understanding of issues. There is no one answer, there is no right way, all there is is the best subjective choice to achieve goals which are subjectively ranked in importance.

I have switched from Tory to Labour and back over the years, just as many floating voters do. We make subjective decisions based on the situation at the time and our subjective opinion of the best way to solve the crises that occur.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 11:18:58

we also make subjective decisions about the politicians we see on our TV screens. We have to decide on our experience if they are sincere when they tell us thatthey want to "save the planet" for us or if this is yet more of their spin. We come to different conclusions and time will tell which of us spotted teh "straight kinda guy" and which of us was hoodwinked by the spin.

When they do interviews on TV we have to decide if they are telling the truth or if they are lying. We are told it is superfiicial of us to do this, but we have no other way of knowing whether they are for real. We are not privy to their private conversations, we don't know if they call us bigots like Mrs Duffy, a lifelong dedicated Labour voter was called. All we can do is make subjective decisions based on what we know and what we have seen before.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 11:25:19

>policies that help people in need

Of course Tory policy is about everything other than helping people in need.

I am not really keen on moral arguments in favour/against capitalism. Whilst happy to admit my "anti" capitalist views are just that "anti" it isn't grounded in moral argument but in historical materialism. Which is not about taking moral positions on "helping people" but about acknowledging that through our need to produce the means of subsistence and need to reproduce society the social relations btw classes change. It is the history of human development and it isn't grounded in morality but class struggle.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 11:25:55

We know they now call themselves "progressives", but we have been here before, we know not to take what they say at face value, we know we need to lift the carpet to find what lies underneath.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 11:30:34

'Of course Tory policy is about everything other than helping people in need.'

Do the Tories not send all their bigwigs and their publicity machine down to Eastleigh to help their constituency party people in need? Helping people in need is not the preserve of only one party. Please, let us be fair.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 11:35:21

I don't know what historical materialism is. I know it is something to do with Marx and barks ing mad, but that is at far as I want to know about that sort of thing.

But you believe in "class struggle" and you take teh side of one class. You don't support the aristocracy, you support the working class. Why? Why don't you choose the aristocracy, the Bulingdonian Berties, the Hooray Henries and the Old Etonians? I think it is due to your moral outlook.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 11:43:54

>Helping poor people who are suffering injustice and poverty is a deeply moral act

By whos measure?

I don't agree. Helping people is not a moral act. This where those on the right get very confused. Morality is a fiction peddled by the church, a patriarchal institution that was both instrumental in and created by those who wished to create class privilege.

The working class do not require help, they require democracy so that individual capacities and freedoms can be actualised not at the expense of others but in ways that share the benefits of development, whether it be better health outcomes, access to housing and food security or the right of single mothers to bring up their children without a male head of household and buckets of vitriol.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 11:49:14

'Helping people is not a moral act. This where those on the right get very confused. Morality is a fiction peddled by the church, a patriarchal institution that was both instrumental in and created by those who wished to create class privilege.'

Oh no! These sounds like the words of Beelzebub himself, stoking the flaming fires of red hot Hades, red in tooth and claw, like a red Marxist hellbent on class war.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 11:51:31

'The working class do not require help,'

Of course they do and that is why we have a welfare system and a National Health system, so that we don't have to go back to a time when people died on the streets for lack of funds and because they were born in the wrong household, born in the valleys and not in the hills.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 11:54:22

'they require democracy so that individual capacities and freedoms can be actualised not at the expense of others but in ways that share the benefits of development, whether it be better health outcomes, access to housing and food security'

Have you been reading the Tory manifesto? This sounds straight out of Thatcher's policy of majority ballots for union strike decisions.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 11:59:00

Thatcher championed democracy and democratic voting in union ballots against a socialist shop steward known as Raving Red Robbo.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 12:00:22

>But you believe in "class struggle" and you take teh side of one class. You don't support the aristocracy, you support the working class. Why? Why don't you choose the aristocracy, the Bulingdonian Berties, the Hooray Henries and the Old Etonians? I think it is due to your moral outlook.

The history of humanity is bound up in changes to the method of production and the social relations that come out of that, ownership of private property, ownership over the means of production. There was a time when land was in (held) common. People could graze animals and collect firewood. The trees and the natural world should be held in common, it isn't something that humans have developed and no one person should have monopoly rights over water, wood, grassland etc,.... when a person uses what is provided in nature and through their labour alters that thing, ie I extract rubber from trees and make rubber bands, I have altered the thing to something that has a (use) value when I exchange this for something else it becomes a commodity. At that point under the free market principle I can exchange it (its use value to you) for its commodity value (monetary value to me) for money. Now if I own all rubber tress and the means to produce rubber bands and can continue to extract money from you whilst you have to sell you labour to pay for my rubber bands. You can never earn enough to buy all rubber bands (if that was all you needed to live on) and therefore I can never sell all of my rubber bands. I can either pay you less??????or I can reduce my profit?????? what you should do of course is demand that you have equal rights to natural resources, land and the means of production. And that is what the working class do, they are therefore the revolutionary force in history because they demand change.

The Aristos (who are they? not completely dead but after 250 years nearly extinct) why would I support them? well they do not call for change. The capitalists do not call for change and they are incapable of effecting change. Incapable of saving capitalism itself, only the working class can !

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkm3tdA3IS8
this is a good starting point. Only 11 minutes out of your life smile

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 12:02:23

'Helping people is not a moral act.'

This may explain the real resson why the progressives are increasing the fuel bills of millions of ordinary people in the biggest financial crisis since the 1930s with their "save the planet" policies abd their carboon footprint taxes.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 12:07:54

'There was a time when land was in (held) common. People could graze animals and collect firewood. The trees and the natural world should be held in common, it isn't something that humans have developed and no one person should have monopoly rights over water, wood, grassland etc'

There were always kings and queens and tribal rulers and tribal elders who owned teh most and made the decisions. Human society has hardly ever had a progressive Rousseauesque Marxist paradise.

Young hunters had to listen and learn from their elders. Someone was always in charge. The Greeks finally gave us the concept of democracy, and a leader was chosen by a vote of some of the people, and we are where we are now.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 12:16:02

The Spartans had a communist type system in their rigid martial society. All property was under common ownership, there was no private property. Everyone was at the service of the state and weak children were thrown over cliffs. The Guardian, an elite class, made the decisions. They had a mighty army, but it was hell on earth.

Down the road apiece there was a city called Athens, where philosophy and art flourished and free thinking had full rein. There was a thing called democracy and the world was never again the same.

These two city states went to war and I can't remember who won, but I think it must have been Athens, and we are where we are now.

So when Raving Red Robbo stood on a podium and called teh workers to class war, a woman called Margaret Hilda Thatcher, braver and bolder than Boadicea herslef, stood up and said enough is enough. I will face this red dragon down and carry the Olympic flame of democracy and truth just like the citizens of Athens did when faced with the Spartans in their hour of truth.

And so we are where we are today.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 12:27:31

Plato realised that the free market was not able to sustain fairness of outcome without democratic philosophical rules, contracts, law and policies that protect those that exchange goods/labour in the free market.

The problem is now one of which the state and law makers are the same class as those who gain most from the free market. This means that a huge welfare state is needed to mitigate against societal collapse whilst the powers of global finance undermine the (money/debt financed) state whilst extracting the means to impoverish every state and person it is in contract with.

That is democracy, that is a veneer of democracy, a shoddy illusion.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 12:28:22

That is democracy? *?

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 12:31:30

'what you should do of course is demand that you have equal rights to natural resources, land and the means of production. And that is what the working class do, they are therefore the revolutionary force in history because they demand change.'

But this is nonsense. The world does not work like that. This is Alice in Wonderland and Marx is the Mad Hatter.

You can't enter any of Tony Blair's mansions because he owns them and not you. You couldn't sleep in Lenin's house or Stalin's dacha, because they owned them and not you.

The Romans gave us law and this determined people's rights.

You can'y say the rubber tree belongs to you without the backup of the force of teh law, because someone bigger and meaner will come and grab what you say is yours. That is how the world started. But through civilization and law we are where we are today. But some inherit millions on wealth and some start with nothing. You can't change that. If you believe teh revolutionaries and the progressives, we stand to be deceived, for they will assume charge and then tell you what to do and when you try to enter the palace in Moscow, they'll tell you where to go.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 12:35:26

Why are you Claig an intelligent and well read person equating Marxism with Stalin? because you are being disingenuous and wilfully deceptive?

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 12:35:40

'Plato realised that the free market was not able to sustain fairness of outcome without democratic philosophical rules, contracts, law and policies that protect those that exchange goods/labour in the free market'

But Plato admired the communist Spartan system where a small ruling elite of philosopher kings told people what wa what. Of course our own elite, such as Bertrand Russell and teh Fabians like HG Wells, follow in his very tradition. They are teh progressives who think they know what is best for us and they believe they are the intellectuals ordained to tell ordinary people what to do. And so we have "global warming" which is their Platonic plan for us.

Unlike Bertrand Russell and the progressive elite, I back Aristotle and Atehnian democracy. I back Thatcher and oppose the squeezing of teh middle by the aristoicratic elite of guardians and their progressive proletarian puppets.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 12:41:32

I agree wityh you that of course there are elite cheats and swindlers and gangsters who have subverted our democratic system and who do not listen to the will of the people. They look down on the people from their ivory towers and their dreaming spires, they call the people bigots behind closed doors. Of course we have been milked by the bankers.

But democracy, as Churchill said, is the best that we have got. We have to change things for the better by exposing the crooks behind the scenes, but don't fall into the progressives' trap and ruin all our dreams.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 12:42:54

The rule of law and the formation of the state.....read Gerder Lerner? The formation of the archiac states came about to protect and provide the conditions for private property rights. The formation of the law came about to protect those rights. The two are one and the same and it would be impossible to have the rule of law without the state. It would be impossible to have private property rights without the law to protect you rights to your rubber trees. The point is that not all of human history was blighted by a large state and those laws that confer power on some at the impoverishment of others. This is why a left wing state can be the only truly democratic state because the property is held in common. Only when this is established do you have any of the conditions under which the role of the state can be rolled back.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 12:53:44

>Bertrand Russell and teh Fabians like HG Wells, follow in his very tradition. They are teh progressives who think they know what is best for us and they believe they are the intellectuals ordained to tell ordinary people what to do

The working classes do not need fabians to tell them what to do. What is needed is a joined up coalition of all working people, not these one issue top trumps groups where everyone bitches about who is the most disadvantaged. The feminists, the gay lobby, the trans lobby, the greens, the anti IMF........and so it goes on. Not understanding that not only are they oppressed by the same common enemy they attack each other claiming one has privilege over another.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 13:05:42

'The formation of the archiac states came about to protect and provide the conditions for private property rights. The formation of the law came about to protect those rights.'

Yes that makes sense, because teh ruling elite needed to protect what they had and didn't want to have a battle everytime someone decided to grab what was theirs. So society created laws and arrested people guilty of breaking these laws. That is necessary. Without that there would be chaos and anarchists. Of course there is a political movement of anarchists that want anarchy. But they too are just puppets of hidden forces who want to subvert society in order to seize control of all teh property.

'It would be impossible to have private property rights without the law to protect you rights to your rubber trees.'

Agree, but that was progress because it provided stability and a climate of growth where warring factions were not constantly at each other's throats and destroying everything that had been built and achieved. The alternative would be chaos and anarchy.

Human beings created law in order to provide stability and remove chaos.

'The point is that not all of human history was blighted by a large state and those laws that confer power on some at the impoverishment of others.'

Of course a large state has not always blighted humanity. Now you are talking Margaret Hilda Thatcher's language yet again. She wanted to dismantle an over large state in order to free up the population and toi give them incentive to achieve and aspire and take responsibility for themselves. She saw this aa a moral duty to free people from the burden of a top heavy bureaucracy. Now you are talking her lingo.

'This is why a left wing state can be the only truly democratic state because the property is held in common. Only when this is established do you have any of the conditions under which the role of the state can be rolled back.'

This is impossible. Have you seen teh documentaries on the Spanish Civil War? Have you seen what happened to the properties of villagers when teh chief of the socialist revolutionaries went into every house and stripped all their posessions and paintings from their walls and said they were now in common ownership and took them to his place. It is dictatorship and autocratic rule and teh breakdown of law and order with no police to protect you against teh local party bigwig and apparatchik who confiscates what you and your family have worked for for generations and says they now belong to the state. They no longer belong to you, they now belong to him.

Common ownership is a fantasy. There will always be teh leaders on expenses that you pay for while they make their decisions in sofa governemnt without consulting you.

You are saying that the state is bad and eveil because it makes laws and that teh only good state is no state which can only be achieved when there is common ownership. But this is fantasy.

Of course there are good states which serve their citizens. These are open democractic transaparent states with no gagging clauses and where a free press can discover what happens behind closed dorrs. They are states with a freedom of information act where we can find out what has been done in our name, They are states that look up violent thugs and prtect teh public and do not penalise hard-working honest people by telling them what they can and cannot drink or eat., They are states that respect their people and empower their people and educate their people and free their people. That is the state I want to live in.

That is why I vote Tory.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 13:15:10

'The working classes do not need fabians to tell them what to do. What is needed is a joined up coalition of all working people'

This is where we fundamentally differ and have a different understanding of how the world works. You say there can be common ownership. I say there cannot because someone will always be in charge and they impose what is owned by whom and they will always have more say and have a dacha more than you. Common ownership strips away everything you have worked for and puts it in a common pool, but this is contrary to what every human really wants.

If I were a great painter and I produced a Van Gogh masterpiece after 5 years of hard work day and night, I want to own what I created. I don't wnat Gordon Brown to take it off me and tell me that the state owns everything I created.

Thank God for Margaret Hilda Thatcher. She'll let me keep what's mine and won't take my every dime.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 13:18:02

I don't want to return to the days of the nobility, when a lord could kick my door down and take away what is mine and stick it in his palace and say it belongs to the nation while it sits in his palace and not my humble abode.

I believe in freedom, in Athenian democracy, in the rights of the squeezed middle and in Margaret Hilda Thatcher.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 13:19:11

As far as I am concerned, ranting, raving Red Robbo and his red brigades can take a running jump

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 13:32:30

And that is also why I choose to read the Daily Mail

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 13:36:22

>"Of course a large state....... take responsibility for themselves. She saw this aa a moral duty to free people from the burden of a top heavy bureaucracy. Now you are talking her lingo"

But conversely what she created was a situation where all that stood btw the monopoly tendency of capitalism and the impoverishment of working class people is the equally impoverished state, stretched to breaking point because of the need to mitigate against the huge welfare crisis that free markets have created. That state is now not democratic and works in the interests of global finance whilst walking a dangerous line btw meeting/not meeting and putting down disquiet and riot with state funded privately provided and profit driven military might. Look at chille and south america for what Thatcher and co' achieved in their sucking up to corporate interests.

As for requisitioning peoples knickers and all manner of small fry personal belongings.....that is clutching at straws.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 13:53:35

'As for requisitioning peoples knickers and all manner of small fry personal belongings'

It wasn't there knickers. They are easily replaceable. It was their paintings, their jewellery, their wealth - things acquired by families over generations. It was highway robbery by apparatchiks at the point of a gun. Innocent defenceless people robbed by party hardmen prepared to enact violence. It was disgraceful and I don't ever want to live like that.

'That state is now not democratic'

We are lucky to live in a good state with the rule of law. Yes, there are many things wrong with our state but one great thing is that the free press exposes the gagging clauses and teh shocking stories of patients having to drink from vases and lie in their faeces in our taxpayer funded hospitals. There are great people in our country who continue to expose what is going on and we hope that improvement will be teh result.

Yes global fiance is too powerful. But solving that will not be so easy as their power is immesne. But let's not give up hope, let's jkeep exposing what is happening and hope that someone sorts it out.

I think you are wrong about our welfare state.

You seem to think that the welfare state was created by capitalists out of their good will and is a sign of the failure of capitalism i.e. that if capitalism worked then there would be no need for a welfare state. I disagree with that. Your real raw capitalist don't give a shit about anyone, so they would not create a welfare state because they cared that capitalism was failing to provide for people.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 14:02:00

hahhahahah, no. CapitaLISM not CapitaLISTS have created the conditions under which welfare provision is needed. The greedy bastards wouldn't care if everyone starved as long as they worked and consumed while they did it !!

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 14:03:05

I'm now laughing at the thought of Phillip Green giving his money to the UK government begging them to feed the poor

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 14:12:05

OK thanks for explaining that. I didn't realise what your position was.

But I still think it is wrong. The conditions in 1880 were much worse than thiose in 1945 and yet there was no welfare state then.

I saw Ken Loach on TV and I like and admire him, but I think he is wrong about the welfare state. I think it was created by the elite and not teh workers in order to unite teh people in an effort to rebuild a destroyed nation after the war. I think the elite wanted strength through unity. Also the welath that capitalism was capable of generating meant that a welfare state was a possibility. The elite had a postwar consenus that lasted until the seventies and with Thatcher they changed their philosophy.

I think we are now seeing the elite's plan to scale back and wind down our welfare state and reverse many of the benefits that we had become used to.

Capitalism is richer now than it was in 1945, but the philosophy has now changed and we will see a rolling back of our rights. New Labour can pretend all they like, but they were part of it and inherited Thatcher's mantle.

PeneloPeePitstop Fri 15-Mar-13 14:28:38

Correct the cost of living if raising wages will increase inflation.

In that can anyone justify the cost of housing? Buy to let landlords profit ridiculously which drives up housing benefit and house prices. So profits over a certain level (note profit - mortgage interest, repairs are tax deductible) should be taxed more highly to correct house prices. When the mortgage is paid they will still have their asset for their pension, and they can still make some money from letting, but not be milking the taxpayer.

Energy firms making billions in profits - again not saying they shouldn't make any money but over a certain level whack up the tax. Same with water rates, grocery retailers...

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 14:40:47

>But I still think it is wrong. The conditions in 1880 were much worse than thiose in 1945 and yet there was no welfare state then.

The conditions in the factories were appalling and much of this was written about by Engles in "The Condition of the Working Class in England" I think written in about 1850 ish. www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/condition-working-class/ you can read the whole book here smile

Then came the chartist movement and a lot of working class agitation for change, the french revolution, the paris commune, unrest in Germany so on....all the way through to the eventual crisis and depression of the 30's which was caused by the capitalists greed for profit over paying wages. A crisis of no demand.

What was the response? well Roosevelt went to the elite and told them cough up or be prepared for the communists to come knocking. He levied 90% taxes, invested the money on creating social welfare and investment into infrastructure and building. It worked. Same here, after the war we have embedded liberalism (social democracy) with keynesian economics and we had boom.

Which is why the greed of the capitalists create welfare need and the crisis and only the working class can save capitalism doom.

The elite never wanted welfare and the NHS, it was demanded of them because it was necessary to stop the commies, it also prevented the almost certain cyclical crisis and actually it was beneficial to the capitalists because enriched workers spend money.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 14:44:07

PeneloPeePitstop

yy, a huge racket with private landlords cashing in on tax payers money.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 14:46:49

Yes, good points, the elite did fear communism, unless you believe the conspiracy theories that the elite encouraged communism - with Marx and Engels in London writing the Communist Manifesto.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 14:50:31

Ken Loach was on Newsnight and he said something like the welfare state was soon taken over by the old elite and the Labour Party let it happen. I don't know enough about it so I didn't get teh full picture.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 14:54:31

I don't believe the conspiracy theories, some nut jon ne-cons are going about the web claiming that Marx was a secret illuminati figure and a attended the free masons. Really??? na, absolutely no proof of this and to be honest his down time in london was either sent inspecting boils, drinking too much or hiding from debt collectors.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 14:54:52

nut job (obv)

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 14:56:45

Do you realise that the neo-cons come from Trotskyist roots?

It's a funny old world and not what it seems.

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 15:01:46

The only sensible thing to come out from the neo-cons is the exposure they are giving to how money comes into effect and the relationship btw the creation of money and debt.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 15:05:40

No that is conspiracy theorists and ordinary people exposing that. The neo-cons aren't thiose people. The neo-cons are an elite group of people who don't expose those type of things. The neo-cons are mainstream Fox News types, not conspiracy theorist ordinary people.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 15:07:14

The neo-cons work for the bankers, they don't want to expose them.

ironman Fri 15-Mar-13 15:16:23

claig You spoke about the 'free press' we won't have a free press if Clegg and that idiot Miliband get there way. Blair wanted to shackle the press also.
Looks like Cameron's out on his own on this one.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 15:19:10

Yes, ironman, it's getting interesting. The progressives want more controls on the free press and Cameron is on the side of the press. It will be interesting to see who wins. I hope they never manage to gag the Daily Mail - the paper that hits them where it hurts!

ironman Fri 15-Mar-13 15:39:06

Claig. Yes, no gagging of the Mail! grin

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 15:40:12

I'm glad we agree on that vital matter grin

MiniTheMinx Fri 15-Mar-13 16:42:28

>Do you realise that the neo-cons come from Trotskyist roots?

cant let that just sit there unchallenged, a few people on the left previously communist party members in the states left because the party refused to condemn Stalin. The party was wrong. To imply that neo-cons are in anyway Trotskyist is misleading.

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 17:52:50

A chart from the Washington Post showing the progression

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/02/01/GR2008020102389.html

The man who delightedly accepted the title of neoconservatism’s “godfather” passed away on September 18 at age 89. Sad to report, the neoconservatism Irving Kristol fastened on conservative Republicans endures, and it is not good for America.

After years as an unabashed youthful Trostskyite in New York City, Kristol claimed that the excesses of the New Left in the 1960s and the crimes of communism drove him into the Republican Party. But in his 1995 book Neoconservatism: The Autobiography of an Idea, he stated, “I regard myself as lucky to have been a young Trotskyite and I have not a single bitter memory.”

...

Praised for his so-called contributions to the conservative movement and the Republican Party, Kristol was much more the personification of a Trojan Horse within America’s right wing. His own definition of the movement he launched, given in his 1995 book, claimed that neoconservatism “accepted the New Deal in principle, and had little affection for the kind of isolationism that then permeated American conservatism.”
Accepting FDR’s socialism and rejecting America’s tradition of minding one’s own business and avoiding entangling alliances defines what it means to be a Trotskyite. Also a strong supporter of the United Nations, Kristol never ceased being Trotsky’s disciple.

www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/2745-the-passing-of-irving-kristol

Describing American neoconservatism as a branch of Cold War liberalism, John Ehrman's new study overlooks the Trotskyist roots and missionary mentality that prolonged and escalated the Cold War.

John B. Judis is Senior Editor at The New Republic and author of Grand Illusion: Critics and Champions of the American Century.

www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/51220/john-b-judis/trotskyism-to-anachronism-the-neoconservative-revolution

claig Fri 15-Mar-13 17:54:55

'To imply that neo-cons are in anyway Trotskyist is misleading'

I said they have TYroyskyist roots They were leftists originally. They took over much of the real conservative movement over time, but their roots are on the left.

ttosca Sat 16-Mar-13 15:16:03

Who cares?

boxershorts Tue 26-Mar-13 11:39:44

yes, Tory Party even nastier than before. Thatcher would not do some of the things Duncam Smith is doing

ttosca Sat 30-Mar-13 14:28:37

IDS is the vilest of the vilest.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now