I know I'm being unreasonable...

(79 Posts)
thesnootyfox Thu 10-Jan-13 23:00:27

But I really find young people (under 25) who have Tory values very very annoying.

claig Thu 10-Jan-13 23:20:01

So you find the majority of people under 25 annoying?
Stop being so snooty and accept that it is a free country and people have different views to you. Not everybody is a Guardianista and the majority of people under 25 read the Daily Mail and the Sun rather than Left Foot Backward.

DSM Thu 10-Jan-13 23:30:58

'the majority of people under 25 read the Daily Mail and the Sun'

Eh?

claig Thu 10-Jan-13 23:33:45

'rather than Left Foot Backward'

TinyDiamond Thu 10-Jan-13 23:42:20

since when do the majority of under 25s have Tory opinions? what a ridiculous thing to say

claig Thu 10-Jan-13 23:44:25

since the last election

DSM Thu 10-Jan-13 23:44:40

Claig - WTF are you on about?!

claig Thu 10-Jan-13 23:46:26

Tory values!

DrRanj Thu 10-Jan-13 23:49:25

Young people have very black and white values, e.g "benefit claimers are scroungers", "if you work hard you deserve to be rewarded" , all quite Tory values. They have not experienced life and its ups and downs and are not as tolerant. As you go through life you learn that shit happens despite your best intentions/efforts so therefore you become more sympathetic to the plights of others.

At least that's pretty much what happened in my case anyway...grin

DSM Thu 10-Jan-13 23:49:53

So you think the majority of people under 25 have Tory values, and read the daily mail and the sun?

TinyDiamond Thu 10-Jan-13 23:53:08

I'd love to see your evidence. you've researched it extensively have you?

claig Thu 10-Jan-13 23:53:26

Not only do I think so, but DrRanj agrees! Don't believe the leftwing media hype that tells you that young people are socialists, the real majority read the Sun and the Daily Mail, but the leftwing media and TV channeles keep that quiet, because they wish it wasn't so.

stargirl1701 Thu 10-Jan-13 23:53:38

I think the majority of under 25s couldn't give a hoot about politics.

That is reflected in voter turnout time and again.

TinyDiamond Thu 10-Jan-13 23:55:09

and BTW if I was making up statistics of my own a more realistic one is 'the majority of under 25s don't read a newspaper or have any political bias at all'

claig Thu 10-Jan-13 23:55:24

'I'd love to see your evidence'

Look at the demographic of the young people who choose to read the Sun and those who read leftwing papers.

God I'd rather talk to someone with some values that they could at least articulate, even if I didn't agree with them. Three cheers for values, I say, it's apathy you should be worrying about.

TinyDiamond Thu 10-Jan-13 23:56:13

you are very ill informed. how old are you?

DSM Thu 10-Jan-13 23:56:47

Oh DrRanj agrees? I stand corrected hmm

A good friend works for the Scottish Youth Parliament - an organisation that deals solely in the political views of under 26's. I can absolutely say that the majority of politically interested under 26's are neither Tory nor Daily Mail readers. It's pretty fairly split - much like any subset of society.

TinyDiamond Thu 10-Jan-13 23:57:46

that was meant to be tongue in cheek by the way as the majority of under 25s are children. do you mean18-25s? what is it you mean?

ravenAK Thu 10-Jan-13 23:59:14

Most under 25s have led quite charmed lives. Things were rather nice in the UK until quite recently.

It's not to be expected that they will be politically engaged in the same way as those of us who were teenagers in the 80s, for example...

DrRanj Fri 11-Jan-13 00:00:04

I'm not really agreeing with you claig, merely trying to explain why the young people the op was talking about have Tory values. I am at medical school with a lot of young people and have never met a single one who read the sun of the mail. Talking to A FEW of them, their values can SOMETIMES be quite Tory. But I think this is mainly due to their naivety and possibly their privileged upbringings. I don't think they would necessarily call themselves Tories either.

TinyDiamond Fri 11-Jan-13 00:01:53

under 25s are getting shafted too you know. I think you'd be really surprised if you actually bothered to talk to any. If you can drag them away from reading the fail of course hmm

DrRanj Fri 11-Jan-13 00:02:09

So ftr I DON'T agree with claig. Was merely trying to explain why young people's views can sound quite Tory.

DrRanj Fri 11-Jan-13 00:02:45

So more agreeing with the op really - yes it is annoying.

DSM Fri 11-Jan-13 00:02:52

Don't worry DrRanj. We believe you grin

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 00:03:47

DSM, that is in Scotland. There are not that many Tories up there.

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 00:07:16

'I am at medical school'

The majority of people are not at medical schools and are not the people that the media invite on - they are not the Oxbridge PPEs and student union leaders. The majority of young people read the Sun and agree with many Tory values.

TinyDiamond Fri 11-Jan-13 00:08:06

what exactly are you basing it on?

DSM Fri 11-Jan-13 00:08:21

OH DEAR GOD I hope you are joking. Where are you getting these 'facts'?

TinyDiamond Fri 11-Jan-13 00:10:08

have you just been watching made in Chelsea?

ravenAK Fri 11-Jan-13 00:11:43

Oh good grief, don't go expecting claig to substantiate her assertions.

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 00:15:20

grin You don't need to watch 'Made in Chelsea', they are a tiny minority. You only need to watch 'The Only Way is Essex'. They are the majority, and Labour hold very few seats in Essex.

DSM Fri 11-Jan-13 00:15:48

My favourite quote of the day:

'The majority of young people read the sun'

Brilliant.

Claig - maybe the majority of young people you know read the sun, but I don't really know anyone that reads the son, age irrelevant. Actually an engineer came to my work last week to fix a radiator, and he had a copy in his van. But he was most definitely over the age of 25. And he was from England.

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 00:20:13

'Claig - maybe the majority of young people you know read the sun'

The majority of young people I know read the Spectator, but that is beside the point.

TinyDiamond Fri 11-Jan-13 00:22:57

yes that's right the majority of under 25s are just like on TOWIE. hmm this is of course very accurate because you said so.

I am tired and am going now but I will tell you this.1) you are wrong 2) I have just turned 25 and 3) I'm finding it really uncomfortable sleeping with these hair extensions and do you have any tips for getting fake tan off my sheets? TTFN BBZ

DSM Fri 11-Jan-13 00:23:01

Ah, which will be why the majority of young peopleyou know are tories.

You do know that your social circle is not a microcosm of society, and is, in fact, just a bunch of folk you know. Some people are actually different to your friends.

dickiedavisthunderthighs Fri 11-Jan-13 00:24:32

Ha. From someone who knows the readership figures of all national press and their associated websites inside out, I can tell you claig that the majority of under 25's read nothing.

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 00:27:04

dickie, I think you are right. But do you have figures of what pecentage of people under 25 read the Sun and the Mail and how many read the Guardian, the Mirror and the Independent?

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 00:28:27

' I'm finding it really uncomfortable sleeping with these hair extensions and do you have any tips for getting fake tan off my sheets? TTFN BBZ'

I think the Sun may have some tips for you.

DrRanj Fri 11-Jan-13 00:32:13

Um, I would have thought that young Tories, if found anywhere, would be found at medical school?!

And anyway, you would be surprised. Medical students come from a variety of social backgrounds nowadays, so probably give a reasonably good cross section. I am a working class, 30 year old female mother of one for instance.
Well, saying that, med students have come from varying backgrounds for a few recent years, but the Tories have scuppered that by increasing tuition fees three fold in one foul swoop. So people like me will definitely be put off studying medicine in the future... But that's for another thread!

DSM Fri 11-Jan-13 00:32:31

There is no way to get those kind of figures anymore, as so many people (particularly those of the younger variety) read online versions, and therefore there are no readership figures.

I would never in my life dream of buying a copy of the Fail. Never have, and absolutely never will. But I have been on their website. Clicking a link to some hot sleb gossip does not a DM reader make.

dickiedavisthunderthighs Fri 11-Jan-13 00:32:36

Yes. Based on percentages high to low, based on all national press, it goes something like Metro, Guardian, Independent, Times, Sun, Mirror, Daily Mail, Express,Telegraph. Then similar for their Sunday counterparts except Sunday Times ranks slightly lower, between Mirror and Mail.

DSM Fri 11-Jan-13 00:37:14

Metro readership surely counts for nothing, they are given free! Most people I know who have a copy of the Metro think it's crap, but 'gives you something to read on the bus'. Would they ever buy it through choice? Unlikely.

TinyDiamond Fri 11-Jan-13 00:41:33

drranj you're not a surgeon by any chance are you? as I think claig could do with a sense of humor transplant. yawn

dickiedavisthunderthighs Fri 11-Jan-13 00:42:26

They have a choice not to pick it up or read it. It's actually done a fantastic job of putting news on front of school children who would otherwise have not a clue what was going on in the world. That's by the by though, I listed all national press based on NRS figures to give a level comparison.

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 00:44:24

'I would never in my life dream of buying a copy of the Fail. Never have, and absolutely never will.'

If you wish to deprive yourself, that is your choice.

'Based on percentages high to low, based on all national press, it goes something like Metro, Guardian, Independent, Times, Sun, Mirror, Daily Mail'

Hmm, I have worked in lots of different environments, both low-paid and high-paid, and in the low-paid environments, where people were younger, nobody read the Guardian, but there were copies of the Sun and the Mirror.

DSM Fri 11-Jan-13 00:46:40

Oh, of course they do but would they choose that paper over another? Probably not, in most instances. But it's there, and it's free. A bit like when I was at the doctor and read a fishing magazine.

DrRanj Fri 11-Jan-13 00:47:27

Sorry tiny, will probably go into GP. Too much of a lefty to be a surgeon! grin

DSM Fri 11-Jan-13 00:49:27

claig you aren't even making a point anymore! So, low paid under 25's read the sun, is that your new stance? And they also vote tory? Really...

Someone who considers a reluctance to read the Fail as a deprivation is not someone whom I would consider to have valid, worthwhile or balanced views, so I don't know why your comments continue to bewilder me.

TinyDiamond Fri 11-Jan-13 00:50:56

I'm not sure claig even knows what the point is meant to be tbh

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 00:56:20

'So, low paid under 25's read the sun, is that your new stance? And they also vote tory?'

The Sun is the highest selling paper in the country. Do you think that only over 25s buy it? The majority of young people in the country are working class and are not highly paid. I believe that more young people read the Sun than read the Guardian.

Also, it is not just Kensington and Chelsea old people who vote Tory, since those people are a tiny minority of the country as a whole. Young people also vote Tory, but you won't see them represented in the media.

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 00:58:06

By the way, I'm not a fan of the Sun, but facts are facts and that is the highest selling paper.

As a long time lurker, this has to be one of the weirdest thereads ever. And what happened to the op?

DSM Fri 11-Jan-13 01:02:24

The Sun is not the highest selling paper in the country.

I genuinely don't know anyone that reads the Sun. But I know a lot that read The Grauniad, some are under 25 or thereabouts.

Who are you seeing represented in the media that votes against tory? I am confused by this.

DSM Fri 11-Jan-13 01:03:38

It really is.. but it is amusing me so

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 01:09:05

'The Sun is not the highest selling paper in the country.'

I thought it was, but I may be wrong. What is the highest selling paper?

'But I know a lot that read The Grauniad, some are under 25 or thereabouts.'

But are they representative of the majority of the young people in the country? I expect William Hague read the Telegraph when he was 14, but he wasn't really representative of the majority of young people.

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 01:10:37

'but it is amusing me so'

Facts are not amusing, they are a serious matter!

DSM Fri 11-Jan-13 01:15:44

dickiedavisthunderthighs Fri 11-Jan-13 00:32:36
Based on percentages high to low, based on all national press, it goes something like Metro, Guardian, Independent, Times, Sun, Mirror, Daily Mail, Express,Telegraph.

It was posted earlier, you must have missed it.

And no, I don't believe that the people I know who tend to read broadsheets over tabloids are necessarily representative of society as a whole. However, they do highlight the fact that you cannot be correct, much as nor can I, in a sweeping generalisation of the political views of the under 25's in the UK, given that we both have experiences that differ.

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 01:19:26

OK, we will have to agree to disagree, but at least we can agree on one thing, that young Tories are in no way annoying, you only have to think of the young William Hague.

piprabbit Fri 11-Jan-13 01:19:37

This item in the Guardian says that the Sun has the highest daily circulation, by a very significant margin (10 times higher than the Guardian's own circulation).

The Daily Mail has the second highest circulation after the Sun. They are also the top two selling papers on Sunday's.

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 01:22:19

Thanks, piprabbit. I thought that was the case, and for the Daily Mail deservedly so!

DSM Fri 11-Jan-13 01:28:23

Sundays has no apostrophe wink

I was quoting from dickiedavis who posted earlier, I have no idea about newspaper readership across the UK.

claig - you can't disagree with what I said - it was fact! Unless you profess to know all the under 25's in the United Kingdom, then it is indeed a fact that we both can only speak from our own experiences, which given that they are at different ends of the spectrum, leads to the conclusion that we have no outcome on this topic. We could therefore conclude that the political preference of under 25's is indeed, mixed (that is, if we are continuing to base political views solely on newspaper choice) or we could simply conduct further studies. I am willing to take on the North - say.. from Leeds upwards? Obviously covering a lot more ground than in your district but a lot lower density areas, so it seems fair.

We can reconvene in a few days.

Also, I'm really sorry but I won't be able to agree to share your viewpoint that young tories are in no way annoying, because I know one that is. Really annoying actually, and I've met a few of his friends and they seemed of the same ilk. Mostly English though, educated at St. Andrews. Which is probably where most Scottish tory votes come from wink

claig Fri 11-Jan-13 01:40:12

'you can't disagree with what I said - it was fact'

Facts are like bread and water to me, they are the staples I live by, so I will not argue with your facts. You are right.

dickiedavisthunderthighs Fri 11-Jan-13 07:05:42

DSM I was quoting on percentages of readers under 25, not volume. The Sun is the highest selling national daily.

thesnootyfox Fri 11-Jan-13 07:19:19

What happened to the OP?

I posted and went to bed, there were not any responses last time I checked! blush

I'm not saying that the majority of under 25's are Tories, I think they are definitely in the minority. It's just when I come across them I find them incredibly annoying. As I said I know I am being unreasonable.

I think it's because they come across as not being particularly well-informed, I am never sure if they hold their opinions because they read crappy tabloids or if they have been brainwashed by their parents.

I was watching Question Time last night and there was a young woman on there who was particularly annoying, ranting on about the welfare state and the previous Labour government throwing money at people. When young people hold these views it doesn't seem right somehow and it always makes me think of the young William Hague and his speech as a young Tory. William Hague's speech was nauseating and annoying and I don't want to see more young people embarrassing themselves like that.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 11-Jan-13 07:25:32

To go back to the original post for a second. Rather than get annoyed if a young person holds opinions you don't agree with, why not try persuading them round to your point of view? However, I suspect if you're calling it 'Tory values' what you're really saying is that the young person has made some off-colour remark about benefit claimants or similar.... not that they are espousing free enterprise and low taxation.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 11-Jan-13 07:28:30

Why is it not 'right' to think the previous Labour government spent money like crazy? I tell you what I find hilarious... it's when someone that age tries to tell me how terrible the Thatcher era was. smile At least someone in their early twenties directly experienced the actions of the last administration. I think they're allowed an opinion.

HoneyDragon Fri 11-Jan-13 07:30:59

An ageist, judgy and condescending op. my favourite kind.

thesnootyfox Fri 11-Jan-13 07:39:33

I usually do Cogito. I have asked a couple of my relatives why their fb profile states that they are a Tory. They normally respond with disparaging remarks about single mothers and immigrants. Life is tough for young people they will have to work until their 70s etc and don't have as many choices as we do and it is easier for them to point the finger at a particular section of society. I ask them how they would feel if they lost the right to complain about a work related dispute or claim unfair dismissal and they say that would be a bad thing but are completely unaware of the Coalitions attempts at reducing individuals employment rights. I blame the parents...

DontmindifIdo Fri 11-Jan-13 07:45:53

OP - I think I understand why you feel that way, there's a view that when you are young you should be idealistic, wanting to change the world and believing that your parent's generation just got it wrong and you would be able to create a fairer and better society if you just were able to get these stupid old people protecting their privilege to see it. That when you are young you have far less to lose by a new social order taking from the rich (someone else), to give to the poor.

The majority of people's views do move to the right (even if just a little) as they get older, have more experience of the world, are more cynical about the ability of governments to effect change or that human nature would mean it would ever work, and more importantly, when they start to have something to lose (very few people outside the music and creative industries seem to stay on the left after becoming rich - not surprising when it's your money that'll be taken that you feel you've worked hard for you're less keen on it being removed for hte greater good!).

So to have come to that conclusion early seems cynical and heartless, or just more worldly aware. To have realised that you're likely to be one of those who do badly out of a socialist government early is also annoying to others, the young people might not be wealthy now but have an expectation that they will be amongst the 'winners' in a 'winners and losers society' can be depressing to see when you think that at the same age you didn't!

thesnootyfox Fri 11-Jan-13 07:50:55

Don'tmindifIdo - Yes I think that is it.

DontmindifIdo Fri 11-Jan-13 08:04:42

Also worth remembering, I was raised with a Thatcher government, however if you are 18, you were what, at most 2 when New Labour came to power. They've lived it. For a lot of older people it does seem there was a 'throw money at it, not solve it' attitude to a lot of social problems, I would argue (and I did at the time) that the Labour policy of not discussing the negative aspects of immigration and even pretending there were none, meant they left that space empty for the racists to take it.

Also, if your young, you are most likely to be in low paid insecure work compared to older people. You are therefore more likely to be competing with immigrants for work. You are most likely to be struggling to pay for property as you are competing with immigrants for cheaper properties. You are most likely to find your lifestyle is lower than that of a 'single mother on benefits' - it's easier to be generous from a more secure position and/or are one of the people who are recieving from the society or have in the past, or from seeing that a single parent on benefits lifestyle is shit compared to yours, it must be hard to be in the situation of someone who's lifestyle is worse but to know you are paying for it. That must make you harder.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 11-Jan-13 09:37:07

I think an unfortunate consequence of the last government's policies... and a big part of why they lost the last election... was that they seemed to be rewarding the wrong people. Rightly or wrongly a feeling of unfairness set in over jobs, housing, crime. Remember the woman that collared Gordon Brown and was labelled by him as a bigot? The points she was making were pretty typical of a wider dissatisfaction among dyed-in-the-wool Labour voters.

So your young people who are going on about immigrants and single parents are not necessarily displaying 'Tory values'... they're rather closer to disaffected working-class voters like Mrs Duffy. The very ones, in fact, that the BNP so successfully exploited in the past.

hoodoo12345 Fri 11-Jan-13 09:47:43

I have read the daily mail and the sun before, i find them quite amusing at times, but would NEVER vote Tory, EVER.
And i know i would of had the same opinion at 24.

LaCiccolina Fri 11-Jan-13 09:55:15

When I was under 25 I was Tory because where I lived was Tory and it worked where I lived.

Surely that how most people develop an opinion? Based on experience of where they live? I don't believe half the north is labour for actual researched opinion but because its what they know and grew up with and everyone around was labour!

DontmindifIdo Fri 11-Jan-13 10:46:29

Cogito has a good point. I think it's going to be hard for Labour to shake that reputation of no longer being the party of the 'poor but hard working' but of the party for people who want 'something for nothing' - in the same way it took sooo long for the Tories to stop being seen as the 'nasty party'. (and many on here still find it hard to believe most people don't assume they are just pure evil! grin )

ironman Sun 13-Jan-13 17:23:37

Claig is right (as usual) the biggest selling papers are the Sun, Mirror, (Mail 2.5 million readers Followed by that fascist rag the Guardian, with only 175.000 copies sold daily. For Christ sake who buys it!
I find it odd that the poster finds people who vote Tory under 25 annoying, how can you find a vast group of people you don't even know 'annoying'.
I find that very odd.

flatpackhamster Mon 14-Jan-13 11:34:57

ironman

Claig is right (as usual) the biggest selling papers are the Sun, Mirror, (Mail 2.5 million readers Followed by that fascist rag the Guardian, with only 175.000 copies sold daily. For Christ sake who buys it!

Half the copies go to the BBC, and the other half to the unions.

^I find it odd that the poster finds people who vote Tory under 25 annoying, how can you find a vast group of people you don't even know 'annoying'.
I find that very odd.^

It's just another example of the casual bigotry of the typical Guardianista.

ironman Mon 14-Jan-13 15:56:13

flatbackhamster I must say that here on MN there is not a lot of room for descent! grin

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