"The EDL is not a racist group"

(64 Posts)
IrrelevantElephant Sat 22-Dec-12 23:50:42

Please please don't flame me. DPs best friend is a fairly senior member of the EDL. Every time we get into a discussion about race/racism, DP defends his mate. Says there are senior people in the EDL who are black etc.

I'm not smart. I'm not well educated. But I know EDL is wrong. I would appreciate help to defend my views.

usualsuspect3 Sat 22-Dec-12 23:51:47

Tell him to fuck off.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sat 22-Dec-12 23:52:28

Do you google?

If there are black leaders of the EDL, I'm sure you'll find them.

I'm assuming you do use google and can't find any. So who are these senior people?

maresedotes Sat 22-Dec-12 23:54:45

As far as I can tell they are anti-Islam and blame Muslims for most things. May not be racist but not the nicest bunch of people.

ouryve Sat 22-Dec-12 23:55:30

I'd laugh my socks off if that sentiment didn't make me want to cry.

IrrelevantElephant Sat 22-Dec-12 23:58:35

I googled. I remember seeing one black guy on the news a while
back (leader of the London EDL) defending it?

I just know that I'm going to get challenged on my views a lot, and that I am in a position to educate. DP knows only what he has been told. I would hugely appreciate if someone could give me information/links to educate both of us.

usualsuspect3 Sat 22-Dec-12 23:58:54

They are racist cunts.

usualsuspect3 Sat 22-Dec-12 23:59:18

Just tell him that.

IrrelevantElephant Sun 23-Dec-12 00:05:19

That's not going to help because he doesn't BELIEVE it. He believes the friend he has known since he was 12. Can someone please
Just link me to info of EDL and racism. I know it's like asking for info about the pope being Catholic, but I can only
Find generic sites (Wikipedia etc) and would
Appreciate news stories etc.

Please understand I have come here for HELP.
Not judgement. I want to change a mans views, and proof can help that. That's what I want.

BeataNoxPotter Sun 23-Dec-12 00:06:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeataNoxPotter Sun 23-Dec-12 00:07:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

maresedotes Sun 23-Dec-12 00:10:58

Someone once said "convince a man against his will he's of the same opinion still". You could show him news stories, links etc but is he interested in finding out about the EDL or is he going to believe his friend regardless?

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 23-Dec-12 00:14:16

Ah now this is difficult if there is a leader of the London EDL who is black.

I'm absolutely amazed at that, tbh.

But that would seem to make your DP feel he is justified. I agree with you though! I hope you get a more rational argument, I don't have enough to keep you going on this one.

scottishmummy Sun 23-Dec-12 00:16:03

in time its taken to compose post you could be on google

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 23-Dec-12 00:19:44

Or maybe we could have a rational discussion here? One which is interactive instead of google?

maresedotes Sun 23-Dec-12 00:22:55
usualsuspect3 Sun 23-Dec-12 00:24:09

There is no rational discussion regarding the EDL.

They are a bunch of thick racist twats.

maresedotes Sun 23-Dec-12 00:26:11

Sorry MaryMotherofCheeses but the op wants to show facts and to be able to argue against the EDL. Thought this link might help.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 23-Dec-12 00:26:42

Yes I know they're thick, racist twats.

Let's help the OP defend this view.

my original assumption that there were no black leaders appears to be wrong for example.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 23-Dec-12 00:27:34

Maresdotes, x posts!

IrrelevantElephant Sun 23-Dec-12 00:31:29

Thanks mares that's the sort of thing I wanted.

For me, a google search of EDL brought up
1) EDL website
2) Wikipedia- seemed fairly generic. It said EDL were far right but did not outline the atrocities I believe them to be capable of.
3) EDL news site
4) Huntington post- local news site about Muslims being scared for their shops? Did not explain what EDL protestors had done
5) Huggington post- as above.

If I could have got my answer from google, I would have. What I wanted was an educated, not patronising opinion to help me and DP explain to others why EDL needs to be stopped. The sort of people I could discuss this with aren't going to do anything if I say "oh just google it". Help me form a coherent and logical argument as to why a loving neighbourly person would oppose the EDL.
PLEASE

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 23-Dec-12 00:37:03

I'm sorry, I was in full AIBU mode. I rarely MN but should know better. Really must hide that topic, it winds me up.

You are right in wanting to defend your views.

IrrelevantElephant Sun 23-Dec-12 00:38:11

*Usual suspect*- WHY isn't there rational discussion of the EDL? DPs mate can say in a very rational tone that the EDL is there to challenge Muslim extremism. He says he acknowledges the majority of Muslim aren't extremist, but says that anyone who researches the EDL views and still disagrees with them is therefore an Extremist.

I KNOW this is wrong. I know it. And I'm sure you can challenge him well in a discussion, but I can't. Not without help. I don't know where to start.

usualsuspect3 Sun 23-Dec-12 00:38:57

Frankly I wouldn't waste my breath explaining why the EDL need to be stopped. If you need it explaining to you, you are as bad as them.

BeataNoxPotter Sun 23-Dec-12 00:40:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 23-Dec-12 00:40:51

Knowing and feeling someone is wrong is different to articulating it.

IrrelevantElephant Sun 23-Dec-12 00:42:30

Yes- I didn't post in AIBU. I posted in politics, because I thought I would get an instant reply of "they did X on Y date and said they supported X too" .
Instead me and DP got slated. I am trying to change things. Really trying to buck a trend, and it may or may not work, but I want to try.

Anyway- have had a bottle of wine and now might not be the time anyway. I'm probably not making much sense,
Will try and phrase things logically tomorrow, and will reread responses. Thanks to those who helped.

BeataNoxPotter Sun 23-Dec-12 00:43:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IrrelevantElephant Sun 23-Dec-12 00:43:32

MMOC - yes. I know and feel it is wrong. I can't articulate it. That's what I wanted help with. Thanks for seeing that.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 23-Dec-12 00:48:06

Maresdotes's link is good and pithy.

I could do with a quick riposte to the black "leader" issue though.

usualsuspect3 Sun 23-Dec-12 00:48:36

When the EDL came to my very multi -culture city to stir up racial hatred, they shouted abuse at the sikhs wearing turbans because they thought they were muslims.

See, thick and racist.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 23-Dec-12 00:50:23

I do apologise for my original google comment, I would have thought it obvious but that was cheap.

BeataNoxPotter Sun 23-Dec-12 00:51:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeataNoxPotter Sun 23-Dec-12 00:56:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

usualsuspect3 Sun 23-Dec-12 00:59:30

They did my town too, fucking horrible it was.

But we countered them with the hope not hate day, Billy Bragg made an appearance so it was all good in the end.

Still scary though.

nailak Sun 23-Dec-12 01:01:58

there isnt a rational discussion of the EDL coz the EDL aren't rational.

go on you tube there are plenty of vids look here is a muslim edl member youtu.be/7kC7xF5CHVI sure they cant be anti islam then!

have you seen the videos of there protests? here are them attacking a chicken shop youtu.be/WD5rHx9iKPQ would you be associated with that sort of violence?

IrrelevantElephant Sun 23-Dec-12 01:21:01

Nailak - thank you. Didn't finish watching the first clip, but watched the 2nd. It made me feel sick. DP's views of the EDL is that they are logical, well thought out, opposors of extremism. Not racist, just wanting to protect England. He genuinely believes that, from what he has been told by a man that he trusts.
DP is not a racist man- he is kind, and lovely. I dont want to "LTB" thanks, I want to teach end educate him.
Your clip made them look nothing more than football hooligans. I was scared just watching it. That's the sort of behaviour I wanted to how him they were capable of.

nailak Sun 23-Dec-12 01:27:41

their oops too late at night,

has your dp seen the videos of protests? maybe he should go to one and see what they are about?

usualsuspect3 Sun 23-Dec-12 01:29:13

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

nailak Sun 23-Dec-12 01:29:52

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Oppose-Extreme-Thickness-Oppose-The-EDL/160659503979060?fref=ts

here is a nice fb page, the admin searches out all their bile and posts it.

nailak Sun 23-Dec-12 01:32:09
CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Sun 23-Dec-12 18:06:42

This is pretty typical of EDL racism.... link

Supporters, masked-up behind the cross of St George for cowardly anonymity, making a very big deal about the 'domination of Isam' and protesting against something that is not going to be in the statute books any time soon i.e. Sharia Law. This kind of stereotyping, prejudice and incitement is racism .

The 'they're not racist, some of them are black' defence is utter bollocks. Your DP needs to do a lot better than that! Has he explained why he agrees with the EDL? Ask him which of their ideas he agrees with- he either knows fuck all about them or he's a racist. Let's hope it's the former.

I can't think of the EDL now without thinking of the muslamic rayguns bloke. He pretty much sums up the EDL for me- thuggish and stupid.

suburbophobe Sun 23-Dec-12 18:28:55

I wouldn't even give these type of people the time of day, frankly.

mercibucket Sun 23-Dec-12 18:32:03

It's really unhelpful to fall back on the 'thick racists' card.
Op, I don't know much about the organisation itself but their supporters can be very intimidating at rallies - if you look at newspaper reports of places they've held marches, there are lots of examples.
Interestingly, often it is the anti-EDL supporters who end up getting arrested. Often on police evidence that is later contradicted by video evidence. Make of that what you will.
I spoke to the EDL people who were leafleting our area a while ago. They were making a big thing of the Asian grooming trial that was happening at that time. Their argument was along the lines of 'white girls/muslim paedophiles'. Imo that was one reason why it wasn't tackled for so long - fear of being politically incorrect. But this is one of many many cases of young girls being exploited - and in the vast majority of cases by white men. Prisons are not full of muslim paedophiles/sex offenders.
Another EDL argument is about sharia courts. Again, there is a grain of truth to this and imo it is not a welcome development for women's rights. However, we are not in any danger of having sharia law.
I'm sorry that's not very helpful. I hope some other posters will try to engage with your topic rather than shouting it down.

ironman Sun 23-Dec-12 18:33:46

So what if your hubby has a friend in the EDL. Surely the poor mans entitled to have whatever friends he likes. The EDL was set up originally because of insults thrown at a group of returning soldiers by a bunch of fanatics. It's not surprise that the EDL was set up in Luton, as some of the people of this town got upset with the 35 mosques that were built.

It's no surprise here on MN most things are taken as racist, it goes with MN territory. That and self-righteous hectoring. grin

BeataNoxPotter Sun 23-Dec-12 18:37:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mercibucket Sun 23-Dec-12 18:37:46

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9621319/Sharia-courts-as-consensual-as-rape-House-of-Lords-told.html

This is an article about sharia courts in the UK. It was debated in the House of Lords. It is not an 'exclusive to the EDL' argument.

mercibucket Sun 23-Dec-12 18:37:46

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9621319/Sharia-courts-as-consensual-as-rape-House-of-Lords-told.html

This is an article about sharia courts in the UK. It was debated in the House of Lords. It is not an 'exclusive to the EDL' argument.

ironman Sun 23-Dec-12 18:39:02

mercibucket. The Anti Nazi League are intimidating as well.

ironman Sun 23-Dec-12 18:41:33

Beatanoxpotter. No I suppose they would not have opposed Churches being built as this is a Christian country, and is not the United Arab Emirates!

Who says you have to live in the UAE to be Muslim?

BeataNoxPotter Sun 23-Dec-12 18:48:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

nailak Sun 23-Dec-12 18:48:45

I don't see how shariah courts are a step backwards for Muslim women's rights. 99% of the shariah courts work is granting divorces to women who want to leave their husbands, so surely this is a good thing? without shariah courts there wouldnt be a way for Muslim women to get an Islamic divorce? The courts make it easier for them to do so. Although they are not perfect and there are issues with them. Jewish courts have existed for ages I believe?

Also lets talk about the protests at the returning soldiers, Muslims against the Crusades, or whatever Anjem Choudary is calling his group now is nowhere near mainstream, it is a group of about 300 misguided individuals, that no other Muslim organisation wants anything to do with.

ironman Sun 23-Dec-12 18:49:17

Who said you have to live in the UAE to be Muslim?

nailak Sun 23-Dec-12 18:50:07
mercibucket Sun 23-Dec-12 18:57:48

www.huffingtonpost.com/blackberry/p.html?id=2100461

Some of the issues around sharia courts are covered here, and in the telegraph article

It is partly about those courts that use mis-information - so women are not informed that they would do better if they used UK law, or that they are not protected under religious marriages in the way they are under civil marriages. And let's not look too deeply at domestic violence issues under sharia

BeataNoxPotter Sun 23-Dec-12 19:03:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

nailak Sun 23-Dec-12 19:10:13

you cannot use uk law to get an islamic divorce, so how will they be better of using uk law? they can get divorced legally, that doesnt mean they can get another muslim marriage or religiously in the faith they adhere to they are divorced! The shariah courts require the civil divorce if you were legally married before they give islamic divorce!

I disagree that communities would prefer women to go to shariah courts, communities would prefer they didnt get divorced and stayed in their marriages, and that is what not having the shariah courts would mean, that in the eyes of the community they were still married!

and why blame mis information, I am not misinformed, yet I do not have a civil marriage, that is nothing to do with the shariah courts, I have been no where near a shariah court!

domestic violence issues? It is the shariah courts that allow women to escape abusive husbands,as like I said without them they would still be considered islamically married!

As for the witness of men vs women etc, there are situations where the womens witness is worth more then mens as well!

mercibucket Sun 23-Dec-12 19:14:56

Arf at the idea BeataNoxPotter
No, I'm just trying to inform the op about some issues the EDL might mention so she knows more about them. The issue of Sharia Courts is currently being discussed by the mainstream political parties and so there is no need for the EDL to get its knickers in a twist about it.
There are reasons why people are drawn to the arguments of the EDL. Some of them are dubious and racist. Some of them are because legitimate concerns have been overlooked by mainstream parties imo. A lot of their arguments do have a grain of truth wrapped up in layers of lies and misinformation. Because there is an element of truth, they are both more convincing and also misleading. It is important imo to know more about the issues, not wave them away with a 'racist thugs' wave of the hand.

BeataNoxPotter Sun 23-Dec-12 19:20:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mercibucket Sun 23-Dec-12 19:32:58

Well, yes, you do have a point on that too! I thought it was more about what to say to her dp? Not much point arguing with someone high up in the EDL although I always think it worthwhile speaking to those who for example leaflet. Sometimes it's just about feeling confident in your own views and knowing a bit more about what's going on politically.

chipstick10 Mon 07-Jan-13 18:37:02

I know someone who belongs to the edl, as a person he's really nice. He doesn't strike me as particularly racist. He,s black though I know that doesn't mean anything because racists come in all shapes and colours.

Tortington Mon 07-Jan-13 18:47:08

can i be racist and have a black friend op? Yes i can. If i was, i'd be a racist twat and my black friend would be stupid for being my friend.

having a black/muslim membership does not preclude racism in itself.

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