Oh Come All Ye Faithful, Frothy and Triumphant! Oh Come Lefties, Come Ye to anti ConDem-nay-tion!

(979 Posts)
KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 15:00:34

Fed up of the ConDems robbing the poorest and most vulnerable blind? Sympathetic to the squeezed middle? Have you eyes that can see the horrors that await the dismantling of our welfare state and all that is great and good in UK?

Then you're a frother. This is our safe-space to rally, vent and get organised. You are also welcome if you want to be better informed and/or do something.

#Frothers don't join - #frothers ARE. Check out the blog for information and actions you can take, like us on www.facebook.com/frothers Facebook for bite-sized chunks of frothiness you can read, like and share, or get ye to Twitter and tweet your frustrations using the #frothers hashtag or follow us @TMC_frothers.

Our blog toomanycuts.blogspot.com

Facebook www.facebook.com/frothers

Twitter Twitter.com/tmc_frothers

This is our 4th thread now!

MrsHuxtable Tue 13-Dec-11 15:06:31

Marking my place.

Peachy Tue 13-Dec-11 15:07:37

marking place as I am about to brave the evils of the school run in this terrible hailstormy weather. If I am gone too long, send out a resuce party <<brrrrr>>

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 15:09:23

I'm a righty frother.

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 15:10:36

And you are very welcome MrsMicawber if you identify with the "this is wrong, this is too much sentiment".

Leftie just scanned nicely (and most of us are lefty types but we do have the odd Tory!).

Hullygully Tue 13-Dec-11 15:10:52

What a fabulous title.

Dawndonnathatchristmasiscoming Tue 13-Dec-11 15:11:04

Back again. Keeping an eye and signing things.


Hello all smile

Handy hint for those - like me! - who find it hard to keep track on fast moving threads like this one, you can opt in customise to highlight your own posts in a colour of your choice.
Very useful for popping in each day and marking your place as it's very easy to spot when scrolling through when you were here last smile

[wishes MN had a see posts from last visit thingummy!]

Full transcript of yesterday's Lords debate on the Welfare Reform Bill: is.gd/4dmtyN Next debate tomorrow after 3pm.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 15:14:12

You can bookmark as well? If you hover over the bottom right hand corner of the last post you've read a little blue box comes up saying bookmark, press on that and next time you come on the thread it takes you straight there.

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 15:14:34

I think the problems started the minute they put their party names together. Was never really going to work, was it.

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 15:15:34

Oh yes, I have mine in a lovely purple.

Glad you like the title Hully smile Hunty has an excellent one for the next thread.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 15:15:47


V good point.

lubeybaublely Tue 13-Dec-11 15:16:40


KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 15:16:47

I think the problems started when the Lib Dems forgot their manifesto and Nick got into bed with Dave. So to speak.

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 15:18:03

Nick forgot his manifesto, Dave lied about his to begin with, and poor people got poorer.

Hullygully Tue 13-Dec-11 15:18:44

yy. When Nick bent over and said, Shove it right there Dave, just so long as I can be Deputy.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 15:19:35

It is particularly unhelpful to have an election where nobody sticks by their campaign promises. Just to add to the deciding who to vote for was a complete waste of time side of things.

FontSnob Tue 13-Dec-11 15:20:12

Oh hunty, it's okay because the white paper says that no one will get less benefits than they do now....


KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 15:21:03

MrsM I do declare, you are one of us!

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 15:23:59

I think some kind of law must be passed to make manifestos more binding.

Font but we know that's BOLLOCKS don't we?

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 15:26:22

Oh crap - I think I just had a contraction

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 15:26:56

Why thank you Kate!

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 15:27:41

Ooh! If we could make this a live birth thread Te that would get us more hits wink

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 15:28:58

If Dave would provide the midwives he promised maybe Wihara wouldn't be crapping at the thought of a contraction

SpringHeeledJack Tue 13-Dec-11 15:29:40

a frothy baby in the offing??

<jigs delightedly>

<and marks place>

TheMouseRanUpTheClock Tue 13-Dec-11 15:30:22

Marking my place, to catch up later.

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 15:31:10

How you doing Te?

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 15:33:13

Okay - it's stopped now.

Will try and distract DD and see if anything else happens grin

MrsM, I'm having a homebirth exactly because of that! 2 guaranteed midwives, local hospital keeps turning people away confused

ooh bookmarking, why have I not known about this?? Only been an MNer since 2008 envy

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 15:36:52

I had a homebirth. It was good as births go. The one-to-one MW care was great.

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 15:40:50

Wihara really? AFAIK, here (Barnet) if there are not enough midwives available, and there won't be, you get sent to the nearest available hospital. Which can be 30 minutes away by ambulance.

Am sticking me head round the door. I am here even if I don't say much because I can't make a coherent argument that extends beyond shouting BASTARDS!!

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 15:43:09

Our lot run different teams for hospital and community round here MrsM (Kingston).

It does mean though that you have no idea when the MW is coming to do your postnatal checks as they have to cover homebirths.

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 15:43:31

grin Clown

LynnCSchreiber Tue 13-Dec-11 15:43:54

marking place.

When are you due, Te?

A frothy birth. That would be something lovely to celebrate.

Bookmarking has not been around for that long, I don't think

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 13-Dec-11 15:45:11

< clocks in >

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 15:52:25

Yes - that's what happens here, they send you to the nearest hospital, but it's fairly rural so it can be an hour plus journey and giving birth in the car park in reality... The HB team is seperate, but if the hospital is short they go in sometimes I think.

Due in 2 weeks so a bit early. Might have just been BH.

KnottyJustForChristmas Tue 13-Dec-11 15:52:49

Afternoon smile

Fantabulous title, darling.

Ginfox Tue 13-Dec-11 15:53:34

What Clown said.

Just found this thread, and had a quick peek at the Blog. Feel I have found my spiritual home.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 13-Dec-11 15:55:17

welcome, ginfox

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 13-Dec-11 15:55:50

have you see the other 3 threads ? (prepare for a long read)

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 16:01:02

I'll summarise for Gin. We got pissed off/rage-y/mucho saddo at the bastardisation of our welfare state.

We had a group hug on a thread.

A bright spark said "let's start a blog!"

Another said "let's get out onto Twitter and spread the news"

And, lo, the blog was born and the #frothers they did come forth and multiple, until they were a very great number and attracted the attention of The Guardian newspaper amongst others.

After some days in the wilderness, buttons were added to the blog with petition links for those that wished to Do Something.

And here we are!

mustdash Tue 13-Dec-11 16:07:49

smile you are all so fab smile
<<easily cheered up emoticon>>

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 16:09:45

Can I just say, chances are the the Guardian's attention was not drawn by a hashtag, but a sharp elbow across the supper table?

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 16:13:53

It was a PM on Twitter as it happens. To Zoe Williams.

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 16:17:19

envy that she follows you

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 16:18:45

I don't think she does. Bidisha wrote a lovely blog post too for which I am extremely grateful smile

They're good sorts those ladies at The Guardian.

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 16:19:13

Lefty good sorts, though grin

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 16:22:01

It would be nice to get something in a more right wing paper (they probably wouldn't link to us!) about the 'deserving' poor being hit too, since they're so obsessed with the concept.

FontSnob Tue 13-Dec-11 16:23:11

WE know that Glitter, but then, we are SCARE MONGERING.


Can I just re ask for a bit of spring cleaning on the blog so that we can search topics easily. Can you catagorise on blogger? Might be an idea as some of the blog titles are a little ambiguous which makes searching for info a little harder. Is garlic about for that task as she is clever techy type?

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 16:24:18

Telegraph might. Now, who knows someone who knows someone there?

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 16:27:12

I can do that tonight if RL doesn't get going! there was a start on a tags type set up but I haven't looked at it really.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 16:28:09

sorry - the tech stuff I can do - I know no one at the telegraph.

I realised I know someone who works for TES at the weekend though if that comes up again.

garlicnutcracker Tue 13-Dec-11 16:29:56

We have some analytics on the blog smile

14,553 Pageviews
6,096 Unique Pageviews
00:01:30 Avg. Time on Page
14.48% Bounce Rate
24.15% % Exit

This is really not bad for a fortnight-old blog. Around 6,000 PEOPLE have visited us and, added together, they looked at our pages 14,000 times.


Most frequently-visited pages, in descending order:

views/percent 4,767 32.76%

views/percent 1,195 8.21%

views/percent 696 4.78%

/?m=1 (homepage on mobile)
views/percent 504 3.46%

views/percent 378 2.60%

views/percent 291 2.00%

views/percent 275 1.89%

views/percent 226 1.55%


Sources - where visitors came from:

visits/pages/time 888 3.78 00:03:31

visits/pages/time 801 2.89 00:03:02

t.co (Twitter)
visits/pages/time 593 3.20 00:02:49

visits/pages/time 514 3.38 00:02:55

google search
visits/pages/time 115 5.30 00:08:46

visits/pages/time 105 3.91 00:02:55

m.mumsnet.com (mobile)
visits/pages/time 79 3.82 00:05:07

m.facebook.com (mobile)
visits/pages/time 37 1.97 00:01:03

visits/pages/time 31 3.61 00:02:08

visits/pages/time 21 3.38 00:03:54

visits/pages/time 16 4.00 00:01:19

visits/pages/time 9 2.89 00:02:57

visits/pages/time 9 4.44 00:02:22

visits/pages/time 9 6.33 00:05:06


Mumsnetters, tweeters and facebookers are doing a brilliant job!
We need to keep getting the word out.

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 16:34:57

I have corresponded with Louise Mench in the past and I'm sure she'd at least read whatever I write to her. Is that any use?

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 16:35:49

I'm thinking along the lines of it not really helping to preach to the choir.

Ginfox Tue 13-Dec-11 16:36:07

Thanks for the summary KM.

It would be a shock pleasant surprise to get a positive MN reference in one of the right-wing rags. I'm afraid I only read Private Eye, so have a warped view of the press as a whole.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 16:36:28

Always worth a shot! Are there any posts on the blog which stand out as being ones which would appeal?

garlicnutcracker Tue 13-Dec-11 16:38:05


There's a bit wrong in that.

We had 2,417 Unique Visitors (PEOPLE), not 6,000.

3,514 Visits
2,417 Unique Visitors
14,553 Pageviews
4.14 Pages/Visit


Still not bad, though. If you had 2,000 people in your back garden, you'd notice grin

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 16:38:09

Well that's just what I was going to ask - What should I be pointing her to?

garlicnutcracker Tue 13-Dec-11 16:40:08

Catching up on posts I missed while typing ... I was just thinking the same thing! Specifically, I was thinking we ought to be all over the Femail section of the DM.

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 16:41:57

Melanie Philips, then.

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 16:42:01

I think the education ones would appeal particularly.

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 16:42:29

<skins crawls a bit at Melanie Philips>

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 16:43:09

Ok, I'm leaving work in a minute. I'll pen her a missive later this evening.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 16:43:37

I'm tempted to say toomanycuts.blogspot.com/2011/12/are-you-sure-youre-all-right-jack.html because that emphasise how easy it is to fall into the position of relying on benefits even from a great height.

But toomanycuts.blogspot.com/2011/12/does-every-disabled-child-matter.html#comment-form the every disabled child matters campaign needs the most attention right now as it's being debated right now.

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 16:46:42
KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 16:48:42

Te I don't think they will care so much about those issues. Those are things that happen to "other people" sad

They might also support the housing stuff. The less "we" have to pay for and all that hmm

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 16:51:04

That's why I like the all right jack one. But maybe you are right! It's hard to judge - not being a natural conservative confused

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 16:53:48

Yes I like that one too. But will they get it?

Any more twinges?

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 16:55:09

Had quite a few yes, if it is it's v early stages though. Possibly just false labour I think - just waiting for DH to call me back so I can tell him to come home.

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 16:56:14

Exciting! When are you due?

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 16:57:58

27th - and DD was late, so doesn't seem very likely that this is really it already...

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 16:59:11

The Gove one has a line about 'typical' tory policy so that probably won't go down well!

Just plastered the Alright Jack post on FB. Let's see if anyone takes notice.

have tweeted Femail

blackoutthexmaslights Tue 13-Dec-11 17:26:39

marking place while i'll get dd ready for bed

LynnCSchreiber Tue 13-Dec-11 17:30:31

14.000 page views and 2 500 unique visitors is pretty good going for a blog that only started a couple of weeks ago.

I get about 5 - 6000 page views a month and have been blogging seriously for just over a year.

LynnCSchreiber Tue 13-Dec-11 17:31:11

(and my blog is pretty small potatoes, compared to the big blogs that get several thousand hits a day)

CardyMow Tue 13-Dec-11 17:45:09

Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck FUCK!!! Just found THIS information:

B. Claimants subject to the work-focused interview requirement only:
lone parents or the lead carer in a couple with a child over one but below a prescribed age (which will be three to five, as yet undecided).

They're going to cut the age where you have to be available for work to 3yo. I could JUST about cope with childcare fees if it was when DS3 was 5yo. But if I am having to pay before school AND after school care for the two primary age dc's, Nursery for DS3 AND SN childcare for DD, I will be spending MORE on childcare than my wages AND UC combined.

How the utter FUCK is THAT meant to work?!

Especially when I will have NO allowance for DS3?! No earnings disregard, and they will only pay UP TO 70% of the childcare fees up to a MAXIMUM of 70% of £300 a week. NOT including DD's SN childcare, that would cost me around £450 a WEEK for the youngest 3 dc if I've still got one in Nursery and two in primary wrap-around care. And I'd need wrap around due to travelling by public transport - as I can't drive COS I'VE GOT FUCKING EPILEPSY. That the stupid cunts at ATOS say isn't a disability. Yet it bars me from holding a driving license. hmm.

Can I sign up to Dignitas now?!

CardyMow Tue 13-Dec-11 17:46:22

<<Needs a stiff G&T. But hold the T>>

CardyMow Tue 13-Dec-11 17:47:08

<<Washes mouth out for the use of VERY bad language. And goes to sit on the Naughty Step for 30 minutes>>

blackoutthexmaslights Tue 13-Dec-11 17:54:09

hang on a minute! epilepsy not considered a disability???


LynnCSchreiber Tue 13-Dec-11 17:54:09

all this info that you are gathering - is it the current proposal or has it already gone through? Am getting confused.

And will there be a way to appeal against this?

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 17:56:06

How does the Equality Act 2010 stand up against some of these ATOS decisions?

blackoutthexmaslights Tue 13-Dec-11 17:56:51

can't remember who or what thread someone was trying to find this link


CardyMow Tue 13-Dec-11 17:59:06

That statement is lifted DIRECTLY from the Child Poverty Action Group website statement on UC.

Basically, in the WRB, there is a passage that says that while Lone parents and the main carer in a couple currently do not face conditionality until their youngest child is 5yo, that is subject to change. I paid no real attention to that, but on re-reading it after finding that comment on the CPAG website - it made me stop in my tracks. It is IN the WRB. I'm pretty sure it was in the bit that was passed last night.

LynnCSchreiber Tue 13-Dec-11 18:01:36

Shit, Hunty. That is bad.

CardyMow Tue 13-Dec-11 18:02:50

Blackout - epilepsy IS a disability, but it is only 'severe' enough for ESA if you have 700+ seizures a year now. For IB it was 52+ seizures a year.

And if you pass the ATOS fit-for-work test for ESA, and therefore don't get ESA, and your DLA renewal is due just 4 weeks later, like mine was...then you lose your DLA too. Despite the fact that you may have been, like me, on HRC,LRM before.

So you lose both your IB and your DLA in a month.

Funnily enough - your epilepsy doesn't disappear just because ATOS feel that you are fit for work. Because they aren't omnipotent, and they don't have a magic cure for a life-long, chronic disability...

RudolphthePinkNosedReindeer Tue 13-Dec-11 18:06:55

Just marking my place and saying hello again.

And thanking God I am a baby boomer, it is SO RECENT that you didn't have to look for work till youngest was 16. I could just about manage SAHM but full time work resulted in severe depression (1998) (although SAHH was useless while I was trying to do my job) And that's with 2 kids without SN.

JuliaScurr Tue 13-Dec-11 18:10:29

As dp just ranted said - 'It's got nothing to do with the deficit, nothing to do with economics - it's ideological'
Sometimes it's so good to have a nother commie in the house

perceptionreality Tue 13-Dec-11 18:10:36

marking place

MadameOvary Tue 13-Dec-11 18:13:15

This is for Hully after her earlier comment. grin

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 18:16:08

Done to Louise. So, shall I write to the hon Ms Philips?

blackoutthexmaslights Tue 13-Dec-11 18:17:53

so now you have to have what 12 fits a week???

the bastards!!!

i know i shouldn't be shocked ATOS said my best friend was classed as fit for work as they had never heard of her disability (dystonia)

blackoutthexmaslights Tue 13-Dec-11 18:19:01

wouldn't hold your breathe waiting for a reply from louise, as an MP is she useless

JuliaScurr Tue 13-Dec-11 18:19:56

Have I already said that your local anti-cuts group will be happy to accompany claimants to Atos etc? Really happy. Honestly. They'll have banners, leaflets, press releases, placards If you want moral support, get in touch
coalitionofresistance righttowork anticutsprotests falseeconomy Take your pick
or try 'name of town' against the cuts on fb

And you'll neeeever froth alooooone
You'll never froth
Froth on
Froth on
<repeat and fade>

lubeybaublely Tue 13-Dec-11 18:21:34

Fuck, Hunty. wine

I'm just going to gibber in the corner for a while.

Anyone else fancy a gibber? I have cake?

garlicnutcracker Tue 13-Dec-11 18:22:23

Oh yes, please, MrsM smile She does care about stuff - just not always easy to guess what she'll care about. May as well give her a chance, hey?

I've just written to my extremely Tory MP. Rather despairingly, though, I agree with Mr Scurr that it's not really about what happens to real people. It's about knowing one's place.

If I'd wanted to live in a country with an underclass, I would've stayed in South America. Wish I had, now, the climate was nicer.

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 18:22:58

Black she has replied tome on twitter before - about abortion, about her wearing make up for your OH fiasco, and about Israel I think. But being willing to debate on twitter and actually doing something useful are two different things.

garlicnutcracker Tue 13-Dec-11 18:28:42

Font Snob, I'm battling away at some javascript navigation for the blog. It's very hard - and will never be ideal - because Blogger repaginates according to the amount of content. That's perfectly reasonable, but explains why blogs can be a bastard to navigate!

Whatver you do, don't alter the 'flat format' blog archive. It's the closest to native navigation you'll get on Blogger.

If you want to take over, be my guest. It's doing my head in confused

LynnCSchreiber Tue 13-Dec-11 18:32:15

Louise Mensch has shown some understanding for things like this before. I follow her on twitter too, and must admit to a lurking admiration for her.

I tweeted Sally Bercow before but got no response.

garlicnutcracker Tue 13-Dec-11 18:32:33

FS again - You can't categorise without losing fluidity. All tags are clickable: have a go, you'll get all the posts with that label. Tags can be added dynamically by any poster, and we don't want to change that because it would restrict searchable topics. At present, you create a topic just by writing about it and tagging it smile

I could put a list of tags dowen the side. Not sure how much use it's be, though - confusing??

garlicnutcracker Tue 13-Dec-11 18:32:56

Blimey blush typing.

Better have a vodka break grin

Peachy Tue 13-Dec-11 18:35:19

Oh God the carer's Premium rate released for 2012 is £31 PW

How far is that meant to go?

Bloody incompetent idiots

2012 benefit rates

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 18:39:51

The way to improve the welfare problem is this country is to raise the NMW to a living wage, not by cutting benefits.

That would be funded by the top 1% passing down their massive pay packages and allowing wealth to filter down.

And can I just ask why Councils are cutting every possible corner when it comes to public service, but still paying obscene amounts to their executives?

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 18:41:44

...because they are self-serving bastards?

<I'm sure I could say that more politely, but it would boil down to the same>

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 18:43:37

Surely that is something that could be protested in a personal, in your face way on a local basis?

MrsMicawber Tue 13-Dec-11 18:44:51

Who's in NW London? Fancy a picketline outside Barnet Council?

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 18:48:57

Fiona Philips was on TV the other morning saying £55 a week for carers was not enough. She's centre right isn't she? Perhaps she's someone to petition.

FontSnob Tue 13-Dec-11 18:51:02

Garlic, I have no such skills unfortunately. sad Te mentioned that she could (if the baby doesn't get here first.) Is there a way to categorise via the tags? Shall I shut up now?! smile

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 18:51:22

I'm SW London. We're too busy down here trying to get the council to follow the legal process with regards to hearing appeals and considerations for having a secular secondary school in the borough (Richmond). We are two secondary schools short for the number of pupils we have. Instead our council is championing a Catholic school. This is despite there already being catholic schools in the borough which have an intake from out of borough and only 10% of residents are Catholic hmm

Peachy Tue 13-Dec-11 18:53:20

@Fiona_Phillips is her Twitter addy

FontSnob Tue 13-Dec-11 18:53:26

Oops sorry garlic that was a cross post.

<<Steps away before garlic attacks wielding a **>>

insert something techy that I could be beaten with

Gawd, if I'm not careful, I'm going to lose you lot!

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 18:55:34

The lazy easy way to do it would be to do a post with the tags we use for different issues linking to each one. We could add to the end of the "who are frother's bit" or have a new tab called "topics"

garlicnutcracker Tue 13-Dec-11 18:59:03

I want to see if I can get the native XML to output a list of all the tags.
If possible (laughs hysterically) that will leave posters free to add new tags as needed.

In anycase, you can't restrict tag flexibility. You either have 'em or not.

Peachy Tue 13-Dec-11 18:59:17

here ya go, something techie (podger, Dh uses for spanner jobs whilst rigging) that you could be ebaten quite soundly with grin

garlicnutcracker Tue 13-Dec-11 19:01:05

a post with the tags we use for different issues linking to each one Te, you don't need to - it already does it smile Click on a tag!

Blogger is a very clever piece of software.Every time you think it's being awkward, it turns out they did it so you can't fuck it up too badly wink

garlicnutcracker Tue 13-Dec-11 19:03:00

grin grin Peachy! The best thing about that is its name ...

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Tue 13-Dec-11 19:05:17

No no, I realise you can click on the tags, but there's no page with all the tags currently in use is there?

Peachy Tue 13-Dec-11 19:06:11

I know Garlic...

Peachy the Carers Allowance 2012 is £58.45
The £31 is an additional premium available for carers when calculating Council Tax Benefit.

Peachy Tue 13-Dec-11 19:13:53

Thank bloody goodness

Although from May all I will be doing is looking for a job, 'cept that thread about SAHMs and carers won't ever get work is scaring me: even though I have acquired a degree and an amost MA in my time at home.

HedleyLamarr Tue 13-Dec-11 19:16:23

Has anyone posted this piece from the Torygraph yet? Apparently "it's not about saving money". Righto

CardyMow Tue 13-Dec-11 19:18:32

Still won't do anything about the fact that you can't be a disabled carer though. It's a fucker for someone like me that has a disability themselves, yet ALSO has dc's with disabilities and is a Lone Parent.

Yet, if you are a couple, you can have ONE adult with a disability, and the OTHER can be classified as a carer for the dc's with disabilities. hmm

Which, understandably, FUCKS ME OFF.

So are the Government going to magic away MY disabilities or my DC's disabilities? Because if not, THEM I'M STILL going to be a disabled carer. It just won't be recognised. angry

LynnCSchreiber Tue 13-Dec-11 19:21:45

I have been thinking about this.

Perhaps we need to try harder to make this apolitical.

MrsM is right.

I think that we do the Conservative politicians and voters a disservice if we assume that they would all support these policies. Many of us Labour supporters didn't know about this.

So less Torybashing and more workign together to find those MPs who would support our cause.

garlicnutcracker Tue 13-Dec-11 19:50:10

Te, FS - There was a tag gadget grin

Will continue with pagination challenger, and look at creating a nice navigation page - good idea, that.

I agree, MmeL, about keeping it apolitical.

I would be exactly the same if Gordon Brown was still PM, or if Ed Milliband got in and didn't do something about this.

I'm still deeply resentful that ATOS was employed under labour.

There is no party politics involved here.

FontSnob Tue 13-Dec-11 19:56:01

Can't see the picture of the podger, so i shall imagine it instead, peachy, you saucy minx!

FontSnob Tue 13-Dec-11 19:57:30

Bugger, i went over to that bloody tory thread and now im cross but not able to articulate properly. feck.

LynnCSchreiber Tue 13-Dec-11 20:00:18

I know, there are a lot of policies that were brought in under Labour.

What I mean is, it is easy to do the "Bloody Tories, how can they sleep at night", but that risks alienating those who would actually support the objections to the more extreme cuts.

The press are very good at making this a benefit scroungers left wing heartontheirsleevewearer vs upstanding pillar of the community Tories.

Do you know what, the idiots are coming out to play now.
I'm wondering if being here again is a good idea for me mentally tbh.

Miaowww Tue 13-Dec-11 20:16:33

Marking place smile

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 13-Dec-11 20:20:23

This frothing was never actually meant to be purely Tory bashing

The premise was to raise awareness about the unfairness of policies being brought in by the current Govt and in recent years so definitely including the last govt too

ATOS being one of the biggest piles of poop

FontSnob Tue 13-Dec-11 20:25:29

I agree AF, I wouldn't actually know who to vote for in the next election (I know I wouldn't vote Tory) I don't however think that the Labour govt are particulary strong enough atm either. I think we're fucked either way tbh.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 13-Dec-11 20:33:09

I hate the fucking lot of them, if truth be known

FontSnob Tue 13-Dec-11 20:37:19

I have to admit to (at first, with my naivety) thinking that this Govt may be able to make things better, I actually believed that the coalition might even things out. HA fucking HA, i'm glad I didn't vote Tory, but equally I wish I hadn't voted Lib Dem.

I knew that whoever got it would have made cuts. Perhaps I made the error of thinking Labour wouldn't have made quite the kind the coalition are making, I say that because Ed Milliband is hardly rigidly opposing them is he?

FontSnob Tue 13-Dec-11 20:42:39

Its the depth and speed of the cuts, like they are rushing headlong into something that they haven't thought about properly. Stuff like Gove getting his free schools up and running in a couple of months, without thinking the whole thing through. It pisses me off that they don't seem to want to listen to anyone either. sad

LynnCSchreiber Tue 13-Dec-11 20:43:22

It is really difficult to know for sure, but for sure Labour would have had to make some cuts.

And, yes. I think there is not really that much in it. I would not know who to vote for.

Do you mean here on MN? Has someone upset you?

I am not going on the Tory thread, cause I know how it will be and I cannot be bothered arguing my case when I know for sure I cannot change minds.

No, AIBU. Comments such as "if you didn't smoke and drink you'd have money left" and other fuckwittery.

FontSnob Tue 13-Dec-11 20:46:32

That's the thing isn't it, no one wants to have their minds changed, they are so close minded and it seems to be the same in govt.

Hope you're okay Glitter.

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 20:46:41

Dont worry about that Tory thread Font. I think when people start saying the BNP are left wing and the nazis were socialists it's clear who is a twat and who isn't.

Dh and I were having a right laugh about it just now.

I've never seen this whole thing as Tory or LibDem bashing. We all knew whoever got in would have to make some cuts, but it's the unfairness of the cuts. Why attack the most vulnerable in society? There are other ways.

Just watched this - vimeo.com/17201782

LynnCSchreiber Tue 13-Dec-11 20:52:40

Walk away. Only someone who has never walked in your shoes would say something like that.

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 20:54:22

There is ConDem bashing because they are responsible for the unfairness.

But we should be a-political as a group although individual members may hold strong views. What I like about frothers is that we're multi-faceted.

LynnCSchreiber Tue 13-Dec-11 20:55:20

oh, and when I said that earlier, I meant that we should approach bloggers and politicians on both sides of the political spectrum.

Tianc Tue 13-Dec-11 20:59:56

From the Telegraph article linked above ("Lord Freud plans shake-up of benefits for widows"):

"However, under plans published yesterday, the benefits will end after one year as ministers seek to encourage more widows, widowers and civil partners to return to work...
"The DWP said no forecasts had been made about whether either of the plans would save the taxpayer money if introduced."

Why not?

Either they're lying. Or they're negligent and incompetent.

No professional organisation starts implementing a new strategy without doing the sums first.

ChristinedePizanne Tue 13-Dec-11 21:24:32

Signing in again even though I'm being a bit pathetic and lacking in oomph atm

Even changed my name to show my frothiness. Love the blog so far BTW.

carernotasaint Tue 13-Dec-11 22:24:21

Oh wonderful. i care for my husband who has arthritis and ischemic heart disease and limited lung function. This is gonna sound selfish but i have given up any chance of a sex/love life (his disabilities mean he cant but he was never a sexual person to start with) no social life. ( ive been on nights out twice this year) he came home from his day centre today saying they had had their funding withdrawn and they expect to close sometime in the next two years or sooner.
And then to top it all off if GOD FORBID his conditions eventually mean he is no longer here (cant bring myself to describe it any other way) I will recieve 250 pounds a month ( 62 pounds a week) while i recover from it. The reason for the moan is because carers sacrifice a lot (and i dont mean me i mean the parent carers and the ones caring for elderly relatives with illnesses like Alzheimers) and yet we are shat on from a great height.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 13-Dec-11 22:43:31

carer that is awful, I am so sorry

carernotasaint Tue 13-Dec-11 23:12:00

Thanks Any Fucker xx I am full of admiration for many of the mums on this site who love and care for their children under difficult circumstances. My hat goes off to people like Huntycat, Glitterknickaz and others. I am so glad to have found support on these threads with my fellow frothers xx

EDCM emails standing at 2207, let's get them up even more!

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 13-Dec-11 23:21:32

me too, carer, and I thankfully do not have some of the difficulties described here so matter-of-factly and without self-pity

I am humbled really, and determined to make my small voice heard in whatever way I can

carernotasaint Tue 13-Dec-11 23:40:17

Agreed Any Fucker. Youve explained it better than i did.

CardyMow Tue 13-Dec-11 23:46:35

I'm still doing the TC's vs. UC calcs, but now we are getting into TAXED earnings, it's getting a bit more fun. Just to cover the majority of people's situations, I will have to do about 100! I'm trying to pick and choose, but it's difficult! It's keeping my brain active though, seeing how much EVERYONE who earns less than around £26K is going to get totally screwed over in 2013. sad.

KateMiddlet0n Tue 13-Dec-11 23:56:27

Hello and goodnight. I'm off to bed. I probably won't be around tomorrow because DS is in for day surgery (good ol' NHS - god bless all who sail in her) and I haven't been round much due to doing bedtime with reluctant child who has to be up at 6.45am tomorrow.

I have also give up on the Tory thread. When you have people saying the Nazis were socialists because their party was called the National Socialists hmm and that liberals are not socialistshmm and occupy centre right territory it all seems a bit pointless trying to have a reasonable argument grin

Keep frothing and please keep liking and sharing stuff on FB and RTing on Twitter.

Funnily enough the mood feels much more buoyant today. I think we dipped towards despair last night and now we're getting ready to fight again. Excellent stuff!

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 00:02:40

night, kate

Scarletbanner Wed 14-Dec-11 00:09:00

Marking my spot. Night frothers! Keep on frothing smile

carernotasaint Wed 14-Dec-11 00:28:51

Goodnight fellow frothers Sleep well.

CardyMow Wed 14-Dec-11 01:13:03

God it gets difficult to do these calculations once you have a FT, tax paying earner in a couple - it's the HB that's tipping me over the edge!

I'm trying to do a comparison on a couple, 2 dc, one pre-school age, one school age. One working 35hrs/wk for NMW, one working 16 hrs/wk for NMW.


So far I've worked out the reduction to WTC due to income over the first income threshold, WTC childcare element, Tax and NI paid on income, all that is getting me is trying to work out how much their Housing benefit would be reduced by!

<<Brain melting, but I thought that would be an example that ANYONE could identify with, even the blooming Tories>>

If I finish it before I go to bed, I will post it on here - but DS3 seems to think that sleep is for the weak, and Mummy's pooder is for slobbering on and picking the keys off, whilst trying to stick his toe up Mummy's nose. hmm. It makes it a little dificult to concentrate on difficult sums. grin

As does the fact that I'm still feeling stabby, and I've run out of chocolate. angry.

Night to all that get to sleep before ME!

<<waves a frothy wave>>

RudolphthePinkNosedReindeer Wed 14-Dec-11 01:52:35

Keep up the good work Hunty. Is it too complicated to be amenable to Excel? Nighty night

CardyMow Wed 14-Dec-11 02:01:06

I wouldn't know...Excel is too techy for me, I wouldn't have the first CLUE how to use it. I am doing it the old fashioned way - a bunch of crappy rules and regulations, earnings disregard levels and percentages taken etc, and a trusy old calculator, pad of paper and a pencil.

I have managed to sort out the HB thing - according to my Local Authority's HB/CTB calculator - they now pay both HB AND CTB to a much higher level of income than they did when I was last working FT. <<grr for me, but YAY for those working now>>

However - I just CBA to do the UC calculation for it tonight. I will do that in the morning, then I will post the blog post. I will add a note at the bottom that if they would like a personal 'worse off calculation', to bastardise a DWP 'phrase', I will set up a thread somewhere on MN to do so. Or post my HuntyCat email or something.

I really should become a benefits advisor or something. Maybe it's something for me to look into for the future when I HAVE to work 20hrs/week...

I may have just hit on the ONE job I can manage. Do the CAB pay wages, or is it just volunteers? Where could I get a PAID job doing that? <<Ponders>>

CardyMow Wed 14-Dec-11 02:02:17

I only want NMW...

Tianc Wed 14-Dec-11 02:28:55

Pertinent old thread has just re-surfaced: AIBU To find the term "economically inactive" offensive?

BeenBeta's post at Thu 09-Dec-10 18:09:19 is interesting.

Hullygully Wed 14-Dec-11 08:38:58

I have bin looking into things and what I have found is that it is all a good deal more complicated than I like. I may yet just rant with a blatant disregard for Inconvenient Facts.

RudolphthePinkNosedReindeer Wed 14-Dec-11 09:41:35

Hunty yes the CAB do have many paid employees - I was one. I started as a volunteer, then applied for jobs. I have heard of people who got jobs without being a volunteer first, they'll have had relevant experience, and then went on intensive training. So it's a possible, if there are any CABs left-

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 10:05:25

Good morning frothers!

I'm glad I missed the Tory thread - DH's grandfather survived Auschwitz, the rest of his family were gassed. To say that Nazis were Socialists is revolting and insulting. It lends a form of legitimacy to their regime and that is unacceptable. Or have I misunderstood?

Ok. My argument for the case doesn't help apparently because my son has riding therapy.

Tianc Wed 14-Dec-11 10:34:08

glitter I thought you described your son's benefit from the therapy very succinctly on the blog.

Anyone pretending not to understand that is doing that "disability aids envy" thing, just like with blue badges.

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 10:37:46

Now I'm getting curious. Where was the Tory thread?

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 10:41:40

It's an AIBU about not all Tories being thick. Which is fair enough to start with, but I think it all unravelled fairly quickly - I haven't really looked at it properly.

lubeybaublely Wed 14-Dec-11 10:41:56

Hunty, if you get time in between the various mind bending calculations (bless your heart) could you explain the Universal Credit stuff for lone parents on this thread? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/credit_crunch/a1362674-Tax-credits-is-this-true#28983814 have I got it wrong? I haven't have I? confused

lubeybaublely Wed 14-Dec-11 10:43:57

Glitter, don't take it to heart, or try not to. She's one voice out of many who have wholeheartedly understood the situation and sent the email.

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 10:50:04

Just read it.

I am seriously proposing that MNers across Britain converge on local council offices to say

Cut executive salaries, not carers benefits

If we wanted Catholic schools, we'd ask for them. We're not.


Pay people a living wage, and the welfare bill will be cut

Peachy Wed 14-Dec-11 10:57:25

Have posted the world's longest post on that thread Glitter!

MrsMicaw- absolutely: except when they attack carers and the disabled they know full well they have managed to find a group who can't protest often for physical reasons: whilst taking my 2 asd boys on a protest would have some direct results, I suggest wed on;t want kettling as a screaming 12 year old attacks everyone in sight becuase he is in a crowd!

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 10:59:40

I can't get to my local council offices, it's 30 miles + there are no buses there!

<not a bad plan to keep the plebs away I suppose...>

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 11:00:51

I can however, still wield a pen, so will keep harrassing them by post and email.

Thanks all for the support on there. You know what it's like though that one little voice shouting louder than the others....

Peachy Wed 14-Dec-11 11:07:02

I very much do Glitter.

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 11:08:00

Right, but surely there are enough people who will protest who are not directly affected by the cuts? I care because my DN has Campomelic Dysplasia, so I know what it means to be severely disabled.

I'm hale, heart, in part time work. Perfect candidate for a picket line.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 11:13:28

MrsM - I do think an active protest would be fab, if you can get a few people together in your area at the minimum the local press would be interested, and you can bounce off that to get national.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 11:14:17

There was a hardest hit protest a few months back which lots of people attended. Unfortunately I don't think that got the attention it deserved either.

Can HQ not do anything sort of media wise?

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 11:24:49

Yes, but only the same sort of think EDCM are doing - sending out press statements etc.

They rely on us to make a lot of noise. Which is what we are trying to do with Frothers!

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 11:35:48

I've posted a thread to see how many there are of us here, in Barnet.

Obv I'll recruit IRL as well.

This might sound off the wall, but if this guy can set up a political party, why can't we?


If you look at the comments there's a magazine who are interested in all of this, worth contacting them frothers blog people?

Kate best of luck for your DS today

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 12:12:49

Just sent to my MP

Dear Matthew,

I wrote to you on 14 September, and unfortunately, you did not reply.

Besides cutting childcare assistance, the government has now decided that the benefits paid to families of disabled children should also be cut.

Seeing as Barnet Council can afford to pay its Chief Executive a starting salary of £200,000, I think there are some questions to answer as to why the most vulnerable in Britain are having to shoulder the burden of the recession.

I hope you can provide some meaningful answers.

Yours sincerely,



HedleyLamarr Wed 14-Dec-11 12:37:47

A heartwarming tale. Not. These people really don't like us at all do they? Cunts. All of them. If they apply it to all housing, fair enough. To just apply it to social housing is fucking appalling.

LynnCSchreiber Wed 14-Dec-11 12:48:09

Have posted on the other thread, Glitter. Don't take it to heart.

I do think that she should have actually READ the blog and the article before spouting off, that was just plain ignorant.

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 12:58:06

Hedley In the private rental sector, you only get HB for however many rooms you are deemed to need. So it already applies there, it would essentially mean it is just being added to the social sector.

Why should a family who's children have moved out still have 3 or 4 bedrooms, whilst other families are overcrowded?

Yes but even then it doesn't allow for specific circumstances, ie a paediatrican backed by ss has stated I NEED 4 beds. One for each child.

According to Local Authority calculations I will only be allowed to have HB for a 3 bed. Paed backing and ss means nothing, so we will get that penalty.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 13:07:15

Hedley, they are targeting the most vulnerable again

and tapping in to the Daily Mail readers who get whipped into hysteria by the media about "greedy" council tenanats getting to live in houses that private renters/owners could never afford to live in

it sounds ok at first, but then, hmm

like the getting people to do some voluntary work whilst job seeking did...and we know what we think about that

Is there a blog post in it, d'ya think ?

LynnCSchreiber Wed 14-Dec-11 13:10:06

If they were requiring families to move into other available properties, then I could see the point.

But when a family is in social housing, particularly those with disabled chidlren - how are they supposed to find the £600 a year, when their benefits are being cut anyway?

On how many sides can we squeeze a person before they pop?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 13:10:54

MrsM, in that case, they should set up a robust "house swap" scheme within every local area

so that people are not forced away from jobs, schools, extended family and other sources of help and support in order to have a house with fewer beds

apparently, there is a big shortage of 2 bedders within social housing, so there is a good chance people would have to move area to comply

how is that helping anyone ?

LynnCSchreiber Wed 14-Dec-11 13:11:57

Under these plans, 670,000 households – two-thirds containing a disabled family member – will be hit by an average £670 penalty every year because they are deemed to have a "spare" bedroom.

This is not thousands of older couples living in 5-bed houses. It is 450,000 families with a disabled family member.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 13:17:00

Yes - definately a blog post in that. Especially given how many of those affected have a disabled family member. Really shocked at that, perhaps niavely I assumed most 'under-occupied' houses were the kind of situation MrsM mentions, large houses with only a single person or couple as their children have moved out. Thinking about it, a lot of those older people probably bought their CH under right-to-buy decades ago anyway.

Actually the house I'm moving to is supposed to have been designed for two adults and four kids.
There is a small double bedroom and three single bedrooms that will fit a single bed and bedside cabinet, that's it... the pitch of the roof would prohibit bunks, so I'm wondering quite how you're supposed to get the fourth child in.

It's not a mansion but it is necessary, and the extra penalty because we're 'under occupied' is going to bite just as hard as the £200 a month we're losing.

Oh and is there anywhere I can read about the proposals for widows? I'm interested....

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 13:30:09

There was an article in the telegraph let me find it, www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8952062/Lord-Freud-plans-shake-up-of-benefits-for-widows.html

as I understand it what was a weekly benefit from the time of your partners death onwards (for up to 20 yrs and not means tested) will be time-limited for one year.

I'm not sure how I feel about the changes tbh, as 20yrs does seem like a very long time to be recieving that extra support.

HedleyLamarr Wed 14-Dec-11 13:35:29

Well MrsM, why should people be forced to move just because they have a "spare" room?

Yes AnyFucker, well worth doing a blog post. I would do it but atm I'm trying to explain to dcs about globalisation and trickle down on my own blog. They expect it this afternoon. Sigh...

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 13:50:23

Sorry i was away for a while.
A house swap scheme is a good idea.
If for valid reasons you need separate bedrooms for a disabled child, that should be factored in to any calculation.

Having said that, my sister lives in social housing. She had seven children (we are Orthodox Jewish) in three bedrooms, whilst her neighbors in the same sized flat had two girls. Why weren't they in a two bed?

Scarletbanner Wed 14-Dec-11 14:09:11

I despair.
Unemployment is at a 17 year high and the Tories have gone up in the opinion polls and now lead Labour. What is wrong with people? hmm angry confused

<sobs quietly>

lubeybaublely Wed 14-Dec-11 14:18:51

What do we think of the Labour 5 point plan for jobs and growth (not that it makes much difference to anything)

Ed Miliband keeps tweeting it.


Is anyone members of other parenting forum who could start flag flying there? netmums, bounty, ivillage to name a few?

I've got an old Netmums id - could log on later on and do some groundwork?

lubeybaublely Wed 14-Dec-11 14:24:18

I've tried on one Avadvent but the response was pretty meh but for a few who also frequent mumsnet same as me and who are already #frothers on twitter too.

Tianc Wed 14-Dec-11 14:40:01

What's wrong with people is that as they fear for their own security, they welcome cuts falling on anyone outside their own group because it appears to secure their own piece of the cake. Individuals vary, but en masse the price they are willing to exact from others depends directly on the magnitude of their own fear.

Divide and rule.

This is the precise meaning of the Pastor Niemöller saying, "First they came...".

The only way to fight it is to hold together. <links arms with frothers>

<gets towel>

Tianc Wed 14-Dec-11 14:49:31

Although given your nn, mine may have been an over-literal response to a rhetorical Q, scarletbanner. grin

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 14:50:27

Give it a go! The two threads in AIBU about EDCM keeping quite high - so doing okay there I think.

Labour's 5 point plan is quite interesting actually, some I'm not keen on (where's the detail on point one about forced jobs for the young, is it workfare or job creation? because the difference matters) - I'm interested to hear what the Federation of Small Business things about the VAT drop(s) and the NI holiday, because the Ni holiday in particular seems like a wonderful idea to me.

Long term for the economy we really need to encourage small business atm, especially those with the potential to be employers.

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 14:55:10

Hedley Social support is a safety net, not a lifestyle choice. Which is why, if you live in social housing, and at the time you were granted more rooms than you now need, you should move on to allow people who do need the rooms to avoid overcrowding.

lubeybaublely Wed 14-Dec-11 14:58:16

Um, just a little heads up. @muppetwatch is trying to discredit us... referring to #frothers as foaming flapping fabricating fibbing frothers re: cuts for disabled children


Peachy Wed 14-Dec-11 14:59:11

That's fine MrsM: the stumbling block is that many of those people are elderly and assessing their needs to move on would mean placing them in shaltered accom at a greater cost; watching my Grandad go through this I am hugely aware how ahrd the services try to look away for just that reason.

Plus a lack of suitable placements: parents happy to go to a smaller palce if in their own community and accessible to where dad works (still employed at almost 70) as he relies on public transport: neither option is available.

WRt to teh 3 bed / 2 bed thing very unusual unless an emergency palcement: my friend got a 3 bed with her 2 girls becuase her XH was due out of prison and they needed to move her away sharpish to only available house but very rare.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 15:02:57

Send them a link to the WRF bill and then leave it. There will always be crazies.

Peachy Wed 14-Dec-11 15:07:44

If anyone does a blog on under occupied homes feel free to reference us.

We have 3 bedrooms and 4 children; we assumed they would share then we would move on once I graduated to a 4 bed.

Except I never got to work after uni and we are still here. DS1 HAS to have his own, safe room where he can be isolated: there's an off chance that an accident he caused to ds3 when they were little is part of ds3's SN (head injury) and it's not a risk we can take again. DS3 has to have his own room as he is exceptionally vulnerable- imagine a toddler in an 8 year old's body- and and needs to be close yo us as ds1 is a risk to him. That leaves ds2 and ds4. They will room together eventually but at 3 ds4 will not yet sleep through ( should get ASD dx one day) .

So a 4 bed needed. DS3 sleeps in the dining room.

More pertinently our social worker insists we need 4 which is fine whilst we are here. But should we lose it we would need LA Housing if it is before we are working (I pray not!), this would mean longer in temp accom due to shortage of 4 beds, and probably necessitate placing the SN boys in care as they would not cope with shared toilets / kitchens etc. We also would only qualify at most for rent housing benefit for a 3 bed regartdless of reason for needing teh extra space. This last reason was mentioned in the human rights document that the HOL chose to ignore.

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 15:18:49

Peachy The cost of sheltered accommodation may be greater, but the cost of HB paid on behalf of low income/unemployed families in private rental accommodation is much higher.

If Council's built and ran enough decent sheltered accommodation, it wouldn't all have to be that much more expensive.

There are more people in Britain - people are living longer and we have opened our borders to immigrants. You can't sell off i don't know how many properties in the RTB scheme, knock down tower blocks, and still expect more people to fit into the remaining properties.

i realise everyone wants to be near family, near public transport, etc. But there is what there is and there needs to be a two pronged approach:

1. a. A bonus tax - Banks cannot pay millions in bonuses when they are borrowing from the government at some stupidly low rate. Use the money raised to build affordable housing and support those who need social support.

b. Raising the NMW to a living wage - so that the wealth accumulated by the top 1% filters down. One of the first things this government did when it came into power was to abolish the HIPs. The only people who benefited from this were the people who sell houses on a regular basis - now who might fall into that group? With a higher NMW, it would pay to work and lifestyle benefit collection would no longer be expedient.

c. Public sector wages such as council executives and NHS managers have their salaries cut to the bare possible minimum. There is no reason whatsoever why a manager is a little room at the end of a ward who spends her time thinking about targets should earn more than a nurse who earns her bread by the sweat of her brow. White collar my foot. How Victorian are we?

the second prong is, 2 - this is the way it is, for now. We should fight for change, as I outlined above, but for a family with spare rooms to not move because it would be hard for them, when others are crammed into very little living space, is frankly, not fair. We, if not they, are all in this together.

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 15:21:11

Peachy if you have been assessed as needing a four bed, then you should get HB for a four bed and if that is refused, appeal and re-appeal.

KateMiddlet0n Wed 14-Dec-11 15:23:02

Hey I'm not really here, but I just wanted to say Do NOT engage with Muppet Watch or similar people. They have a minuscule reach and you will give them more attention than they will get on their own. Just ignore them. Completely. Much of their tweeting is so illiterate no one could possibly know what they're on about half the time. They need us. We do not need to help them get attention.

Peachy Wed 14-Dec-11 15:24:13

Am not arguing with you MrsMic- I agree with the principle, just not that it woill work as things stand now. Develop more variable communities with different types of housing etc and I will be up thre cheering for it.

And dad doesn't (well he does but) want to be near family: he wants to be able to go to work, he can't drive and he can't walk or cycle either. The country can;t afford for people to give up work and then become reliant on benefits (Dad's pension vanished in a pension scandal a decade ago). Mum needs to be near a bus so she can care for Grandad, something she REALLY doesn;t want to do but as he ahs turned away social services has no choice in. Solve that and you start to get to the complex nub of the issue.

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 15:27:19

I understand the details of needing to get to and from people to care for them - the answer then is to expand the bus routes. Why millions are being spent to make the tubes wider in honour of the olympics is beyond me - people who live here every day need to get around, never mind people who are visiting for a couple of weeks!

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 15:27:58

Secretly, I do really want to be PM. I'd fix eeeeevyfing.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 15:33:36

Better public transport would be bloomin' amazing for everyone. But not likely to happen! I get a bit annoyed when people moan about transport in London, okay it might not be as good as some other cities, but it's pure luxury compared to basically anywhere even vaguely rural!

Peachy Wed 14-Dec-11 15:34:02

Well of course, although my family are rural which complicates things.

And I will race you to the PM job wink although I'd accept the DWP role gladly.

Peachy Wed 14-Dec-11 15:34:36

Ah x posts with TeWi LMAO

Mum's a Somerset lady. Nuff said!

JuliaScurr Wed 14-Dec-11 15:47:26

Re: being apolitical: while I do believe this is an ideologically based attack on the welfare state by those who govern by the rich, for the rich, I also agree the Labour party wouldn't be much different because they are spineless and won't stand up to the City etc. We need to look at the policies and the practice - Greens look great until they get power - and start cutting.
I have actually wept reading this thread; the needless stress and misery will never be faced by the people making the decisions.sad

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 16:24:09

It is criminal to make people rely on cars and then up the petrol costs every Monday and Thursday. Why on earth isn't there decent transport outside the capital?

My parents live on the top of a mountain outside Jerusalem. They have local buses around their community every 20 minutes, and buses into the surrounding towns every 20 minutes (to Jerusalem) and every hour (to Tel Aviv and Bnei Brak). There are even two buses a day to Ashdod, which is the seaside!

Peachy Wed 14-Dec-11 16:33:09

Tell mea about it MrsM; as I am permanently at risk of losing my licence (eyesight not points!) I am well aware that should that happen (and it will eventually) i will be unable toa ccess either of the boy's SN Schools for meetings, plays etc. If they have an appointment they will have to miss the entire day. It will take almost 2 hours to cobble buses together for the schools- by which time it is bound to clash with another drop off (DS3 attends half days), pick up or make collecting the other impossible.

I've started a thread on NM, just a gentle one to start off a discussion, not all frothy...

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 16:37:41

More buses would mean more flexible jobs, BTW.

Ava wouldn't it be all lovely and beautiful if NMers and MNers came together, righties and lefties, all supporting the same cause?

I don't see any reason why that couldn't happen MM smile we're all in it together right ;)

MrsMicawber Wed 14-Dec-11 16:40:57

Yeah. some of us are!

GossipWitch Wed 14-Dec-11 16:44:08

Oh wow, I utterly despise dc and plebby, marking my place !!!!!!!!!

dwppressoffice DWP Press Office
Lord Freud just announced to peers £30m for councils to support tenants in adapted accommodation & foster carers. Press release to follow.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 16:53:30


Where's that come from then? hmm

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 16:57:20

Shall we place bets now on:

it'll be up to council's how to deploy,
it won't be ringfenced
it'll only be available to hrc...

Just feels like they are trying to cover up the cuts to real families budgets with something that may help some but probably won't help all... or am I being a cynic?

Peachy Wed 14-Dec-11 17:00:04

Not being a cynic

Plenty like us don't need adapted accom. It's like gold dust in fact.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 17:09:27

It seems to me that what most families with a family member with disabilities need is more space - whether they've got mobility issues or not there always seems to be a lot of extra 'kit' required. So taking into account SS recommendations for how many bedrooms are required would make the most sense as a small action.

Not cutting their UC would also be pretty damn grand...

From Twitter TeWi.

Can someone please confirm for me that the plans to make lone parents/disabled work 24hrs a week for TC were in fact changed back down to 16hrs?

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 17:22:06

We would need to find the relevent part of the HoL transcripts/video - might be quicker to ask gingerbread? They ought to have been following as the debates happen.

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 17:30:47

If it was debated today the transcripts/video won't be up until it has finished either - vid might be up late this evening.

CardyMow Wed 14-Dec-11 18:24:43

I've been waiting 7 years for an adaptation that was meant to be put in before I moved in. hmm. Maybe this money will get me a wet room fitted so that it is safe for me to WASH myself in private without one of my dc present? My council suspended the fund that pays for adaptations ohhh - about 7 years ago...It's seven years since I have been able to wash in private.

AvadventKalendar - no, it has been dropped from 24 to 20, IF your child is under 12yo. If your child is OVER 12yo, even if they have SN, you will be expected to work for 35 hours a week, unless you get HRC for them...

CardyMow Wed 14-Dec-11 18:25:55

Oh, is that part being debated again? Would it be on BBC parliament, or online or something?

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 18:36:30

I'm not sure. Just wondered if that was where the 16hrs thing was coming from.

Do you remember which source the hours thing came from Hunty?

Thank you Hunty, Tewi, yes source would be fab if you have one, I need to start bookmarking things hmm I was worried I'd posted wrong info on NM after someone questioned it and was going to check but couldn't find it again!

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 19:24:36

I haven't had anything to do with the single parents angle, so I have no idea unfortunately!

If it's in the big UC document then I can give you that.

Saw this on youtube, David Cameron - The Common People and thought of all the Frothers.

OpinionatedMum Wed 14-Dec-11 20:04:14

PMSL at the linkgrin

LynnCSchreiber Wed 14-Dec-11 20:26:15

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. What is HIPs, btw?

I was wondering about Muppetwatch, cause I thought I was a bit thick for not understanding what he wrote. Glad to hear that others find it incomprehensible.

Tortington Wed 14-Dec-11 20:30:42

hello frothy fuckers

i know your foaming about something else - but i just wanted to bring this to your attendtion the big society is a pile of shit stained wank. and the guardian would like your comments

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 21:15:04

Big Society = taking away services + money from the vulnerable and leaving nothing to replace them.

LynnCSchreiber Wed 14-Dec-11 21:19:54

oathkeeper Wed 14-Dec-11 21:07:04
"The moral test of a government is how it treats those who are at the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the aged; and those who are in the shadow of life, the sick and the needy, and the handicapped." - Hubert Humphrey

^^ just in case you miss that on the other thread. Have tweeted it

CardyMow Wed 14-Dec-11 21:20:04

I've got the 20 hrs thing saved on a PDF file or 15 that is titled "Universal Credit Policy Briefing Note", it's in the conditionality one, numbered, oh hang on, I've got to open Adobe to have a look - I'll tell you which number UCPBN it's in in a minute!

I don't know how to link to a PDF file, but when I've told you which number it is, you can google them, and they come up on google, so you can download it to read yourselves.

CardyMow Wed 14-Dec-11 21:24:18

Universal Credit Policy Briefing Note 11. That's the one you need. Though I have just realised that I am missing UCPBN 12 - am orf to Google and download, and see what else they're going to do to us...

KateMiddlet0n Wed 14-Dec-11 21:33:35

Hey Custy thanks for the info. I think we are frothing on a number of fronts. Every time we think we've sussed just what the bastards are up to they move the goal posts with some more (to quote your rather well put turn of phrase) "shit stained wank".

Hello all, I'm back proper for a bit. DS has had his op and is fine, but has been a bit tired from the anaesthetic so is still up and watching Cars <sigh>

Some good news: we have 200 facebook followers now and almost 250 on Twitter which doesn't sound a lot but the retweets are high and the #frothers hashtag is doing very well so we're punching well above our weight there. You can also block irritating people (like the delightful Muppet Watch) so they can't follow you, list you or PM you. Very satisfying grin

We could do with some a new blog post as today was the first day without a new post.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 21:35:39

quick question re. twitter

if you follow someone then block them, do they know ?

hunty sterling work by you on the tory thread for not losing your temper

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 21:38:42

All going well then! Sorry I'm a bit useless atm - it was false labour last night, but getting v knackered and not really with it now.

Anyone want to do a big society one then?

KateMiddlet0n Wed 14-Dec-11 21:44:19

AF They will only know if were following you too and notice you have disappeared from their timeline or if they search for you and try to follow you and can't.

KateMiddlet0n Wed 14-Dec-11 21:44:58

I could have a bash at Big Society. It will be off the cuff and ranty, but I can bash it out quickly.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 21:45:21

I can't get fired up at the moment

I wanted to do a blog post on the new social housing under-occupancy guidelines earlier. I couldn't. What's wrong with me ?

That Guardian thingy. I can't. Defeatism is moving in at the Fucker household.

FontSnob Wed 14-Dec-11 21:46:00

My bloody internet keeps bugering up and not letting me open things. Grr. Where is the best place to look to find out about the things that are going through the HoL at the moment? I should just google it shouldn't I...

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 21:46:18

oh dear, kate, I might be stuffed then blush

FontSnob Wed 14-Dec-11 21:47:19

Grr, is so fecking annoying, will let me use google and mn but not other sites...wtf is that about??

KateMiddlet0n Wed 14-Dec-11 21:52:32

What have you done? <nosey>

TeWiharaMeriKirihimete Wed 14-Dec-11 21:53:02

link for HoL site does that work?

Thanks Hunty, will google that and SAVE IT!

I'd love to do a blog post for TMC but I'm fick blush

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 22:02:03

Ava, you are not

Please do a blog post, some of us are flagging sad

kate, I blocked a few perfectly nice people on twitter

I thought they wouldn't know

OpinionatedMum Wed 14-Dec-11 22:02:47

I could write about my families recent experience of homelessness if whoever is organising the blog is interested. I think it is relevant as many families will be evicted when the HB cuts come in. I'm not a great writer but I'm prepared to try.

I can empathise Any, I'm seriously fucking flagging.
Oh and by the way thank you for being so very lovely about me smile

KateMiddlet0n Wed 14-Dec-11 22:04:19

They probably won't notice. Unless you were the only person they were following.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 22:04:22

We are all interested, OM

and I'm sorry sad

FontSnob Wed 14-Dec-11 22:04:46

Thanks Kate, I have managed to get there but am completely flummoxed by the sheer weight of information that the site contains.

<<checks to see if AF has blocked her on twitter>>


AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 22:04:56

I hope so, kate

I'll get to it tomorrow, the thing I know most about is Atos and DLA and ESA claims etc. Will that be ok?

I've dled the pdfs but cannot find the 20hours thing for lone parents mentioned, maybe I need some sleep and look again in the morns.

Night frothy ones smile

KnottyJustForChristmas Wed 14-Dec-11 22:06:45

Evening all.

Been busy with work and stuff so haven't managed to get my next blog post done yet. I'll crack on when I get a spare few minutes and my brain isn't so frazzled.

Have managed a few tweets. Brain can cope with that. Just about.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 22:07:25

I went a bit mad and followed everyone who followed me (I thought that's what you did, t'was only polite)

I didn't want to talk about shoes on twitter grin

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 22:08:19

night ava, thanks so much for your contribution

FontSnob Wed 14-Dec-11 22:17:09

Just watching PM question time...its a bit nuts. Old ham face is very good at not answering stuff. Lots of posturing.

ShirleyKnot Wed 14-Dec-11 22:23:54

<limps onto thread>

<waves tiredly>

Hey all!

Haven't read thread yet - will go back and catch up.

We've been struggling in the Knot household a bit this week. Lots of poorliness and lots of travelling and no bloody internet access at work and a general feeling of fucking sadness and desperation from me.

I did want to quickly tell you something about the power of the frothers though, I promise I'll go read the thread after this real life tale (and I'm considering putting this up as a blog - let me know)

I went to visit to my family in S Wales last weekend. I come from parents of the S Wales valleys who left their homes when they married in 1970 and moved to London - they both worked in the NHS, my Dad was a radiographer and my mum started as a nurse before she had me and then went back to work as a clerk.

Anyway. The towns where all all of my family live are working class, ex mining towns, decimated by the closure of the pits under Thatcher, and after a brief resurgence of factory positions in the late 90's/early 00's, are now communities on their fucking knees. It never fails to shock me how few jobs there are - how little hope there is in these places and yet I find myself arguing a left wing position everytime I go there. hmm

This confuses me so much. How can it be that my family, this community, can be agreeing with the government?

Well, the truth is that the left wing have lost the media fight. I found myself, once again, arguing against the old chestnut of "benefit scroungers". My family appeared to be amazed when I told them that we are being pitted against one another (a part of my family receive a carers allowance for an elderly member of our family who is disabled - they don't count themselves as takers of benefits) and instead started the old story of the generations of benefit claimants.

I leant on my knowledge gleaned from being a frother. I pointed out the disparity between the amount of fraudulent claims versus the amount that goes unclaimed. I talked about the defferment of private jet taxes. I made the point about those slipping between the ESA and JSA. I shocked them by telling them the amounts of rent that have to be paid in my area (£800 pcm for a two bed flat) and the cap in HB, the cuts/freezes in CTC and how that affects me - the constant grinding down of the working poor, and those who are UNABLE to work through no fault of their own - and the sly media portrayal used to get the poor to report on each other while the big businesses use workfare as a tool for slave labour and avoid taxes.

I'm proud to say I frothed. I frothed big time and I relished the questions "So who pays their wages?" and "Private Jet's?" and I praised the frothers for the info at my fingertips...

and then I had a few days off.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 22:26:20

please post that on the blog, shirl < stirs self from torpor >

KnottyJustForChristmas Wed 14-Dec-11 22:28:56

<hands Shirl a large glass of Christmas vodka>

Post it, my lovely. It's a similar fight to the one I've had this week.

KnottyJustForChristmas Wed 14-Dec-11 22:31:15

Um, I think I've broken Twitter.

Hullygully Wed 14-Dec-11 22:33:51

Go Shirl Go!

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 22:35:21

yeah, twitter is down

I may have contributed to that when I asked @DrChristian if he epilated his scalp

KnottyJustForChristmas Wed 14-Dec-11 22:37:09

AF, you've made a friend for life then grin

OpinionatedMum Wed 14-Dec-11 22:38:29

Post it. I am so sick of the divide and rule tactics being employed by the government and certain sections of the media. Actually, most of the media.

Shit stained wank. grin

Thanks for that custardo, it's my new favourite expression.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 14-Dec-11 22:39:58

perhaps not, knotty smile

twitter is cured

ShirleyKnot Wed 14-Dec-11 22:40:45

Ah, I'll work it up a bit then and post it.

It was an eye opening trip this time TBH. Eye Opening and Eye Closing.


carernotasaint Wed 14-Dec-11 23:05:49

BREAKING NEWS. Poundworld are in my local paper this week. They conducted unpaid work trials with ten individuals to fill Christmas vacancies at the local store.
It is alleged that our local branch of Poundworld asked 16 candidates to work a day unpaid.
The guardian of one of the young people was completely shocked by this and is quoted as saying its disgraceful.
This is the work trials which are up to 15 days.
Ha. this parent and the others have obviously never heard of workfare which is even worse.
Maybe this article will open the floodgates though and someone will give our local paper their workfare story.
Poundworld insists that eight of the ten individuals went on to be employed with one now a full time member of staff.
But at the top of the article it says they trialled 16. Either its a typo or poundworld cant get their story straight.

Tortington Wed 14-Dec-11 23:12:39

my son is working a week. for free. for free. gratis free. then they will no doubt tell him on mondya that he hasn't got the job

and im paying the £7 per day transport/lunch costs.

ShirleyKnot Wed 14-Dec-11 23:19:19

It's utter bullshit.

When I mentioned Workfare and then explained what I meant my aunt (who used to work for ASDA) said that she had seen these kids start a job and the expectation was that they would get a role at the end of it - the permanent staff knew that it wasn't going to happen. My uncle suddenly blurted "Who pays their wages then?" and I as I told him that the "tax payer" did (a la Jeremy Kyle) he visibly blanched.

Ch to the U to the AH

I am so impressed with all the work the Frothers are doing.

Shirleyknot well done, I know people who think exactly that way about so called benefit scroungers - I just always feel like I am not well enough armed to enlighten them, I always try. I agree we shouldn't be fighting amongst ourselves, and I think it is great you got a chance to make those points.

I really don't feel I am articulate enough to blog, but I am willing to do my bit. I share links on fb, sign petitions and write to my MP(most recently about the Robin Hood tax, I even got a reply!).

I am on twitter but I just feel awkward on there.

CardyMow Wed 14-Dec-11 23:32:58

I'm a little busy tonight, trying to do a personal calculation for someone, but I'm getting defeated by Self employment...As far as I can make out from the policy briefing notes, someone who is SE will be assumed to be making the equivalent of 35hr/wk @NMW. Even if they aren't MAKING that much. In fact, even if they are showing a LOSS.

How the fucking fuck does THAT work?

Oh - and can someone link me somewhere that will tell me the rates for the severe disability element of UC, seeing as that is what they are cutting roughly in half.

On CTC, do you get BOTH disability elements? In other words, if you get the severe disability element, do you ALSO get the disability element? Or do you only get one? I can't work that bit out.

<<Needs help!>>

CardyMow Wed 14-Dec-11 23:35:41

Fuck that, Custy. I am worrying about this with DD already. She is in Y9 now, only another 2 1/2 yrs to go and this could be her. If she can't tie her own tie, and sometimes tries to leave for school without her SHOES on, how the hell will she manage to do 35 hrs a week workfare?!

TheMouseRanUpTheClock Wed 14-Dec-11 23:39:48

I think there was a link a few days ago, to 2012 benefit levels, I don't remember seeing all levels for UC, thought not read all of thread.

Do you mean, Care/Mobility Hunty, when asking about CTC?

I also noted that many times, it is only DLA, HRC not HRM that gets consideration as being disabled for UC, is there a reason fro that?

carernotasaint Wed 14-Dec-11 23:40:15

And parents who are on low incomes will be expected to pay their childrens lunch/travel expenses like Custardo is now. Fucking disgusting.

KateMiddlet0n Wed 14-Dec-11 23:45:16

I've just qualified as an HR professional (previously had hr responsibilities on top of management role) and everything I hear and read about workfare makes me angry as a professional.

My job is to ensure employment law is followed and the strategic objectives of the organisation can be delivered by our people. At no point does slavery enter the equation. Never. And yet this is what workfare is. It's the selling of people's labour where they have no choice, no employment rights and do not get paid a proper wage.

What I think will appeal to the "I'm alright jack" contingent is the idea that by participating in the scheme ordinary, hardworking people will unable to get jobs. This will include students looking for Christmas and summer jobs and SAHPs looking to return to work.

CardyMow Wed 14-Dec-11 23:45:54

I have the levels for UC - but as this thing went through the HoL about cuttng it in half, I wanted to know exact figures. Where's Peachy when you need her? grin.

I don't mean Care/Mobility - that's DLA. I mean the disabled child element of CTC, and the severely disabled child element of CTC. Do you get both DCE and SDE if you get the severely disabled child element, or just the SDE?

I can't sleep. am too frothed up and annoyed as I started a thread on NM and cannot find a fkn link to back it up and am being told am wrong and now thinking I AM!


KateMiddlet0n Thu 15-Dec-11 00:05:05

A sliver of hope: http://m.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/14/housing-benefit-cuts-lords-defeat?cat=society&type=article HoL defeat WRB housing benefit changes.

ACTION Let's find out who the 13 Lib Dem lords and the 1 Tory and contact them to thank them and urge them to keep rejecting changes that hurt the vulnerable.

KateMiddlet0n Thu 15-Dec-11 00:06:05

A sliver of hope: http://m.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/14/housing-benefit-cuts-lords-defeat?cat=society&type=article HoL defeat WRB housing benefit changes.

ACTION Let's find out who the 13 Lib Dem lords and the 1 Tory and contact them to thank them and urge them to keep rejecting changes that hurt the vulnerable.

KateMiddlet0n Thu 15-Dec-11 00:07:39

It'll maybe say when they release the transcript tomorrow Kate?

TuftyFinch Thu 15-Dec-11 00:15:16

I echo TapselteeriO's post and would like to add that I feel shit for having done nothing myself.

After a shit week at work, where jobs are at risk again and teaching staff will soon be subject to an observation policy that means they can be observed at any time (previously you would have 2 weeks notice). If the teacher does not 'perform' to the criteria laid out by management (not Ofsted/CIF criteria) they may face disciplinary action. Fuck the fuck off with that! It's a way for management to get rid of people by making up their own 'gross misconduct' criteria.

Anyway. I know my job isn't the shittiest job. I know I get paid much more than minimum wage and it's not the plight of poor lecturers that will win any acknowledgement or sympathy. But, there are hundreds and thousands of adults who can't read and write at all or beyond the level of a reception aged child. They are being ignored. They can't contribute to the economy at the moment but that is what they want (in my experience). They often have no voice. They can't engage on the level needed with government agencies/legal issues/housing/debt. CAB are over loaded.

Well, we all know how that goes ...

I work in FE and the students most in need are being excluded. I work in a London borough that is deprived. The is a high need for ESOL and low level literacy and numeracy courses. 5 years ago all of those who wanted to enrol were enrolled. The courses were free. I taught adults who were unable to write their own children a birthday or christmas card. A lot of those students finished the course being able to do that. All of the students I have taught want to work. They want to be able to be 'functional 'in literacy and numeracy to be able to achieve this.

This year the students who most need help are excluded because the cost of the course is too high. The college won't allow the course fee of £140+ to be paid in installments. These are students who can't read or write at a functional level. Some of them work in NMW jobs at night. The students who don't work, and want to come in the day, are having their options squeezed.

The job centre will 'allow'them to attend college, if under 16 hours a week but they also have to be seeking work. They have few child care options. They can't afford the course anyway and even if they could find the money they don't want to pay if they are going to be made to take a job before the course finishes.

The government pretends to care about getting everyone educated to level 2 but they can't see that they are putting up more barriers than they are removing. I've had potential students in tears because they just want to be able to read their children a book but we don't have a course that they can afford/fit fit around childcare/can't be sure they'll be indentured to Argos.

Article says Lord Newton was the Tory.

carernotasaint Thu 15-Dec-11 00:19:07

Tony Newton used to be our local MP. I met him socially once at a cheese and wine evening he came to which was a fundraiser for a day centre for the disabled. He does understand the need for a second bedroom for a carer or care worker. That may be why he voted against. Forgetting his political leaning for a moment he is much more realistic and in touch with life than many of his peers. I cant say much more than that without outing myself in RL.

garlicnutcracker Thu 15-Dec-11 01:11:29

I really want to see workfare exposed. I've been trying to compile a post, but keep getting bogged down by dearth of verifiable info - I did find some good stuff from the DWP for the workfare thread, though. Think I need to take a break from it before clarifying my ideas. I hope everyone else will do it, too.

Umm, can I just stress that this is not a party political issue? There's nothing Tory about making sick people work (without legal protections) before their doctor says they're ready for work, nor about the State paying lump sums to big businesses for getting free staff, also paid by the State. It's such a ludicrous strategy it has no political home. The benefits to our dear taxpayer are very hard to find.

In addition to the problem of workfare taking jobs off the market, to be filled by taxpayer-funded workfarers, there's also the little matter of ATOS having the right to tell you you're fit for work. I think this might bother a few people when they consider what might happen if they have a heart attack, say, or an accident. They could be told to go to work in Sainsbury's warehouse three months before their doctor says they're fit for work. Quite possibly prompting a second heart attack, one imagines.

What's more, their existing job will not necessarily be protected for a period. The employment laws are being 'changed' to mkae them less onerous for businesses.

(Those will be the businesses that get paid £5k a time to get free staff. What a hard time they have.)

Tianc Thu 15-Dec-11 01:16:13

Shirley if you're mentioning the deferral of jet tax "to allow companies to adjust their plans", do you want to put in a bit about the opposite happening with ESA? Or should this be a separate piece? (Sorry, don't feel brave enough to write for the blog myself just now.)

" '700,000 terminally ill to lose benefits' " , Channel 4 News.

The DWP has been sending out letters to sick people, including the terminally ill, warning their ESA will cease - before the Welfare Reform Bill has even been passed.

The DWP claimed it was necessary to spend thousands of pounds scaring the shit out of dying people about something that might never happen because, "From next April people in the work-related activity group will only be able to claim ESA for a year."

So no deferred introduction of the slashing of contributory-ESA to one-year support only.

Still, I suppose that makes sense: it's not like the sick can change their plans and make arrangements to get better, so we can't do much even with notice. hmm

DWP webpage about this, with link to actual letter.

(NB C4 headline slightly wrong - not all of the 700,000 will be terminally ill.
Also similar article here: "Terminally ill patients told their benefits may be cut" Guardian 21 Sep 2011.)

garlicnutcracker Thu 15-Dec-11 01:19:05

By the way, even the FT has been strongly against the Work Programme all year.
Recent article.

The FT only gives a very little shit about impoverished plebs, but has been pumping out evidence that the programme is impracticable, expensive and does not make the providing agencies rich after all.

Which raises the interesting question: who is this insane programme designed to benefit?

Tianc Thu 15-Dec-11 01:25:05

I think they just haven't thought it through, garlic.

Remember the HR tax / child benefit announcement? Lots of head-desking from Treasury and the like who said, "This has huge practical problems we've known about for years - why didn't you even ask us."

I honestly think this lot are running the govt like the Sixth Form Economics Club - no professionalism at all. None.

garlicnutcracker Thu 15-Dec-11 01:28:47


I haven't even started on the fact that our own energy secretary has stated publicly that it's foolish to expect power on demand shock

The new Dark Age starts next year sad

The last one only took twelve years to happen, and lasted two hundred iirc.
No wonder I can't fucking sleep.

garlicnutcracker Thu 15-Dec-11 01:30:13

(ps, Tianc, that turns out to be the real reason for smart meters. I've downloaded every single one of the documents you found, and am working on it.)

garlicnutcracker Thu 15-Dec-11 01:33:59

I want to believe it's just idiocy or inexperience, Tianc, but I don't any more. Somebody's pulling the strings. Presumably some large-scale investors and/or their consultants.

yellowraincoat Thu 15-Dec-11 01:39:30

Frothing over here too. Grumpy after an evening of arguing on another thread. Why do I do it? They haven't an ounce of compassion.

Tianc Thu 15-Dec-11 02:32:37

I haven't forgotten the Smart Meters stuff, garlic - it's bloody nagging at me and one reason I don't feel able to write for the Frothers blog - but RL is slightly too demanding atm.

Smart meters are about the failure to invest in new power stations, but also about attempting to cut carbon emissions. The lights are truly going to start going out within 10 years. Energy Sec clearly feeling the need to start softening the populace up for this already.

Gratuitously screwing the consumer wrt instant disconnection and price-based rationing is just the power companies seizing the opportunity to sneak purely commercial changes in with the shortage-management stuff.

Anyone who can bear to read more, my thread is here: "Anyone having a gas/leccy meter replaced with a Smart Meter? Something you need to know"

It's as important but less urgent than the WRB - unless you have people at your door trying to change your meter right now.


Just logging this as something to look at later. Will be out most of the day today so will look at writing something later on for the blog. Got 120 mile round trip on public transport to see my consultant hmm lots of time to think then!

Have a frothy day everyone smile

LynnCSchreiber Thu 15-Dec-11 08:07:59


Here is a good article from Susanne Moore about uncertainty if you want a break from frothing. Very interesting.

<grabs Shirley and clasps warmly to ample bosom> YES. Write that blog post. It is kind of echoing what I have been thinking these past few days. Need to get it down on paper soon.

LynnCSchreiber Thu 15-Dec-11 08:15:21

Just a thought - when we tweet about the Wealthfare Reform Bill, we should use #wrb hashtag so that others can find us.

Peachy Thu 15-Dec-11 08:22:42

No energy on demand eh?

Cor, Dh's not even complete yet technology degree will be worth a fortune then hmm

Course my paranoid head says if there's no leccy then people can;t get together over twitter and FB to complain and march <<cynical>>

But I am slowly realising my paranoid head is my wise one

Tortington Thu 15-Dec-11 08:30:53

Yesterday i read an astounding post by shirleyknot where she said that we are smiply losing the media battle.

for the love of all that is left, read this article it is amazing mazing amazing.

not only are we being royally fucked by the conservatives - there is this growing media contempt for 'scroungers'

the article makes the very highly excellent point that labour are doing nothing about it.

labour are lettuce. limp, spineless. if even unemployed people don't want to be associated with this amorphic unknown 'scrounging' element then we have lost the media battle and worse...we have no Joan of Arc - we have no-one to stand up for us. The workers.

becuase somehow 'the workers' means something bit Commy

The poor have no-one becuase they are 'scrougers'

there is no political system in place to help us. Labour should be ashamed. They have no real chance of getting into power in the next election by which time ED, you will have been replaced in favour of someone who might actually win.

labour political stratgy ma kes no sense.

the Tories have gone blue, bluer than blue - there is no grey here mr milliand. We all know what they stand for

What do you stand for my chinese leaf shaped friend? becuase from where i'm standing ...and i want to believe in you like an 11 year old wants to believe in a santa they know doesn't exist ...you stand for nothing.

you don't stand for the poor
you don't stand for the workers

are you just standing for the sake of getting power one day? SHAME ON YOU. SHAME -ON- YOU

Hunty for your figures, if your child currently gets MRC DLA you get a premium of £52.21 per week on your tax credits. If your child gets HRC DLA you get a premium of £73.27 total.

Under UC if your child gets MRC DLA the premium is being CUT to £25.95 per week, and for HRC it will increase slightly to £74.50.

Given that the difference between MRC and HRC is whether or not your child sleeps (and actually Rhys doesn't yet I still only get MRC) it's a bit shitty really.

LynnCSchreiber Thu 15-Dec-11 08:45:19

I have been saying that for years.

Where is the alternative?

And why are the conservatives better at propaganda than the left?

But it is not just Labour, I have noticed the same in other countries.

I think it because the right have the easy, populist answers. It is the benefit scroungers/immigrants/gypsies...

Peachy Thu 15-Dec-11 09:04:24

Absolutely agree with Custy

Why are the Tories better at it? becuase theya re led by sometone who worked in PR for ITV I presume, that's his only real skill after all

I feel despised. I want to work, I carefor my boys, I study

yet to this world I am worthless

Hullygully Thu 15-Dec-11 09:06:39

Because we are a blip. Us baby boomers with our post war consensus kindness are a blip. We will go down in history as that fifty year blip at the end of the 20th century when tired after two WWs we all decided to love each other for a bit.

And then it all wore off and got selfish and nasty again. Or "normal," depending on your POV.

ShirleyKnot Thu 15-Dec-11 09:08:35

<nods head off at Custy>

Of course part of the problem is that the "media" and I'm talking specifically here about the printed press and vastly skewed towards keeping the status quo.

The Murdochs, Dacres and Desmonds have a VESTED INTEREST in keeping the big businesses rich - of course! Why would they want to publicise the shit that's happening? It's utterly contrary to their own agenda's.

Hullygully Thu 15-Dec-11 09:08:53

And the younger generations have forgotten what it was like. No one learns from history.

Hullygully Thu 15-Dec-11 09:09:37

Big article yesterday(?) in the grauniad on just that, the 1% working for the interests of the rest of the 1%.

ShirleyKnot Thu 15-Dec-11 09:10:19

X posted.

Peachy. You are absolutely the opposite of worthless.

Hullygully Thu 15-Dec-11 09:11:12

Don't be daft Peachy. <slap> What you gonna do? Lie down and accept their view with a resigned smile and a kick me here badge?

Hullygully Thu 15-Dec-11 09:12:13

Labour are scared that no one cares about the poor etc any more. they are too scared to campaign on behalf of the dispossessed. They want power. Look at Clegg. A wee sniff of power and they all bend over.

ShirleyKnot Thu 15-Dec-11 09:13:48

I'm going to try and get something written up about losing the media battle and how clueless people who WILL be affected seem to be today.

BUT! I think I'm going to out myself fairly effectively if I write it under partyspanner - so if I write it and send it to someone else would you mind posting it for me and saying something like "written by a guest contributer" or summat?

Peachy Thu 15-Dec-11 09:13:53

I am not a baby boomer, I am apparently generation x.

But even my longest term friends, people who sympathise with us on a one to oen level, spout this shite on a generalised basis.

The new trules when analysed suggest that i9nstitutionalisation is something we are moving back towards- several of those new WRB reforms point towards that as a route: compulsory workfare, reductions in childcare payments etc.

But- and this is the big but- none of that matters until there are jobs. It's 4 months until I have childcre to go back to work but my city ahs lost voer a thousand jobs this month. I may be a product of the eighties and hardy when applying for work in a recession but I can't apply for what isn't available.

But I am glad I am in wales in most ways: there's less of the DM crap from most people I find, presumably as they;ve watched Merthr and the local sttel industry. MPs and AMs here at least Get It.

Peachy Thu 15-Dec-11 09:16:38

Hully course I am bloody not! I don't atually think I am capable of it LOL. I frequently go into meetings with the boys saying 'I will just listen' and end up gobbing off.

But it does hurt, of course it does.

Just got to hope about the power and leccy as DH is in the lighting design field! That WOULD be us scuppered. Mind, he's ace with an old genny set (carnival skill) so might be in demand...

HedleyLamarr Thu 15-Dec-11 09:28:11

you don't stand for the poor
you don't stand for the workers

are you just standing for the sake of getting power one day? SHAME ON YOU. SHAME -ON- YOU

Well said Custy. I've tweeted the Graniad CIF wrt the big society using the #frothers and #workfareisslavery. Plus I've tweeted a link to the TMC blog post about workfare using the same hashtags.

LynnCSchreiber Thu 15-Dec-11 09:42:07

You can mail it to me and I will post it, crediting a "Guest Blogger"

Or set up a Frothy gmail address with Pseudonym that cannot be linked to you.

Hullygully Thu 15-Dec-11 10:02:49

I would offer but I can't make anything work so it would be a waste of time...

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan Thu 15-Dec-11 10:54:52

i want to move away from england.

would anyone recommend scotland or wales? am i right in thinking HE is free in scotland so my son might have a chance of an education? and are prescriptions free?

sorry random q.

Tianc Thu 15-Dec-11 11:08:26

Peachy, can DH start experimenting with low energy lighting and solar? Might give him a USP right now among clients delighted to save power costs?

Ginfox Thu 15-Dec-11 12:21:37

Santa HE is free here in Scotland (at the moment - fingers Xed it stays that way!). The current Scottish government has a lot of excellent policies in place - free prescriptions, free school dinners, small class sizes etc. My concern is where the money is coming from to implement them, and how long they can be maintained.

A massive plus is the tiny insignificant presence the Tories have up here - Thatcher is still a swear word, and memories are long. That and the fact that it's beautiful up here.

Peachy Thu 15-Dec-11 12:24:12

Tianc they've done laods fo that as part of his degree so absolutely it is something he can branch into if needed.

Santa we moved from England a few (8 now!) years back and yes I do recommend it. Depending on where you are of course and employment levels for that area but HE is better catered for here (if not up to Scotlans'd level), free prescriptions etc. We will probably end up going back to Somerset at some stage but are very settled here (close to newport). Plus England is 25 minutes away, and of course housing (but also wages unless you commute over bridge as many do) cheaper

Peachy Thu 15-Dec-11 12:25:16

Gin YY to lack of Tory MPs; one of the big worries if we had to move is David Davis's constituency is 200m <-- that way

Hullygully Thu 15-Dec-11 12:34:30

Right. I can't write straight stuff so I have written a pome, but I want someone to read it first...

Peachy Thu 15-Dec-11 12:34:37

seems we have a theme song LMAO

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan Thu 15-Dec-11 12:59:37

i just wanted to say i'm really sorry for not being much help. am going through a meds change and tbh i'm bouncing off the walls at the minute with panic attacks and wanting to curl up in a ball and cry but not being able to stop pacing and freaking long enough. way tmi but hey people might as well know what these 'invisible' 'dole-bludging' disabilities are like to live with.

i hope to be back on track soon and really will write a blog post - just want to apologise because i've contributed so little to all this and it really does matter. i also want to say a massive thank you to all the people who don't even find themselves in situations like this but can empathise and care about those of us who do. it's reassuring just to know that not everyone thinks i'm a piece of scum who should be left to starve as punishment for not living up to societies expectations.

thank you!

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan Thu 15-Dec-11 13:01:35

and i hope they publish every suicide letter written in the next year or so.

LynnCSchreiber Thu 15-Dec-11 13:14:00

From Cradle to Grave - The Welfare State

I have touched on a few of your points, and will link up to your post when you have it done.

LynnCSchreiber Thu 15-Dec-11 13:19:15

((hugs)) I am sorry that the added stress is making things worse for you. If it is too much for you to be frothy, take a break.

We should embed that video on the blog.

Can one of you techy types have a look at the formatting on that last post. I cannot seem to get the blue bits off the top and there are a few other little things.

LynnCSchreiber Thu 15-Dec-11 13:22:00

Sorry, third post in a row.

I asked Hecate on the other thread about doing a post for us, as she is always very eloquent and really understands the issues.

She is looking to see if she still has a gmail account, but I thought we could perhaps make a Guest Blogger account for anyone who wishes to do a one off post without it being attributed to them directly, if you see what I mean.

One that we could use as a default.

OpinionatedMum Thu 15-Dec-11 13:26:31

Ok, I am halfway through a blog about my experience of homelessness on my word pad. What is the process for putting it onto the frothers blog. In very simple language please grin

LynnCSchreiber Thu 15-Dec-11 13:43:01

You can either email it to me, and I will post it for you.

Or you can PM me your email address, and I will invite you to be a guest blogger. Then you can put it on there yourself.

ShirleyKnot Thu 15-Dec-11 13:43:30

Mme - sent you the blog.

Hope it's OK

Couldn't sleep last night, I was just too worried and anxious and frothed up about all the crap that is happening to our country. Too worried about what we will become and what people will have to endure. All this shit.

And my great fear at the moment is that I don't see an opposition. Not really. And where on earth does that leave us?

Ginfox Thu 15-Dec-11 14:07:52

Absolutely agree Rather. All that talk about the coalition breaking down following Cameron's little trip to Brussels, and how it could force an election. And I just think "what difference will it make?" Even if - by some miracle - Labour get back in, they aren't far to the left of the current shower. sad

HedleyLamarr Thu 15-Dec-11 14:11:36

Fellow #frothers, the lovely @Iamalrightjack on Twitter has redone his daily news page in our honour. Here it is for your delectation and delight. He'd like to know if we want this change to be permanent. He's a bit hmm that I'm the only respondent thus far.

LynnCSchreiber Thu 15-Dec-11 14:13:37

Now, come on. There are good and positive signs.

The Lords revolt has stirred things up a bit.

Our blog has had a LOT of views in such a short time.

People are finally waking up to what is really happening.

Keep sharing the blog, keep writing, keep linking.

And remember. Nothing is set in stone. Everything can be campaigned against and changed.

I have set up a gmail guest frothers account so that we can post anonymous blog posts. Kate, will email you the details.

KateMiddlet0n Thu 15-Dec-11 14:15:07

Sorry he did tweet the forthers account @tmc_frothers but I've been looking after ds after his op and not had a chance to get onto a computer (phone doesn't do such things justice).

Coincidentally I've just tweeted him about it to say I'm looking. Am off to look properly right now.

LynnCSchreiber Thu 15-Dec-11 14:19:42

How is your DS doing?

Sorry to say that I haven't really looked at that properly, and not really sure what it is. Can he explain in plain and simple words?

Ginfox Thu 15-Dec-11 14:22:03

Sorry Mme. I'm a little ray of sunshine today grin.

HedleyLamarr Thu 15-Dec-11 14:31:24

Hi MmeL, it's his own daily news update which he's renamed The Frothers Daily in our honour. He wants to know if you lot like it and want the name left or should he change it back. I say keep the name up.

LynnCSchreiber Thu 15-Dec-11 14:32:38

I would say keep it.

I noticed that someone unconnected to us on Twitter used #frothers when he was ranting about something the ohter day there.

HedleyLamarr Thu 15-Dec-11 14:43:08

That's good Mme. I shall nip over and let him know. Will link it on Twitter as well. smile

MrsMicawber Thu 15-Dec-11 14:44:27

MMeLindor a HIP (Home Information Pack) was a package of information that had to be collated about any property being sold. It gave work to surveyors, and inconvenienced no one except those who sold property on a regular basis.

LynnCSchreiber Thu 15-Dec-11 14:48:12

Right, am off for a lie down. Not sure if this is my very first migraine, but I have flashy lights in front of my eyes. Weird.

KateMiddlet0n Thu 15-Dec-11 15:06:56

Sorry I've been off catching up. DS seems fine. Just bit out of kilter with sleep <yawn> and I have yet another cold hmm

Jack's newspaper is very kind of him. I have looked now and will tweet him back.

There is hope. That HoL vote is something.

Great blog posts. Well done! I haven't written anything yet but I've been commenting, tweeting and FBing as much as I can.

MmeL hope you're ok.

Hullygully Thu 15-Dec-11 15:09:57

I'm going to cry if no one wants to read my pome

ShirleyKnot Thu 15-Dec-11 15:11:32

PM me it Hully you big girl

OpinionatedMum Thu 15-Dec-11 15:13:19

Where is it Hully?

Hullygully Thu 15-Dec-11 15:16:26

I'm doing a nativity story now. Whether you like my pome or not.

I want read it grin

Yes for the gov to suffer defeat in the H of L was marvellissimo.

Hullygully Thu 15-Dec-11 15:19:15

They suffered a defeat but will ignore it, tho.

KateMiddlet0n Thu 15-Dec-11 15:19:16

I didn't realise we had to request Hully. I thought you were just milking it whipping your audience into a frenzy.