Leaning to Tory but confused

[diceyreilly]

I hold my hands up to being politically ignorant and not having much knowledge of political history and what has gone before. I am not from a privilaged background, working class Irish parents who came over here in the 60's with nothing and made their own way in life with no state handouts. My upbringing was fairly strict and emphasis was put on being accountable and making the most of your education and doing your best. So I don't think I fit a Tory profile of middle class.

However when I read/listen to some of the Tory beliefs about getting people off benefits and back to work and not constantly penalising those who do work, or being tougher on crime and giving schools more liberty to deal with violent unruly children I do find myself thinking they are talking sense and the only party that are putting themselves out there to do something different.

All that said the cynic in me does believe that you can't really trust any of them and what they say now and what they will do in the future will do doubt be different things. And as much as I am fed up with constantly seeing people around me milking the system and living off the taxpayer I would hate to see people who have a genuine need - those whom the welfare state is suppose to help - suffer.

I just don't know how to make a clear decision when I am torn from a social perspective but the fundamentals of the Tory's policies make far more sense. I have read many threads on here which are pro Labour but the reasoning behind them isn't quite hitting a nerve with me. It does seem, as I read on here somewhere, that Labour have created a pool of people who are reliant upon them and by this means secured their vote. There use to be working class and middle class but now we have a whole new class of people who make benefits a way of life. It seems crazy that you hear people say "It doesn't pay me to work, I am better off claiming." What does that attitide teach our children or give people aspirations in life? How is that attitude good for any country?

Apologies for not mentioning the Lib Dems, despite all their recent hype they just seem like a wishy washy version of labour to me.

[tootsieroll]

Well, you've seen what 13 years of Labour has done to the country, and from what you seem to say about your own values, it may be time to give the Tories a go You can always vote them out in 5 years if they don't live up to their promises

[tootsieroll]

Personally I think the Tories have a good set of people. If you're talking about social justice, they have Iain Duncan Smith, who I think has done a lot on this issue, through the Centre for Social Justice thinktank (I think that has contributed much to DC's talk about 'mending the broken society').

[vesela]

The Lib Dems aren't a wishy-washy version of Labour - they're liberals, not socialists.
There's a distinctively Labour way of looking at things - a centralising, control freakish style - that Liberals don't share.

This is a good article that describes the differences between the Lib Dems and Labour.

[callmeDave]

I don't think the lib dems are anything like labour.

I think that all the 'broken society' stuff that the cons talk about constantly is a bit overstated. The number of households where nobody works, has ever worked or will ever work is small. Jobseekers Allowance payments aren't that big. Income support and council tax benefit is more significant but they are not benefits accessed exlusively by the workshy. I think something does need to be done about a culture of benefit dependancy but I think its being overstated as a problem because most people work and want someone to blame. Crime is falling too. Whoever gets in will do something about teachers having more power due to the Peter Harvey incident.

What do you mean by "constantly penalising those who do work"?

[colditz]

Under every Tory government, poor people get poorer. If you can square that with your conscience, you'll be fine to vote for them.

[CatIsSleepy]

surely working tax credits as introduced by this government etc assist people who work

is that not the point of them?
am not sure any government has anything to gain from not encouraging people to work, the tories certainly don't have the monopoly on that

[tootsieroll]

Personally I don't think 'broken society' is overstated. It's not just about being on benefits. It's also about the effects that poverty and lack of opportunity can have on a person - the rising amount of knife crime, the lack of ambition among youth in deprived areas, the breakdown of the family unit....I was impressed with Shaun Bailey's (Cons candidate for Hammersmith and Shepherd's Bush) stuff on Youtube....I thought he knew what he was talking about.

I once witnessed 3 boys ganging up on another, kicking him about. An elderly gentleman went up to help the victim, but instead of apologising or being sheepish for their behaviour, the young thugs screamed obscenities at the old man, sniggered and swaggered off. This was in the centre of Ipswich town centre in broad daylight, not even the deepest darkest London alley, in 1998, during my first years in the UK. I'd never seen anything like it in my home country. If this isn't a sign of a society being broken, I don't know what is.

[diceyreilly]

Call me Dave - when I say being penalised for working I mean it seems that if you better yourself to change your life the assumption is you're rolling in it and can and should afford to pay more tax/NI. Most middle income earners in this day and age have high mortgages which suck up most of their income and that coupled with childcare costs doesn't make them well off. I would like to have a second child but am rapidly running out of time and the reality is I will never be able to afford it and I worry that I do not have enough left at the end of the month to put by for old age as life as it is is about covering the costs of living. But no relief is given to those who have worked their nuts off to get where they are.

Why do poor people get poorer? We live in a country where everyone is entitled to a free education so an opportunity is available to everyone to make a better life for themselves but it seems many children are not interested and concentrate more on their peers and all this gangland culture we hear about in deprived areas. I appreciate there are people who may not be equipped to better themselves for various reason but it is them who the welfare state should be there for. I grew up in one of the poorest boroughs in London so I don't buy that you can't make something of yourself and my partner was kicked out of school at 14, never sat a formal exam but he has forged a successful career for himself staring at the bottom up and putting in the graft. People need to take responsibility for themselves if they are to change their lives