I am so hacked off with people saying they like the libdems but won't vote for them..(42 Posts)
because they have no chance of getting in!
if all you fuckers got your fingers out and did vote for them we'd have a libdem government!
they are the ONLY party with grown up policies for grown up intelligent people imho.
quite apart from the fact that they are the only party that challenged the legality of the iraq war.
Here is Anatole Kaletsky in the Times saying why a hung parliament might be a good thing
Because proportional representation, while it look more democratic on paper, frequently leads to very small parties holding the balance of power.
What tends to happen is there is a proliferation of small parties, often gaining one or two seats. The major parties don't get enough seats for an overall majority, so it is these small, often single issue parties, that end up holding the bablance of power.
Israel is a good example, where the far right, orthodox parties hold enough seats to force concessions from the more moderate parties. They can just as easily withdraw their support if they don't get their way, leading to the govt losing it's majority and forcing either a re election or another scramble for concessions and power. Italy, until Beresconi, averaged a change of power every two years. Even NZ, which went over to mixed member proportional about 15 years ago has felt the disproportionate affect os small interest parties.
You end up with a voting system that is, in all probability, more democratic, but a system of governance that is even less.
Proportional representation - whoeever said turkey's don't vote for Xmas is right.
If there were a hung parliament and I was holding the balance of power, I would be demanding the adoption of some kind of system of PR as the price of my co-operation with either one side or the other. But UnquietDad is right - there are a lot of types of hung parliament scenarios
An interesting tangent as Sophable mentioned Iraq: Iraq currently has a kind of PR electoral system (party list), adopted post 2003 war on the advice of the UN. The UK supported this approach (to cut a long stort short because it didn't want to see one group gain overall control of the country). Anyway it begs the question - if we can recommend it for Iraq, why not here
Good points, perhaps I will reassess my voting strategy.
I know so many people who vote LibDem (or at least claim they do)....
DP says it's because we know a disproportionate number of middle class, guilt ridden, handwringers (and he includes myself, my parents and many of his friends in that damning statement!!!)
I don't suppose the'll sweep to victory, but it's worth remembering that, even without a hung parliament, LibDems hold a huge amount of political influence, if you include local politics and the national campaigns they have supported (like helping the Ghurkas).
My one year old has started campaigning early and is all ready for a spot of leafleting and canvasing
There are lots of different kinds of hung parliament, of course - the Lib Dems won't automatically hold the balance of power in one, if their seats are fewer than the difference between the other two parties. (Admittedly this would mean a lot more minority parties getting more seats than they currently do.)
Its's interesting that they are always asked what they;d do in the event of a hung parliament, and yet the Tories and Labour are rarely, if ever, asked. Interesting window on the way the media perceive the choices to be made.
From a Nick Clegg email today:
"Almost 1 in 4 voters chose the Liberal Democrats at the last election. If that increased to 1 in 3, we could lead the next government."
Put like that, it sounds so easy... in practice, moving to a 33% share of the vote would be a pretty big achievement - but it's true: if you find that site (I can't remember what it's called) where you can input different vote percentages, you find that once the LDs reach a certain percentage of the vote, whole swathes of the country suddenly start turning yellow... the reason being that the LDs are in second place in so many constituencies.
nickelbabe - I don't want the Tories to get in - that is my main concern...I make no apologies for that. You cannot change the world overnight
so how about changing your own mentality, electra?
"it's just a drop in the ocean but every ocean is made of millions of little drops"
that's how the campaigns for recycling, not wasting water, using less power, etc started.
people have to change their own minds.
if you think you'd like it if libdem gerts in, then you have to vote for them!
don't just sit there saying "but i can't because noone else is going to"
I will be voting LibDem
i always do
"how would we change the mentality of enough people to make a libdem victory possible?"
By taking part in the election campaign, no matter in how small a way. All parties rely on volunteers, but the Lib Dems in particular - success in a particular area is dependent on how effective a "ground war" is fought there. The reason the LDs' poll ratings go up during election campaigns is because the extra delivering/canvassing activity reminds people of their existence.
(apologies for being in such a recruiting sergeant mode, but it's true that you only get what you want if you make it happen...)
You're right sophable, but how would we change the mentality of enough people to make a libdem victory possible? For me it comes most of all to not wanting a Tory government again.....and I want my vote to count against that.
But if I thought libdem could win I'd vote for them most definitely.
electra how can they possibly get in if thousands and thousands of voters think like you and don't vote for them?
it's a vicious circle.
"I'll vote for you if you win," as they say.
I would vote libdem if I thought they would get in.
just wanted to add to my previous post - I don't want a hung parliment as such, but the polls are suggesting it may go that way, and I really don't want DC as my PM.
Its such a shame that UK politics is so limited in real choice. My old Bristol constituency nearly had a Green MP, but the vote was split with Respect, and as a result neither got in. At least with PR a better reflection of voter choice is seen in council seats etc. The flip side however is also seen - in Norway the Christian People's Party (far right conservative) are in and Nationalism gets a foot hold, but then thats democracy: a reflection on society, warts and all.
I don't know the answer - addressing voter apathy would make a huge improvement; we see more excitement about the US election than our own in many of my age group (understandable when its Obama, but Bush?!!)
I just want to keep my local surestart centre
so what's the rest of you's excuse for not voting libdem then?
Oh I'm used to being ignored nickel - 90% of what I say on MN gets ignored!
it wasn't supposed to be an explanation, sponge!! i just didn't want you to think i'd jumped on DWP's post and ignored that you'd mentioned it first!
(truth be told, that's about all i know about hung parliament, so you'd be welcome to fill in the gaps )
the best thing is for as many people as possible to put up Lib Dem posters in windows, then it becomes clearer that there's a groundswell of LD support in a seat where the LDs are in with a chance, and more and more people feel enabled to vote LD there. IMO window posters are better than all the barcharts in the world...
I agree OP. Voted Lib Dem at the last general election, mainly as a protest against Iraq, as did lots of others in my constituancy and we ended up with a Lib Dem MP in what was previously a fairly safe Labour seat. Yay!
Since then I've read more on Lib Dem policies and on the whole they seem like the most sensible party for me to vote for.
I do hate that they seem to get involved in lots of mud-slinging on a local level though.
Lol nickelbabe, thanks for your explanation of a hung parliament - I have a degree in politics so I do know about hung parliaments!!
I didn't say I was convinced we were going to get one either, I said it was the best we could hope for in terms of one party finally being prepared to introduce PR.
The last time we had a hung parliament was in the 90s when the Tories clung to power with the help of the Ulster Unionists - not good. Maybe this time the strongest party would finally do what would be best for politics in this country in the long term - but I'm not at all hopeful tbh .
Oh, and a Labour vote in this constituency really is a total waste of a vote cos of 'first past the post' - I'm probably one of ten Labour voters in the whole constituency!
I totally agree with you OP, as does my DH and my parents.
Got no chance of anything but Tory here but oh well.
i will be voting libdem again, for the 3rd time running in 2 different areas.
Mainly because the libdem guy here is the best one for the job. He is excellent and I am not impressed by the other candidates.
Not sure how much difference it will make to the overall election result.. hope they stay in round here tho!
DWP: i still don't understand why everyone's convinced there'll be a hung parliament!
(sponge to you too!)
it makes no sense.
a hung parliament happens if there isn't a clear majority or if too many people abstain from voting.
it really is the worst thing that can happen!
even a coalition is better, and no political party would ever agree to that in peacetime.
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