Clegg v Farage Round 2

(66 Posts)
WetAugust Wed 02-Apr-14 19:01:51

Roll up for Part 2!

WetAugust Wed 02-Apr-14 19:09:52

Q1 - neutral

Q2 - pro EU

claig Wed 02-Apr-14 20:14:26

Clegg was terrible. i think he got slaughtered this week.

He came over as pompous, ill-informed, defeatist and even deceitful.

Pre-prepared lines and jokes, devised by Oxbridge teenage spinners who have never worked in the real world, that fell flat and the patronising

"Where are you Clive?"

type statements as he searched the audience to find the questioner, while having been per-prepped to remember their names. That is the level of the spinner. Terrible performance.

claig Wed 02-Apr-14 20:16:16

Sky are saying that the poll results are "startling". I think Farage will slaughter Clegg, but they can't release the polls yet.

claig Wed 02-Apr-14 20:18:58

Yougov poll
Farage 68%, Clegg 27%

Guardian
Farage 69%, Clegg 31%

I think Clegg is not only a spinner and a patronising, deceitful operator, but I actually think he is thick. he does not have the intellectual capacity to operate at that level.

WetAugust Wed 02-Apr-14 20:37:48

Clegg was terrible. I think he got slaughtered this week.

Really? I would have given this round to Clegg, even though I can't stand him. I just think his performance will have pulled the eyes over the public - again.

The 'remembering-the-name-of-the-questioner is something he started during the last GE televised debate. Puke-worry!

Clegg came across as bombastoc, pompous, over-prepared and evasive. He demonstrated no faith in the UK's ability to govern itself or even defend itself - duh, that's why we're a member of NATO!

But he will pay for this performance because there is no way that the EU only make 7% of our lawys and he was so adamant about that figure you could almost hear the journos stampeding out of the studio to the HofP library to check.
To get to 7% I think he have to include every bye-law ever passed by every parish council grin.

But it's just another example of Clegg's reckless streak - like when he said he's slept with less than 30 women - the Cleggover affair. Why does he come out with this 'dodgy' stuff like the 7% that he knows he a lie and that he should know will get found out. I guess that's why he's a politician - he's a risk-taker.

Nigel was subdued to the point where he looked defeated. At one point Dimbers was doing the Clegg-bashing on Nigel's behalf while he just watched grin
Nigel perked up a bit in the middle and ended not too badly. Liked the bit when he accused Clegg of telling big EU porkies. I think Nigel felt like I did - what's the point in debating with someone who is lying to support their cause?

Anyway Nigel is obviously reading Mumsnet because he issued an open invitation to the public to join my Popular Front for the Overthrow of all Establishment Politicians. He actually called for an overthrow! Bless!

I hate EU debates - I want to throw things at the telly. But the BBC wasn't as biased as I expected them to me. Perhaps they have seen the error of their ways now John Humphries has admitted that the BBC may not always have been what our Fox News friends call 'fair and balanced'.

claig Wed 02-Apr-14 20:42:33

'I would have given this round to Clegg'

Are you drunk?

Twitter poll
Farage 76%, Clegg 24%

Clegg is finished. I think it is now over for him as leader of the LibDems. He is not up to it, he is useless. A senior job in the EU beckons for him, that is all he is good for.

claig Wed 02-Apr-14 20:46:19

'Why does he come out with this 'dodgy' stuff like the 7% that he knows he a lie'

His Oxbridge advisers and spinners tell him what to do and say. He hasn't got an original thought in his head, he is actually stupid. They must have advised him to say that last week, which is when he first brought it up. That shows the calibre of his LibDem team. He is useless, but so are they. Shocking.

claig Wed 02-Apr-14 20:49:14

'But the BBC wasn't as biased as I expected them to me.'

I think even the BBC have smelt the way the wind is blowing and even though they dislike it, they don't want to discredit themselves with the public, so they couldn't be biased towards Clegg. Plus, he is such a thick loser, that backing him would be suicide.

CraftyBuddhist Wed 02-Apr-14 20:53:42

Clegg has lost it.

And his closing statement demonstrate again his contempt for SAHMs! Any chance to stick it to us mums at home, eh nick?

claig Wed 02-Apr-14 20:55:16

His closing statement was so lacklustre and phoney that I didn't even finish listening to it. What did he say about SAHMs? I missed it.

CraftyBuddhist Wed 02-Apr-14 21:58:17

His assertion that farage wants us to go back in time to days when blah blah blah women stay at home blah blah blah.

So subtle. But it betrays his contempt for SAHMs.

WetAugust Wed 02-Apr-14 22:21:43

The trouble with Clegg is that he actually believes there is no need for separate countries and that having one big entity called 'Europe' is actually better than having a lot of disperate little countries. In his mind he can't see Britain making it's own trade deals, defending itself etc etc. He thinks we can only do that effectively if we are part of this big 'Europe'.

Once you realise that, there's no point in trying to debate with him. He's so thoroughly European through and through. His background is Dutch, Polish, Russian, Ukranian and British. he's married to a Spaniard, speaks five languages, has worked for the EU..... He is so throughly European I expect he would even describe himself as European rather than British. I suspect that he thinks he is more 'modern' in outlook than the average English bloke too. I can see how, with that sort of background and experience, that little England probably does seem quite quaint and old-fashioned.

But you can like Europe without having to like the EU. That's where I think he has lost the plot. I cannot see how the EU can be defended when its own auditors have refused to sign its accounts.

Unless your future includes a plan to return to work for the EU.....

WetAugust Wed 02-Apr-14 22:41:34

So, return to your constituencies and prepare .... to join the Peoples Army and otherthrow the Establishment.

Never thought I'd live to see that grin

And the opinion polls are crazy! Some organisations maust really be trying to keep UKIP happy or (more likely) be attempting to screw what they can out of the current Big 3 who must be running very scared.

It's the May local elections that should worry them - not the EP election, MEPS have no power anyway.

Chacha23 Wed 02-Apr-14 22:51:39

I'm super pro EU, but Clegg got slaughtered. He was horrible - instead of answering the questions and responding to Farage's arguments, he kept going back to clearly pre-prepared talking points and repeating his own lines. Ugh.

Farage in my opinion is wrong about most things, but an excellent public speaker. Then he does have an easier job - always more comfortable to criticize the status quo than to defend it. And his referendum point is unanswerable.

Spinflight Thu 03-Apr-14 00:44:21

I felt rather sorry for those of a pro-EU stance Chacha. There are plenty of people down my local pub who could have done a better job than Clegg did tonight - even Nigel pointed out that through telling porkies he wasn't doing his position any favours.

It is an important debate to have, and more watched than I think the politicians realise. To have a proper debate though you can't have a clown up on stage taking Farage on, it has to be someone of substance. Someone who could put the case honestly and openly.

That our deputy PM showed just how limited and scripted he is tonight is another matter. At a few points I thought he might have had a few too many stiffeners before the debate - bloodshot eyes, slurring and repeating himself... He was a disgrace not just to the pro-EU camp but to Britain as a whole as well.

Isitmebut Thu 03-Apr-14 01:03:02

I watched this second debate and thought it was ‘a game of two halves’, with Farage easily winning the second and had a very strong finish/summary.

In my opinion although both had problems answering the questions directly, Clegg was far worse.

Furthermore Clegg is a perfect example of the pro European’s that mentally (and practically) have signed up to the ‘EU project’, but can only look at the big picture, the means to an integrated European end, so chooses to ignore the daily problems of ‘the people’ getting there.

Farage on the other hand, is v.good at stating the bleedin’ obvious, on issues that worries the ‘the people’ on the sharp end of ‘the project’ accentuated by the worst recession in 80-years; less jobs, homes and public services – which allows him to answer those questions honestly, while Clegg (or any Europhile) can only try to change the subject - which ‘the people’ spot immediately, hence Farage’s lead.

If Clegg could never have answered the people fears directly, he should never have challenged Farage and proved that politicians have no answers to negative social issues connected with staying ‘in’.

Clegg is not finished, those who insist we stay in throughout Europe KNOW there are no answers to the likes of open door immigration, so unless Europe changes (which I believe in key issues like open borders it will) Clegg will just be seen as an outrider, taking one for the ‘project EU’ team.

niceguy2 Thu 03-Apr-14 10:57:40

Great.....so Clegg's utterly bolloxed his own party and now seems to be doing a good job at bolloxing our chances of staying in the EU.

Sure I totally get that the EU isn't perfect but I hate the theme that 'mass immigration' has been the blame for our modern economy.

Immigration as a whole has benefitted us way more than the drawbacks. The notion that without immigrants from the EU that we'd suddenly all have jobs is simply fanciful.

Also if the EU is such a bad thing. Then why have so many countries flocked to join and want to join. Look at Ukraine. They're literally spilling blood for the chance to join in the future. Scotland definitely wants to join if they become independent and Wales wants to stay in the EU too.

So why oh why are we so keen to get out?

claig Thu 03-Apr-14 13:51:46

'So why oh why are we so keen to get out?'

Because we are net contributors who are paying for the bust countries like Ukraine who want to enter. It is big countries like the UK and France who have populations and parties that increasingly want to leave.

claig Thu 03-Apr-14 13:54:44

It is also the big, powerful countries that have populations and some politicians who do not want to accept our laws being made by unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats. It is smaller countries that often have no choice, but the large countries are no longer prepared to cede their sovereignty and accept a democratic deficit.

Isitmebut Thu 03-Apr-14 14:56:22

Niceguy2….Like most people my age, we were for a Common Market but had no idea it would morph into a Federal Europe – and what many don’t understand now, is that after the financial crash, the EU’s answer is to integrate/standardise more – so a referendum on Treaty changes currently set in UK legal stone, could happen soon anyway. IMO..

My main problem is the sheer size, regulation and inefficiency of the EU, which may be fine if trading amongst yourselves and equally handicapped, but in a global market place where we are competing with the likes of China, without all those expensive handicaps (or funding of a welfare/benefit economy no matter how desirable), they will always have a pricing advantage of their goods, over Europe.

Get rid of the expensive and regulatory drag and allow a two-speed Europe, where we stay out of the Eurozone, remain the main financial centre, but still have influence within, and I’d vote stay in.

P.S. While you may think immigration is fine when we had such high unemployment figures in 2004, I do not, as action was needed to both make work pay and train people for existing jobs back then, as all the domestic social issues that resulted i.e. over 1 million 16-24-years olds by 2010 and extra housing needs, can not compensate for extra GDP gowth back then.

Chacha23 Thu 03-Apr-14 15:01:56

That's a bit of a generalisation claig. The French are getting much more critical of the EU, but if there was a referendum in France today for the EU or the Euro, they would still decisively vote to stay in. They don't want to leave, they want reform.

Personally I feel very European rather than just French. I'd be happy with a democratic federalist EU. I realise that's a very uncommon feeling in the UK, though!

claig Thu 03-Apr-14 15:08:43

Yes, you are probably right there, Chacha23.
I was getting carried away hoping that the French wanted to leave like many of us do. smile

WetAugust Thu 03-Apr-14 15:14:25

The notion that without immigrants from the EU that we'd suddenly all have jobs is simply fanciful.

Yes, I agree it is fanciful. But it's also crazy for this country to have so many o its own hom-grown citizens languishing on benefits because they do not have the skills that employers require, so the employers recruit from the wider EU.
Years ago employeres would take someone, usually a young person, who had few skills and would train them. The training budgets in most organistaions have withered away, as they can just 'import' people with teh skills they need. That does not benefit the lowly skilled domestic unemployed. Hence I get on a bus driven by a Polish bus driver to eat a meal at a restaurant where I'm served by a Slovakian waitress and the taxi driver home is Croatian. All entitled to work in this country and all working very hard in jobs with anti-social hours. But you cannot deny that they are also taking the sort of jobs that could be done with some upskilling of the unemployed domestic population.
So immigration is good for employers, but not so good for those who are in direct competition for the type of work the non-Bristish EU workers are undertaking.

Also if the EU is such a bad thing. Then why have so many countries flocked to join and want to join. Look at Ukraine. They're literally spilling blood for the chance to join in the future.

Not Crimea. It voted to align itself with Russia. The EU is only popular with the rump of Ukraine because it's not Russia. They will soon realise who dictatorial the EU can be.

Scotland definitely wants to join if they become independent

For the EU handouts.

^ and Wales wants to stay in the EU too.^

I haven't seen a poll of the Welsh on that subject.

So why oh why are we so keen to get out?

For the reasons that makes Britain such an attractive place to emigrate to - our sense of 'fair play'. We do not like being told what to do by an an undemocratic, unelected body that has a toothless Parliament (as Kinnock admitted) that cannot make decisions - only ratify those made by non-elected bureaucrats.

We don't want to funnel �55M a day of UK tax-payers money into an organistaion whose accounts are so poor the auditors have refused to sign them off.

We don't want to be part of an organisation that aspires to have its own defence policy and the force to implement it. We don't need it, we have Nato. Try defending the Falkands when you have to rely on the EU for the means to do so. They wouldn;t even sell us the bullets the last time.

We don't need to be part of an outdated protectionist organistaion that prevents us from making our own trade deals with other countries and to be free from the EU retsrictions and tarrifs it imposes on imports from outside the EU.

It's s form of communism. We pay in and other countries take out. Why - because we are told they are our 'partners' and everyone within in this group should be brught up to the same standard. So we are effectively subsidising countries that should be our trading competeitors. That makes us uncompetitive.

I could probably think up another 10 good reasons.

Chacha23 Thu 03-Apr-14 15:15:02

claig, if it makes you feel better, they are definitely less and less happy with the EU! (sadly for me ;-)

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