The Labour Party....really?

(67 Posts)
BechuanaGirl Fri 27-Dec-13 16:29:50

I moved to Britain from Botswana when I was 16 back in 2005 for educational purposes. In all the time I've been here, I still fail to understand some of the....call it 'opinions' of the British, including the outward support for the Labour Party and democratic socialism. I don't want to have a political argument, merely an education as to why people support the Labour Party. Because looking at the facts, every time Labour has been in power for an extended period of time (two terms plus), the economy has collapsed. And the Labour administrations have in my mind introduced no progressive legislation (except for homosexuality, which was proposed by a Conservative MP, abortion and the minimum wage). They seem to be a total write off, even for socialists. And now they are being downtrodden and proven wrong by Conservative market reforms (Ed Balls said it wouldn't work, and it has shock) So could Labour supporters illustrate to me why they support the party, because I'm totally lost as to why. Apologies if my spelling is poor! wink

SundaySimmons Fri 27-Dec-13 20:50:15

Hi, I am a true blue Conservative voter.

This article sums up what I feel about the Labour Party

thebackbencher.co.uk/labour-the-party-that-hates-britain/

roadwalker Fri 27-Dec-13 20:54:25

They are all cut from the same cloth anyway
The Conservatives have built the economy on a deck of cards. They sold off all industry, nothing is owned by the Uk, they undervalued everything to attract foreign investment
All that's left is house building and that relies on ever growing debt and was the cause of the crash

BechuanaGirl Fri 27-Dec-13 21:11:50

SundaySimmons

I agree fully...I am a Conservative also, and the link clearly shows that Labour's input to the United Kingdom has been overall terrible and useless. So why do people continue to vote for them? Is there a large masochistic population?

BechuanaGirl Fri 27-Dec-13 21:22:00

roadworker

The fact the state owns no industry is a good thing, governments have no responsibility running business, businesses do. And who cares if the industry isn't home-grown or UK run? They provide jobs, which provides money. That's all that is necessary. The crash was caused by Gordon Brown borrowing money from every which way to fund benefit packages for the interminably lazy disadvantaged. I can confidently tell you that homegrown industry is not a developer for a recession. I am a Motswana (person from Botswana) and that country is essentially a banana republic with no home-grown industry. Diamond mining from De Beers et al. (was) the only source of income for Botswana for most of its independent life, and we are the richest country per capita in Africa (dependent on whom you ask), and booming faster than the Four Asian Tigers.

TheGreatHunt Fri 27-Dec-13 21:23:31

Because the labour party give a shit about the majority of the population whereas the conservatives are a party for the rich?

roadwalker Fri 27-Dec-13 21:24:01

The bankers have proved how good privately run business is- capitalism at its best
This country has no way of making money

BechuanaGirl Fri 27-Dec-13 21:42:17

roadwalker, I beg to differ. Jaguar Land Rover, although owned by Tata, produce an incredible amount of profit for the UK. 4.5 billion of the 6.5 billion pound deals in China recently were JLR. Furthermore the shale gas and fracking exploitation in Britain will provide a steady revenue of profits. And for non-British industry, as the global economy is finally stabilizing, people are buying more stuff, and Britain believe it or not produces quite a lot of stuff (e.g. cars, not just JLR but many Japanese companies also), bringing a huge amount of profit toward us. And even if none of this was true, Capitalism has produced far better results than Communism/Socialism economically. You cannot deny that. The poor in a Communist system are worse off, or at least equally impoverished, than in a capitalist system.
My belief is that the socialist movement fights for income equality, which is totally impossible. We should work to make the poor richer, not make the rich/poor divide smaller.

BechuanaGirl Fri 27-Dec-13 21:43:51

TheGreatHunt, I hear you but can you give an example of the Labour government introducing a progressive system/legislature for the betterment of society as a whole (except the minimum wage, I will concede this as one good thing Labour did).

TheGreatHunt Fri 27-Dec-13 21:59:13

Minimum wage, the NHS, the welfare state? Read up on Victorian history - how this country treated the poor was awful.

You see it as labour ruining the economy, I see it as the Tories grinding down most people and labour having to spend to bring everyone back up to a decent standard of living.

You can see history repeating itself already. The Tories at the moment are seeing an explosion in food banks, failing to see that benefit claimants are human, not scrounging scum,
People cannot afford to heat and eat they have to choose?! Yet the rich are getting richer and the Tories do not care. They don't.

It makes me angry. I'm not a labour voter - simply because the recent labour governments have got it wrong. However I believe that the fundamental reasons for founding the Labou party were good ones (again I suggest you read a bit of history as to why the Labour party exists)

roadwalker Fri 27-Dec-13 22:14:50

Agree with above
Disagree you do not want a political argument, you sound like you have been storing up arguments and are looking for somewhere to use them

BechuanaGirl Fri 27-Dec-13 23:46:50

TheGreatHunt The NHS? really that's your demonstration of Labour's progressiveness? The system frequently considered the worst in Europe? I've found a few policies actually worth talking about that labour introduced, and the NHS isn't one of them.

BechuanaGirl Fri 27-Dec-13 23:49:50

I am arguing because you are making me, you especially road walker, you didn't give me a reason to support the Labour Party, you gave me a reason to hate the imperialistic Tories...I asked for a reason to support them, not reasons to not support their opponents.

Oakmaiden Fri 27-Dec-13 23:53:45

The system frequently considered the worst in Europe?

Really? By whom?

BechuanaGirl Sat 28-Dec-13 00:20:59

Generally by people. It's expensive, unreliable and debilitating. I do think universal healthcare should exist, but the system introduced doesn't work at all.

EverythingInMjiniature Sat 28-Dec-13 01:01:24

The uk spends 9.6% GDP on healthcare, the OECD average is 9.5% 2012 data, so not a particularly expensive system

EverythingInMjiniature Sat 28-Dec-13 01:17:19

this shows latest health outcome data

UK performs around the median or better for medical outcomes eg life expectancy, infant mortality, cancer survival whilst having fairly poor non-medical data eg alcohol consumption, obesity, smoking etc.

Not perfect but far from the worst and in no way the most expensive in Europe

Slh122 Sat 28-Dec-13 01:17:35

Do you have a universal healthcare system in Botswana? Or do you have a system like the USA where you have to pay, either through insurance or other means?
My dad lives in the US and his partner suffers an array of health problems. Her medical costs have financially crippled her. She can no longer use the ER as she can't afford the rising insurance or the upfront bill each time.
However - if I have a health problem, I go to my doctor. It costs me nothing apart from maybe £8 for a prescription. When my dad's partner had an A&E admission this year, it cost her $3000.

merryxmasyafilthyanimal Sat 28-Dec-13 01:24:00

"People vote for themselves, don't they." << Conservatives

'"Labour ruined the economy." << Conservatives who fail to acknowledge the economic problems were GLOBAL BANK failures.

merryxmasyafilthyanimal Sat 28-Dec-13 01:26:54

Also you're wrong when you say that the nhs is considered crap "generally by people". Yes people moan about it sometimes but generally those with more than an iota of intelligence recognise it to be brilliant.

merryxmasyafilthyanimal Sat 28-Dec-13 01:31:09

What would the conservatives have done instead of Brown's bailout?

antimatter Sat 28-Dec-13 02:06:45

I think in order to educate yourself about why people vote Labour (or Conservative for that matter!) you need to read lots after this thread gets filled up smile

Have look at his article. I think it is a good starting point.

bookishandblondish Sat 28-Dec-13 02:28:37

I think it's very naive to compare the need for home grown industry in a population of 2.1m to a country with 63m.
I think it's also naive to assume that poor people simply need to become richer without addressing the divide. When poor people become richer, so do rich people and so the inequality continues - or increases.
As for the reasons, currently, I would suggest that this country needs a strong opposition - one which is capable of taking the next election. The coalition has continually passed legislation which was not part of either parties manifestos ( and as a result, not mandated) - the NHS reforms have made changes which can't be changed back.
In terms of labour - labour introduced legislation such as comprehensive and open university giving access to the entire population, equal pay for women, legalisation of abortion and homosexuality, national minimum wage, pensions, race relations and discrimination.
I'd also suggest that employment figures based on zero contract hours are very different from employment figures where people earn consistent wages. That having international businesses setting up shop is good if they pay taxes and pay wages: not if they don't pay taxes and want staff available without the responsibilities of having staff.

But mostly, why do we need to persuade you? If you don't want to vote labour, don't vote labour. Thankfully, this isn't a one party country yet.

giggly Sat 28-Dec-13 02:58:44

I just don't understand the argument BechuanaGirl that the NHS does not work. If this was the case why has the number of people choosing private health care in the UK , which is readily available, not increased substantially.Having worked for the NHS for years and now living in Oz where I pay through the nose for healthcare including children's health, I know which system works best.

I assume people who complain about the NHS don't use it, keeping the services available for those who are content with it.

CustardoPaidforIDSsYFronts Sat 28-Dec-13 02:58:54

actually the conservatives ( and the previous labour govt) undermined the nhs by backdoor privatisation.

labour were in charge when the economy collapsed - this is true - their failing was to not force more regulation on the banking industry
HOWEVER, the conservative govt at the time wanted LESS regulation for the banking industry

regarding nationalisation of industry - you just have to look at the rail debacle fiasco fuck up - we are pissing well paying for it anyway again and again and again.

at some point if all the people at the top take everything from the people at the bottom - there will be nothing to take

the conservative government are not trying to fix the problem, if they were they would collect the 40 billion in taxes that corporations owe this country

they wouldn't give contracts to their friends and talk talk talk about payday loan companies whilst not doing anything about it becuase they recieve HUGE contributions from fucking Wonga.

the conservative party are persecuting the poor, they are literally starving people. this country can well afford to look after the less well off if the proper taxes were collected, yet the tories are pushing an ideology on the back of austerity

austerity my arse when they refuse to collect this money from big corporations that would absolutley look after the sick and the disabled in this country - they are not interested in doing that AT ALL.

they are interested in profit - profit for themselves, profit for their chums

We paid for ian duncan smiths underpants for fucks sake.

you can't boil it down to a simple statement of 'socialism doesn't work' when it is clear that capitalism doesn't work either ...hence the banking crisis

we are proping up capitalism - WE the people are.

the current political system, where we do not look after the most vulnerable in society in favour of paying for ian duncan smiths £39 breakfast, letting Ian duncan smith spout utter bile about benefit fraud, yet he committed benefit fraud, whilst letting people like Ian duncan smith pay his wife to do fuck all, with OUR money, it is a joke.

where the conservatives put in place a system where people work for benefits - in an economy where 4 people are going for every job - people need a job that pays a wage - and they are fewer becuase now WE THE PEOPLE are PAYING companies to take on people for FREE - these companies, lots of whom have ties with the conservative government.

the conservative government who isn't stimulating the economy, the conservative government who are perpetuating the insane boom and bust cycle with the help to buy scheme ( which will come to fruitition around the time of the next election) it might get them in power again ( god help us all) but this is so short sighted for the country as a whole.

but this is the party who voted AGAINST a debate - just a debate on foodbanks, the welfare of the people of this country are not a concern.

the education of the children in this country are not a concern, it it were there wouldn't be education on economies of scale, forcing schools to merge into huge acadamies so that the cost goes down. superficial fucking about with the names of exams whilst providing fuck all support for teachers and no investment in education.

something must change, there must be something inbetween the greed of 99% of politicians on both sides who serve nothing but their own interests

how is it that these very rich people on 80+ K a year ( plus consultancy and outside interest monies) can claim for their heating, lighting, underpants, food, cleaners non existant secretaries - YET people starve

it's just not right, its not,

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