Does anyone know why UKIP want out of Europe?

(33 Posts)

Dp found out today but surely it can't be true? All that money shock

kyya Sun 30-Jun-13 15:42:24

There are quite a few mis - truths here so far, please go read the UKIP website
"Although unworkable IMO, wanting out of Europe is one of the more palatable policies of UKIP. Removing maternity rights, increasing tax for low earners are the policies I have more of an issue with."

everything is completely wrong in this statement, as an example they actually dont want low earners to pay any tax at all, there's obviously some serious biased opinions on this site. Please I was never into politics at all then realized how stupid I had been after witnessing the mess and idiotic policies of labor then tory/ lib, I am voting UKIP as I looked at each parties policies first hand and decided the 3 major players were 1 and the same. do your research and judge for yourself instead of believing the lies some people put on here.

ivykaty44 Mon 20-May-13 19:29:32

Can I ask though if we were to come out of the EU and then pay half of what we do now - £3 billion ...then what would we get back out

and

what do we get back now from paying in £6billion?

Wuldric Mon 20-May-13 19:17:44

Oh Ivanhoe, you are spouting bollocks

Admittedly not as much bollocks as I have just spouted (but that was tongue in cheek)

The UK has one of the very highest income tax rates in Europe. Apart from the Nordics, where the rates are still around 50%. Go check your facts, ducky.

Wuldric Mon 20-May-13 19:16:00

It's a closely held secret, BUT, I have it on the best authority that Nigel Farage is allergic to garlic. This has automatically created a problem with France, Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal.

The nordic countries are a little too liberal when it comes to babydancing, and though it's not an allergy as such, I don't think that Nigel approves.

That just left Benelux and Germany and Eastern Europe. No-one ever remembers Belgium, the Netherlands have this whole ganja smoking thing going on. And Luxemburg? Frankly it was a mistake to start with. The Eastern Europeans are not Europeans at all. They are just pretending. This is because they are all communists and need to infiltrate Europe and report back to Moscow.

So, well, there's Nigel's map of Europe. It's not necessary at all.

ivanhoe Mon 20-May-13 19:07:06

The UKIP want us out of Europe because of their high income tax rates. We British pay very low income tax rates.

Dawndonna Tue 07-May-13 14:36:02

Trouble is, it's all those little things with UKIP.
Jack Biggs not being allowed to stand because he's disabled.
Comments stating those not working shouldn't be able to vote.
Nikki Sinclair leaving the party because she refused to band with the far right parties that UKIP have allied themselves with in Europe.
The fact that the UKIP members have the worst attendance record in Europe.
The 2 million or so Farage has claimed in expenses.
hmm

niceguy2 Tue 07-May-13 11:55:47

The problem is that most people don't see the benefits that Europe brings us but they do see the negatives.

So take for example the human rights legislation. Yes of course there are some using it to take the piss. But that doesn't mean the entire act is rubbish and we'd have done a better job in the UK. It's a law which protects all of us.

Ditto with trade. We see firms 'dodging' paying UK tax but we fail to look at UK companies who are not paying French (or EU) taxes because we're all members of the EU.

The thing is that the world has changed. The UK is no longer some super economy. We're about 8th in the world and as the bigger countries with better natural resources and lower labour costs continue to grow such as Brazil, China, India etc. It is inevitable that we will continue to slip.

As such we will need to remain members of the EU to be able to leverage economies of scale. Wind forward 20 years and the UK will be just a little country whom is economically insignificant in the grand scale of things. But the EU as a bloc will remain a large market which other countries will definitely want to develop relationships with so they can trade.

That's why I think I'd rather stay in the EU.

Each country pays in, each country gets some benefit back. It wont be the same amount, the richer countries will be net contributors whilst those currently poorer will be net recipients. That's kind of the point of the EU, the more well off members help their younger developing members to grow.

flatpackhamster Tue 07-May-13 10:34:47

It was one bloke who was suggesting that on his personal website,and when the party found out they gave him the boot.

Of course the leftists have been having a field day with it, trying to imply that it's party policy when it isn't. But it's all about play the man and not the ball, because if you tried playing the ball you'd have to come up with reasoned arguments in favour of rule by Brussels and mass immigration. And if there's one thing they can't do, it's reasoned argument.

Abortion for disabled foetuses? shock I didn't know that.

Although unworkable IMO, wanting out of Europe is one of the more palatable policies of UKIP. Removing maternity rights, increasing spending on defence, increasing tax for low earners are the policies I have more of an issue with.

That and their members posting pics on twitter of Nazi salutes, and one member advocating compulsory abortion for disabled foetus's.

Basically if you aren't a high earning, straight, white male then life would be much harder for you if UKIP were in power.

tiggytape Sat 04-May-13 18:43:14

lljkk - I don't know as they would pull out. It is possible the government will set any referendum to say the result won't count unless 60% or 70% turn out to vote (which is a huge figure in terms of voter turnout - the average for London Mayor and local elections is around 40%).

You might get a 52% turnout who all say yes but it won't be acted upon.

And we won't get any referendum at all unless the Tories win a majority in 2015 which is hardly something anyone is banking on.

lljkk Sat 04-May-13 18:35:25

I actually hope you're right, Flatpack, about my "half truth" arguments. Because if it goes to referendum it's pretty obvious that UK will pull out. sad

Dawndonna Sat 04-May-13 18:26:33

Thanks everyone for all this information.

I really am interested and unbiased. I'm not a UKIP member trying to highlight their plus points but am wanting solid answers.

I used to be staunch Labour, mainly as was brought up mingling with the councillors, my mother worked for the Labour offices. Then LibDem member but have left them now. Now I'm in limbo.

One thing I did notice the other day was the leader of UKIP being interviewed by the rudest interviewer ever! He'd asked him a question then just as he (NF) started to answer he (presenter) would get all arsey and butt in hmm I think he was trying to be Paxman but failed miserably.

flatpackhamster Sat 04-May-13 13:14:56

lljkk's post is an excellent example of the sort of half-truths and dissembling that the Independent Britain campaign will be fighting when the date for a referendum is established.

flatpackhamster Sat 04-May-13 13:12:45

lljkk

Look at the terms that Norway & Switzerland have to sign up to if they want no trade barriers and free(ish) labour flows with rest of Europe. They still end up paying a huge amount of money but they have NO SAY in how it's spent. This is what UKIP want Britain to do, too. It is not a case of withdraw from Europe and pay nothing more into EU.

For Norway-type relations with EU, UK would pay about £3 million, maybe half of what it currently does to the EU (but with no say on regulations that UK would have to follow).

That isn't correct. 80% of the money that Norway pays in, it pays in voluntarily in order to participate in the EU's research programmes.

Interestingly, in some fields we would have more influence. Some areas, like fisheries and agriculture, or vehicle safety, are increasingly managed at a global level by UN legislation. Norway, as a sovereign nation, has its own representation at the meetings to discuss the legislation. The UK is represented by the EU. We have no individual membership at those meetings. See Dr North's blog on the subject for more information.

PlentyOfFreeTime Sat 04-May-13 13:12:11

Until a few years ago UKIP was a single issue party. The only policy was to leave the EU.

UKIP stills wants to leave the EU.

It all boils down to the question of 'what is a country'.

Some of the things that any country should be able to do are:

Set its own tax rate
Control its own borders in terms of who it admits and who it refuses entry to
Should be able to defend itself
Should be able to make its own laws
etc, etc etc

Many of those things we are no longer able to control as we have lost the sovereignty over these issues when we derogated powers to the EU.

So, we no longer fully control our own borders as we must admit any person who is a citizen of a fellow EU country. That's why there's this fuss over the entitlement of additional Eastern Europeans to come and live here from 2013.

We no longer make all our laws as we have to accept that EU law takes precedence over UK law unless we explicitly opt out of specific EU Regulations.

So, according to UKIP the criteria that underpin the ability to call yourself a self-determining country are being dismissed or removed by our membership of the EU and the only way to recover that sovereignty is to leave the EU.

The UK pays £53million pounds a day for EU membership. The waste within the EU is depressing as it has vast armies of bureaucrats on huge salaries at a time when Cameron is drastically reducing the UK Civil Service in terms of numbers and conditions. The EU has also failed its audit for several years - so there are questions about where the money has actually gone. It's wasteful in having to up sticks and move between Brussels and Strassbourg every year which wastes millions in terms of manpower, transport and disruption.

UKIP also dislikes the fact that many of these EU officials are not elected. They are appointed by their Govts (e.g. Kinnock, Chris Patten, Peter Mandleson etc). That means you and I have no say in their appointment and cannot vote to remove them - a democratic deficit according to Tony Benn's test of:

What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you use it? To whom are you accountable? How do we get rid of you?

Cameron seems to think we can negotiate with the EU to cover that lost sovereignty and still remain in the EU. But he's running out of time for negotiations before the next election in 2015 and any referendum on any revised membership terms would have to take place post 2015 by which time the Tories will probably have lost power.

UKIP has now expanded its manifest from the single issue of leaving the EU to encompass a whole host of traditional Conservative ideals (grammar schools etc) in order to appeal to a wider audience.

PetiteRaleuse Sat 04-May-13 12:40:13

It's not as if our money goes to the EU and gets poured down the drain though. Most of it comes back in grants, investment, subsidies, cheaper products, lower export costs.... I agree that the cost of the EU parlialent needs to be brought down but on the whole we benefit enormously from being in the EU.

NSWmaybe Sat 04-May-13 12:40:02

More to the point, does anyone know how UKIP plan to do anything with Europe with their local council seats? Planning and youth services aren't really part of their agenda.

lljkk Sat 04-May-13 12:38:11

Eek, sorry, typo in last, should have read £3 billion on top line, not million.

Sorry, Xpost, I suppose they are expensive but for reasons that probably don't have to do with EU membership, different tax regime, for instance.

lljkk Sat 04-May-13 12:36:05

For Norway-type relations with EU, UK would pay about 3 million, maybe half of what it currently does to the EU (but with no say on regulations that UK would have to follow).

The best estimates I can quickly find is that Switzerland pays about 250 million euros/annum into Europe at the moment, but they don't have the same worries about manufacturing exports access because of nature of their economy (not same worries as Britain would have, I mean). Swiss population = 8 million, so suggests £1 billion annual payment for UK if UK wants a Swiss-type relationship with EU.

I'm reading completely contradictory things about whether the Swiss HAVE to follow EU regulations in many areas. I think the short answer is legally no, but practically yes, because they can't market things in EU that aren't EU-regulation compliant.

Thanks for that lljkk. Dp did mention that Norway and Switzerland aren't in but they're also very expensive places to live in aren't they?

lljkk Sat 04-May-13 12:23:59

Look at the terms that Norway & Switzerland have to sign up to if they want no trade barriers and free(ish) labour flows with rest of Europe. They still end up paying a huge amount of money but they have NO SAY in how it's spent. This is what UKIP want Britain to do, too. It is not a case of withdraw from Europe and pay nothing more into EU.

I'm surprised at the amount, I didn't realise it was so high.

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