Justice part 2.

(233 Posts)
MaryRobinson Wed 17-Apr-13 00:22:25

Here we go

YoniTime Wed 17-Apr-13 21:10:15

"What about lingams, huh? What are feminists doing about them?!"

YoniTime Wed 17-Apr-13 21:10:57

Lingam discrimination!

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 21:11:37

Have you ever seen them post on the same thread at the same time? Conclusive.grin

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 21:37:17

"He believes that women lie about contraception as standard."

5 posts in and the bullshit starts flying. Show me where I said that they lie about contraception as standard. What I said and still claim is that women have more potential to be deceitful. Stop posting twisted words; it makes you look dumb.

"He believes that women should take all responsibility for contraception,"

Show me where I said that. Show me where I said women should take responsibility for ALL contraception. You can't, because you're twisting and making things up.

"because poor subjugated men are forced to remove condoms and spend their lives working for women."

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....

"He is no doubt going to tell us that women should have no right to choose not to end a pregnancy, if their 'less privileged' male demands that she does. He is also going to suggest that, if a man doesn't want the woman to terminate, that that man should be able to force her to continue to with the pregnancy. "

I wouldn't bother trying to guess what I'm going to say because it really is pointless.

"The language will be more flowery, but the end result will be the same. "

The end result to anything is ALWAYS the same, because it is the end.

"Reading this thread has almost turned me into a feminist, I honestly had no idea such dinosaurs still existed."

Shaming and insults. Ducks back.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 21:51:40

"To save time, I agree that there are more contraceptive choices available women than to men. This is largely because there are only two options, barrier and hormonal. And so far no effective hormonal contraceptive has been developed for men that has an acceptable level of side effects. I also agree that should she wish to do so, it is easier for a woman to lie to a man about her contraceptive status than it is for a man to lie to a woman. "

Seeker, I applaud you for sticking your neck out. Ok, so do you agree that it's safe to conclude that where a particular individual has more choice over someone else AND they have more potential to be deceitful, it follows that they have more power?

For example, at the time of intercourse, SHE has more knowledge of exactly what is going on i.e. full knowledge of her own body and the choices she made, as well as full visibility of his existent (or non-existent) condom.

HE can't really lie about anything. He either wears a condom, or he doesn't. And it's all visible to her.

So this really does give the woman more power.

Do you agree?

"However, the man still has to decide to take the condom off. Properly used, a condom is one of the most simple, reliable and safe methods of contraception- and it is entirely in the control of men."

No. This is where you're wrong. Because wearing a condom is NOT entirely in the control of the man. Shall I tell you why? Because if SHE wants him to wear one (which is entirely socially acceptable) and he doesn't want to, then she has the power to say NO I don't want sex then.

The woman ALWAYS has more power in these decisions. And, like you say, it's HER body, so surely she would use the power to do the right thing for herself. Yes?

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 21:58:40

Ok, despite misgivings, I'm prepared to engage with you Vadark. I've obv read the previous thread and know this one so far. Long threads 'mature' so I'd wish this one to as well. I'd like to engage with you as it is rare to have a poster with some stamina, and argument, and shouldn't be dismissed as the usual troll type.

So I'd like to give you a benefit and enquiry. I don't feel hopeful about it, but "strive,seek, find" springs to mind.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:02:39

"but I think CaptChaos has probably answered for him."

CaptChaos (an aptly named alias if I ever saw one) can only speak for themselves, nobody else.

"I think he's just an old fashioned misogynist at heart"

You'd just love that to be the case, wouldn't you, because then you would feel some amount of warmth and self-justification. Sadly, I'm not a misogynist. You'll find everything I stand up for is based on true equality and fairness to all, including men, women, children, no matter what race or religion. If that means having to argue against the shear amount of misandric hatred that is getting spouted out around here, then so be it. Have you ever stopped to listen to yourselves?

"In conclusion, I would say that the original thread did a great service to feminism"

I doubt it. Feminism is dying. And I can see why it's getting less and less accepted just by partaking in this thread and witnessing the shear level of self-importance exhibited by feminists. The selfishness is beyond compare.

YoniTime Wed 17-Apr-13 22:03:48

I actually have 2 questions for Vardark.
1. What's the purpose of your visit to Mumsnet?
2. Do you think it's common for women to remove the condom from a man during intercourse, or force him to do so, and force him into becoming a father?

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:04:21

"It's often useful to 'rub up' against people who you disagree with, as it helps to better define and refine your own views and opinions."

At last, some sense from Pan.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:05:45

".....active men's rights activist on this thread amounted to the desire to have sex without assuming responsibility for either contraception or the consequences. How primitive. "

Who said that? Show me.

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:14:01

Yes, thanks for that comment, Vadark. The problem is that having your views and opinions 'better defined' in this case, drives me, and CptChaos, more toward feminism it seems, which is a sort of unintended consequence?

As rhetoriticians, which posting here means we are, it's retrograde to 'distance your audience'. Often you have to roll with the punches and not respond to every quibble, which you seem to be doing.

I'm still a bit unsure as to why you wish to spend time here, when your natural audience and potential supporters lie elsewhere in cyberspace?

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:14:26

"Vardak, men have no hope in this world if people like you are going to be representing them"

I am NOT representing all men. I am simply telling you that feminism is outdated and selfish and needs to pull its socks up.

"....spend 500+ messages defending your right to fuck without a condom and then do a runner on your child. This is seriously low."

The moderators must know that you're an idiot for saying that. I'm sorry but I don't know what else to say other than you're an idiot for saying that I said something that I clearly didn't say. Hang on a second, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps someone else said it and you inadvertently confused them with me. Do me a favour and find the post where you thought I said that and I'll take it all back. I meann, seriously, what YOU have just done there, which is to blatently lie is the seriously low part. Dear me!

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:17:35

c'mon Vadark, roll with the punches. Make your position on things arguable. Don't be taken down dark alleys of confusion. Seriously.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:20:00

"Ok, despite misgivings, I'm prepared to engage with you Vadark."

I feel honoured. You got a four-pack of Duracells handy by any chance? And I'm really weary tonight cuz it's been a really hard day oppressing all those women out there. Phew, such hard work for a guy these days.

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:22:56

Well, I'm being honest Vadark, no piss-taking or schmaltz at all. It's an invitation.

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:29:53

<realises I've just offered someone 'out' on the internet!> grin

But you get the message, Vadark?

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 22:33:52

"The woman ALWAYS has more power in these decisions.

Only if you think that men have an uncontrollable urge for sex. Personally, if I were a man, and a woman said "I won't have sex with you if you wear a condom" I would say "Fine-I'm off then.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:34:25

"I actually have 2 questions for Vardark.
1. What's the purpose of your visit to Mumsnet?"

Edification and enlightenment. Pan gave you a good reason to listen.

"2. Do you think it's common for women to remove the condom from a man during intercourse, or force him to do so, and force him into becoming a father?"

Not via force in the way that you are inferring, no. But, it is likely that a woman could encourage it for various reasons. Perhaps they are in love at the time, or maybe she wanted the experience of feeling the 'real' sensation of...sorry, too much detail. I agree the same could be said for the man. However, don't forget that she can trick him if she really wanted to and he can't do that very easily.

The point I'm making is that SHE has more control and power over choices as well as FULL visibility and risk associated with a potential outcome. She has the edge over him and that's a fact.

So phase 1 is really in her hands, and it's HER body so surely she wouldn't want to screw it all up by failing to make the wrong choices that are at her fingertips??

Now, I'm certainly not saying that all women are like this. What I am saying is that some women who get themselves into a mess blame the man and that's quite simply unfair.

But we haven't even got to Phase 2 yet!

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 22:36:22

Because that's exactly what I would say to a man who wanted to have sex with me without a condom if I didn't want a baby and i wasn't absolutely sure of whatever contraception I was using myself.

Anyway.nis that phase 1 over?

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 22:38:22

You are remembering that my original question concerned a genuinely accidental pregnancy?

And you have noticed that the feminist hordes haven't descended on me and ripped out my liver because I agreed that women have more contraceptive choices than men?

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:40:56

Links to other internet stuff, Vadark.

To do that here you:

type [[ then copy the address of the item. Then put in a space. then type the words you wish to title the reference. Then do a ]] at the end. People will be more inclined to click on it rather than have to c'n'p a whole hhtp address into a browser.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 17-Apr-13 22:41:04

<holds Pan's coat>

<realises Vadark just said "it's HER body>

<faints>

<drops coat>

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 17-Apr-13 22:45:25

I agree with seeker - women have more contraceptive choices.

(Piercing a condom can be done by either sex though, and would be pretty invisible.)

I also agree with seeker that i would say no to sex without a condom if someone was trying to persuade me out of condom use. either i would walk away or i might suggest other activities.

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 22:45:56

Oooooooooh, are the boys fighting??????

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:46:40

Well yes, you have a point about 'a good reason to listen'. But again, I'd imagine some petrol head type sites would be a better harvest,non?
And again the arguments you have posited so far drives me more to the feminist end of a 'spectrum'.

Still, I'm wishing to stay with your rhetoric, though we vastly disagree.

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