Justice for Men and Boys - Isn't this exactly why we need feminism

(1000 Posts)
wickeddevil Sat 30-Mar-13 22:27:42

Heard Justice for Men and Boys Founder Mike Buccanan on Womens Hour earlier today complaining that men pay 72% of all income tax.
Well isn't that because they have more income?
And instead of complaining about the feminist agenda doesn't it demonstrate why we need it?

seeker Thu 11-Apr-13 23:54:11

"*"How exactly are we going to get to men and women paying the same amount of income tax?"

Women could volunteer for doing the same types of jobs that men do and join the 95% of work-related deaths group?"*

OK, I'll bite. What were all these incredibly highly paid (so incredibly highly taxed) jobs that men do that women won't because they are too dangerous?

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 00:02:07

"And I want proof, in links that men fought wars at the behest of women, for the sole benefit of women. And proof, in links, that every single woman of the time ducked out of active service (hint: you won't find any because men wouldn't let them fight). And a detailed analysis of how women instigate and control all wars and who fights them.
"

Men fight wars on behalf of humanity. Wars are a result of competition, greed, territory, food, money etc. EVERYONE benefits in the long run, I suppose. It's part of evolutionary circles of life. I hate war, it stinks. But war is inevitable, I think, and that's unfortunate. But who is at the forefront of the bloodshed? Who volunteers? Who conveniently gets to stay at home? And don't you think it is decent of men not to allow women to fight? You see that as bad for you?

Talk about making rope for yourself!

seeker Fri 12-Apr-13 00:08:16

Not sure if you've noticed, but there are women in the Services.......And it has been the largely male hierarchy that has kept women service people out of the front line, much to their frustration.

When you're talking about work related deaths, you' not talking about soldiers, are they?

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 00:10:30

"OK, I'll bite. What were all these incredibly highly paid (so incredibly highly taxed) jobs that men do that women won't because they are too dangerous?"

I bite back.

http://listverse.com/2008/08/26/top-10-most-fatal-occupations/

How many women do these jobs?

Check out this link. Notice how they refer to "people", not "men". That's because men are perceived as being expendable. If these people getting hurt and injured were women, "people" would be replaced with "women". Guaranteed. Listen to the news, you'll see.

http://www.careerbuilder.co.uk/Article/CB-127-Job-Search-Britains-Most-Dangerous-Jobs/

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 00:13:26

"Not sure if you've noticed, but there are women in the Services......."

How many. Give me the ratio.

"And it has been the largely male hierarchy that has kept women service people out of the front line,"

How convenient for women.

"much to their frustration."

Is that much to the frustration of the miniscule percentage of women wanting to go on the front line, or much to the frustration of ALL women?

When you're talking about work related deaths, you' not talking about soldiers, are they?"

No.

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 00:15:42

So, is anybody on this thread interested in the issues of our younger generation of boys and their future now? Your Sons? Are they important enough to you? Do you care, even a tinsywinsy, tiny little bit?

Maggysinge Fri 12-Apr-13 00:19:27

I wouldn't bother bar dark you'll just be shouted down as a troll so they can carry on their little love in together. Stick their fingers in their ears and shout lalala I'm not listening you are wrong and we are right as usual.

Maggysinge Fri 12-Apr-13 00:19:59

Vadark that was meant to say not bad ark!

seeker Fri 12-Apr-13 00:25:37

OK- I've looked at your list of dangerous jobs. Noting that the word "guys" is used frequently, and the non gender specific "people" is pretty universally used- and would be used even if they were talking about traditionally female jobs. Which they aren't. Many of the jobs listd are traditionally male. Often, but not exclusively, because they are jobs that rely on physical strength and size. Not sure what you expect women to do about that -steroids? And often because they are jobs that are traditionally male "closed shops". You can't have it both ways- "wimmin comin' over 'ere, takin' our jobs" - and "women have an easy life because they aren't queuing up to be deep sea fishermen.

Oh, by the way, the number of women dying or being significantly injured in childbirth worldwide rather casts a shadow over the number of men killed because other men refuse to adhere to safety standards when constructing mobile phone masts.......

seeker Fri 12-Apr-13 00:26:39

Oh, and I do have a son. He seems to be doing fine. When should I start worrying for him?

olgaga Fri 12-Apr-13 00:34:05

Oh my goodness, is the implication here that mothers of boys are somehow neglecting their development?

Should we be encouraging them to strive for more equality with women?

Like lower pay, lower pensions, career breaks (unpaid), caring roles (unpaid)?

More chance of suffering sexual and domestic violence? Harassment at work?

Do tell us all what we are missing in relation to the upbringing of boys.

YouMakeMeWannaLaLa Fri 12-Apr-13 00:57:29

Vadark, your link is rubbish I demanded 'links to a breakdown of prevalence, seriousness, treatment and cost to the NHS of female vs. male cancers and I want undisputed proof, in links, that women are favoured over men'. You didn't give that. You gave one BBC article about the campaign for prostate cancer research and awareness that I fully support (having done a tabletop sale for Prostate Cancer UK at my college in March, I made £156.50 grin ...what have you done, btw?).

You have completely ignored my other points (unless we count the garbled, disingenuous comment on warfare...for the record my grandma packed her bag and went to sign up to fight in WW2, she wasn't allowed. A man stopped her. She stayed at home working in a munitions factory losing her father and brother...proper cushy eh!?).

There is just no reasoning with your contrary, disingenous claims. Please, please, please, tell me what you hope to achieve?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 12-Apr-13 01:01:53
CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Fri 12-Apr-13 02:36:32

I have a daughter and 3 sons. I am not a feminist - I am an equalist.

As I see it, nothing could be further from the truth in my own life than the things the OP and friends are posting here.

When I fell pg with my DD, her father denied she was his, and refused a DNA test until she was 12 years old, claiming that she wasn't his child.

The CSA was toothless to force him to take a test, and toothless to force him to financially support our DD.

The pg was accidental, yes, as we used not one, not two, but THREE forms of contraception - he wore a condom, I was on the pill. The condom split so I took the MAP. I still ended up pg.

He had known my personal views on termination - that I would only have a termination as a result of rape or if the baby had a condition incompatible with life.

There was NO trickery involved, other than at the point of multiple contraceptive failure, me except id'ing autonomy over my own body and refusing to have a medical procedure that I didn't wish to have.

I can't see many men agreeing to have a surgical procedure just because somebody they slept with wanted them to - they would make their OWN choice.

Due to this, I will be (and have been, with my DS1, who is 11) teaching my sons that every time they have sex, no matter what contraception they use, there IS a risk of a pregnancy, as NO contraception is 100% failsafe.

He (as my other DS's will be, in time) has been taught that if he does not want to be equally financially, morally and emotionally responsible for a child, then he needs to NOT have sex.

I have taught him that in having sex, he is accepting the risk that a baby could be the result.

I have taught him that he should ascertain what a potential partner's views on termination are BEFORE he has sex - because that way, HE has choices - if he disagrees with that woman's stance on termination, he can choose NOT to have sex with her.

I have taught him that HE and ONLY he is responsible for his own fertility.

And I have also taught him that he will be equally responsible for any child he creates.

I have taught my DD EXACTLY the same things - that NO form of contraception is 100%. That she will be equally financially, morally and emotionally responsible for any child she creates, and if she is not willing to do this, then she should NOT have sex. That if she chooses to have sex, she is choosing to accept that a baby could result from this. That SHE must be upfront and honest with any potential partner about her views on termination. That SHE and ONLY she is responsible for her own fertility. And that she will be equally responsible for any child she creates.

Isn't THIS the equality the OP and friends are looking for?

Or is it that the OP and friends are not willing to accept that no contraceptive is 100%? That they are not willing to accept that they will be equally financially, morally and emotionally responsible for any child they create, and if they are not willing to do so, that they should choose not to have sex? That they are not willing to accept that if they choose to have sex, that a baby could be the result of that sexual encounter? That they are not wiling to accept that it is up to them to as retain what a woman's views on termination are BEFORE they have sex? That they are not willing to accept that THEY and ONLY they are responsible for their own fertility? That they are not willing to accept that they will be equally responsible for any child they help create?

A man's choice whether they want a baby to possibly be the result of a sexual encounter ends at the point that that sexual encounter happens.

Because anything else would be for a man to be trying to have control over a woman's body, when it is that woman's body to control.

Just as no woman can force a man to have a vasectomy, no man can force a woman to have a termination.

Because everybody, man OR woman, has the final say in what happens to THEIR body.

So, it follows that a man has all the choices that involve HIS body when it comes to having sex and possibly creating a baby, and a woman has all the choices that involve HER body when it comes to having sex and possibly creating a baby.

So a man's choices that involve HIS body are : Whether to have sex or not. Whether to use a condom or not.

A woman's choices that involve HER body are : Whether to have sex or not. Whether to use hormonal contraception or not. Whether to have a termination or not.

The reason that a man has no say or choice over whether a woman has a termination is because IT IS NOT HIS BODY TO MAKE CHOICES OVER.

So men MUST make their choices at the point that they decide to have sex or not (accepting that if they do then there is a possibility of a pregnancy and a baby), and at the point where they decide whether to wear a condom or not (accepting that even if they do, there is a 1/100 chance that it could fail and cause a pregnancy and a baby).

The ONLY sure fire, 100% way to NOT create a baby is to...NOT HAVE SEX. Celibacy would ensure that there is no risk of a baby and the responsibilities that go along with that...

If you choose NOT to remain celibate, then you are accepting the risk that you might create a baby, and end up financially, morally and emotionally responsible for a child for the next 18 years.

But it is every man AND woman's choice to take that risk or not.

If you want equality, then don't discriminate between your DC's either way - teach them both exactly the same things, as I have, and drum into them as soon as they are old enough that EVERY sexual encounter could result in a baby, no matter WHAT contraception is used. And that you FULLY expect them, boy or girl, to take a 50% responsibility for childcare, a 50% responsibility for financially providing for that child, a 50% responsibility towards that child's emotional development...basically that they, not or girl, need to make their choices carefully...

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 12-Apr-13 07:24:56

Great post, Couthy. Absolutely - the equality is there because each person gets to make the choices involving their own bodies.

NicholasTeakozy Fri 12-Apr-13 08:54:45

Men fight wars on behalf of humanity

What an utter crock of shit. If you think that what is happening in Afghanistan and Iraq is anything to do with humanity and nothing to do with corporate interests you are even more stupid than you appear.

I'm at a loss to understand why you keep coming back, seeing as every time you post you get mauled and schooled. Oh, I get it! You don't like dissent, it's your way or the highway. Tbh Vadark, if your stupid could be weaponised we could bomb our enemies back to the nursery.

MaryRobinson Fri 12-Apr-13 09:01:42

Couthy Yes amazing post.

Vardak says ^"How exactly are we going to get to men and women paying the same amount of income tax?"

Women could volunteer for doing the same types of jobs that men do and join the 95% of work-related deaths group?^

I think you have this backwards on a couple of points. I think that the effort spent get women to be miners/construction workers would better spent making those industries safer for the workers. The advent of HSE regulations has saved lives over the years, and that's based on an acceptance that workers are worthwhile human beings in their own right and contrary to your thoughts are NOT see as expendable.
The other point is that many dangerous/higher salary careers are dependent on someone else (almost invariably a woman) doing the man's share of his family duties. For example male dominated off-shore working depends on women at home looking after children. So we could turn your argument on it's head and say that men could just do jobs which allow them to do 50% of the childcare.

To this point "How exactly are we going to get to men and women in relationships having 50/50 shared childcare?"

The reply is Give men the same choices that women have, same time off when having a baby, get women studying and training to be competent enough to get into the higher paid jobs such that when the couple have a baby the lower earner (could be the man more so in that case) could stay at home.

Again, I beg to differ. The majority of women with one child work. The majority of fathers with one child do not do 50% of the drop-offs/ pick-ups /nappy changes/ doctors appointments. First name on the creches list to phone is almost invariably the mother. Men today, in their own families could choose to do 50%, and mostly they choose not to, why not?

to this "How exactly are we going to convince both sexes that they risk pregnancy every time they have sex? "

the answer is this ^ Education. Good parenting. Sensible youngsters. Explain to her that she can't always trust him. Explain to him that he can't always trust her. Cuts both ways.^

I'm not sure what you'd be teaching kids but if it is anything less than what couthy is teaching her kids, I won't be supporting it.

to this "Feminism is not the cause of the 'inequalities' you are complaining about - wake up and smell the coffee."

the reply is They are only interested in themselves. This thread proves it. They are too deluded to understand the damage they are doing to themselves. Terrible really. Feminism could have been so powerful. What a shame.

I actually found this really confusing. I genuinely don't know what you mean. Could you explain

to this "Still trying to get women to do all the work for you?"

Vardark replies It's quite obvious that you have no intentions of lifting a finger for a men. You are far too self-centred.
Again I'm confused. Which specific things do you want done for you

Blistory Fri 12-Apr-13 13:21:58

Vadark,

I was 11 years old the first time a man thought it appropriate to comment on my physical attributes – what are YOU doing about that kind of situation?

I was 14 years old the first time a man thought he had free rein to grope my breasts and make lewd comments – what are YOU doing about that kind of situation?

I was 18 years old when asked by my first boss when I was going to have children as it was inconvenient for employers to have to tolerate maternity leave – what are YOU doing about that kind of situation ?

I was 19 years old when I first got pregnant and the father decided that he didn’t want to be a father so left and hasn’t been seen since – what are YOU doing about that kind of situation?

I was 21 years old when I had to change a flat tyre on my car on a country road, in the dark when some sick fuck pulled up behind me and tried to persuade me into the back of his van – what are YOU doing about that kind of situation ?

I was 24 years old when a healthcare professional undid my blouse whilst I was under sedation and only stopped when he was disturbed – what are YOU doing about that kind of situation ?

These are the obvious ones that stand out in memory and do you know what really makes me angry ? It’s the fact that this level of abuse is so commonplace that most women don’t even register it for what it is. What are you doing to prevent men from thinking that they have free access to women’s bodies ?

Men do the above things because they believe, whether consciously or otherwise, that they are entitled to treat women as second class and we live in a society that does little to tell them otherwise. Men are bombarded with messages from birth that tell them that they are the default sex and that women are ‘other’. When ill, they can expect to be nurtured by their mothers and wives, when seriously ill, they can expect to be treated by a consultant of their own sex. When committing crimes, they can expect to be arrested by police of their own sex, tried by a Judge of their own sex. When entering higher education they can expect to be taught by members of their own sex, when entering employment, they can expect to be interviewed and managed by some one of their own sex. When they’re beaten or raped, they can expect it to be by members of their own sex. When disparaged and told to ‘man up’ they can expect to be told this by their own sex. When they want to father a child, they can walk away and not be condemned by their own sex. When they worship a god, he’s likely to be of their own sex. When they visit church etc, they’re likely to be preached to by a member of their own sex.

Men can walk into any pub without the conversation stopping. Men can sit at a bar by themselves without being hit upon. Men can defend themselves physically against virtually any woman they come up against. Men aren’t told from a young age how to dress, how much to drink, not to walk home alone. Men aren’t expected to be the gatekeepers of virtue. Men can have children without any risk to their physical health or life. Men who get beaten up on a night out aren’t asked about their clothes they were wearing. Men can expect medication to have been tested on their own sex, they can expect advice on the signs of heart attack to be relevant to them – they’re rarely relevant to how women experience heart attacks. Men can expect the default language to be ‘he, him, his’. Men are rarely asked their marital status when irrelevant. Men don’t get given away by their fathers on their wedding day nor do they have to justify keeping their names.

When men enter the employment you mention as being dangerous or difficult, they are exercising a choice not available to women. When men suffer prejudice and discrimination, it is rarely down to their sex alone, it is usually due to class, race, sexuality, religion, wealth.

The above, is all pretty much low level, every day advantages that men don’t even realise they have.

Anything that men experience where they are directly discriminated against just for being men, I will happily challenge but my priority will be women. Women campaigned long and hard for shelters, for changes to legislation, for the right to equality. They don’t hate men, they hate bad men. They don’t want to replace society with one that favours women but with one that treats all equally. Once there is equality, then and only then will I have the luxury of being able to choose which cause to champion but right now with society as it is, I choose women.

CheerfulYank Fri 12-Apr-13 14:49:44

Exactly, Couthy and Blistory.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 12-Apr-13 15:12:07

<applauds Blistory>

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 18:41:16

"Not sure what you expect women to do about that -steroids?"

Nonsense,, most of those jobs could be done by fit females. Why do you always look for get-out-clauses?

"women have an easy life because they aren't queuing up to be deep sea fishermen. "

The point I'm making is that men contribute significantly more than you'd like to admit.

"Oh, by the way, the number of women dying or being significantly injured in childbirth worldwide rather casts a shadow over the number of men killed because other men refuse to adhere to safety standards when constructing mobile phone masts......."

I'm starting to get bored of correcting people.

Globally the number of childbirth deaths has dropped from more than 500,000 a year in 1980 to 343,000 a year in 2008.

Just in case you ask for evidence....http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1265572/British-women-likely-die-childbirth-communist-states.html

Whereas, globally, 2 million people are killed at work each year. 95% are men so I'll leave you to do the maths.

There are lots of lins to stats but here is one:

http://www.ohsrep.org.au/news-views/features/two-million-killed-at-work-each-year/index.cfm

Vadark Fri 12-Apr-13 18:47:18

"Oh, and I do have a son. He seems to be doing fine. When should I start worrying for him?"

Seriously, I'd start right now.

And by the way, everyone, I'd just like to point out that despite my posts coming across short and sweet and to the point, I am in no way the slightest bit interested in goading anyone here or insulting anyone or causing anyone distress. If it comes across that way and you are offended then my sincerest apologies to you.

I come on here to show you that feminism is making a BIG mistake in neglecting the needs of half our population and my intention is to get you thinking outside the box. I have been doing my best to answer virtually every post and statement but it is difficult due to the shear amount of insults and shaming tactics coming my way and the number of people posting untruths and incorrect stats.

BasilBabyEater Fri 12-Apr-13 18:47:21

Vadark do you get rape threats from women when you campaign for men's rights?

Because women get rape threats from men when they campaign for women's rights.

What are you selfish men doing about that?

BasilBabyEater Fri 12-Apr-13 18:50:37

Feminism doesn't neglect the needs of half the population.

Patriarchy relegates half the population to being there for the use and service of the other half.

When feminists stand up and say that's wrong, MRA's like Mike Buchanan and Valdark feel it's an attack on their rights - because men have the right to access to women's bodies and services (domestic, sexual, emotional etc.) and women who say they have the right to have their own lives, unfocused on men, are selfish and in fact are attacking men's rights.

Because they cannot conceive that women are actual human beings like men, entitled to put their own lives, welfare and interests at the centre of our campaigning.

We're there to serve men. When we don't do that, look how huffy they get.

BasilBabyEater Fri 12-Apr-13 18:52:10

I'm bringing up my son to know that people without vaginas are as human as people with penises.

When he grows up, he'll have better relationships with women and be happier than these bitter MRA's.

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