UKIP second in Eastleigh...anyone from Eastleigh care to comment?

(215 Posts)
SequinsOfEvents Fri 01-Mar-13 04:04:40

Bit tongue in cheek but wowsers! 11,000 votes! Crikey!

I am living abroad at the moment and am pleased to be! Can't come home with current political situation....how depressing

SequinsOfEvents Fri 01-Mar-13 12:59:33

I've read a bit more now and some interesting debate about racism vs valid (?) immigration fears especially in second and third generation immigrants.

What I don't understand are the previous immigrants now passing comment on the next wave. You can't seriously oppose other people coming to the same country you did looking for opportunities to better themselves just as you did 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

I say this as a child of two Irish immigrants. I would be particularly cross if I ever heard my own father discuss immigration. I do get cross when my aunt discusses it - she honestly cant see the hypocrisy!

Perhaps people feel validated saying that the country can't cope with anymore and enough has been done but I still really dislike hearing friends discuss it too. I am not sure it is one you can discuss rationally without sounding a little bit racist possibly entitled and, again possibly, unwilling to help those less fortunate than yourself.

I take the point that is being made about mass immigration maybe not helping the UK anymore but it stills jars with me and even slightly left leaning people are allowed opinions.

I will probably stop short calling all UKIP voters and immigration worriers racist from now on though! Definitely on MN anyway! smile

SequinsOfEvents Fri 01-Mar-13 13:10:13

Alright Wobbly - well done MNHQ for amending my title - I said I take it back but you just had to add your comment did you? Jeez....

I think I'll back away graciously as, apparently, you can't even take things on board, say you'll read more before coming back and be perfectly gracious without it still being said the some are glad MNHQ came down hard on my wording!

I will refrain from posting for a bit I think and will continue my own personal feelings regarding UKIP voters as exactly that, personal!

It's ok to think somebody who disagrees with you on a fairly divisive subject is racist in your own head! I'll go back there to do some thinking - and avoid you lot for a while!

tilder Fri 01-Mar-13 13:12:21

Ukip may not be ostensibly racist, bu it is on the fringes of politics, and onthe right. Imho political extremes tend to do well at times of recession, or when people are dissatisfied with more main stream politics.

Just because a party has received a superficial makeover to give a veneer of the mainstream, it doesn't necessarily follow that this will go in very far.

I'm sorry, but in my mind ukip sits somewhere between the Tories and parties with an even more right wing agenda. I am not comfortable with that and it does worry me that this makes policies that lie further to the right of the Tory party acceptable to more people.

SequinsOfEvents Fri 01-Mar-13 13:13:38

And PS I am glad to be away from the UK still. I suspect you are glad not to have me too if the scornful tone directed at any UKIP opposers is anything to go by

Right - I really am backing away now. I do apologise to anyone this thread has irritated.

olgaga Fri 01-Mar-13 13:14:51

Tansie I agree there are plenty of "don't haves" in Eastleigh itself, but none whatsoever elsewhere in the constituency - Bishopstoke, Hedge End, West End, Fair Oak etc. You won't find many of them anywhere near the Eastleigh's "main street" with its over-abundance of charity shops and pawnbrokers and that grumpy little market. You're more likely to find them in Winchester or West Quay!

Yes Thornden is indeed fantastic - as you would expect of a state school without a single council estate within its catchment area. Toynbee? Not so great, less academic, but still better than many state schools.

What I meant by "largely unaffected by national issues" I had more in mind issues such as welfare reform, NHS, education, transport etc.

I certainly agree with your analysis of why UKIP did well. Growing numbers of East Europeans in Southampton and Eastleigh, pressure on local schools and services whether real or perceived, an excellent UKIP candidate, very poor UKIP-lite Tory, joke Labour candidate. Plus the fact that there is generally high satisfaction with the Lib Dem administration of the borough.

I also agree with your comment Tansie.

I think a constituency like Eastleigh was ripe for a UKIP protest vote - my only surprise was that Farage didn't stand himself. I think he'd have been a shoo-in.

No doubt he has his eye on another similar southern constituency to take from the Tories, which will no doubt give him greater satisfaction!

vesela Fri 01-Mar-13 13:15:40

Are we going to retreat into a world where you're not allowed to leave your country? Or maybe no one should be allowed to leave their own parish - that would make things nice and simple.

Tansie Fri 01-Mar-13 13:25:42

Sequin you say "You can't seriously oppose other people coming to the same country you did looking for opportunities to better themselves just as you did 10, 20 or 30 years ago."- well, yes you can, and are maybe more likely to do so if you arrived with nothing, were given practically nothing yet worked your way 'up' to a position of relative affluence, well-settled, proper tax paying but contributing, not taking; then see 'incomers' arrive who threaten to 'take away', to push you further down a queue, because yes, I believe you'd have every reason to feel 'entitled'. You entered into a social contact: I'll work hard, I'll pay my way, I'll contribute to this country financially and socially- the trade off being, when and if my time of need comes, there's be some pay out for me.

I will wonder how much 'it will jar' with you when and if you ever found yourself trying to find another primary school for your DC because the local one was suddenly full of unplanned-for incomers, or (and whispers here)- your DC was one of only 2 non-'Eastern European language' speakers in her class... and found herself socially excluded as a result (true documented story- an extreme example, yes, I grant you) BUT the point I am making is that it is the poorer people in more deprived areas who do find themselves 'exposed' by uncontrolled mass-immigration such as a lot of people in Eastleigh and governments ignore their voice at their peril.

As I stated, DH is an immigrant, arriving on an ancestry visa (though he could also have applied on a spousal visa). This cost us £650. Once here, he had 'no recourse to public funds' for 5 years and only emergency access to the NHS (though that was never, ever checked or challenged- it should have been). So if he were unemployed- no dole, no housing, no JSA. In fact, after 3 months in a temp job, he did become unemployed, I had to go back to work (with a 2 year old), to pay the rent for the few weeks before he got the permanent managerial job he's still in! And yes, I'm still working PT.

Since then, 10 years odd ago, DH has done nothing but contribute to the country. He finds our open-door immigration policies completely nuts.

I hold dual citizenship with Australia. To gain this, I had to be on their occupational shortage register (HCP, so yes), have no dependents and be under I think it was 35, and stay in my job!

Yes, we may always need immigrant care workers, spud pickers etc (though questions of our own unemployed potential workforce could be asked!) but I am not sure we are, economically, in a position any more to financial provide for their 'collateral'. This way social unrest lies.

Tansie Fri 01-Mar-13 13:28:03

And how can it be 'racist' when the person of whom I speak, for instance, my DH, is a bloody foreigner grin but of exactly the same race and ethnicity as me?! His grandad came from Shropshire.

Tansie Fri 01-Mar-13 13:32:20

Q: (*vesela*) "Are we going to retreat into a world where you're not allowed to leave your country? Or maybe no one should be allowed to leave their own parish - that would make things nice and simple."

No, not at all. I think you'll be welcome to leave your village, parish or country- just like now!- just that you won't be allowed to freeload on the villagers/parishioners/countrymen in your new location. Which means if you don't have the wherewithal, either in terms of cash or skills, you'll be 'on the street' in that new country. Which you'll need to consider before emigrating there.

What's hard about that concept to understand?

tiggytape Fri 01-Mar-13 13:35:04

What I don't understand are the previous immigrants now passing comment on the next wave. You can't seriously oppose other people coming to the same country you did looking for opportunities to better themselves just as you did 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

There were periods in our history when we actively encouraged people to come to Britain. We needed skilled workers during the Industrial Revolution (a lot of immigrants were great textiles workers), we needed to rebuild after the years and years of War during the 20th century. We have also traditionally welcomed those who were persecuted elsewhere and are known for this stance. The difference now is that not everybody wishing to come has a profitable skill or is fleeing persecution and the country they are coming to is already bursting at the seams - a shortage of 90,000 school places in London alone is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of resources streched to breaking point.

Maybe it is selfish to pull up the drawbridge and say that we don't currently have the resources to support those already here (whatever their race) so wish to discourage more coming (whatever their race) but it is something a lot of other countries have always done and to them, it is not racism, it is economic necessity.

olgaga Fri 01-Mar-13 13:41:49

Sequins You can't seriously oppose other people coming to the same country you did looking for opportunities to better themselves just as you did 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

Well people can - and do - for exactly the same reasons as those whose families go back longer.

It's one of the reasons why the debate about immigration has moved on - it's not just ideological, it's more about practical issues such as unemployment, the cost of welfare, pressure on schools and limited social housing. Once immigration only affected the poorest in their council estates. Maybe no-one else here is old enough to remember "Hard to Let" council properties!

The shortage of council/social or any affordable housing, the introduction of buy-to-let and the Local Housing Allowance has allowed "waves of immigration" to be experienced much more widely throughout communities instead of just being concentrated in sink estates.

The reason UKIP will benefit from this is simply because it isn't possible to restrict immigration from EU countries as it is with non-EU countries. It wasn't really an issue while most EU countries were affluent, but as soon as the EU began to widen its borders to take in less affluent countries, unrestricted immigration was always going to become an issue.

I suppose if you no longer live here, you might have missed this shift in the immigration debate, and the negative effect on opinion about the EU.

I think that's the main reason people see UKIP as a valid protest vote.

I'd just like to make it clear, having said all that, that I would never vote for them!

olgaga Fri 01-Mar-13 13:44:54

Doh, I meant to say in my post at 12:48:55 that I also agreed with lanie.

SequinsOfEvents Fri 01-Mar-13 13:50:50

All points noted. I still wouldn't vote for UKIP and haven't missed the shift in immigration debate (I did know these points but, as per real life, I never quite get my points across eloquently enough! Or write long enough posts!)

Anyway - I haven't been affected by immigration (bar positively I guess) so maybe my opinions are based on that somewhat ideological image as you suggest.

Thanks all - I will now argue around immigration into the UK differently

vesela Fri 01-Mar-13 13:53:03

Tansie - I agree that benefits shopping is not a good thing, although there's relatively little of it. But also, it's not benefits tourism on which UKIP focuses when it talks about immigration. It adopts a simple "we don't want them" rhetoric (as have some on this thread). And it whinges about things like foreigners going to UK schools, as if that were some sort of heinous crime.

When you talk about freeloading, are you referring to people sending their children to school?

I'm British, we live in another EU country and from this year my daughter's going to be in the state school system here. Are we doing something wrong? Should I have stayed in my own country?

claig Fri 01-Mar-13 13:56:33

Sequins, you started a good thread and of course we want you back in the UK. We don't take offence at your views, and your views are shared by many people. Many of us don't think UKIP are racist, just in favour of more controls on immigration.

SequinsOfEvents Fri 01-Mar-13 14:06:52

Hi Claig

I've popped the Guardian down to respond grin (I honestly am joking...it's not PA!) Thank-you for your reply.

I started a much more polarising thread than I realised - mostly because (as my husband always tells me) I speak too quickly and in tones too explosive and "at one end" to really trigger debate - just conflict and violently opposing opinions!

I will take a lot on board from here (about my posting style and topics for one!) but I thank you for reminding me that my (possibly ideologic) opinion is shared (I was starting to be totally swayed and thinking that living away has left me so out of touch with mainstream UK people) but also that UKIP supporters (or at least voters?) aren't all racist!

As I said, thanks all and I am sure we will come back one day and pay our way to support ourselves and others less fortunate than us. We will do so gladly.

claig Fri 01-Mar-13 14:11:31

We will welcome you back! Also there are many more lefties on MN than Tories or UKIPers and lots of them will agree with you and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Keep posting on here, because it has been quiet recently, and this has created some debate.

claig Fri 01-Mar-13 14:12:36

'I've popped the Guardian down to respond '

Shredding it would be better!

SequinsOfEvents Fri 01-Mar-13 14:17:28

I know! The leftie thing I mean....being brutally (and shamefully) honest, I thought the thread was a doozie for a load of leftie ranting! Was super surprised to be so slated from the get-go! Serves me right for being a d*ck!

And basically being told off / corrected for saying racist too - the shame

Anyway - glad to have livened up the politics board albeit totally inadvertently!

I will continue lurking but not sure I will post again. Back to the behaviour and food and sleep boards for me!

SequinsOfEvents Fri 01-Mar-13 14:18:30

Oh and I'm totes a Guardian reader as I'm sure you knew! #honestposterwhosayssorrywhenadiv

FillyPutty Fri 01-Mar-13 14:31:12

"We welcome discussion about UKIP and its anti-immigration policies but it would be unfair - and potentially libellous - to label the entire party, and everyone who has voted for them, as a racist."

Ahem.

Chris Bryant (Labour, shadow immigration, yesterday)

"Net migration is falling but public concern is rising.

These figures demonstrate that the government is not focusing on the kind of immigration that worries people the most."

Fact is, ALL the parties have anti-immigration policies.

Obviously UKIP are a very good place for protest votes, as, unlike the Lib Dems, they are nowhere near government.

AmberLeaf Fri 01-Mar-13 14:31:13

Is my Indian friend racist for considering voting UKIP?

Maybe a bit self hating and xenophobic.

UKIP as a party may not be racist as such, but thats because they have to conceal it somewhat or else they are just another extension of the BNP and they want to be taken seriously, but a massive chunk of their voters are racist, to deny that is a bit silly really. UKIP voters tend to be of the 'Im alright jack' variety too.

Sequins I agree with you about some immigrants of the past who are now being very anti immigration, massively hypocritical and a bit stupid really.

FillyPutty Fri 01-Mar-13 14:32:28

Nothing hypocritical about that Amberleaf, to immigrate in MY family, we went through very considerable hardship. Why should we be in favour of unlimited Poles/Romanians/etc. being able to just get on a plane?

AmberLeaf Fri 01-Mar-13 14:38:08

Filly but plenty didn't go through considerable hardship to get here, they often faced it once they were here though and that is the part that rankles, Ive heard people my age [pushing 40] who were born here but whos parents werent, some of the things they say are shameful, blaming poles for crime, calling them dirty etc etc, much like their parents faced from english people when they first came over here. They don't see the irony.

tiggytape Fri 01-Mar-13 14:58:59

Racism is racism though - calling someone 'dirty' based on their race is racism pure and simple. There are plenty of 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants who are not racist and do not behave this way even though in economic terms they may think the UK cannot cope with a high net migration figure.

It is possible to be racist no matter where you originate from, where you were born or where your family was born. Equally, it is possible support tighter immigration controls and not be racist at all if you are motivated by concerns over housing / schools / welfare / health services etc i.e. purely monetary concerns not cultural concerns. ALL major political parties support tighter immigration controls yet nobody would say every Tory, Labour and LibDem supporter is a default racist.

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