Who's coming on the anti-austerity march on 20 October? Sign in here

(58 Posts)
ninjasquirrel Tue 09-Oct-12 20:18:26

Given the anger on many other threads, I can't be the only one...

afuturethatworks.org/why-we-are-marching/

niceguy2 Mon 22-Oct-12 16:35:09

No, i'm saying we use some of the money we're saving via cuts to fund growth projects. Rather than keep spending regardless and borrow more money in the hope that one day it pays off.

And I think something's wrong with your computer. Maybe you need a new keyboard?

ttosca Mon 22-Oct-12 16:31:16

We can spend to fuel growth. But said spending should come from our existing tax revenues, not from borrowing more money.

If we're already in deficit, then any money we spend will, by definition be borrowed. Or are you saying we should stimulate growth only when in surplus?

It's just nonsensical to say that the answer to our debt problem is to borrow more money.

A national budget is nothing like a household budget. A national budget is nothing like a household budget. A national budget is nothing like a household budget. A national budget is nothing like a household budget. A national budget is nothing like a household budget. A national budget is nothing like a household budget. A national budget is nothing like a household budget. A national budget is nothing like a household budget. A national budget is nothing like a household budget. A national budget is nothing like a household budget. A national budget is nothing like a household budget. A national budget is nothing like a household budget. A national budget is nothing like a household budget.

niceguy2 Mon 22-Oct-12 16:19:20

....and makes it more likely that Osborne will succeed in trimming borrowing for 2012/13 to 120 billion pounds from 122 billion in 2011/12 (source)

We can spend to fuel growth. But said spending should come from our existing tax revenues, not from borrowing more money. It's just nonsensical to say that the answer to our debt problem is to borrow more money.

ttosca Mon 22-Oct-12 15:15:27

'nice'guy-

Your ignorance knows no bounds.

Please provide a reference for the £120 Billion figure. It looks hugely unrealistic. Secondly, the current deficit is bound to be large because we are in the middle of a double-dip recession caused by the financial crisis, which means tax revenue has dipped.

The structural deficit below the recession occurred was at 3%, which was slightly about EU average. Now with cuts in spending, it's more likely to be around 2% - which is roughly where it has been for the past few decades.

Secondly, It's nothing like an alcoholic needing more alcohol, as has been explained to you 1000 times before. Spending can actually increase growth and pull the country out of a recession, resulting in greater tax revenue and lower welfare costs, ultimately decreasing the deficit.

Cutting drastically, harming the economy, is a false economy, since it exacerbates and prolongs the recession. How many times, 'nice'guy? How many times?

JuliaScurr Mon 22-Oct-12 14:00:40

<waves to marchers>

Has everybody read 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists'?

Claig & co should smile

niceguy2 Mon 22-Oct-12 08:32:28

OK Solopower, let me revise my earlier statement to be more accurate then.

The anticuts protest is made up of two groups:

1) Economic flatearther's who don't believe any cuts are needed despite the fact we still need to borrow £120 billion per year. That we should keep borrowing because hey....we need to spend our way out of a debt crisis!?!?! It's a bit like an alcoholic saying he will quit drinking tomorrow.

2) Economic NIMBY's who believe that a few cuts are needed but not any cuts which affect them personally.

Paradisefound Sun 21-Oct-12 18:34:54

I was speaking to a friend today. His daughter moved out to Greece about 10 yrs ago. The daughter says things are so bad out there people are giving up their own kids.
The government has no choice - the cut backs are necessary to protect every bodies future.

grimbletart Sun 21-Oct-12 17:24:57

Yes ttosca - no need to lecture me. I'm retired but spent half my working life of 45 years as an employee and half as a business person so I think I may have gathered a little information over the years as to how capitalism and the world works.

I understand perfectly what you say but I think you have overlooked my qualifying phrase i.e that they couldn't afford.

Solopower1 Sun 21-Oct-12 16:57:46

Billfunk - what should we do? Go on marches, sign petitions, post on Mumsnet, write to newspapers, challenge the official version of events ...

What should the government do? I'm not a trained economist, but there are plenty in government who should be able to come up with a plan that's better than what they're doing now.

There is plenty of money around. If the Govt wanted to share it out a little more fairly, they'd soon find a way. But if we don't tell them that is what we want, they won't see any reason for change.

I work for UNISON and me and colleagues travelled down there. Had a fab day, think this year there was more support from the public which shows we are getting our message across grin

ttosca Sun 21-Oct-12 16:22:32

grimble-

Every single person except those who have lived within their means is to blame. But biggest responsibility was the Labour Government for economic innumeracy, the bankers for stupid risk taking and toxic debt and then every single person who took out a mortgage they couldn't afford or who maintained their living standards via credit cards and loans.

You realise, don't you, that if businesses 'lived within their means' and never took out loans, then they couldn't grow or expand anywhere nearly like they can when they have access to capital, and that many projects would never get off the ground, because it would be impossible to accumulate enough Capital within a reasonable time frame to fund it?

You do also realise that if consumers all 'lived with their means' then consumer demand for the past several decades would have been minuscule, given that wages have stagnated for the majority of people since the 1980s?

Capitalists want to have it both ways: they want to decrease the cost of wages to run business and reduce taxes which pay for services but also want to make sure consumers keep buying their products. The only way to square this circle is with access to credit.

So, in reality, the whole economic model needs to be looked at. It's a cheap shot to blame consumers for taking on credit in order to keep up with the cost of living and pay for goods and services because their wages are so poor.

grimbletart Sun 21-Oct-12 15:45:34

I suppose it's a question of who/what should be cut. A lot of people I know think that the people who hold the biggest responsibility for causing the crisis should be targeted first.

Every single person except those who have lived within their means is to blame. But biggest responsibility was the Labour Government for economic innumeracy, the bankers for stupid risk taking and toxic debt and then every single person who took out a mortgage they couldn't afford or who maintained their living standards via credit cards and loans.

Billfunk Sun 21-Oct-12 15:09:14

Solopower
"We do not have to accept the government's version of events. It doesn't make us flat-earthers just because we disagree with them. There are other ways of dealing with this crisis. In fact the only way out imo is to use our imagination and think of something that hasn't been done before. "

Sounds great! Specifically what should we do?

marmaladesandwich Sun 21-Oct-12 14:28:37

I agree with Solopower1.
I went on the march with my family (I am in UCU, partner is in UNISON). We had a great day and made our voices heard. The atmosphere was great, police light touch and smiley (anything to do with them realising they are just "plebs" too, d'you think?)
I was able to have some good conversations with my children about how you find strength in unity and cooperation with others, and there was some good (and some not so good!) music too.
Suggesting that you don't protest about something because noone will listen is tantamount to saying democracy is dead, and I wish half the people who told me they'd "be with me in spirit" had actually turned up.
Tory, Labour, whatever, you have to agree that over 100,000 marching is a large number and pointing out that the entire population of Britain less 100,000 didn't march is disingenuous and doesn't take into account why and how people protest.
I believe there have to be cuts - a lot of the people on the march felt there shouldn't be any at all. Miliband was booed, but not by everyone by any means and he was applauded too. Other speakers were also booed as well as cheered, but obviously that's not news. My concern - and why I marched - is that the cuts are being imposed for ideological reasons with which I disagree entirely, and I have yet to see evidence that they are saving money or reducing the deficit.
I came on mumsnet after a long absence (and a name change) to see if many MNers had been on the march. Looks like there's been a bit of a right-wing invasion, not surprising since it was getting a bit of a reputation as a leftist forum. smile .

Solopower1 Sun 21-Oct-12 11:18:33

Yes.

I suppose it's a question of who/what should be cut. A lot of people I know think that the people who hold the biggest responsibility for causing the crisis should be targeted first.

And the people who have no responsibility at all for harming anyone else and who are hanging on for dear life should be left alone or helped.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 21-Oct-12 11:14:09

"There were lots of people who didn't boo Miliband at the march. They might well agree that some cuts are needed"

By the same token there were a huge amount who weren't on the march at all. Would it be right to assume that a sizeable chunk of them also agree that some cuts are needed?

Solopower1 Sun 21-Oct-12 10:14:58

Look at it another way, Niceguy. If no-one protested, the govt would think we didn't mind being hacked at.

People march in order to raise awareness of the issues as much as anything else. Demonstrations can change things - at the very least, they force those at the top to think very carefully about any possible alternatives.

But they also raise morale among the marchers and can make others, who are also suffering, realise that they are not alone. They give us hope. They show us that there are people working on our behalf, even if we feel we can't do anything ourselves.

We do not have to accept the government's version of events. It doesn't make us flat-earthers just because we disagree with them. There are other ways of dealing with this crisis. In fact the only way out imo is to use our imagination and think of something that hasn't been done before. We have to keep up the pressure on the govt to do this.

There were lots of people who didn't boo Miliband at the march. They might well agree that some cuts are needed. Have you ever heard anyone say that no cuts are needed at all?

The govt are like toddlers, testing our boundaries. We need to show them when we've had enough.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 21-Oct-12 09:02:45

Wow you people are touchy! (And I'm not a 'he' thank you) The previous post said that Milliband was spouting his usual rubbish and I pointed out that he was booed. It's interesting because he's the Opposition leader. He's meant to be the alternative. So if the mob don't like the Coalition austerity measures and they don't like the Opposition's slower, shallower austerity measures 'lite', I wonder who they will be voting for when the time comes?

Lilithmoon Sun 21-Oct-12 08:40:23

niceguy you said of the people at the rally 'The audience today has no appetite for any cuts and believe the solution is simply to tax someone else'. You can't be sure what all those people were thinking.
I certainly don't think that the solution is as easy as tax someone else.

niceguy2 Sat 20-Oct-12 23:09:45

Lilith. I don't know what you are thinking. I don't pretend that you do.

What I'm saying though is if you think there's no need for any cuts then you are deluded. If you want to debate where to make cuts then that's fine.

Lilithmoon Sat 20-Oct-12 23:05:52

If you went, can you spot yourself here: pics?
niceguy how do you know what 100,000+ people, including me, think?

niceguy2 Sat 20-Oct-12 22:55:11

It depends what you mean by the status quo Solo.

If you want to talk about what we should cut then fair enough.

But if you (or anyone else) thinks that protesting against cuts will erm....stop the cuts...then there's no point in debating that.

Like I said, it would be akin to demanding that the government makes the world flat.

Personally I think Miliband has miscalculated by appearing on this march. The audience today has no apetite for any cuts and believe the solution is simply to tax someone else. In that context standing up and trying to say "I agree.....but we need to make cuts!". Well....it doesn't make sense and even if it did, it's not a message the audience wanted to hear in the first place.

ttosca Sat 20-Oct-12 21:30:52

It would be strange if you were glad that they booed Miliband, Cogito, when he said a Labour govt would also have to make cuts. Would you rather he lied? I thought you were in agreement with austerity measures, or have I got that wrong?

You probably know this, but:

Cogito is in agreement with the austerity measures which are harming the economy and killing jobs.

He mentioned Milliband being booed because he's very much a supporter of Team Conservative and spends a lot of time on these boards defending the Tory scum and attacking Labour. It's all about partisanship.

Solopower1 Sat 20-Oct-12 18:34:58

It would be strange if you were glad that they booed Miliband, Cogito, when he said a Labour govt would also have to make cuts. Would you rather he lied? I thought you were in agreement with austerity measures, or have I got that wrong?

Solopower1 Sat 20-Oct-12 17:59:50

If you mean we just have to accept the status quo, Niceguy - no we don't. How very defeatist of you.

Is that a gloat, Cogito?

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