The name of Jesus used in vain .....

(78 Posts)
jaabaar Tue 17-Dec-13 20:24:33

I am a catholic and try not to use the name of God and Jesus in vain.

My 4year old DD has started saying "Jesus" when she gets annoyed with something. When I asked her where did she he hear and learn this she told the name of a practitioner at nursery.

Am I being unreasonable to be upset about this?
Everything has to be so politically correct however in front of children in a school setting I didn't expect this kind of language.

Please put me into place if I'm over the top. I'm not going to complain to nursery or anything, just being annoyed about it.

I don't think you're being OTT, In face the opposite. That is offensive and it is recognised as offensive, even in our secularised culture. I would consider raising it personally, I'd be horrified if my children repeated that (we are a Christian family)

Abra1d Tue 17-Dec-13 20:32:01

It can be offensive. If you are sensitive about this kind of thing, you will need to watch out on MN, where threads starting Jesus F..k..g etc are not uncommon--and will not be removed because they don't delete for blasphemy. (Except they probably would, if it were a non-Christian deity.)

headinhands Tue 17-Dec-13 20:51:56

I'm an atheist who works in education and would never say Jesus or anything even slightly offensive in front of the children. I've never heard any of the other staff say anything slightly offensive either.

Wolfiefan Tue 17-Dec-13 20:54:38

I might not explain but I would tell nursery she has said it at home, explain why you don't want her to say it and ask them to remind her not to say it if she does. (And I'd be sure to say all this to the person who taught it to her!!)

EdithWeston Tue 17-Dec-13 20:57:25

There are many who find it offensive (together with 'OMG'), and I think it has no place in a diverse society.

jaabaar Tue 17-Dec-13 21:09:12

I do understand that people say OMG, Jesus etc. however what upsets me is that it is said in a school setting in front of my daughter.

I'm also not offended if it is used on mumsnet etc, but really I do not want it said in an educational environment where you are placed as a teacher, rolemodel.

Wolfiefan: that is a very good and peaceful idea! I will do that.

Thank you for all your comments!

I think finding a name offensive is OTT. It's only a name.

I used to get hit for saying Jesus Christ as a child.

Which was worse,me saying it or my catholic parent hitting me for it? hmm

sonlypuppyfat Tue 17-Dec-13 21:18:07

I absolutely hate it. My mum always says it I say you know how much it offends me. But she thinks I'm just being silly.

headinhands Tue 17-Dec-13 22:10:12

That's the distinction isn't it op, you think your dd heard it from a member of staff at nursery. That does surprise me as there is such a drive to use words that are 'kind'. I think a chat would be wise. It may be that dd heard it from a child, small children always repeat their parents.

headinhands Wed 18-Dec-13 06:17:07

But obviously hitting anyone for saying any words is vile.

headinhands Wed 18-Dec-13 06:17:56

Sorry. Hadn't read your post Annie.

octopusinasantasack Wed 18-Dec-13 06:22:18

YANBU. I would never talk like that in front of children. It's just not cricket.

letzygonsbezyons Wed 18-Dec-13 18:32:29

It can be offensive. If you are sensitive about this kind of thing, you will need to watch out on MN, where threads starting Jesus F..k..g etc are not uncommon--and will not be removed because they don't delete for blasphemy. (Except they probably would, if it were a non-Christian deity.)

exactly. and my DC has tourettesand autism and Id rather she said the 'f' word than the blasphemy she uses.

I find it extremely offensive. Bunny would you feel the same if someone was using your/your DH/DCs name as a swear word? (genuine question)

Gingerdodger Wed 18-Dec-13 18:45:27

I personally don't like hearing it and wouldn't say it but I appreciate that, as a practising Christian, that's not a universal view and so I tend to just shut my ears to adults who do it.

I would be very upset though if someone was saying it in front of my children as I would not accept it in my home and I would be speaking to the nursery about it if I were in your position.

Abra1d Wed 18-Dec-13 23:11:10

It is not the name that is offensive.

headinhands Thu 19-Dec-13 07:04:59

except the probably would if it were a non Christian deity

But we don't use Allah or Odin as an exclamation as neither are culturally enmeshed. Neither would MN delete a reasonable criticism on ANY religion.

Snog Thu 19-Dec-13 07:10:30

this wouldnt bother me as I am not religious. I suspect the majority of folk wouldn't be fussed as practicing Christians are a minority. However I wouldn't expect nursery staff to say this.

Abra1d Thu 19-Dec-13 16:19:32

I don't think 'Jesus Fuck...g Christ' is culturally enmeshed either!

Abra1d, clearly it is since you recognise it readily. That's not the same as saying it's supposed to be, but it worked out that way. No one in this country is going to say "For Odin's sake" if they hit their finger with a hammer.

TheArticFunky Thu 19-Dec-13 16:42:19

I do it all the time and I'm Catholic. I try not to but it just slips out. I have told ds1 off for doing it because it does sound awful coming out of the mouth of children. It's no surprise where he gets it from. hmm

I'm not offended when I hear it. I am offended when I hear people use the F or C word in public.

I've just been thinking about the various religion related words and phrases that people use. 'damn', 'god damn you/it' and all those using the name/title like 'for christ's sake' etc and of course they have lost their original meaning, but they would have been phrases used by Christians back when 'Damn you' would have been a nasty thing to say to someone.

So that's where we picked it up.

Abra1d Fri 20-Dec-13 10:52:29

Just because I recognise something doesn't meant it's culturally enmeshed, whatever that means. It certainly isn't (that particular and similar phrase I quoted) among any people I know personally. I only ever 'hear' that kind of thing on MN. I recognise that some people think all kinds of things are acceptable but that doesn't mean that they are part of the cultural landscape.

DingDongUriGelleryOnHigh Fri 20-Dec-13 10:57:18

It doesn't mean anything to me because I'm not a Christian. I have words I hate to hear children use, like "stupid" and "idiot" as well as swear words.

But I would be annoyed at someone employed in a childcare capacity venting their frustration so audibly.

I'd want to have a word about the staffs management of their negative emotions in front of small children.

Well culturally enmeshed wasn't my phrase, but the point about using jesus not odin or allah is because christianity and its terms have seeped through to everyone.

Christians introduced all those terms including the ones meant to be threatening/insulting. The F'**** was added later of course.

You''re not over the top to find something personal to you offensive.

But other people may not have the same sensibilities. Such expletives, and their variations, are enmeshed in the English language and are often used colloquially.

OMG is an interesting one, as the G is not specific. Some pagans say "oh my Gods" or "oh my Goddess", which always sounds a bit forced and pretentious.

BettyBotter Fri 20-Dec-13 11:25:42

Hi Jaabaar I'm a staunch atheist and previously a primary teacher. I was all ready to tell you that you were being oversensitive and I think you're quite right. It is not good modelling of language by the teacher to the dcs.

The point is, whatever your or anybody else's beliefs, that that kind of language can offend some people. Therefore it shouldn't be used with dcs etc. They are not old enough to be socially/ culturally sensitive about where or when blasphemy will be offensive or not, so better not to use at all.

And the nursery teacher should know better fgs. wink

ErrolTheDragon Fri 20-Dec-13 11:42:58

>Christians introduced all those terms including the ones meant to be threatening/insulting.
yes - apparently in Muslim countries 'allah' does get similarly used. Its really not 'Christian bashing' - just to do with our cultural background that people here say 'Jesus'.

But OP, you're absolutely right that a nursery worker should try to avoid using any language which can be classified as swearing in front of a small child. Ideally not even scatological ones ... which I'd have thought would be what most children would pick up. Perhaps as a pragmatic measure you could try to get your DD to say 'oh poo' or suchlike - something naughty but not really offensive.

NoComet Fri 20-Dec-13 11:52:56

I'm an total atheist, but I was always brought up that it wasn't nice.

I have a lovely older Christian DF who really doesn't like it.

OMG as a TV program title really made me see red. You wouldn't see any over deity treated that casually, but it's OK for White British teens to be disrespectful to their cult all background.

It just adds to a general nasty atmosphere in which swearing, not being respectful and low level bullying are ok.

NoComet Fri 20-Dec-13 11:54:06

Cultural (I wish iPods didn't split words).

crescentmoon Fri 20-Dec-13 11:59:27

I heard someone say 'oh my Darwin' the other day as his young son fell over in the school playground. He was standing close by so I heard it pretty clearly. Has anyone else heard it I wonder how long its been around? Does anyone else catch the line dr cockroach PhD say in the movie 'monsters versus aliens' when he exclaims 'by Hawkings chair!' I think in the scene when he beholds the spaceship? I think it was to express awe. I guess they're just the secular versions of 'oh my god' or 'by God'?

ErrolTheDragon Fri 20-Dec-13 12:13:22

grin Cute.... the difference is those are humorous rather than offensive because no-one actually worships Darwin or Hawking (or, as I expect someone somewhere has or will utter it, Richard ^&** Dawkins)

Crescent, would you mind me asking - I wondered about 'OMG as a TV program title really made me see red. You wouldn't see any other deity treated that casually' - I thought, but 'god' doesn't refer to any specific deity so wouldn't it be equally offensive to any (mono)theist?

crescentmoon Fri 20-Dec-13 12:58:56

probably yes to that 'Richard **€$%#¥ Dawkins' hehe.
Different things are regarded as blasphemous in various religious traditions. We don't really have 'do not use the Lord's name in vain'. 'Allah' is used to express exasperation and frustration amongst arabic speakers without batting an eyelid just as 'Christ' is used amongst English speakers (remember fentonnnn!!!! ). But I also find the Jesus ..... Christ titles offensive, its not just Christians who would.

ErrolTheDragon Fri 20-Dec-13 13:11:11

Thanks ... interesting. I suppose pedantically the commandment to not take the Lord's name in vain applies to 'Yawheh' rather than Jesus but to any Trinitarian that'd probably be nitpicking ... many Christians are offended not so much because of the commandment as for using the name of someone they love as an epithet.

crescentmoon Fri 20-Dec-13 13:49:59

Yes whereas we use Allah as an epithet all the time- actually its considered better to call on God than to use a swear word. Using The Name by itself eg if youve missed your train or dropped a glass on your foot - could be considered a prayer by itself. But yes to trinitarians God/Jesus are used interchangeably so its clear why it would be offensive. I hope Christians don't think when Jesus is being denigrated that Muslims enjoy that - its hurtful to us too. But we already have a reputation for being quick to take offence.

Abra1d Fri 20-Dec-13 13:53:53

That is very interesting,*crescentmoon*. Thank you for explaining that. smile

msmiggins Fri 20-Dec-13 16:03:06

TB I don't really care. Christians have little respect for us athiests anyway, telling us that we will be sent into eternal flaming damnation as sinners. No more courteous than the odd OMG.

ErrolTheDragon Fri 20-Dec-13 16:09:13

MrsM - very few Christians actually do that, you know, most of them nowadays don't really believe in flaming damnation. And two wrongs don't make a right under any system of ethics!

msmiggins Fri 20-Dec-13 16:11:07

But that's the whole premise of christianity Errol-accepting jesus will give you a good seat in the afterlife. Otherwise you're down in the pit.
Are you saying everyone goes to heaven?

ErrolTheDragon Fri 20-Dec-13 16:16:38

MrsM - no... I think most nice Christians fudge it and think that nonbelievers get oblivion (what atheists are expecting anyway) or 'separation from god' or even a ticket in if they've been good enough anyway. Religious belief doesn't have to be self-consistent you know, and most people aren't nasty enough to believe god toasts his children.

Sorry, wandering a bit OT here!

msmiggins Fri 20-Dec-13 16:20:23

I disagree- fear is a powerful controlling force in the church.

While it's true that many have moved on to New Christianity, phrases like "Damn you" are reminders that they used to condemn non-believers 'to suffer eternal punishment in hell'.

And of course there are still plenty today who curse us for not being in their church or denomination (or for not setting up a direct debit to pay them)

PedroYoniLikesCrisps Sat 21-Dec-13 18:22:52

Christ, if we went around not saying anything which might potentially offend some minority or individual for reasons completely incomprehensible to us, we'd hardly speak. Language is a wonderful, colourful thing. How you use the words are far more important than the words themselves. If I shouted at someone that they were a bastard for getting in my way that's clearly aggressive, but use the same word to describe an illegitimate child and it's perfectly acceptable.

Now I can't possibly comment on how Jesus was actually used in this instance as I wasn't there. But I sincerely doubt that the individual concerned was personally attacking your deity. Some people really just need to lighten up and not get so wound up about such trivial matters.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps Sat 21-Dec-13 18:24:02

Christ, if we went around not saying anything which might potentially offend some minority or individual for reasons completely incomprehensible to us, we'd hardly speak. Language is a wonderful, colourful thing. How you use the words are far more important than the words themselves. If I shouted at someone that they were a bastard for getting in my way that's clearly aggressive, but use the same word to describe an illegitimate child and it's perfectly acceptable.

Now I can't possibly comment on how Jesus was actually used in this instance as I wasn't there. But I sincerely doubt that the individual concerned was personally attacking your deity. Some people really just need to lighten up and not get so wound up about such trivial matters.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps Sat 21-Dec-13 18:24:02

Christ, if we went around not saying anything which might potentially offend some minority or individual for reasons completely incomprehensible to us, we'd hardly speak. Language is a wonderful, colourful thing. How you use the words are far more important than the words themselves. If I shouted at someone that they were a bastard for getting in my way that's clearly aggressive, but use the same word to describe an illegitimate child and it's perfectly acceptable.

Now I can't possibly comment on how Jesus was actually used in this instance as I wasn't there. But I sincerely doubt that the individual concerned was personally attacking your deity. Some people really just need to lighten up and not get so wound up about such trivial matters.

ErrolTheDragon Sat 21-Dec-13 18:37:34

>If I shouted at someone that they were a bastard for getting in my way that's clearly aggressive, but use the same word to describe an illegitimate child and it's perfectly acceptable.

Poor choice... I find the first usage much less horrible than the second hmm

PedroYoniLikesCrisps Sat 21-Dec-13 18:47:11

Poor choice... I find the first usage much less horrible than the second

The first is abusive and the second is factual. The reason you don't like the factual one is because the word has been used as a term of abuse elsewhere. Precisely proves my point. It's a perfectly acceptable word to describe what it was originally created to describe.

ErrolTheDragon Sat 21-Dec-13 18:59:17

>It's a perfectly acceptable word to describe what it was originally created to describe.

It really isn't, you know, not in the 21st century. 'Bastard' has always been a term which denigrated a child for the perceived 'sins' of its parents.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps Sat 21-Dec-13 19:12:37

It's a word. It has a handful of definitions. One of which is:
a person born of parents not married to each other.

Regardless of your personal opinion on that particular word, it's a common occurrence that just because certain specific words have been re-purposed we are suddenly expected not to be able to use them properly. It's madness.

ErrolTheDragon Sat 21-Dec-13 19:21:07

>it's a common occurrence that just because certain specific words have been re-purposed we are suddenly expected not to be able to use them properly. It's madness.

I'm not sure it's that common for words not to be allowable in their correct context. But you are correct that some words are offensive in some contexts and not in others - 'bitch' applied to a woman versus a female dog for example.

jaabaar Sun 22-Dec-13 05:09:20

My original post was not about what words one can use in everyday life.

My point is that I do not find certain words acceptable in a nursery or school.

One of them is Jesus and also the "nonreligious" words like fuck, idiot, bastard etc

I believe that every single poster on this thread can agree to that.

In everyday life I like to believe I treat people with respect. So if I encounter somone who would be offended by the word "apple" I would make sure I dont say it in their presence. It wouldnt be for the reason of having to comply to a minority but simply for not making somone miserable with a tiny thing I can easily change.

jaabaar Sun 22-Dec-13 05:11:14

My original post was not about what words one can use in everyday life.

My point is that I do not find certain words acceptable in a nursery or school.

One of them is Jesus and also the "nonreligious" words like fuck, idiot, bastard etc

I believe that every single poster on this thread can agree to that.

In everyday life I like to believe I treat people with respect. So if I encounter somone who would be offended by the word "apple" I would make sure I dont say it in their presence. It wouldnt be for the reason of having to comply to a minority but simply for not making somone miserable with a tiny thing I can easily change.

5HundredUsernamesLater Sun 22-Dec-13 05:42:01

I wonder if the member of staff at the nursery uses this word regularly or as a one off. It would be easy for anyone to make a mistake and let slip a word like that as a one off in certain circumstances, eg if you had just trapped your finger or something similar. It doesn't make it right but more forgivable.
I would hope that if that is not the case and a member of staff is using words like this regularly it would have been noticed by other staff and the manager of the nursery and have already have been dealt with.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps Sun 22-Dec-13 17:41:12

If someone found apple offensive I really wouldn't be worrying myself about not using it around them. But then again I wouldn't expect a teacher to use the word apple as a profanity.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 23-Dec-13 17:39:50

>I believe that every single poster on this thread can agree to that.
I'd have thought so. It doesn't really sound from what the OP described as though her DD had picked it up from a single accidental occurrence.

specialsubject Mon 23-Dec-13 18:23:08

your job to teach your child what words can be used and when, and that she mustn't repeat everything she hears.

this is only the beginning.

In case I didn't say, of course the staff shouldn't be swearing at all, but it would be amazing if a child didn't hear these things from other parents and kids. It's not as though you can prevent them ever knowing the words.

As for normal words that mean something bad to a minority it rather depends on the circumstances. If I knew one person who'd had a bad accident involving a sewing machine then I wouldn't mention sewing in front of them at all. In other words the actual word doesn't matter. I just don't want them to feel bad.

On the other hand if the local Creationist Society told me not to use the word evolution then I'd tell them to get stuffed.

Saying 'jesus' or 'damn' or whatever when you hit your thumb with a hammer is somewhere in between. Given how much the church insists on our Christian heritage and that the taxpayers have to help support Christianity I have to say they are our words as much as theirs and I'll use them when it suits me.

Housemum Sat 28-Dec-13 13:49:11

I personally don't use Jesus or God in swearing terms, I do think it shouldn't be used by teachers (particularly preschool age) but in the same way that they shouldn't say "damn" or any other mild expletive as it is encouraging swearing in its mildest form (mind you, perhaps that's because I remember being sent to spend break with the teacher at infants for saying "drat" because I copied Dick Dastardly from the cartoons!)

OMG in our house is "oh my goodness" so I don't take offence at it being used in magazines/on TV because I choose to use the alternative version.

alemci Sat 28-Dec-13 23:02:19

I don't like it either or the dreaded Omg which has crept in.

bringoutthepringles Mon 30-Dec-13 00:21:45

I would be upset too, to hear my young child using blasphemous language (or any bad language), especially if it was picked up from nursery.

atthestrokeoftwelve Mon 30-Dec-13 08:35:06

I don't mind although children are pretty quick to cotton on to words that they can use at home but not at school. Words like poo or bum or god that we use at home but not acceptable at school.
I don't have any reverence towards religion, so I use jesus or god as mild swear words.
No big deal to me.

bringoutthepringles Mon 30-Dec-13 11:46:27

What about showing some respect towards
people's religious beliefs? You might consider them mild swear words, but to a Christian they are anything but.

atthestrokeoftwelve Mon 30-Dec-13 12:10:34

I don't have any respect for religion.

bringoutthepringles Mon 30-Dec-13 13:39:58

That is your choice atthestrokeoftwelve but I am very glad to be living in a country founded on Christian values, which on the whole is respectful towards those with different religious beliefs (unlike North Korea, China, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, Iran, to name but a few)
.

In 1939 54% of Germans considered themselves Protestant, (including non-denominational Christians) and 40% considered themselves Catholic, with only 3.5% claiming to be neo-pagan "believers in God," and 1.5% atheists. Even Hitler was raised a Catholic.

So that was intolerant christians that time.

atthestrokeoftwelve Mon 30-Dec-13 15:15:42

If you mean the christian values that promote homophobia, intolerance and misogyny?

alemci Mon 30-Dec-13 15:38:22

to be fair Back only Briefly, the church did speak out against Hitler and many people were imprisoned. If we lived in fear for our lives, would we have spoke out against Hitler. I think people turned a blind eye as it was dangerous, there was no middle ground and you could disappear in the night. You had no rights.

I only mention it because when people bring up North Korea, China, Hitler and Stalin they are generally saying "it wouldn't have happened if they were Christian". Generally atheists get the blame somehow. No one says "I bet the atheists there were kind, but couldn't do anything about it".

Germany was Christian. Whatever it is about Christianity that's supposed to make the world a better place made no difference whatsoever.

alemci Mon 30-Dec-13 16:13:59

Yes, I do see your point Briefly. Human nature is the way it is. However you did have people like Bonhoeffer a christian who did speak out against the atrocities and was executed. You had Corrie Ten Boon and her father in Holland who hid jews in the war, there was also a priest who sacrificed his life so that a Jewish man could live but not sure of his name.

I know that is only 3 people but still food for thought.

bringoutthepringles Mon 30-Dec-13 20:11:44

I am sorry that you have such a low opinion of Christianity. Unfortunately, even genuine Christians make mistakes and get it wrong and there are others who call themselves Christians but are anything but. Please don't form your views on Christianity based on their mistakes (and the actings of those who pretend to be Christians). Jesus did and has brought light to the world. As for homophobia, intolerance and misogyny, have a look at the passages where the woman is about to be stoned for adultery and the one where Jesus meets the woman by the well.
True Alemci, it is easy for us to say that the German Christians should have done this and that but what would we have done had it been us, where not only we but our loved ones would have been at risk? We don't hear enough about the amazing brave people who spoke out and helped the Jews.

atthestrokeoftwelve Mon 30-Dec-13 20:22:35

Sexism underpins the christian faith- the bible is littered with the ideology that men are superior to women:

Timothy 2:12, : "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."

Ephesians 5:22, "Wives, submit to you husbands as to the Lord";

Corinthians 14:34 - 35*
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

1 Corinthians 11:9 - Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Romans 1:27, "In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error."

Yes I have a very low opinion of christianity.

bringoutthepringles my point was that you offered Hitler's germany as an example of a non-christian country you'd hate to be in. In fact it was a country almost entirely Christian. A greater proportion than the UK right now. So being a Christian country doesn't mean that it's a nice country at all. It doesn't mean the people will be decent and tolerant. In fact given the numbers of Christians there it would seem that the people committing the atrocities must have been Christian too.

bringoutthepringles Tue 31-Dec-13 01:02:57

Just because people call themselves Christian does not mean that they are Christian. I can't think of any atheist countries where I would like to live.

On Ephesians "Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing of water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless"-Ephesians 5v 25-27
Men and women are equal, but equality does not rule out having complementary rules or one person taking the lead. In practice, submission and love mean the wife puts the husband's will before her own and the husband puts the wife's interests before his own. Men should not exercise their taking the lead in a self-serving way but one that is loving and sacrificial.
Submission does not mean agreeing with everything your Husband says or acting out of fear as the wife must put Jesus first.

And turning it round, do all atheist men treat their women with love and respect?? Are they all nice to homosexuals?? The Bible says that homosexuallity is wrong but it also says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

atthestrokeoftwelve Tue 31-Dec-13 09:59:14

pringles- this cherry picking of the bible is ridiculous.

I also question your idea of an "athiest country"- what does that mean exactly?
Give me some examples.

Athiesm is not a uniting force- athiests are not united ny disbelief as christians are.

Only 6% of people in the UK attend chuch regularly. UK sounds like a pretty good starting point if you are looking for one of those "athiest" countries you wouldn't like to live in.

bringoutthepringles Tue 31-Dec-13 11:52:46

Atthestrokeoftwelve, you are the one cherrypicking. Suggest that you read the whole of the New Testament

Atheist countries include North Korea and China. If you look at the pages for Release International and Christian Solidarity Worldwide, you will see just how intolerant these countries (and countries of some other religious persuasions) are. Whatever you might think, the UK is still a Christian country and I am glad to live here.

I guess you have a low opinion of Nelson Mandela, as he was a Christian?

1919 Tue 31-Dec-13 12:02:32

"I guess you have a low opinion of Nelson Mandela , as he was a Christian?"

Your logical reasoning is absolutely ridiculous.

atthestrokeoftwelve Tue 31-Dec-13 12:31:39

Countries like North Korea are run by a harsh regime which has neither religion or non religion at it's heart.
To suggest that it is the athiesm which shapes and dominates the regime there is laughable.

I do not have a low opinion of people- again your logic is deeply flawed. I have a low opinion of religion.

PS I have read the whole bible, New and old Testament- which I why I see your God as an egotistical, genicidal, jealous, venegful, infant murdering bigot.

bringoutthepringles you are claiming that all or most of the catholics and protestants in Germany were only pretending to be Christian?

In that case can we equally assume that all the Christians in the UK or for that matter the Vatican are also fake?. If you assure us otherwise then on what basis? Do you have evidence for either claim.

You might want to look up the "No true Scotsman" fallacy btw.

As for 'atheist countries' I'll join with atthestrokeoftwelve in asking you to define that. Atheists are not a group in the way you clearly think. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in your religion. You are atheist in relation to Islam and Paganism and the gods of Asgard I expect.

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