Evidence of Ghosts

(93 Posts)
technodad Sat 26-Oct-13 19:58:25

Apparently I am not welcome to discuss the existance of ghosts on a thread started by someone who believes in them, so I thought I would start my own thread.

Everyone is welcome, you can all insult me as much as you want. I don't care if you try to offend me and my deeply held "beliefs".

So, my question:

Has anyone had a first hand experience of paranormal activity, and got a photo or video that they prove the existance of ghosts. If so, please can you post it (or a link to it on photobox or youtube), because I am intreagued what level of "evidence" people accept. - Please only post you own experience, with evidence, since, as you can imagine, if you say "I heard a noise in my kitchen" you will likely get told it was the fridge motor.

Thread warning - apparently (according to people on other threads), I am a complete bastard, and may say something on this thread that you find more offensive than you possibly can imagine... I may even say the phrase "ghosts don't exist", which may cause you to cry. Please only join in if you can cope with such aggression! wink

WereTricksPotter Sat 26-Oct-13 20:03:35

I believe there may be areas of physics that will explain the experiences some people have of 'ghosts' at some point in the future, with research.

WereTricksPotter Sat 26-Oct-13 20:18:09

<pipes infrasound into thread to revive it>

WereTricksPotter Sat 26-Oct-13 21:28:12

Well, that's a shame.

I think there is room in this Topic for discussion, but it seems I've wandered into an Agenda hmm

technodad Sat 26-Oct-13 21:34:39

I am happy to discuss.

I personally think all the scientific knowledge is already there.

I wasn't intending to ignore you, I was just waiting to see if anyone else joined in.

No agenda.

CoteDAzur Sat 26-Oct-13 21:36:50

" I may even say the phrase "ghosts don't exist", which may cause you to cry. Please only join in if you can cope with such aggression!"

grin

WereTricksPotter Sat 26-Oct-13 21:43:26

I'd disagree with that, techno.

You bring forward someone from the 1500s and show them electricity in action. That's where I think we're up to with investigating things paranormal.

technodad Sat 26-Oct-13 21:47:32

I think it is more "normal" than "paranormal" and it is all either in out heads, or real life stuff that we misinterpret.

Hopefully, someone has some solid evidence for the thread.

There was talk of photos with figures in the background and videos with floating orbs in the last thread.

DearDinah Sat 26-Oct-13 21:52:48

I had a spooky photo once of a funny place name in Cornwall, we took a photo of it in the dark & when it came out there was a horrible distorted figure standing behind it, I thought it was a ghost for ages, until it dawned on me that it was actually me, I was horribly drunk & forgot I got into the picture.

WereTricksPotter Sat 26-Oct-13 21:55:14

I've got a photo of a spooky cot somewhere.

technodad Sat 26-Oct-13 21:58:32

I went onto youtube to find a discussion point to get things moving.

So, here is a video with an "orb" that some idiot has posted on youtube, which is claimed as a ghost in the back yard youtu.be/LfP4ypwJNVA

This is very very obviously a small bug (thunder bug or small ant), walking around on the inside of the lens, or on the CCD of the video camera. You can tell by the characteristics of the movements, and sometimes even make out the blurred scurrying legs.

Or this one: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTl6Ml6vMWE where they are all dust reflecting the light of a flash, or film processing problems (I love the comentry though!).

technodad Sat 26-Oct-13 21:59:12

DearDinah - Brilliant! I love it!

WereTricksPotter Sat 26-Oct-13 22:04:29

You are right, techno.

There is no evidence caught on film that proves the existence of ghosts.

Evidence must be found with research in the field, as it were, because it can't be proved via audiovisual means at this point in time.

Azquilith Sat 26-Oct-13 22:06:47

Love DearDinah!

Moxiegirl Sat 26-Oct-13 22:09:13

No argument from me, they don't exist!

technodad Sat 26-Oct-13 22:10:04

WereTricksPotter

What evidence are you talking of, and how is it recorded that enables it to be challenged using the scientific method?

WereTricksPotter Sat 26-Oct-13 22:19:29

You'd need to make sure that the photo/video evidence was genuine i.e investigating every last pixel

It would need to be available to every method of investigation and able to be stripped back to its component parts.

Evidence is a 'machine' in this respect. You have to be able to take it apart and put it back together again.

Shallishanti Sat 26-Oct-13 23:06:53

maybe we should define what is meant by 'ghosts'?
I can easily accept there may be things as yet unexplained by science - but I've never been convinced by any of the 'unexplained happenings' people who believe in ghosts cite. Seen too much Derren Brown.

sunbathe Sat 26-Oct-13 23:14:27

So, if there are no ghosts, are you assuming that everyone's lying when they say they've seen a ghost? Or misinterpreting something?

WereTricksPotter Sat 26-Oct-13 23:15:57

Misinterpreting something.

Shallishanti Sat 26-Oct-13 23:27:20

yes, misinterpreting something (generous) or winding up other people/lying- in either case, 'ghosts' is a category suggested by our culture.

technodad Sun 27-Oct-13 07:16:00

WereTricksPotter said

"You'd need to make sure that the photo/video evidence was genuine i.e investigating every last pixel

It would need to be available to every method of investigation and able to be stripped back to its component parts.

Evidence is a 'machine' in this respect. You have to be able to take it apart and put it back together again."

I think (although I am not sure), you believe that some "paranormal events" do actually occur, but they are not ghosts and that we can explain them when science catches up. Have I interpreted this correctly?

If so, can you define the sort of "event" you are referring to, and like I say, suggest some way of measuring the event?

Thanks

WereTricksPotter Sun 27-Oct-13 08:37:55

A typical 'ghost' sighting, for instance.
If I saw a figure in the cellar of a building and it seemed to be standing lower down than the present day floor then I believe that could be some manifestation of Time and physics anomaly leading me to see a figure from the past.

Or poltergeist activity. Just because we don't yet know where the physical force comes from doesn't mean there isn't an explanation as yet undiscovered by science.

I don't mind being shot down in flames for saying this btw! DH and I have some fantastic heated debates about this sort of stuff thlgrin

I both do and don't believe in paranormal activity btw. Some individual accounts can't be put down to attention seeking, or mental health issues.

MrPricklepants Sun 27-Oct-13 08:42:20

I thought I saw a ghost once next to my bedroom door, it turned out to be my dressing gown.

OP no one will post with 'evidence' because ghosts don't exist. Any sightings of ghosts can usually be easily explained and if not it's our weird brains playing tricks on us.

MrPricklepants Sun 27-Oct-13 08:44:11

And as a physicist can I also say I don't believe in 'time physics' anomalies where you think you're seeing a glimpse of the past or the future. It's your brain, an amazing organ that plays tricks on us all the time.

MrPricklepants Sun 27-Oct-13 08:46:17

Actually instead of 'I don't believ' as a physicist I should also say 'there is no evidence of'.

RatHammock Sun 27-Oct-13 08:48:33

Ghosts don't exist. If anyone ever provides concrete evidence to the contrary obviously I will alter my opinion.

However I think that arguing with people who are willing to believe in anything with no evidence, be that ghosts, gods, vampires, etc. is pretty pointless. If somebody is taking a faith based perspective then that is irrational, and one cannot meet irrationality with rational debate.

WereTricksPotter Sun 27-Oct-13 08:49:40

But a caveman wouldn't understand a television or cinema screen. They wouldn't understand how those 'people' got there.

Our understanding of the world wrt paranormal activity could be at that level as we don't know all there is to know about what makes it all fit together.

technodad Sun 27-Oct-13 09:00:04

"time physics"

I have never heard that term before. It is like someone has taken two scientific words, and added them together to make a special kind of made-up nonesense.

WereTricksPotter: Is there any chance that the things you saw are a figment of your imagination? The brain has evolved to make patterns from very limited information. This trait has been born our of natural selection, whereby if you think you see a shape in the long grass, your brain thinks "ITS A TIGER" and you run. The animals which didn't imagine a tiger were often eaten (by the tiger), but the animals that ran survived (albeit they may have done more running than they needed to do). Similarly, the family groups that told scary stories about dark caves and monsters, didn't get eaten by the bear in the cave, but those that weren't scared of the unknown got scoffed.

In low light, or unusual conditions, your brain will often make-up the remainder of the information to create a familiar image out of small amounts of data. This is compounded by strange noises, or unexpected temperatures.

I once remember seeing three lights, that looked exactly like a tripple rocket engine that you might see in a sic-fi movie, travelling through the sky at seemingly high speed. It was so hard to not believe what my brain was telling me, and a bit of me believed it was a UFO. I kept watching it, telling myself there was a logical explanation, until I realised it was three chinese lanterns travelling quite close to me, so they looked orange, and like they were further away but travelling fast.

One example of how the brain overrides what you see, is the mcgurk effect: youtu.be/G-lN8vWm3m0

WereTricksPotter Sun 27-Oct-13 09:05:31

Yes, there's every chance that both times I am sure I saw something supernatural it was my brain making patterns.
There was also a physical manifestation once, after a ghost tour type event, which was incredibly interesting as the ghosts we went to experience don't actually exist, so my brain must have caused the scratches on my leg.

I'll always go through the possible explanations for ghost sightings and I know how to bust the Woo surrounding paranormal events.

However, I still believe that some sightings are down to things we can't yet explain, but belong to a branch of science that is neglected and derided as yet.

technodad Sun 27-Oct-13 09:15:34

There was also a physical manifestation once, after a ghost tour type event, which was incredibly interesting as the ghosts we went to experience don't actually exist, so my brain must have caused the scratches on my leg.

It is completely resonable for you to have scratched yourself during the ghost tour (on a wall, bush, or even unintintionally with your own hand, etc.), and not realise it. If you are scared, and have adrenalin in your blood system, you often don't notice pain until well after the event, and don't even remember how the injury happened.

There are far worse injuries than this recorded, such as policemen driving cars with broken wrists (having been run over by the criminal), and not even realising they had been hurt until after the criminal has been arrested and the adrenalin has subsided.

It it possible that this might have happened in this instance?

Do you not think this is far more likely than a supernatural explanation?

Abitannoyedatthis Sun 27-Oct-13 09:19:05

Well I have a science degree and have seen a ghost. I was in my twenties, hot morning in August, saw a guy walking slowly as if in pain dressed in a heavy coat and as I moved towards him he vanished. Saw it for about 40 seconds. My impression at the time was that it was some sort of tape recording. Possibly a hallucination of mine (though none before or since) or some unknown phenomena.

I don't believe the spirits of the dead come back or that we exist after death. Do I believe in ghosts? Yes.

WereTricksPotter Sun 27-Oct-13 09:19:46

I was wearing knee high boots, not drunk and can honestly say I didn't scratch myself while I was awake - the scratches came up overnight.

I agree that it was a physical manifestation of a manufactured fear in some way. The 'ghost' in question is known for physical attacks and my brain must have played along with that in some way, which is fascinating!

WereTricksPotter Sun 27-Oct-13 09:24:40

I believe in the Stone Tape theory, Abit. Ghosts as recordings held by building materials etc.

technodad Sun 27-Oct-13 09:28:14

I didn't say you were drunk :-)

Could you have scratched yourself in your sleep? I do that all the time.

WereTricksPotter Sun 27-Oct-13 09:53:06

No, I know you didn't. I was removing the possibility of inebriation from the evidence I was presenting.

I could have scratched myself in my sleep, but I've never done that before or since that has left a mark like something with claws/nails has taken a swipe at me.

I've had a few strange experiences which I can't attribute to rational causes - or rather, one I can, but like WereTricks the explanation doesn't tie with anything that has happened before or since.

I was visiting a park which has a long social history. Buildings on site have been converted to different uses, some public, but the area was bombed during WW2. One of my friends claims to have seen figures there, I have not. I was standing outside, basically saying that she must have been seeing things when I experienced what I can only describe as a clip around the ear.
I was not under a tree, nor moving, so can't claim anything dropping or being moved into proximity. The rational explanation is that it was some sort of bodily spasm that felt like a clip around the ear, but I have never since felt anything like it.

I'm firmly in the "can't prove, can't disprove" camp. Simply because things we take for granted nowadays are things that were considered impossible in the not-too-distant past.

WereTricksPotter Sun 27-Oct-13 10:07:13

I have to go and do something else besides annoying rationalists now thlwink, but I'd like to compare ghost sightings to being struck by lightning first.

If I was standing in a field in a thunderstorm and I was knocked off my feet by a powerful force, leaving a scorchmark on my body then someone I described this to afterwards would tell me I had been hit by lightning. A well documented natural phenomenon that it's possible to replicate under lab conditions.

If I describe driving along a country lane at night and an old man with an angry expression steps out in front of the car yet there is no collision with a physical entity then it's a trick of the light, or the mind, according to science.

It shouldn't be dismissed as just my imagination imo, as the explanation behind it may be as rational as the one about the lightning strike one day, when science has caught up with paranormal manifestations.

technodad Mon 28-Oct-13 11:49:49

Weretrickspotter

Do you honestly believe that your scratch on your leg is far more likely to be caused by a ghost, than you scratching yourself in your sleep.

On the face of it, this sounds pretty odd to me!

I'd say that paranormal is a meaningless term. Even if ghosts existed they'd be part of the universe we live in so would be 'natural'. As a shortcut for 'things we can't explain yet' it is ok, but too many people take it to mean 'things outside of science'.

If you see something then it has to affect the cones and rods of your eyes so it would be visible to cameras/recorders that record the same wavelengths. If you are touched by something it must exist in the 'real' world to affect your skin and nerves.

If by seeing we mean images implanted in the subject's brain directly then camera's would never record them, but they still must have a real world presence to affect the brain.

This applies to god too. God is detectable unless he went far away and never did anything or contacted anyone.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 02-Nov-13 13:13:19

Someone called you a "complete bastard" Techno?shock That is not on.angry Did you report it?

headinhands Sat 02-Nov-13 15:05:47

When you say you wouldn't want to disregard ghosts out of hand because there might be a time when science catches up with paranormal are we really to believe that you don't disregard any sightings that anyone has, or ever has had, of any paranormal thing/creature? Are there no paranormal sightings you'd feel confident in discounting? Vampires? Werewolves? Moth-men? Mermaids? Sasquatch?

gamerchick Sat 02-Nov-13 15:17:46

I offered to show you my orbs but you ignored me.

I would love to hear a rational explanation of it as I'm the first to tell people they have a dirty camera lens when it comes to photos.

I'm amused you've still got a bee in your bonnet about that thread though.. there's no need to get so rattled just because somebody doesn't share your opinion.

HaroldLloyd Sat 02-Nov-13 15:18:40

That's interesting Were, something like stigmata?

HaroldLloyd Sat 02-Nov-13 15:19:54

"I offered to show you my orbs" grin

What thread is this? Sounds interesting.

gamerchick Sat 02-Nov-13 15:21:43

That thread is like something out of the twilight zone... can't make head nor tail of it now grin

technodad Sat 02-Nov-13 19:49:09

I am well up for seeing your orbs

Please include details of type of camera and details of when the photo was taken.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 02-Nov-13 19:51:56

Head, have you ever met anyone claiming to have experienced vampires, werewolves, mermaids, mothmen or saschwatch?

gamerchick Sat 02-Nov-13 20:20:14

It was a phone.. A video and last year and I already asked how to get it off Facebook but you ignored that as well.

headinhands Sat 02-Nov-13 20:22:42

Actually yes!

headinhands Sat 02-Nov-13 20:23:42

Even if I hadn't the net is full of eyewitness statements. Same as I've read on this board here. How can I reject their claims but believe others?

WereTricksPotter Sat 02-Nov-13 20:27:42

More like psychosomatic, Harold.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 02-Nov-13 20:57:36

Wow Head. What were they like and what experience did they claim to have?

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 02-Nov-13 22:05:21

Reading an anonymous posting on the net is completely different to knowing people who claim they saw a ghost. I have not experienced a ghost, but I know perfectly normal, rational, intelligent, skepticalshock people who say they have.

There's a big difference in hearing it from a known, trusted friend and reading a post from an Internet poster called IFuckSatan.

headinhands Sat 02-Nov-13 22:24:49

So you disregard/disbelieve the personal testimonies you read on mumsnet but believe the ones that people you know tell you? Isn't that confirmation bias?

headinhands Sat 02-Nov-13 22:26:15

What process of reasoning do you use to discount the internet accounts?

headinhands Sat 02-Nov-13 22:27:55

You assume everyone on the internet is weird, irrational, stupid and gullible? Don't any of your friends post on the internet?

southeastastra Sat 02-Nov-13 22:30:56

i have always been really interested in the paranormal and buy the fortean times regularly

with regards to ghosts i do think that you are either sensitive to them or you aren't

i would like to be as i have always had a fascination with them but i also take heed with those that say that i should be happy to be oblivious to them

HaroldLloyd Sat 02-Nov-13 22:49:42

I think it's clear what Dione is saying to be fair. I think it's reasonable to be less sceptical about believing something from a trusted friend than ifucksatan.

Is that username available I wonder?

headinhands Sat 02-Nov-13 23:07:55

Ah but ifucksatan is a good friend of mine. Why, only last week he helped me re-felt my garage roof. Conversely I read about one of dion's friend's paranormal experiences on iseedeadpeople.com last night and I reckon they're well gullible etc etc. see the problem?

headinhands Sat 02-Nov-13 23:10:34

The point is it's irrational to believe the testimony of a friend more than a stranger on the internet just because you've known them for xyz years but we all do it to varying degrees otherwise relationships would be pretty low on the ground.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 02-Nov-13 23:11:44

Head, when a real life friend tells you something do you believe it to be the same as an anonymous Internet poster telling you something?

headinhands Sat 02-Nov-13 23:14:56

It depends what it is. Give me something to work with.

notanyanymore Sat 02-Nov-13 23:28:17

Just wanted to but in and say I really agree with weretrickspotter , centuries ago everyone 'knew' the earth was flat, and they 'knew' the sun rotated round the earth etc, until they gained a better perspective.
I don't believe in ghosts. But I do believe its naive to think that with our current knowledge of 'science' we can deduce there is no such thing as 'ghosts'. 'Science' has only relatively recently replaced 'religion' as basis for our belief system. Its still in its infancy and there is a lot more to be discovered. To discount anything we can not yet 'prove', or somehow equate with our old debunked belief system, is a very blinkered position to take IMO.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 02-Nov-13 23:28:22

A friend tells you she is broke. She's upset. You have known her for years. She is sensible, rational and logical. She is your friend and you love her and her DC's. She would have been ok, but the car has broken down and she can't afford to get it fixed before payday.

Would you trust her enough to loan her the money?

You read a post outlining the above on the Internet. With the poster offering to pay you back when they get paid.

Would you paypal this poster?

HaroldLloyd Sat 02-Nov-13 23:44:21

I don't think it's irrational, I think it's rational human behaviour.

Isn't it?

Is say its quite reasonable to suppose you trust the word of a lifelong friend than ifucksatan on the net.

HaroldLloyd Sat 02-Nov-13 23:55:20

Caveat: apart from werewolves.

technodad Sun 03-Nov-13 00:20:47

Gamer chick - you said you would PM me and never did!

I am no phone expert, but if you google "transfer iPhone video to youtube" I am sure you will get a good tutorial.

RationalThought Sun 03-Nov-13 00:37:50

I woke one night and felt something scratching my leg. As I opened my eyes I saw a rat standing on me. Obviously there was no rat, but I clearly "saw" it and it took me some time to rationalise the situation.

There were two explanations for what had happened. It was either a ghost, or my brain had somehow created the impression of one. Those with a tendency to believe in ghosts would have accepted the former explanation, I settled for the latter.

I think there are many people who genuinely believe they have seen a ghost, but there are always other explanations. I would be grateful if someone could point me towards some really compelling evidence for the existence of ghosts, not just people's stories.

notanyanymore Sun 03-Nov-13 01:21:43

rationalthought you are right that dream/sleep experiences are your brain trying to make sense of things, this has been demonstrated in examples of somebody saying something in line of sight and out of line of sight, and how your brain syncs what it hears and see's to create an impression on your conscious self (the man in the experiment is saying far, those listening without visual stimuli hear far, those hearing far whilst watching someone say bar 'hear' bar) whilst this proves that the human brain seeks to find the easiest explanation for what our senses are perceiving, it in no way negates the existence of things outside of our current understanding. In fact, it adds weight to the idea that our perceptions and subsequent deductions are heavily influenced by our cultural understandings.

headinhands Sun 03-Nov-13 06:52:19

Morning! Isn't it chilly.

A video that explains irrational behaviour

gamerchick Sun 03-Nov-13 14:02:59

I asked if you wanted to see it and if you did I would send you the link to my Facebook where I would make it public for a short time.

It isn't an iPhone video.. it's in my living room full of people and kids.. along with my kids photos on the wall.

Now why do you think I would want that on YouTube hmm ? Are you in the habit of putting your kids in the public eye on the Internet?

HaroldLloyd Sun 03-Nov-13 14:13:21

Thanks head, interesting read.

technodad Tue 05-Nov-13 07:13:01

Gamer

Don't want you to put a video of your kids on the Internet. I must have missed the post explaining all that.

I suggest that unless you can edit out your family, you don't post it.

gamerchick Tue 05-Nov-13 07:17:55

I've told you what I'm willing to do.. take it or leave it. I'm not putting it on fucking youtube.

headinhands Tue 05-Nov-13 07:40:36

I'm sure the $1,000,000 cheque Mr Randi will hand you after viewing the video will make the hassle worth it

headinhands Tue 05-Nov-13 07:42:14

Sorry, just saw that your kids are in it. Maybe you can get a techie friend to edit them out?

CoteDAzur Tue 05-Nov-13 08:22:53

Gamerchick - I'd love to see your orbs. PM me a link please.

CoteDAzur Tue 05-Nov-13 08:25:18

I forget the faces of most people I meet - no need to worry about your kids being in the video smile

curlew Tue 05-Nov-13 08:29:58

I'd like to see your orbs too. It's very unusual for there to be good pictures or film of such phenomena.

gamerchick Tue 05-Nov-13 08:31:51

I'm not showing it to prove ghosts.. I want to know what it really is. Complete with proof and zen diagrams grin

Tech dad read this carefully as it's the last time I'm going to say it.

The video was taken on a friends phone and uploaded to Facebook. There is no option to save it to a computer... I can't get it off Facebook.

And what would be the point of editing... wouldn't you then just say that it had deliberately been put in? [Hmm]

CoteDAzur Tue 05-Nov-13 08:47:43

I need to get ready to go running in a minute. Will you send a link to the FB page or not?

curlew Tue 05-Nov-13 08:53:55
gamerchick Tue 05-Nov-13 09:22:37

I'm terribly sorry I had to take my child to school. Please forgive me hmm

gamerchick Tue 05-Nov-13 09:25:25

Is there a simple way to send a pm there doesn't seem to be an option in profile?

CoteDAzur Tue 05-Nov-13 11:24:05

Seriously? Well, look at this post. Next to CoteDAzur Tue 05-Nov-13 etc, you will see:

Add message | Report | Message poster

Click on "Message poster". HTH.

gamerchick Tue 05-Nov-13 11:45:22

I have top.. reply... report

Tell you what.. pm me and ill just reply to that. smile

DioneTheDiabolist Tue 05-Nov-13 12:03:22

Head, would you be more likely to believe your friend is in need if she tells you so over an anonymous Internet poster? Or would you believe them both the same? Who if either, would you loan the money to?

curlew Tue 05-Nov-13 12:06:23

If would lend money to a friend before I would lend it to an anonymous person over the internet.

But I don't see why knowing somebody personally makes their testimony about paranormal experiences any more reliable. One of my oldest friends is convinced that when she was 4 she saw a real fairy. I know she didn't- the fact that I know her to be an honest and reliable person doesn't make her more likely to be right about this.

DioneTheDiabolist Tue 05-Nov-13 12:06:31

Techno, has anyone actually said you were a "complete bastard", or are you seeing things that aren't there?wink

technodad Sun 10-Nov-13 22:17:38

I don't get it.

gamerchick Mon 11-Nov-13 08:25:28

It's Is purely curiosity TD so feel free to ignore.

How would you have replied to this thread?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/1903659-Any-tips-for-getting-rid-of-the-monsters-under-the-bed

technodad Mon 11-Nov-13 21:55:06

Reassure the kid that monsters don't exist. Make sure there are no underlying reasons why the child is anxious about his/her bedroom at night time.

Pretty much the same advice I gave on the ghost thread.

Why do you ask?

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