The Muslim Tearoom

(1000 Posts)
HardlyEverHoovers Wed 20-Mar-13 15:25:06

Salaams/peace to all! I'm already missing our old thread, so taking the bull by the horns and opening our very own Muslim Tearoom, all welcome (non-Muslims too of course), to chat, share, ask questions etc etc. Imagine a cosy cafe with floor cushions, tea and coffee of all kinds, and lovely cakes! Please join me!

Farhana110786 Wed 20-Mar-13 18:00:59

Salaam to you too. Cosy Cafe with floor cushions and cakes sounds lovely smile What happened to the old thread?

HardlyEverHoovers Wed 20-Mar-13 19:11:08

Salaam, welcome! It dwindled out at nearly 1000 messages, this one...
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality/1626217-Just-curious-how-many-muslims-are-on-mumsnet
I don't remember seeing your name on there.

CoteDAzur Thu 21-Mar-13 16:49:32

Marking my place smile

crescentmoon Thu 21-Mar-13 18:14:10

Awwwohhhh hardly! Didnt realise you'd started a new thread how am I going to keep away? Jazakhallah khair anyway for starting a new one. Iv been s.t.r.e.s.s.e.d out recently lots of things piling on me at once BUT I'm grateful that I have family and work and community to be busy over. Can sisters please make dua for me that Allah puts barakah in my time? and barakah in my resources? I see people accomplish alot more on less money and time and i feel they must have more blessing in it which is why it goes further. but i can't ask for that and be on mumsnet regularly though! So il probably be lurking and reading through most of this thread, salam/peace and marhaba/welcome to everyone though

Farhana110786 Thu 21-Mar-13 18:23:37

No I'm new to Mums net smile

Cuddledup Thu 21-Mar-13 19:32:12

Salaam
Pass the cakes please Hardly
Thanks so much for opening up the Tearoom for business.

crescentmoon Thu 21-Mar-13 21:07:04

(tearoom is funny, it makes me think of cucumber sandwiches, white linen tableclothes, kitschy chintz tea sets and furnishings, scones and fresh cream NOT floor cushions hardly. but again, maybe we need to move away from baklava and gulab jaam to bakewell tarts and shortbread? lol)

HolofernesesHead Thu 21-Mar-13 22:00:13

I might sneak in for the odd baklava if I'm allowed! Greetings to all Muslim MNers! smile

MareeyaDolores Thu 21-Mar-13 22:34:04

Can I pop in and sit in the extra-cosy corner with the floor cushions?

HardlyEverHoovers Fri 22-Mar-13 11:55:30

Welcome to mumsnet and the muslim tearoom farhana. Welcome back cuddledup, crescent and cote, I'm imagining you 3 sitting in a corner, debating over tea and scones!
Welcome Mareeya and Holof.
I reckon we need to make this truly multicultural crescent and offer english tea and scones along with arabic tea and baklava, turkish coffee and....perhaps you could enlighten us cote, and maybe even some samosas in your mums syle of samosa diplomacy crescent.
I'll make dua for you crescent, life has its ups and downs in that sense doesn't it. I remember when DS was small and I wasn't getting much sleep I used to make a little dua when I went to bed that Allah would make my 4 hours of sleep like 10 hours. It worked (well at least I got through the days without falling to sleep at random).
Juma mubarek everyone, one of my favourite moments of the week as watching DS get ready to go to juma with his dad (thobe, perfume, hat, the whole works!) - alhamdulillah he looks so proud of himself!

crescentmoon Sat 23-Mar-13 08:16:39

Jazakhallah hardly I really need something like that, for my 5hours of sleep today give me the same energy as 10!
I love the habit of people saying jumaa mubarak- it means blessed Friday doesn't it. (In more ways than one-you've survived the working/school week!) I know some people frown on it but I like to read it and say it. I also like this thing some people have of after a prayer in the mosque,after they've given the Salams on either side to say 'taqaballullah' to the person praying on their right and left. It means 'may Allah accept it' and then the person replies 'minna wa minkum' (from us and from you). The sunnah tradition is really to say it after the Eid prayer but in Egypt they say it even after the daily mosque prayers which I think is a nice way to connect with the person on your left and right.

I like using old duas in new situations. When I was at uni I used to dread one lecturers classes as he loved to humiliate people by putting them on the spot with difficult questions that he'd be really sarcastic and horrible when they couldn't answer!. But I just couldn't skip the class as it was mandatory. So what we'd do is me and two other sisters used to stand outside before his lecture and read the dua that Muhammad (pbuh) said when he escaped with Abu bakr to Madinah and the makkans were chasing them through the desert. The dua about 'keep us hidden from their eyes even in plain site!'. I think it involved a sand dune? Anyway. And wallahi oksumbillah this lecturer even if we arrived late and had to sit at the front never picked us even though he used to make the rounds around the whole class. The whole semester. Of course it could have been that we were so assured he wouldn't pick us that he mistook that for confidence and chose the ones who looked nervous! Lol

crescentmoon Sat 23-Mar-13 08:21:19

Ts lovely your ds goes with his dad to jumaa prayer. Whenever my children spend any time with y dad they always come away smelling strongly of attar perfume because my dad takes it to be Sunnah all the time not just Fridays. I watched a programme once about the perfume industry in the Gulf and thought wryly to myself that must be the most widely practised Sunnah over there!

HardlyEverHoovers Sat 23-Mar-13 14:40:58

I love your lecture dua story Crescent! Because of my poor Arabic I nomally make dua in my own words in English, and I feel that's a really important way to connect, but I must say when I read the sunnah duas it really gives me a sense of peace. I've got a little book called 'Fortress of the Muslim' which has loads in. That book is special as it was given to me when I hadn't been Muslim long, by a chap I was on a course with. He wasn't being at all over friendly (in the wrong way), just came up to me at the end and said someone special had given it to him when he converted and he wanted me to have it. It's been much treasured.

nailak Sat 23-Mar-13 16:39:25

Did anyone keep my tea warm? is it mint tea or chai?

GoshAnneGorilla Sat 23-Mar-13 19:23:53

Salaam! <Pulls up a cushion>

sashh Sun 24-Mar-13 08:51:05

wonders whether she needs to borrow a headscarf

Hi Crescent, thanks for the invite. As well as cake I've brought vegi samosas from Wolverhampton.

Which if it wasn't snowing I'd be getting in RL

HardlyEverHoovers Sun 24-Mar-13 11:20:21

sashh welcome headscarf or no headscarf! mmm, lovely samosas, someone will have to post a recipe I think!
welcome gosh and Nailakplenty of warm tea, whichever type you like. Can anyone make that lovely milky spicy pakistani tea? I love that.

crescentmoon Sun 24-Mar-13 20:25:08

Hello sashh glad you came aboard! Don't mind about headscarves- none of us here are wearing them at home when we're posting anyway. Salams gothann and naila. Glad holo is here too, I always find your posts interesting. mareeyadolores Salams sis (?).

I love 'fortress of a Muslim' too - that was my first adhkar book.i try to read the wird al latif regularly (supposed to be morning and evening after fair and asr prayer!) www.ratib.co.uk/wirdenglish.html and alot of the prayers can also be found in fortress. I like the rythym and cadence of this rendition wird al lateef part 1 so I find it 'playing' in my head when I read.

As for the dua we'd read outside the lecture, one of the sisters was Arab so she'd read the prayer as we'd huddle together then me and the other sis would say 'ameen' lol. We'd walk in so relaxed we were probably the only ones who would make eye contact with him!

If any of you have non Muslim relatives who keep dogs or even if your children love dogs, iv found an interesting article about the Maliki legal school majority opinion on the matter- 'imaam Malik here I come!'. hardly your going from hanafi to Maliki aren't you? How easy is it to relearn the rules again? I think if someone goes to the Maliki school for one thing you'd have to be consistent and follow the rest of the rules on najasah/ wudhu/ prayer. Would make life easier living in a nation of dog lovers!

www.seekingilm.com/archives/118

Moominsarehippos Sun 24-Mar-13 20:30:15

Not muslimn but can I pop in too? On a bench though (as my arthritus won't allow floor sitting these days)! Is this 'MuslimNet?'. Its where some of the nice sensible people hang.

Mine's a sweaty mint water in hot water (don't translations sometimes make things sound errrrrghhhh?).

nailak Mon 25-Mar-13 01:34:49

my inlaws have dogs to stop them getting burgaled, they live on corner house with garages behind and have been burgaled many times

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 25-Mar-13 09:55:41

Asalaamalaikum and good afternoon smile long time no speak smile

Can I have mint chai with two bits of baklawa and a nice portion of konefa min fadlak? Shokran. How is everyone? I'm off to Egypt for two weeks to visit dh's family and have a holiday inshallah. We are all ill with chesty coughs and runny noses unfortunately though. I found out I'm expecting a little girl at my scan, and this is my last baby inshallah so any nice unusual names would be greatly received.

Hope to chat to you all soon smile

LostAndNeverFound Mon 25-Mar-13 09:59:01

Salaam everyone.

Mines a plain old English tea please, also on a bench, don't think my 36 week pregnant rear end would get off the floor!

My DH has a dog which is kept at his mums house. He's never been in the house but has his own cosy shed. Unfortunately all my in laws are scared of him and so haven't stepped foot in their own garden for 3 years! Which is a shame.

Hope you're all well. I haven't been on for ages but lurked a bit, not seen waynetta for a while, is she still around and ok?

LostAndNeverFound Mon 25-Mar-13 09:59:52

Haha, x post waynetta!!

LostAndNeverFound Mon 25-Mar-13 10:03:11

How lovely a little girl alhamdullilah. There are lots of nice girls names I keep coming across, but I'm having a boy so can't use any of them! Have you got any in mind at all?

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 25-Mar-13 10:07:57

Wow ok THAT was weird!!

You're having a boy mashaallah how lovely! Have you got other dc's too? I love zaki, Zaid, Mohsin, Musa and Adam for boys names

HardlyEverHoovers Mon 25-Mar-13 20:34:02

Haha, lostandfound, I read that as your DH had never been in your mums house, made sense of the second reading though! Congrats to pregnant ladies. There are so many lovely girls names to choose from...

Crescent, the transfer to Maliki is under review, which means I'm in madhab limbo at the moment. Not a good place to be, it's a long story.

I think it's not too difficult to relearn the rules, most are the same, but when I studied the Maliki prayer there are some things that were just soooo wierd, like if you accidentally pray without hijab your prayer is still valid!

nailak Mon 25-Mar-13 21:58:15

i have accidently prayed without hijab, fajr, was still half asleep.

Girls names, I like, Aafia,, Saffiya, Nusaybah and Nafisah because of the namesakes.

Moominsarehippos Tue 26-Mar-13 09:14:23

Prayer is from the heart. Many people mouth the words but don't feel the sentiment.

WaynettaSlobsLover Tue 26-Mar-13 09:27:00

I find myself really lapsing in concentration though, especially when the kids are whining or screaming and I'm trying to pray. It's the worst thing. My ds finally knows at least not to walk in front of me. Anyone have tips on concentrating with that proper khushoor?

nailak Tue 26-Mar-13 14:58:57

I don't get it tbh, coz if you prayed like Allah SWT was in front of you, you would never get up from sujood....

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 15:04:43

Salaam,Make mine a mint tea please
I make nice tablet it's v sweets Scottish delicacy

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 15:14:55

Saw on a thread someone said about food as diplomacy,that made me smile
We Have done that at work,so many festivals that always nice grub on go
My friends mum,she's a samosa queen.and there tasty.my kids love them

LostAndNeverFound Tue 26-Mar-13 19:10:00

hardly yes my DH has his own shed in the garden that he sleeps in grin

waynetta I have two DD's already. The eldest has a non muslim name as she's a revert too (my DH isn't her dad). I love the names Samera, Aman/Amana, Imaan, Atteya, Eiliyah, Laila, Saffiya, Sameya, Ummaya, Amaya. The list is endless!

Boys names, I love Zakariya/Zaki, Rehan, Hasan, Rafi. Again the list is endless. We have our boys name though and I didn't get a say. My father in law said he liked this name a few days before he passed away, so it was then an unspoken decision. I'm not that keen on it but I'm sure once he's here it'll grow on me! I hope so anyway!

I think I said on the previous thread I'm interested in learning about the different madhabs. I was talking to my sister in law today about it and it seems they're also in limbo too hardly, and have been all their lives! Their dad was sunni (hanafi) and their mum is shia!! They mainly follow hanafi though, but it still gets confusing though apparently!

WaynettaSlobsLover Tue 26-Mar-13 20:32:07

Nailak even though that's true, do you seriously never have lapses in concentration due to your children? It's easy to say to someone but much harder to do in my experience.

I'll have some of that Scottish tablet please ScottishMummy grin it's one of my favourite sweet things to eat! Hope everyone's evening is a nice one inshallah.

crescentmoon Tue 26-Mar-13 20:58:43

wow salam and welcome scottishmummy very happy to see you here. i love tablet i buy it sometimes from a sweetshop in town that sells mainly american products. i found it in a big jar next to the normal fudge and clotted cream fudge and tried it and absolutely loved it. very delicious! hardly makes amazing mint tea, sister you need to post up the recipe for the tea you pmed me. i read it and thought 'thats why it tastes so delicious!' but honestly it has so many steps its like cooking! i use these tea bags

www.amazon.co.uk/Lipton-Morocco-Mint-Spices-Pyramid/dp/B002HQGN9W

from my local tescos which are delicious and you just bung them into a mug of hot water, wait a few minutes and delicious spiced tea! my favourite tea though is.....cardamom tea! specifically,

www.ahmadtea.com/online-store/cardamon.html

this one, which has a strong cardamom flavour. with carnation evaporated milk, a single clove, half stick cinnamon, 2tsp sugar, ahhh, one of the few pleasures in this dunya since we cant have wine wink wink

i think with the ritual prayer the completing the ablutions before it, praying it in its proper time, the physical standing, bowing, prostrating, it would be sad to do all that without any concentration. but i think even in performing it for the sake of Allah not to show off to anyone around you i think it has its own reward. or at least the discharging of a wajib ibadah. anyway i dont know if i have full concentration but its something im working to.

but you know what waynetta and lost. one of the key differences in the hanafi and shaafiee prayer is that when praying behind an imam once a hanafi begins the salah they only need to follow the actions the fatiha recitation of the imam suffices for the whole congregation. whereas in shaafiee fiqh each individual must recite the fatiha personally, not just the imam.

as for dogs i think the hunting dogs the Quran referred to were the Saluki breed that the Arabs used to train for hunting gazelle and other animals.

www.thenational.ae/guide/historical/flora-and-fauna/salukis

www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200803/a.king.and.two.salukis.htm

some people say it is only these dogs that are exempt from the washing 7 times rule, no others!

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 21:26:20

I just do infusion of fresh mint leaves in teapot is there a recipe?

nailak Tue 26-Mar-13 21:51:37

no waynetta is defo not easy!

crescentmoon Tue 26-Mar-13 21:57:37

that tea pot is a good looking tea pot. like something youd see on the jetsons.

ok here is how hardly told me to make moroccan mint tea...

"These amounts are for about half of a large teapot, the amount of sugar and tea you need will vary according to your taste.

Boil a full kettle of water.

Put 4 tea spoons of china green tea in the teapot.

Put a little boiled water in the pot, enough to immerse the tea.

Leave for 2 minutes, and then pour this water into a cup. This is the 'pure tea'.

Then wash the tea 3 times, by putting about the same amount of boiled water in the pot, swilling, and pouring away.

Now fill the pot about half full with boiled water, and put on a moderate heat (hob or open fire!)

When the tea starts to rise to the top, turn off.

Fill a tea glass about three quarters full of sugar.

Pour tea onto the sugar and mix into a syrup.

Pour this into the pot.

Leave to stand for a little while, and at this point you can add any other ingredients (not orange blossom in your case). Perhaps a handful of fresh mint, or my favourite is dried rose petals and a little musk(mmmmm)."

i will make my special 'qudratul qadr' cake - (the power of God) cake grand name for a grand cake!

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 22:05:46

Could see me doing that recipe at weekend when not rushing about
Lol,Jetsons teapot
Roses and musk where do you get that,are they dried?

crescentmoon Thu 28-Mar-13 19:59:09

Still waiting for hardly to come back to answer about the dried roses and musk! Hope everyone is doing well.

HardlyEverHoovers Fri 29-Mar-13 13:37:31

Salaam, sorry for the disappearing act, busy few days, but I am now offically, 'just a housewife', alhamdulillah! Sorry, slightly cryptic just trying not to our myself.
Thanks for posting the tea recipe crescent, and be warned, an expert can tell if you skip one of these seemingly unnecessary stages. I have tried this on mornings when I'm in a rush and lo and behold DH would say "did you only wash the tea once?"!
Scottishmummy the roses are dried and the musk is a little square block of something I would previously have thought should be rubbed on the skin. They were from my DH's home country, but think you could probably get dried roses from here. Certainly fresh mint is easy to come by.
Nailak I so know what you mean about if you had kushoor you would never up from sujood. It's quite an overwhelming thought. For me, perfecting the outer aspects of the prayer is part of remaining present in the prayer, rather than drifting off an thinking about the dinner!
Oh and nailak I dreamt that I met you in real life!

Cuddledup Mon 01-Apr-13 13:03:34

WOW that tea recipe sounds amazing Crescent.
If anyone is interested in modest clothing I've just bought a really nice maxi skirt and palazzo trousers from Kettlewellcolours. I know I'm not Muslim but I like the idea of wearing maxi skirts (for a start they're warmer!! )
www.kettlewellcolours.co.uk/
Hope you're all having a good weekend / bank holiday.

HardlyEverHoovers Tue 02-Apr-13 16:16:24

That's a nice shop cuddledup, I've not seen it before. Muslims definately aren't the only ones who appreciate clothes that cover you up a bit more! Have you seen www.shukr.co.uk, my non-Muslim sister really liked some jeans I had from there are got them for herself, they do lovely skirts as well.

crescentmoon Tue 02-Apr-13 18:57:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

nailak Thu 04-Apr-13 01:26:13

there are some really good sisters who make custom abayahs on face book, personally i buy mine from ebay or green st £25- £30 is total maximum end of my budget!

nailak Thu 04-Apr-13 01:27:03

any of you interested in attending family funday in manor park on sun? whoever lives near pm me i will tell u details!

crescentmoon Thu 04-Apr-13 10:19:33

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

nailak Thu 04-Apr-13 21:29:31

the one who birthed you. according to Islam. as far as I understand.

nailak Thu 04-Apr-13 21:30:21

I mean even children who are adopted are still attributed to their parents and their mother still has greatest rights over them (orphan in Islam is one whose dad has died)

HardlyEverHoovers Sat 06-Apr-13 20:52:55

yeah that sounds right Nailak. I think this must be a challenge for some people depending on their experiences, inshAllah crescent if this is a personal situation you are able to fulfil the rights of both these people and not have to choose!

nailak Sat 06-Apr-13 21:19:50

I know a few people who were brought up by gps, someone i know is a twin so her gm brought her up and her bro wa brought up by dm, now when it is time to get married and stuff is causing issues. She has basically had to choose one over the other.

crescentmoon Sat 06-Apr-13 21:23:57

Alhamdullillah naila, hardly, jazakhallah khair! work in progress....

recently read this....http://www.aquila-style.com/fashionbeauty/muslim-women-welcome-wudhu-friendly-nail-polish/ so checked it out and now making a plan to head to their store in westfield shepherds bush soon to get some. does knowing this make a difference to any of you or were you following the hayah line not the wudhu line?

lost hope you've had your baby by now sis inshaallah. please keep us posted!

nailak Sat 06-Apr-13 21:33:12

i find it weird wearing nail varnish, like advertising your on your period! lol but when i was pregnant i did.

crescentmoon Sat 06-Apr-13 21:41:40

yeah! thats why i didnt like to wear nail polish too i found it embarrassing because automatically its not just your DH - where i think it is a subtle way to say 'not this week!' grin but everyone else would see and figure it out too!

HardlyEverHoovers Sun 07-Apr-13 19:42:05

Haha, agree on the nail polish front, never wore it anyway as bite by nails and don't really want to draw attention to that! I'm slightly mystified by those little works of art people get put on their nails, if I had that I'd feel like I couldn't do anything with my hands.
Love having henna done though, don't suppose that's any different really.
How come you wore it when pregnant Nailak, don't get the connection?

nailak Sun 07-Apr-13 21:16:35

someone say something slightly controversial, lets add spice to the tea! lol

crescentmoon Sun 07-Apr-13 22:09:58

Lol Spice to the tea?

How about this qurani group? The hadith rejectors? DH has a friend who is one and the children of a few family friends have also declared themselves quranis? I am curious about how they practise without any recourse to hadith. Either narrated by the companions (Sunni) or the ahlul bayt (Shia)...

nailak Sun 07-Apr-13 22:22:17

yeah I have also come accross a few who call themselves the submitters, but it seems they believe in another messenger after Muhammad sas,, not a prophet a messenger. And they believe saying Muhammad sas name in shahadah is shirk, I am also interested in how they pray, calculate zakaat etc.

crescentmoon Sun 07-Apr-13 22:55:34

Shirk really?That's more than i knew. it's interesting what happens when consensus breaks down at the other end (opposite to the takfiri end). What about inheritance? how do they fast? How do they make hajj? the quran has enough detail to set the foundation but really its in the hadith books where you get the details and the explanations.i think of all the strong sunnahs that are not in the quran and wonder even just about the basic hygiene stuff which isn't in the quran but we still see as fundamentals.

nailak Mon 08-Apr-13 01:08:19
nailak Mon 08-Apr-13 01:09:51

Due to a general unawareness of the fact that Abraham was the original messenger of Islam, many so-called Muslims challenge God: "If the Quran is complete and fully detailed (as claimed by God), where can we find the number of Rak`ahs (units) in each contact prayer (Salat)?" We learn from the Quran that all religious practices of Islam were already established before the Quran's revelation (8:35, 9:54, 16:123, 21:73, 22:27, 28:27). Verse 16:123 is direct proof that all religious practices in Islam were intact when Muhammad was born. Muhammad was enjoined to "follow the religion of Abraham." If I ask you to buy a color TV, it is assumed that you know what a color TV is. Similarly, when God enjoined Muhammad to follow the practices of Abraham (16:123), such practices must have been well known.

Another proof of divine preservation of the Islamic practices given to Abraham is the "Universal Acceptance" of such practices. There is no dispute concerning the number of Rak`ahs in all five daily prayers. This proves the divine preservation of Salat. The Quran's mathematical code confirms the number of Rak`ahs in the five prayers 2, 4, 4, 3, and 4, respectively. The number 24434 is a multiple of 19.

The Quran deals only with practices that were distorted. For example, the distorted ablution is restored in 5:6 to its original four steps. The tone of voice during the contact prayers (Salat) was distorted - many Muslims pray silently. This was corrected in the Quran, 17:110. The fasting during Ramadan was modified in the Quran to allow intercourse during the night (2:187). Zakat is restored in 6:141, and Hajj is restored to the four correct months (see Appendix 15).

crescentmoon Mon 08-Apr-13 08:22:43

Naila you quoted that from the website right? I think thats so incorrect what did the makkans do ibadah wise before islam went to them? Where you find universal acceptance on Sunnah is because of 1) quantity of hadith on Salah- the hadith on what constituted the unit of prayer are multiple, many witnesses saw and then narrated it onwards 2) strength of chains of transmission of those hadith -strong hadith 3) consensus of the early Muslims including Shia. That's why you see the same unit of Salah the standing bowing standing prostration sitting prostration, and the Fatiha to begin. Same with the rest of the 5 pillars- what you see in common with all people is because of those hadith that had multiple chains of transmission and strong chains of transmission. Then the differences are to do with single witness single transmission line hadith and also those hadith which have 'good' or 'weak' chains....

HardlyEverHoovers Mon 08-Apr-13 10:10:58

As well as all the more obvious ways in which this seems to be wrong, without the hadith you cannot always understand the spirit in which the commands of the Quran are to be understood. For example for some of the 'controversial' (from a non-Muslim point of view) verses in the Qur'an that refer to the way women should be treated, or that refer to the unbelievers, you need the hadith to understand how those were applied at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) to guide us to how they should be applied in our current situation.

nailak Mon 08-Apr-13 15:06:07

Obviously I agree with you,

but have you ever seen a Jew Pray? www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg

they also pray sunrise and sunset, even the recitation seems familiar. If you watch the vid they have the evidences of how to pray from previous scriptures.

They also seem to have some of the names of Allah.

Hajj was also done pre islam?

crescentmoon Mon 08-Apr-13 15:36:13

jazakhallah naila, post later but just to say it sounds very beautiful. reading the translation and the way they praise sounds very similar to some prayers we have. i always remember from sirah how the makkans disliked how Muhammad (pbuh) and the muslims prayed, offended by the sight of an arab man - one of their proud people - bowing down and putting their heads on the ground. 'you are not slaves' they would say. as for the Jews even the fast in ramadan was a prescription 'as it was prescribed to those before you ....'.

peacefuloptimist Mon 08-Apr-13 18:53:21

Salamalaykum sisters

How are you all? Sorry to just jump in mid conversation but I really need advice. Im going on umrah end of May/beginning of June time (inshallah) and I am really undecided about taking my ds who will be 9 months old when we go. My DH thinks its a bad idea and is not safe for him to go. Any one had experience of taking a baby under the age of 1 on umrah? What did you find difficult or easy? In general anyone who has gone with young children what would you advise? I really don't want to leave him behind as I am breastfeeding him and would like to continue till he is at least 1 years old and am worried I will have to get him used to the bottle early in preparation for my departure. Im just going for 1 week by the way.

nailak Mon 08-Apr-13 19:58:10

walaykum salaam

alhamdulillah you are going to umrah! There is a haj and umrah forum on www.ummah.com/forum where you will get lots of useful advice inshallah.

crescentmoon Mon 08-Apr-13 21:45:09

salams optimist. i think its alot easier to take a baby/young child on umrah than it is on Hajj especially if you are going during the off peak times (after Umrah visa season starts until Ramadan). i found with my two the crowds were alot less - though still numerous! - but you could breathe abit and take in the atmosphere and sights as well as complete the umrah.
i would advise you not to wean him until you come back from umrah in June and just take him with you - it will make the flight easier - dont have to faff around with bottles. it will make your hotel stay and travelling around easier as well. take lots of baby food though unless you are staying somewhere you know will have food or can prepare food for your baby.
try and stay in a hotel as close to the haram as possible - spend your best money if you can. because it will be SWELTERING and you will be going back and forth back and forth through the day to the Haram al Sharif and ifyou have to walk alot you will be tired. i found as well i could spend time praying then quickly get back to my hotel to put my dc down for a nap or feed them easily. it would be harder at a hotel further away from the Kaaba. BUT the hotels close to the haram are megabucks - we are actually trying to save up to go next year and already we've decided to try and go during summer before ramadan as even then it can be expensive. DH as well when it came to hajj and umrah decided to spend as much as we could afford on it so we could worry less and just focus on worship rather than 'how to go back and forth, where to eat, ...'.
when we went we booked everything separately rather than going through one tour operator. i make dua for the sister who gave me the advice to do that. i booked our flight tickets 5 months ahead, booked hotel a few weeks after that and then the only thing we needed a tour operator for was to get the umrah visas as you are not allowed to apply directly to the saudi embassy in london for an umrah visa as an individual.so had to pay charge as well as the visa price but alhamdullillah as we saved alot of money with the other parts.

il tell you something funny when i went on umrah i really enjoyed talking and speaking to people from lots of places more easier than during HAJJ as that was so rushed. we stayed in an iranian pilgrims hotel in Madinah and the people there were lovely, mostly Shia iranians but they were so warm and kind to my dc. i get heartsick when i hear talk on the news of what happened to iraq happening to iran. aoothoobillah min thalik. i also got to sit with alot of turkish pilgrims and i really grew to like turks again - during hajj the turks were notorious along with the malays and the nigerians for being absolutely single minded in getting wherever it is they want to go - whatever happened they would NEVER let go of each other so either you need to walk around them or wait for them to pass lol. alhamdullillah it was fun though! but during umrah again my kids - before i had dc3 - were constantly being petted, kissed, giving treats to, and i enjoyed umrah for that relaxing experience alhamdullillah after the hurly burly of hajj. i cant wait to go again!

LostAndNeverFound Tue 09-Apr-13 08:24:35

Salaam everyone, sorry for the hijack I haven't read the full thread since I last came on. I'm just sat in the labour ward waiting to be induced. Came for my fortnightly growth scan yesterday and he hasn't grown in two weeks and they wouldn't let me home, I was admitted straight away! I'll post once I've had him inshallah. Please pray for a safe delivery for me.

crescentmoon Tue 09-Apr-13 08:37:00

Mashaallah very happy to hear that dear lost, il be making dua for you my sis and will prioritise reading Surah maryam this morning hopefully at some point to pray that you have a safe delivery for your baby inshaallah.

hardly I totally agreed with your post yday as well that hadith explain and put into context most verses of the quran.i dislike translations that involve explanation without clearly delineating the explanation part from translation part. I feel that with muhsin khans translation that it has inbuilt tafsir/ exegesis and the translation should be in one column and explanation below as footnotes so as to separate the opinions of the translator from the text. I think that's why there's such a large scale amount of young Muslims here in the west who have been studying Arabic when their parents didnt learn it in order to understand the quran by themselves even without translation. Madinah, Cairo and Damascus used to be the popular places to ad spend summer holidays at the language institutes but now Damascus is out unfortunately. I get that part of the submitters page about going back to the quran ourselves - but to say no hadith is to ignore a large part of what makes the deen work.

Though learning quranic Arabic doesn't mean you'll be able to converse in Arabic with your regular man on the Arab street- someone told me it was like walking around in London speaking Shakespearean English lol.

HardlyEverHoovers Tue 09-Apr-13 19:16:15

Ooooh, very exciting lost, may Allah may it easy for you and bring you baby safely into the world, will be making dua for you.

LostAndNeverFound Thu 11-Apr-13 00:39:36

Asalaam alaikum sisters. Is there room for one more in the tea room?! My lovely little boy was born today at 6pm. After a hideously slow induction followed by an hour labour! Marsallah he is gorgeous. Thanks for all your prayers.

crescentmoon Thu 11-Apr-13 08:12:14

Mashaallah tabarakallah habibti, mabruk mabruk mabruk! Congratulations my dear sister. May Allah give you a long life for your children and give them long lives for you ameen.and make them a coolness for your eyes, and may they be the fruit from which good is hoped dear lost. Xxxx
(Ps Check your inbox!)

beeny Thu 11-Apr-13 08:17:16

Hi does anyone know a good app for teaching children namaaz?

HardlyEverHoovers Thu 11-Apr-13 20:41:21

Mubarek Lost, may Allah make him one of those who knows Him, inshAllah, hope you are both well. I'm sure we have a baby corner in the tea room!

crescentmoon Thu 11-Apr-13 21:19:28

salams beeny i dont know of any. how did it go with looking for an app to learn arabic? you asked on the previous thread didnt you? i want to learn standard arabic this year- i can speak a little colloquial arabic - so would like to know your experiences too.

nailak Thu 11-Apr-13 21:24:58

mabrooks lost! alhamdulillah, mashallah, that is great news!

beeny Thu 11-Apr-13 22:34:21

Thanks Crescentmoon was for my daughter haven't found anything yet.Just had a wasted easterbreak due to flu for 2 weeks!

crescentmoon Thu 11-Apr-13 22:40:14

sorry to hear that sis, may Allah give you all shifa.

crescentmoon Thu 11-Apr-13 22:47:41

Great your daughter wants to learn. I learnt to pray at 10 years old, my mum gave me a book on Salah told me to read it properly and get up with her for fajr the next morning! Stayed up all night practising the duas it was funny.definitey not going to do that with my own kids though lol.

beeny Thu 11-Apr-13 23:11:50

Thanks Crescentmoon.I feel i need to give some money away.

nailak Thu 11-Apr-13 23:20:02

i dont know about any apps, but there are some good books for salaah, is there book shop near you?

crescentmoon Thu 11-Apr-13 23:21:54

favourite book as a child was ghulam sarwar's 'Islam for children'. Though it made me lazy because I relied on transliteration to learn how to say thngs in arabic rather than reading straight from the Arabic itself.

crescentmoon Thu 11-Apr-13 23:30:55

Mashaallah beeny even to feel that impulse is a sign of a good heart.

crescentmoon Sat 13-Apr-13 08:48:05

Salam alaikum all,

What do u think about setting up a Facebook group for Muslim mumsnetters? Something specific from the philosophy/ spirituality board? I get pms regularly from sisters who don't want to post 'out in the open' here. I think it would be a nice idea.

nailak Sat 13-Apr-13 13:09:48

yes i think that would be good and a lot easier to keep in contact, i dont mind being face book freinds with u all!

HardlyEverHoovers Sun 14-Apr-13 10:55:04

I don't to facebook so I'll have to hope that you still come on here now and again for a chat!
I have a question for other converts, or anyone with close non-Muslim friends or relatives. My husband thinks I don't do enough dawa with my family (inviting them to Islam). I think he might be right, but I'm really scared of driving them away. We see them a lot at the moment, and I hope that seeing the way we live our lives is a form a dawa, but I think I may need to start being a little more proactive.
How do others do it?

beeny Sun 14-Apr-13 13:40:15

You dont need to do dawa tell your husband there is no compulsion in religion.The example to people is being a decent human being and not ramming religion down their throats.

HardlyEverHoovers Sun 14-Apr-13 16:32:43

I know what you mean Beeny, but I'm wondering if there is a middle ground, as I feel I should at least explain what Islam is...

beeny Sun 14-Apr-13 19:57:42

I dont think that is necessary its up to u im a practising muslim but people going on about religion is off-putting.

HardlyEverHoovers Sun 14-Apr-13 20:24:57

Yeah, that's what I was explaining to my husband, I know I would have found it off putting. I think someone needs to be open first and an indication of openness is asking questions for example. I was attracted to Islam through the manners and actions of Muslims, and then started asking questions. Sometimes I think maybe I'm just being a bit of a wimp though!

beeny Sun 14-Apr-13 20:43:57

You are not a wimp.I honestly believe that a decent human being is attractive and interesting whatever their religion but people who constantly show their piety are very unappealing.

crescentmoon Sun 14-Apr-13 23:11:06

salams hardly,

i only suggested it because i thought this thread was dying and i figured it would bring alot of sisters out of lurking! i also dont keep a facebook account but was going to set one up just to form the group. naila can you do it instead i tried to today. still want to keep purdah though dont know about the rest of you lot! i would like to see more chats like the ones on the old thread here too.

as to your dilemma its not difficult - actions speak louder than words. i have similiar dilemmas with my non practising relatives. theyre waiting for you to pull away, preach at or condemn them so you dont do any of that. kill them with kindness instead! iv seen that work miraculously in lots of different situations.

nailak Sun 14-Apr-13 23:26:55

ok shall i start a fb group? but you lot have to inbox me your fb names!

As for dawah with family, I agree best dawah is through actions, in showing them how islam has made you a better person and improved your relationships with them smile

nailak Sun 14-Apr-13 23:30:51

Ok I made it is called sisters tea room

Cuddledup Fri 19-Apr-13 21:17:57

HI all, As a non muslim can I ask you how you feel about being in a mosque. Does it bother you the segregation in a mosque. I heard about a muslim woman in the US who campaigns against the segregation. All I wanted to know is it really an issue amongst UK Muslims ? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Standing-Alone-American-Womans-Struggle/dp/0060832975

Hope you're all keeping well.

crescentmoon Sat 20-Apr-13 08:48:17

With big city mosques its not an issue the women's sections are often large, spacious, children can play, women can pray, I used to breastfeed openly in the mosque as I felt comfortable because of the segregation. Its also a place to go and sit, chat (not gossip!), relax, sleep(!) - its not unusual to find someone lying down napping in a mosque! Either in mens section or womens section. I don't feel it would be as comfortable to do those things if it wasn't segregated.

The problem is with the small neighobourhood mosques. Often because the mosque committee doesn't have enough money - most UK mosques are funded by wealthy members in the community rather than a tithing system - they cannot afford to build a separate women's room and so women's prayers are not facilitated. In Islam praying in the mosque is obligatory on men not women but there is an explicit hadith saying 'do not prevent your women from going to the mosque'. I dont often go as i gain the same reward praying the prayers at home as my DH would doing it in the mosque and i rely on that. but I know very well that the early Muslims used to all pray in same room. And as the author of that book you linked to cuddledup noted in mecca men and women sometimes pray right next to each other in mixed rows. That should be the practical solution with UK mosques with not enough money to afford to keep two separate prayer rooms. It depends on what the local community want. Some areas especially even If there is a prayer room if the majority of women are hanafi school then they won't go to the mosque anyway. But the room can be for women only talks, lectures classes etc. it's evolving slowly though alhamdullillah.

fuzzywuzzy Sat 20-Apr-13 09:25:54

In Mecca men & women don't pray I'm mixed rows for compulsory prayers.

I prefer segregated prayers, I would not be happy standing foot to foot & shoulder to shoulder with strange men.

Most new mosques are being built with women's sections.

crescentmoon Sat 20-Apr-13 09:32:11

i didnt know either fuzzy but during the hajj they certainly do for the compulsory prayers - it does seem very strange tbh. because the prayer is not just sitting down but its very physical, cozy when performing it with other women even if your squashed in the row but very uncomfortable when praying next to men. another thing i didnt know was the rule that women are not allowed to wear the niqab - face veil- or cover their hands during the hajj/ umrah (during ihram).

fuzzywuzzy Sat 20-Apr-13 09:37:06

I knew about the face veil, the ehram is supposed to represent the shroud, we dont cover faces when we put the dead in the grave.

In the harraam, it's all segregated, but during the hajj rites the prayers are mixed, but thats because you would never find your companion if you went to the back to pray!

crescentmoon Sat 20-Apr-13 09:58:13

i went on a course last year about how to wash the dead before burial, then a lady passed away soon after and i was one of the women called in to prepare her. it was very sobering and moving, i didnt realise the ihram during Hajj was supposed to represent that.

Cuddledup Sat 20-Apr-13 18:19:43

Oh thank you for those wonderfully informative replies. Now you've explained it to me it makes total sense. Of course why would you want to be standing next to a completely strange (!) man when the prayers are so physical. As usual what seems as an odd thing on the face of it is completely logical when explained. TBH in church it does seem odd to be sitting next to strangers even when kneeling in prayer.
Thanks as always for taking the time to explain. Hope you're all having a good weekend.

fuzzywuzzy Sat 20-Apr-13 19:46:48

Cuddledup, when we pray we actually stand so our shoulders and feet touch. Seriously don't like touching random strangers, less so random strange men.

Glad it answers your question.

Cuddledup Sat 20-Apr-13 20:38:09

Fuzzy I know exactly what you mean. Years ago a friend encouraged me to go salsa dancing with her and i HATED it. Not just because I have two left feet and no sense of rythymn but I was so uncomfortable being that close to a complete stranger. IT seemed so wrong to me! Needless to say I stopped salsa dancing.

crescentmoon Sat 20-Apr-13 20:50:22

(whispers Anyone else found themselves moving slowly and carefully whilst out and about this week? bummed like me that those guys behind the bombings werent extremist right wingers? now its not one of them they are going to be leading the baying for all of us to be villified instead. sigh peace sisters.)

Glad to help cuddledup. Il make a small confession, knowing the teen I was I think it was probably good our mosque had separate male and female entrances as I would probably have been the type to loiter/walk slowly through the mosque courtyard otherwise lol. It made it that if I'm going to the mosque its not to see and be seen by the boys my own age ha.

crescentmoon Sat 20-Apr-13 20:58:34

Funny you say that about salsa dancing. I had my French friend once show me a type of ballroom dancing and I was really keen to learn but I felt the same way as you once we started. She laughed at me because I'd shown her how to do other dances but they don't have any contact- sensual not sexual. I hated the holding close thing and i became so shy though I was always tended to be an extrovert myself!

Cuddledup Mon 22-Apr-13 20:41:17

Another question - or rather advice please - how do you manage to fast without thinking about food ALL the time. Recently I've started the 5:2 diet and on the two days I eat 500 calories I find I'm dreaming about food an awful lot of the time! SO ladies - what's your advice ? How do you manage Ramadan - obviously your minds are more spiritual matters so I goes that helps!

CoteDAzur Mon 22-Apr-13 20:48:01

Cuddle - It's probably not just standing side by side with strange men but also having those strange men in the row behind you getting a good view of your backside as you bend forward, put your face to the floor and point your bum to the ceiling smile

Re fasting - Not eating/drinking at all prevents your metabolism from properly restarting (or some such) so you don't feel that hungry even though you eat nothing all day. Maybe try that as a diet or maybe don't because it's silly

CoteDAzur Mon 22-Apr-13 20:51:44

crescent - I was in London last week when the Boston bombs went off and the resentment towards the visibly Muslim part of the population was palpable.

BlueOrange Mon 22-Apr-13 21:25:26

Salaam all.... Did anyone watch panorama - secrets of britains shariah courts? I agree with what the woman said at the end of the program. I do think that women seeking divorce via khula should be made much easier - because in islam it is easier. I also wonder how many women (if any) are able to sit on the council and make decisions as such. I feel it is vital that there are more women involved in such councils and then you will see fairer and better quality of advice.

BlueOrange Mon 22-Apr-13 21:33:30

Cuddle i couldnt advise on the 5:2 diet as i like the thought of trying it to gain the benefits of health and weight loss but do not last the day! it is in fact it a highly virtuous act for muslims to fast on alternate days. On the other hand, i find that if i am fasting for ramadan or other religious days (for the sake of Allah) i feel i have the will and resolve to keep going.

BlueOrange Mon 22-Apr-13 21:42:25

Cote.... The bum is not meant to be in the air........ If so, you are doing something wrong. The hands, toes, knees, nose and forehead should make contact with the floor. It is called prostration - submission to your Lord.

nailak Mon 22-Apr-13 21:55:47

I am watching now, I agree blue it should be easier and less expensive. However I didn't like the programme. It wasn't balanced in any way.

nailak Mon 22-Apr-13 21:56:37

in fact im gonna turn it off now is a waste of time

crescentmoon Mon 22-Apr-13 22:04:54

the issue of khul is very fraught isnt it blue. in the time of the prophet (pbuh) khul was the way a woman got out of a marriage that she no longer wanted without having to prove the husband mistreated her. its the earliest 'no fault' divorce.
but many muslim cultures would not allow the hadith and verses on the quran about this right to be enacted. but they still allowed men to divorce by talaq - and men could leave without efforts to reconcile but women had to show they tried to reconcile before theygot their divorce.

in Egypt it was only in March 2000 that khul divorce was allowed because of campaigning by womens rights activists. before then the husband had to give permission for a divorce but after the law was enacted the judge could give a woman her divorce without the permission of the husband by allowing her to give her mahr back. it is said that by the middle of that first month, 3,000 petitions by women seeking divorce under these provisions were filed in Cairo alone.

www.wisemuslimwomen.org/currentissues/separationanddivorcelaws/

more on the egypt casein particular...

gabrielsawma.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/khul-divorce-in-egypt.html

i know in the UK now there is no need to get an islamic divorce if a couple go through/ attain the british court decree nisi and decree absolut. the islamic divorce begins from the decree absolut - i dont know how long that has been the case it surprised me. you still need to have an islamic nikah to marry but do not need a specifically islamic divorce to split up.

nailak Mon 22-Apr-13 22:04:57

and they didnt answer the basic question if there are no shariah councils then it would be impossible for women to get khula and be free of nikkah, so how would that be better?

crescentmoon Mon 22-Apr-13 22:23:26

check this out though naila

www.muftisays.com/qa/question/4211/separated-for-6-years.html

it says that the court divorce decree absolut is now enough and a women need no longer specifically obtain an islamic divorce. i think that would save alot of sisters from alot of hassle inshaallah.

as for fasting cuddledup - i cannot manage it outside of ramadan. iv thought about the 5:2 fasting but tbh i dont have the self discipline to starve myself like that. i dont know what happens to me during ramadan but i find a way to manage it - more because it is obligatory than a nice spiritual exercise to do. iv got an exemption from fasting this years ramadan though and - Allah forgive me - it was the only bright side to a big change of plans!

cote as to that it is quite noticeable at times. nowhere near as bad as after july 7th though - i was doing a summer job then and my boss told me that morning to go home for my own safety - he was an Aussie as well!

crescentmoon Mon 22-Apr-13 22:30:52

im glad oral repudiation - which many men misuse - is being phased out in alot of countries and instead focus is on court divorce.

BlueOrange Mon 22-Apr-13 22:43:45

Naila, you are right. The program portrayed dr Hasan as unsympathetic to women's plight. It didnt highlight the fact that he asked the woman to give it a month in order for her to be certain that this was the right decision for her.

Nobody said not to involve police - they said that if you bring in the police, you are basically setting the wheels in motion for divorce proceedings rather than resolving issues.

All that said and done, i do feel that charging women £400 is ludicrous and a shariah council creating difficulties for women to get khula is not very islamic either. None of the undercover reports in this program showed dr hasan or the lady advisor (missed her name ) saying that the women would not get a khula.

I say it again....we need more women on these councils.

nailak Mon 22-Apr-13 22:58:29

hmm but the thing is a shariah council is supposed to be a place for judges, which means the issue really is getting more women to study islamic jurisprudence in depth.

BlueOrange Mon 22-Apr-13 23:38:43

Naila, there are so many knowledgeable sisters.....and many know more about islam than men sitting in these councils. Charging women £400? Asking for husband to come who has a history of violence proven with injunctions? Dragging out khula applications for years. These cases do not seem very islamically dealt with to me. It s so unfortunate when a woman complains of husband hitting her and then she is asked if she makes herself look pretty for her huband by another woman. That is not an islamic question, but a cultural one.

The islamc guideline of a woman beautifying herself for her husband does not equal to a woman must look pretty for her husband so that he might spare her a beating!

I am shocked that a country like egypt never allowed something as fundamental as a khula divorce until 2000.

nailak Mon 22-Apr-13 23:57:42

knowledgable is different from having studied in Islamic universities though?

I agree these cases havent been dealt with Islamically. But you also have to remember video editing. Looking good for your husband is an ibadah it is from Islam. of course not looking good doesnt justify violence, however i didnt see the sister say if you dont dress up it was ok for your husband to hit you. Also her advice to get family involved, what was wrong with that? women shouldnt be afraid to speak out to their community about abuse, they havent done anything wrong, brothers who are afraid of their fathers and brothers, this can effect them!

The major problem i can see is if the husband doesnt come. But if the husband doesnt come and doesnt reply to letters they grant the khula.

fuzzywuzzy Tue 23-Apr-13 12:53:18

I got a khul, the mufti who married us also granted my khul, he didnt even suggest mediation when he heard my reason (ex was violent).

Probably the reason divorce is accepted if one is granted an English divorce is because in order for a divorce application to go thro the courts, both parties sign the divorce petition, signing the divorce petition is one divorce. Also as a Muslim one is meant to adhere to the laws of the land (if they do not conflict with Islamic law) and if the law permits a divorce then it is not unislamic, divorce is allowed in Islam, it's just that society makes it such a big deal about it, but only for a woman.

I've been told all sorts for seeking a divorce, however I remember the lady who approached the Prophet (saw) and requested she be allowed to divorce her husband on the grounds she could not stand him, he was fine she just did not like him and felt unable to be a wife to him, the Prophet (saw) did not make a huge deal about it and allowed her the divorce and asked her to return her mahr.
Forcing a woman to remain married is unjust, and cruel and form of zulm.

Cote has a point regards praying, when we go down in rukuh and prostration, bottoms are more obvious and it could be distracting ...

Regarding fasting, we eat before dawn, so the hunger pangs don't kick in till later in the day, also during ramadan as you're fasting continuously for the month your body gets used to it, I actually have to retrian myself to eat during the day as I just dont feel hungry during daytime for a while after ramadan.
I also try to fast every Monday and Thursday so my body is used to it.

We so absolutely do need more female Islamic scholars.

crescentmoon Tue 23-Apr-13 14:22:42

sometimes the khul/talaq is necessary or even better than the civil law. i suppose in the UK the sharia court deals with cases of couples who had a religious marriage but not a civil marriage. so because they were not married officially they cannot get a court divorce so the only recourse to dissolution of the marriage is by the mufti.

in the republic of ireland the law there only grants divorce after a couple have been separated for 5 years. so there were people who wanted to get divorced but had to wait those 5 years - no difference to shacking up with someone else but you couldnt marry them.

then the muslim community there asked the euro fatwa council if they should also have to wait 5 years to get the civil divorce before marrying again. and in that specific country those irish muslims were told that as long as they had the khul/talaq islamic divorce then they could remarry because the law wouldnt let them move on otherwise. but still people had to show official papers from a mufti saying they were divorced but its still a tangle in terms of what happens if someone dies within that 5 years before the divorce is granted does it go to the spouse or does it go to their islamic marriage partner. difficult situation but iv read fatwas on websites dealing with it.

Cuddledup Tue 23-Apr-13 21:12:36

Thanks for answering my questions about fasting, it's as I imagined - having a faith really helps when doing such a major fast as Ramadan.

Interesting to read about the Panorama programme- I'm a bit cynical as think these type of religious programmes would be v different if made by people of that particular faith. IYKWIM. USually they're just a bit sensationalist and seem to be wanting to perpetuate prejudices. (Maybe I'm being unfair on the programme makers as I didn't see the programme0

V amused by all the comments about praying with bottoms in the air. grin
Take care all - I love reading this thread as I'm learning so much.

ThenWeTakeBerlin Tue 23-Apr-13 21:52:16

Hi everyone, I'm not a muslim but finding this thread a fascinating read smile

ThenWeTakeBerlin Tue 23-Apr-13 22:46:37

Oops, hit post too soon. I had a question to ask, if that's OK?

I know that muslims pray five times, do you repeat the same prayer five times or say a different one each time?

If you want to pray for a particular person, if they are sick, in danger, etc, do you include that in one of the five prayers or do it as a separate prayer?

TIA x

ClearlyDad Tue 23-Apr-13 23:46:48

Hi Tia,

The 5 prayers time-slots are quite interesting as they vary in the number of repetitions of prayer featured in each one. In total there are 17 compulsory repetitions spread between the 5 time-slots. It's all done in Arabic (which functions the way Latin did for the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church).

A single repetition consists of a common framework of the first 7 verses of the Quran, which runs:

"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Praise be to God, Lord of the Worlds. Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee (alone) we worship and Thee (alone) we ask for help. Show us the straight path. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray"

together with any other verses from the Quran that the Muslim might wish to add in (in many ways this is quite an art... there are the Muslim equivalent of cantors (Jewish/Catholic) who memorize vast chunks of the Quran and hone their voices to deliver it in as melodic and historically perfect way as possible).

There are also always supplications whilst bowing and prostrated (supplications = ^"Glory be to God the Almighty", "Glory be to God the most high"^).

If you were visiting a Muslim household/mosque you'd hear the first bit really quite loud, and the supplications as almost mumbling as people bowed and then bent to the floor.

That should answer your first question.

Second, you ask about praying for people. Well, it's not quite like bidding prayers at church, and how it's done depends partly on how good the person praying is at Arabic. For an Arabic speaker, they'd pick a part of the Quran that conveys the message they want to get across (so if there dad was ill, they might weave in a passage from the Quran about parents or God's healing power) and mentally dedicate it to their dad. Most Muslims aren't good Arabic speakers (there aren't that many... the language is found mainly in hot, desert countries that don't lend themselves to large populations), so the prayers form more of a meditative focus than anything conscious, with the key verses being memorized (the contrast with Church Latin is quite accurate). Within this meditative space, we believe that God is aware and listening to us, and so we direct our thoughts to whoever or whatever it is we wish to pray for.

You'll notice that I translate everything, even Allah to God. This has a long historic precedent, especially in the other direction amongst Christians who find themselves worshiping in Arabic or Arabic derived languages (God=English Dieu=French Allah=Arabic). It's not really a problem as it is the same God, just seen from the perspective of a somewhat expanded revelatory canon.

I hope this helps.

fuzzywuzzy Tue 23-Apr-13 23:59:49

Thenwe, regarding the prayer, we pray five times a day, it's a set ritual prayer and follows a specific formula. It is all done in Arabic.

After the ritual prayer one can sit and pray for things, like ask for health or help or guidance etc which is what you're asking about I think.

My children and a most of my friends are fluent in Arabic or at least know what they recite when they pray. We have classes to teach people Arabic and how to pray correctly. Quranic Arabic is pretty easy to pick up, at least my children think so.

ClearlyDad Wed 24-Apr-13 00:13:37

Ouch! The only Arabic I learnt was parade ground drill and haggling with taxi drivers... but I converted much later in life!

I still think the comparison with Latin is valid.

crescentmoon Wed 24-Apr-13 03:58:07

Not Latin, that wasn't the original language of the bible or the language Jesus spoke in. The reason the prayers are read in Arabic are the same as why Hindus read theirs in Sanskrit and the Jews read their prayers in Hebrew. Because for the Christian it was Jesus who was holy not the New Testament Greek but in Islam Judaism and Hinduism if is the scripture that is holy. We read the daily prayers in Arabic to maintain that continual link with the Quran in its original language. It was the beauty of the quran when recited by muhammad (pbuh) that made the early muslims convert and it is its first miracle- its linguistics and the beauty of the cadence of rythym. The Arabic Quran is why modern standard Arabic is so close to original though 1400 years plus have passed- whereas Latin is the basis of other european languages but is not used anymore as a spoken language.
Memorising the quran in arabic means you are one of its guardians - you can know by hearing or reading if the text has been tampered with. Even without understanding one can say 'there's a line/word missing!'.

having to read it in Arabic means you can meet a muslim from any part of ghe world and pray the daily prayers together- it is a unifying factor. Even if you have no other language in common, the daily prayer is performed in arabic and has a common formula so you can join in a prayer anywhere.

also before colonisation for many hundreds of years many Muslim cultures wrote their own languages using Arabic letters not English letters. and there were lots of arabic words used in their own languages. many non Arab Muslims still go into learn Arabic to understand the quran without a translation - there are Arabic classes all over the UK in mosques and community centres. As well we learn tajweed so as to maintain the same rules of Arabic recitation as the early Muslims had. That is specific to Quran Arabic not required in modern standard arabic.

But your prayer to God other times can be in your own language. On the Hajj/umrah you will hear people calling out prayers in many languages at the Kaaba when they are doing the circumambulation around it. And in mosques the Friday address /service is usually down in the original language before the prayer is begun- inshallah soon to be standardised to English across all UK mosques!

crescentmoon Wed 24-Apr-13 04:05:38

I met a lovely old man a few days ago who converted to Islam in his mid 70s. He said Salam alaykum to me which wasn't so surprising I assumed maybe he had lived and worked in the gulf years ago and I answered him. But then he proudly began to tell me his story and began reciting the Fatiha from the Quran and a few other surahs- and I stood snd listened and was very moved that an elderly english man in his 80s had taken up memorising the Quran for prayers. And he read the verses word perfect subhanallah sisters and told me how he knew the meaning. it's never too late to learn I wish I had taken his number to invite him to our home but if asked DH to look out for him in our local mosque and bring him round if he can!

crescentmoon Wed 24-Apr-13 04:44:22

I agree with you about the meditative focus part. When I pray for someone I usually read the Fatiha first- the opening chapter of the Quran- then I ask in English in my head or out loud. Or if its hearing something troubling or sad I read the Fatiha than make a prayer in English.

the muslim greeting 'Salam alaikum' / peace be upon you - by itself Is actually a prayer. when we say it to each other we are actually praying for peace for each other- the fact it's in Arabic means if you have no other language in common you can still express that sentiment to another Person wherever they or you are from. My daughter has taken to saying 'maasalaama' to everyone Muslim or non Muslim whenever we say goodbye even when walking away!

(trying to stay awake till fajr since ds1 woke me up as he was feeling unwell. He's back to sleep now alhamdulilah but I know if I sleep now il wake up at 7 and end up praying it after sunrise - again!)

fuzzywuzzy Wed 24-Apr-13 09:59:41

I presume the bible in its original format would have been in Aramaic not Latin.

Latin is a dead language.

Arabic is a current and live language, with regional variations and living people who use it every day and can teach it and pass it on to others.
Its a language worth learning in it's own right, especialy if you want to work in the Middle East ever (tax free top end wages anyone?).

I've made a point of ensuring my children learn conversational Arabic so they understand exactly what it is they are praying, my youngest sometimes corrects my grammar bahahahahahaha

I also think languages are an advantage generally, I want my girls to be fluent in at least one other European language besides English Inshallah.

ClearlyDad Wed 24-Apr-13 10:09:15

Actually, the bible was written in a combination of languages (mainly Hebrew/Greek depending on which testament).

Latin served as a unifying language of prayer and worship for Catholics from about the 5th century onwards, and whilst not having the same derivation as Arabic (i.e. originally when JC spoke, he was speaking Aramaic, whereas early Muslims DID use Arabic) the sociological/linguistic glue factor was there right up until the 1970's. My gran (Irish catholic) travelled widely, and was able to join in mass in Latin anywhere she went... in exactly the same way as a Muslim could arrive at any mosque and join in with the Arabic.

I guess what I'm doing is separating out "Historic origin and justification" from "Modern usage and effect".

ClearlyDad Wed 24-Apr-13 10:38:15

Can I ask a question now?

This is a serious one. As some of you may have guessed, I'm a Muslim who was raised catholic (long story, I also have a degree in Religious Studies, and speak French, Mandarin and bits of a few other languages, so tend to know my stuff), although I don't really know who to talk to or how to "get involved" with Islam on a practical level... because there are cultural differences in the way things are done which I don't cope well with as a father (everything from what jokes are considered appropriate to how respect is shown).

I am also a recent dad and my kid looks up to me (which is nice, if somewhat intimidating). Now, raising a kid Muslim makes sense on a philosophical level, but culturally I struggle (possibly because I appear to be such an outsider).

One example would be in the naming of the kid. We struggled and in the end went for a VERY traditional Scottish name that can be pronounced by Arabic/Urdu speakers rather than an "Islamic name"... essentially because when the altzheimer's has kicked in, and I'm sat half blind in a nursing home, I want to be able to recognise my kids when they introduce themselves to me).

Other things that bug me is the way stories are told in Islam. There is an overload of reverence for the book, the people and the stories (which for an adult can be a good thing), but I feel that it might make my kid less flippant and willing to question and challenge the world when compared to the mix of comic books and songs that catholic kids get offered. I suppose the English language/Christian equivalent would be the following juxtaposition.

This is how many Muslims seem to tell stories (very "King James!"):

"And verily, (because he is most high) did God grant unto his most loyal servant (pbuh), the might and power (being a shadow of the might and power displayed and embodied by God) necessary to overcome his enemies, and lo he did smite them with his arms and rend their hosts asunder".

Whereas what I want to say is (a bit more "Star Wars"):

"A long time ago in a far away place, God could see that his friends were struggling, so he made them stronger. When their enemies attacked, they didn't know what hit them... it was like the closing scene of the Avenger's movie, but with camels and swords. God's servant fought so hard that he was chopping people IN HALF!"

I guess what I'm looking for is a way to do the "no God but God, Mohammed is his messenger" bit with my kid whilst still being the person I've always been, and having him still feel like my son (because, to be honest, it would weird me out 20 years from now, if he didn't share the family sense of humour). I am actually quite resistant to sending him to the Islamic/Arabic Saturday school (preferring a mix of rugby and mandarin Chinese).

Please try not to be too harsh, because this is a struggle to realise that many of the things that I really enjoyed about my childhood may not happen for the kid in the same way.

fuzzywuzzy Wed 24-Apr-13 11:02:34

Congratulations on your 'recent' dadhood, scary isn't it? smile

I have a set of books called Quran stories for little hearts, which tells the prophetic tales really beautifully and accessibly.

I send my girls to an Islamic school and they teach the children in a really lovely way, without being all fusty and more importantly are nothing near fire and brimstone, I hate that method of teacinhg.

The Quran translations are a bit 'correct' however both my girls are very very articulate and well spoken and have a rather alarming extensive vocabulary which regularly scares the heck out of me.

For example;

A couple of winters ago when Dd2 was aged 6 (this is very relevant), we had snow, we all had loads of fun in the snow and my girls built a snowgirl.
On Monday morning we were all getting ready for school, when I heard a blood curdling scream from my youngest child follwoed by the panic stircken cry of 'mummy, mummy, come quick. Emily has PEWISHED, she has PEWISHED!!!' (my youngest has a slight lisp) I nearly burnt myself in the panic, I kept going 'who's Emily? Who on earth is Emily, ohgod ohgod' for that mad panic stricken moment I was convinced a child called Emily had come to my house and perished and I was thinking, but I'm not that ditzy I would have noticed an extra child,...surely, then I went thro the names of the neigbours kids and I was going thro a mental list of dd2's friends and then dd1's' friends names.

When I ran upstairs, my half dressed child was looking out of the window, and pointing at the melting snow girl.

I complained to the school about it, to which the teacher replied, 'Well she doesn't use that sort of vocabulary in her written work.....' !!!!! hmm grin

A good vocabulary can age a parent dramatically.

Leave the cultural stuff, you are well within your rights to name your child whatever you want, so long as the name has a good meaning.

The childrens books are in my opinion by and large fusty and boring, but the Quran stories for little hearts series is good, my girls are being bought up on a mixture of my own childhood favourites (C.S Lewis, Diana Wynne jones, Austin, Shakespeare - I love books) and the more readable Islamic books. I want my girls to enjoy their childhood, they've been thro a tough time, I want them to look back and love the times we were together, and I incorporate that into how I teach them, there is nothing wrong with joking and being happy and loving one another.

I even take my girls to the ballet!!!

ClearlyDad Wed 24-Apr-13 11:08:25

Sounds like the kind of plan I need. Just out of interest, why did you complain about them using the word "perished"?

fuzzywuzzy Wed 24-Apr-13 11:16:12

I didn't really complain, I told the teacher what had happened and said I wish she'd use normal words every other child in essex does, where does she even come up with that kind of language......teacher was very very amused and pointed out it must be the Quran classes.

Seriously nearly killed me tho.

We have new rule in the house, do not scream unless there is blood.

fuzzywuzzy Wed 24-Apr-13 11:17:24

OMG I misspselled Austen shock

ClearlyDad Wed 24-Apr-13 11:22:42

Or in some of the other books you read to her!

It sounds like our kids would probably get along quite well.

fuzzywuzzy Wed 24-Apr-13 11:28:50

My library is geared towards young readers so the complete works of Shakespeare is in simplified English, both my girls read themsleves.

My youngest actually writes her own short stories which are really cute and very thoughtful.

My aim is to encourage a love of learning. There are no limits to what I know my girls can achieve providing they have the desire.

fuzzywuzzy Wed 24-Apr-13 11:31:09

The time around when dd2 started using the word 'perished' they were learning Surah lahab which begins 'Perish the two hands of Abu Lahab'

ClearlyDad Wed 24-Apr-13 12:02:03

Not a bad thing to have a rich vocabulary. Kids do tend to "register mash" a lot. My favourite line (from a kid with medical parents) was "Sir, it's so hot in this classroom, my snot is coagulating".

nailak Wed 24-Apr-13 18:18:10

I think there is a lot of material around that makes Islam accessible to young kids, My First Quran, Bed time Stories for litte hearts, stories of the prophets, also some of the madrassa workbooks with colouring, short stories, quizs etc are great, as is Discover and Little Explorer Magazines.

All you need is a good bookshop!

Cuddledup Wed 24-Apr-13 19:50:57

WOW - what an interesting thread we've got going.(I find myself googling a lot of the Arabic phrases which is great as I'm learning loads which is what I love about Islam the emphasis on study and self-improvement.

ClearlyDad thanks for posting, I'm really interested (as a non muslim and lapsed Catholic) to hear what you have to say and the replies.. Congrats on the recent parent hood, it's such fun and a privilege being a parent. Before I had my DD my life was monochrome now it is technicolor as she brings me such joy.

Fuzzy I love the PEWISHED story. My dd (8) has started saying that things are "joyous" ! Always makes me giggle as it's such a happy word.

Ok ladies (and gents) now for my question of the evening is it true that in Islam instead of doing your 5 prayers throughout the day you can do them all in one sitting (so to speak). ?Is that right ? If this is correct then it's yet another example of how wonderfully practical Islam is by recognising that people may not have the opportunity to pray at set times during the day. (IMO Islam is a wonderfully practical religion - please don't take offence at that comment it's meant as a compliment).

I hope you've all had a good day.

ClearlyDad Wed 24-Apr-13 23:08:53

Not really in one sitting (unless travelling, then special rules can apply).

But, you know the Vulcan salute from Star Trek? You can bunch them together in that pattern (1+2+2). In some parts of the world it's actually very necessary because the times between the prayers can be very short... so far north the sun takes a long time to fall, but in more tropical climes the sun sinks fast!

You will probably all notice that I have a fairly child-like way of "register mashing" myself. It took my wife a while to get used to it, but it mostly works out okay.

Here's food for thought for you. There's an Islamic concept of "innate knowledge" (fitra for all the Arabic fans out there). Fitra explains lots of stuff... it explains why people are so shocked by violence, because deep down inside you "know" it's wrong; same with lots of the ethical/moral "gut feelings" we tend to have. Interestingly it fills the niche in Arabic philosophical thought occupied by Occam's razor and other such tests and goes some way to explain the gradual shift in global religious practices from polytheism (pick an ancient civilization) to monotheism. Now all it really takes to be a Muslim (not a practicing Muslim, or an observant Muslim, but the equivalent of a "baptized individual") is a public declaration of belief... it runs "There is no God but God, and Mohammed is his messenger". Breaking that in part, chances are you have no problem in the first bit... and given that the only other character to match Mohammed in long-term global influence is JC, the whole "divine message" thing doesn't sound that far fetched either. Now if that "feels sensible" you're probably 60% of the way to "being" Muslim!

Incidentally, in case that has got you worried, it doesn't mean dressing like a nun/ninja (pick your stereotype!) unless you want to, kowtowing to weird opinionated and bearded blokes or any of the other cultural stuff that silly people (on both sides of the fence) decide to tie in with the deal. It just means having a bit of a detox (alcohol is pretty much out... unless you end up with an infected gum and your only available disinfectant is whiskey... suffering like an idiot isn't part of the deal either), making some time in your day/life to have a chat with the big dude upstairs (again, for my Arabic audience "big dude upstairs" is as close as my sense of humour gets to a translation of Al-Halim... think about it!)... there's other stuff, but that follows in time (fasting, charitable giving, and a package holiday to the sunny kingdom of Saudi Arabia!). The prayers are really quite nice (I have a theory... modern Islam evolved at a time of conflict, and many of the practices are just "good drills"... the movements that accompany the prayers are quite yogic and good for the joints!).

Hope this helps... I almost expect to get shot down by the more experienced members of the community, but my heart's in the right place!

nailak Wed 24-Apr-13 23:17:14

MashaAllah clearly that post was beautiful, I am crying lol

ClearlyDad Thu 25-Apr-13 00:26:43

Just an aside, for those of you who do enjoy my take/sense of humour, I'm becoming involved in an arts project that's designed to bring British Islam to the attention of the masses... the author's going to be launching a fundraising campaign on crowdfunder soon..

crescentmoon Thu 25-Apr-13 07:38:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

crescentmoon Thu 25-Apr-13 07:46:54

I hear you about using English words as much as possible when speaking about religion - as for naming yur son a Scottish name as fuzzy said as LNG as it is a good name. Malay , Persian, Turkish Muslims etc all use their many common cultural names to name children they do not have to be Islamic. Suhaib web actually said why not call yur child David instead of Dawud? And Noah instead of Nuh? And John instead of Yahya? These are the English equivalents just as the Arabic names are the Arabic equivalents- those prophets were Hebrew speaking not Arab speaking but in the quran their names were 'arabised' which is why they are not used to morph new words from.

Anyway here's a link to Suhaib webb's series on 'balancing arabisation'

www.suhaibwebb.com/tag/balancing-arabization/

Within that is the article on giving children names, but sheikh Suhaib Webb is a great scholar and I really appreciate him for giving a platform to Yasmin Mogahed my favourite speaker at the moment- you can find her talks on YouTube.

ClearlyDad Thu 25-Apr-13 07:49:13

Al-Halim = The Forebearing One! Means a sense of humour is at least tolerated!

fuzzywuzzy Thu 25-Apr-13 09:36:54

Cuddled, missed prayers can be made up later, but within reason (you can't purposely skip four set of prayers and make them all up beofre night prayers), usually if one is away from home there is a very shortened version of whichever prayer is scheduled for that time.

One of the reasons for praying five times a day is to make one stop and turn to god during periods of the day, helps you remain God conscious I suppose.

I've prayed in the unlikliest of places, work common rooms, parks (my favourite), beaches, wherever. Takes five minutes max.

fuzzywuzzy Thu 25-Apr-13 09:39:57

Clearly, joking is allowed, so long as no harm is caused to others and there is no blasphemy involved.

There's a really hadith about a companion of the Prophet (saw) who was known for his practical jokes. It's too long to type out I'll link it, one of the imams tells it really well.

ClearlyDad Thu 25-Apr-13 09:49:18

How old is everyone's kids anyway? Mine's 8 months old (boy). We're Nottingham based.

crescentmoon Thu 25-Apr-13 10:05:01

Yes Al Halim The Forbearing One- that's who i was hoping for when I slept through my alarm again this morning! But when it's someone who owes me money I call on God by another of His Names instead wink.

I know for Christians 'oh God' or 'For God's sake' is taking the Lord's name in vain but in my family the religious of non religious would say 'Allah' in place of swearing etc you miss the bus 'Allah!', your team loses the match 'Allah!' (and clutching your head too!), drop a plate 'Allah!' (As you step back from the broken pieces), touch something hot 'Allah!', when somebody says something foolish or exasperating 'Allah!'.

fuzzywuzzy Thu 25-Apr-13 11:08:01

Crescent, when we suffer a setback we say the prayer often said on hearing of a death;
'Surely to Allah we belong to him we must return' Altho mostly its just 'Inna lillah !!!' 'surely to Allah we belong', happens regularly during the school run missed bus scenario....we could really just get up slightly earlier, but I like to live dnagerously!

Clearly, I have two girls 10 and 8.5.

CoteDAzur Thu 25-Apr-13 13:45:17

""innate knowledge" (fitra for all the Arabic fans out there). Fitra explains lots of stuff... it explains why people are so shocked by violence, because deep down inside you "know" it's wrong"

Or, more likely, we are shocked by violence because we can imagine it happening to us or our loved ones and how horrible that would be.

"same with lots of the ethical/moral "gut feelings" we tend to have"

I doubt that very much, not least because (1) morals change over time and (2) they vary across different cultures.

We find cannibalism repulsive, but there are and have been cultures of people who practice it regularly. Homosexuality used to be something they burned or people for, but these days it's quite OK. I don't know how you can support this allegation that there is a set of unchanging "innate" set of morals that all humans share.

"Interestingly it fills the niche in Arabic philosophical thought occupied by Occam's razor and other such tests and goes some way to explain the gradual shift in global religious practices from polytheism (pick an ancient civilization) to monotheism. "

I don't see how this sentence follows the one above, claiming that there is a set of innate morals in all humans, whenever/wherever they are/were born.

But anyway...

What is more interesting is how you feel about the more recent shift in global religious practices - from monotheism towards agnosticism and atheism.

What does that say about your belief in unchanging inner morals and ethics?

crescentmoon Thu 25-Apr-13 14:29:59

but isnt that the argument also of people who say 'there is no need for a morality from above' though cote? the word fitra/ inner knowledge does not mean complete but it means inclined? or that is how i have understood it.

crescentmoon Thu 25-Apr-13 14:36:36

"more recent shift in global religious practices - from monotheism towards agnosticism and atheism."

isnt that more of a western trend? i thought religious practise was up on the whole, not just for islam but other religions in other parts of the world?

CoteDAzur Thu 25-Apr-13 14:46:27

" isnt that the argument also of people who say 'there is no need for a morality from above' "

I haven't heard any such argument.

Personally, the one time I said "there is no need for morality from above..." I finished that sentence with "... because our parents do a good enough job of teaching us right from wrong". I was about 12 and this was to my poor long-suffering RE teacher smile

If asked these days, I wouldn't even bother with whether or not there is a "need". I would say that there just isn't any set of morals that people are & always were born with. As I've said before:

(1) Morals have changed over time

and

(2) Morals vary between cultures of even the same time

Therefore, there is no "innate knowledge" of unchanging morals.

CoteDAzur Thu 25-Apr-13 15:01:51

"i thought religious practise was up on the whole, not just for islam but other religions in other parts of the world?"

Think again smile

Here is a large scale Gallup worldwide, which shows a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59%, 23% saying they are not religious, while 13% self-identify as atheist. This is a 9% decrease for those claiming to be religious and a 3% increase for those saying they are atheists.

It doesn't look like religious practice is increasing globally at all.

crescentmoon Thu 25-Apr-13 15:30:22

and were your parents born with that? was it internal/innate or external influence/input as it was for you?

thats a very interesting poll, iv just read through it. i wonder what it would look like if it was muslim specific only, as i think the results of agnosticism/atheism from non muslim countries - including non monotheistic (China, Japan) as well as monotheistic - varying very widely from muslim countries. between western christian, african christian s. american christian etc the results are also very different.

CoteDAzur Thu 25-Apr-13 15:46:30

"and were your parents born with that?"

They wouldn't have to, because their parents would have taught them about right and wrong.

I would actually be surprised to hear that any parent would believe children are born with moral values. Haven't all of us had to tell them over and over again that they shouldn't snatch, hit, or otherwise hurt others, especially those smaller than them? Do any of you really believe that your children were born knowing all that, plus that they shouldn't lower their knickers and show their private parts to the world? (ClearlyDad - Give it time, you will learn, too smile)

"i wonder what it would look like if it was muslim specific only"

I wouldn't be surprised if poll results are slightly skewed towards religiousity in Muslim countries, where people would be used to representing themselves as more religious than they actually are, due to social stigma.

I was happy to see that 73% of Turks say they are "not religious", though.

CoteDAzur Thu 25-Apr-13 15:55:55

Also re parents, morals, etc - Due to tremendous changes in urbanization & education, there is a huge difference in the morals of my grandparents (low education, born & grew up in small villages, conservative upbringing), my parents (university education, grew up in cities, but still conservative upbringing), and myself (higher university education, grew up in cities, liberal upbringing).

My grandparents were very religious - prayed 5 times a day, fasted, etc.

My parents are non-religious - one has a vague belief in God but does no praying that I've ever seen except at funerals, the other is agnostic

Myself - Lifetime agnostic/atheist

Note that urbanisation, higher education, and economic prosperity have led to lower religiosity. This is not a a quirk in my family but a correlation that is observed everywhere. (I am not saying there are no educated rich religious people, but that this is a general trend that is well recognised)

crescentmoon Thu 25-Apr-13 16:48:38

Ha and i would say the results were skewed by the G8 countries grin. As for social pressure i would say its quite odd/unfashionable to be religious or belong to a monotheistic faith in the west so there's peer pressure not to speak or be seen as religious.
and non religious can mean
can't be bothered/dont believe its necessary/don't have the willpower/'later when I an old/retire.
It's not the Same as atheism/ agnosticism. there are many non practising muslims just as practising majority opinion doesn't mean majority practise.

It's interesting about the changes in your family- in some families it's the opposite:younger generation more practising than the older.

nailak Thu 25-Apr-13 17:47:25

I would say that although there has been an increase in secularisation there has also been an increase in spirituality. Part of the result of the consumer societies that we live in spreads to the religious domain, people are free to choose their religion or spirituality and how they wish to intepret and practice this. So although many wouldnt call themselves religious that does not mean they do not believe in spirituality.

I have friends who cover and pray when they can who wouldnt call themselves religious.

As for the correlation between urbanisation education and lower religiosity, Has anyone got the stats for the percentage of Muslim reverts who revert while in University? or the percentage of non practicing Muslims who start practicing while in University?

Doesnt the success of ISOCs in top London Unis demonstrate the presence of religion within those who access higher education?

I would also agree with crescent that in the families I know it is not the uneducated parents from towns and villages who are trying to involve themselves in learning and practicing Islam, it is their kids who were born in London, university educated, living a decent lifestyle.

CoteDAzur Thu 25-Apr-13 17:53:50

I didn't mean "skewed" as in "messed up the global average". I meant that many of the people polled probably didn't say exactly what they thought on the subject.

In G8 countries, people are used to giving their honest thoughts on this subject. It is not the same in most (all?) Muslim countries. This is not about a vague worry about being fashionable or not, it is about whether or not you will have villagers with pitchforks at your door one night. (Slightly exaggerating here for effect, but you see what I mean smile)

Even in my Muslim country where the vast majority says they are not religious (possibly unique in the Muslim world) only 3% have called themselves atheist. I am sure that is because of the stigma, that many have preferred to say "not religious" than "I don't believe in God".

"in some families it's the opposite:younger generation more practising than the older"

Yes, there seems to be a reactionary effect to liberal non-religious parents, which I am aware and quite wary of.

CoteDAzur Thu 25-Apr-13 18:04:18

"although many wouldnt call themselves religious that does not mean they do not believe in spirituality"

Yes, that is quite common in the Christian world, where quite a few people born to Christian parents have gone into other spiritual practices like Wicca, etc.

I have never seen that in the Muslim world, except if you are talking about belief in astrology etc. Ime, people of Muslim heritage either follow Islam (or rarely, convert to another religion "of the book" and follow that) , or just not call themselves "spiritual" in the religious sense. I have never seen or heard of a person born to Muslim parents, who then went on to call herself a white witch or whatever.

"I have friends who cover and pray when they can who wouldnt call themselves religious"

Muslims? How do they not consider themselves religious when they are praying to Allah in Arabic, quoting verses of the Quran? shock

"Has anyone got the stats for the percentage of Muslim reverts who revert while in University?"

I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few. Just like in the army or prison, when people congregate in close quarters for several years, there is significant exchange of ideas. The university I went to was known for being a communist hotbed and many of my classmates were "converted" to this worldview.

Anyway, the negative correlation between education and religiosity is very well researched and documented, if you are interested to find out more.

" it is not the uneducated parents from towns and villages who are trying to involve themselves in learning and practicing Islam, it is their kids who were born in London, university educated, living a decent lifestyle"

2nd or 3rd generation immigrants trying to get back to their roots & showing interest in religion is also a well documented phenomenon.

In general, however, you will find that as education and living standards in a given area increase over decades, religiosity decreases. On top of the global decrease in religiosity that we have already talked about.

fuzzywuzzy Thu 25-Apr-13 18:45:40

The word 'religious' has slightly different connotations amongst Muslims I think.

You call yourself religious your holding yourself up to a level of piety aren't you?

I don't think I'm particularly religious, my sister thinks I'm the muslim equivalent of a nun, but then she's comparing herself ot me, we both practice Islam at a basic levle according to our knowledge of it!!!

I've never met a Muslim who has chosen wicca over islam either, but then we have magic and the evil eye and jin and shaiateen in islam and it's considered an alignment of that isn't it?

fuzzywuzzy Thu 25-Apr-13 18:48:22

I'd reckon as wealth increases, the level of religiosity decreases.

Harships make one turn to their God and ask for help.

Wealth makes you throw money at your problems.

crescentmoon Thu 25-Apr-13 18:52:46

"I have never seen or heard of a person born to Muslim parents, who then went on to call herself a white witch or whatever."

it is because of the shahadah, first negation then affirmation.

La Illaha Illallah,

There is no God (negation)

Except Allah, the One God (affirmation)

i often think if my own children dont end up muslim they will be atheist because they will at least have taken away from me the negation of any Gods worthy of worship - which is what you cote have taken from your upbringing - but not the belief in the monotheistic God. thats why i talk to my kids about Abraham (as) alot and his searching and turning towards God.

crescentmoon Thu 25-Apr-13 18:55:04

(thats why some people say atheism is halfway to being muslim!)

CoteDAzur Thu 25-Apr-13 21:32:34

More like Islam is half way to atheism - you have already rejected all the other deities and spiritual beliefs. Only one deity left to go wink

nailak Fri 26-Apr-13 01:12:31

I know plenty of Muslims who have family members who do spiritual magic stuff, is called hassad or jadu and the following of pirs etc is a spiritual thing that salafis wahhabis would disagree is from Islam.

Basically there are significant exceptions to the rules you are quoting. It is also well documented that the Islamic revival bucks the secular trend, I'm not gonna get my course books out now, but maybe tomorrow!

There are also interesting cases such as Israel which is a secular state yet based on religious idealogies, many may not consider themselves religious yet they believe in the right of the Jews to the land based on biblical concepts.

crescentmoon Fri 26-Apr-13 05:38:59

Your last point had me grinning cote - we shall see who is halfway to what.

Good point naila about Israel. I often wonder where the atheists were then when that was going on. I think it was less to do with religion and more about assuaging Europe's guilt over the Holocaust and ancient anti semitism - only it was decided the Palestinian should atone for the 6million Jews dead and lose their land not Germany give up a chunk of theirs.

As for evil eye hasad etc yes there are people who believe in amulets , hand of Fatima, etc. my parents weren't all that bothered by it but we had some relatives we would only tell our bad news too never good news! and i still find myself doing that as an adult with my in laws some people. grin I also half think there is a jinn in my house that is eating socks because its always one brother of each pair ever going missing. And i have found it moves with me into the washing machine of every house iv ever lived in!

(Or it could be I'm very disorganised yes yes I should consider that too alrite)

fuzzy I was late for the bus yday going home and tried out 'innalalillah' 'from God we came' - it certainly puts things in perspective. Better than saying £!# !!!!!! seeing the bus drive off. I also feel I'm constantly treading water with regards to practise *fuzzy but my cousins would call me the religious one. Or, more often, 'I thought you were supposed to be the religious one!?' Lol.

crescentmoon Fri 26-Apr-13 06:28:40

Wrt the negation and affirmation of the muslim declaration of faith- i respect different elements in Judaism and Christianity because they are the people of the book, they came first and i worship the God Abraham taught. i wince at all the rules in judaism but saying that i trust a kosher stamp more than a halal stamp- though iv mainly given up meat now. i also respect those polytheistic religions that teach about actions having consequences eg Hinduism/ Buddhism. though their focus is about reincarnation its their self discipline I admire.

Not saying self discipline is the preserve of religions either before cote gets her back up.

crescentmoon Sat 27-Apr-13 08:52:56

salams all. clearlydad you mentioned something about comic books, have you heard about the 99 series? a muslim comic book series about young superheroes - boys and girls - based on the 99 attributes of God. apparently its very successful - the series partnered with DC Comics the Justice League and has just started animated shows last month. have a read through the website! fuzzy i think your girls would enjoy it, naila, you too.

www.the99.org/

NewPerspective Sat 27-Apr-13 21:23:33

The 99 series is meant to be pretty cool... I've read about it on the internet, but never known where to get hold of the actual comics.

nailak Sat 27-Apr-13 21:50:23

I have never hears of it before crescent! it looks great but it feels a bit weird, giving Allah's attributes to people....

crescentmoon Sun 28-Apr-13 09:35:17

yeah i thought so too naila but we do it often though. you know that title people who memorise the whole Quran get? Hafiz? well actually its from one of the 99 names of God - Al Hafiz - the Preserver. we confuse the title 'someone who has memorised the quran by heart' with its linguistic meaning which is 'preserver'.

my DD once complained that her two brothers had prophet's names (both from the Old Testament) but she didnt have one. and i told her that her name was from one of the names of God and it was as special! iv seen lots of girls names like that: the name Rahma from Ar Rahman (The Most Gracious), the name Rahima from Ar Rahim (the Most Merciful), the name Salama from As Salam (the Giver of Peace), Aziza from Al Aziz (the Mighty), Latifa from Al Latif (the Gentle), Halima from Al Halim (the Forbearing), Adila from al Adl (the Just) and so on.

off the top of my head i couldnt think of any boy's names that didnt first begin with Abd: Abdullah (servant of God), Abdurrahman (servant of the most Merciful), Abdulhalim, abdussalam, abdullatif, abdulhalim etc... the only boys name i could think of used without the Abd at the begin is Malik from Al Malik (the King), i think that using one of the 99 is fine as long as the Al is not put in front of the name.

iv tried to watch a few clips of the cartoon on youtube, apparently the first few episodes is on yahoo maktoub but i wasnt able to watch from my pc.

if dear lost is reading please check your private messages!

crescentmoon Sun 28-Apr-13 09:52:06

ok heres a thing thats been bothering me recently,

my kids will eat vegetables at my mums house, great big pieces of broccoli, cauliflower, peas, carrots, etc with curry or rice. but they wont eat what i make even if i use the SAME recipes - how do i get them to eat more vegetables? i actually try to dice them small to 'hide' them but my mum doesnt ever do that and they GULP her food down. what do i do?

fuzzywuzzy Sun 28-Apr-13 12:29:49

It's grandma's house they will eat her food and at friends houses whereas they'll be picky as anything at home.

How old are they? You could serve up your nomal food and refuse alternatives.

You could include them in food prep, that usually peaks an interest in consuming the food too.

Dunno what else.

I'm not comfortable with that comic either, its giving the attributes of Allah to the characters, when we name our children or title a person for example Hafiz, we are calling them Hufadh-e-quran the preservers of the Quran, not generally the preserver of everything. Or in the hope they will manifest the qualities of that name, we are not attributing the qualities of that name to the person. (does that make sense?).

The comics do, I'm going to steer clear I think.

crescentmoon Mon 29-Apr-13 21:49:16

Very true fuzzy they eat food at other people's houses and at grandmas they'd never try at home! I'm going to be more 'either this or you go hungry!'. Otherwise they'll be like my brothers and just want beans on toast or chips all the time in a few years!

My anjum Anand vegetarian cookbook is fab - some of the recipes are so delicious you forget there is no meat at all. There's a hadith which really spurred me 'do not allow your stomachs to become graveyards' - about eating meat. Obviously not to forbid meat entirely though one sis took it as far as that. but along the same ones as the famous hadith 'no human being ever filled a vessel worse than his stomach'.

As for the attributes I get what yu mean that we hope they manifest the qualities of that name. None of my 3 are the age yet to be interested but maybe in a short while with ds1 - even the animation series is interesting with completely different frames of references to what kids are used to. Begins with the story of the sacking of Abbasid Baghdad by the Mongols.
Fascinating period in history. They decimated the muslim lands and peoples and then the mongols themselves became muslims within 30 years. Was it the first time in history a conqueror took the religion of the people they conquered or was that with the pagan Romans and Christianity? I'm not sure of which came before which in the latter case.

hope all is well inshaallah for everyone. I haven't been to dhikr or mawlid for a few weeks with one thing and another so I'm hoping to make both this week for an emaan boost. I feel I'm slipping on a few things. Www.deenport.com is a good website to find events/talks/hadras in one's area. Whenever we move DH tracks down mosques whereas I always start looking for local tariqahs (sufi orders) and where they're based. Iv never committed to one mainly for logistics reasons but I'm leaning towards one now alhamdulliah and I'm excited about taking the step.

CoteDAzur Mon 06-May-13 14:56:52

You have gone and killed the tread with all this food talk smile

Don't you have anything controversial to say? Even stuff you don't think is controversial will probably do wink

nailak Mon 06-May-13 16:36:48
crescentmoon Tue 07-May-13 09:26:33

Good article naila thanks for that. Along the same lines as this too.

jezebel.com/5969023/have-you-noticed-that-white-dudes-keep-mass-murdering-people

When its from its own demographic the media will look for other causes: mental illness/ stress especially in the case of family annihilators: those men who kill their wife and children and then commit suicide. 'What drove him to it?', 'he snapped' , when it is from another ethnicity then it is blamed as something intrinsic to their race/culture/religion.
The article you posted had me blinking a few times: its strange to read it aimed at another group!

As for the hijabi on the guitar? Cringe! I don't know why!

anyway I'd love to know what you all think- do we apply the laws of diya amongst ourselves or are they part of the body of fiqh that require a qadi and a court to decide.

crescentmoon Tue 07-May-13 09:51:54

I ask because extended family were in such a situation and ended up paying diya-which my older brother also contributed to - without any legal involvement just between the victims family( at their demand) and them. It was a hefty amount and I wondered even fiqh wise if it was allowed to be demanded of our side.

nailak Tue 07-May-13 18:20:35

what is diya? blood money?

I think that the criminal rulings require a judge to sentence, but I am not sure, I cannot see the harm in that if you have wronged someone you give them compensation according to shariah without a qaadi, however if you extropolate that to other situations and punishments there could be serious repurcussions.

CoteDAzur Tue 07-May-13 18:40:06

On a lighter note, I saw something and thought you would enjoy it. Everyone please look at my pictures grin

crescentmoon Tue 07-May-13 20:46:03

very true about extrapolation because of those kangaroo courts in countries and communities that apply criminal rulings without fiqh knowledge, civil authority or basic justice. e.g those tribal elders in pakistan or the militia in northern mali driven out recently

as for diya, not going into too much detail but a relative of mine caused an accident that killed another person whilst abroad visiting relatives.the family of the man who died were muslim and came to our relatives directly and said they wanted diya rather than prison as they were very poor and the man killed had been the only one with a job supporting lots of them. knowing my relative had come from the west they set a very steep price and for that his siblings and a few other cousins helped him put together the money to pay. the surprising thing was that it was led by my relatives who are not religious - they dont pray, keep halal, etc - but they had enough taqwa and respect for silat ur rahm to do that even though it was not legally enforceable either in the country it happened in nor in their countries they were paying from. one of them even put off his wedding until this year to be able to contribute. but there was no qadhi, no representatives, no scholars/imams involved - just sorted out between 2 families. i felt uncomfortable with it for that reason though it was their right to compensation in fiqh terms.

i was talking to one sister who had a similar situation in her family and she said that in her parents country diya was important to replace the very strong cultural blood feuds where if someone caused the death of another person then their family would go after any relative of the guilty person's family, who would then go after a relative of the victims family and it would turn into a cycle of violence. so in cases of manslaughter or murder elders would get involved and set diya and enforce it from the relatives of the guilty party to settle things quickly before things would escalate if they felt the revenge taken was disproportionate to the original offence.

nailak Tue 07-May-13 21:06:58

cote that is so ridiculous it has me laughing out loud!

crescent i understand the wisdom behind diya, and I think that this outcome is better over all rather then prison, for both parties. I don't know if situations like this require imam, i mean contracts such as nikkah and talaaq dont?

CoteDAzur Tue 07-May-13 21:14:49

nailak - I know grin

It doesn't translate very well, though. The confusion is more plausible in Turkish where it is between raket (raquette) and rekat (rakat).

crescentmoon Tue 07-May-13 21:18:08

ok on a lighter note funny cartoon cote. 2 rackets instead of 2 rakahs ha.

i have a funny joke to tell about a convert. a man was being taught how to pray and was told at the end he must give the Taslim to the Kiraman Katibeen on either side of his shoulders. he said who/ what are they? they told him the one on the right shoulder records all the good acts and words and the one on the left shoulder records all the bad acts and words. when the men got up to do the congregational prayer he went through it with them but after it ended said 'i said salam alaikum to my right but i ignored the enemy on my left!'.

another funny one: a tribe in africa had christian missionaries and muslim 'callers' come to them at the same time. they listened to them and said 'both of them are good which one to follow?'. they decided on a show of hands and when it came to it there was an even split. they said the ones who wanted to keep their second wives took Islam and the ones who wanted to keep drinking alcohol took Christianity and the tribe went half/ half based on that! grin.

crescentmoon Tue 07-May-13 21:21:14

(just looked at the post i made before the joke one - the last sentence is extremely long sorry!)

crescentmoon Wed 08-May-13 12:11:28

do they have such a thing in Turkey cote or had you heard of it? when a crime is committed is it against the state or against the victim? if a family wishes to forgive or seek a non prison settlement for in a case involving murder/manslaughter would the state still prosecute or is the final word with them?

CoteDAzur Wed 08-May-13 12:19:47

Crime is against the victim but the state would still prosecute even if the victim's family is bribed or intimidated into silence. As is the case in all Western law, I believe.

crescentmoon Wed 08-May-13 12:50:46

thats the worry isnt it - can the family be intimidated. do you consider the diya a bribe or a compensation for the loss of that family member? for us it was by being compelled but it was either cough up or see our relative languish in an awful prison in that country. as for forgiveness, for the family itself to say 'forgive' is one thing but when it is someone else ordering them to forgive thats a completely different case.

CoteDAzur Wed 08-May-13 21:48:11

The idea sits wrong with me for a variety of reasons:

- Money can't "compensate" for the loss of a loved one. The very idea is absurd and offensive.
- It creates a two-tier system where the rich don't get punished for major crimes like murder.
- It opens the system to intimidation and bribery

nailak Wed 08-May-13 23:08:23

going to jail cant compensate either, but money is more useful to a family whose breadwinner has been taken away and in a society without benefits can be difference between life and death

MareeyaDolores Thu 09-May-13 00:41:36
crescentmoon Thu 09-May-13 08:10:33

thanks mareeya, i have watched programmes on that same type of initiative and its helped me to think through cotes points.

in turkey is the emphasis in criminal law about what laws have been broken? who did it? and what does the offender deserve? or is it about who has been harmed? what are their needs? whose obligations are these? does diya mean they have escaped punishment or is it also not a punishment itself? its often set so high that relatives need to be involved it cannot be met by one individual alone. do you think it serves as a deterrent effect more than the drawbacks you said could result? in that case there are far more cases witnesses to crimes being bribed or intimidated not to appear in court. in our case there wasnt a wrangle about who was responsible - he was driving the car - the focus was about what did that family consider justice.

in the UK victims of violent crime can be awarded a payment from the criminal in lots of cases see here compensation for victioms by the court or receive a payment from the state.

in the latter case victims of violent crime can receive criminal injuries compensation from the government but its called "an expression of public sympathy for innocent victims of violent crime." for people on law incomes whose injuries are not enough to receive that compensation then they can apply for the the Hardship Fund. so there is an element of financial compensation for people who have been the victims of crime. but not their relatives to receive in cases of death unless they directly sue and take it to court.

iv heard of some people, even if they are poor, who will not take diya and instead ask for prison or even worse for the perpetrator. this is what happens in my friend's country Yemen. that is their right religiously and they cant be compelled or guilted into forgiving or taking diya otherwise. i dont know if i would be like that myself.

and there is the issue of does the whole family agree?

got to go to work today but il be on later tonight.

CoteDAzur Thu 09-May-13 14:03:15

"in the UK victims of violent crime can be awarded a payment from the criminal in lots of cases"

Like in most places, I would imagine, but this payment does not let the criminal get away without a jail sentence. You get the punishment the law says you get for the crime, and on top of that, you pay for the damage, loss in earnings, etc that you have caused.

"in turkey..."

Don't get me started about the travesty that legal system has become in Turkey in recent years. In any case, it doesn't have diyya and I not think of a word that would be its equivalent in Turkish.

"is the emphasis in criminal law about what laws have been broken? who did it? and what does the offender deserve?"

I believe this is what all Western law is about, yes.

"or is it about who has been harmed? what are their needs? whose obligations are these?"

Where is law about any of that? I'm guessing that you didn't go about finding out exactly who was harmed by that man's death, but just gave the money to a family member. What about his best friend who maybe can't get over his death, the company he was working at where maybe he was a key man and they struggled after his death? Did he have a mistress who loved him? She needs a man to keep her warm at night and whose obligation is it to find her another man now?

"does diya mean they have escaped punishment or is it also not a punishment itself?"

Well, he escaped prison for life and is now out living his life while the man he killed is dead and buried, so yes, we can safely say that he has escaped punishment by buying it off.

"witnesses to crimes being bribed or intimidated not to appear in court"

There is something called forensic science these days, that has largely diminished the weight of unreliable eye witnesses.

Not that it's even relevant. This isn't about identification of the criminal, it is about what to do to him once he has been identified and found guilty. In a diyya system the suspect can also refuse responsibility and then you would still need eye witnesses, forensics etc.

crescentmoon Fri 10-May-13 04:26:29

The family as a group approached our relatives not just one member. And it has to be the group because it has to satisfy all members so that one doesn't off and seek retribution/vengeance. It is made after accepting guilt/being found guilty- not diya is in place of being found guilty.
In the UK my relative wouldn't have automatically even have had a prison sentence for causing death in a car accident. There are many cases of drivers who had caused deaths being given community orders in place of a prison sentence. It would have needed to go to court, with the state paying for the defence lawyers and also it being upon the prosecution's lawyers to prove death by dangerous driving or death by careless driving. If anyone followed the case of the drivers of the car that killed haroon jahan and the two other brothers in Birmingham during the summer 2011. After the trial got under way a year later- which is not atypical of such cases- they eventually walked free. in this case the man pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving and had his driving license banned - no prison sentence. m.buryfreepress.co.uk/news/crime-and-courts/barningham-man-pleads-guilty-to-causing-death-by-careless-driving-1-4985009. In the country where it occurred, yu might languish in prison for years while waiting for your case to come up- unless you pay to speed it up. And then the court orders costs to be paid to itself during the trial as well as being imprisoned so the accused is punished twice.

As for forensic science of course that all comes in wen someone is saying 'I am not guilty' whereas the first condition of diya is accepting guilt for the crime. It's maybe- would like to now from anyone who knows the law- like an out of court settlement which often is negotiated by third parties. Our relative admitted guilt for the death and our family even to my older brother contributed to the compensation.
Interesting yu mention non relatives- it's the wider community also that need to see justice and that the victim's death or even injury (diya is also for injuries not just death/murder) is not taken lightly or for nothing. Though they do not benefit financially there is also community satisfaction of seeing the victims dependants provided for, not brought to destitution, if there were debts owed by the victim that they can be paid etc. is the community seeking justice and the state seeking justice the same thing?

it can be controversial, the father of murdered lucie Blackman accepted nearly half a million pounds compensation - condolence money- for her murder from the murderer's side (his best friend) in Japan but then her mother and other family were enraged when the accused was subsequently found not guilty in the trial. The father was accused of being a judas by lucies mother as he took the money without conferring with the rest of the family but it was a biblical reference.in the bible judas accepted the silver in return for giving up Jesus to the authorities and that was called blood money. So the translation of the Muslim term to a person with a Christian or biblical background may bring to mind that negative event whereas the contexts and meanings are different.

in Islam Diya is about restitution and is a form of restorative justice. Theres a hadith where Muhammad (pbuh) said that diya has come to replace retaliation. Previous to that the law was an eye for an eye, life for life death sentence etc but then the quran introduced diya as one of the options for the victim or their family as well as pardoning or asking the state to punish In terms of eg applying the death penalty or prison. it is not based on the accusers ability to pay or timescale- as is considered during awardig of compensation n the Uk- but on the needs of the victim. It's an option you cannot compel the victims side to forgive nor to accept diya if they want a harsher punishment. So a rich person can still be deterred from committing crime involving injury or death as diya exists alongside other harsher punishments- just as much as a poor person may be pardoned too.
My relative himself didn't have much money, but with his brothers and cousins including my older brother he was able to stump up the cash. If you were well off but your family wouldn't stand by you it's still not possible to pay diya. But then other factors like religious injunctions or honour/shame mechanisms would fall in.

Anyway my thoughts cote.

naila saw your thread on AIbU about receiving notice its a bummer sis I'm sorry about you having to move house. Were in same situation abit in that we now might have to move - im waiting for news (and a miracle) next month though. If i leave where i live now i dont thnk my heart can take it i love my neighbours and community, the kid's school, the house im in. and the new place is still further away from my family so im struggling abit to have tawakkul allallah. Allah make it easy for you and me ameen.

i took hardlys advice about joining about joining and ansar finance www.ansarfinance.com/ though their website is under construction it was alot more detailed during the last thread! So we're hoping to be able to take out interest free loans by the end of this year beginning of next year. They have stopped giving out mortgages though as they have a huge waiting list and need a bigger pot but I think for home deposits and lower they can do.

As for the halal thread on AIBU, did anyone catch the news about Leicester school 'halal' burgers having pork in them?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pork-found-in-halal-lamb-burgers-supplied-to-leicester-schools-8609417.html

I have less and less trust in the whole industry tbh. Food has to be halal, tayyib, have Barakah be pure. dont think there is barakah in the food we eat. Iv linked before but other places about these two organic halal farms in the UK

www.willowbrookorganic.org/ in Oxford- personal experience there its lovely and the brother and sister that run it are really inspiring.

And Abraham Natural produce organic halal farm in Somerset:

www.organic-halal-meat.com/index.php

If yu live close to either you can go and buy your meat. I know its expensive and very far for many but its good UK Muslims are thinking about the whole Sunnah of halal not just the last part of the process.

crescentmoon Fri 10-May-13 04:32:03

Goodness my last post looks ginormous on phone screen sorry for typos / crap grammar etc. ma asalama! (Come on get posting even if its just the inconsequentials! The last thread went from heavy to light to mundane to esoteric lets get this thread going too! hardly have you come back yet? Habibti this was your thread to begin with lol!)

crescentmoon Fri 10-May-13 04:40:03

Here's the chapter in the 'fiqh of medicine' upon diya and liability in the case of medical malpractice.

www.bogvaerker.dk/images/Fiqhofmedicine.pdf

Very important in the early Muslim community and interesting they had early medical defence unions hundreds of years ago.

Sweetsandchocolate Fri 10-May-13 21:24:02

Salams to you all. I have a question regarding breastfeeding - I'm going to a big Bengali wedding on Sunday, I'm an English convert and my DH is Bengali, and its his cousin's wedding so there will be a lot of people there we haven't seen in yonks. We will have to travel about an hour and a half to get to the wedding and will be taking our 3 DC, youngest is 5 weeks old and he is on and off the boob 2 hourly, if I'm lucky. I don't want to wear a sari because I'm hopeless at fixing it so will be wearing salwar kameez, the long heavily embroidered sequinned kind that will have to be virtually taken off to bf. my question - can I bf in the main wedding hall if my DH covers me with a big scarf? I don't want to go all that way and end up spending most of it in the toilets feeding iykwim!

MareeyaDolores Fri 10-May-13 22:00:11

What about a lehenga choli (skirt kameez)? The blouse doesn't need to be this skimpy, actually the tight sari blouses are a nightmare for feeding anyway.

Tbh, I'd go with the giant scarf and get a tailor to adapt the kameez unless its a family heirloom.

That said, I'm a Catholic lurker, so best get some Islamc advice too, as if i get it wrong youll be blush or you might end up feeding in the loo at short notice confused

MareeyaDolores Fri 10-May-13 22:01:24

Shame it's not a 'one hall for the ladies' wedding really, would be easier.

Sweetsandchocolate Fri 10-May-13 23:03:38

Thanks Mareeya. Unfortunately I haven't got time (or energy with a newborn lol) to get an outfit for Sunday, and the only lengha I have doesn't fit my post pregnancy shape (sigh). There may be a separate hall for ladies, that's a possibility. If there's not, I'm not sure about being allowed to bf in public areas. I've asked some Muslim friends, they said I shouldn't be going anywhere with such a young baby and should stay at home to rest, so that didn't help me much!

MareeyaDolores Fri 10-May-13 23:37:04

Can you open up the side seams of the kameez? Bit of Velcro, poppers, or even just a co-ordinating vest underneath?

MareeyaDolores Fri 10-May-13 23:41:28

If your mum was Bengali shed have had a big row with mil about 'not looking after you properly' and what will people think of you at any religious event so close to 'first 40 days'.

MareeyaDolores Fri 10-May-13 23:45:17

Can you open up the side seams of the kameez? Bit of Velcro, poppers, or even just a co-ordinating vest underneath?

<brainwave> Bengali breastfeeding helpline. Dont panic, Bilingual staff grin

crescentmoon Fri 10-May-13 23:47:45

this is going to be about bengali culture more than anything else sweetsandchocolate! it depends whats normal for them. in the Middle East even niqabi women can breastfeed in public its seen as a normal thing completely separate to other thing, but its about what they think is unusual.

but agree with mareeya get a new outfit. are you going to lift the whole top of the shalwar up to breastfeed? thats acres of fabric! wear a vest top underneath to cover your stomach then, not for modesty as much as your comfort!

mareeya you must be well acquainted with muslim culture to know the significance of the first 40 days! i put my feet up during that whole time

Sweetsandchocolate Sat 11-May-13 00:22:01

Crescent, that's a good idea, I'll wear a vest, I hadn't thought of that.

Mareeya I have zero tailoring skills. And I live nowhere near Asian clothes shops. I've got an Englsh wedding in a few weeks and I've already bought a maxi dress with an elasticated top part (wearing with cardigan and scarf of course) but so easy to discreetly bf.

My mil passed away couple of years ago, but she'd prob have said for me to bottle feed at the wedding! She loved a good party.

Thanks for your help. I'll let you know how I get on!

nailak Sat 11-May-13 02:07:41

Think if you ate discrete at the back no one will mind,

Sweetsandchocolate Sat 11-May-13 11:06:25

Thanks Nailak. I just phoned the venue, it's on the 2nd floor with a special access only lift and they don't know if its going to be segregated or not. My DH is saying you don't take prams to a wedding, I have to hold baby. I'm getting more stressed by the minute now! I have to sit for 3 or 4 hours holding baby? Really? I think everything's pointing at me not going. Can't use the 40 day thing, as he'll be 42 days lol

nailak Sat 11-May-13 12:48:50

I think people with young kids do take prams or car seats otherwise where would the babies sleep! If it is segregated makes it harder for you as how will you eat and stuff!

MareeyaDolores Sat 11-May-13 13:14:03

Don't take prams? Rubbish! And I say that as a baby-wearing co-sleeping ecological-breastfeeding-for-family-spacing, sling-obsessed nutcase grin With two others to chase after, having no-where to put a sleeping baby trumps any cultural sensitivity considerations!

This sounds to me like your dh assuming that being a Bengali male makes him an expert on Bengali women and their thought processes. A mistake common to men of all cultures grin wink. Ring the helpline, or the mosque local to the wedding, or a handy cousin, and ask them?

MareeyaDolores Sat 11-May-13 13:57:57

crescent, when I was post-natally struggling along with a newborn and two big dc, it was (by and large) the most elderly, traditionally dressed, obviously Muslim gentleman who would hold doors, offer a seat on the bus etc. I think they were horrified at how the UK treats mothers.

MareeyaDolores Sat 11-May-13 13:59:30

actually, come to think of it, maybe one of them will be at the wedding and help OP out grin

nailak Sun 12-May-13 01:48:59

I sure everyone will be wanting to help out! But sometimes can get too much for baby!

crescentmoon Sun 12-May-13 10:59:02

if you cant get a pram in take the car seat up with you. last year i wnt to a late night wedding and ds2 fell asleep early on. no buggy or car seat but as i was sitting in a corner i put my coat and abayah on the floor and put him down and covered him up with another coat. he slept through the whole wedding and i had a great time. but one other lady was appalled id put him on the floor and refused to leave his side so i was getting up and joining in the fun and she was saying 'someone has to stay and keep an eye on him' lol. i didnt know her well but she was my mum's friend so i didnt feel too criticised!

"baby-wearing co-sleeping ecological-breastfeeding-for-family-spacing, sling-obsessed nutcase"

lol mareeya, loved that ha. i was very routine obsessed with first two dc, in their own cots, breastfed at set intervals, definitely not baby wearing. but when ds3 came along i changed and breastfed on demand, carried him in a sling until he was 7 months before using the buggy, he co slept and breastfed until nearly 18 months, that child told us we didnt tell him!

LostAndNeverFound Mon 13-May-13 06:55:11

Salaam all, how are you all doing?

Sweets, I hope the wedding went ok, what did you do in the end? Wish I saw this earlier as a couple of Asian ladies I know had a zip tailored in under each boob so all they have to do is unzip and latch baby on very discreetly. I too have a nearly 5 week old breast feeding 2 hourly around the clock! It's tiring but satisfying.

Nailak I haven't seen your thread in aibu but from what crescent said your landlord has given you notice? Same here. We've got under 2 months to find somewhere to live which is virtually impossible as we don't have a deposit big enough for another rented house. The council said they may have to place us in temporary accommodation until they find us a house sad.

Crescent I just wanted to say thank you again smile.

I've only read the last page of this thread, I'll catch up on it today hopefully.

Sweetsandchocolate Mon 13-May-13 22:02:48

Salaam all. The wedding went really well. I put my foot down and took the pram, it was brilliant for changing his nappies (and clothes when he pooed all over his little outfits twice!) and meant he had a little kick around when everyone was eating. As for bf, I took a large prayer scarf, went to a chair by a wall and asked for help from relatives to cover me up so I could lift my entire salwar kameez up. Difficult but managed. Helped that the hall was informally segregated. Overall, a success and I had a good time. Thank you for all your support, it really helped thanks smile

crescentmoon Wed 15-May-13 08:09:54

That sounds great chocolate really glad that worked for you. Great your in laws helped too- mashaallah. I love going to weddings it's lovely to be invited to share in the happiness and positivity of that special day. All of my friends my age have gotten married now, ditto my siblings friends. but the younger cousins and siblings are getting married so there's a new generation of weddings to go to now too! It helps that with invitations it's always to '... And family.'

Iv had a funny dilemma these days sisters. I think my colleagues must think im a weirdo as one of them lives very close to me and keeps offering me lifts home but I keep making excuses that I'm alrite by bus. Even though the lift would get me home half hour earlier to my family- and even when the rain is pouring down. If it was a female colleague This would have been my second month of lifts and id have budgeted petrol money into my weekly spending! But it's a male colleague and I just can't shrug off that 'what would people think if they saw me' mentality. Its only started in the last few weeks. Another colleague offers 'at least let me drop u off at the bus stop' and I'm like no no don't worry thank you.i feel so sheepish seeing them drive past and waving as im walking the long route to my stop. but i would prefer the 10min walk than to take the lift and have someone see and speculate about DH's wife like that. think that's where my cultural upbringing comes out more than my religious upbringing. Anyway I think they'll get the hint soon and stop offering- it's more out of politeness now on both sides anyway. But I wonder what other sisters would do.
For me another thing is it took a while to get DH on board about my working- it became an issue after dc2 and he was just like 'why bother yourself what do you need from it?'.. So even though its a small thing I wouldn't like him to feel the subject of even a little speculation of his wife - me- being seen taking lifts from men. But looking out at this horrible rainy weather I think I'm at reason no . 675 why I need to learn to drive. When I get to reason no. 750 I think il finally do it then!

crescentmoon Wed 15-May-13 08:35:44

another thing come up recently, i wonder how you would have answered?

dc2 asked me does Allah have eyes? i said to her 'no, Allah doesnt need eyes to see'. does Allah have ears, i said to her 'no, Allah doesnt need ears to hear', does Allah have hands, i said 'no Allah doesnt need hands to make'....

and i left it with her as what my dad used to answer me 'does the shoemaker need to look like the shoe?'

but she asked DH the same questions and he said 'yes but not eyes like us' 'yes but not ears like us' 'yes but not hands like us' and we had a conversation afterwards and it was interesting because of how we had the concept of Allah in our heads. in my head its only the letters of the word Allah alif lam ha. but DH had a different concept based on the words 'the whole dominion is in His hand'.

what say you?

nailak Wed 15-May-13 11:51:25

I agree with you on the aqeedah thing, Allah is not like us, He cannot have body parts as he is without direction, and without need.

As for the lift, it really comes down to the boundaries between you and your DH that are personal to your relationship. for me some people i may say yes and some no, based on dhs experiences of me and my behaviour and what i feel could cause issues in my relationship. i might even just ask his opinion on the issue although generally i make my own decisions about what is appropriate.

although it may be diff coz i know my dh would not entertain rumours about me.

crescentmoon Thu 16-May-13 08:34:36

Salams naila! Very true about boundaries iv seen Muslim couples same level of religiosity where the lift thing wouldn't necessarily be an issue. It's more of a cultural thing than a Religious reservation.

Lady Ayesha faced down the whole city of Madinah including her husband Muhammad (pbuh) during the 'slander against her'. When she became lost for 3 days in the desert and a man found her and helped her back to Madinah. the whole city had searched for her and when they saw her ride in on camel with the man seated behind her they told Muhammad(pbuh) 'your wife has betrayed you'. i was always struck by how, even when she was vindicated by the revelation of verse verse four in surah nur, she still said 'if it was you I would have been guilty'. In other situations for other sisters I always think and cite that event and the collection of verses about those situations. But for my own situation. until marriage I used to think I was totally uncultural but now I think maybe I'm 60per cent religious 40 per cent cultural- the latter part a mixture of parents culture and the culture I grew up in.DH is maybe 20 per cent now but it rears its head unexpectedly sometimes. I call him prickly like a hedgehog for how he gets sometimes! He's far far less uptight about things than he used to be when we first got together so he's loosened up about so much compared to what his family expected. And compared to both our fathers he's completely different - he doesn't expect anything from me he wouldn't do himself. He goes to men only swimming while I go to female only, he goes- when he finds one- to a male only gym- as I go to female only gyms and classes. And that was my boundary that what he expected of me he had to do himself and he's always tended to that - if he can't find it he doesn't go.

Interesting about Allah not having direction iv never thought of that or heard it that way.

(As for the case about those men from Oxford- it's open season right now isn't it. Reading those threads yday and today iv thought about that Martin Niemoller poem en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came... And got to thinking about the increase in anti disabled/ anti benefits/ anti Eastern European/ anti traveller/ anti Christian threads and what it meant for us. Not that there weren't such threads like yesterday's two before- naila you and me have been on a fair few. But that in general, the opinions aimed at those groups shocked me and filled me with foreboding about 'If society can't have rahma/ adl for those groups then what emotion are we going to argue for'? I don't have the energy to get involved - I should have got involved on those other threads before 'they came for me' long before it got to this. but Allah forgive me I don't have the time and didnt know what to say).

crescentmoon Thu 16-May-13 08:38:26

(*i didn't have the time then and didnt know what to say on those 'anti.....' Threads about other groups)

Lost really hope baby is well- I will be joining u in a few months. I found the quran verses about great feeding tipped the balance for me when considering formula over b/f - though I couldn't go as long as 2 years!

HardlyEverHoovers Fri 17-May-13 16:24:43

Salaam everyone, I've been away for a while and just had a quick look at the thread to find there have been lots of interesting discussions I need to catch up, and also lots of new names on here. Look forward to joining in again!

crescentmoon Fri 17-May-13 19:04:04

smile Salam alaikum! welcome back hardly - I fear I keep killing your thread! glad your back to keep it going! Peace, mercy and blessings sisters.

Cuddledup Sun 19-May-13 08:13:30

Crescent re: the Oxford case - there was an interesting discussion about this case / problem on BBC R.4 Sunday programme this morning. If you listen on iPlayer the discussion was the last item on the prog.

On a separate matter - this books looks wonderful gazakitchen.com

Hope you're all well. X

nailak Sun 19-May-13 22:09:11

some people chat so much rubbish is unbelievable, crescent u did well to hide the threads!

crescentmoon Sun 19-May-13 23:18:51

Lol I hid the threads naila but it only works when I log in. Iv been on slow burn all week trying to avoid mumsnet. Its serious topics but the angle taken makes you want to batten down the hatches and go into siege mode. Every time I think I have reconciled myself to hypocrisy something sets it off. Anyway I broke and joined in!

* Cuddledup thanks I listened to that show you mentioned on iplayer. I think i agreed more with Bukhari - to me the vast majority of Pakistani men are honourable so I wouldnt even shift this to be about their ethnic community. you can legislate either legally or morally over and over but if someone has a sickness in their heart then it will come out. But the minimum of Islam is if you cannot do good for yourself, or if you cannot help but act in a way to destroy yourself, at least do not harm others.

Allah may forgive you the former but not the latter.

nailak Tue 21-May-13 19:47:37
yummytummy Tue 21-May-13 19:51:32

salaam everyone so lovely to see this on mn. hope i can join in and maybe slightly hijack thread if ok?

atm i am in a very difficult situation with my marriage my husband has been very violent towards me on several occasions and is constantly verbally abusive and nasty it is getting worse and dont know how much more i can take. police were called most recently and he was taken away but now back home.

i have told parents and inlaws and we have tried the one person from each side thing it hasnt worked. he has essentially become very very abusive and isnt likely tochange. unfortunately for me it isnt a case of just 'ltb' as there are a million cultural barriers in place and if i try to leave with kids i will be practically forced back to him. its a horrendous way to live and i know islamically he shouldnt treat a wife this way.

also my inlaws have threatened me with trying to take my kids if i try and leave and parents will disown me so if i go i will be totally alone

also my parents are convinced i should just try to be a better wife and please him etc etc but they cant see there isnt really a reason he is doing this he is just plain nasty and knows he can get away with it as all the greater family think he is the most wonderful creature on the planet yet once the door is closed at home he is horrific.

would anyone have advice from an islamic or cultural angle? i dont want to break up the family but at the same time i cant live like this

Cuddledup Tue 21-May-13 21:10:21

Yummy I'm really v v sorry to hear about the abuse you are suffering. I'm not a Muslim so I can't offer you any real advice but I did a Google search and found this info. (You may have this info already)

Muslim Women's Helpline - 020 8904 8193 / 020 8908 6715

The Muslim Women’s Helpline aims to provide any Muslim girl or woman in a crisis with a free, confidential listening service and referral to Islamic consultants, plus practical help and information where required.

Also this muslimcommunityhelpline.org.uk/useful-links/

I'm posting because I didn't want you to feel as if no one was listening to you. I'm sure a sister will be along soon and post some useful advice for you - in the meantime take care. .

In friendship
C

yummytummy Tue 21-May-13 21:12:51

thankyou cuddlesup thats very kind of you to search for me. i have some of the numbers but its always helpful to get more.

thanks for replying x

nailak Tue 21-May-13 21:40:17

from an islamic angle

it is a fardh on those who are oppressed to work to remove themselves from the oppression.

Allah is with the oppressed.

As a mother it is your fardh to ensure the emotional, moral and phsyical upbringing of your children and provide them a secure and stable environment.

Sabr is an active thing, patient perseverance. It doesnt mean be patient and do nothing.

Sis if you are ready to leave him then inbox me. National Zakat foundation have 2 womans refuges, I have a contact who has housed people I have refered to him before. I can give you his details or him your details.

Also you wont be alone, you will be able to slowly make a support network of sisters around you. inshaAllah.

Nour Domestic Violence and Amirah foundation are other organisations which may also be able to give you support and advice.

crescentmoon Wed 22-May-13 08:33:59

salams dear yummy i second everything cuddledup and naila said.

forget your parents and your inlaws think of your kids. do you wish your daughter to come to you in 20 years and tell you she is putting up with the same kind of shit from her husband because she saw her mother and feels she has no right to ask more? or that if her saintly mother put up with it even if your daughter feels bad/ suicidal and that she cant cope she also musnt leave? like you feel tied down so you cant leave? or the other risk that she will put up with emotional/verbal/financial abuse because her expectations are so low of men that if he's not beating her its the best she can hope for. or that she might swear off marriage and men completely as some sisters do?

what about your son? even if he doesnt go onto be an abuser my dad is in his 60s and still feels that anger at his father for beating the crap out of their mother all through his childhood. in him it left feelings of impotence, anger, weakness - they all felt craven, coward for not sticking up for her and hated themselves for being grateful he wasnt beating them. all things he's opened up about for why he didnt ever want us his children to ever see him hit our mother. not for her sake but for his children's sake. your children maycarry those same feelings and hatred of themselves that my dad has an old man - no matter how much you try to reassure them.

would you like your daughters in law to come and tell you that your sons are beating them, because they didnt know any different and if their mother stayed with their father why shouldnt their wives remain? that even if it was bad its still okk because their mother dealt with it so they should too.

yours is a jihad - you have to prioritise your kids over husband, parents, inlaws. not by remaining with a wife beater but by breaking the link and bringing up your children away from violence and the threat of violence. this is definitely a case of where divorce is better for the children to see than continuation of that marriage. our communities are so damaged and traumatised that this is normalised for our parents generation. but not for ours, and it should not be for our children.

you know women at the time of the prophet (pbuh) used to initiate divorce over things that elders now would rail against as being a bad woman. but they would go to Muhammad (pbuh) and he would grant them their divorce over 'not being attracted to him', 'not liking him', 'not getting along'. its there in hadith literature - iv posted before in the other thread. then women in the 21st century are remonstrated with for wanting to leave abusive marriages. instead of the man being pressured to battle his nafs/self/ego and anger issues you are told to try harder. but your children will be traumatised i know you think not to break up the family but it will break something inside of them if it has not already. please my dear love dont get to another ramadan being married to this man. start gathering reserves, advice, courage, ignore any small feeling of sympathy or mercy for this man, you need to be hard headed not soft hearted my dear yummytummy.

LostAndNeverFound Thu 23-May-13 03:29:48

Salaam yummy, I hope you're well. Please please listen to what these ladies are saying, they speak such wise words. I second everything crescent has said. You cannot stay with this man, I'm sad for you and hope you find some strength from within to leave. Regardless of religion this is no way to live, you don't deserve it. No one does. There's always woman's aid as well. Please keep us updated and carry on posting on here for some support. We're all here for you.

Does anyone want a 6 week old for the day?! I seem to have the most demanding baby who won't let me put him down even for a second in the day, he cries a lot and it's wearing me down. My two girls weren't like this! I feel like I'm neglecting my two dd's. My 3 year old is sleeping at my mother in laws tonight cause she is lacking attention here and every time we leave her house she begs to stay sad. I know this will pass but it's getting harder not easier! And we've now got 6 weeks to pack up and move and not got anywhere to live still.

Enough of my ramblings. Hope you're all well, and yummy please take the excellent advice you've been given, and keep us updated.

yummytummy Thu 23-May-13 10:04:23

salaam all thanks for support and advice.

i have been in touch with womens aid and other local organisations and seen solicitors etc. i have all the info am just scared to act on it and i have to build myself up to be strong enough to deal with the fallout.

this weekend i am planning to talk to him last time and see if he will agree to leave voluntarily. he may do as he is i think still shaken fron the recent arrest and doesnt want anything to impact on his job which is very respected. if he doesnt agree then i will have to do the occupation orders etc but want to avoid that if possible

am still scared to even talk though and have arranged the talk out of house so he cant do anything.

just want to avoid having to end up taking kids to a refuge etc esp as house is jointly owned so dont want to leave it. it is his dutyto provide financially for kids if we are together or not and he knows that. also he has the means to do so and more.

nailak Thu 23-May-13 11:59:16

May ALlah make it easy for u sis thanks

LostAndNeverFound Thu 23-May-13 14:35:19

I'm going to read dua for you sister yummy.

Good luck x

crescentmoon Thu 23-May-13 15:02:10

clever yummy mashaallah. make sure he is still unsettled because of the recent police involvement. wallahi i feel so sorry for sisters in places where people dont want to know or get involved in dv - unless she has big brothers or cousins willing to get involved and threaten the dh then she is really on her own. here the police take that role instead. i went to a talk last year where thesheikh was actively encouraging women to go to the police about dv rather than let it be dealt with privately. there was pin drop silence in the room though it had a 200 plus audience. along the line of this initiative here...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21799404

(which is about all forms of abuse not just physical abuse)

i also really make dua for you that you dont give up the house and that your DH goes instead. the days when they thought you should just be grateful you got to leave with the divorce paper alone are over. this is maybe another reason why its good to have a civil marriage as well as the nikah marriage too.

Yummytummy I'm not a Muslim, I'm a Christian. I just looked on this thread and I read your story. I wanted to say how sorry I am to hear this is happening and hope you will take your wise sisters' advice, and that I wish and your dear children all the very best in this terribly difficult situation. No woman should have to live in fear, nor her children either. I hope you will not have to and will be able to live in peace. Thinking of you, will say a prayer for you.

HardlyEverHoovers Fri 24-May-13 16:25:41

yummytummy I read your post, you've been given fantastic advice by the sisters on here, I'll make dua for you inshAllah.

Having trouble keeping up with the thread as never seem to get a chance to sit down at the computer anymore, so sorry if I'm repeating anything but:

Did anyone see this report?

www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/female-conversion-to-islam-in-britain-examined-in-unique-research-project

Quite a few people I know were involved in it. It touches on some issues that we discussed on the last thread, about non-white converts recieving different treatment from white converts from the rest of the Muslim community.

Also, I had an email this morning from one of our local mosques, passing on a message from the police about potential revence attacks due to the horrific incident this week. They encouraged people to report ANYTHING even minor, as they are expecting a backlash so thought I would pass that on.

Alhamdulillah the nearest thing I've had to that sort of thing was someone shouting 'get that bloody curtain off your head' out of a car window. Funnily enough I was feeling a bit curtain-like that day, bad hijab day! InshAllah none of us will be subject to anything more sinister.

MareeeyaDoloures Fri 24-May-13 20:08:33

yummy, the older family members will want to avoid the public shame of police, court, social services, divorce etc. I wonder whether it might help if your actions were presented as the only way of avoiding all this.

"Mum, we're going to try 'a discreet separation', 'living apart so the neighbours won't keep reporting the screams', 'stopping the school from informing social services', 'A&E and the GP say they're going to take action' 'I'm scared the dc will go into care with non-Muslims' etc"

[bear in mind I'm Catholic rather than Muslim, we have no divorce ever, whatever the circumstances, so the taboo on marriage breakdown is huge]

nailak Fri 24-May-13 22:53:44

the closest i got was some dodgy stares, and i was thinking "wha u wanna stare me out in my own ends? get a life blud"

LostAndNeverFound Fri 24-May-13 23:49:27

grin nailak

How are you doing yummy? I think I want to let you know you're not alone. I'm in a verbally and emotionally abusive marriage. I've never admitted that but reading your post made me shed a tear. Although there's a big difference, his family are on my side. They know what he's like, how he treats me and my sister in laws are always asking me why I put up with it. His mum is very protective of me and my children. We're the only reason she's staying living in the town we're in, she's the only one that can 'control' my husband when he's out of control and she worries about us.

I'm just sat in bed crying wondering why I put up with his shit. I've just been told for the umpteenth time I'm crap because I didn't make any dinner again today. My 6 week old is breastfeeding two hourly, my toddler is very lively and my 8 year old started her half term today. Yet apparently that's no excuse not to have dinner on the table when he gets in from 'work'. He works 2 hours a day on taxis and keeps the money for himself. Occasionally I get a tenner but he's never paid a penny for any household bills or rent. And if I ask for money he asks for it back. Sigh. Oh and he spends the day at his mums watching films, on the ps3 or asleep in his brothers bed.

He's not a very nice person, he used to be until the weed took over. He's never raised a hand to me, but I get weekly, sometimes daily verbal abuse. And it's always my fault. Like it is today. He says I'm withdrawing and not giving him any attention. Of course I am, but he doesn't understand why when I try and explain how he makes me feel. Then there's the porn, and the other girl he was texting.

I take solace in islam, it's my lifeline. He calls himself a Muslim. He did start praying after his dad passed away, he changed for the better. Now it's all coming back.

So yummy, unfortunately you're not alone. I just get on with looking after my children and striving to be a good person. But I'll never be a good wife, not by his standards.

Sorry to derail, as you were... smile.

And now my toddler is awake... Oh the joys!!

crescentmoon Sat 25-May-13 10:14:16

Good luck dear yummy if yur having the meeting today. May Allah grant you success - but tie your camel/ ready your steeds that kind of thing. Thought mareeya made very good points too.lovely to have italian here too iv read her posts on advice to Christian women, always compassionate and wise.

(Goes and gets another pot of tea)

Dear lost no derailing. It's really good that we have these spaces to talk about such issues. I can't be online nch now but I'm praying for you, he sounds very very difficult. i hate weed- it made my brother an absolute NEET for a few years but he was just out of it not aggressive. My failing is that iv always found it kind to idiots in my family. You can divorce a husband but you can't divorce your relatives. Or I could, technically, but then is be as 'letter not spirit' as the ones who say 'but Muhammad spoke about alcohol not weed/cigarettes/khat' ...

Inshallah better sisters than me will be on later.

crescentmoon Sat 25-May-13 11:58:34

Oh yeah naila your post made me laugh about your reaction to those stares. I went out on Thursday so reluctantly- id had texts and emails like those hardly all night wednesday 'saying be careful about attacks' etc. got on the bus, only musli aboard and I was so stressed I was short abit on change. When the driver told me 'no you haven't got enough' Before I could hurriedly say 'ok il get the next one' he said just get on its ok. I was soooo moved. The later on u just kept having good interactions with non Muslim acquaintances and strangers- more than usual- ad I was so grateful that my day was going so much better the I'd expected. Alhamdullillah

But sisters what are we supposed to do or say when terror acts like this happen? On one hand I want to go to my neighbours houses and talk to them, I cringe thinking of what they'll think first. Or my colleagues. Do I bring it up first or wait for them to bring it up? 'Not in my name' and explain why the vast majority don't agree with this. Theologically and fiqh wise.
But on the other hand I think 'why should I be on the defensive? Why should I be assumed to be in league with criminals and murderers?'. I don't assume other people support the crazies of their groups why should I have to explicitly say 'no I don't agree with murder'. It's insulting isn't it? And actually that's me most of the time. but can we afford that as minorities? The thing is anjum choudhary ad muhajiroun are given as much if not more exposure than Muslim mainstream organisations. I believe they're in a symbiotic relationship with the media. Like alot of daily mail readers I can't understand the thinking of the authorities in allowing choudhary to walk around free when he is responsible for so much radicalisation. But the villain Muslim is the preferred stereotype - no matter how much we try otherwise. Are we at the point of saying 'ahh feck it there's no point even trying' or should we still try?

MareeeyaDoloures Sat 25-May-13 15:11:34

Ah, ignore. Stiff upper lip, blitz spirit, don't mention the war etc. It's our common British birthright to put our heads in the sand, make a cup of tea, and carry on as normal grin.

Everyone sensible knows that a murderous nutter shouting pseudo-Islamic slogans is the same as a murderous nutter shouting BNF slogans. With a bit of luck, the various extremists will end up in adjacent cells and a shared slop-bucket.

Alternatively, if all UK women (yes, all the Woolwich wives included) vowed to wear this for one day, perhaps every extremist nutter would be united in being struck dumb with horror grin.

yummytummy Sat 25-May-13 16:40:45

salaam sistersthankyou for the kind words and duas.

lostandfound am sorry to hear of your situation its a horrible place to be in. it does make a difference to have support though am glad his family is supportive of you that must help a little? congrats on new baby mashallah and i also have a lively toddler so know how demanding they can be!

so i had the talk. he is not prepared to move out and says if he does it wont be a separation it will be a divorce and thats it. he is i think also scared of the family's reaction and the fact that they wont be able to cope with a split. he says he admits he has issues and has hurt me but he is going to work on that but wants to work on it while we are living together.

i tried to explain the level of fear but he just doesnt really get it and is on about missing the kids etc etc i did establish some boundaries and he knows that if he does anything again and police are called then he will definitely be prosecuted and will lose his job. but he is still very much "you put me in jail" even though on some level he knows its all him.

its so shit as now i dont know whats best, to give him a chanceor what? its possible he will behave but he also may not.

so confusing and upsetting. he has gone to his mums with the kids and no doubt they are badmouthing me as i didnt go but am so fed up of the pretence of happy families while they all pretend as if nothing is happening. especially since his parents have said some horrendous things to me which you wouldnt be able to forgive another person for but as they are in laws i just have to take it.

so angry and upset

nailak Sat 25-May-13 18:34:27

yummy,

the rules of talaaq, one a month, you stay together for that time and the iddah?

May Allah make it easy for you.

Crescent I don't think we should aplogise. This is what I wrote on fb with quote from huffington post

Anyone who thinks Muslims need to distance themselves from any murders are revealing their underlying prejudices and an "us and them" attitude. A brutal murder occured. Our whole community is in shock. Muslims are part of the community and British society, to say they need to speak out is viewing them as separate, they somehow think differently, or feel differently from the "rest of us". We need to stop being so apologetic about being Muslims.

"Blogging for HuffPost UK, the incoming vice president of academic affairs at KCL, wrote: "I disagree with [the Muslim Council of Britain] reaffirming the need to distance Islam's true teachings from the individual who attacked the soldier.

Because frankly, Muslims do not need to have to reaffirm and clarify their faith in a way that creates the perception of them being inferior from British society."

However I do think Dawah is a different thing. When people say things, online or in our presence we should be willing and able to respond in a calm, dignified and knowledgable manner.

crescentmoon Tue 28-May-13 12:56:24

salams all!

mareeya that pic you posted gave me a GREAT idea! i did the same last year during the diamond jubilee weekend and had lots of smiles from little old ladies but put the hijab away and hadnt worn it since. hmmm

naila i did agree with what you wrote but i also noticed how non muslims took note of muslim groups/associations spoke out.

lost i had a real deep think about your post all weekend, its so hard to hear of a dear sister like yourself being in such a situation. a DH that doesnt financially support his family, spends his earnings on weed, regularly shouts about what he expects, goes off to be at his mother's house all day, let alone porn? texting anOW? and subhanallah to the extent his own family ask 'how do you put up with it'. with me, if it was my own blood sister, i would just say, 'bass (enough), just come home now'.

and im sure, if it was another sister telling you this dear lost, you would probably tell her to leave. but when it comes to our own selves its hard. or perhaps we think we are strong enough to handle it or change i. but why bother yourself lost? you have 3 young children. and being so vulnerable with a little one just 7/8 weeks old takes all your energy just to keep that baby alive and well let alone the emotional energy to deal with your DH. in fact both of you are supposed to be concentrating on the welfare of your children, not just you as a mother.

in Islam whatever madhab followed the man is religiously obliged to financially support his family. not the wife - she can be a rich woman without spending a penny on her husband or household - or the state. Islam is explicit about alcohol but also pretty much on all 'recreational' drugs (drugs taken under medical supervision fall under different fatawa). the Quran says that intoxicants are haram - not just alcohol but that is the common understanding. and there are hadith where the prophet (pbuh) elaborated and said all intoxicants such as wine are haram. the 4 imams do not talk about drugs because the first drugs - hashish - came after their time but many fatawa then said it was haram. (although the word Assassin comes from the Ismaili sect 'hashishin' who were the scourge of muslim and christian leaders during the time of the crusades and used to take hashish as a religious experience).

weed is from the same cannabis plant but the haram is also in heroin, cocaine etc. my brother used to say it was for stress relief, perhaps your DH also says that, but there is a hadith from Sahih Muslim where the prophet pbuh was asked by a man about alcohol and when he forbade him or told him not to make it. He said: “But I make it as a remedy.” He said: “It is not a remedy, it is a disease.” and another hadith that says all intoxicants 'drugs' are like wine and so all are under haram. at least your DH doesnt beg money off you to buy it, my brother used to bother my parents for money and i used to be so conflicted giving money to my mum because iknew she would feel sorry for him and pass it on so what was supposed to make her life better was used for him. i used to scream at him 'why cant you control yourself!' and beg my parents to kick him out - but they wouldnt as they said he might lose himself more then and use harder drugs.

that part of his life and all our lives was really painful but mashaallah he fixed himself up now so much you wouldnt believe it was the same person. and i love this person he has become - but it is only he was my brother that had us stick with him. but someone can change but it has to come from within them, with him it was deciding to completely cut off his old life and that was when he had reached rock bottom. and Allah has made it that where he sought my help now im the one constantly seeking his- and both of us rely on each other more than on other members of our family subhanallah. strange.

i shake my head that you are a new muslim and he's causing all this turmoil for you and acting like that. especially - seeing as he isnt very religious - with the dunya/worldly way marriage to you increases him. see, in that part of South Asia light skinned women are like trophy wives - they have higher dowries and men have to be pretty successful or at least hardworking - relative to if theyre all in a village or a town -to get married to women with light skin/light eyes. this is the jahilliya of culture not religion im not condoning it its completely unislamic. but in the UK low status low achieving south asian men hit the jackpot finding white women to marry who dont set all the hoops that light skinned women set 'back home': eg that their husband needs to have high education/ high salary/ high living standard etc. (the women themselves also come off quite mercenary).

i think it comes from the whole colonial mentality - there are other parts of the developing world where trophy wife has different connotations. in parts of africa plump/fat wives are trophy wives as they show off the man is successful enough to feed them like that lol because food in quantity is expensive. my sudanese friend told me that in her country her plumpness made her proud but when she moved to the UK she found thinness was the proud thing to be not fatness lol. or that fatness is associated with poverty but in her country fatness was associated with wealth. go figure, anyway...

MareeeyaDoloures Tue 28-May-13 13:18:37

Crescent, for a real high-impact day all we non-Muslim ladies will need to wear one too grin. Did you hear about the damp squib EDL protest outside York masjid in the pouring rain? The mosque leaders had the absolutely genius idea of asking the "protesters" inside for dialogue, custard creams and the big match on widescreen TV. Then they (very gently) educated them in a few basics about Islam's teaching on murder.

DrSeuss Tue 28-May-13 13:25:11
crescentmoon Tue 28-May-13 14:01:19

so theres the divorce route, not today, you can start planning from now. any one of those things you mentioned would make me miserable, mashaallah at your strength.

but its all very well saying 'if he does .... just leave' but the ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. in theory Islam is supposed to reduce alot of flashpoints - i take the view my children and i benefit far more from DHs fear of God and taking his family as an amanah and test rather than as a comfort. he's of the fatalistic 'shit happens' school of thought anyway (like Eeyore rather than tigger wink). i couldnt bear a man who expects his wife to be religious but for himself takes no notice of religion - a muslim man like that is unbearable. and the hypocrisy puts you in danger of hating your religion and hating your God.

when i found i couldnt rely on DH in some things i decided to reduce those arguments and find other practical solutions. with me it was getting a cleaner because DH and i were just not on the same page about housekeeping - to put it very very mildly!

for you, as you've just had a baby and you get on well with your in laws - which you are soo lucky for mashaallah - ask your MIL or SILs to help you by cooking for you and get your DH to pick it up. or if you dont like what they make at least ask them to cook extra for your DH so that you can have macaroni cheese or beans on toast and not bother about his food. i used to do the same with MIL - she used to cook DHs childhood foods in bulk so i used to sit back and just sort me and the other dc out.

i think it was a great idea having your middle dc staying at your MIL one night, try and make it a regular thing. maybe introduce bottle to little one sometimes just so that you can leave baby with others and do things.

what helped DB was moving away from friends who were in the whole weed scene with him but that had to come from himself. since you are moving house within a couple of months, why not move away from the area so that DH and you can make a fresh start? is that possible my love?

as for your DH being at his mums and playing games there. i know for sure if we lived near my in laws DH would be there OFTEN, but then again if i lived near my family i would be there often too. and more likely, would leave the children with my parents often. and it would relieve stress on our marriage to be able to have them there for practical support but if either of us were going to in laws alot it would INCREASE stress on our marriage. there are muslim women who rarely spend time at home and are just at their mother's house all the time and this would not be fair the other way around. your DH is hiding away from family life at his mum's house and soon circumstances might mean that he cant do that anymore.

about money? (sigh). me i couldnt be married to a stingy man and a stingy man could never ever stay married to me. someone coming to you and asking for his £10 back that you used for his children anyway? but other sisters can and have made it work. i have a good friend whose husband is a consultant. they have a big house, he pays for the mortgage, all the bills and living costs food etc. but he doesnt pay for a single thing more. not clothes/activities for dc. all his extra money - which is thousands a month - he sends to his elderly parents abroad. they used to argue about it but she just decided to be practical and as she was well educated and high earning herself decided that 'extras' would be met by her. and they've lived together quite well like that subhanallah. this is not an uncommon problem for some sisters and its very hard alhamdullillah my DH priorities us his family first (though that took abit of work on my part, another topic for another day wink).

as for work, if your husband is religiously inclined you can talk to him about what the quran and the sunnah say about this subject. ORR, be clever and make friends with muslim/non muslim couples where the husband is working and ambitious - the peer pressure/group can have a big effect. not show off couples - then your DH will say 'i may be alot of things but im not a braggart' - but quietly hardworking men. their pride in being able to support their families might spur your DH to be the same rather than relying on others. its harder that way because you have to wait for the penny to drop but with a newborn baby its a helpful way. if your in laws are good let them try to advise him and help him.

as for verbally abusive - make it your baseline standard from now that your not going to put up with verbal abuse. or any kind of abuse. thats you thats your standard.

as for yummy why do you need to wait for another incident could you not say you have proof and will act based on the last one? what kind of life is he expecting you to live? now that you know his fear is of criminal enforceability rather than shame of family/ children/ neighbours knowing he's a wifebeater id say go that route. i know you want to hold onto the house for you and dc and save them from the refuge experience but its going to take something drastic to make him get out. legal drastic occupation orders etc. inshaallah. inshallah

crescentmoon Tue 28-May-13 14:18:16

salams drseuss is that what mareeya was talking about. cool story i read the link to the main one in the York Press.

www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4944721/EDL-supporters-marching-on-York-mosque-invited-in-for-tea-biscuits-and-footie.html

LostAndNeverFound Tue 28-May-13 22:48:31

Salaam dear crescent. I have read your response a few times, and I can relate and understand every single thing you said. I've said this before but you speak such wise words.

Yes you're quite right, if any sister were in the situation I'd tell them to LTB run for the hills. I feel like this isn't my life, it feels like I'm looking in on someone else and this isn't me. I'm actually a very strong willed person, in my life before islam I didn't take any shit from anyone and always stood my ground. I was quite feisty. So this doesn't feel like me. I'm not a walkover. To the outside world I wear the trousers. But behind closed doors it's a different story, I do stand my ground when he says things that are so outrageous it's laughable. But I try to just ignore as I don't want him throwing things back in my face by saying I'm argumentative. Don't get me wrong, I don't cower in the corner, I'm not scared of him and 90% of the time our relationship is 'normal'.

Cooking wise, we probably eat at my in laws just as much as we eat at home. He has a big breakfast there every morning. So I don't know why he had that outburst, which he's had before, when there's always food readily available at his mums. They don't mind us eating there, I just offer to make something every now and then and take it round for them.

His family call him Jekyll and Hyde. I couldn't agree more.

I actually asked him to leave yesterday. I can't deal with what he's done any longer, it's hurting too much and I don't want it to effect my children. We had a long chat, he wouldn't accept it's over. He still doesn't. He's still here acting like everything is ok, being extra nice to us all. Typical abusive behaviour I believe.

We need to stay in the town we're living in really. My eldest is settled at school. My mum, brother & sister all live minutes away, as do my inlaws. I'm very close with my siblings and their children, I see them all at least twice a week. I do keep thinking about moving away, but I fear our problems will just follow us wherever we go.

I've referred my H time and time again to the Quran where it states about money. For some reason he seems to think he's exempt hmm. I'm fighting a losing battle. He has no fear of God, this is the problem. All of his friends work extremely hard and provide for their families, they all have savings, nice houses and nice cars. We have nothing. A car, yes. Our own house, no. Savings, not a penny.

The game playing seems to have ceased for now, it comes and goes. I think his mum told him to get round to mine and help me out or she'd stop cooking his breakfast!

I can't reply to everything you've written, I'm on my phone feeding my beautiful boy in bed. But I have read it all, and thank you again for taking the time to reply to me.

Marshallah you're brother sounds wonderful. It's reassuring knowing people can change.

Yummy I'd love to give you advice but all the other sisters have said it all. Also I don't think I'm in any position to tell you what I think you should do, given my own situation!

That news story is reassuring to read after all the negative press recently. I like like it!

HardlyEverHoovers Wed 29-May-13 17:58:37

Salaams dear lost, i'm having problems finding time to keep up with mumsnet at the moment, but have been trying to read your posts about your situation. Crescent has given you some wonderful advice. My marriage is also difficult (feels particularly so at the moment, but has its ups and downs). At the moment I couldn't justify leaving, as my son definitely benefits from a stable family home and his very devoted father, but I know it might not always be that way. I try and make myself internally strong, so that I am not too badly affected by him and his different moods and controlling behaviour. For example, he did his best to spoil my day with my family to celebrate my passing an important exam, but I just got on with having a lovely day anyway. It's hard though, and I have many tearful nights when he's at work.
My fear is that if I ever did leave it would be so completely permanent, there would be know going back, and I'm a long way off being that certain that it will never work.
Not sure that sharing my situation will help you at all, but I think sometimes it's nice to know that not everyone is n wonderful marriages, which you can sometimes feel when your struggling along all on your own. Your in laws sound great, mine are pretty good too, which helps. I'll make dua for you dear lost.

LostAndNeverFound Wed 29-May-13 20:19:25

Salaam hardly. Thank you for taking the time to reply, and for sharing that with me. I think you've described how I feel. When he upsets me, I try my best to ignore him and keep a happy face, especially for the children.

His sister always says how strong I am for staying with him, when I think I'm weak for not having the strength to leave.

He is also a devoted dad, he's brilliant with the children and DD2 especially is in awe of him. She's very attached to him (as I'm sure all girls are to their daddy's) and they have an amazing bond. Even more so at the moment as I'm spending so much time feeding and seeing to the baby.

I think I'm sad that I'm not alone in this. Three sisters suffering from an unhappy marriage, I pray for all of us that Allah swt gives us strength from within.

crescentmoon Wed 29-May-13 21:14:22

salams lovelies,

im grateful you took my posts ok. i read it over and cringed at the bad grammer in places - i wrote it all in a rush barely any commas! but also it seemed like i was putting alot of caveats in, because i didnt want to say outright either way and just wanted to present to you dear lost different ways to think on it.

it might be you telling him to leave will be the making of your DH - that your statement and readiness to go through with it will be part of the 'rock bottom' he has to reach in order to deal with his problems inshaallah.

is it possible to do a 180 degree turn with THE SAME MAN? yes i think so sis. i had similar problems to hardly. when first marrying i made myself sooo doormat-like im embarressed to think of it now, and when i came to my senses and realised id let him walk all over me i took the lesson from it but despaired of whether i could change the marriage as it was set as 'mr crescentmoon calls it, and crescentmoon just says 'ok habibi''.

sabotaged by my own hands too. and i did manage to but it took a while, a long while. things i would let go before i had to make an issue of and i didnt care that it led DH to saying to me 'you've changed' or 'why are you arguing so much?' because well, my children gave me purpose. and it took alot of grumbling, and grousing (see how i use non 'fight/flight terms here?) but we are completely at a different place to where we were in 2nd year/3rd year marriage. a year in i thought we're not going to make it and now alhamdullillah, i feel like we're going to go the distance inshaallah. so you can change/ break a behaviour pattern dear lost - on your side and perhaps his side too. but you need to understand your own worth and set your standards very high like i had to change to do. dunyawiyya wise (in worldly terms) especially.

LostAndNeverFound Wed 29-May-13 21:59:38

He's still here, carrying on like normal. The hardest thing is he makes me laugh, and this evening I forgot for a minute what had happened and laughed with him about something he said. I then stopped abruptly and put on my 'moody' face. He obviously noticed and said its ok to smile, you haven't done much of it recently and I've missed you.

I honesty don't know though whether I'll follow through with him leaving. I know I'm worth more than this. I know I don't deserve it. But deep down I keep thinking he's got it in him to change. Looking back he's changed loads since I first met him in lots of ways. I like to keep my faith in him, mad as that sounds!!

I want my son to have a bond with him like he deserves to. I think I'm trying to talk myself out of leaving him confused. This is so hard! I have upmost respect to those women on the relationship board who up and leave their abusive husbands.

Yummy please keep us updated if you can.

Madmum24 Wed 29-May-13 22:05:46

Assalamo alaikum sisters,

Sonice to discover this thread mashaAllah! I haven't read it all in depth, but just want to give my du'aa for those who are having a hard time at the moment, remember with every difficulty comes ease and Allah swt is always there for us x

crescentmoon Wed 29-May-13 22:22:26

you know when i read this thread? i think of the hadith of umm zara, that famous hadith the prophet pbuh spoke about the 11 women who sat down together and made a promise to speak truthfully about their husbands holding nothing back. you can actually listen to it explained by Imam Suhaib Webb in the 'Mothers of the Believers' series or at length - because there have been books written on this one hadith alone - by Shaykh Abdullah Adhami in his set called Gender Relations.

iv always liked it because iv always thought that the women sitting around talking are like how me and my best friends get like when discussing our lives and our husbands. for me a mark of a good friendship is being able to confide in another sister about family/marital issues and having her confide in you. i am leery of sisters who just sit and listen and listen without saying a word. or sisters who (its not happened to me but it puts me off when i see it in others) when someone says 'im having this problem' react by immediately twisting the knife of anguish further. im very strange but its a strangeness i picked up from my mum, that when someone says to me 'my husband is like this' i try and find something to commiserate with her about from my own life! and iv apologised to DH sometimes that iv exaggerated his annoying points just to have something to say to make a sister feel less alone. and when i think of this hadith i think perhaps this is one of the conditions where talking about someone is allowed - because usually backbiting is haram - because the offloading and the sharing of experiences leads to relief and laughter if nothing else. a problem shared / is halved and all that.

so this hadith is narrated in Sahih Muslim and Tirmidhi - so for Sunni Muslims two great hadith collections:

il just post the words of the hadith here but you need to read the commentary here as the english translation alone doesnt do it justice and the commentary goes into the nuances of the arabic words used. as i said earlier, books have been written about the hadith of umm zara alone!

crescentmoon Wed 29-May-13 22:28:14

heres the hadith:

""Lady Aisha reported that (one day) there sat together eleven women making an explicit promise amongst themselves that they would conceal nothing about their spouses.

The first one said: "My husband is a sort of the meat of a lean camel placed at the top of a mountain, which it is difficult to climb up, nor is (the meat) good enough that one finds in oneself the urge to take it away (from the top of that mountain).
(^Commentary:That means he is so useless that no one can benefit from him materially or otherwise, and besides this he is proud, arrogant and ill-mannered. He is in such a state that it is difficult to contact him.
He is a medicine of no use and utterly useless, and because of his pride and arrogance it is difficult to reach him^.)

The second one said: My husband (is so bad) that I am afraid I would not be able to describe his faults-both visible and invisible completely.
(^Commentary:She means if she begins, no matter how many faults she describes, he is full of faults. If someone has a few faults they could be described, but the one that is only made of faults, how many of them could be described or pointed out? It is such a long story that one would become bored. A few commentators have made an objection to this that she broke her promise by refusing to describe her husband. The fact is that, she described everything in a few words, that he is a body full of faults and these are not countable^.)

The third one said: My husband is a long-statured fellow (i. e. he lacks intelligence). If I give vent to my feelings about him, he would divorce me, and if I keep quiet I would be made to live in a state of suspense (neither completely abandoned by him nor entertained as wife).
(^Commentary:The tallness of the husband must have been mentioned due to the popular saying that tallness is a sign of stupidity. The statement made of the height relates to his stupidity, or it is mentioned because he was ugly. Like a tall tower that is without a suitable build, looks ugly and is also bad mannered. If I say anything or express a need, he will immediately divorce me. If I keep quite and do not express my needs, he does not care. I am just hanging around. I cannot be counted among those who have a husband, as there is nothing like a husband, nor among those who have no husbands that I may look for one in another place. In some narrations there is also a sentence which translates, I am always in such a state as if I am under a sharp sword. I do not know when my affair will come to an end^.)

The fourth one said: My husband is like the night of Tihama (the night of Hijaz and Mecca), neither too cold nor hot, neither there is any fear of him nor grief.
(^Commentary:He is mild natured and is not very cunning or dull. One does not fear to live with him, nor do the nerves and mind become dull or tired. It is said that the name of this woman is Mahd bint Abi Harumah. Makkah and its surroundings areas are called Tihaamah. The nights of this area are always mild even if the days are very hot.^)

The fifth one said: My husband is (like) a leopard as he enters the house, and behaves like a lion when he gets out, and he does not ask about that which he leaves in the house.
(^Commentary: If this is taken to be praise, then it shall mean, that when he enters the house he becomes quiet, he does not know of anything and does not utter a complaint on any word. He does not become angry. He is so unaware, it is as if he is sleeping. Whatever we cook or eat, he does not interfere in anything, nor does he investigate anything, that, why was such a thing done, or why did this happen? When he goes out he is like a lion. Presses his teeth and thunders loudly. Whatever there is in the house for eating etc. he does not care, nor inquires that how and why was this spent? Whatever was brought to the house, was used by the household as they saw fit.^)

The sixth one said: So far as my husband is concerned, he eats so much that nothing is left back and when he drinks he drinks that no drop is left behind. And when he lies down he wraps his body and does not touch me so that he may know my grief.
(^Commentary: If it is to be taken to be criticism, as is the view of the majority, it will mean that the time of eating, whatever comes before him he polishes it off, nothing is left for the family members. Like a buffalo he eats up everything. When it is time to drink, he gulps down the whole well. He sleeps like a stranger in his own sheets. Forget embracing me, he does not even touch my body so that he may know or feel the heat or coldness in my body^.)

The seventh one said: My husband is heavy in spirit, having no brightness in him, impotent, suffering from all kinds of conceivable diseases, heaving such rough manners that he may break my head or wound my body, or may do both.

The eighth one said: My husband is as sweet as the sweet-smelling plant, and as soft as the softness of the hare.
(^Commentary: It is said the name of this woman is Naashirah bint Aws. By her praise she means he has a soft nature, he is not harsh and ill mannered. Both pleasure of the body and soul are found in him. He has a tender body which makes me want to embrace it, or he is soft-natured that there is no sign of anger. Fragrance is constantly emitted from his body. In some narrations this sentence is also added which means. "I dominate him, and he dominates all other people. My domination is not due to his humbleness, because he dominates others. My domination is because of love, or the politeness in him.".^)

The ninth one said: My husband is the master of a lofty building, long-statured, having heaps of ashes (at his door) and his house is near the meeting place and the inn.
(^Commentary:This woman has mentioned many praises. The first is that her house is very high. If a big mansion is meant here, then it shall mean wealth and leadership, because a high mansion can only be built by a wealthy person. If by high dwelling it is meant that the house is built on a raised ground, like it was common amongst 'Arabs for generous and hospitable people to build there houses non raised places, so that strangers and travellers could see it and come to it. In this case it will mean he is generous and hospitable. Some 'ulama state that by a high dwelling, it is meant that he descended from a high and noble family. The second praise is of his hospitality, due to this it is natural that there will be a lot of ashes in the house, because a lot of food is cooked for visitors.^)

The tenth one said: My husband is Malik, and how fine Malik is, much above appreciation and praise (of mine). He has many folds of his camel, more in number than the pastures for them. When they (the camels) hear the sound of music they become sure that they are going to be slaughtered.
(^Commentary:There are always visitors at his home. The camels are not sent out to graze but fed in their pans, so that when a visitor arrives a camel could be slaughtered immediately. Some have translated the sounding of the mizhar as, that whenever a visitor arrives, in happiness and in the visitors honour, this instrument is sounded. By hearing the sound, the camels know that the time of their slaughter is near, as a visitor has arrived. According to 'Arab custom this meaning seems more appropriate, that when a visitor he is immediately entertained by being served drinks, tid-bits, music etc. By the sound of the music the camels know that meal times are near, and for its preparations, the time for their slaughter is near.^)

The eleventh one said: My husband is Abu Zara'. How fine Abu Zara' is! He has suspended in my ears heavy ornaments and (fed me liberally) that my sinews and bones are covered with fat. So he made me happy. He found me among the shepherds living in the side of the mountain, and he made me the owner of the horses, camels and lands and heaps of grain and he finds no fault with me. I sleep and get up in the morning (at my own sweet will) and drink to my heart's content. The mother of Abu Zara', how fine is the mother of Abu Zara'! Her bundles are heavily packed (or receptacles in her house are filled to the brim) and the house quite spacious. So far as the son of Abu Zara' is concerned, his bed is as soft as a green palm-stick drawn forth from its bark, or like a sword drawn forth from its scabbard, and whom just an arm of a lamb is enough to satiate. So far as the daughter of Abu Zara' is concerned, how fine is the daughter of Abu Zara', obedient to her father, obedient to her mother, wearing sufficient flesh and a source of jealousy for her co-wife. As for the slave-girl of Abu Zara', how fine is she; she does not disclose our affairs to others (outside the four walls of the house). She does not remove our wheat, or provision, or take it forth, or squander it, but she preserves it faithfully (as a sacred trust). And she does not let the house fill with rubbish. One day Abu Zara' went out (of his house) when the milk was churned in the vessels, that he met a woman, having two children like leopards playing with her pomegranates (chest) under her vest. He divorced me (Umm Zara') and married that woman (whom Abu Zara') met on the way.
I (Umm Zara') later on married another person, a chief, who was an expert rider, and a fine archer: he bestowed upon me many gifts and gave me one pair of every kind of animal and said: Umm Zara', make use of everything (you need) and send forth to your parents, (but the fact) is that even if I combine all the gifts that he bestowed upon me, they stand no comparison to the least gift of Abu Zara'.

just found a video discussing it called 'The flaws of Men' by Umar Baloch

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQgd2YMzMYI

nailak Wed 29-May-13 23:56:07

jzk sis

hardly and lost have you thought of ruqya btw? you never know might help! Also I know a sis who wants to set up a Muslim version of relate, she has been a islamic counsellor for more then 20 years and is experienced in marriage counselling and stuff, she does workshps on communication, change, parenting and so on, if anyone wants deatails please inbox me and i will pass them on inshaAllah

HardlyEverHoovers Fri 31-May-13 13:28:18

Nailak, I have been in touch with someone recently about ruqya, and inshAllah will be going down that route. It's certainly worth a try, as we know that there are both seen and unseen forces at work in our lives, so any approach to a problem should deal with both possible causes I suppose. I haven't done it up until now because I haven't known anybody trustworthy who does it (know a lot of strange people who do it and charge lots of money). Also my husband does it anyway, so I wasn't sure we needed someone else to do it, but then I thought that as the problems came from us maybe it would be better for an outsider to do it. I'll PM you for those details inshAllah.
Lost, it sounds in your situation that leaving temporarily might be a way of shocking your husband into realising the extent of the problems. As you have the support of his family etc, and if you don't feel it would cause any further problems.
Unfortunately if I did this I'd be a grave danger of losing DS, I have never even mentioned the possibility of our marriage ending for this reason.
Thanks for the hadith crescent.

crescentmoon Fri 31-May-13 14:44:43

pm'ed you hardly

crescentmoon Sat 01-Jun-13 11:45:04

salam sisters, i mentioned earlier:

"...the hypocrisy puts you in danger of hating your religion and hating your God."

and the proof that preservation of one's religion is greater than preservation of one's marriage is this hadith reported in Sahih Bukhari (so a strongly authenticated hadith chain)

that Ibn Abbas said: (which means he was the witness to the exchange)

'The wife of Thabit Ibn Qays came to the Prophet (pbuh) and said: "O, Prophet of Allah (pbuh), I do not blame him (her husband) for his conduct or religion, but I fear to apostate from Islam (because of my uneasiness with him)."
So the Prophet (pbuh) told her: "Can you give him back the garden he offered you as a dowry in exchange for the divorce." She replied: 'Yes'. Then the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) told Thabit, "Accept the garden and divorce her."

this woman - the wife of Thabit Ibn Qays - straight out said that her husband had not done anything offensive in terms of his behaviour or religion but that she feared staying married to him would make her leave her Islam. perhaps because of depression or despair for having no feelings about him, perhaps she feared she would commit adultery. the only reason was her uneasiness with him. and Muhammad (pbuh) gave her the divorce based on that.
and thats for an inoffensive man - perhaps she didnt love him. (this isnt the only hadith where a woman got a divorce by saying only that she didnt love/have feelings for him.)
if one's husband is exhibiting a behaviour that is untenable - and isnt changing or responding to any efforts to change, whosee behaviour gets so bad it brings one to despair or makes one feel in danger of losing her emaan, then she has to take the steps to preserve her faith.
Submission is to Allah, not to man. if there isnt an equitability then that isnt really any type of peace (and we are already strained enough by our relatives). if an abusive marriage will not change no matter what then thats what i think is important.

LostAndNeverFound Sun 02-Jun-13 14:39:44

Thanks for those hadiths crescent I read them with goosebumps. I find I often get that when reading something that I can relate to in my personal life.

Unfortunately things have gone from bad to worse today so I'm going to stop posting about my marital problems until I work out a way forward. Thank you all for your help and support.

HardlyEverHoovers Sun 02-Jun-13 23:07:06

We'll keep making dua for you lost. xxx

crescentmoon Mon 03-Jun-13 07:52:10

Dear lost I totally understand. I will keep making dua for you and ask you to make dua for me too.

Im not one to quote hadith and then take make my own ruling from it. that hadith I last quoted serves as part of the body of hadith that establishes the Concept of 'Khul' divorce in Islamic fiqh - that women were able to petition for a 'no fault' divorce sinply by giving back the mahr. But in some parts of the Muslim world that aspect of law was suppressed, instead women had to prove 'mistreatment' or they couldn't divorce. That's when they made it to a mufti/qadi in the first place. (in Egypt they only allowed the 'khul' divorce in 2000- 1400 years after Muhammad (pbuh) first established it for women!)

Have a lovely day sisters- I have a parenting question to you lost, hardly naila and all other sisters. How to teach a child to have a sense of honour without teaching them shame? Or is it possible to teach honour based morality- that makes so many financial transactions work amongst muslims- without it? iv puzzled over it.

crescentmoon Mon 03-Jun-13 08:27:05

and, another parenting question, slightly related to the first. how do i stop my sweet funny confident children becoming obnoxious. or, how to turn around ds1 whose crossed the line already, back!

rosiedays Mon 03-Jun-13 09:00:08

Hi sisters. May I pop in for advice? I married a wonderful Muslim man 5 years ago and we are expecting our miracle baby girl in July inshalla. I am very keen to insure she is brought up with a good knowledge of her religion and I follow the teachings of Islam with regards to bringing her up. Dh does not go to mosque and I have no Muslim friends here to ask advice. Mil is wonderful but communication is difficult as my Arabic is rubbish
So my first question. .. is there anything at or after birth that I should do?
Can anyone recommend a good book I could read?
We live in Bristol does anybody know of a Muslim mums group here?
Looking forward to your replys. Salam

peacefuloptimist Mon 03-Jun-13 11:48:21

Salams Rosie

Congratulations on the news of your baby girl. I pray Allah gives you a safe and easy delivery, as well as a gorgeous, healthy, peaceful baby at the end of it.

My little boy was born last summer and I remember researching Islamic etiquettes and customs with regards to newborn babies.

First thing you are supposed to do when the baby is born is recite the call to prayer (Arabic word for it is adhan) in the ear of the infant.

"I saw the Prophet peace be upon him (PBUH) give the adhân for prayer in the ear of al-Husayn ibn Alî (the Prophet's grandson) when his mother Fâtimah (the daughter of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH) gave birth to him," (Tirmidhî)

It doesnt have to be a specific person who does this. It can be you, your dh or any relative who knows the call to prayer. This is done so that one of the first things the baby hears is the name of Allah.

This should be done in a voice that is audible to the baby but not too loud so as to startle the baby (like my uncle did when he recited the adhan in a loud voice in the middle of the hospital ward when his granddaughter was born. Imagine when you walk past a mosque in a muslim country at prayer time - that's how loudly he did it grin ).

The next step is of course to let your nearest and dearest know so that they are not left worrying and also so that they can make supplications (duas) for the baby. Something like saying I pray that God protects your baby, gives baby good health, intellect, strength, piety etc.

Another thing that you do soon after the baby is born is the tahnik. This is where you soften a date and then rub the palate of the new-born with it just after the birth or soon after. This is done by putting a piece of the softened date on your finger and rubbing it from left to right in the mouth of the baby. Don't allow any piece of the date to remain in the babies mouth. Its just to get let the baby get the taste of it rather then to eat it. I read somewhere that the sweetness of the date encourages the baby to suckle but not sure if that's the reason behind it.

The next step is naming the baby. The baby may be named on the day of it's birth or later on the seventh day or past the seventh day. For the first three days we just called our ds baby boy because we couldn't agree on a name. We had chosen one beforehand but at the time of birth we both didn't feel like it suited him. Some people make a big deal about hiding the name that they have chosen for the baby from all except their closest relatives until they officially announce it to everyone
on the seventh day but this is not really something from the religion but more like a cultural practice in some countries.

The next step is the fun part. On the seventh day you throw a party for the baby which we call the aqiqah. You don't actually have to have a party. Its just on that day you must arrange for a sheep to be sacrificed to thank God for blessing you with the child and as a welcome for it. The meat of the sacrifice may be distributed cooked or uncooked. If people cook the meat they tend to throw a party and feed their guests it or if they distribute it uncooked it is normally given to family, friends, neighbours or now more commonly people arrange for it to be distributed to the poor. By distributing the meat (rather than keeping it all for yourself) you are sharing the blessings that your family have received with the wider community if that makes sense because they are also sharing in your joy and also supplicate for your baby.

On the seventh day after the birth the head of the baby normally should be shaved and the hair is then weighed and the value of the baby's weight of hair in silver is given to charity. When the Prophet Muhammed PBUH grandson was born he instructed his daughter Fatima to:

“shave his head and give the weight of his hair in silver to the poor" (Ahmad)

The right side of the head should be shaved first, then the left. The shaving should be done after the sacrifice, and it was the custom of muslims in the past to rub some perfume over the baby's head after the shaving though this is not necessary. In the case of baby girls there is a bit of difference of opinion whether you have to shave their hair or not. My mum swears that its not obligatory to shave the baby girls hair and I know people who have shaved their baby girls hair and some who haven't. I think I will leave it to other sisters here to elaborate on this point. I had a boy so it was pretty clear cut.

I think that's all of it. If I have missed anything out someone please correct me. I don't know of any books but there are some good sites online that can offer you more information.

Hope everything goes well for you. X

nailak Mon 03-Jun-13 19:23:21

crescent I am confused what do you mean by honour and shame? loike of their bodies?

crescentmoon Mon 03-Jun-13 20:13:29

no not honour shame bodies - not aeebbbb!!! - but honour shame of bad behaviour. i think - and its just my perception - among muslims we have various motivations for doing good and leaving bad:

1. Allah first and foremost
2. the cosmic carrot? paradise
3. the cosmic stick? hell
4. then (personal) honour (depending on whether you come from a honour/shame culture or a guilt based culture)
5. then (personal) shame
6. then... criminal prosecution

iv done committee with sisters who are not at all religious but its secondary to whether they are perceived to be honourable people. our interest free finance networks work because of trust. not just trust in yourself, but having trust in other people. possibly large groups of people, trust across large distances or trust over long periods of time. this is why halawa money transfer and committee are so prevalent across muslim communities. firstly because of the prohibition of interest then because of the value of trust. but whats that based on? Allah the All Seeing All Hearing, Well Acquainted with what you do? or lol, because of mutual fear of hell? or is it honour? and is the backup to that shame? is there a way to give those values to the next generation without teaching them the negaative deterrent only the positive?

crescentmoon Mon 03-Jun-13 20:29:36

congratulations rosie on the pregnancy - miracle baby you said so im thinking the 5 years you were married was ttc. inshaallah you will have her in your arms to carry soon. totally agreed with peaceful's post - those are the common customs amongst sunnis as its taken from hadith not the Quran.i think Shias have different customs when a child is born.

we had an aqiqah party for dc1 then just sent money abroad for meat to be distributed to the poor for dc2 and dc3 rather than a party. found myself discussing the cost of a whole sheep versus a whole cow and how the price had gone up so much since ds1 and ds2s birth! i once was in an islamic bookshop and when i went to pay the brother gave me a bag of meat and pronounced it was aqiqah meat a family had given to the shop to distribute to customers. i was not very impressed as i was on my way to somewhere else and didnt want to to be carrying it all afternoon lol. my three all spent their first 6 months practically bald after the 7 day head shaving but they have lovely thick heads of hair now!

rosiedays Tue 04-Jun-13 10:33:21

thank you so much peaceful
I knew about the sheep confused this is going to be done in DH home city by his mother thankfully!! as i don't think my nieghbours would understand us bringing a live sheep into the garden and killing it!!! confused I've seen it meany times in Egypt and still have to leave the house when it's being done!
If heartburn = hair (as my MIL says it does) then we will be giving great Alms!
The date thing makes sence and i will take one with me to the hospital (now added to hospital bag list. grin )
DH will recite Adhan to her smile he is so excited. i also have a CD of The Holy Quarn to play for her to help her sleep. DH says he listened to this every night as a child and even now will put it on if he has trouble sleeping and always falls asleep very quickly once it is on.
Thank you again. I will keep poping in for Tea and advice if thats ok. xx

LostAndNeverFound Tue 04-Jun-13 19:12:42

Thank you thanks

Congratulations rosie. A little girl, how lovely. Have you thought of any names yet? I'm not sure if it's on this thread or our last thread, but crescent kindly listed certain surahs that can be read at different times in the pregnancy. Have a dig around, I'm on my phone all the time and it's too slow, otherwise I'd look for you!

The CD of the Quran sounds like good idea, which CD did you get? I'd like one for the car as I get too distracted by music on the radio!

crescent I don't know the answer to your question! I'm trying to work it out myself at the moment as DD1 is having a few problems at school with behaviour. And I just can't seem to get through to her the whole honour shame of bad behaviour. She knows Allah swt is All Seeing and All Hearing, but that doesn't stop her, she lies something chronic at the moment. I'm hoping it's a phase and will pass. I'd love to know if anyone else has any tips!

HardlyEverHoovers Tue 04-Jun-13 19:34:20

Congratulations on your little girl Rosie, may Allah protect and guide her and make her one of those who knows Him.
Crescent, I wasn't too sure what you meant by the honour/shame thing, at first I thought that you meant modesty/shame but do you mean behaviour in general?
I've noticed in my husbands family something I like, which is like a pride that doesn't have any arrogance in it, often based on 'doing the right thing' or doing something well etc. I think this is part of it, to teach them there is dignity in doing the right thing. Personally I'm also keen to distinguish modesty from shame, for example so that my children know that they can always talk about certain topics if necessary, as long as in the right context etc. We use 'proper names' for private parts in our house and I feel that's quite an important part of it, no giggling behing corners etc.

crescentmoon Wed 05-Jun-13 09:25:26

Yes hardly that's what I want them to have a sense of their own dignity in doing the right thing and to be with and trusted by others to do the right 'honourable' thing. For their own honour whether they practise the 5pillars or not etc.

lost I sympathise love- but don't stigmatise her as a 'liar' or anything inshaallah its a phase just keep talking to her and steer her towards the right way. There are lots of young children who go through the same phase but yur dd and my ds are in the stage of 'teach them' so we need to start getting more serious.
My problem is My ds1 is starting to be cheeky and rude at school to his teacher and I cant be anything but zero tolerance on that. he's more stronger willed than younger siblings and stubborn and I'm wavering abit about how to deal with it effectively since he doesn't see the links. I don't want to bribe him to have good behaviour and not be s cheeky little sod- but I'm not going to use scare tactics like how my parents did when I was younger (tough sometimes I in my heart i wonder if the reason db2 went off the rails was because they never went old school 'spare the rod.....' On him!).

LostAndNeverFound Wed 05-Jun-13 21:16:15

You're right about them being at the stage in their life where they need to be taught, and the way to teach I believe, is by example. I work really hard to be a good example to my children, unfortunately it's not that easy when you have a DH like mine. And yes, I don't think she should be branded a liar, she's only 8 and it would live with her forever if I called her that. It's hard work and infuriating at times though!

I don't know about anyone else but I'm really struggling with time at the moment. I'd love to be able to sit down with my eldest and read about and discuss our religion so we can learn together. But I just feel like time is against us. She reads arabic twice a week, does athletics one day, ballet another day and then she does homework on the fifth day! Weekends we spend either at my in laws or with my family. She also goes to bed before 7 most days on her own accord. I think I'm hoping once the baby is in more of a routine I can set aside some time with her. Maybe keep her up on a Friday night for a bit longer and have that as our time.

How do you all fit everything in?!

HardlyEverHoovers Fri 07-Jun-13 19:46:54

Can't help you with that lost as my DS as just little so not really at the stage of specifically trying to teach him, though of course they learn all the time from their parents as you said.
Really I think that is the most important thing, to set an example and teach them to act like Muslims, knowledge is great, but only if it translates into action.

fuzzywuzzy Fri 07-Jun-13 20:03:35

Yeay found the thread again.

Lost, can you not talk to your DD on your way to & from school?

The way I teach my girls is telling them to consider how it would feel to be in that position, how it feels to suffer the fall out when friends find out.

Also for me lying is a deal breaker, I've told my girls that telling me the truth won't get them in as much trouble as telling fibs, & that if they lie to me, I won't be able to believe anything they say because they've lied to me already so how will I know.

I don't get angry & scream & shout, I try to make sure I'm available to them & when they going on and on about stuffing I consciously try and pay attention and engage with them. Ill let you know how it pans out when they hit their teens!

So far we're pretty tight knit little family Alhumdulillah

LostAndNeverFound Sun 09-Jun-13 21:53:58

Yes fuzzy I do, it's a 10 min drive and we often recite things together, it's good for my 3yo DD to try and join in as well.

What I'd like to do is put the younger two to bed and sit with my 8yo and read books to learn and discuss things. The only flaw to that plan is a cluster feeding baby and an 8yo who like to be in bed before 7! One day inshallah we'll have the time to be able to do this.

Hardly where you said knowledge is great but only when put into action, reminds me of my H. He knows an awful lot about our religion, but he barely puts any of it into action. Where as I know very little but what I do know I try my best to follow it.

Another question for you all. With Ramadan fast approaching what are your views on fasting whilst exclusively breastfeeding? I've read lots of different opinions online, but have yet to find a Hadith that says anything about it. Can anyone point me in the direction of one? Thanks.

LostAndNeverFound Sun 09-Jun-13 21:59:39

Fuzzy I've also told my DD1 that lying about something is always worse than the action itself. When she does tell me the truth I say 'thank you for being truthful with me, but please understand that doing xyz is unacceptable' and leave it at that. Depending on what it is, I then punish the action itself with 8 minutes on the step, which she hates! I may need to try another approach as that doesn't seem to be getting through to her yet though!

fuzzywuzzy Mon 10-Jun-13 00:10:47

Lost what I did when I caught DD lying (& she hadn't confessed I found her out), the next time some thing happened I went and verified it with others who had been there. I told her I didn't feel I could believe her after the last time and I wasn't going to get someone into trouble if she were lying. I hadn't punished her for her lie I had told her I was really disappointed and upset that she let me believe the lie.

I don't remember the details of it as it was a long time ago, but my reaction really impacted on her as we are very close, and she realised how horrible it was not being believed when telling the truth.
We also used the story of the boy who cried wolf. Touch wood it does seem to have sunk in for her Alhumdulillah.

Also at school she's learnt the signs of a hypocrite one being when he speaks he lies!

As for the fasting, I've been taught that nursing mothers are exempt, but need to make the fasts up later (do them in winter, shorter fasts).
I would go with how you feel, if you feel up to it and really want to then check with your GP & try it & see how you feel. But the fasts will be long, you don't want to make yourself ill or upset your milk supply.

fuzzywuzzy Mon 10-Jun-13 00:13:51

“Allah has lifted fasting and half the prayer from the traveller, and the fast from pregnant and nursing women.” [Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, and Nasa’i]

sammythemummy Mon 10-Jun-13 08:34:38

lost I fasted while nursing my dd and eventually stopped nursing her, big mistake as it is the right of your child to bf. So I would not fast and make them up in the winter as fuzzy pointed out.

BTW assalaamu alaykum to everyone. I dont come to this section often as I am mostly in the special needs (my dd is speech delayed). But hope everyone's well smile

HardlyEverHoovers Mon 10-Jun-13 15:14:04

Asalam u alikum sammythemummy nice to see you here!

My understanding of the pregnancy/breastfeeding and ramadan issue is that you should fast unless you fear for the safety of you and your child. If it's the child you fear for, and not yourself, you need to give food to the poor as well as making up the fasts (that's in Shafi fiqh). I'll try and come back with proper references later when I have more time.

I tried to fast in pregnancy but only managed 10 days, it really affected me. I think I managed to fast while breastfeeding DS when he was about 6 months, can't remember if I missed any days. But I'm sure you're right sammy the right of breastfeeding means that you would need to stop fasting if it was significantly affecting your milk supply.

sammythemummy Mon 10-Jun-13 15:25:28

wa alaykumus salaam hardly love the name btw, I too hardly hoover.

Sorry for the confusion but I wasn;t talking about pregnancy and fasting, I also hold the Shafii opinion, although last pg I only managed a few.

But from my understanding you are exempt from fasting whilst nursing your child. Please do double check tho because Iv not checked for sources in years.

fuzzywuzzy Mon 10-Jun-13 15:58:47

I'm of Hanafi school of thought, consult an Imam or scholar near you inshallah.

I really think you need to put yourself and your childs needs first here. The days look set to be pretty hot, take the exemption as it is there for you.

I was listening to a lecture a while back and the scholar said we should gratefully accept these exemptions and thank Allah as not doing so is being ungrateful. I never looked at it like that before. But now I do.

MumuDeLulu Mon 10-Jun-13 20:56:28
HardlyEverHoovers Tue 11-Jun-13 20:28:29

Another breastfeeding/ramadan link!

spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=318&CATE=6

crescentmoon Thu 13-Jun-13 12:41:46

Salams sisters!

lost I'm kind of in the same dilemma about this Ramadan. I sincerely prayed last year not to have to do The holy month in the UK this year but Allah answered in a different way to what I expected (I'd hoped DH would get month off and we'd all go to Arabia or somewhere where sunset was at 6/7pm not 10pm!).

Iv already decided to sit out the whole month because of the hadith and in line with the Shaafiee legal school to pay the fidya as well as make up the days. which is for the baby's sake then you only need to make up the days but f not fasting for your own sake then you must feed a poor person for each day of Ramadan you miss as well as making up the days later. Jazakhallah fuzzy with that point about the sheikh saying to take the exceptions where you can- I had felt guilty and abit like I was 'fatawa shopping' but its there ad it would lift a big hardship off me.

I wish we could join prayers in Sunni Islam into 3 lots like the Shias do- I'm finding it very very hard to spread out the five across the day with work and dc and I'm joining them practically anyway. I'm also just too exhausted by magrib time (sunset) to wait for isha (nightfall) so I want to do magrib and isha together. Which isn't correct in the Shaafiee school but someone told me a fatawa of imam nawawi and I'm searching for it online!

LostAndNeverFound Thu 13-Jun-13 15:38:17

Salaam,

Thanks for all of the information. I've spoken with my mother in law and I've decided not to fast. I'm actually really sad about it as last year was my first ever Ramadan and I loved every minute of it. The first day was also when I started wearing hijab so it was really special for me. I just need to remember the health of my baby comes first and I'd like to remain breastfeeding for as long as possible.

Can I ask now then, with regards to making up the fasts. I thought you had to make up your lost fasts before the next Ramadan? So what if I'm still breastfeeding next year too, will I have to wait until I stop and then make up two months worth once I've stopped?

Fuzzy, I think what you said was really helpful with my decision not to fast, jazakallah khair.

Crescent, I'm struggling to pray at all at the moment. And I feel terrible for it. I too wish we could pray the Shia way. My mother in law is Shia, I've never actually asked her about the way she prays, I think I will when I see her tomorrow. As my father in law was Sunni my husband and brother/sister in laws follow the Sunni way although my husband follows no way at all.

crescentmoon Fri 14-Jun-13 07:20:50

You know what it is with me love? Doing wudhu 5 times a day. I constantly go to the bathroom as I did with my first 3 and so I can never keep wudhu/ablution long enough to last until the next prayer. Iv still not found a Sunni opinion which allows joining prayer except for when travelling long distances. The Shias pray the 5 Salah in 3 lots because of the Quran bit we Sunnis pray each of the 5 separately through the day because of the Sunnah of Muhammad (pbuh). What I do is delay dhuhr until asr nearly comes in and do both of them together. And I pray magrib on its own and then sleep af i pray isha just before fajr time. Which is not correct ad I know its my laziness. But that's the only way I can find right now. Even if u can't do 5 just try to pick one to do each day. Sometimes our guilt because of not doing it properly makes us not try to at all - I know iv suffered fro that with other things. Try and do fajr each day if little one has u up at that time anyway. Or isha late at night. Or aar in the afternoon. Just pick one and make the intention you'll stick to it and make a further intention to incorporate the others too at some point in the future. The basis of our relationship with Allah is prayer, ad actions are rewarded by their intentions.

I liked fuzzy s advice about dealing with her dd, I was worried inwardly that I was losing that closeness with Ds1 because I'm working but I know sis fuzzy works fulltime so its not that. My boy doesn't really care about timeout or naughty step- dd and ds2 howl at the prospect! - but i have found another way to psych him out and so far its working! wink.

Like you i feel i dont have enough time. I know women who can hold it together so much better- working/children/ marriage/in laws/ community work/ talks circles etc. same 24 hours like me but they are more organised and their time has more blessing in it. So that's the main supplication in making upto and through Ramadan too.

HardlyEverHoovers Fri 14-Jun-13 13:24:16

I used to struggle with the prayers too Lost, I did a similar thing to what crescent suggested, picked the easiest one and did that everyday, then the next easiest and then the next until I was doing all of them.
With the long days the whole maghrib/isha/fajr thing is really hard. There is an opinion that you can pray isha one hour after fajr between mid-May and end July, which helps.

fuzzywuzzy Fri 14-Jun-13 13:38:42

Don't be sad about not being able to fast this ramadan, be happy and thank Allah for his Mercy on us. With regards fasting next year, play it by ear see what happens if your nursing is the main source of food for your baby then I would not fast if your baby is feeding less and on other foods I'd give it a go.

As far as I know you will have to make up the fasts you miss so if you miss two in a row it will be two months owing!

With the lies thing, I also ensure I don't lie to my children in return for expecting the truth from them. It works Alhumdulillah.
There are three rules in our house, we don't hit, we try to be kind at all times, and we tell the truth. Everything else is merry chaos.

Can you just pray the farad of the salat so it makes it quicker, I guess it is difficult to maintain all five prayer times, but for me I'm nowhere close to bedtime even at Esha time, I must confess I prefer summer as I get all my salah in, during winter I do two out of five as there's no where here to pray, it really upsets me if I think about it.

crescentmoon Fri 14-Jun-13 23:03:59

salams rosiedays

heres a list of remembrance during pregnancy if you are interested. when i posted them at the time on the other thread i was still ignorant about my own condition so iv found myself slowly working my way through the list as well. trying to stay off mumsnet so i can read the Quran - im on the read Surah Yusuf every day stage although im trying to do it once a week!

taken from here: pregnancy advice from Sayyid Habib Omar:

www.muslimobgyn.com/1/post/2012/05/pregnancy-advice-from-sayyid-habib-omar.html

"The Intention:
You should make the intention of Sayyida Hanna - the mother of Mary, the mother of Jesus (may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon all of them). Sayyida Hanna (AS) dedicated the child in her womb to the service of Allah.

Her intention is described in the Quran:
“Lord, I have vowed to You, in dedication, what is in my womb for Your service. So accept this of me, for You hear and know all things} and {…I have named her Mary, and commend her to You with her seed, to protect them from the accursed Satan. Her Lord received the child with gracious favour, and caused her to grow up in goodly growth, and placed her in the care of Zakariya." (3:35-3:37)

and

"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah has chosen you and purified you --chosen you above the women of all nations.” (3:42)

In a lecture entitled, Jesus and his Blessed Mother, Habib ‘Ali al-Jifri attests to the sincerity and far-reaching consequences of Sayyida Hanna’s intention: “The intention of Hanna made the one she bore be accepted by Allah. She possessed an intention with Allah...when she intended that in her offspring there would be someone who serves Allah, someone who would serve this religion - when she was truthful in such an intention, Allah honored her because of her intention. Look at the effect of that intention: the very deliverance this Community will take place at the hands of our Master Jesus, peace be upon him.”

Repeat the following Quranic verses during pregnancy:

Rabbi hab li milladunka dhurriyatan tayyibah innaka sami`u-du`a
("O my Lord, grant me a progeny that is pure, for You hear (our) prayers!" 3:38)
Rabbana hab lana min azwajina wa dhurriyyatina qurrata `ayun wa’ja’lna lilmuttaqin imama
("Our Lord, grant us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous.”) (25:74)
Thumm ‘assabila yassarah
(“Then He made the path easy”) (80:20)
W’Allah akhrajakummin butuni ummahatikum
(“Allah brought you forth from your mothers’ wombs ”)(16:78)

Read Daily:
Sura Inshiqaq (sura 84) – to be recited on a daily basis throughout pregnancy
Sura Luqman (sura 31) – to be recited in the 1st trimester
Sura Yusuf (sura 12) – to be recited in the 2nd trimester
Sura Maryam (sura 19) - to be recited in the 3rd trimester as labour approaches

mamaLuLu i found that article from Kellymom very interesting on research about milk production and fasting. i found my supply divebombed but also that the composition changed too so i was nursing longer as my dc werent as satisfied.

hardly tell me again about isha prayer? give me a reference sis so i can look it up! if there was a way i could do magrib and isha at sunset then go to sleep i would be much happier but instead i wait until half an hour before the next prayer time before i do it. so one wudhu can let me pray 2 prayers lol.

LostAndNeverFound Sat 15-Jun-13 09:22:47

Don't be sad about not being able to fast this ramadan, be happy and thank Allah for his Mercy on us. Thanks again fuzzy, you've made me view it in a different light again, I really must not be

LostAndNeverFound Sat 15-Jun-13 09:28:26

Oops...

I really must not be so negative, I need to start focusing on the positives. I used up be such a positive person but I fear years of verbal rubbish is grinding me down!

Hardly, that's how I started after my pp bleeding stopped. I started with zuhr and asr, doing only the fard, but thats as far as I got!

I'm going to start today as I'm housebound with dd2 who has chicken pox!

Rosie, crescent posted that information on the last thread and I found it really helpful.

I really have learnt so much from this thread and got some amazing support, thanks all.

crescentmoon Sat 15-Jun-13 22:17:22

salams all,

fuzzy you said "Can you just pray the farad of the salat so it makes it quicker", and i bet thats because you follow hanafi madhab you say that because i only pray the fard hardly ever sunnah. sometimes i wish my parents had brought me up hanafi just so i would have learnt to pray the sunnah prayers automatically as i see many of my hanafi friends do. now as an adult im only too aware that the sunnah prayers are superogatory - not obligatory as the fard are - and i cant push myself to do them (i used to do witr but not even that anymore). whereas mashaallah hardly you came to Islam as an adult and you took the hanafi school and pray the sunnahs also which i really admire about you and other such converts.

about chicken pox none of the dc have caught it yet and now i cant be having it until next year. dont push yourself too hard with starting lost, just do one of them and continue for 40 days. thats how long it takes to establish a habit in Islam - 40 days. make it your intention that until the day you die you will always make sure you pray that one salah - e.g asr. then after 40 days add another prayer. and continue with that for 40 days.

i hate that you are putting up with verbal abuse/rubbish. of course that will get you down and affect your ability to worship. work on sorting that also, other things will then fall into place inshaallah.

iv never missed a whole ramadan before - iv always done one day fast one day no fast during my previous pregnancies and nursing dc afterwards. but this year, and probably next, i will not be making up the fasts until winter 2014 at least!

do you give out qurbani/aqiqah/zakah/fidya amongst the poor in your own society or amongst the poor in the parts of the world where it is extremely poor? i found this fatawa interesting about the order of acts one must do if they break an oath intentionally:

islamqa.info/en/ref/112403

where the Quran says to feed 10 poor people "on a scale of the average of that with which you feed your own families" (5:89). it seems then to point to ones own living standards rather than sending it abroad as so many do (including myself). but that is when breaking a wallahi. the next question is is it for a meal a day or for 3 square meals a day?

fuzzywuzzy Sat 15-Jun-13 22:58:34

I've been taught that if you want to speak to Allah then pray Salah, if you want Allah to speak to you, recite the Quran.

Some days I just need to pray.

The way I deal with Salah is to pray slap bang at the beginning time so I don't forget and I'm not constantly worrying about forgetting.

Yes I am Hanafi, we've been taught to pray sunnah and Nafl as well, at salah time I get everyone up to pray including the children so it's automatic, my girls are used to it Alhumdulillah.

Also make intention to yourself and ask Allah to make it easy for you, I do that for Fajr, which is really hard for me and then I ask Allah to grant me a quick and restful sleep after Fajr, otherwise I have had days where I get up at 3am for Fajr and then watch the clock tick to 6am when I have to get up for work...those days have almost bought me to my knees.
I find when I make dua especially for Salah, it is swiftly answered.

And Alhumdulillah for the days when we are not required to perform salat, the days where I've had a week where work has been insane I feel deeply grateful that Allah has granted us respite one week of every month.

LostAndNeverFound Sun 16-Jun-13 09:10:57

Salaam,

I've always prayed the fard and sunnah, with the intention to pray the nafl in the future too. I feel like my life is such a whirlwind at the moment, I'm looking to the future when ds is slightly older and we're more settled, then I'll be able to fit in all 5 prayers inshallah.

Crescent I've never heard about the 40 days for something to be a habit, I'm going to take that on board. Day 1 started yesterday as I prayed once.

You definitely need to stay away from chicken pox, have you had it yourself? Some people say if you've had it then your baby is immune whilst pregnant and breastfeeding. However I'm not sure how proven this is and I'd never take the risk.

I've always wondered that myself about giving to the poor. I'm completely clueless and my H is also. He always relied on his dad for things like that hmm.

Fuzzy, I used to get that, some days I'd just need to pray. Often it was after a round of my husbands vicious tongue. On those days I'd pray 5 times, fard and sunnah, then make dua for myself and my husband then sob afterwards.

How old are your girls fuzzy? I think during Ramadan as its the summer holidays I'm going to get my 8 year old up with me to pray fajr. She's never actually prayed before, although she can recite it all. She needs at least 12 hours sleep a night still otherwise she can't function! Although she actually has 13 hours, she's normally in bed at 6.30! Last night she went up at 7 and is still fast asleep. My 3 year old however has been on the go since 6!

I'm probably going to disappear a bit over the next few weeks, I'll still be around but may not post that often. I've been in denial about moving house and now we have 3 weeks today until I have to hand my keys back. And we still have nowhere to live. I think we're going to end up at my mother in laws with all our furniture in storage until we find somewhere. 6 adults and 3 children in a 3 bed house won't make for easy living!! Wish me luck!

flowers

LostAndNeverFound Wed 19-Jun-13 20:41:00

Oh I killed the thread sad

grin

crescentmoon Wed 19-Jun-13 21:08:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LostAndNeverFound Sat 22-Jun-13 21:22:02

Salaam sisters, this thread has gone a bit quiet so I'm going to bump it up with yet another self absorbed post.

I was admitted to hospital last week and had to stay in a few days. I developed mastitis, had a temp of 39.6 and my pulse rate was 150 (should be 60-100) and so I was rushed onto a ward as they thought I was developing septicaemia. It was scary and I didn't have a clue what was happening. I was a bit delirious! They started me on iv antibiotics and put me on a drip. My baby boy was taken to my mother in laws for the night where he was very well looked after. The girls stayed at home with my husband.

Anyway, the cause of all this was not only mastitis but I had an abscess in my breast. Ouch. Because I stayed in two nights and was on a cocktail of painkillers I'm currently going cold turkey and switched to formula. I'm gutted. I'm still in agony and can't even move my arms due to being so engorged. DS has taken the switch amazingly alhamdulillah, and doesn't route for me anymore when he's hungry, he expects a bottle and guzzles 5oz in under 5 minutes! He's feeding 3 hourly instead of 2 hourly in the day and my husband did the night feeds last night. Just a shame I couldn't sleep because of the pain!!

crescent the house search is on hold at the moment, as is packing up the house. I have visions of us throwing everything in boxes and bin bags and having the headache of dealing with it at the other end! Two weeks tomorrow we have to move! Good luck with your house search. Are you renting at the moment as well? Yes you're right about moving being hell. It's so stressful.

How old are your DC? I think your eldest is a similar age to mine? And yes to the mentally winding down and needing them out the way. My DD's went to bed at 7.30 tonight and I was extremely twitchy! H had to make tea and it wasn't ready until 6.30!

I hope everyone else is well. I'm thinking of name changing soon as I think I've revealed far too much about myself recently! So if a random pops up on this thread it's me.

crescentmoon Sun 23-Jun-13 20:39:04

dont say self absorbed! i really hope other sisters post and join in i post like you sis to keep it going else this thread will die.

anything ladies start a new topic jump from mundane to divine anything goes on this thread!

i cant believe you were in hospital for a few days so sorry lost. mastitis is very serious, i had a mild case of it with ds2 but it was the reason i stopped breastfeeding him at 18 months as it became incredibly painful! mashaallah you have family around to take care of little baby but to be delirious and on a drip is so scary. iv alhamdullillah never been seriously sick or admitted to hospital for anything and neither have my dcs or dh but that can change tomorrow. i have to say alhamdullillah for every morning we wake up in good health and every night going to sleep without hearing of bad news.

great your little guy is taking formula mashaallah. you tried your best and this was out of your control so congrats you managed to breastfeed this long! and its good that your dh and other people can give baby the bottle, i am definitely not going to make this next baby as attached to me as ds2 did - i will express and pump just to be able to leave dh alone with the baby as i never could with ds2 for a year.

what a thing to happen just before you move house though. la illaha illallah! your so lucky youve got people around who you can rely on and can help you that way. thats something money cant buy.

because im so far away from family i always worried about being in a situation where i couldnt look after the children and who i could ask help from in that way. you can have friends as close as family but those links take awhile to build up and iv never rarely long enough in a place to get to eh stage where i could call someone in the dead of night and ask them to have my kids while i go to hospital. which is another reason im grateful i havent ever been in that situation!

yes moving is hell - we move often because of DHs career so even if we were in a position to buy we couldnt until he gets a permanent job. we always take 6 month contracts and renew as we go along. which is difficult - on your bike and all that - but thats what we need to do to get where we want to be! its harder for families which get given notice when the landlord wants the property back and never knowing when that will happen. its that insecurity that is harder to take.

i have left packing quite late in the past but im a dab hand at it now - i hate unpacking more than packing tbh! honestly call reinforcements in, its few times in your life when you can feel entitled to help from others and being a mother of a newborn is one of those times!

i can hear dc still chatting away between themselves since i sent them upto bed ages ago - im going to have to turn into dragon mummy soon!

took the dc to the park friday and y'day - in trying not to let them inherit my fear of dogs i hold myself when they run upto and want to play with them. i even find myself saying on occasion 'thats a handsome dog' or 'a lovely dog' (whilst stepping gingerly back as the dc rush forward!). since reading that article about the Maliki fiqh opinion on dogs iv loosened up a fair bit about the dc touching them. but DH is still one step away from bringing out hazmat suits, a decontamination unit and hosing the dc down after theyve been stroking or petting them lol. i do the 7 times washing myself but i leave it when it comes to the kids lol.

i hope fuzzy, hardly, naila, sammy, rosie, etc are all well and ok and have time to come along soon. good night sisters!

PetiteMum Sun 23-Jun-13 22:56:08

Asslamoalaikum everyone! Newbie here..... I'm 13wks pg with dc2. Already have a 3 yr old and have baaaaad morning sickness. Nice to see a Muslim tearoom, such a cute idea! So whereabouts does everyone live? I'm based near Croydon......

LostAtTheEndOfTheRainbow Mon 24-Jun-13 14:55:18

Walaikum asalaam PetiteMum, I'm glad you found us. It's a bit quiet at the moment so please help us keep the thread going!

Congratulations on your pregnancy. Morning sickeness is horrendous isn't it, it'll pass soon inshallah.

I'm not in London, I'm in one of the Home Counties so not a million miles away. Are you a revert?

crescent it's really hard packing when you have nowhere to go, I've not got any motivation at all. In the past I've been excited about moving to a new house so had everything packed with 3 weeks to go! It will all come together inshallah.

I find the dog thing interesting. I think it's healthy for children to not be scared of animals. My H has a dog that he keeps in his parents garden. I always tell my H to keep the dog away from me, not because I'm scared but because last summer he ran at me and slobbed his nose all over my dress just before I was going to pray. So that left me unable to and I was furious (his sisters are half the size of me so couldn't borrow any clothes). I ended up going home to get changed!

I hope your children went to sleep ok last night!

PetiteMum Mon 24-Jun-13 19:36:33

No Am not, but am married to one! Indeed, I just want it to end.... Such a long journey, much prefer the stork idea when it comes to delivering babies! Hehe

Hmmm..... Dogs....... No help here, I am scared of them and have yet to meet one that didn't smell funny to me.......

crescentmoon Tue 25-Jun-13 12:21:39

lol i prefer the stork idea too petitemum! its the tediousness of the 9 months that gets to me - and more if they are overdue! and then the newborn stage, and then the baby stage, the toddler stage - ych! for me the first 2 years are always just about patient perseverence!

you cant be half as embarressing as my mum though - the normal shaafiee aversion for dog hair or saliva just amplifies her fear and to this day whenever she sees one she starts muttering Ayatul Kursi under her breath and crosses the street!

lost i laughed about the dress thing. i read how in saudi arabia and iran more people are starting to keep dogs as pets over the last few years. my neighbours have a very friendly dog that likes to jump upto the fence when dc are in the garden and together they all make a big racket!

your husband is a convert then petit. how do you get on with his family?

PetiteMum Tue 25-Jun-13 20:45:14

Crescent, they are very open minded and his mum especially has a heart of gold. Can't say that about the extended family, but then we don't really see them much at all.... I feel quite lucky in this respect alhamdullilah? How about yourself, what's your background?

crescentmoon Thu 27-Jun-13 19:31:12

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

crescentmoon Thu 27-Jun-13 19:37:31

whoops i mean this one belly bandit...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BELLY-BANDIT-ORIGINAL-NUDE-POST-PREGNANCY-TUMMY-WRAP-/260739288722?pt=UK_Baby_Maternity_Pregnancy_MJ&var=&hash=item3cb545ce92

raisah Sun 30-Jun-13 11:48:35

I am new too and need a bit of encouragement to keep going during Ramadhan. I am a bit geographically isolated from other muslims so am glad I have a place where I can check into occasionally.

Salaams

fuzzywuzzy Sun 30-Jun-13 12:04:43

crescent the belly bandit seems ot be made out of slightly different material to the ebay one, it would be hard to tell which one would be best just form looking at the pictures, the reviews for belly bandit arent that great on amazon.

My mum tried ot get us to bind our stomachs post pregnancy as well, I couldnt deal with that, I wish I had but I could not put up with that along with all the other post partum healing processes.

Assalamualikum Raisah.

crescentmoon Wed 03-Jul-13 11:55:48

salams sisters!

thanks for the tip in the pm fuzzy about telescopic handles. i wanted the postnatal belt for posture as well as stomach binding as it would help me not to slouch during breastfeeding!

i found a brilliant short video by a Glasgow imam/sheikh on why Ramadan timetables differ so much within the same city.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVxkAvamKMs&feature=youtu.be

we thought that the rule about northern hemisphere fasting kicks in for the scandinavian muslims but for people in scotland and up north they also have to adjust magrib and fajr because they do not have true night. really interesting video

and heres a funny story from the daily heil,

"Justin Bieber stops concert in Turkey twice to honour Muslim call to prayer"

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2319291/Justin-Bieber-stops-concert-Turkey-twice-honour-Muslim-prayer.html

apparently he stopped his concert twice to allow people hear the adhan and then also to go and pray lol lol. could you have imagined that? ajeeb!

crescentmoon Sun 07-Jul-13 19:06:56
LostAtTheEndOfTheRainbow Tue 09-Jul-13 09:28:46

Salaam everyone, hope you're all well.

Thanks for those crescent. I haven't watched them yet my H has and said it was good.

Ramadan Mubarak for tomorrow.

rosiedays Tue 09-Jul-13 14:40:19

Oh ladies please help. Ramadan starts tomorrow and baby is due any day. I'm so happy she will be born in the holy month but how to cope with dh! ! It's his first Ramadan in UK without the support of family and friends. It's long. I'm going to need him on top form to help me. I want a special time not a moody git. I just want to cry. He always struggles and can be difficult ( I've removed myself from the relationship during Ramadan in the past as i can't cope with him)
Up till yesterday he had said he wasn't doing it this year. I understand his want and need to do it and feel awful for not wanting him too.
I don't know what to do , don't know how to support him when I'm going to need him supporting me!
What about when visitors come.? He even said last night it will be fine as he will have 2 weeks off and can sleep all day.
I'm distraught and just trying to hold it together. 38 weeks pregnant hot tired and hormonal. Please help.

Sweetsandchocolate Tue 09-Jul-13 15:47:42

Salaam all. I see that it's been posted before bout bf. I have a 3 mo, exclusively bf. I also take pentasa meds twice a day, it's ok to fast whilst on them, and I have done so in less hot Ramadans, but have to make sure I drink 2L in 24h to avoid dehydration (can lead to kidney damage according to my GI consultant). My SILs and my FIL are insisting I should fast, basically implying I have no real justification. I'm just worried about dehydration in this (glorious) hot weather that could cause a decrease in milk supply. Just interested in other people's views? should I fast every other day maybe and see how I go? I will of course make up all those missed smile

Sweetsandchocolate Tue 09-Jul-13 15:59:37

Just read your message Rosie. My DH gets moody and grumpy as well, and he yells at DC. I just keep me and DC out of his way and encourage him to go to Tarawih prayers at mosque so can be part of the community. I'm sorry you're so worried about it and I'm not offering great advice, but big hugs and good luck with your baby

crescentmoon Tue 09-Jul-13 17:01:55

the jihad of ramadan is not just leaving food and drink its about controlling the base self the same place where anger comes from. and its not on you rosie to have to compensate or tolerate him for fasting, or alleviate it for him. or allow him because he is moody - its supposed to be the holy month for you and the new baby to come too. its something he has to work on himself - the hadith on controlling one's tongue goes...

“Fasting is not (abstaining) from eating and drinking only, but also from vain speech and foul language. If one of you is being cursed or annoyed, he should say: ‘I am fasting, I am fasting.’” [Ibn Khuzaimah, Ibn Hibban. Sahih according to Imam Muslim’s criteria.]

this hadith is actually about controlling oneself from arguing/ answering back. and it is often quoted together with this other hadith...

"Allah does not need the fast of one who does not abandon false speech or acting according to his false speech.” [Sahih Bukhari]

if its a choice between giving up moodiness or giving up fasting in ramadan someone should give up their bad temper. its about self reflection and self cleansing - for most people ramadan is the month where individuals are calmer! the shaitan is locked up and all his minions so if someone finds they become worse during ramadan then really thats a deep fault within that person they cannot blame it on waswasa.

as for practical stuff. after having your baby dont take guests my love - i had an aqiqah after 7 days then i just took the rest of the 40 days off for myself and the new baby. its on people to cook and feed and host you not you doing it for other people. make this ramadan be about you and yours and your new baby's needs rosie not your DH!

sweets the fast this year is 19 hours long in some places here in the UK. if Allah the Most High has already given you the permission not to fast because of pregnancy/ breastfeeding what does it matter what SIL or FIL says? and i speak from experience! my family teased me even about fasting one day off/ one day on during previous ramadans when i was pregnant! when i stated my intention not to fast this year my mum was like 'women fast even under the hot sahara sun what are you complaining about'. but you know what sis? its the duration of the fast here in the UK and the fact that school is still on, work is still 9-5, they slow right right down in the muslim world during ramadan but we dont here in the west. if the fast ended even at 8pm - 8.30pm i could manage it. but it starts so early and finishes so late, and, well,

la yuqalifullahu nafsan illah wusaha....
"Allah does not burden a soul beyond that it can bear…" (2:286)

butttt my mum's words still rankled! so i decided to go with the harder opinion in the school of law i follow and leave the fast for later and pay the fidya as well on top of that. in the hanafi madhab it is either pay the fidya or make up the days. in the shaafiee school it is:

if you leave fasting during pregnancy for the sake of the baby (e.g you have a condition and medical advice is not to fast at all) then only make up the days after ramadan,
if you leave fasting during pregnancy for the sake of yourself then pay the fidya and also make up the days after ramadan.

heres a page on fidya and kaffarah during ramadan.

www.islamic-relief.org.uk/about-us/what-we-do/ramadan-2/fidya-and-kaffara/

fidya is "When someone cannot fast in Ramadan and cannot make them up afterwards (due to ill health or pregnancy) they pay for someone else to be fed.

It is at a rate of £4 per each day that is missed. (This should provide one person with 2 meals or two persons with 1 meal.) If someone misses all the fasts of Ramadan, it would amount to £120."

the concept of fidya is from the Quran:

(183) "O ye who believe! fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint.
(184) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill or on a journey, the prescribed number (should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (with hardship) is a ransom the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more of his own free will, it is better for him and it is better for you that ye fast, if ye only knew." (2:183-184)

"Kaffara is the compensation that you should give if you deliberately miss or break a fast in the month of Ramadan without a valid reason.

To atone for the missed/broken fast, someone must either fast continuously for 60 days, or feed 60 poor people at a rate of £4 per day per person. This amounts to £240 Kaffara for each missed/broken fast".


the concept of kaffarah is from hadith:

"Abu Hurairah (RA) reported that a man broke the fast in Ramadan (deliberately). The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) instructed him to atone for this by setting a slave free or to fast two continuous months or to feed sixty poor persons. (Muslim)"

in modern times this has been reduced to either fast two consecutive months or feed 60 poor persons. but im not sure about what the delineations are between the 4 madhabs on kaffarah are.

crescentmoon Tue 09-Jul-13 17:23:06

gosh sorry for that epic post, my DH just becomes incommunicado during ramadan. he goes to work then comes home tries to complete the daily one portion of the quran, then goes to sleep, then wakes up at iftar time, then goes to mosque for magrib and sometimes back again for tirawee. one year he took a week off work and went for itikaf for the last 10 days of ramadan. i used to resent him tbh that he could detach from family life and focus on what he wanted to do deen wise whereas i was in the thick of it with cooking and the dc!

i watched the ramadan programme on 4od (you can catch it here its nice)

www.channel4.com/programmes/4ramadan/4od#3545241

and thought 'gosh i wish i could take 10 days out of busy life and stay in the mosque and go into seclusion for the end of ramadan'. its hard if you have a job or commitments but iv heard of many men who take that time off specifically! harder for sisters i feel - possibly because we would miss not seeing our kids for 10 days straight lol!

but alhamdullillah i know Allah knows all and rewards for good intentions even if you cant follow through with the action. (though i have good intentions ALL the time but barely put anything into practise haha!)

littleducks Tue 09-Jul-13 18:21:21

Nice to see this thread back in active convos, I won't be fasting this year as am 6.5 months pregnant (and tbh am barely coping with that and the heat) which I'm grateful for as the days are long but also sad about as I feel detached from the excitement.

Will be glad when school ends and we can keep kids up for Iftar at mosque and then some lies ins!

Sweetsandchocolate Tue 09-Jul-13 19:55:21

With you there ducks about school finishing. I'm looking forward to time at home with DC (ask me again in 6 weeks lol).

Thanks Crescent for your advice, may Allah swt bless you. I really want to spend this Ramadan reading Quran (I only just learnt how to read, alhumdulilah), praying on time, doing tarawih and looking after my family. Last year I was a couple of months pregnant with severe nausea, and just laid on the sofa all day not being able to move, barely able to look after DC, house, cooking... How is that spiritual?! I will try fasting inshallah and see how it goes x

rosiedays Tue 09-Jul-13 21:38:59

Thank you so much crescent moon you are a wise and kind sister. Your words calmed me and have helped me put things into perspective. I lived in and loved the Muslim culture for 7 yyears. It is so different here though. So easy to fall back to western ways and ideas. Dh has been dancing round the house singing Ramadan songs to bump. He is a good man. he has been amazing during my pregnancy. I couldn't have asked for a better dh. Inshalla all will be ok. He is talking to his dm now. She will not mince her words with him.
Ramadan kareem to all

rosiedays Tue 09-Jul-13 21:47:44

Thank you so much crescent moon you are a wise and kind sister. Your words calmed me and have helped me put things into perspective. I lived in and loved the Muslim culture for 7 yyears. It is so different here though. So easy to fall back to western ways and ideas. Dh has been dancing round the house singing Ramadan songs to bump. He is a good man. he has been amazing during my pregnancy. I couldn't have asked for a better dh. Inshalla all will be ok. He is talking to his dm now. She will not mince her words with him.
Ramadan kareem to all

mizu Tue 09-Jul-13 22:10:55

Ramadan Mubarak ladies for tomorrow.

smile

DH is Muslim and it will be hard this year. I am preparing myself too for a bit of a grumpy and tired husband for the next month.

Rosie, my DS was born during Ramadan, the first XH and I spent together. The two weeks before were fine, lazing around, easy. The problem was when I went into labour at 2am and he had to drive us an hour and a half across county (long story don't ask) so ended up missing last meal/drink. He fasted all through and was worse than useless to me during labour and due to tiredness/not functioning properly he missed the moment of birth. I told him if it ever happened that way again (not likely now lol) I would want him to consult an imam about breaking the fast while his wife is in labour and making it up/paying the tithe for it because of the need to support his wife being greater than the need to fast. I don't know if there is precedent for it but there may be, and although my XH is very conscientious about fasting he has missed a day before due to great need so it is possible.
I would advise you to talk to him about it tomorrow after Iftar. Or soon in any case to allow him to mull it over and seek advice.

And Ramadan Mubarak! I will be fasting as much as I can this month, though I'm not religious, I just enjoyed it so much last year!

HoppinMad Tue 09-Jul-13 23:57:21

Ramadhan mubarak people grin finished my taraweeh and thinking I really should sleep as have to be up for iftar soon.
Going to be pretty tough this year, especially with this current heat and humidity.. But lets hope we reap as much benefit as possible without complaining all the time iA. Anyone else made a Ramadhan resolution? Mine is to have more sabr with the dc and stop - or drastically cut down atleast with the swear words blush awful I am.

Peace and love to all.

Sweetsandchocolate Wed 10-Jul-13 14:45:27

Blooming aunty flo angry Not had one since DS born, and today she arrives!



Ramadan Mubarak to you all x

HoppinMad Wed 10-Jul-13 19:21:23

Aw thats pretty rotten isnt it sad

Was practically salivating whilst feeding the dc, but so far so good alhamdulillah grin

Doh! Just realised i put iftar instead of suhoor in my pp.

crescentmoon Wed 10-Jul-13 20:20:34

ramadan kareem, ramadan mubarak rosie, littleducks, hoppin, sweets, fuzzy, lost, naila, mizu, hardly, slobs, goshann, blue, raisa, defuse, optimist, those are the posters i can think of from the top of my head!

hows the first day going? last year we had a slow cooker ramadan - i cooked very little just got everything ready early and had one meal with main starters. this year, i am...... working on a culinary extravaganza haha! still have the slow cooker working away but iv got time to put some other stuff together! energy as well - last year i was practically comatose but actually , work, dc, having iftar so late makes it easier to prepare food!

crescentmoon Wed 10-Jul-13 20:23:52

ehric ramadan mubarak sis!

yes that happened to me too last year sweets aunty flo came along on the first day and it was a very anticlimatic start to ramadan lol.

sweets my mum called me this morning and said 'so are you fasting?' and i could see her shaking her head down the phone! i spent the afternoon on this website...

ramadanfastingandpregnancy.wordpress.com/

and reading through the studies and papers and it really had me thinking. im going to try and fast tomorrow and see how it goes through the day inshaallah. it means eating and drinking loads today though!

Cuddledup Wed 10-Jul-13 21:16:48

HI everyone, I haven't been lurking on MN for ages, but I just wanted to wish you all a good Ramadan. I really admire your commitment to your faith.(I'm a non muslim) BTW I saw the Channel 4 prog about Ramadan and it was fabulous, me and my dd learned lots.
Crescent congratulations on your bump ! What wonderful news. XXXX

rosiedays Wed 10-Jul-13 22:14:16

Ramadan kareem. Today has been lovely. I spent the day making lots of dh favourite food from home. He came in from work very happy slept for a few hours then we ate togethe. Humdulla. Xx

Sweetsandchocolate Wed 10-Jul-13 23:35:21

Crescent - thanks for the link, I'll read it tomorrow (it's too late for 42 pages lol). You're very knowledgeable and I really appreciate your advice, mashAllah.

Do you know much about istihada and haidh?

HoppinMad Wed 10-Jul-13 23:51:46

First fast over and alhamdulillah wa shukrillah I am so happy, a lot easier than I expected. Had bursts of energy throughout the day, and got loads more done than I normally do. Strange eh! will probably have to eat my words tomorrow, excuse the pun

Crescent - Iftar sounds lovely and indulgent at your house! <jealous> we are having very simple dinners this year. DH is determined to stick to basic, healthy foods only.. which obviously leaves out all fried foods and desserts and all the gluttony things I am used to eating in Ramadhan! He is on doctor's orders so I would hate to eat them foods in front of him after he has gone hungry all day. Oh the things we do out of love!

SunshineBossaNova Thu 11-Jul-13 00:36:06

Hello all
I'm not a Muslim, but wanted to wish you Ramadan Mubarak xx

HoppinMad Thu 11-Jul-13 23:38:22

Thank you sunshine smile x

crescentmoon Fri 12-Jul-13 07:34:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HoppinMad Mon 15-Jul-13 00:35:39

crescent what happened? You removed your thread??

I hope all is well with you and all the other MNers this Ramadhan. Loving the Ibaadah side of things, but I for one am struggling in the night. Trying to sleep at 12am after taraweeh and waking up at 2.30am to eat when everything tastes pretty grim, then sleeping again 4ish to be awoken by the dc between 6-7am. Its harder than I thought it would be.
Aunt Flo should be visiting any day, I hate to admit it but I think I will enjoy the rest. God I sound awful and weak sad

HoppinMad Mon 15-Jul-13 00:36:23

Thread - post of course.

LostAtTheEndOfTheRainbow Mon 15-Jul-13 09:24:17

Salaam sisters, how are you all? Thanks to the non Muslims who wished us Ramadan Mubarak.

HoppinMad, I'm really struggling too. Last year was my first Ramadan and I found it incredibly easy. This year I have a 13 week old who's just getting over chicken pox and has a chest infection. I'm surviving on 2 hours broken sleep sad.

I've got a lot of other stressful things going on, so I feel a bit down in the dumps. I've only been praying 3 times a day and not even the taraweeh which I'm really upset about.

Crescent I saw the programme about British Ramadan, it was really interesting. If I had my way I too would be eating soup for iftar! I don't know why but I was shocked at the appearance of the revert men. Passing them on the street you wouldn't have a clue that they were Muslim. That's why I like that I wear my headscarf, I get acknowledged by other Muslims.

Crescent are you fasting at all? How are you finding it if you are?

I'm sure I'll be back on soon to have another moan about my life grin

crescentmoon Tue 16-Jul-13 13:15:05

salams lovelies,

i fasted thursday and saturday and now today. delirious with hunger but it really makes me think about is there really a God watching me? its easy to say 'i believe' but ramadan is the pillar of islam that really gets me thinking on that question - God Consciousness, because it hits me where it hurts - my stomach! im so much more aware of Allah watching than i am the rest of the year, and like i do my annual 'evidences for hijab' reading only during the summer when it starts to get hot (!), during ramadan i start thinking about our deen and what it means alot more than the rest of the year.

i wish i had my mums lovely cooking to look forward to at the end of ramadan. May Allah bless her and all the other aunties and grandmas who made this month so fun and special for us when we were children. i really feel the pressure of making ramadan something my children grow up with having fond memories and traditions from. not just the food but other customs. read this lovely article about 'creating ramadan traditions' and i really felt inspired by it.

seekersguidance.org/blog/2010/08/creating-ramadan-traditions/

i love this nasheed forget the kids even i get happy and excited when its on!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMdsa4z2nkY

'Ramadan Moon' by Yusuf Islam aka Cat Stevens. 'moon moon come out soon we want to see the ramadan moon, clouds shift, fog lift, city put out your lights....'.

another nasheed on ramadan

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NDDyZCxEsw

'ramadan el sana di' it has different children singing about ramadan in different languages. its really sweet


i deleted the post because i thought it killed the thread! and i thought maybe i was abit insensitive too with some things.

yday i stored away all my fiction books to try and make more time to read the Quran daily (detox really!). im trying to read the mountains of books i have on religion but i find islamic history books more easier than books on fiqh or deen or spirituality. because it doesnt carry any expectation of me to change it just informs me, i can read theoretical books on islam too - about the environment, law, that are just theory of deen not about practise. its when it comes to 'action' books that i find it hardgoing to get through. does anyone else know what im talking about.

like, i find it easier to say 'la illaha illallah' than to say 'astaghfirullah'. saying subhanallah 100 times or 100 salawat on the prophet (pbuh) is easier on my tongue than asking forgiveness and having to engage with that and practise the 'turning away from' that seeking repentance requires. does anyone else know what im talking about? im just grateful there are different doors to Allah.

crescentmoon Tue 16-Jul-13 13:19:26

sorry for repeating myself twice.

oh and how could i forget 'welcome o ramadan' by zain bhikha?

'welcome O ramadan, You are honoured, Oh month of the quran'.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5OZa3t9aEs

Sweetsandchocolate Wed 17-Jul-13 00:03:49

Thanks Crescent for all those links, some really beautiful nasheeds mashAllah. The other link was interesting, has given me some ideas for activities for the DC over the summer hols.

Has anyone got Ramadan calendars for their DC? I'm no good at arts n crafts so would love to buy one, that can be used every year. Any ideas where I can buy one?Or ideas on how to make one?

crescentmoon Wed 17-Jul-13 15:09:09

ramadan calenders on etsy.com by khadija annette...

www.etsy.com/shop/khadijaannette?section_id=13690312

David Cameron's ramadan kareem message (yup he does actually say ramadan kareem!) 1min 26

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/video-news/video-ramadan-2013-message-from-david-cameron-29409529.html

sis lost i forgot to say this yday but its great your doing 3 prayers a day. even to do one for 40 days continuously is great. in a hadith muhammad (pbuh) said:

"Allah loves those acts which are consistent, although they may appear small and insignificant to you, but with Allah (Subhanu wa ta’ala), they are highly regarded and that is what really matters".

with charity, prayer, anything. im so sorry to hear about little one being unwell, theres a bug going round here as well.

"I don't know why but I was shocked at the appearance of the revert men. Passing them on the street you wouldn't have a clue that they were Muslim. That's why I like that I wear my headscarf, I get acknowledged by other Muslims. "

theres focus on female converts but theres a large amount of male converts too but they are less visible. some take their shahadah, change their name, grow a beard, start wearing the arabic thawb and some men just carry on as normal. just like other muslims really! the difference between the ones who are happy to say/spread salam and the ones who do not want to be acknowledged as muslim. im careful even when i see a hijabi sister in a bank or an office not to say salam unless she wants to acknowledge it first. from experience theres lots of funny undercurrents with that. its good to see muslims in different guises, i was more shocked about the motorbike brothers iv never seen that before!

rosiedays Wed 17-Jul-13 18:11:09

Oh ladies please thank Allah for the safe arrival of my beautiful baby girl yesterday. El humdulla. Things did not go to well and it was getting very scary. Dh started saying Quarn to bump and an amazing egyptain Muslim Dr arrived as if sent by Allah. He and dh spoke in Arabic and I instantly felt calm. Just hearing the beautiful language and reference to God in every sentence was so reassuring. the Dr took over and sent mw's away. He and dh delivered our beautiful girl and

rosiedays Wed 17-Jul-13 18:14:56

Recited Azan together. It was beautiful and amazing for me that my Ramadan baby was delivered by a Dr who's name was Islam.

theidiot Wed 17-Jul-13 21:51:01

Ramadan Kareem.

Congratulations on your ramadan baby Rosiedays, May Allah make her the coolness of your eyes.

I wasn't fasting during the start either, I know some people use the fact that women in Islam cannot carry out acts of ritual worship as a rod to beat us with, but I was thankful, fasting, doing school runs, going work and then laying on an iftar in this heat is no joke.

Right now I'm concentrating on putting one normal meal on the table and we have lots of fruit and water and a Rose scented milk drink (with a scoop of clotted cream ice cream!). I don't mind not eating in this heat, my appetite is usually non existent in hot weather anyway, but having to carry on a normal working day is exhausting. Luckily I'm off to my mums tomorrow so I will only need to worry about work, my mum will take care of the food and the childcare for me (yeay for mummies). My girls are fighting me all the way with my fasting ban on them, They've told me they're going to fast when they are at nanas, I'm going to let them then as they'll be at home and able to rest and my mum will notice if they're flagging and make sure they eat when neccessary.

I can't be too bothered with suhoors, yesterday I had an ice lolly and a cup of chai, altho I do try to have a sensible meal I'm going for porridge tomorrow inshallah.

There's a part of me that never grew up and can't quite get over the autonomy of being able to choose whatever I want for meals! lol

Crescent listen to your body, if you can't fast then don't force yourself, Allah has given exemptions to us in his Mercy accept his Mercy.

fuzzywuzzy Wed 17-Jul-13 21:55:00

that was me, I have no idea how my username turned into that shock

crescentmoon Wed 17-Jul-13 22:17:40

rosie thats a lovely story mashaallah! i also feel reassured when i hear God mentioned - even when someone doesnt say i say 'inshaallah' under my breath! how lovely a ramadan baby! i love that they read the adhan together as well - that must have been such a comfort for you and DH.

May Allah give you a long life for your lovely baby and give her a long life for you. let her be the coolness of your's and your husband's eyes, and she ia the fruit from which good is hoped Inshaallah Ameen. you gotta tell us your labour story in time!

fuzzy thats so random love! enjoyed reading your post though - yay for mummies indeed. i didnt fast today, and probably not tomorrow but il try again in a few days. dont worry im listening to my body sis.
chai ummm. i love kashmiri tea - not the salty one - bleugh!!! - but the pretty pink tea. i still dont get the colour with the taste but its delicious!

sis try and go for sensible. whats helping me alot is watermelon. on the days i fasted i ate alot of watermelon for suhur because it really keeps you hydrated more than water even!

CoteDAzur Fri 19-Jul-13 22:42:52

Just popping in to say Happy Ramadan smile

I'm on the beach in sunny Turkey, trying not to gain weight with the incredibly delicious food in loooong open buffet dinners. (Another kind of diet restriction entirely!) And mighty glad that wearing bikinis and eating away during Ramadan are still legal in this Muslim country grin

CoteDAzur Fri 19-Jul-13 22:43:21

Congratulations, rosie smile

crescentmoon Mon 22-Jul-13 17:01:44

salam or peace cote,

hope your having a great holiday - enjoy the beach! surely you meant bURqini right? grin only messing. my cousin is off to IStanbul right after ramadan for her friend's wedding, i wish i could go with her!

depressing stuff last week about those nail bombs in mosques - theyve linked one of the suspects to the murder of the elderly pensioner Mr Saleem. the police have been great with the investigations, the politicians not so much....

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/22/government-silence-british-muslims-attacks

a positive story if you cant get through the timesonline firewall

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/21/muslims-give-most_n_3630830.html

comments under both articles are depressing. im finding myself very thin skinned at the moment i dont know why.

hope ramadan is going well my sisters. nearly half way through now inshaallah.

fuzzywuzzy Tue 23-Jul-13 11:43:09

you're not the only one Crescent I feel it too.

crescentmoon Tue 23-Jul-13 14:43:25

yes fuzzy i used to laugh or shake my head at such comments. but theres just so much crapness in the world and in the ummah i find it hard to stay upbeat. the dua i make for my kids is that they dont grow up with this much in your face islamophobia as we have had to. and that they need not be so aware of their 'place' in the world, that it is more equitable. we're stuck in the time of patient endurance, and ask ourselves 'when will the help of God come?'. and in the meantime we just have to keep the faith.