The new pope

(122 Posts)
PedroPonyLikesCrisps Wed 13-Mar-13 23:41:34

So this is the guy who is strongly against gay marriage and adoption and of whom the Argentine president said that the church under his rule in Argentina was reminiscent of the inquisition and the dark ages.

Is this really the kind of guy we want running the most powerful religious organisation in the world?

LineRunner Wed 13-Mar-13 23:43:13

I am sad he apparently has baggage.

ProPerformer Wed 13-Mar-13 23:55:18

In short: NO!!

In my view anyone so bigoted cannot be godly. Others may disagree though!

marjproops Thu 14-Mar-13 16:42:19

ADOPTION???? ADOPTION?????????

That wasnt a typo for abortion was it?

I guess I can understand the churches view (rightly or wrongly) on gays and abortion, but ADOPTION????? WTH is wrong with THAT???

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Thu 14-Mar-13 19:00:52

No typo, that's genuinely his position.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Thu 14-Mar-13 19:02:04

Mind you, gay abortion would make for an interesting topic.....

Redbindy Fri 15-Mar-13 20:08:53

A pope who (allegedly)endorses torture is not a new thing.the borgias would have been proud.

MaryBS Sat 16-Mar-13 10:17:54

I'm not sure you have a say in it though Pedro grin. Any one of those Cardinals would be the same re: gay marriage and adoption, and I don't have a lot of faith in anything the Argentine president says, given her stance on the Falklands.

I wasn't very keen on the last Pope either, although when he was a Cardinal, he was apparently a liberal confused

meditrina Sat 16-Mar-13 10:22:48

The rhetoric from the Argentine government about him isn't neutral: he was a public critic of their actions. And indeed could have been classed as acting as ier enemy (eg lending his identity to help a persecuted individual escape).

MrsJREwing Sat 16-Mar-13 10:23:46

Adoption, how odd?!

meditrina Sat 16-Mar-13 10:28:40

Why is it odd? He said that children should be adopted by heterosexual couples as it is good for families to have both a woman and a man within them.

His role is surely to set out what the Church sees as ideal. At least he's one of the few who has spoken publicly in a way that recognises that real people in real life do not necessarily live that way, but they are still valued members of the congregation.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sat 16-Mar-13 19:33:56

It's less odd and more bigoted. Why shouldn't gay couples adopt if they can offer as a good a home as a heterosexual couple?

Any stance prejudicing against gay people is bad enough but when it comes from someone in such an 'esteemed' position it's verging on criminal.

You wouldn't be so blasé about it if the Church actively encouraged prejudices against women..... wait.... do they do that too?

Feilefoo Sat 16-Mar-13 19:41:07

I would have been more surprised if they'd elected a free-thinking Unitarian type. i don't see how a guy can become a cardinal without being conservative and bigoted.

I am more amazed they elected another old guy; we'll be doing this again soon.

Feilefoo Sat 16-Mar-13 19:44:38

And he's apparently against violence towards homosexuals, which is a teeny tiny glance in the right direction. Though being against them having the opportunity to adopt or get married pretty much negates any positives there.

LineRunner Sat 16-Mar-13 19:51:47

'And he's apparently against violence towards homosexuals'

That's kind of the law, right?

Pedro,sadly it's a done deal. He's in & of course he has to stick to the party line.

He doesn't care if we disagree, nor does the church.

Feilefoo Sat 16-Mar-13 21:43:53

Of course it's the law, and its sad that everyone is so excited that he has such a liberal position on that.

It's sad that everyone is excited about the election of yet another bigoted anti women leader Feilfoo .

Liberal is NOT a word that applies to him!

sieglinde Mon 18-Mar-13 10:18:05

What's actually sad is the tireless vocal RC-bashing. What do you hope to achieve? Support for one another? The 'conversion' of those of us who are still RC? You know, we do get it. Anyone who doesn't think like you is - bigoted... because that makes so much sense.

I'm starting to think it's YOU who are the bigots.

I get that not all of you are happy that the church or even any faith exists, and I also get your especial reservations, some/most of which I entirely share, but given that if St Francis himself were Pope you'd find a rock to throw, why should I take any interest in your particular murmurings this time around? You all said the same KIND of thing about the last pope and the one before...

And let me be clear. I don't give a flying FUCK about the Falklands.

Sieg

I am a Catholic. I am also gay.

I respect everyones right to follow their religion even if I disagree with its tenets.

However it is one thing to quietly state that these are the views of the church & quite another to make a large section of the said church feel evil outcasts. While at the same time covering up and enabling paedophiles to remain within the clergy so that the many many good works done by the church are overshadowed.

I will continue to pope bash until he comes up with a robust child protection strategy for the church & a full condemnation & prosecution of those responsible.

hiddenhome Mon 18-Mar-13 14:05:33

Well said sieglinde

LizzyDay Mon 18-Mar-13 17:22:42

I think it would be sad if places like MN were full of nothing but unquestioning adulation of the Pope and the practices of the Catholic hierarchy.

Or would it be better if it were like the 'good old days' before the internet when it was much easier for stuff to be swept under the carpet?

LizzyDay Mon 18-Mar-13 18:31:38

And another thing... the Catholic church is an unelected organisation which wields a lot of political power and influence around the world. It is only right that in a democratic society, its actions and policies should be questioned.

In fact, if it were a bona fide political party, it would probably be illegal for it to spout the stuff it does.

Of course it's not the only church / religion that this applies to.

LynetteScavo Mon 18-Mar-13 18:45:50

Were you really expecting a pope who wasn't against gay marriage/gay adoption, and who was suddenly going to announce woman can become priests? You sound surprised about the popes beliefs.

Times change...society seems to change a little quicker than the Catholic church, though.

LizzyDay Mon 18-Mar-13 18:52:24

Lynette - I don't think anyone's surprised, no. What's sad is that so many people unquestioningly accept it.

hiddenhome Mon 18-Mar-13 21:45:22

Why do people assume that the Catholic Church should change to fit in with modern society? The Church preaches the Gospel which has an unchanging message. Many people can't accept this message which is up to them, but why insist that our Church bends to fit in with a society whos norms are quite often totally against everything the Gospel teaches?

hiddenhome Mon 18-Mar-13 21:47:12

The churches who are losing their congregations the fastest are actually those whos message is ambiguous.

hiddenhome Mon 18-Mar-13 22:09:53

here is the catechism of the Catholic Church.

Christ instructed us to love God with all our hearts and minds and to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. What the Church believes and passes on to us is built on this.

LizzyDay Mon 18-Mar-13 22:11:40

hiddenhome - do you think that women and gay people should be officially made second class citizens in today's law as well as in the Gospels then? There are many parts of the world where they'd agree with you if so - would you rather live there?

hiddenhome Mon 18-Mar-13 22:21:55

We're not second class citizens? The Gospel doesn't preach this either. It calls men and women equally to love God and follow Him. How other countries arrange their systems politically is up to them, but the NT isn't based upon politics. Men and women have different roles within the Catholic Church and women aren't permitted to join the priesthood, but I accept that. If the new Pope suddenly does order that women can become priests then I'd accept that, but it wouldn't worry me if he doesn't.

The Gospel preaches dignity and respect for both men and women regardless of their age, sexuality, status, income etc.

hiddenhome Mon 18-Mar-13 22:34:47

People find the Gospel offensive because it confronts us with ourselves. People don't like this and will reject it. People also don't want to make the sacrifice that following God requires. They want the Gospel to be fluffy and user friendly. They grasp the second part - to love your neighbour as you love yourself - quite readily, but the first part - to love God, which involves being confronted with sin - not so much, so will kick against it. Instead of perceiving the Gospel message positively, people will just see it as a long list of You Can'ts which, again, they don't want.

So hiddenhome how do you square the churches teachings with its approach to criminal priests?

Feilefoo Tue 19-Mar-13 02:08:01

Bossy, I agree with you, I'm just no expressing myself very well!

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 19-Mar-13 07:47:51

"Times change...society seems to change a little quicker than the Catholic church, though."

Too right, the church has barely changed its views in 2000 years. It still seems to be living in an illiterate sub-saharan Africa.

JakeBullet Tue 19-Mar-13 09:01:24

I am catholic but there is a lot wrong with the Catholic Church. This new Pope has a history if living very simply and I am hopeful of his approach to the poor.

I do think that times have changed and the Bible and particularly the Gospels were written to safeguard the people living at those times. Childbirth was risky, makes sense therefore to try and keep families together and say adultery is not a great idea. Even Jesus did not condemn adultery....simply said you are forgiven....unlike the crowds who wanted to stone the woman in question....not sure what happened to the man.

Likewise there are good reasons for many things ....at the time. I don't feel Jesus would have an issue today with things like contraception. I have no reason for thinking that other than I think he was a measured and sensible man. Not do I think he would have any problem with condom use...in fact to prevent disease I suspect he would encourage it.

Aw....the little choir boy is so sweet.....watching the inauguration.

sieglinde Tue 19-Mar-13 09:32:16

LizzyDay, there is a lot of space between 'unquestioning adulation' and equally unquestioning abuse, I think. I think you will find most of us in that space. But I do think the abuse here has been well over the top and very very bigoted.

Bossy, I'm sorry to hear you feel excluded. I've been RC all my life, and have never heard ANYONE call gay people 'evil' - this seems utterly unlike the language of most Catholics I know. Issues of sexuality bulk much larger in the representation of the RC church in the press than they do in the lives of most Catholics.

Jake and others, pedophile priests are the SAME KIND OF PROBLEM as Jimmy Saville at the BBC - big organisation, culture of acceptance, then whistleblowing heeded and s-l-o-w correction. It's frustratingly slow, I know, but my own employer is equally sluggish in correcting abuses of all kinds. (Oxford University...)

Most RC parishes have now put in really tough safeguards... and the future looks much better than the past. Though....I've been RC all my life and have NEVER experienced ANY issues of this kind, and I think that the reportage, though justified, has left a disproportionate impression, though I'm also eager for these people to be bowled out and turned over to the police and the judicial system and then IF GUILTY placed out of the way of doing more harm.

I think over time - probably a lot of time - the actions against pedophiles will continue and I HOPE they will accelerate. Every Catholic I know hopes so. If that's not good enough, then tough, because the same criticisms can be levelled at many secular institutions - the Beeb, Manchester Music Academy, the boy scouts, the theatre (any Laurence Olivier fans here? I mean, he has a whole publicly funded BUILDING named after him!)....

Are you all also posting on Mumsnet about them, too? I'm betting no. grin

JakeBullet Tue 19-Mar-13 10:08:27

I have .no truck with paedophile priests. ...I do think the whole issue has been handled vrry badly. I agree though that any big organisation will have those who abuse positions of Trust.

Yes the RC church has massively tightened up. My friend who is a Catholic priest has to notify thr churches Safeguarding board of any child contact he has. ....it was a massive issue when I arranged to meet up with him while on holiday last year. We were simply snd coincidentally in the same place at the same time. He notified his Safeguarding board to be above board and they were veru clear about their disapproval. Honrst to God we just went on a day trip together but they were full of sdvice that he mustn't be alone with DS at any point. Hr wasn't. ..we had a day out then went our separate ways.

It's reassuring that they are now so tight about this.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 19-Mar-13 10:13:37

Sieglinde, I'm sure you are correct that the majority of "moderate" Catholics, especially in this country, are not against gay people. However, the problem comes when the head of the organisation is outwardly homophobic and preaches as such. There are hundreds of millions of Catholics who do not live in the UK, do not live in the 'Western' world and who don't have the same strength of mentality to push back or ignore the things they are told by the Pope.

This is not the same as Jimmy Saville, and not even the same as the RC child abuse scandal. The Director of the BBC never stood up and said child abuse is ok, and neither did the old Pope (although he did spend a lot of time trying to defend the priests which the BBC did not). But the new Pope is outwardly homophobic and that sends the wrong message to those who follow blindly or are repressed in a Catholic society and forced to live their rules.

sieglinde Tue 19-Mar-13 10:18:49

I agree, Jake. It has been handled badly, though no more badly than at the BBC or the Music School, but matters - as you rightly say - have now improved a LOT, and that should also be a cause of relief and even cautious rejoicing. Let's hope and pray for more progress, and more rapid progress at that.

And let me be clear - I think our harshest critics HAVE helped to bring about these improvements and will continue to do so.

Now let's hope for a breakthrough for the poor and the persecuted... especially the 200 million Christians who daily face terrible persecution (no, I don't mean a bit of Mumsnet nagging..) on account of their faith alone. Those of you keen on freedom of religion might want to ask your MPs why this isn't on the government's foreign policy agenda.

blondecat Tue 19-Mar-13 10:25:29

If Kirchner doesn't like him, I like him already

LizzyDay Tue 19-Mar-13 10:28:23

Re men and women having 'different roles' in the Catholic Church - how okay would this be if an employer said that they were only recruiting women into certain roles within the company, and men into others?

For example if Corporation X said you can only apply for support roles if you're a woman - and all other positions are for men only? Would you like to work there? Or would you find this distasteful, and say it should be illegal? So why is it okay to think like this just because an ancient book appears to condone it?

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 10:54:42

Catholics do not like the sex abuse scandals within the church and find it very saddening and distressing to hear about these things. Priests who have abused should feel the full force of the law and be prevented from working with the public ever again as far as I'm concerned.

Being a Catholic is about far more than just attending a church within a particular denomination though. People seem to think that those who remain Catholic must approving of everything our Church does, but we don't. We're Catholics because we believe in the Church that Christ entrusted to St Peter. We're not Protestant and we can't simply shrug our shoulders and say "Oh, well, I'll start going to another church if I can find one with more integrity". It's not as simple as that. I've posted on this site before that Catholics believe the Church to be the living body of Christ and the one and only Church.

As for the Church moving on. Compared to the Catholic Church's actions in the past I think it has moved on considerably smile We no longer burn heretics and Popes no longer have girlfriends or murder people. In that respect, it has moved on. Of course, wider society won't rest unti it has embraced the World's standards which isn't going to happen and if it did, it would lose vast numbers of people. I think perhaps we need a Papal Top Trumps to demonstrate just how bad some of the previous Popes were, and how we could in no way return to those times grin

I like what I see of the new Pope and I think he will be like a breath of fresh air. His speech this morning was truly great and I think he's going to be quite a leader smile

LizzyDay being part of the Church isn't akin to having a job and an employer. I feel called by God to the roles that I play in my life and I accept what the Church's teaching is. If it changes, then so be it, but I don't feel called to an endless quest to seek the liberal definition of equality in my spiritual life. It would be nice if women played a bigger role, but I don't remain up at night worrying about it.

sieglinde Tue 19-Mar-13 10:58:31

Pedro,

It's not clear to me why you link homophobia and pedophile priests, except that we all dislike them both!

Homophobia has nothing at all to do with child sex abuse. I also don't accept that Pope Francis is homophobic because he condemned same-sex marriage. Wrong, yes; homophobic, no.

No Pope has ever condoned child sexual abuse, and all RCs I know agree that it was not ideally handled, to say the least. Why is that different from the BBC?

I think you see it as different because you are lumping together two things you dislike that have nothing to do with one another. I might say, 'well, the license fee is an unjust method of funding public broadcasting,m and anyway they covered up the Saville affair.' This is notable for its lack of logic, but so too is the implicit equation you are making.

Homophobia was not btw created by the RC church, but inherited from the Romans (who were fine with mansex as long as you are the one doing the penetrating). I suspect the same is true in the developing world... though I agree the RC church is no great help in overcoming this problem. But would you prefer Pentecostalism, or Islam? They are both much more homophobic...

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 11:01:48

Pedro the new Pope isn't 'homophobic' any more than he's 'divorcephobic' or 'adulterphobic'. The Church's rules on chastity apply to all Catholics and apply to people who are homosexual equally. Its teaching on fornication apply to me just as they apply to a homosexual person. The person themselves aren't judged, only their actions. If I use contraception within my marriage, then I'm just as sinful as someone who sex outside of marriage within whatever sexual context. We are judged equally. Women and homosexuals aren't second class citizens to be cast out, but if we live a virtuous and chaste life then we're following the teaching of the Gospel. We all fall short of course wink

sieglinde Tue 19-Mar-13 11:05:30

Well said, hiddenhome! smile

LizzyDay Tue 19-Mar-13 13:12:46

"The Church's rules on chastity apply to all Catholics and apply to people who are homosexual equally. "

It's hardly fair or equal to say 'yes anyone can have sex as long as they're married' but then also say 'ah except that gay people can't get married of course'...

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 13:22:23

Those are the rules. The path to eternal life is narrow.

WhatKindofFool Tue 19-Mar-13 13:24:29

Yes, well said hiddenhome.

It is obvious from some of the posters on here that they have no understanding of the RC Church's teachings and doctrine. It seems to me to be the "in thing" to bash the Catholic Church and the Pope. There is a hatred about this. I wish these people would take the time to find out the real facts and stop spouting the same old rhetorical mis-information.

The Pope has tweeted this today "True power is service. The Pope must serve all people, especially the poor, the weak, the vulnerable."

I think we should take some time to focus on the good things that the Pope is saying. Look for the good instead of CONSTANTLY focusing on the negative.

sieglinde Tue 19-Mar-13 13:37:35

Actually, Lizzy, not everyone can have sex as long as they are married.... the rules are stricter than that. But they do apply to everyone, and could even be said to be MORE inconvenient for those of us who get pregnant....

Lovely and serious statement from the Holy Father.

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 13:40:13

Indeed, WhatKindofFool, this is why I linked to the Catechism. I thought the speech made by Pope Francis at Mass this morning was amazing and truly sums up everything that Christianity is.

I really do hope and pray that the Church heads in a more humble direction smile I loved what he said to that Cardinal when he told him that "carnival time is over" nice one grin

I fully believe in looking for the positive but in the case of Catholicism I just can't!
They are a patriarchal establishment trying to keep a large sector of society from joining the 21st century.
If the church is the body of Christ, then they have harbored pedophiles within that body, surely that is sacrilege?
The Nicine Decree (sp) was not formulated until three hundred years after the death of Christ, so how can Jesus have had anything to with it, oh and this was done under the rule of a pagan, Constantinine.
How can that have been approved by Jesus?

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 13:51:51

It is indeed sacrilege Maggie and I hope they are made to face up to what they have done, both in this life and in the next.

The Church has been formed over hundreds of years by various contributors, some good, some not so good, but, as we've heard this morning, that formation continues, hopefully in the right direction.

Some people are better at discerning Christ's will than others.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 19-Mar-13 14:36:07

"It's not clear to me why you link homophobia and pedophile priests, except that we all dislike them both!"

I didn't link them. You brought up the sex scandals, I distinctly said they were different to a homophobic leader preaching a homophobic message. That was the point I was making.

"Pedro the new Pope isn't 'homophobic' any more than he's 'divorcephobic' or 'adulterphobic'. The Church's rules on chastity apply to all Catholics and apply to people who are homosexual equally. ."

No they don't, you are suggesting that gay sex is ok in the Catholic Church as long as they are in a relationship? That's not the message that comes across. And besides, it's more than just sex, it's adoption as well. Telling a loving gay couple that they can't adopt a child is ludicrous and homophobic.

WhatKindofFool Tue 19-Mar-13 14:36:23

Maggie Surely, you can find one positive thing? This lent, my children who go to a Catholic school have been asked to save pennies for "St Joseph's Penny" www.caritassalford.org.uk/appeals/st-josephs-penny which is a RC charity to help local people in need. Is that not one, maybe small, good thing?

I'm sure you can find something good if you try.

WhatKindofFool Tue 19-Mar-13 14:41:01

No they don't, you are suggesting that gay sex is ok in the Catholic Church as long as they are in a relationship?

Pedro Nobody has suggested that. As hiddenhome said, all sex outside of marriage is forbidden.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 19-Mar-13 14:42:11

This is a quote from a 2010 letter which the now Pope wrote regarding Argentina's vote on gay adoption: "At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children, at stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God's law engraved in our hearts."

"Let us not be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God's plan. It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a 'move' of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 14:45:21

and? Pedro The Church believes that children should have both parents - mother and father - to raise them. They are entitled to hold that belief.

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 14:49:37

The Church doesn't agree with IVF either. Is it 'fertilisationophobic'?

marjproops Tue 19-Mar-13 16:58:52

Jesus, about adultery, to the poster that mentioned it...said 'your sins are forgiven''. yes. but read on. ''go and sin no more.''

Id rather have the church around than not have it. EVERY religion, EVERY culture has its good and bad.( would all this be discussed if it was the muslims/Krishna/Indian etc faiths?)

I think the reason the church gets slammed more than anything else is that people want to believe that SOMEONE somewhere is doing the right thing. and its supposed to be the church? (dont know if ive worded that right or making sense).

By all means everyone has a right to their opinions but please we're all supposed to be friends here, not slamming each others belief systems. can this be discussed more diplomatily?

As for the Bible being staid and 'not with the times', well, theres been rape/adultery/gang rape/murder/wars etc since the beginning of time, theres a gang rape story in the book of Genesis, so its absolutly with the times.

No, I dont agree with a lot of biblical/church policies but would anyone like Shakespearse writings to be modernised to 'street' talk (poor analogy but the only thing i can think of!!) yeh, innit, fierce mate, bruv.
Shakespeare is solid as is the Word.

HOpe that made sense and trying to be diplomatic!! smile

sieglinde Tue 19-Mar-13 17:12:24

Pedro said the Holy Father had said in the past:

"At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children, at stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God's law engraved in our hearts."

"Let us not be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God's plan. It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a 'move' of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."

I can't see that this is homophobic as it stands. It's illiberal, certainly, and it's strongly worded, but it describes same sex marriage legislation and not gay people as inspired by the devil. I don't agree with it, and I find it a bit hysterical, but I don;t see that this is homophobic. Isn't he entitled to say that he sees marriage as between a man and a woman? As entitled as you are to disagree with him?

As for the people who can see no good in the church - do you have ANY IDEA how much charitable work is done by priests, friars, and nuns, and by RC laypeople? I specifically cite the work of nuns with the refugee crisis in Syria, because it's in the news now, but I could cite a hundred things. CAFOD is a huge lifeline for the poor everywhere. www.cafod.org.uk/. Other big players are

Food for the Poor
Catholic Relief Services
Caritas International
Sisters of Charity
Catholic Charities
Society of St Vincent de Paul, which does a lot for the poor in the UK.

There are huge numbers of others.

JakeBullet Tue 19-Mar-13 17:16:38

I mentioned that one...yes hr did say "sin no more" but which of us can say we always get it right.? The key thing was forgiveness. ...and it might well have been a law to reduce the risk of illness. In which case Jesus would have had good reason to say "sin no more". We just don't know tbh. The keu for me os still forgiveness and love.

Loving the very knowledgeable folk on this thread btwgrin

LizzyDay Tue 19-Mar-13 17:34:29

Re the new 'humble' Pope - it's gobsmackingly obvious that electing a pope in this mould is a not-so-subtle PR move by an increasingly desperate leadership.

Saying 'well at least he's not as bad as all those other Popes' doesn't really cut it if you're looking at it from the outside.

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 17:41:09

cynic

LizzyDay Tue 19-Mar-13 17:43:17

The Catholic Church is a) wealthy b) powerful c) unelected d) opinionated.

I think that deserves a little hmm now and again.

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 17:46:00

Okay, but we will have to see what Pope Francis offers rather than just dismiss this as some sort of gimmick sad I, for one, hope that this does herald a better future. At least he seems to be addressing the wrongdoing that's been going on, this is what people want isn't it?

LizzyDay Tue 19-Mar-13 17:46:25

Oh and its teachings include 'stick with us and you'll get to heaven, don't and you'll rot in hell'. Lovely.

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 17:48:05

People are free to reject it of course.

LizzyDay Tue 19-Mar-13 17:48:55

Well he'd have to be pretty daft to be seen to be doing anything other than vigorously 'addressing the problems' - but let's hope some good does come of his leadership.

LizzyDay Tue 19-Mar-13 17:49:45

It's not a nice message, especially if you're a) young b) impressionable.

LizzyDay Tue 19-Mar-13 17:54:47

I have a DD who suffers with anxiety. She's petrified of all sorts of things in the world around her. I think it would be nothing short of evil to add 'rotting in hell' to her list of fears. Thank goodness she has avoided this sort of nonsense so far in her life - I can only hope she's allowed to continue to do so.

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 17:55:25

That's not what is taught and I think you know that hmm

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 17:57:49

The 'nonsense' of which you speak includes: treating others are you would be treated yourself, justice, peace, striving to be virtuous, not telling lies, not stealing etc.

Of course, you're going to come back and tell me that you can be all these things whilst you're an atheist too smile

LizzyDay Tue 19-Mar-13 18:01:23

Yes of course atheists can be nice smile

But what happens to them when they die?

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 18:04:38

I sometimes like to play Catholic Bashing Bingo on these threads.

So far we've had:

Paedophile Priests
Wicked Pope
Hell Fire and Brimstone
The Wealth of The Catholic Church
Homophobia
Believing is Nonsense
Religion damages children

I'm still waiting for:

Abortion
Imaginary Friend
We're deluded

Once we have those I win a Mars Bar grin

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 18:05:32

Oh, crap, it's Lent, I can't have one anyway hmm

<goes back to drawing board>

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 18:13:58

What happens when we die? I personally have no idea, but I believe the Catholic Church still believes in Purgatory (haven't investigated this though), where you gradually atone for your sins before being reunited with God <shaky theology, don't quote me on it>

I have no ideas on what Hell might be about or who gets sent there. I do believe that we're all judged and are confronted with our wrongdoing though.

Hell Fire and Brimstone isn't taught in the Catholic Church and I have yet to encounter anybody who actually believes it. Both my dcs attend Catholic schools and are only taught about love, grace, serving God, prayers etc. The older dc and I sometimes have discussions at home about more serious issues now that he's old enough to deal with that. On the whole he's pretty 'meh' about the whole religion thing, but would like to be confirmed.

specialsubject Tue 19-Mar-13 18:21:51

Robert Mugabe at the inauguration. Is that a good look?

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 18:22:20

this seems to explain things smile

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 18:23:03

No, I didn't like seeing him there hmm He's terrible. Gives the wrong impression certainly.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 19-Mar-13 18:36:14

"Pedro Nobody has suggested that. As hiddenhome said, all sex outside of marriage is forbidden."

But gays can't marry, ergo homophobic.

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 18:38:50

What do you understand of the Church's teaching on homosexuality? Have you had a chance to look at the catechism?

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 19-Mar-13 18:39:26

"and? Pedro The Church believes that children should have both parents - mother and father - to raise them. They are entitled to hold that belief."

They can believe what they like but to tell all the gays that they can't adopt is homophobic. Why should a loving gay couple not be able to provide just as good a home as a heterosexual couple?

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 18:41:48

Because the Church believes that children need both parents?

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 18:43:10

You are not going to square this circle. Whatever label you choose to assign to it, not everyone holds the same beliefs which is the mark of a free society is it not?

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 19-Mar-13 18:46:16

"As for the people who can see no good in the church - do you have ANY IDEA how much charitable work is done by priests, friars, and nuns, and by RC laypeople?"

The top nine charities in the world are secular, the top 5 individuals in the world in terms of charitable donations hold no religious beliefs.

Not saying that the church does no good, just no different to the rest of society.

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 18:48:19
PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 19-Mar-13 18:48:21

"Id rather have the church around than not have it. EVERY religion, EVERY culture has its good and bad.( would all this be discussed if it was the muslims/Krishna/Indian etc faiths?)"

Yes, the content would be slightly different of course, but the general issues are the same with most organised religions.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 19-Mar-13 18:51:49

Hidden, we're talking about the Pope here, not the church. The Pope has made his views on homosexuality quite clear. I'm also willing to bet that for every Internet link saying Catholics are pro gay, there's another saying the opposite. Part of the issue I see with all religion is that the messages are different depending on where you hear them from.

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 18:56:54

Did you even read my link? What the Pope says reflects the Church's teaching and the link states the Catholic Church's teaching.

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 19:02:34

I don't know what the point is of having these circular arguments confused

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 19:05:12

I think you made a statement in your OP and just expected everyone to sit around and have a good old gossip about this chap and generally chat about what a terrible thing him and his Church is hmm

I'm sorry that I invaded your thread.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 19-Mar-13 19:14:35

Don't be sorry. Debate is good. But i have read your thread and I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove with that. It's a hideous article full of contempt for homosexuals. If that's your view on things then fine, but it shouldn't be something that's widely preached in this day and age.

marjproops Tue 19-Mar-13 19:34:39

just a small point about adoption....there are a lot of single parents of ''blood''children, even in the churches....I know a single mum with an adopted child. better 1 loving parent than no parents at all? in an ideal world a child should have 2 parents but its not an ideal world. anyway, just a small point there! (this might be better on another forum.)

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 19:45:03

I'm not saying that single parents are wrong marjproops. Presumably, if a gay couple adopted a child then the other bio parent wouldn't be having contact with that child, so the child wouldn't have that other parent in their life.

Pedro your obsession with homosexuality is grating and to bring each and every observation about the Church down to questions of sexuality is equally grating. If you don't like what it teaches then don't be part of it. The Church finds much of modern society's values equally difficult to accept. It's just another viewpoint, which people are entitled to have. They're free to reject it if they choose.

marjproops Tue 19-Mar-13 19:52:22

hidden I wasnt getting at anyone! just making an observation!

Im Christian and a lone parent (good reason though).

As a Bible reader I do respect what the Word says. (mostly...dont agree with some of it but then again one reason Doubting Thomas is mentioned!) you know, the basic common sense principals.

At the same time it is written that we are not to judge. confusing. confused

juule Tue 19-Mar-13 19:53:29

"I'm not saying that single parents are wrong marjproops. Presumably, if a gay couple adopted a child then the other bio parent wouldn't be having contact with that child, so the child wouldn't have that other parent in their life. "

Not all children of single parents have contact with the other bio parent. So I'm not sure what point is being made with the above.

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 19:59:24

juule I'm of the belief that children of single parents should have contact with the other parent if they're still alive and providing that parent isn't abusive or represents a threat.

Viviennemary Tue 19-Mar-13 20:01:17

People look to the church for moral guidance. If they don't want moral guidance then they don't have to take it. I think the church is right to maintain its stance. I'm not saying I agree with it but I think it's good it remains unchanging.

LizzyDay Tue 19-Mar-13 20:08:28

"People look to the church for moral guidance."

Well therein lies the whole problem. Power corrupts, and all that. And to say 'well people can just ignore it if they don't agree' doesn't hold water. Whole societies are based on people looking to the church (ie other people, effectively) for moral guidance. And in a lot of societies, those who don't agree with the church are made outcasts.

demisemiquaver Tue 19-Mar-13 20:55:46

yes Lizzy...have you an opinion on the christian woman on death row for blasphemy in Pakistan ??

LizzyDay Tue 19-Mar-13 21:42:46

Er, I suppose my opinion would pretty much be exactly what I wrote in my last post. Just substitute the word 'church' for 'religion'.

WhatKindofFool Tue 19-Mar-13 22:15:53

Anti-religious atheists seem to think that they are intellectually superior to religious people. All this talk of the 1 billion Catholics who suffer at the blind following of the Pope. God bless all us poor idiots!

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 22:40:06

<crawls along the carpet suffering and wringing hands in front of statue of Our Lady>

<wishes Richard Dawkins had actually been elected Pope> confused

hiddenhome Tue 19-Mar-13 22:41:25

grin

Most of the Catholics I encounter seem to be happy souls and that includes our PP who is quite old and suffers from a serious health condition.

WhatKindofFool Tue 19-Mar-13 22:58:26

grin

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Wed 20-Mar-13 07:01:16

Ok, so what I'm understanding from hidden is that, generally, Catholics have no problem with gay people as long as they keep it to themselves and don't act upon it. What I'm struggling to get is how you can think this is tolerant. Isn't everyone supposed to be loved equally and have equal rights? Doesn't sound very balanced to me.

The reason, hidden, that I keep coming back to homosexuality is that it's the topic of the thread. You'll remember you almost dragged me into a child abuse debate but I think we managed to avoid that!

WhatKindofFool Wed 20-Mar-13 07:48:05

Pedro As far as I am aware, all of the main Christian faiths share the same view of homosexuality as the Catholic Church. The Anglican Church is no different in this respect.

I'm not saying that I agree with it (in fact, I don't agree) but I don't understand why some people focus on the Catholic religion instead of Christianity as a whole (and many other religions). I guess it is more socially acceptable to voice an intolerance of Catholics Than it is of Jews or Muslims.

JakeBullet Wed 20-Mar-13 07:59:55

I am Catholic and I don't care about the sexuality of anyone else. That is their business and not mine.
If we are talking about acting on desire then according to most religion it seems sex outside of trying to procreate is a sin. Do we stress about that with heterosexual relationships? No we dont so why would sex in a loving homosexual relationship be any different.
Each to their own and both our parish priests would say the same. Everyone is welcome regardless of their sexual orientation.

The thing for me ( and why I appreciate the Quakers) is why you cannot come together as a community, whole also allowing people to live, guided by his or her conscience.
If we are to be judged, surely there is no-one on earth worthy or capable of making those judgments in relation to spiritual well being, as we are totally incapable, whether we be the pope or the person next door, of looking into other peoples hearts, to see what truely lies within.

*while

WhatKindofFool Wed 20-Mar-13 13:26:25

I agree with you maggie.

sieglinde Wed 20-Mar-13 14:37:36

AGREE with Jake. None of us are perfect. IMHO, Jesus takes other sins MUCH more seriously, especially sins of uncharity to the poor and judgement/bullying of others. That's not to say you can do as you like... but I'd worry more about the gluttony of the West than about same-sex love. It's still love.

marjproops Wed 20-Mar-13 17:53:09

whatkindoffool. good points.

does anyone know what exactly ARE the views from Jews/muslims etc on these issues?

WhatKindofFool Wed 20-Mar-13 18:26:03

As far as I understand, Islam is absolutely against homosexuality. Judaism varies depending upon how orthodox you are - orthodox is against but other sections of the religion are far more liberal.

marjproops Wed 20-Mar-13 18:36:25

Okay, so why isnt anyone slamming the muslim faith then? (not that anyone should)

why? cos its not pc. and anyone who does is rascist/bigotted/prejudiced according to the pc brigade.

not saying anyone on here is, Im just wondering
why it seems okay to slam the Christian/catholic church, thats okay then?

please correct me if Im wrong.

same with stand up comics.
they cant say 'englishman irishman scotsman ' jokes any more or Jewish jokes ,or unless you're Lenny Henry cant do a Jamaican accent or any other if youre not of that culture/colour, but its still okay (Jimmy Carr, Russel Brand and Frankie Boylke Im looking at you) to still make fun of religion.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Wed 20-Mar-13 19:14:06

"why? cos its not pc. and anyone who does is rascist/bigotted/prejudiced according to the pc brigade."

I don't agree, I think it's because generally English people know (or think they know) more about Christianity than other religions. Personally, I treat them all in a similar manner. They are all belief systems with a supernatural leader.

As it happens though, this thread was directly regarding the Pope and thus Catholicism.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Wed 20-Mar-13 19:16:22

There's also plenty of comedians who take on the unPC jokes, but as it happens, religion is just generally quite easy to make fun of if you step back and look at it objectively.

I'm sure if you do a search using 'the keyword islam or Muslim, then you will get several threads where they are criticised.
As for Judaism, have you ever read one of the circuscion threads?

LizzyDay Wed 20-Mar-13 20:17:03

Yes, there are plenty of threads where issues such as circumcision and Islamic face-covering and women's rights are very hotly debated indeed. I suppose people are more likely to react to things they come directly in contact with or which have a lot of media exposure, like the new Pope being elected.

In the case of Christianity, most of us in the UK (whether Christian or not) will have been exposed to it via school, and things like weddings and funerals, and so are fairly well versed in what being cultural Christian is all about.

marjproops Wed 20-Mar-13 20:35:18

I know this particular thread is about the pope, admittedly i havent read many other threads on this forum (only recently discovered it!).

I do know an old friend who taught religion at her school and it was fine to most parents to teach about different Faiths but NOT the Christian faith. ???

LizzyDay Wed 20-Mar-13 21:45:25

marj - might the problem have been to do with the distinction between 'learning about' and 'worship'? I can't see that most parents would have a problem with children learning about the major world faiths in the same way as they learn about geography and history. It's a different thing for children to be expected to sing Christian hymns, pray, and talk about God and Jesus as if they exist.

marjproops Wed 20-Mar-13 21:51:51

I dont know, this was a UK school. I would have thought it was about the learning?

I personally never had a prob with DC learning about different faiths at school, and I homeschool now, and teach her same. we look at all faiths and cultures.

Im church of England but If DC ever 'feels' anything then its up to her, im not going to force my beliefs down her, i try and guide her but not force (if that makes sense...sorry, just had a mid-week tot and feel a bit woozy!)things. most religious teachings are for the good, and good respectful guidelines?

Of course Id like it if she stayed with mine but then again when i was old enough to decide for myself, id been bought up in a different belief system and felt the Cof E was the place for me.

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