The Pope

(94 Posts)
PedroPonyLikesCrisps Thu 28-Feb-13 08:09:21

The Pope is supposed to be a 'chosen' conduit to God..... So why is he elected by humans?

hiddenhome Thu 28-Feb-13 13:47:45

Because the people who choose him have prayed very hard beforehand and receive God given inspiration. I suppose if God was choosing a Pope, then He would inspire all the Cardinals to vote for the same man, so I guess that's where deep political intrigue comes in grin

technodad Thu 28-Feb-13 19:25:58

Because it is a process made up by humans to give power and wealth to a very few number of people.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Thu 28-Feb-13 22:09:23

It does seem very bizarre that this process is just accepted without question. Par for the course I guess.

LynetteScavo Thu 28-Feb-13 22:16:06

DH and I agreed tonight a pope should be'd have to take along your baptism certificate to be allowed to vote grin.

sashh Fri 01-Mar-13 06:49:31

I don't understand why they couldn't vote while he was still pope.

And what is he called now? Radio 4 is still calling him 'the pope', shouldn't he be the expope or Ratzinger or ...........

scaevola Fri 01-Mar-13 07:01:07

He is Pope Emeritus.

The Cardinals, after a lifetime of devotion, are supposed to be those who will perceive God's will with greatest clarity and vote accordingly.

It's not an arrangement unique to Catholicism: for example, the Dalai Lama is discovered and acclaimed by the high Lamas.

How do you think it should be done? Just ask people if they think it's meant to be them? Wait for a thunderbolt?

The church (all churches) are a human construct, and their decisions are made by the leadership one way or another, with more or less democracy. Nobody had yet found a better way of working out who God thinks is meant to be the next leader.

I dont want to sidetrack the thread but has anyone been to Mass since Thursday night?

I'm just wondering what is said in the Eucharistic Prayer where they pray for the Pope

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sun 03-Mar-13 10:38:35

Surely God in his almighty position could come up with SOME way of listing us know, don't you think? He could make it so all humans know who it is. He could mark them somehow, he could write a future list with dates for us. All these things should be well within his capability, no?

Gingerdodger Sun 03-Mar-13 11:00:35

Woolly the prayer was for Pope Emeritus Benedict. Only our priest forgot!

It's a fascinating time. The voting cardinals are guided by the Holy Spirit so it is not men who choose but rather the Holy Spirit. My belief is that, as we are all individuals with our own views and affiliations, the differences come as humans try to fathom out what the guidance they receive means within the context of their own life. It's no different in that way to what Christians (and I am sure everybody else does in the context of their own beliefs/morals/guidance/ethics etc) do everyday.

My prayers are that the Holy Spirit guides the cardinals to consider what the Church needs to consider the issues of prime importance in today's world rather than getting stuck on doctrinal issues which don't further the key messages of Jesus.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sun 03-Mar-13 13:38:40

I just how they pick someone with a sensible stance on birth control and STDs. Might help out a great deal of third world countries for once.

NotTreadingGrapes Sun 03-Mar-13 17:51:19

Woollyback - here in Italy this morning nothing was said about the Pope during the prayers, we went straight to the archbishop/bishops etc.

sieglinde Mon 11-Mar-13 11:28:20

Actually, the election process has evolved in the way it has so as to prevent powerful rulers from being able to influence the procedure. You don't want Berlusconi with a finger in the pie.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 11-Mar-13 18:59:47

Powerful rulers? So God's ok then?

sieglinde Tue 12-Mar-13 10:57:33

Powerful rulers of the darkness of this world smile

marjproops Thu 14-Mar-13 16:46:18

Catholics-can you answer this please? serious question.

If people are supposed to retire by age 65 or so why do they elect someone so old?

Pope John Paul I think was the youngest when he was elected, but look at the last one...he felt he was too old and ill to carry on?

Why so old? thanx.

NotTreadingGrapes Thu 14-Mar-13 16:49:29

Not Catholic, but been here for long enough that I might as well be grin

I imagine it's because of the perceived wisdom of the elders thing, that you get in all faiths/religions/spiritual thingies <<<technical word

They can't be elected once they are over 80 or vote in the conclave. (poss considered too doolally and doddery by then)

sieglinde Fri 15-Mar-13 10:38:03

marj., as an RC my answer is that the CHURCH doesn't make people retire at 65 - that's a SECULAR law. The Bishop of Krakow said it best. 'One does not get down from the Cross.'

I think it's no bad thing for a papacy to be relatively short - reduces the chance of corruption. If the cardinals picked someone in their 30s the chances for corruption would be immense.

Also I like it that we buck the secular trend to say all youth is better than old age. The old have much wisdom to give us.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Fri 15-Mar-13 15:36:24

Short administrations are all well and good, but when the leader is elected by a small select group of like minded individuals, that all goes out the windows as far as corruption is concerned. It also basically ignores all the progress which has been made with democracy over the last few centuries.

Why not have all the Catholics vote on a Pope?

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Fri 15-Mar-13 15:37:39

Plus, even the short administrations are quite long (over a decade) and there's been plenty of corruption going around.

nightlurker Fri 15-Mar-13 15:52:56

"Why not have all the Catholics vote on a Pope?"

When you say that, I picture a Papal campaign complete with campaign fundraisers, rallies, and attack ads. Something tells me it would inevitably end in disaster.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Fri 15-Mar-13 19:56:59

They could do world tours and campaign across the globe. It could just work like the USA. Each country gets a quota of votes based on population and everyone votes on the same day. It would be special awesome!

sieglinde Sat 16-Mar-13 13:30:34

The RC church is not a democracy....

Are you all really so thrilled with the idea? Why not rid yourselves of the Royals, then? I mean, it's a bit rich, given that you still have them...

And Pedro, the cardinals are NOT like-minded in many respects.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 16-Mar-13 13:37:59

Pedro, what would convince you that someone was chosen by god?

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sat 16-Mar-13 19:26:19

If you're talking about the British royals, they are just for show, they don't actually run anything, so that's irrelevant.

Diane, yours is a meaningless question to me as I don't believe in a god.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 17-Mar-13 15:44:33

Does that make your OP meaningless too Pedro?confused

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sun 17-Mar-13 17:04:29

Not at all. I was asking for an answer to why the Pope is chosen by humans.

KenDoddsDadsDog Sun 17-Mar-13 17:14:18

The British Royals don't run anything ......apart from the fact that the queen is the head of the CofE. Whose Bishops sit in the Lords and have a say in the law of the land.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 17-Mar-13 17:57:04

If not humans, who would you expect to chose the pope Pedro?confused

KenDoddsDadsDog Sun 17-Mar-13 18:57:17

Daddy Pig possibly grin

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 18-Mar-13 07:21:38

"If not humans, who would you expect to chose the pope Pedro?"

Well obviously the only point in having a Pope is if there is actually a god hanging around. Either there is and he can elect a Pope himself or there isn't and we have to resort to a convoluted human-based election system.

This highlights my lack of belief quite nicely.

KenDoddsDadsDog Mon 18-Mar-13 07:57:18

Jesus chose the first Pope didn't he? Who then handed it down to Linus (brain struggling to remember GCSE catholic teaching!) so it has been human choice for 2000 plus years.

sieglinde Mon 18-Mar-13 08:40:19

KenDoddsDad, I'm afraid the monarch has immense reserve powers in the event of a deadlocked parliament. It's silly to imagine these will never be used.

KenDoddsDadsDog Mon 18-Mar-13 09:00:51

I know ! Definitely not just a figurehead that means nothing. The "don't run anything "quote was from up the thread, forgot my quotation marks!

WhatKindofFool Tue 19-Mar-13 15:34:42

Pedro You seem to have a lot of theological questions for an atheist.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Wed 20-Mar-13 07:09:48

"Pedro You seem to have a lot of theological questions for an atheist."

That's a strange statement. Weekday do you mean by it?

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Wed 20-Mar-13 07:10:15

That should be what, not weekday!

WhatKindofFool Wed 20-Mar-13 07:39:57

I wonder why you ask. As an atheist you must think that it is all fiction so I am interested in why you need answers about something that you have no belief in if you have already discounted it all.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Wed 20-Mar-13 19:18:33

Which questions were you referring to?

WhatKindofFool Wed 20-Mar-13 22:10:07

Why is the pope chosen by humans?
Why don't all Catholics vote on it?

MaryBS Wed 20-Mar-13 22:24:29

Because last I knew, the RC church wasn't a democracy grin

Pan Wed 20-Mar-13 22:41:42

I suspect Pedro is just bored.grin
Pop along to an Evensong near you? You might actually like it!

sieglinde Thu 21-Mar-13 10:21:06

Just FYI. 'Francisco Jalics, jailed for five months in 1970s in Argentina, says he and new pope reconciled in 2000.'

Rather embarrassing for the secularists. Jumping to conclusions much? Well, that's what bigotry means.

WhatKindofFool Thu 21-Mar-13 14:15:21

Exactly, Sieglinde. There was a lot of adverse internet twitterings about Mugabe being a the inaugural mass. Mugabe wasn't even invited and besides which, Jesus said that sinners need him, like the sick need a doctor, so the Pope would hardly turn him away.

Makes me so cross!

sieglinde Thu 21-Mar-13 16:48:12

Well put, WhatKindOf. Agree entirely.

I'm reading Anne Applebaum's book on the way communism took over in Eastern Europe and its war against the churches, especially the RC church.

It began with constant detraction and ridicule, including false claims of spying and involvement with 'enemies'. Then the state took over Catholic charities, and also took over RC and Lutheran schools. Then people had to express their dislike of the RC church and were punished if they refused. Then they began rounding up and imprisoning Catholics and others, devout laity or in holy orders....

It sounded much too familiar.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Thu 21-Mar-13 19:34:48

"Pop along to an Evensong near you? You might actually like it!"

Lol, I doubt it somehow!

Pan Thu 21-Mar-13 19:48:20

Well, that's a shame.
Atheists are soooo narrow-minded and scared, ime.grin

KenDoddsDadsDog Thu 21-Mar-13 20:54:14

A whiff of incense and you will be confessing sins you don't even know yo have committed. Happens to me every Sunday. grin

DioneTheDiabolist Thu 21-Mar-13 21:00:59

Are you sure it's mass you're going to Ken? Sounds to me like it might be the local nick. Tell me does the "priest" wear black or really, really, really dark blue.grin

KenDoddsDadsDog Thu 21-Mar-13 21:11:13

Well I do get a torch shone in my eyes.......and the funny smell hmmm.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Fri 22-Mar-13 09:27:38

"Atheists are soooo narrow-minded and scared, ime."

I'd like to know how you come to that conclusion. Religious people following blindly the bizarre convoluted messages from a book with no acceptance that it might all be fiction vs atheists who embrace scientific development, regularly recheck their way of thinking, look in wonder and awe at the beautiful universe which has spawned from a simple set of fundamental laws of physics. Constantly challenging ideas, throwing away what doesn't work and moving with the times.

But I guess we're the close minded ones because we don't find it entertaining to listen to some guy prattle on about how a dude in a book has some strangle hold on my life and watches me while I pee.

For what it's worth, I find the religious to be the more scared. After all, that's what the whole thing's about. Live by God's way or you won't have a decent after life. Someone's died, but I can't accept they're gone so I'll pretend they are looking down on me from heaven. Science takes too much thinking and I don't get it so I'll just take the easy path and pretend that everything was just made how it is....

LeBFG Fri 22-Mar-13 09:47:31

All this huddle of cardinals is a bit odd - if god had decided who's the one, all the priests would be in agreement. I suppose this is evidence that some cardinals are closer to god than others.

How do we know which is the chosen one? Very easily imo. How did we know Jesus was the one? Joan of Arc was also chosen by god. You just stand up and say 'I'm it. I'm the one'. Then everyone follows. Simples.

WhatKindofFool Fri 22-Mar-13 11:44:09

Pedro Are you saying that people who believe in God don't question and analyse their beliefs? Are you saying that religious people have blind faith and believe everything that is put in front of them?

sieglinde Fri 22-Mar-13 12:30:55

Well said, WhatKindOf. Another set of bigoted assumptions from Pedro, and all of them wrong.

Said sieglinde, who spent an hour on the last clear night looking at the stars and thinking about the Big Bang (which was btw first suggested by an RC monk...) and who has some university science qualifications, and who never thinks of her late mother looking down on her from anywhere, and who has never been afraid of damnation, ever. Make a straw man, and throw things at him.... that's what bigots do.

What Pedro means is that we must be closed-minded because our reexaminations do not lead us to agreement with her.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Fri 22-Mar-13 19:16:07

"Pedro Are you saying that people who believe in God don't question and analyse their beliefs? Are you saying that religious people have blind faith and believe everything that is put in front of them?"

Blind faith? For those who believe in a god or gods, yes, you have to have blind faith because there's no evidence.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Fri 22-Mar-13 19:29:45

"(which was btw first suggested by an RC monk...)" I presume you are referring to Georges Lemaître, who was indeed a Catholic Priest who based his work on that of Einstein. He proposed an expanding model of the universe, but 'big bang' was actually coined by Sir Fred Hoyle... Who was neither Catholic, nor a priest, nor a monk.

sieglinde Sat 23-Mar-13 11:55:49

Yes, I did mean Lemaitre. You will also no doubt recall that he was relentlessly dissed by the people of his own time...

The term 'big bang' is not the same as the theory of the 'big bang'.

sieglinde Sat 23-Mar-13 11:56:46

"Blind faith? For those who believe in a god or gods, yes, you have to have blind faith because there's no evidence."

What you mean is, no evidence that you accept.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sat 23-Mar-13 13:56:40

No, there's no evidence. None. And when I say evidence, I mean something that can actually be verified (not just someone's word) and that actually demonstrates the existence of a god or gods to a reasonable degree of certainty. There is nothing even close to being evidence. Never has been.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sat 23-Mar-13 14:24:13

"You will also no doubt recall that he was relentlessly dissed by the people of his own time..."
Funny you mention that because there's no shortage of scientists who had a lot worse than a dissing dished out by the Christians of the time who were so close minded they refused to accept that the bi Le might be wrong.

"The term 'big bang' is not the same as the theory of the 'big bang'."
Correct, but the principle of an expanding universe is also not the same as the big bang.

ethelb Sat 23-Mar-13 18:21:14

Because how else would it be done?

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 24-Mar-13 01:07:46

Pedro, is this thread a very convoluted way of you telling us that you're not a Catholic and don't believe in god?

sieglinde Sun 24-Mar-13 12:15:14

Pedro, if those are your criteria, there is an amazing dearth of evidence for most things in the past. We can't accept the existence of Alexander the Great, for example.

On the dissing, I assume you refer to the cases of Galileo (who died in 1642) and others on the Copernican universe? Others may not know that these cases took place some three hundred years before scientists refused to listen to Lemaitre (who died in 1966) Unless - do you mean the RC church's war on Marx and Freud? About whom they now look to be very much in the right...

On your other point, I was of course speaking of Lemaitre's hypothesis of the single primeval atom, not JUST of his theory of the expanding universe. It is of course the former which is now generally regarded as the Big Bang theory.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sun 24-Mar-13 12:29:35

Galileo was jailed for his sins in a world where religion controlled everything. Try locking someone up in the UK for telling people that the Sun revolves around the Earth in this day and age. Makes me sick.

You might not realise it, but most prominent scientists are tackled by their peers, especially if they have a new way of thinking. That's how science works. But it sure as hell doesn't prove anything about religion's place in scientific development just because a religionist had an idea which turned out to be accepted by the scientific community.

sieglinde Sun 24-Mar-13 14:22:41

So your knowledge was confined to Galileo. I thought as much. Given that the RC church is not locking anyone up now, why do you keep on and on about this?

And stop being patronising. of COURSE I know how science works. But Lemaitre was also attacked by the militant atheists of his day....

KenDoddsDadsDog Sun 24-Mar-13 14:58:40

Aren't new ways of thinking in all areas challenged by their peers Pedro? That was super patronising.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sun 24-Mar-13 15:19:45

"So your knowledge was confined to Galileo. I thought as much. Given that the RC church is not locking anyone up now, why do you keep on and on about this?

And stop being patronising. of COURSE I know how science works. But Lemaitre was also attacked by the militant atheists of his day...."

Hahaha, I love how you make stuff up. How exactly do you come to the conclusion that my knowledge is confined to Galileo? I used it as an example you might have heard of. And I'm hardly going on about it, I mentioned it once because it was relevant to the point you were trying to make.

Lemaitre wasn't exactly attacked by militant atheists either unless you read the articles on Catholic websites oddly enough......some of his scientific peers didn't like the theological ideas which his theory raised, but as it turns out, he was probably wrong anyway. Still I'm not quite sure what the point of mentioning him in the first place was anayway.

sieglinde Sun 24-Mar-13 15:39:28

Why don't you cite the other examples, then? I like to learn. smile And you haven't explained why you are droning on about events from the seventeenth century.

I'm afraid I don't go to "Catholic websites" for information on these matters. Since you agree that Lemaitre's supposed religious 'bias' was the subject of attack, I think we are in broad agreement. You might also want to note that most histories of science portray him as the father of Big Bang.

The point of mentioning him was to refute your Dawkins-based caricature of people of religion as unable to appreciate the wonder of the stars.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sun 24-Mar-13 16:00:00

Rhazes, Servetus, Oldenburg, Domagk, Einstein. But the bigger issue is that you assumed because I didn't mention them in the first place, then I must not wonder you believe in god.

It wasn't the religious bias at all, it was the fact that he attributed the 'primordial atom' (which wouldn't have been an atom anyway) had parallels with the story of Genesis. Some people didn't like that, some people jumped on it as 'proof' of god, etc. but I don't believe he was persecuted in the way that religious governments have been capable in the past when they had the power.

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 08:18:36

But al-Razi is a hero to Islam... and even longer ago than Galileo, and so too is Servetus longer ago (1500s).

How was Einstein - this is Albert, I assume? - persecuted by RELIGION as opposed to by the viciously antisemitic regimes he lived under? Ditto Domagk, who was forced to refuse the Nobel because the Nazis were pissed off that it had been awarded to one of their enemies... and how are these cases in ANY WAY relevant to the churches in 2013?

You aren't by ANY chance seeing Nazism as Xtian, are you? I hope to God I've misunderstood you.

Is Oldenburg Claes Oldenburg? (Surely not.. I confess bewilderment.)

I never said that Lemaitre was persecuted in any way analogous to the Inquisition. [Makes patient face]. I said that he showed you could look at the stars and glory in the reality of the universe and be a CHRSTIAN. I also said that he met with some of the belligerent bigotry YOU are displaying.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 09:17:58

Ok, if you really want to bring Hitler in to the equation. He was a Catholic and built the Nazi empire on Christian doctrine. He persecuted the Jews because he believed that God had called upon him to fight them.

Einstein was a (non practicing) Jew and was stripped of his post in Berlin following the rise of the Hitler regime.

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 09:24:16

I didn't want to bring in Hitler, and I didn't. You did, with Einstein.

HITLER WAS NOT A CATHOLIC. He gave up being a Catholic in his teens. Go look at Ian Kershaw's biography. And stripping Jews of their posts under the Nuremberg laws was NOT a religious action against science.

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 10:21:33

You might also want to look at the violently secularist Stalinist regime's persecution of scientists, with its particular violence against geneticists:

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 12:32:09

Hitler WAS a Catholic:

“The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement)
was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work.”

[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

“I have followed [the Church] in giving our party program the
character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has
never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred
years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its
amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been
rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be
built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or
irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long
as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it.”

[Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, The Voice of Destruction, pp. 239-40]

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest
not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian
and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord
at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the
Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight
against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with
deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact
that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As
a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have
the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is
anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is
the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty
to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and
work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only
for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning
and see these men standing in their queues and look into their
pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very
devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two
thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people
are plundered and exposed.”

[Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a
political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on
his personal Christian feelings. Published in "My New Order", quoted
in Freethought Today April 1990]

“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]

“What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the
fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission
assigned to it by the Creator.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 125]

“This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the
practical existence of a religious belief.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152]

“And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove
those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.174]

“Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another… while the
enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.309]

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so”

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

“Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be
wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in
a fanatical outlook.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 171]

“I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn
splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the
abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my
father, the highest and most desirable ideal.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 1]

“I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from
time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At
all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man
and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna’s destinies: Dr.
Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 2]

“…the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party… was to
assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people
fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether
Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly
at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single
holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to
his own heaven.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“Political parties has nothing to do with religious problems, as long
as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and
ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the
scheming of political parties.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of
his people must always remain inviolable; or else has no right to be
in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes!

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was
wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“It [Christian Social Party] recognized the value of large-scale
propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological
instincts of the broad masses of its adherents.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked
among the great minds of our people.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3, about the leader of
the Christian Social movement]

“Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy
enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an
overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted
to live at this time.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

“I had so often sung ‘Deutschland u:ber Alles’ and shouted ‘Heil’ at
the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of
grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the
eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

“Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very
first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always
and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence
which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering
and uncertain.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

“I soon realized that the correct use of propaganda is a true art
which has remained practically unknown to the bourgeois parties. Only
the Christian- Social movement, especially in Lueger’s time achieved
a certain virtuosity on this instrument, to which it owed many of its

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 6]

“Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along
the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord’s grace
smiled on His ungrateful children.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 7, reflecting on World
War I]

“The more abstractly correct and hence powerful this idea will be,
the more impossible remains its complete fulfillment as long as it
continues to depend on human beings… If this were not so, the
founders of religion could not be counted among the greatest men of
this earth… In its workings, even the religion of love is only the
weak reflection of the will of its exalted founder; its significance,
however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a
universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

“To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other
great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin
Luther as well as Richard Wagner.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

“The fight against syphilis demands a fight against prostitution,
against prejudices, old habits, against previous conceptions, general
views among them not least the false prudery of certain circles. The
first prerequisite for even the moral right to combat these things is
the facilitation of earlier marriage for the coming generation. In
late marriage alone lies the compulsion to retain an institution
which, twist and turn as you like, is and remains a disgrace to
humanity, an institution which is damned ill-suited to a being who
with his usual modesty likes to regard himself as the ‘image’ of God.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 12:37:13

You'll notice many quotes from war time and Mein Kampf, so he hardly 'gave it up in his teens'

The Nazi regime was based firmly in Catholic ideals. Even their belts had the inscription "Gott mit uns" (God is with us).

It's a Catholic lie to disassociate with Hitler, especially as it was Catholics who aided the escape of several high ranking Nazi officers after the war.

But, even if he was an atheist, (and Starlings certainly was) you couldn't attribute his actions to atheist 'beliefs'. Whereas it's quite simple to draw parallels with religion and Catholicism.

WhatKindofFool Mon 25-Mar-13 12:37:15

So Catholics are responsible for Nazis? LMAO.
There were plenty of Catholic priests that hid Jews from the Nazis by the way.

The Hitler argument is ridiculous. 1 evil man and you relate him to the whole of Christianity.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 12:40:19

No, I was asked how Einstein was persecuted by religion. I was giving the answer. Where did I relate him to the whole of Christianity?

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 13:05:08

What in this huge undigested bundle of downloads is specifically Catholic?

NOTHING AT ALL. In fact, one statement specifically praises Luther. The Nazis did see him as much more agreeably anti-semitic than the RC church.

They did try for rapprochements with the RC church because there were and are so many RCs in Germany. But Hitler never went to mass after his teens, never went to confession, never entered RC churches....

And the idea that these quotations prove that Einstein's persecution under the Nuremberg laws had ANYTHING to do with RELIGION is FARCICAL. Your argument is incredibly poorly supported. The Nuremberg laws had nothing to do with Xtianity of any kind.

Many Catholics passionately opposed the Nazis, and so did many Lutherans.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 13:19:31

How about this one?

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so”
[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

Sounds pretty conclusive to me.

Anyway, this seems to have degraded from a list of persecuted scientists to an argument about Hitler's beliefs (which are in absolutely no doubt). Who gives a crap if he went to mass or not? Are you seriously suggesting that a Catholic ain't a Catholic if he doesn't go to church? Because that it's pretty offensive, you might have forgotten that he had his hands full killing Jews in the name of the Almighty.

'Many Catholics passionately opposed the Nazis'. Really? So not all of them then, some supported him? How do you know who was right?

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 13:31:30

It's a long time after the Nuremberg laws, too. And not REMOTELY borne out by ANYTHING ELSE he said or did. He disavowed his RC childhood many times.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hitler in 1933 [contemporary with the N laws that exiled einstein, and therefore RELEVANT]

Adolf Hitler supported the Deutsche Christen church which rejected the Hebrew origins of the Gospel.[1] In his book Mein Kampf and in public speeches he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity.[2][3] Prior to World War II Hitler had promoted "positive Christianity", a movement which purged Christianity of its Jewish elements and instilled it with Nazi philosophy.[4] According to the controversial collection of transcripts edited by Martin Bormann, titled Hitler's Table Talk, as well as the testimony of some intimates, Hitler had privately negative views of Christianity.

This just in - Hitler was a liar. Please go away and look at Kershaw.

I fear the RC church DOES give a crap about whether he went to church. No, you are NOT a Catholic if you don't go to mass and confession ONCE A YEAR AT LEAST. You cease to be one; you are de jure excommunicate, though no formal ceremony is required for reinclusion. Hitler would have known that precisely BECAUSE of his upbringing.

He did NOT therefore kill Jews in the name of the Almighty.

Any more than Stalin killed them in the name of militant atheism. ????

Now you want a list of Catholic martyrs to the Nazis. Well, why don't we start in Poland? That should keep us busy for months. Let's start here:

Eighty per cent of the Catholic clergy and five bishops of Warthegau were sent to concentration camps in 1939; 108 of them are regarded as blessed martyrs.[75] Religious persecution was not confined to this region: in Dachau concentration camp alone, 2,600 Catholic priests from 24 different countries were killed.[75] The Catholic Church was particularly suppressed in Poland: between 1939 and 1945, an estimated 3,000 members (18%) of the Polish clergy, were murdered; of these, 1,992 died in concentration camps

This seems odd behaviour to endorse for someone motivated by their devout Catholicism. Don't you think?

Or we could all hear your reply on Stalin's persecution of geneticists, at long last.

WhatKindofFool Mon 25-Mar-13 14:19:13

Pedro You are still on about Hitler being a Catholic. Why is this relevant? You are talking about the actions of one individual. We all know there are good and bad in every section of society.

Apparently, Hitler was also vegetarian....

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 14:28:38

Just letting you know I will be away from my desk till tomorrow - wouldn't want Pedro to think me frit grin

WhatKindofFool Mon 25-Mar-13 17:53:24

sieglinde grin

By the way, I like the Popes tweets. They are much more down to earth than Benedict's. #keepingitreal

sieglinde Tue 26-Mar-13 08:26:57

Yes, I like them too. But I also liked Benedict. I thought he was/is a sweet, gentle old man, with a lovely shy smile. I wasn't sooo keen before he visited England, but I thought he deservedly won a lot of us over then. smile

NotTreadingGrapes Tue 26-Mar-13 08:29:50

Hitler could paint a bit as well.

Are all artists evil?

WhatKindofFool Tue 26-Mar-13 13:28:15

Yes, seiglinde I know what you mean about Benedict.

sieglinde Tue 26-Mar-13 14:01:43

And I also think change is nice - we could use the down to earth now...

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 26-Mar-13 23:03:06

Yes Grapes, I think artists must be responsible for all the bad in the world. Damn those artists and their evil brush strokes!

sieglinde Wed 27-Mar-13 08:10:46

And Pony, what about the Stalinist persecution of scientists? Was he a Catholic too? Or just an artist?

WhatKindofFool Wed 27-Mar-13 10:07:14

Stalin had a moustache. So did Hitler. I see a common thread here. It is not about religion but whether or not you have a moustache. Lets add Sadam Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad. Actually, thinking about it, Bin Laden had quite a lot of facial hair.

sieglinde Wed 27-Mar-13 13:43:45

Aha! [eager curious face] Now I understand... of course, of course.

Pedro, fess up. I mean, you're a pony, right? That has to mean - gasp - FACIAL HAIR!!!!

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Wed 27-Mar-13 19:32:18

Haha! Yeah you got me, big fluffy moustache like the Chuckle Brothers who are obviously also vigilante persecutors!

Gingerdodger Wed 27-Mar-13 19:41:42

Think Hitler gave up being a 'catholic' regardless of whether he attended church, thought he was one or not when he starting persecuting people and didn't practise forgiveness of others, love or compassion. That's not to say Christians are required to be perfect but there does come a point that your values are so far away from Christian ones that someone will cease to be one in practise.

That isn't to say someone cannot repent and come back into the fold.... a whole other conversation...

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