I've had it with the Catholic/Christian gaybashing(66 Posts)
re: the above article, ive looked into regining formally from the Catholic church - ive not been to church since christmas 2011 and my crisis of faith is entwined in this.
i have always laways seperated out faith and religion. always. Catholic history is a shower of shite, torture, power and money grabbing and sexual abuse - i'm not going to defend that.
i am finding this letter one step too far
i mean, WWJD - its a cliche i know, it makes me want to puke suburban America up in a frilly apron - but jesus wouldn't do this, he wouldn't.
yet i looked at the pro-forma resignation letter and felt sick, i can't do it. i don't know whats wrong with me, i am usually so fucking principled.
does anyone else have a view?
Oh dear. Love the way those who want to discriminate against gay people try to turn it round so they are the victims. 'Oh, poor little meeeee, it's all about meeee, you are oppressing meee by stopping me oppressing gay people'. Shitforbrains.
I wonder whether misogynists were pulling this trick back in the days of the suffragettes... in fact I'm sure they must have been, probably talking about votes for women devaluing democracy or some such shite.
One of my Mum's best friends is a Catholic priest (not a parish priest), he says the Vatican is full of screaming queers (and he should know, he makes Graham Norton look boring and middle-of-the-road - he 'lived a full life' before getting the call to the priesthood, is the way he puts it).
From my reading of the gospels, Jesus would have regarded them the same way he regarded the Pharisees. Not very impressed, is my guess. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone and all that.
(Nice to see you around, btw, very rarely bump into you these days.)
Link to story for anyone not wanting to give the Telegraph a page hit.
I found the quotes I read laughable, but then I am not a Catholic or a Christian. I have friends who are, and who oppose gay marriage. That's their choice. I don't think their religious convictions should outweigh the civil concept of marriage and Christians don't, after all, 'own' marriage.
Would it not be better to stay within the church and fight this? I'm aware that traditional Catholicism does not - how shall we say - encourage a plurality of opinion, but I think if I were you I would want to be sacked rather than resign for this one.
I'm sorry this is so painful for you, btw. I'm not a Catholic (although half my family were) so it's not agonising for me personally. More frustrating that a bunch of bullies are trying to dictate the laws of the land that affect people who aren't part of their group. The Catholic church can set the rules for Catholic marriage, but keep their nose out of civil marriage, IMO (or indeed CofE or Muslim or Quaker etc. etc. etc.).
cheers tribot and edam - i agree completely of course about keeping their nose out - what i find so hard it that these very well educated people - and they are, are missing the point
i am assumng the subtext here is power / money but i don't know the link.
true men of god would not deliberatly make a campaign against a certain csection of society
This has some interesting quotes from arguments against women's suffrage, btw. Including:
"Women would be corrupted by politics and chivalry would die out.
If women became involved in politics, they would stop marrying, having children, and the human race would die out.
Women were emotional creatures, and incapable of making a sound political decision.
Because all government rests ultimately on force, to which women, owing to physical, moral and social reasons, are not capable of contributing.
Because there is little doubt that the vast majority of women have no desire for the vote.
Because the acquirement of the Parliamentary vote would logically involve admission to Parliament itself, and to all Government offices. It is scarcely possible to imagine a woman being Minister for War, and yet the principles of the Suffragettes involve that and many similar absurdities.
Because past legislation in Parliament shows that the interests of women are perfectly safe in the hands of men. " [My emphasis]
<wipes tears from eyes>
Yes, our friend-the-priest looked into going over to the CofE (in disgust at child abuse scandals) but said Anglican theology and academic was just far less intellectually rigorous than Catholic (he's a professor) so you may well be right about these being well-educated people. Being well-educated doesn't make you right, though, or stop you being a bully or discriminating. (Lost quite a bit of respect for our friend when intellectual snobbery won over outrage at child abuse, tbh.)
Custardo - yes, I find the view of my friends unfathomable as well. These are perfectly rational people, obviously accepting of other faiths and no faith. Yet this change of the law - that cannot possibly affect them in any way, that rests on a clause in the Bible that goes along with a bunch of other instructions that no-one would want to claim as relevant today - somehow has them up in arms.
Why aren't they opposing the change of the law of succession? That must be incompatible with the Bible's teaching as well?
btw, I just love the irony of a bunch of apparently celibate men thinking they get to make the rules on marriage, not only for members of their own club but for everyone in the whole country. Arrogant bastards.
I realise it is a radical thought but Christians do not all think the same thing about the issue of gay marriage. The Roman Catholic Church does not speak for all Christians any more than the Archbishop of Canterbury does.
This news story was around this week www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/01/10/dean-of-worcester-i-agree-with-allowing-equal-marriage-because-marriage-is-not-an-institution/ but hasn't made it to the BBC as far as I can see.
Custy I was brought up Catholic and never understood any of it from the start. Any time I asked questions I was told to do the sacrament and worry about that later...
I stopped going to church shortly after being confirmed.
I agree the Catholic church is a terrible thing in many ways - but it doesn't mean I don't have any faith, like you I separate that from the people-ruled fripperies of organised religion.
Not much help I'm afraid but I don't consider myself Catholic and I don't consider anyone should need any sort of formal resignation or shite like that in order not to be 'owned' by them any more. My mother insists I'm still a catholic - it's just not true. I don't get all this.
and fwiw yanbu completely
What a load if drama queens! Persecution? How ridiculous.
The only positive is that this was only signed by 1/4 of priests. I'm hoping that the other 3/4 are embarrassed by the whole thing.
Custy I'm not surprised that resigning seems like a big thing to do. Catholicism feels cultural as well as spiritual. And can it be changed from the inside given that so many people within the church think like you about the child abuse scandals and the sheer unkindness of the church's official line on homosexuality?
drama queens is a very good term for them if my-mother's-friend-the-gay-priest is to be believed...
i am going to give the resignation a big think. Not being able to have Eucharist last rites etc - needs some more thought
You could join ANOther Christian church, perhaps?
(didn't mean that to sound glib, btw, am sure you've thought of that.)
'Lost quite a bit of respect for our friend when intellectual snobbery won over outrage at child abuse, tbh.'
I doubt he'd have found fewer cover-ups in the Anglican church than in the RC. Events in the last year have shown that pretty well every institution in which there has been child abuse has tried to cover it up.
Abra1d - true but the CofE hasn't engaged in mass denial and silencing of victims to anything like the same extent. What happened in both Churches is terrible but the RC hierarchy really did take it to extreme levels - and are still hiding abusers from the law.
I think things will change. Even Sister Wendy (remember her art programmes on BBC), who is about eighty-something, thinks that the Church's views will alter, but very slowly. She said this when she was a guest on Desert Island Discs just before Christmas.
Sorry, that last point was in relation to sexuality, not child abuse.
I'm a teacher.
If I work in an RC show I cannot ever become senior management. The priests are OK with this.
The schools are allowed to pick children because their parents attend church.
The sex discrimmination act was 1976 - they have managed to discriminate against women since then.
They will not allow divorcees to marry in church.
This is all fine as far as they are concerned, yet they think they are being persecuted.
I would be more interested if they were able to sustain a freedom of speech argument. One would rather the English Defence League or the BNP went away permanently but they have the right (up to a point) to state their opinions. No-one is suggesting that Christians should not be allowed to continue to assert their beliefs in their own spaces (up to and including the preposterous ban on the CofE and CinW being allowed to decide for itself what it believes, which surely is persecution?) but this fixation on dogma is out of place in a plural society.
i cant join another christian church, becuase - well, tbh, they are a bit happy clappy about the whole thing, i like bells n smells stuff - maybe the jews would have meif i just leave out the jesus thing.
i find my own thoughts ont he subject very intersting - i wan to resign - yet i can't, and thats just silly - its not like ive been to church in over a year - oh, but what if i change my mind? what if i get old and want to go to church, what if the church changes its mind
then do i have to get re-baptized? tiz a quandary - but the catholic church are a shower of amazing rubbish shite. they have a history of shiteness and continue to be shite.
Well, I'm not going to pretend to understand why you would rate swinging incense about so highly (Although surely High Anglican or the Orthodox churches could provide the plainsong and bells and wotnot, also funny hats). But perhaps you should simply ask your priest outright what would be involved if you want to come back later.
' but the catholic church are a shower of amazing rubbish shite. they have a history of shiteness and continue to be shite.'
A quarter at least of the world's healthcare is provided by the RC church. In large areas of Africa, there is only the church doing looking after the sick. There are thousands of very humble men and women doing very unglamorous work that directly benefits the poor. Every time I am angered by the church I remind myself of this.
Look, there is never going to be a Catholic gay marriage. End of. If that is something you are passionate about, then you are going to have to find another church. These people are acting according to their consciences, you must do the same.
How do you resign from the Catholic Church? I'm an atheist but was baptised and made first holy communion. If I'm still counted as a catholic then I'd like to formally remove myself from it, if there is a way.
"A quarter at least of the world's healthcare is provided by the RC church"
Can I see the evidence?
It gets me very annoyed. Live and let live and let god alone judge us when it's our time. IMO Jesus taught us to love our enemies and turn the other cheek, offer hospitality to strangers and not to judge lest we be judged also.
Bit hard that last bit but I have a lifetime to work on it....
Is the evidence available from somewhere that isn't a Catholic
propaganda article press release?
I wonder if there are any UN stats on healthcare provision and providers?
The RC Church has done an enormous amount of damage wrt the stance on condoms and AIDS. Especially to women and children. I think you need to weigh all that suffering and all those deaths up against hospitals and clinics.
The Little Sisters of Mercy used to do a lot
of good work for to women in their laundries, and the Christian Brothers did a lot for to boys in their residential schools.
Who knows what goes on in the clinics and orphanages?
Edam The RC church has not "^done an enormous amount of damage wrt the stance on condoms and AIDS^"
The cause of the spread of HIV infection is not unprotected sex: it's promiscuity. This is why HIV infection rates in muslim countries are so much lower than non-muslim countries: promiscuity is not part of the muslim culture.
Please don't blame the RC church for the spread of HIV infection. That is disingenuous.
You surely would not claim that comdoms do not reduce the spread of HIV?
Because it would be simply untrue.
One opinion which differs from yours (there are many) might be that the church's horror of sexual activity, which is so vile that it can only be excused on grounds of causing babies, has led to a fundamentalist religious obsession that it is better to spread fatal diseases, than to sanction the use of devices which can permit sex to occur while obstructing both the creation of babies and the spread of fatal and incurable disease.
Zavi - the RC Church is responsible for the suffering and deaths of men, women and children who have contracted AIDS that could have been avoided through widespread use of condoms. The Church knew and knows full well that condoms do help to prevent the spread of AIDS. But the Pope and the heirarchy thought their message about sex outside marriage being bad was more important - more important than saving lives, even the lives of little babies. That was an evil act, and one for which those priests will have to answer one day, if they believe what they say. (Although who knows, given the extent of child abuse, whether they actually believe in Jesus and his teachings anyway - remember 'if any of these were to harm a child...'?)
And as for promiscuity not being part of Muslim culture, ho ho ho. Sex outside marriage carries severe penalties for women, and sometimes for men, in some Muslim countries. But rape and sexual abuse still exist, oddly enough.
Millstone round the neck is prescribed, and cast into the sea.
We had some bollocks from the society for the protection of the unborn today.
We need to stop gay people getting married because marriage is the best environment to raise a child.
We need to stop gay marriage because most abortions are requested by unmarried women.
In countries with marriage equality, the rate of marriage has gone down. So just like countries with marriage inequality then . Twats.
I almost prefer the "God made Adam and Eve" total irrelevance to the "marriage is so special lets keep it just for 'us'" bollocks.
I mean seriously, gay people are now responsible for unwanted pregnancy! You couldn't make it up.
SPUC put me on their press release list. Suddenly started getting these horrible diatribes from them. Thankfully when I asked to be taken off their list I was. <yuck>
It's ridiculous to imagine that if the RC church had said "ok, you can use condoms in order to prevent the spread of disease" that those - promiscuous - people would then have thought "oh, right. Ok, I'll use condoms henceforth".
If the RC church's doctrine (no sex before marriage. No adultery within marriage) had been adhered to in the first place then the spread of HIV infection would not have been nearly so widespread.
RC church, or its doctrine, is not responsible for the spread of HIV infection!
"It's ridiculous to imagine that if the RC church had said "ok, you can use condoms in order to prevent the spread of disease" that those - promiscuous - people would then have thought "oh, right. Ok, I'll use condoms henceforth"."
It's ridiculous to make such an assertion.
More to the point, however, if the anti-condom movement had not, and did not, obstruct and prevent the supply of condoms, they would be more readily available and, without doubt, more frequently used.
Alas, the RC church, and its doctrine, is responsible for obstructing a cheap, simple and effective barrier to the spread of a fatal and incurable disease.
Can this be anything other than wicked?
Anyone remember George Bush's billions in aid being withdrawn from countries who refused to teach abstinence over condom use?
The Catholic church are, at best, naive in thinking that not using condoms would magically make people monogamous but its the evangelicals with the $$$$$$ that continue to get away with this whilst the world has turned to give the Vatican a hard stare. Countries with the highest infection rates (Swaziland, Botswana, SA, Namibia) tend to be Christian countries with small RC populations.
Custardo, I've written this out a few times - but I'm not comfortable with actively persuading another against the church (I feel like I will be struck down!)
In short I could have written all that you have here. Except, I have an idea of why I can't resign from the Catholic Church is for fear of unbaptised future grandchildren. There is more but I can't word it very well so late at night.
I have two girls. I just can't allow them to think such hatred of another, such intolerance is okay.
I can't find a suitable alternative because anything else feels fake, I am in no rush to find anything. (Judaism has always called to me - but I just can't devote myself to god at all at he moment).
promiscuity is not part of the muslim culture.
So why do muslims have
a) temporary marriages
b) multiple wives
RC church, or its doctrine, is not responsible for the spread of HIV infection!
Yes it is, where is the campaign to be faithful to your partner? To not use prostitutes? To not rape? It might be official doctrine but that is not what is being publicised.
Has anyone got a link to the actual letter? Would like to see if either of the two parish priests here have signed it. Actually I know that at least one of them won't have done as he is a friend and very vocal about the Catholic Church .....his comments on the Vatican are eye watering .....guess that he WON'T be making Pope then?
He often says that the Vatican have backed themselves into a corner over lots of things and now look like idiots but because the wheels of change move slowly there it will take time before they realise this.
Despite this he remains committed to being a Priest and says he has no regrets about the path he has chosen. He is very much a person who loves and cares for others though and he says he can "ignore a lot of the bollocks coming from the Vatican" in his day to day practice. Neither he or the other priest would agree with the church's stance on contraception. They had to read out a letter regarding the Bill for same sex marriages last year....both followed it up with their own comments that Jesus was about love and that anyone of any sexual persuasion would always be welcome in the parish churches.
Okay....found the letter and the signatories; neither of our parish priests have signed it . So relieved about that.
When the first studies showing circumcised men had far lower rates of HIV/AIDS to uncircumcised men were published, critics said that the results did not factor in the sociocultural behaviour of Muslim men. That they tended to be far less promiscuous- which means much lower rates of casual sex with multiple sexual partners- because of religion and culture not circumcision. Anti circumcision activists said this skewed the results.
And this was a valid criticism accepted across the board, which is why they did the later studies only amongst non muslim men ( and still found circumcision reduced the risks of HiV/AIDS infection amongst adult males.)
This really is about male behaviour- female 'chastity' doesnt help if the man is adulterous.many married women were infected with HiV who only ever slept with their husbands because their husbands were having sex outside of marriage.
Just as it that a woman once she becomes sexually active can get cervical cancer whether she has had 1 partner or several because it is to do with the HPV virus from the male partner - and that risk increases the more sexual partners he has and how many other sexual partners those women have.
If the RC church's doctrine (no sex before marriage. No adultery within marriage) had been adhered to in the first place then the spread of HIV infection would not have been nearly so widespread
And what business is it, exactly, of the RC church to take it upon themselves to tell anyone else what they may or may not do with their own bodies?
The point is not whether people have been promiscuous (some have, some haven't) the point is that they were frightened out of using the ONE THING that we know would prevent infection in the majority of cases by being lied to.
They weren't just told not to use condoms, they were told that condoms CAUSE AIDS. How any decent human being can seek to justify this is beyond me.
As I've said before, the Pope should be arrested for crimes against humanity for this. Perhaps his sentence could run concurrent with his other one for perverting the cause of justice by covering up for his nonce priests.
If a bunch of old virgins want to want wander around in their pretend city wearing dresses, good for them. But if they wouldn't mind taking their noses out of other people's business the world would be a safer place.
Ellie, well said...it speaks volumes that I think both of our local Catholic priests would agree with you too.
Neither of them signed this letter either I am pleased to say.
No, the Catholic Church needs to keep its nose out except for supporting prevention and caring for those affected.
Custardo, I have not formally resigned from the catholic church (and don't know how - tell me!) but now go to a c of e church. I love it. It is not happy clappy. It is a huge relief to be a member of a church. (and the music is really good)
I was upset when the c of e rejected women bishops but I believe they will get there.
Catholics - never. I have given up.
One of the priests at my church is an ex catholic priest. He left the catholic church for all the good reasons you can guess, then got married, then found his way into the c of e. For some reason (childhood indoctrination probably) I find this very comforting. I suppose my warped logic is: if a PRIEST can make this decision, it cannot be as EVIL and CHILDISH and PATHETIC as all that (disagreeing with the catholic church was always portrayed as wrong and lazy and childish and missing the point and if you were GOOD enough you would AGREE with it)
I lost heart with the catholic church a long time ago but did not have the imagination or confidence to do anything constructive about it, just wandered off, feeling terrible about it, and drinking too much. Because of this my children are not baptised. I have recently talked to my vicar about having them baptised and it is filling me with the most insane joy that this is something we can do and will do. It is just flooding me. I am welling up now thinking about it.
Custardo, I really hope you find peace and I suggest that you visit some c of e churches and think about it. they are all very different from each other I think, and there is more emphasis on finding a style of worship that fulfills your needs
Yes, Jake. I think the Catholic Church are hugely out of step with the vast majority of it's priests & flock - and so too is the CofE, perhaps to a lesser, though still significant, extent.
But it's alright for them, swanning around in their golden palaces, while everyone else takes the flack for their medieval pronouncements.
thanks curry eater and mrs rochester cat for sharing your views amongst condoms and papal Aids
I agree with you mrsrochester, fake is exactly it, i know i know i know its wrong to think like that. i know that the religeon - by my own standards at least should be the vessel for my faith.
arses to it - the more i read daily on the catholic church, the more i wonder why i would want to be part of it.
If I wanted to learn how best to train and look after a performing giraffe, the last person whose opinion I would respect would be someone who had taken an oath never to own or train one.
If I wanted advice on sexual and family matters....
Custardo , glad I found this thread as I'm really struggling too at the moment. Have been missing in action since the lady in Ireland died (which coincided with the spuc visit to our church) DH is still taking DD, everyone is asking where I am but I feel pretty annoyed with it all. The gay marriage Christmas message just about finished me off.
I have been looking around this thread, it is very interesting. I am not a Roman Catholic so I am not sure I can comment on the specifics of the Roman Catholic response to gay marriage.
I have been thinking about this a lot of late and I know the subject of gay marriage is something other denominations are grappling with too.
I went to an Anglican (Church of England) Church for many years and of late we have attended a free church.
If you wish to read about other denominations response to this subject, this is quite interesting:
Or to listen to Steve Chalke:
I could not find the actual 'talk' except on Adrian Warnock website:
For me features of the 'argument' are (as well as some people thinking they are right and what they think should apply to all) that perhaps for the majority this is something they feel really compelled to believe in. So not exactly a choice for them, if you see what I mean. It does not mean the rest of society has to agree but I am saying they are not necessarily being awkward in thinking this! Does this make sense?
Another major factor is a fear that if the laws are changed than Christians will be compelled to do things they don't want to do, such as perform gay weddings in their churches. I fee (just my humble opinion) that churches should be allowed to perform or not perform gay weddings in their churches according to what that particular church believes. There are a number of gay bed and breakfasts in the UK. Whether all of these are exclusively for gay couples or not, I don't know. But certainly some will want to receive gay customers as opposed to others. I think they should have the right to have gay people staying only. By the same token if any others wish to only have straight people in their bed and breakfasts then I think that is fine too. Some people have been prosecuted for not allowing gay couples in their bed and breakfast. So again by the same token I think churches should be able to choose whether they will marry gay couples or not. I do genuinely think that this fear of being prosecuted/persecuted because of this issue is what is partly driving many churches to be so critical. It does seem that individual Christians have a variety of beliefs, and churches do too, but that fear is a factor.
Just wanted to add my thoughts. Hope you do not mind.
We had a card handed to all of us at church today which urged us to send it to our MP asking them to vote against the marriage (same sex couples) bill. I am very angry about their assumption that all Catholics will support this. How, when people use marriage to stay in a country, is marriage seen as a ceremony which is completely sacred, or where there is DV within a marriage and they are persuaded to stay? The churches should acknowledge that love is such a very important reason to get married and commitment as well. It does not harm me if gay people are allowed to get married, it doesn't devalue my relationship with my husband.
I bet my priest has signed it. miserable sod.
We were all urged to write to our MPs last week. I will write, but not in the terms suggested! I listen to my conscience on such things.
The vast majority of practising Catholics seem to disagree with
large parts of the church's social teaching. Including a significant number of priests. This has been the case for years. You would think there would be some kind of organised way of voicing this.
I didn't know you could 'officially' resign.
Very good idea to write to your MP, but to write what you believe, rather than what you have been told to say.
The way I see it, if the church (RC or otherwise) don't want to perform gay marriages, then fine. They don't have to. There are plenty of other places you can get married. You don't go to supermarkets for weddings because they don't do them.
What gets my back up is that the church seems to think it has a say on these things like they "own" marriage or something perhaps they should
butt the f*&# out mind their own business.
My priest signed it. He is proud of himself. They handed out postcards to send to your MP today so you can lodge your objection with a mere signature. I had already written a letter to my MP inspired by
copied from one from queeringthechurch.com
My priest signed it.
Thankfully I haven't had to listen to him pontificate about it as I haven't been able to go to Mass for the last three weeks. Thank goodness that also meant I missed the postcards for my MP.
My children are attending/have attended the parish school and until recently we have had a lovely sense of community. Now I see fewer and fewer people at Mass and I just feel that my priest is telling me I'm not a good enough Catholic because I'm not hard line enough.
I just posted this on another thread and I know this is a very old one but I jjust wanted to share this.
Just watched all of this. It is very long but it is brilliant and moving.
The letter is a huge over-reaction and fantasy on the part of the Catholic Church. (IMHO) As a Catholic, it really winds me up. However, like most Catholics, I pick and choose what I believe in. The important thing to me is my relationship with God and not what some stupid tosser men think.
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