I'm sure I'm seeing ghosts.

(143 Posts)
GreeenFingers Sat 13-Oct-12 17:27:03

I work late afternoons as a cleaner in a school. The building is not that old, perhaps built in the early eighties.
It isn't remotely creepy but when I started I was sure I coud see children in the place, long after they'd gone home. Just fleeting glimpses that would make me turn my head. Thre was no " aura" or chill in the air that you sometimes associate with ghostly activity.
I tried to ignore it, not because I was frightened because I wasn't, but because I thought it might be my anxiety at having to do this job ( I had to take any work following redundancy)
However, although I'm very settled there now I am seeing just as much activity.
I have not mentioned this to all my collegues as I dont want to freak them out.I told my supervisor who informed me she had seen things in the old part of the school, that is set apart from this annex.
Has anyone else had such an experience?

CrikeyOHare Sat 13-Oct-12 17:31:45

I have no idea what you're seeing, but it's not ghosts, since there's no such thing.

After my grandad died I used to see shadows in my house. Things in the corner of my eye. And I felt a presence.

I apologised to him one night for not telling him I was pregnant before he died (he was very poorly and didnt know who he was) and I never felt or saw him again.

It could be spirits of children. Is there any history to the building? Was it used as something other than a school?

GreeenFingers Sat 13-Oct-12 17:38:53

It has always been a school, well the new part has

AnEerieAirOfHorror Sat 13-Oct-12 17:41:19

I would suggest taking a tape recorder or camra and trying to get some proof.

But dont worry as children are sweet and will not hurt you just keep doing your job.

I think it would be really interesting to set up a camera while you are working.

But then if you saw something on it would you go back?

GreeenFingers Sat 13-Oct-12 17:45:30

The school has automatic lights. Sometimes they stay on for ages after I've left the room, the blinds are always closed so its not like they are being triggered by light activity.

AnEerieAirOfHorror Sat 13-Oct-12 20:19:58

The lights might be on a delaed timer, so set to go off 10 minutes after no motion sensed.

GreeenFingers Sat 13-Oct-12 20:39:03

No they stay on for a long time. I've not " felt" anything at all. Like I said just think I see someone passing doors, or sometimes in the corridor.

AnEerieAirOfHorror Sat 13-Oct-12 20:44:06

Can you explain more please?

Do you see a person or shadows or just light out of the corner of your eyes?

Do you hear noises?

Is it the same place each night or the same time?

GreeenFingers Sat 13-Oct-12 20:45:50

It's not shadows, I havent noted times places etc, perhaps I should. No noises. It's just fleeting images, not eerie, just feel I'm not alone.

AnEerieAirOfHorror Sat 13-Oct-12 21:45:32

Could you keep a journel for a week and write down:

time
place
what you saw
what you hared
What you smelt
How you feel

Possible reasons could be a low frquancy sound that is emited from electrial cables and if the structure of the building is stone it could make it travle to different parts of the building. It is know to cause headaches, dizzyness and even hulisations and a feeling of being watched or feeling like your not alone.

An efm meter is used to check and most paranormal groups will have one.

Also do you wear glasses as it could be the light reflecting and your mind playing tricks.

I would want to rule out all the normal possabilits first before believing a place to be haunted.

AnEerieAirOfHorror Sat 13-Oct-12 21:46:46

Emf meter sorry for spelling im dyslexic

GhostShip Sun 14-Oct-12 17:34:02

Crikey have you realised you're on the spirituality/religion board? Dont think here is the place for comments like yours.

AnEerieAirOfHorror Sun 14-Oct-12 18:40:42

Ghostship was that aimed at me?

Please can you explain your comment?

Why not here?

Ghost are mentioned in the bible - the Father the son and the holey sprite/ghost.

Spriatlise church passes messages on for those that have past over.

Spirits and Ghost are talked about in lots of relions.

Some people even consider sicence a religion. Is it wrong to use sience to gain more evidance and facts about the world we live in made by God?

GhostShip Sun 14-Oct-12 18:44:38

No.. I was talking to the user crikeyohare

CrikeyOHare Sun 14-Oct-12 19:27:09

Crikey have you realised you're on the spirituality/religion board? Dont think here is the place for comments like yours.

What, so only people who believe are allowed to comment? Don't be ridiculous.

No such things as ghosts.

Some people even consider sicence a religion. Such people are rather silly and need to look up the terms "science" & "religion" and see how diametrically opposed they are.

GreeenFingers Sun 14-Oct-12 19:32:35

Spirits are indeed mentioned in the Bible. This is a forum in which I'm free to speak openly about matters that concern me. If you are unhappy with the subject matter " switch off" Nobody has held a gun to your head to make you read this.

GhostShip Sun 14-Oct-12 19:33:23

Crikey

No, but I think as you dont believe in any of what goes on in this section whats the point in your comments? Just because you don't believe doesn't mean they can't. Fair enough argue your case in chat (which you have done in the past) but why not leave the people here alone?

I agree with your last point by the way. I also don't think religion and science can go hand in hand as some would like to believe.

GreeenFingers Sun 14-Oct-12 19:40:35

I merely asked if anyone else had had a similar experience. I didn't ask that my credibility as a sane person be questioned.

My brother who has a doctorate ,for what it's worth, lived in a very haunted house. I never questioned his sanity.There are a lot of things in life ( and the after life) we cannot explain.

Stellarella123 Sun 14-Oct-12 19:44:18

I think your definitely seeing ghosts, spirits. Whatever u want to call it, I too have seen out the corner of my eye a person at work when iv been on my own, and I wasn't scared either (which is weird cos I'm a big scaredy cat who won't even watch a scary film!)
And there will always be people who think your mad etc, but believe what u like, smile

CrikeyOHare Sun 14-Oct-12 19:54:33

No, but I think as you dont believe in any of what goes on in this section whats the point in your comments? The same point as ANYONE'S comments on a public forum.

I haven't said anything about anyone's sanity, by the way, OP.

CrikeyOHare Sun 14-Oct-12 19:58:14

Oh and I am not in the least unhappy about the subject. I just thought that, for someone trying to decide whether they are seeing ghosts, it might be helpful to know that you can't possibly be since there are no such things.

Perhaps if you had provided alternatives your post would have been better received. Rather than a blunt "they arent real" because you say so.

GhostShip Sun 14-Oct-12 20:03:00

Crikey - I really don't think your comments have any place here. Its obvious people on this side of the forum believe in spirits, and aren't looking for a debate with you about whether or not they exist. Fair enough, if it was in Chat, go ahead. But these people come here to talk to like minded people. Not to get engaged in a debate.

DameEnidsOrange Sun 14-Oct-12 20:04:28

I used to work nights in a care home. Pretty much every member of staff had seen or felt something.

It was notoriously worse the night after a resident had passed away.

I was a true cynic, but there was one area in the lounge (which would be empty as all residents in bed) where it always felt "odd" and I would see something out the corner of my eye, or feel like there was someone there but look and see nothing.

DameEnidsOrange Sun 14-Oct-12 20:06:29

Oh and I forgot about the call bells that would ring from empty rooms.

And the shadowy figure that would appear on the (sadly non-recording) CCTV in the doorway.

And the tap-tap-tap of a walking frame coming down the main corridor.

Juule Sun 14-Oct-12 20:15:00

I've posted this link before.
Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Vic Tandy on Ghosts and Infrasound

As I think a pp has said, there might be reasons for seeing things and odd feelings which would be more likely than a ghost being present.

GreeenFingers Sun 14-Oct-12 20:20:05

I'm not after a debate, just asking if anyone else has had a similar experience. The last time I saw a "ghost" was about 25 years ago. Many other visitors to that house told me, later that they had seen things too. But the difference was there were odd smells, noise and cold spot in the house. The cat would never venture into any of the spooky rooms.
What I have recently experienced is very different. It is not unnerving in any way. But; it is very real and I'm a very level headed person.

AnEerieAirOfHorror Sun 14-Oct-12 20:28:49

I think lots of people have had experiances they lable as ghost. Im my family i know four people that have seen 'something'. It ranges from seeing fire doors opening on their own to seeing a man in a hat walk down the stairs in an empty office.

In a house I used to live in I always had a feeling of being watched. My ex felt it too. He even spoke to "it" one night and there were bangs which seemed to be in response.

But the worst part was the burglar alarm. It was never used/set. But it used to go off all the time. Only ever when we were downstairs but the screen used to say where the movement had been sensed, and it always said bedroom. So upstairs. It got so bad the LL had to have it removed as no engineer could find a fault!

MrsjREwing Sun 14-Oct-12 20:40:41

I lived in a house I was very uncomfortable in from the first day, lots of strange things happened there, including seeing things out of the corner of my eye.

expatinscotland Sun 14-Oct-12 20:43:06

What you are seeing is more than likely a playback, a bit like a tape recording, of an event that occured there.

Very rarely is it an actual spirit.

GreeenFingers Mon 15-Oct-12 12:58:18

Reading this wonder if Crikey has been dabbling in the "spirits" herself.

CrikeyOHare Mon 15-Oct-12 13:38:02

Greenfingers Kindly grow up. There's absolutely no need for infantile and unpleasant remarks like that.

Guess what? One quite possible "explanation" for all these spooky, woo woo things that keep happening is that you're imagining or misinterpreting stuff. In fact, that is in the order of several billion times more likely than that the spirits of dead children are creeping around the corridors of a school, FFS.

"I don't want a debate" - (aka I just want other people who believe nonsense to come along and agree with me).

I shall post whatever I like on whatever thread I like, thank you very much.

(Oh, and the Bible may have talked about ghosts - but it also talked about dragons, unicorns, talking snakes & men living in fishes hmm).

expatinscotland Mon 15-Oct-12 14:52:13

It's not spirits. It's rarely spirits. It is a playback of events that occurred in the location. Leftover energy.

The supernatural is only the natural which hasn't yet been explained. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Yes, you can post what you like on this forum, and people can ignore if it they chose.

chiachiarra Mon 15-Oct-12 15:05:32

Oh the shop I work in is like that. I see things on the cameras and there's no one there, and the lights go on and off. It doesn't feel scary though.

AnEerieAirOfHorror Mon 15-Oct-12 17:42:54

Ohare on the ''One Show" for april fool they did a bit about growing a unicorn. I was so excited and i was totally fooled blush i was very gutted when i found out it was a prank lol

I like to think of myself as an optamist and not a fool but sometimes there is a thin line between them.

What does it matter to you what others believe? Untill you disprove they are ghost your view has no weight at all.

Its called faith because you cant prove or disprove it so people form their own believe based on their own oppioin.

GF why not debate if ghost are real or if there is something else going on.

Why is it so important to you that you are seeing ghosts?

GreeenFingers Tue 16-Oct-12 20:52:31

Ok folks, now please may I ask that those who want to bang on about there being no such things as ghosts ,to please refrain from making comments. If I were say Jewish ,would you say your religion iis based on fantacy?
WEll tonight as I went about my cleaning job , I was too busy to think about what I'd written on my post. We were one man( or woman)down, so our schedule was pretty tight.
Nothing "odd" happened, 'till I'd just finished mopping the loos, and as I'd placed the " caution wet floor" sign outside the loos, I was met by a very strange sight. I'm not kisdding you, it was a "vision" of a lad of about twelve wearing red and blue clothes. It was very real, I uttered " I'm not imagining things, am I ?". Moments later a teacher marched past me with a " Gooodnight Lisa" She never ,ever leaves early.I observed that she'd left a raft of paperwork on her desk, and she's a super tidy freak.
Soke o the peson who used to celan my area, and she said;" It's a bit unnerving there isn't it?. I said nothing

So you think the teacher left because she saw the boy too?

CoteDAzur Tue 16-Oct-12 20:59:38

"Some people even consider sicence a religion."

Yes, fools.

CoteDAzur Tue 16-Oct-12 21:04:07

"Thre was no " aura" or chill in the air that you sometimes associate with ghostly activity"

Who is "you"?

Most of us have never thought of any such "association".

MoreBeta Tue 16-Oct-12 21:10:09

GreenFingers - is it possible that you are so used to seeing children in and around the building that your brain still registers fleeting imprints of children passing a doorway when you are in a particular room as that is a scene you have seen literally thousands of times?

GreeenFingers Tue 16-Oct-12 21:23:17

The teacher, is very dedicated, but i'm cerain somethimg spooked her out. I only muttered under my breath, and wasn;t aware she was even there to be honest.There was no chill, aura, nothing. The school is is situated on the grounds of an ancient coaching house.
What I saw, for perhaps 2 seconds, was a child, a boy of about 11 to 13 in red and blue clothes.The "thing " just vanished into thin air.
There is nothing remotely spooky about the place. However ,I did see a boy.
I have seen apparitions before at different locations, but that was 2decades ago

AnEerieAirOfHorror Wed 17-Oct-12 14:57:40

next time take a photo. You believe in ghosts and you are not scared of them so next time remeber to take a photo please.

AnEerieAirOfHorror Wed 17-Oct-12 15:15:44

Green are you going to work on Halloween?

If so i would really recommened taking a camra with you. If you are alone can you try talking out loud to the children and explain about the camra and take a few pictures?

I would be really intrested to see what you capture. I have only ever seen one Ghost and it was late at night and just a gray shadow but my mum has seen lots and as a child i remeber going round a castle and she pointed out a man in funny clothes but we thought they were actors. When i was in my late teens she told me there were no actors and it was a ghost.

My mum said you can tell by a smell that a ghost is there or if the hairs on the back of her neck standup. In there house we have had the radio turned on at 1am but the radio has no timer on. There has been knocking on the window with noone there and my grandmother that died shouting our names. There was a few lights floating around my room as well but im not sure if they were orbs or something else.

My mum turly believes she is seeing and hearing ghosts.

Another story is when she was in hospital after having my older brother and one night hearing someone push a trolly on the floor above but it was so loud it wake her up and it broke the lightshade. After the second night my mum complained to the midwife that they were noisy and kept her awake. The midwife said that was impossable as the next floor was closed off and all the doors were locked and it was deralicked. Noone else heared anything but the midwife had to clean up the broken glass.

IndigoBarbie Thu 18-Oct-12 20:57:12

Hi Green, I am sure you are sensing entities etc - but are you really wishing to investigate and gather evidence of such? or just wanting a chat about things?
How does it make you feel when you are sensing the energies?

MrsMymble Wed 24-Oct-12 13:20:37

AnEerie I saw lights floating in my ex-boyfriends bedroom years ago. Unbeknownst to us some people that came for a party the previous weekend had been playing with a ouija board upstairs. I just woke up in the night to see what I can only describe as being like little streaks of light moving really quickly. Was that anything like what you saw? There was also a feeling of 'fullness' in the room, like there was a crowd of people around us. My then BF didn't experience that but he did hear loud banging from the hall, so much so that he went downstairs with a baseball bat only to find nobody there! We only found out about the ouija board incident after we told his housemates - nothing had happened there before. I went mental at them as I was quite frightened at the time.

Pennylayne Thu 25-Oct-12 11:27:29

Well this is my first post on Mumsnet and I came to this section looking for some interesting chat and I think I found it.

It's really interesting that you are seeing fleeting glimpses of children Greenfingers and my feeling is that what you are experiencing is not ghostly as such. I think it is the 'residual' energy of the children who presently attend and have attended the school in the past.
When they all leave to go home some of the energy they generate stays in the area and if you are the type of person who is sensitive to it you pick up sounds, feelings and sometimes visual clues. I think it does depend on the person and also the frame of mind of the person. Some people would not pick up on it.

That's my thoughts on what's going on and I think that this thread is the right place to talk about things like this. There is nothing to say that posts must be about Christianity or that you shouldn't believe in an alternative after life.

garlicbaguette Mon 29-Oct-12 00:08:33

Well, OP, you asked if anyone had experienced anything similar. I have. Still do, in bursts of frequency something less than a year apart I suppose and, additionally, in places of great spiritual interest.

I'm not going to say what I think you're hoping for, though. I have an anxiety disorder. My mind performs little tricks to keep me anxious. In places of 'great spiritual interest', you can often find architectural structures that were actually intended to form echo chambers, light wells and shadow play.

You also tend to find, these days, combinations of damp and old wiring causing 'feelings' and equipment such as pumps, generators and air conditioners emitting low-frequency sound. Sub-acoustic frequencies that happen to bounce off the walls of a space the same width as the sound wave length set up a jarring effect that you can't hear but does actually make things move; you feel it and stuff may visibly vibrate, fall off shelves, etc. It can also cause visions as your retina partially detaches with the vibration!

Obviously schools feature a fair amount of equipment and plenty of different-sized spaces, meaning the chances that one or two areas could reflect a low-frequency sound wavelength are quite good.

So, what AnEerieAirOfHorror said smile

Thistledew Tue 30-Oct-12 21:47:13

I heard a ghost once. Well, I didn't, or at least I didn't know what I was hearing at the time.

I was at a pub I was working in at the time with about half a dozen other people having a drink after closing time. I was on my first drink as I had been on shift. I was sitting with my back to the door, when I heard the door open (with a distinctive squeak), and someone walked in and went around the other bar out of sight. I heard the footsteps go all the way across the pub, and then a man speaking in a drunken, slurred and angry way, although I couldn't make out what was said.

When he didn't re-appear around the bar, I went to see who it was that had come in. There was no one there.

It was absolutely impossible for anyone to have left the pub without me seeing, and all the other people in there were sitting down an nowhere near the area where I heard the sound of the door, the footsteps or the angry voice.

It sounded so normal to me that I asked the landlord where the person had gone, in complete puzzlement. He told me it was the resident ghost, and that he saw him often.

garlicbaguette Wed 31-Oct-12 00:27:55

Oooh, Thistle! Did he ever vary his routine? Ghosts seem to have a very repetitive afterlife in the main. It must be as boring as ... er, purgatory? I'd like to think your pub ghost gets to do a pub crawl round the village and the odd game of dominoes with his ghost mates, at least smile

GreeenFingers Sun 04-Nov-12 19:57:47

It's been a while but now for an update. Have been off work for a week ( half term).Before we broke up had a brief chat with the lady who used to clean my area. She asked;" so how are you finding it?" " OK, thanks, but it's bit spooky at times"I relpied." She chuckled.
A new mwnber of staff started the week before we broke up. She was lovely and we really clicked.However, all the staff noted that al the cleaning products,buffers etc were getting moved around,and kept blaming each other.
I know this was nothing to do with the new member of staff as I was mentoring her.It was bizzare. I found three identical products in my " hidey hole" and I only ever have one of each. A vacuum cleaner vanished for hours and was found in another part of the building. I'm not saying it was the work of ghosts, but there was something very strange going on

slalomsuki Mon 05-Nov-12 09:45:00

I don't believe in ghosts but I live at what was an entrance to an old stately home which was knocked down by the "historically aware" council in the 1960's. The locals tell me that it is renowned for a white lady ghost who lives on what was the drive way to the old house just outside of hers. I have never seen her.

But further down the main road I pass a part which is where the servants of the house would have walked to work from the local village. When I drive past this place which I do at weekends I often see a "picture" out of the corner of my eye of a man in a dark jacket watching the servants gate. When I loom there is nothing there and I don't see it every time.

I am rational and don't get freaked about this but one of my kids commented on seeing a man there when there was nobody which we all laughed about but was an interesting observation.

GreeenFingers Fri 23-Nov-12 21:52:36

Well now something very interesting has happened. I have been told many times that I have an uncanny " knowing" about people. At least ten times this week ,people at work have asked me if I'n psychic?? I never thought that ,but in conversations they have asked how do you know so and so, and the conversations have been so fleeting. I just answer; " Wel it's a bit like " cookies" I just glean stuff"! they were not convinced. At a nearly new sale, I thanked a complete stranger for donating her jacket. She said " how did you know it was my jacket?". I couldn't say why.I just knew. Sometimes I am scared by my predictions. I told a friend that Prince Philli[ wouldd be gravelly il at Xmas and she said " well, he's old" I'm frightened to open up to people I meet in case I'm tooo forward. I'm seldom wrong.

belle1992 Wed 07-Aug-13 19:33:20

I think some people are naturally more sensitive and in touch with their spiritual side, I'm slightly psychic too greenfingers, didn't ask to be and It doesn't bother me It's just part of who I am. There's so much we don't know about the unknown! To most of us we're intrigued and find these stories of ghosts and spirits exciting , and there's some who don't have the ability to see the world as anything other than what we see with our eyes and touch with our hands. They mock those that believe because they can't understand it, I would much rather be able to experience my life in 3D than 2D.

IndigoBarbie Wed 07-Aug-13 23:44:56

Well said belle smile

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Aug-13 23:55:45

Wow, a thread fom 2012. You sure can see dead stuff, Belle smile

LEMisdisappointed Wed 07-Aug-13 23:57:59

A zombie ghost thread!!

LEMisdisappointed Wed 07-Aug-13 23:58:42

you are on this thread though Cote grin

CoteDAzur Thu 08-Aug-13 00:02:05

Oh yes, I am. I was more blunt then.

I have mellowed with age (not) grin

daftdame Sun 11-Aug-13 12:01:12

Hmm the Bible does mention spirits and people being able to discern them, as a gift, but also prohibits 'communing' with the dead, medium type activities etc. I expect because it can be dangerous...

Just because you can detect a presence does not mean you are 'communing' with the dead though.

Personally I think there are all sorts of things we can potentially perceive, however we just don't know much about them. If you read anything about eyesight and the way the brain perceives the information delivered through the optic nerve there is all sorts of potential. I think there is probably all sorts of spiritual stuff in this world, it is just we don't always perceive it.

daftdame Sun 11-Aug-13 12:03:49

Hah I've just noticed Zombie Ghost thread grin.

misskatamari Sun 11-Aug-13 19:27:57

Crikey - the comment that "ghosts don't exist" is merely your opinion. You cannot quote it as fact as it isn't one. Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

headinhands Sun 11-Aug-13 21:19:31

Crikey - the comment that "ghosts don't exist" is merely your opinion. You cannot quote it as fact as it isn't one. Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

If I told you that there was an invisible leprechaun living under my bed would you believe me? Would you be as ambivalent about that claim as you are of ghosts? If not why not?

IndigoBarbie Mon 12-Aug-13 12:58:57

I'd believe you headinhands

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 13:30:51

That's really great because he just told me you gotta send me £50 ;)

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 13:33:38

Indigo He's an evil leprechaun don't listen to him!grin

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 14:06:38

Yeah I think he is too actually. How can I get rid of him?

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 14:10:48

daftdame Just ignore him, he feeds off attention...

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 14:45:04

I think I'll keep him. It's a good excuse for why my bedroom is a mess smile but seriously, how do you decide if what someone claims as the truth. You must have some sort of discernment you use?

CoteDAzur Mon 12-Aug-13 15:58:08

Indigo - I think you just left "open minded" territory and crossed into "mind so open that air blows through it" grin

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 15:58:26

Headinhands - of course not. However plenty of people have had experiences which they can't explain and do believe in the possibilities of ghosts. I didn't say I personally believed in ghosts - just that it can't be stated as FACT that they don't exist as we just don't know. Personally I am open to believing and am not going to tell people that what they may have experienced isn't real just because at the moment we don't know if they are real or not.

I just don't like blanket putting down of others opinions because they don't fall in line with another persons belief which was the point I was making.

If the poster had said "I don't believe in ghosts" fine but saying "they aren't real" as a blanket shutting down statement annoys me.

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 16:27:11

The Bible talks about 'spiritual discernment' which is supernatural, in that you can know what is good without reasoning.

Strictly speaking 'ghosts' would not be actual dead people but 'spirits'. People who had what would now would probably be described as having schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder are described as being 'possessed' by spirits. This makes sense because they are delusional, they do not have a true perception and Jesus preached the Truth. If you think of the word Zeitgeist, spirit of the time, this fits in with how spirit and perception are linked. Also, I believe, in a way bad experiences can 'haunt' people if they affect their thinking and physical condition very deeply, trauma can involve hallucinations as well, as in 'Gulf War syndrome' and 'Shell Shock'.

In Christianity every living person has a spirit (essence, core, dictating thoughts / actions), soul (cognitive, thinking part) and body.

The common modern day understanding of the word spirit I think is slightly limited, it tends to refer to just essence left when someone dies. The only 'spirits' a Christian would commune with is The Holy Spirit. A Christian's 'spirit' does not roam the earth after death.

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 18:16:11

just that it can't be stated as FACT that they don't exist as we just don't know

The person making the claim has to provide the proof. I cannot say that there is no such thing as ghosts because I am not omniescent but what I can say is that there is no data that constitutes evidence and as such have to assume that it's extremely extremely unlikely what with it contravening all the known laws of physics and so on.

If I start taking personal experience as evidence, then I am intellectually forced into believing not only every single supposed supernatural entity that I have ever heard of, but also 4200 different religions, and I'm a busy gal!

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 18:22:14

*I just don't like blanket putting down of others opinions because they don't fall in line with another persons belief which was the point I was making.

If the poster had said "I don't believe in ghosts" fine but saying "they aren't real" as a blanket shutting down statement annoys me.*

I'm happy for people to say what they want, it bears no reflection on me what another thinks. If they say something that is different to what I think in response to something I say then I'm more than happy with that and happy to continue debate. I guess it's always best to keep in mind that this is an entirely public space, and this sort of discussion is probably not for someone who will feel put down by a rejection of their beliefs.

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 18:28:59

headinhands But I bet you would acknowledge there are things out there that are beyond yours any any other person's understanding. In this way they are 'supernatural', because we cannot prove or comprehend them fully.

I am very interested in perception, there is scientific evidence concerning how perceptions can be altered and resulting brain physiology can often be measured and variance found when people are found not to be interpreting what they see for example correctly. People are also shown to be very suggestible.

If you designate the term spiritual to this altered perception, for example, delusions would be bad as in not seeing the Truth, you can see how this fits in with spirits as written about in the Bible.

The leap of Faith comes when the spirit is acknowledged as an outside force. However I like to think what makes me, me is more than a collection of DNA, nerves, synapses and chemical reactions so it is a leap I am very happy with.

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 18:30:22

The Bible talks about 'spiritual discernment' which is supernatural, in that you can know what is good without reasoning.

So potentially your reasoning could say this thing is bad/evil but the spirit could be saying the opposite? That's deeply alarming interesting.

Anyways, this thread is about ghosts so as much as I'd love to have a thrash about over the bible (and I would!) I'm going to leave it at that <polishes mn halo>

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 18:34:51

so it is a leap I am very happy with

And there's the money shot. You believe what you believe because it makes you happy on some level. I don't want to think things just because they make me feel good. I want to think things that are factual and face the reality of our universe which is pretty darn fantastic is it is smile

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 18:35:16

As I said Headinhands - My comment was just that it seems unfair for the mentioned poster to just state "They aren't real" and that's that. People can believe what they like. As this is a religion and spirituality board some people will have very religious beliefs and others may have beliefs of a more spiritual nature. As such I feel it is important to respect each others beliefs and not to shut them down which was the only issue I had with that one post very early up the thread.

I'm not here to debate whether ghosts are real or to convince anyone of their existence. Obviously scientific evidence would be needed to confirm any type of proof - my point about experience was that if a person has had such an experience then they will likely believe in ghosts. I have not had such, therefore am open minded to the possibility however have nothing to base a belief in ghosts etc on.

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 18:38:00

Headinhands - surely any belief in religion is a leap of faith?

Im a scientist, I love science and find it amazing how much we know and are continuing to discover about our universe. However I am open minded about the things we do not currently know and have religious beliefs which are my own because they make sense to me and are how i choose to believe the things we don't understand.

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 18:42:46

"As such I feel it is important to respect each others beliefs and not to shut them down"

Beliefs don't automatically deserve respect. A person's right to hold a belief does, but not the belief itself. It's up to the poster not to feel shut down and offended. If they do that easily because of words on a screen they probably shouldn't be airing their beliefs.

If someone rejects anything I say then I will try to elaborate why I have said that. Feeling offended would just seem a little silly seeing as I don't even know you and I am well aware that all over the world, all the time there are people thinking different things to me.

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 18:48:55

* However I am open minded about the things we do not currently know and have religious beliefs which are my own because they make sense to me and are how i choose to believe the things we don't understand.*

I think I'm fairly open minded too, but guess I just require evidence when the claims are huge. I think it was Carl Sagan who said something like 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'.

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 18:51:10

I think this is deteriorating into semantics and i'm not really clear on the issue you have with what I posted. I made one comment, as I thought that it was unfair to come onto a thread in a spirituality area and make the statement that was made. I explained why I thought this, which to me seems perfectly reasonable - we have no facts so stating something as fact seemed unfair and seemed (imo) to be a dismissal of the OP's question in a manner that seemed unnecessary.

As I said, I have no problem with others having different beliefs, but yes I do find it rude and unfair to shut down another person beliefs, based purely on ones own. As I said, I don't really understand your issue with what I posted. I just said that we don't know if ghosts are real or not (because we don't) so to me it doesn't seem right to just come on and say "they're not real" as a fact as we just don't know.

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 18:52:37

Surely the point of faith is that it doesn't require evidence though? That is what religion is based on is it not?

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 18:58:38

Surely the point of faith is that it doesn't require evidence though? That is what religion is based on is it not?

Am happy to discuss religion on any of the other religion debate threads here but as this one is about ghosts then I'm going to sit on my hands for this one.

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 19:00:29

it doesn't seem right to just come on and say "they're not real" as a fact as we just don't know.

Remember my friend the leprechaun? Would you be as happy to be as ambivalent about his existence as you are ghosts?

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 19:06:48

but yes I do find it rude and unfair to shut down another person beliefs

If a person feels their beliefs shut down so easily they should probably step away from the Internet. This area is Philosophy/religion/spirituality. I'm fascinated with the things people (myself included) believe and why,. People are free to ignore my posts.

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 19:09:45

headinhands
So potentially your reasoning could say this thing is bad/evil but the spirit could be saying the opposite? That's deeply alarming interesting.

Yes, because our fallible biology, preconceptions and suggestible nature is not to be trusted entirely. From this perspective you cannot fully reason without being able to entirely trust the information. Consensus does not really help as we are all fallible, as human beings. So what people call 'reasoning' boils down to faith in the end. It is a Zeitgeist, if you like. Would you question what your reasoning said if the scientific community claimed the opposite? Is is just the same really....

I want to think things that are factual and face the reality of our universe which is pretty darn fantastic is it is smile

I would agree here, but also think it is fascinating and all the more interesting because of what we don't fully comprehend and cannot establish as fact.

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 19:11:21

Do you understand my point about that particular comment though? As I said I don't really understand the issue you seem to have with what I posted? As I said, the poster did not elaborate or state it as their belief they stated it as FACT and that was what I personally (plus others up the thread) did not like about the statement. Surely that makes sense?

As for the leprechaun - I have never met a person who sincerely believes in their existence, I have met people who believe in ghosts. Yes I am more likely to believe in the possibility that ghosts exist. Is your issue the fact that I am open to the fact that ghosts might exist? I'm not clear on the issue, I'm sorry.

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 19:16:50

headinhands Your leprechaun may exist spiritually, amongst the people who believed in him. grin The belief could be an (outside) agent which affects their thoughts, actions ultimately brain physiology, if it is so strong they start to 'hallucinate'.

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 19:21:59

The point I was making was that although I couldn't say that there are definitely not ghosts that a, it's very very unlikely that there are and that b,the person who thinks there are ghosts has to stump up the evidence. Is there any supernatural claim that you are almost certain is not true?

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 19:23:46

So daft. Does my leprechaun exist? Could it be observed and tested by a range of independent witnesses?

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 19:26:38

Supernatural = something that acts outside the 'laws of nature' (which we don't fully comprehend).

Unlikely? Why?

Evidence? If we don't fully understand the 'laws of nature' would we be able to appreciate or even perceive the evidence or lack of it?

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 19:27:24

I think it was the 'merely your opinion that I took objection to. They either exist or they don't. It's not like a "is Elvis music good?" question can't stand it myself It's a yes or a no. How do we decide if something exists or not? Via evidence, not opinion.

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 19:28:38

You find me an independent witness first...grin

or someone who knew how to test or had the 'correct' perception in terms of observing, or could interpret the results.

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 19:32:14

Okay, I see your point more now, however by saying the person who believes should stump up evidence - surely the person who does not believe should do so also.

To be fair, the OP said she believes she may have seen a ghost and was asking for thoughts etc - she wasn't saying "fact they exist" like the poster who I had that one issue with was.

Is there any supernatural claim that you are almost certain is not true? I'm sure there are many - again I don't understand your pov regarding my opinion - I have not said I believe in ghosts/the supernatural or I do not, as I said I don't know. They are not proven, they are not unproven (on the whole). Yes there are many explanations which I think can usually explain ghostly supernatural phenomenon in a more scientific way that "dead person wandering around".

Again, my ONLY point and issues was with a post that that said something was a FACT when we don't know for sure. I don't know how much I can simplify that, or really why there is a problem with that.

Anyway i'm off to prepare for the zombie apocalypse!

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 19:33:34

Seriously the 'leprechaun' exists if people see it, albeit as a disorder.

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 19:34:49

I choose to apply the same logic and reasoning to everything about the world. I don't like to make stuff up. if I don't reject all claims that have no evidence, but accept the ones I like or any other reason then I lose my intellectual integrity,

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 19:36:50

So someone without the disorder can observe the leprechaun? I appreciate someone may think it exists but it either exists or it doesn't.

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 19:40:42

That sounds like a nice ordered way of thinking. I personally am happy to believe things because for whatever reason they make sense to me. Just like if a person is religious they believe things without evidence.

Are you saying there is something wrong with others accepting without evidence? Or are you happy to let me have me views of the world and you have yours? I don't mean that to sound argumentative and apologise if it comes off that way - it is just how it read from your post and could be my interpretation.

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 19:41:37

Nope, the person who makes the claim has to bring the evidence. That's how it works. I'm not making a claim. I'm saying there is no evidence for ghosts so have no choice but to reject such a claim.

As for the zombie apocalypse, I see the Duke of Edinburgh was out and about today bad bad headinhands

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 19:41:47

If they see the leprechaun then I suppose it exists to them wink

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 19:43:24

But then who deems what is seen as a disorder?

Everyone's eyesight is subjective to some extent, for example in colour perception eg blue or green, black or very deep blue? Plumping for one is as much a decision as saying shadows or hazy objects, things we see out of the corner of our eyes are 'ghosts' or not.

To me it is fascinating the degree in which there is consensus and suggestibility. A lot of what is described as ghosts is hazy and fuzzy, corner of the eye stuff, right at the edge of our perceptions.

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 19:46:56

The person making the claim requires evidence if they are wishing to prove as fact. The op wasn't. It is their belief based on their experience. They don't need evidence to have belief/faith in something. It is up to them.

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 19:47:25

If they expect you to believe it then yes - evidence required.

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 19:59:37

Whole societies can believe in supernatural things and have many sightings of them. They may be 'hallucinating' or maybe the people who don't perceive them just have less sensitive perception.

Who is to say which is correct?

If a spirit acts as an agent, some people may be more sensitive than others, as for people with acute hearing can detect very high frequency sounds but others don't. The people with acute hearing don't have 'malfunctioning hearing'. Before we knew how to measure sound frequency, though, they may have seemed odd.

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 20:22:55

The problem with the sound frequency analogy is that we discovered higher and lower frequencies as our equipment became more sensitive. Not that we discovered a whole new phenomena/area that altered what we had already observed about physics. It's not as if we have anything to build on. It comes down to the, 'without evidence I have to reject the claim or accept all claims everywhere'.

What do you suppose a ghost/spirit is made of? What elements do you think it might be made from?

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 20:30:13

I don't think ghosts exist so I don't have any scientific idea of what they are made from. They might exists, I don't know. Maybe they are made of something we don't yet understand or maybe they don't exist. Scientific ideas change as we learn more about the world and gather more evidence.

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 20:45:38

I've been thinking about this after seeing the post on what happens when we die.

If ghosts do exist (and I mean that in the fact that there are things which people see and we call ghosts) then I personally don't think that they are the spirit of a dead person walking the Earth. If anything I would potentially agree with the ideas further up the thread of a kid of "echo" which someone who is more sensitive to such things if picking up on. Again that is just how it would make sense to me without any actual evidence to base it on.

The idea of infrasounds is also very interesting and could also be used to explain a lot of the things people experience as supernatural.

I don't like the idea of ghosts/spirits being around and able to communicate (e.g through a psychic) despite lots of people believing in that. One because of lack if evidence and two because I don't like to think that after we die we just wait around watching the living - boring!!!

As I said I'm not here to debate whether ghosts exist or try to convince anyone yes or no. I think yes I believe people have experiences where they feel/see things that can't necessarily be easily explained - and those things are often called ghosts. What they are and the reasons for them I don't know.

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 20:56:14

head There was a point in history before sound equipment existed, or was even imagined. So the people who could hear high frequency sound would have seemed odd.

What they had to build on came through thought and observation, or indeed revelation! I'm just saying there is much yet to be discovered...or be revealed to us. smile

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 21:07:57

Again we have no reason to think ghosts are real so no analogy is going to make it any more logical. Suppose I tell you insects can learn to talk in English to us and that as yet we just don't have the equipment to detect it, but like discovering high and low frequencies we may do later on. We could say that about anything I could possibly imagine. No, for me i'll stick to where the evidence is and points to otherwise again I need to give credence to everything anyone can suggest.

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 21:13:12

Furthermore we already have adequate explanations for supposed paranormal experiences. Without good evidence it would be sensible and logical not to look for another explanation. Occam's razor and all that jazz.

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 21:15:49

Yes, but I do have restraints, for me the Bible is Truth. For you I expect 'scientific proof' is truth. That is not enough for me, since 'scientific proof' is fallible...

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 21:42:56

That's you're prerogative headinhands. If I want to believe in ghosts and unicorns though I am happy to do so, if that is what I think makes sense to me.

Not that that was even my point. Just don't like non-facts being said to be facts.

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 21:44:29

Science being fallible and open to change is what makes it so good. Science will adapt as new evidence/information comes to light.

I'm not a scientist or sciencey but I am obviously very grateful to all the benefits that science has conferred. Like this! You could be in Timbuktoo for all I know.

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 21:49:26

The long gone op said she was sure she was seeing ghosts. Are you equally happy for another poster to say they are sure there are no ghosts?

daftdame Mon 12-Aug-13 21:53:58

But if Truth is revealed by God to us, we need to thank God and not Science, for advancements.

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 22:07:44

Yes I am perfectly happy with that.

misskatamari Mon 12-Aug-13 22:08:16

but there are tho, aren't there...

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 22:10:08

daftme, I'd love to discuss the bible with you but we should probably meet on a different thread. I'll go and make one...

headinhands Mon 12-Aug-13 22:13:54

No there isn't. :P

janji Tue 13-Aug-13 04:11:12

Worked in a very old school myself. We had a ghost! The building was built in the days of open fires in classrooms, many of which could still be seen despite being bricked or boarded up. I would often feel little tugs on my trousers only to spin around and no one there. In a class full of children, all of the (very high) windows slammed shut despite it being impossible or the wind to do so (they opened inwards not outwards). My colleague was teaching a class of y6 children when she and the class heard a male voice asking if it was clocking off time yet? The school has a history of one of its original builders dying from an accident whilst co strutting the school over 100 yrs ago! As teachers we just had to make excuses to the children but they all witnessed these odd events.

garlicagain Tue 13-Aug-13 04:48:33

I don't know what to make of your stories, janji, but it's quite fun to see a dead thread brought to life before our very eyes smile

Head - "it either exists or it doesn't" - this is no longer true, is it, in physics? It can exist, then not exist, then exist again! Not only that, but it can do that in many different places at the same time! I love introducing a bit of quantum theory to 'faith' threads; things go so very loopy, so very quickly ...

... just throwing Schroedinger's cat among the ghostly pigeons ...

misskatamari Tue 13-Aug-13 06:46:02

Personally I don't know whether I "believe" in ghosts etc however I do love a good ghost story and am not really concerned with jumping in trying to credit/discredit them, I just find them interesting smile

misskatamari Tue 13-Aug-13 06:48:36

And...Schrödinger's cat...alive AND dead? Errr maybe GHOST!!! wink

IndigoBarbie Tue 13-Aug-13 07:30:36

I think ghosts are made from photons. I can't prove it.

headinhands Tue 13-Aug-13 08:05:50

Morning!

Hmm Shrödinger's cat, am aware of it but don't fully understand it. My first thought about your scenario is that we can see an alive cat and a dead cat. Do we need to know that the two states can be possible before the experiment works?

headinhands Tue 13-Aug-13 08:17:41

Draughts can slam things shut from the inside, you said the school was old? (Were the windows the type where you use a pole to open them and the hinge is at the bottom?) My loft hatch used to lift up and over to the side when the conditions were right.

You can snag your skirt hem on tables, chairs, drawers. You can even have a long loose thread hanging that snags and tugs.

There are many other logical and reasonable and more likely explanations available before introducing something we have no evidence for.

misskatamari Tue 13-Aug-13 08:20:11

Oh dear, it was a joke! Lovely to hear a new ghostly experience on this thread (which is what the thread was about). For now I think I'm done as I'm not interested in debating the evidence/reality etc of the supernatural. Too much morning sickness to get into such things for me today alas!

headinhands Tue 13-Aug-13 08:26:27

miss hope you feel better soon.

misskatamari Tue 13-Aug-13 08:36:38

Thanks, thought I was over it but feeling rotten today hmm luckily I'm on holiday so can just rest and be sick to my hearts content smile

Have a good day

CoteDAzur Tue 13-Aug-13 08:37:19

""it either exists or it doesn't" - this is no longer true, is it, in physics?"

It is still true. Quantum physics explains some phenomena in subatomic particles that are so small that we can't observe them in the usual way of bouncing photons off them (i.e. seeing them in light). You can't use it to talk about whether your car exists or if it's a cloud of possibilities.

And still those particles either exist or they don't. We can and do detect them when they are generated. You may have noticed the existence of the CERN particle laboratory where their existence is documented on a regular basis. Yes, we live in a world where the existence of subatomic particles is proven and yet, there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of ghosts. What does that tell you?

Schrodinger's Cat is a pure thought experiment. The ideas it references were never meant to apply to stuff like an actual animal.

Read a book about Quantum Theory before you try to use it as justification for believing in nonsense things for which there is no proof whatsoever.

headinhands Tue 13-Aug-13 09:51:04

Indigo. Can you elaborate on the photon theory?

garlicagain Tue 13-Aug-13 13:23:19

Excellent. Both Cote and Indigo bit immediately grin

garlicagain Tue 13-Aug-13 13:44:05

Cote - subatomic particles can be in several places at once. The phenomenon's even been harnessed under lab conditions, using a single photon as the 'body' to be transported. I wonder whether this is why Indigo reckons ghosts are photons? It would make an appealing theory, what with photons being "particles of light" and all. Unfortunately, Indigo, they only used a photon because it's a very tiny and basic entity - it was a convenience, rather than a special ability of photons.

Being in multiple places at once leads to quantum entanglement, which is way more interesting and strange than ghosts ... it does, however, release certain observations that seem to reflect what woo evangelists have been saying all along! The key difference (apart from the size & complexity of the entities) is that entangled particles are real. The copies aren't just phantoms of the original, as ghosts are said to be.

Btw, Cote & others - I don't claim to know much about physics; I just read the scientific articles with diagrams I can understand! And am a pragmatic philosopher smile

headinhands Tue 13-Aug-13 13:45:04

That's the problem with this woo stuff. I can't tell when believers are joking or not from some of the claims made. :D

CoteDAzur Tue 13-Aug-13 16:59:11

Quantum entanglement is not being in multiple places at once.

I'll come back to this thread when I have a bit more time, but seriously, if you are going to argue something based on QT, you really need to know a little bit about its basics first,

misskatamari Tue 13-Aug-13 17:09:22

Quantum physics makes my brain hurt! My husband has loads of books on interesting physics things that I hope to one day read - however I'm a biochemist so physics is my weakest science. I think my brain just isn't made that way - I find it absolutely amazing but when ever I get answers to even simple things my mind boggles at their complexity and amazingness!

That being said I am interested in woo things. I always have been, just find them interesting smile

MostlyLovingLurchers Tue 13-Aug-13 18:08:25

I normally read these threads and get a bit fed up with the constant demand for evidence. I love a metaphysical discussion and have a fair few beliefs that would no doubt be placed firmly in the woo camp. I strongly believe people should be able to discuss their beliefs and ideas without being constantly scorned, patronised and ridiculed.

However, it really doesn't help when folk try to use physics as proof of the metaphysical. If these things could be proven through the natural sciences then they would be, or at least there would be some evidence if not definitive proof. Maybe one day there will be, in the same way we once never knew about microwaves or neutrinos. But as it stands science does not support a single metaphysical theory - in part because once it does it is no longer in the realm of the supernatural, a bit like learning that thunder isn't caused by Thor wielding his hammer.

In my pagan days there were often mutterings about As Above So Below, basically that what happens on the small scale is also true on the larger canvas, like fractals. So, something like subatomic particles, disappearing and reappearing, travelling through two apertures at the same time, etc, may well turn out to have some wider implication for how the universe works. That would be lovely, but as things stand it does not constitute a proof or even an explanation for ghosts, god or anything else for that matter.

I certainly don't think a lack of empirical proof means an absence of phenomena. People should be able to share and discuss their experiences and philosophies without being constantly asked to prove what is by its nature unprovable, though of course shouldn't be surprised if people look for a rational explanation first, and of course should be doing this themselves. Evidence can be experiential or philosophical and both are valid areas of discussion, but they do not meet current scientific criteria for evidence and that should be accepted. Science on the other hand IS limited and it would be foolish to discount the possibility that some people may experience things that may come to be proven.

Glad I got that of my chest.

misskatamari Tue 13-Aug-13 18:36:28

Agree wholehearted! I love a good spooky thread - it's a shame there don't seem to be many anymore hmm I guess I just love a spooky story grin

garlicagain Tue 13-Aug-13 18:56:17

I certainly don't think a lack of empirical proof means an absence of phenomena - Well, no, or else scientists would have no phenomena to explain grin

The absence of scientific explanation is neither evidence that a phenomenon doesn't exist, nor that the explanation is supernatural/magical/religious/alien. It simply means nobody's satisfactorily evaluated it yet. I remember when 'upwards lightning' was deemed - by scientists - to be some kind of optical malfunction suffered by air crew (thousands of them!) while dream pedlars claimed all sorts of things about it, mostly to do with alien intervention. Now there is a proper physical explanation, and scientists these days aren't so quick to dismiss eye-witness reports.

People should be able to discuss their experiences without being constantly asked to prove what is by its nature unprovable, though of course shouldn't be surprised if people look for a rational explanation first. - The thing is, they get terribly upset when people do look for, and indeed offer, rational explanations based on known facts. In threads on here, those of us with a more pragmatic approach keep being told to shut up because our "belief system" deserves no more respect than theirs. Empirical fact is not a belief system! Those whose faiths demand that they ignore empirical facts, in favour of "beliefs", seem unable to grasp the difference between my approach and theirs.

Evidence can be experiential or philosophical and both are valid areas of discussion, but they do not meet current scientific criteria for evidence and that should be accepted. - Yes, it should! By way of personal illustration, I have PTSD and have experienced psychosis in the past. These conditions affect my perception. I'm forever seeing the shadowy thing flitting across my visual periphery: it's a symptom of hypervigilance and means I need to do some mindful breathing. In the past, I could read people's thoughts and see their auras. Now, I am a perceptive kind of person (due to the hypervigilance,) but my paranormal abilities were tricks of my mind. My perception was flawed, not the science which said I was claiming the impossible.

I think it's lovely to discuss these things in reference to the chiaroscuro of human experience, but not when people dismiss practical attempts to explain 'mysterious' phenomena. That's how gaslighting works! It makes me very uncomfortable that the majority of folk on this planet actively believe in their religions' doctrines, despite overwhelming hard evidence that they are untrue. What makes me even more uncomfortable is that they're so ready to re-frame science as a faith, purely so as to dismiss it as inferior to theirs.

This may have been a bit rambly, sorry. Am tired.

headinhands Tue 13-Aug-13 22:30:47

I love sci-fI especially when it involves HUGE scary monsters, but am still able to acknowledge that it's not real. And that it's fiction.

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