God was most definitely here this evening

(121 Posts)
Zipitydooda Tue 14-Aug-12 20:24:47

He answered my prayer. I am so sure.

This sounds a bit crazy but I am on my own with no one I can speak to about it at the moment and I had to write it down.

hiddenhome Tue 14-Aug-12 22:42:44

smile

Panadbois Wed 15-Aug-12 07:15:57

Will you tell us more?

madhairday Wed 15-Aug-12 10:04:32

Please do share more if you like smile

Zipitydooda Wed 15-Aug-12 11:57:30

A close friend of mine had a stillborn baby a year ago at 37 weeks pregnant and is/was 37 weeks pregnant again yesterday when rushed into hospital with bleeding last night. I was looking after her 2 children at the time.
I had heard nothing and was praying that her and the baby were ok. I specifically pictured her having an emergency c-section to get her baby out ok (she was due to have a planned section later in the week).

A few minutes later my eldest called me from his bedroom to say he had made a wish that he could see his clock to see the time (he is on the top bunk and clock was out of his reach facing the wrong way) and straightaway a big breeze had come and blown the blind which had moved something else and turned the clock for him. He said his wish had come true; this conversation is not typical of him. At the same time I got a text from my friends phone saying they were both ok and she was being taken in for emergency section. This was my answer from God.

Still praying this morning as her baby is in special care. It doesn't sound very very serious; I am surmising from v brief text (fluid on lungs & small baby) She and her family need a happy ending and a healthy baby back home with them. I hope and pray for this for them.

TheFogHorn Wed 15-Aug-12 13:36:45

So god was there for this little one but not for the last one...or people just didn't pray enough for the first one?

Tuo Wed 15-Aug-12 13:57:42

Zipity: I am so pleased to hear that your friend's baby has been safely delivered. Praying that all will go well for them.

FogHorn: Your (many) threads make your views very clear. I really don't think this is the place. A little sensitivity?

WingDefence Wed 15-Aug-12 14:17:03

Zipity - that's fantastic! I pray the newborn comes through fine.

ginmakesitallok Wed 15-Aug-12 14:20:17

hope that new baby is OK - but agree with Foghorn, if baby is OK it will be more to do with the medical care given than the success of any prayer.

TheFogHorn Wed 15-Aug-12 15:14:38

People can beat themselves up over not praying enough or thank themselves for praying if the timing was right. They can also tell themselves someone died because it was god's will, which would make it a despicable thing. Other people can absolve themselves of guilt by putting misfortune down to karma. Disabled children are often overlooked in India due to 'repaying a debt of karma'. Lucky people can think their luck came in due to good karma and not feel obliged to help the 'Untouchables' amongst them.

I think the focus should be on the loss of life or the saving of life with no other thanks or blame handed out other than to medical staff or those provably responsible.

It's very sad to hear a baby didn't make it but it's lovely to hear this one hopefully will.

technodad Wed 15-Aug-12 19:20:37

Zipity,

I am glad things are working out for her. But all of what you said is statistically very probably indeed and you are making an assertion that there is a common cause for these things when it is extremely likely to be the case.

Well done to the doctors and all of modern science that has given them to tools and training to save the lives of people who would have not survived before modern medicine (even a few years ago).

Fog - you are spot on.

madhairday Thu 16-Aug-12 12:45:26

So glad your friend's baby is doing well, OP. She must have been through such a terrible time. sad

Not sure some comments on here are particularly helpful, but glad you have found help and peace. Hope the baby thrives from now on.

There are a great many people who gain strength, hope and peace from prayer, visualization, having a connection to people who have passed. It gives them peace of mind.
To come on to such a thread and try to make someone feel wrong or silly for having these beliefs is not a kind thing to do.

But maybe you do not believe in kindness either.

OP I am glad the baby is doing well, and you can take strength and hope from your prayers.

headinhands Thu 16-Aug-12 13:24:23

Even the posters who have suggested that there was nothing paranormal afoot have expressed their pleasure on hearing that mum and baby are okay. They've just pointed out the fundamental and illogical contradictions in assuming there is a higher power moving clocks around so a child can see what time it is while simultaneously allowing millions of people to suffer and die in dreadful circumstances. It bothers me when posters offering an alternative explanation are labelled 'unhelpful'. If I posted about evolution and an evolution-denier posted an alternative explanation that I felt uncredible I would merely disregard it or probe the posters reasoning. I wouldn't feel the need to speciously call their views 'unhelpful'.

headinhands Thu 16-Aug-12 13:29:33

If someone holding an alternative view to yourself makes you feel like your views are 'wrong or silly' you probably need to examine the strength of your convictions?

I said trying to make people feel wrong or silly.
Not succeeding.

I don't understand this obsession with having to take every bit Of pleasure someone may have from their own personal beliefs by having to jump on the thread saying well actually you are wrong

I'n situations like this it's just spite. And an overwhelming desire to be right above everyone else. To me, thats mean spirited.

seeker Thu 16-Aug-12 13:34:50

"To come on to such a thread and try to make someone feel wrong or silly for having these beliefs is not a kind thing to do.

I am amazed at the fragility of Christian beliefs. They must have changed a lot over time if a stranger on the Internet raising a question can make a modern Christian feel "wrong and silly"

^So god was there for this little one but not for the last one...or people just didn't pray enough for the first one?*

And if you don't think that is a horrible thing to say in this situation, I find that shameful.

Believe or don't believe, people can debate that all day long. But that was a fucking awful thing to post.

madhairday Thu 16-Aug-12 13:52:00

I agree, Tantrums.

It's not about fragility of beliefs. It's simply about the nature of this thread, where the OP was feeling that prayers were answered for a friend. A friend in a real situation. Perhaps views about whether prayers are/are not answered are best left for another thread, a thread based on a theoretical question rather than a person having lived through an extremely harrowing set of circumstances.

You know very well seeker that me and many of my fellow Christians are more than happy to engage with views and ideas different to ours. Can you not see that here is not the place?

headinhands Thu 16-Aug-12 15:56:16

But it wasn't the mum herself who had posted. The op is a friend of said mother who now felt her friends baby would be okay because god had heard her prayer. I think people are allowed to suggest otherwise. I think it's natural to question the logic of that assertion.

I don't see how it's horrible to wonder why god didn't step in the previous time. Can you explain why that is actually horrible?

No one is suggesting that people shouldn't hold and cherish memories of passed loved ones. No one is minimising the personal agony of such losses. What I do suggest is that there are many alternatives to a belief in the afterlife to comfort the mourning that are just as valid, actually more valid but that's obviously my opinion.

technodad Thu 16-Aug-12 19:40:03

Turn the discussion on its head and imagine the following scenario:

Someone posts a thread stating that they used to be a believer, but could now prove that God most definitely does not exist, because they had a bereavement of a young child in their family.

I am willing to bet a pretty large sum of money that many religious mums-netters would reply to the thread stating spurious comments about it being gods wish etc and trying to convince the OP that they are wrong to turn away from their faith. To be honest, I don't see how this thread is any different from that scenario (apart from the fact that this is a joyous occasion, rather than my suggested scenario which would be a vulnerable person in a state of active grief).

Zipitydooda Thu 16-Aug-12 19:56:36

I've been pondering whether to come back to this thread. I really don't want to get involved in a is-there/ isn't there discussion.

People who live on logical principles alone are impossible to argue with anyway. I'm married to one and have long given up on him and I am confident enough in my own beliefs not to be upset.

Thank you for the messages of kindness. Baby is doing well.

technodad Thu 16-Aug-12 19:59:58

I am really glad the baby is doing well.

madhairday Thu 16-Aug-12 20:02:16

That's good, Zip.

techno: I would never, ever post a comment about the loss of a child being 'God's wish' hmm , and don't know any Christians who would, either. In such a circumstance I have only seen messages of support and love, as it should be.

DioneTheDiabolist Thu 16-Aug-12 23:53:53

Actually Technodad, to turn this thread on it's head would be:

"My friend lost her child x years ago. Recently she gave birth prematurely, we all feared for her but this time her child survived. Thanks to all the medics involved in her care."

Is to thank the current now to assume that those involved with her other child were negligent?

Zippity, I am so sorry if I have hijacked your thread. I am glad that your friend's baby is (hopefully) going to be ok. And I am heartened that you feel able to post about your faith and feelings here.smile

seeker Fri 17-Aug-12 00:53:01

"Is to thank the current now to assume that those involved with her other child were negligent?"

No- because nobody has ever suggested that the medical profession are omnipotent, omniscient and all merciful.

DioneTheDiabolist Fri 17-Aug-12 01:26:32

Seeker, what do you believe god is?

TheFogHorn Fri 17-Aug-12 01:58:50

At least I didn't swear.....I thought this thread was one to be tip-toed over....?

YOU QUOTING MEME^So god was there for this little one but not for the last one...or people just didn't pray enough for the first one?*

YOU: And if you don't think that is a horrible thing to say in this situation, I find that shameful.

It's the truth you hate and anyone who points it out. It is the truth that the OP must surely believe the first baby died because the man in the sky wanted it to or because people didn't pray enough. You cannot have it both ways, although you've had it both ways for long enough.

Spare a thought for atheists who have had to live side-by-side with people who cannot and will not face the truth. Do you have any idea how annoying that is? I can tell you it is as annoying for us to put up with people who hate the truth as it is annoying for you to have to be faced with it. I understand you annoyance at me....but do can you put yourself in my shoes?

I'm not just thinking about my own annoyance. I'm thinking about the child who was involved in the 'Oh my god! That is amazing! God was here!' episode. I don't think it's in the interests of young and easily impressionable minds to be exposed to that kind of supersticious fanaticism. Maybe me posting my comments will make the OP reflect and maybe be more discerning in future.

TheFogHorn Fri 17-Aug-12 02:06:46

Zip

I'm asking you directly because you started this thread.

You are here claiming the god answered your prayers and saved your friend's baby from the same demise her previous baby suffered. That is it in a nutshell.

What I want you to try to do now is be honest.

If your praying saved this baby, does that mean the last baby died due to a lack of prayer?

neontetra Fri 17-Aug-12 08:27:19

Describing Christians as "people who hate the truth" is not an attempt at a discussion; it is deliberately inflammatory, as well as being an odd thing to say. I've never thought that those who disagree with me must "hate truth". I don't really know what "hating truth" means.

headinhands Fri 17-Aug-12 08:34:25

I may be wrong but OP hasn't said what god she prayed to and Foggy didn't use the word Christian.

headinhands Fri 17-Aug-12 08:35:59

No one want to answer Fog's question then?

lurcherlover Fri 17-Aug-12 08:47:57

I have a beautiful, healthy, funny, perfect little boy who is the light of my life. I go to church fairly regularly and every time I used to give thanks to God for my little boy.

Then I got pregnant again and had a miscarriage. I don't thank God for my little boy any more, as logic dictates that if God gave me one child, he also caused the other one to die. You can't credit God with the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff. I have spoken to many Christians about this and never had a satisfactory answer - it usually boils down to "we can't presume to know the will of God" or "faith means not having all the answers". Sorry, not good enough for me.

I'm very glad the baby in this case is doing well but it has everything to do with medical science and nothing to do with God. If you think it doesn't, ask yourself this - would this baby have survived 200 years ago? Unlikely. So why wouldn't God save it then when he would now? Does God love our generation more than previous ones? He must do if he's only now sending us all these advances in medical equipment to save more lives...or did we do that all by ourselves?

It's a sad place where people would take a personal tragedy and turn it into something spiteful.
There's a lot of debate about the existence of god or whatever or whoever you believe in.
I love debates like that. Tbh I have no idea whether god does indeed exist, I was raised a catholic but I am not practicing and I don't even know if I truly believe in god, or the power of prayer. I guess I believe in a higher being, whatever form that takes, which is why I find religious debates so interesting to read because I am somewhere in the middle.

But it just seems to me if someone has been through a hard time and has used their belief, their prayers to get them through that then people should be respectful of that, whether they believe it or not.
Some people may think its utterly stupid which is fair enough. Everyone has a view and since no one can ever truly be proved right then everyone is allowed to have their view.

In this case, it seemed it was a very horrible thing to suggest to a person who had used their beliefs to get them through a hard time.
It seemed the wrong time and place for the debate but that's just my opinion. It felt as though compassion and kindness would have been more in order, rather than the hurtful comment did the other baby die because you didn't pray enough

seeker Fri 17-Aug-12 08:54:00

But the op didn't say she used her beliefs to get her through a difficult time. She said her god directly intervened. There's a big difference there,

And fog no I don't hate the truth because I don't know the truth.
Did god save this baby and not the other? Was it all down to prayer?
Probably not. Although there is a whole other school of thought, putting positive thoughts into the universe(nothing to do with god btw) brings positive things back, so who knows.

But it's the lack of compassion that got to me.
I know it's great to have straight talking people giving their opinions and I love to read it. I wouldn't get into a religious debate with you because as I said, I don't know what I believe in, if anything.

But one of the things about straight talking is there are situations that affect people's lives, their hearts, their feelings.
And whilst you may very well be correct in what you are saying, the time and place you chose to do so seemed very unfeeling tbh. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way but sometimes, even though I know I am right about something, I know it's not the moment to force my "rightness" on someone having a hard time.

That's what I found upsetting. Not the fact you was saying god didn't save this baby.

seeker Fri 17-Aug-12 09:20:41

The op made a categorical statement. Nothing about her gaining support and comfort from her faith. She said that God moved a clock as a sign to her that her friend's baby would be OK. I really don't see an issue with challenging that.
There have been long supportive threads on here where everyone has joined in to support parents in desparate need. Those are very different from this thread.

canistartagainplease Fri 17-Aug-12 09:32:40

Zippity- I'm touched by your good grace and concern for your friend, youve got me thinking about her as well and wanting the best outcome. I think prayer is all about directed empathy, and theres only good in that.

headinhands Fri 17-Aug-12 09:39:05

The op is not THE mum. The op is not posting in bereavement. No one has been unkind or spiteful.

Having beliefs challenged is uncomfortable yes. I was there once. For a long time I was stuck in limbo and knew I couldn't really talk to anyone because everyone has their own agenda. I had to poke about for myself. It was a long and difficult process but reading boards and threads like these really helped because they aired opinions and beliefs in a way you can't do around the vending machine at work or at toddler group with your friends.

neontetra Fri 17-Aug-12 10:19:06

Fair point headinhands - so it isn't just Christians who allegedly "hate truth", but all people who believe in any god at all. A lot of this hatred of truth about, isn't there?
What I've never understood is why some people with atheist beliefs seem to get so irritated and angry with people who follow a religion - why does it matter to you so much? Fair enough if they are perpetrating some great evil in the name of that faith, but if they are just going around believing something you don't, what is the problem? I'm not saying atheists shouldn't feel free to state their disagreement with religious people, but there often seems to be a lot of rage behind the statement. I don't get that.

headinhands Fri 17-Aug-12 10:28:04

Have you not noticed the veiled and unveiled insults being levied at those without beliefs here! Spiteful, unkind and so on.

Personally I haunt these boards because I enjoy debating with people of faith. I find it fascinating. I also hate housework grin

I didn't call anyone spiteful or unkind because they do not believe in god.
I called the comment about the other baby dying spiteful and unkind in the context it was posted

seeker Fri 17-Aug-12 11:20:24

Rage? Please will someone show me rage on this thread?

seeker Fri 17-Aug-12 11:33:18

Oh and while you're about it, could you tell me when and where it's ok to
question Christians on their beliefs and expectation of privileged treatment without being called spiteful, a Christian basher, or as on one memorable occasion, a c**t?

I think it's always ok to debate. I don't think anyone should be called a c**t.
I dont think bringing the friends dead baby into it in such a manner, on a thread where the op is obviously very close to the family was very nice. But that would be the same no matter what subject was being debated.

But it's all opinion, isn't it?
I don't feel comfortable with it, not for religious reasons, just because I think it's not necessary to hurt someone by being so flippant about a subject that is emotional for the op.

technodad Fri 17-Aug-12 13:18:47

neontetra said What I've never understood is why some people with atheist beliefs seem to get so irritated and angry with people who follow a religion - why does it matter to you so much?

One reason might be that religion is not based upon provable facts, but religious communities have unreasonable influence in many areas of life (schooling, state, etc). I am forced to put up with being surrounded by unfounded belief and the state trying to indoctrinate my children, it is not unreasonable to want to counter that with some facts and rationalism.

If we lived in a secular state and religion did not have this unbalanced influence, then I would be very happy indeed. I am very pro-choice when it comes to religion, but the state is not!

technodad Fri 17-Aug-12 13:19:36

P.S being atheist is not a "belief", it is a complete lack of belief.

headinhands Fri 17-Aug-12 13:23:19

These questions need to be asked. It was the op who mentioned the sad loss of her friends previous lo. How come it's flippant to ask about how god made the decision he did in the first instance but not flippant to assume one prayer got gods attention the second time.

These debates always go the same way. Pertinent questions get asked then it's a well worn path of at best, a healthy dose of esoterics or at worst the shutters come down and accusations of all nastiness get's inferred.

headinhands Fri 17-Aug-12 13:33:30

'people who live on logical principles alone are impossible to argue with'

Brilliant!grin

Well because the op mentioned a situation that she was in at the time, which was painful for her. So to be flippant about it is hurtful.

headinhands Fri 17-Aug-12 14:08:48

Should I set a reminder and ask her at a later date? How long to wait to make sure making alternative suggestions for what the op thinks is a miracle could not be construed as flippant. Are you really suggesting that anyone should be able to assert anything without anyone questioning the logic behind their assumption. No one has suggested what happened wasn't dreadful. No one has made light of such loss. We have made alternative suggestions for what the op believes is divine intervention. That does not detract from how pleased we are that op's friend and her new baby are doing well.

ginmakesitallok Fri 17-Aug-12 14:20:37

If god exists sometimes he answers prayers and sometimes he doesn't. Who knows why? Maybe the prayers weren't sincere enough? Maybe he's teaching someone a lesson? Maybe he's just being random and uncaring? any of these make him a bit of a c**t in my books and I think you should all leave the bastard

chipmonkey Fri 17-Aug-12 21:40:33

on the other hand, I have a sister with severe special needs. She is also impossible to argue with. It's a fine line....

chipmonkey Fri 17-Aug-12 21:44:07

And if you believe, then the first baby is with God and her mother will meet him/her again.

Since I lost my own child, most people on MN have been very kind about her death and the fact that I believe I will meet her again. Some of the kind people were believers and some were atheists.

Some, however were spectacularly nasty. They were ALL atheists.

seeker Fri 17-Aug-12 23:13:02

Chip monkey- I am very sorry about your loss- you must be heartbroken.

You have also made any discussion impossible- was that your intention?

TheFogHorn Fri 17-Aug-12 23:20:47

Sorry for being logical as I know it makes it almost impossible to deal with me...but....

Had this lady been the one to lose her baby then I think I would have buttoned my lip. However, this woman was talking about her friend. Also, her emphasis was on the current baby and not the one who died. I wanted to remind her that she needs to keep in mind the one who died when deciding whether prayer works or whether a god is responsible for how people die and when.

When people post controversial things on a public forum they have to anticipate opposition. You need to get used to the fact belief in god or even just prayer is controversial. For millenia, people who didn't like it were burnt at the stake. Before that, I suspect they were thrown into volcanoes. Now, of course, we are allowed to say what we want. The problem is, not many people feel able to say what they want to say due to the fear of ridicule, social ostracism and even physical violence. That makes talking on forums the only feasible option. That is not the fault of the 'spiteful' atheists.

Despite you not being keen on me speaking my mind, you seem to have back peddled and are now saying you're not sure if god exists or if prayer works. What this reveals is that I feel more comfortable speaking my mind than do you. You would prefer to bullshit rather than say it as it is. Your claim to want to shield the OP from my 'spitefulness' is a sham. The truth is, you want to shield yourself from the discussion because you find it too uncomfortable.

I don't want people reading online a one-sided version of a prayer experience along with raputurous applause from lots of people who, mostly, are just going along with it out of habit and fear of being true to themselves. That just spreads the supersticious mentality that keeps religions going.

Hopefully now more people are thinking hard about the conflict in prayer belief, which was my aim.

DioneTheDiabolist Fri 17-Aug-12 23:30:16

How has Chipmunk's comment make further discussion impossible?

FizzyLaces Fri 17-Aug-12 23:30:44

This thread is like every conversation I have with my family. Very glad the baby is well. x

seeker Fri 17-Aug-12 23:33:40

Dione- because to challenge the belief of someone in her position really would be spiteful.

DioneTheDiabolist Fri 17-Aug-12 23:41:07

It was. I remember the thread and it was so nasty that it lead to a Safe Haven thread being started and still some people took quite a mocking tone.sad

I was shocked that some atheists could be so inhumane in the face of someone sharing their thoughts and feelings at such a difficult time, just because they believed differently. A similar thing has happened on this thread. I'm not really sure why they did it, instead of simply beginning another thread debating beliefs.

seeker Fri 17-Aug-12 23:45:44

"A similar thing has happened on this thread"

No. It hasn't.

DioneTheDiabolist Fri 17-Aug-12 23:56:47

Yes it is. You want to discuss the fragility of Christian beliefs, then start a thread on it. It is at best tactless and at worst spiteful to do so on a thread started by someone who wanted to share her thoughts and feelings regarding a sick child.

seeker Sat 18-Aug-12 00:13:26

There is a huge difference between somebody dealing with the death of their own child and somebody saying they know
that god intervened to save a friend's child because they think a clock moved.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 18-Aug-12 00:21:45

There is a difference, yes. But without knowing about the relationship between the OP and her friend you cannot possibly ascertain the extent of that difference.

seeker Sat 18-Aug-12 00:28:52

No. But you have to make a judgement. Or Christians are completely unchallengeable. Which if course they wouldn't want. Would they?

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 18-Aug-12 00:36:00

Why do you have to make a judgement?
Why not just start another thread?confused

TheFogHorn Sat 18-Aug-12 00:39:00

Dione

The OP was not discussing her sense of loss at her friend's baby's death but at her delight at having been instrumental in the saving of her friend's baby. Am I right in saying the first baby died during gestation and quite some time ago? To suggest this friend is in a such a terrible state she's unable to handle any challenge to her supernatural beliefs is melodramatic.

Let's focus on the issue the OP wanted us to know.......her and god having a hand in the saving of a baby.

Will you now answer me this question? Did a lack of prayer have anything to do with the death of the unborn baby?

seeker Sat 18-Aug-12 00:39:16

Because I will get called spiteful, a Christian Basher or a c**t. As usual.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 18-Aug-12 00:47:08

Wow Seeker, I am shock. I was unaware that it was usual here to call anyone a cunt! How many times has it happened to you on this forum?

seeker Sat 18-Aug-12 00:51:44

Only once. It was enough. A bizarrely unchristian thing to do, I thought, nut it closed down the discussion pretty damn quick. As it was intended to do.

seeker Sat 18-Aug-12 00:54:18

And now, as you don't think the discussion should be stopped, please will you address foghorn's point?

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 18-Aug-12 00:59:40

Just a couple of things Seeker,
Firstly, it is not usual for you to be called a cunt here.
Secondly, why do you think that these things will happen in a thread started by you, but not one started by a poster talking about her feelings regarding a personal experience that is then hijacked?

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 18-Aug-12 01:04:15

Oh, I don't read any of Foghorn's posts.

seeker Sat 18-Aug-12 01:09:10

The op said that she knew God was present because her son said a clock moved. Are we supposed to leave that unchallenged?

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 18-Aug-12 01:13:03

Do you know that god wasn't?

seeker Sat 18-Aug-12 01:18:21

Well, he was a pretty bloody bizarre god if hewas!

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 18-Aug-12 01:22:29

In what way?

seeker Sat 18-Aug-12 01:27:33

One prayed for child dead. One prayed for child ok. Indication that child 2 would be ok a clock moving in a friend's house, does that sound normal to you?

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 18-Aug-12 01:31:47

What do you mean one prayed for child dead?confused

TheFogHorn Sat 18-Aug-12 01:53:13

One not prayed for child dead.

Quite obvious she made a simple mistake. Are you focusing on the little errors rather than facing the bigger picture?

Not reading my posts anymore? Not true. You're reading my posts and cringing.

seeker Sat 18-Aug-12 06:42:17

I'm assuming the op prayed for her friend's first child too?

technodad Sat 18-Aug-12 07:35:32

TheFogHorn,

Once again, it seems that no one has an answer to your (completely reasonable) question.

The problem is that religious people often complain that it is impossible to have a debate with people who "live on logical principles alone" (putting the rather amusing self admission that the religious perspective is clearly illogical, to one side for now). However the simple question of why does "god" act to make a good thing happen on day A, but not act to stop a bad thing happen on day B isn't even taking on a massively complex logical argument, it is a simple question which NEEDS to be answered.

When there is no obvious evidence for something being true, the claimant needs to be the one that justifies their position, it shouldn't be for everyone else to just accept their spurious claims without evidence.

This approach is not anything to do with being atheist, but is how our entire legal system works, so why do we turn our back on this approach because religious people don't like the line of questioning?

JodieHarsh Sat 18-Aug-12 07:45:59

I can't believe what has happened here shock

This is a topic which is (at least in part) about spirituality. Why would you turn up (with frankly astonishing speed - do some people have Faith-Dar or something? grin) on a thread where someone with faith is experiencing a moment of joy and pleasure, and immediately slap it down as hard as you can? Is it really that important to make sure everyone knows what you think about the faith?! Really? You can't let one occasion pass?

Imagine if someone posted on the conception thread 'hey! At last I'm pregnant!' and someone immediately posted 'Well you're an idiot for wanting babies'.

confused

Obviously there is immense value in robust debate and challenging views, but was this really the thread?

I will NEVER understand people's need to do this, whether they're Biblical fundamentalists or Islamists or atheists or whatever.

We can't all agree on matters of faith, and we never will, and I'm not sure that we need to.

But I'm sure we're able so spot when someone's being really quite unkind.

JodieHarsh Sat 18-Aug-12 08:06:23

Incidentally, this slightly (only slightly - I'm not saying anyone on this thread was this crass!) reminds me of a row I had in the pub recently - we were talking about composers, and arguing their various benefits, and in my drunken pretentious way I waved my beer above my head and declared the Beethoven late string quartets (or something) to be 'Positively divine! I mean just DIVINE!!"

Before I knew it my atheist pal, with whom I enjoy many a robust debate (and I do mean enjoy) spun round fast enough to bust his shoulder. "Divine? Oh divine is it? Eh? DIVINE? So GOD wrote them did he? Yeah? GOD wrote Beethoven's music? Is THAT what you're saying? So no-one can create decent art without you know, the Big Bearded Sky Fairy sticking his oar in? And here's me thinking you were EDUCATED Jodie. THOUGHTFUL. Looks like I was mistaken eh? EH?"

etc. etc. etc.

grin

Granted he was drunk. But, you know. Sometimes it's OK just to let things pass especially when religion was not actually being mentioned at the time and it was just a bloody word for Heaven's sake

technodad Sat 18-Aug-12 08:18:33

JodieHarsh,

I genuinely apologise if anyone thinks that I have been unkind (I like to think that I am a kind person), however whereas your drunk friend had a pop at you when religion was not actually being mentioned at the time, the title of this thread is "God was most definitely here this evening", which is a pretty bold statement (I know you said it only "slightly" reminded you of this event, but there is quite a difference here).

Everyone on this thread has made kind remarks about the OPs friends baby, but you have to understand that some people might find the content of the first post offensive in it's own right. The assertion that the act praying is what saved this child rather than the tireless efforts of scientists and medical experts over the years is a pretty crass one.

JodieHarsh Sat 18-Aug-12 08:25:29

It seems crass to you certainly. But you see, faith is intensely complex. If my Mum (who has a very strong faith) said what the OP said, what she would mean would be something like "Thank God the he guided the staff, that he gave them those skills, that we live in a time when we are privileged to have such wonderful medical intervention." Do you see what I mean? Not "It was God, and the staff had naff-all to do with it." That would indeed be crass!

(And I am absolutely sure you had no intention of being unkind. But there is something uniquely humiliating about opening yourself up sufficiently to have the courage to make a kind of faith-statement, and to have it seized upon. Some thing deserve an immediate kicking down - "God hates gays", that sort of filth - but not, I would have thought, just a gentle, genuine, heartfelt moment of faith and belief.)

However! I know we will not agree, and I don't mind that in the slightest, so in that case there's no need for me to hang around!

foghorn sorry, just to address your earlier point I have not back pedaled in any way.
I did not come on to this thread saying I believed that prayer had saved the baby. I said that some people have strong beliefs, and find prayer and their belief in god comforting and gain strength from it.

My point was never to challenge the beliefs of anyone. I was not agreeing or disagreeing with any point of view. I was pointing out that it seemed a very unkind statement to make, about the first baby dying because she didn't pray hard enough.

Irrelevant of any religion, I think when someone has experienced pain, and then gone on to receive good news, which they want to share, then it is pretty disgusting to come back with a statement like that.

I couldn't care less what you believe, I'm sure you are happy with your views. The op is also happy with hers.
You may feel the overwhelming need to put your point across, because you have a strong opinion. And yes, you have valid points. But your first statement seemed to be very crass.

It's not a case of disagreeing with what you are saying, it's just, for me, the way you said it was intended to hurt.

TheFogHorn Sat 18-Aug-12 08:39:38

Jodie.....your friend verbally abusing you in public when drunk was obviously due to pent up frustration at your faith. Atheists have a lot to put up with so don't get all hoity when one of them gets upset.

Blame God for not guiding the staff, for not giving them those skills, that we live in a time when we are privileged to have such wonderful medical intervention but that he intervened and prevented the first baby from being born alive.

Can you see that your statement proves the ludicrousness of having faith in god? You cannot have it both ways. If god helped save the second baby then he must have made the first baby die. If the OP helped save the second baby with prayer then she must also have let the first baby down by not praying enough.

technodad Sat 18-Aug-12 08:42:11

JodieMarsh

To be honest I think we do agree. When I first posted on this thread I was well aware that it might cause some (very minor) upset (because the OP was celebrating and the responses rained on (part of) her parade), but on balance, I think the view that god helped this child and not another does beg challenge, because it is totally spurious.

headinhands Sat 18-Aug-12 13:04:16

Just because something is intensely complex doesn't mean it is off limits for discussion. The statement op said was very clear and there was nothing complex about it.

Does everyone who has faith just agree carte blanche with everything that anyone else of faith believes. If I said the ghost of Elvis helped my daughter pass her exams on this board would everyone on this board who believes in a supernatural realm have to believe my claim and pat me on the back? Having previously been a church goer I know the fierce division between members of the church when it comes to what god has/hasn't done let alone different denominations or faiths so let's not make this an 'us and them' issue please because there are many people of faith who exercise critical analysis when presented with religious claims from those within their own faith.

And I am allowed to add my comments in this area as much as anyone so long as I post within the mn code. And likewise people are allowed to ignore my post. Or report if I have broken said rules.

Hope mum and baby are doing well op

chipmonkey Sat 18-Aug-12 15:59:14

How have I made any discussion impossible? In fact I can see that I haven't as the discussion has clearly gone on quite nicely.

It is not your job as an atheist to patronise those who have faith, question their intelligence ( FWIW and not that it should be relevant, I do have a much higher than average IQ) and "educate them" just as I don't believe either that it is the job of any person of faith to "educate the heathens".

The OP, I am sure, is secure in her faith. Just as others are secure in their belief that there is no God and no afterlife. I can't prove there is a God and you can't prove that there isn't.

Why anyone needed to come on to this thread and attempt to rain on the OPs parade in such a nasty way is beyond me. The thread title didn't ask for opinions on whether God was there, the OP believes he was and there's a new baby to celebrate.

I used to be an atheist. And when I was, I never felt the need to ridicule the people of my former church. What IS that about? Why such hatred and venom?

seeker Sat 18-Aug-12 16:01:23

Why do you call any disagreement venom?

headinhands Sat 18-Aug-12 16:12:57

And again the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If I said I could read your mind it would be for me to show that I can by, well, reading your mind. It wouldn't be for you to prove I can't. It wouldn't be your responsibility.

chipmonkey Sat 18-Aug-12 16:26:56

seeker not the disagreement but the manner in which some people disagree. The OP posted a lovely happy thread title and some people just had to come in and try to spoil her happiness.

headinhands why should the OP try to prove anything? The thread title was not an invitation for a discussion. She said she believed God was there in her house, not "God was here, I double dare-ya to prove me wrong"

No. Need.

headinhands Sat 18-Aug-12 16:57:26

'A lovely happy thread title'. No, the news that op's friend and baby are okay is lovely. Claiming god was in someone's house (and by definition not everywhere aka in other peoples houses) is a huge claim.

chipmonkey Sat 18-Aug-12 17:47:38

No, I imagine that the OP felt that God was everywhere, including in her house.

headinhands Sat 18-Aug-12 18:39:05

So the op just realised that god is omnipresent? How does that relate to this particular answered prayer? Personally I find the idea of an omnipresent, omnibenevolent god passively watching people suffer untenable especially when he is sometimes moved to act.

technodad Sun 19-Aug-12 10:31:26

madhairday said (on the first page of this thread):

techno: I would never, ever post a comment about the loss of a child being 'God's wish' , and don't know any Christians who would, either. In such a circumstance I have only seen messages of support and love, as it should be.

Sadly, this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality/1543408-I-have-absolute-proof-that-there-is-no-God shows that you are completely wrong with this statement!

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Sun 19-Aug-12 16:21:50

Zip, if you think God was there then I believe you and am happy for you about it. I wish the baby and his/her family and friends lots of love.

springydaffs Tue 21-Aug-12 19:16:45

Extremely poor taste to post that shit on this thread. If you want to discuss that stuff, start a thread.

What are you/s doing in religion/spirituality/etc anyway if you don't have any faith/belief? PIss off, go somewhere else, or start a thread saying 'you are all idiots and it is extremely frustrating having you idiots around' and see how it goes.

Delighted with you OP that your friend's baby is ok.

Hopeforever Tue 21-Aug-12 19:25:09

OP, wonderful news about your friend. Until you have experienced answered prayer and the presence of God so real, it's hard to believe.

Over the summer I have seen prayers not answered in the way I had hoped and I don't understand. But I've also known answered prayer.

The most memorable being a young lady who self harmed praying for peace and self acceptance. As she stood in the shower the scars on her wrist washed away to leave clean pure skin.

springydaffs Tue 21-Aug-12 19:39:27

YOH!! smile smile smile

technodad Tue 21-Aug-12 22:45:31

Why is it poor taste?

madhairday Sat 25-Aug-12 12:57:35

Hope were you at NW by any chance? I talked to the girl that happened to....it was awesome smile

Techno...have just waded through that thread, but have to admit to not reading every post - did someone really say such a thing? That it was 'God's wish?' If so hmm - but I stand by my contention that I do not know someone who would say something like this.

technodad Sat 25-Aug-12 21:55:12

It was said without any doubt at all. The worst post was by RunningUpThatHill on Sat 18-Aug-12 at 18:21:32. This was deleted at the posters request, but the impact of the post was reflected in the bereaved parent (expatinscotland) post, on Sat 18-Aug-12 at 18:32:37.

If you read the thread in detail, there are loads of comments where people say things which effectively mean "it is gods way". Just because they wrap it up in other words, it does not change the intent, or the meaning, and it does not make it any less crass or insensitive!

Hopeforever Sun 26-Aug-12 15:28:59

Yes I was at NWN&E. God did some amazing things that week smile

LynetteScavo Sun 26-Aug-12 15:36:09

Why do atheists even bother to post on such threads?

It seems such a miserable, bitter thing to do.

OP, if you felt God was with you this evening, then he surely was.

madhairday Sun 26-Aug-12 17:46:05

Hope are you a namechanger? <brain ticking> grin

Hopeforever Sun 26-Aug-12 17:54:42

Yes, I was Eaglewings but wanted a new start after my miscarriages. That week at NW I got to grieve for our lost babies ( not hard when surrounded by all those babies ) then managed to conceive at NW blush nobody in RL knows yet other than DH.

madhairday Sun 26-Aug-12 18:09:58

Hope smile smile Oh how wonderful. <I thought it must be you> <I'll be quiet>

So glad NW was helpful for you. I loved it too. If you're going next year let's meet up smile

technodad Sun 26-Aug-12 18:12:48

madhairday: so I take your silence as acceptance my point then? I presume you were just going to ignore the evidence you don't want to see again and hope it goes away?

LynetteScavo: Every atheist who has posted on this thread has congratulated the OP and wished mother and baby well, why is this miserable or bitter. Why can't someone be told if their conclusion is flawed or illogical without risk of people being needlessly upset?

If there was a post where someone stated that the world was flat and that the Earth was at the centre of the universe, then I presume you are saying that it would be offensive to point out that this isn't true?

LynetteScavo Sun 26-Aug-12 20:21:40

"LynetteScavo: Every atheist who has posted on this thread has congratulated the OP and wished mother and baby well,"

I've re-read the thread, and that simply isn't true.

The world being round or flat is not quite the same as one person's personal faith.

One is physical, and the other is spiritual. I might be able to prove to a poster that the earth is not flat, but I cannot prove they have no faith. Some atheists are very keen to point out faith is pointless as God doesn't exist.

Some people need to believe in God.

If someone else needed to believe the earth was flat, for what ever reason, and there was a "the earth is flat" topic then I wouldn't continually post they are wrong

I don't make a habit of going on to the forum of creationist and pointing out I disagree with them.

The OP posted that she was sure God had answered her prayer. She was having a lovely moment. Why stomp on it?

madhairday Sun 26-Aug-12 20:35:41

I didn't really feel the need, techno, as I had already pointed out that it is not my or my friends' practise.

There will always be those who say insensitive stuff, generally in a spirit of generosity, misguided, but still, and always those who will spout rubbish. I'm for sure not denying that. I'm not one to run away and hide grin

technodad Sun 26-Aug-12 20:46:16

Claiming that prayer works is identical to stating that the world is flat, since both statements are scientifically proven to be wholly untrue!

Why shouldn't people go onto creationist forums and tell them they are wrong? - they are wrong. It is not a point of opinion, it is a point of incontestable fact. On the contrary, when creationists work so aggressively against proven science, we should all be pointing out what a bunch of unthinking bell-ends creationist are.

When religious schools stop teaching children religious opinion as fact (some of whom against their parent's wishes) and when religious groups stop their discrimination and unfair privilege within society (i.e. equality for all), then I will stop telling religious people that they are incorrect when they make factually incorrect claims.

(note: I do not go on to prayer threads or threads where people need support (unless they require secular support), and I was not the first non-believer to post on this thread).

LynetteScavo Sun 26-Aug-12 21:20:07

technodad, I see it's all about facts for you, not how a person maybe feeling.

Faith helps many people, even if some one somewhere has proven prayer doesn't work. Prayer helps many people, all over the world, of many different faiths. That is a fact.

You may think that people are just "talking to an imaginary friend" (I believe that's how atheists like to put it) but those with faith, can feel something special.

It is miserable, rude and disrespectful, IMO, to rubbish someones feelings like that, especially the OP of a thread in Philosophy/religion/spirituality.

Obviously you will disagree.

The "I won't stop until they do" attitude is hardly mature...I try to teach my children tolerance, and wouldn't be impressed if they took such a line.

technodad Sun 26-Aug-12 21:26:50

I never said I don't teach my children tolerance. Do all Christians teach their children the same?

Perhaps you need to read some more of my posts on MN before you form an opinion on what I stand for.

It is miserable, rude and disrespectful, IMO, to rubbish someones feelings like that, especially the OP of a thread in Philosophy/religion/spirituality.

So is this part of religious privilege - that you must have an imaginary friend (as you put it), to be allowed to post on this part of MN?

LynetteScavo Sun 26-Aug-12 21:52:49

I never said you didn't teach your children tolerance, either.

I did say I try to teach my children tolerance.

Part of the "religious privilege"? Is that how you see it? There are certainly areas of MN I wouldn't post on.

How far would you take this attitude? If it had been the OP's own baby who had died, would you point out there is no heaven? There is a line, and I think some people crossed it on this thread. The OP may not have obviously been looking for support, but I think she would have liked some.

Anyway, I'm sure you will totally disagree.

Goodnight!

Hopeforever Sun 26-Aug-12 22:11:21

Interesting research was done on prayer in hospitals. People were asked if they would like to be prayed for. Some agreed, some didnot. When compared with the same number of people not prayed for, the results of how much pain was encountered post op, those in the prayed for group faired much better.

technodad Sun 26-Aug-12 22:14:31

LynetteScavo,

No, I wouldn't post if the OP's baby had died (and I never have and never will). However, as I was discussing above with madhairday, there is another thread where an atheist mother, who's baby had died, was told (by a Christian) "I now believe that children are taken in order to help those that love that child to develop spiritually."

So before you start judging my actions (especially actions which I have not made), please consider that there is a massive difference between respectful debate, and crass insensitivity.

technodad Sun 26-Aug-12 22:32:05

hopeforever,

This thread has nothing to do with the psychological benefits to the person praying. Clearly some individuals get benefit from this, much like meditation.

The ability to control the world with ones mind is proven as garbage.

mrscrocoduck Tue 18-Sep-12 13:51:38

He can't have been, he was with me.

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