Mumsnet Talk

If you found the first chapter in Revelations hard to handle, relax a little bit: this one is easier to get your head around. Chapter 2 has still got plenty of literary fireworks - we have Jesus "walking in the middle of the seven golden candlesticks" which means the seven churches. There's a lovely repeated line, which in the KJ version reads "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches." That is obviously meant to remind us of similar things spoken by Jesus in the Gospels, and it's a reminder that this text is meant to be authoritative: it isn't just some bloke's drunken ramblings down the pub, it's the record of a vision of Jesus Christ and the idea is that we take its words as seriously as those spoken by the living Jesus when walking around with his mates disciples in Judea.

Whether we choose to do that or not, it's fairly clear that Jesus of Revelations is a bit hot under the collar. He is talking to the churches, the Christian churches that have been founded since his death, and he's not that pleased with any of them. The Church of Ephesus gets a "could do better" report. Yes, you've suffered and been patient and worked hard for me, but you've "left your first love" (got distracted). You better repent darn quickly or "I will come unto thee quickly and will remove thy candlestick," whatever that means (I am tempted to make a lewd pun about removing body parts but more realistically it is likely that the writer means "your church is gonna be mincemeat, mate," rather than Jesus actually threatening to remove anybody's you-know-what).

Smyrna church fares no better. There's some of you who are in the synagogue of Satan, he notes darkly, which means you are pretending to be real Jews (confusingly, it seems like Jews here means Christians) when you?re not. Oh, and it sounds like you're being a bit hypocritical about your money matters too. Now, this bit always makes me wince because of course some Christians use this bit of text to get the upper hand in their own churches....there's nothing like snarling "you are the synagogue of Satan" to liven up a PCC meeting. The same theme continues as the focus moves to the poor church in Pergamos. Jesus thanks them for having martyred themselves, held fast to the faith under persecution, but notes disapprovingly the existence of idol-worshippers and heretics amongst them. (No one today is quite sure what the Nicolaitan doctrine is, but it seems quite clear that it was BAD AND WRONG. The first-century Fruit Shoot, perhaps). So low marks for Pergamos too. And then, to round it all off, we have the Thyatrian church, who seem full of good things - charity, and service, and faith - but who, oops, seem to have a nasty woman prophetess leading people astray. She probably wasn't really called Jezebel, Jezebel being that Old Testament queen who ended up being eaten by dogs in the street, but it's a good term of abuse, a bit like calling a politician "Hitler" or a Mumsnetter "Netmums" today. Oh, and there are blood-curdling threats against her and her children (probably not her real children, probably those who follow her teachings) as well.

To be honest, this bit of the Bible scares me witless. If Jesus was so condemnatory of these early churches, what about mine? Jeepers, these people were dying for you, I want to say to Our Lord, couldn't you be, well, a little bit more understanding? But before we run away and bury our heads under the blankets it's useful to remember that the writer of Revelations is doing exactly what Paul does in his Epistles, mingling praise with blame: Paul doesn't let his churches sit on their laurels and nor does "Revelations." Moreover,this passage is a useful reality check whenever we find ourselves being smug Christians. Who is in a good church, after all? Pretty much no one, according to this text. There are good and bad in every congregation, those who deeply venerate Christ with those who pervert and distort His message for secular, worldly or egocentric ends. Think about the churches you know. Have you known one that did not contain bickering, rivalry, cliques, selfish behaviour? This passage is a wake-up call to us all to remember that Christianity is not a call to cosy churchliness but to a real walk of faith in an uncomfortable world. It is a reminder to us all that the work of the churches must not be confused with the work of Christ.

Still, it's not all bad news. "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." A new name...hidden manna. A secret that no man knows. This to me is about the inner walk of faith, the secret life of every human soul, the inner bread of love hope faith and prayer that the worshipper receives who truly, deeply, honourably and honestly strives to follow Christ.
We cannot make our churches perfect. Nothing is going to meet Jesus' high standards. We are all sinners, and we remain sinners, members of a sinful church. This passage is a searing reminder of that.

It feels quite appropriate to discuss this text this week, when the Pope has criticised condom use in Africa. It's a salutory reminder of how wrong the churches can sometimes be. So we should never take the church's teachings for granted, or at face value, or be too trusting of our leaders. We should think, and pray, and reason, and remember that no church is fully safe from sin.

We can, however, collectively and singly, seek our "new name," our inner resurrection, our promise of new life with Christ.

Hello justabout, I was thinking about you yesterday and hoping you were still "about" to pardon a really lame pun.

I once made the "error" of reading Revelations when I was about 12 and it scared me witless. I am posting to bookmark this thread, I will have a stab at it in next day or so.

LOL at "about" I have been away, got back and dreadful family week so yes, I am about but fairly groggy!

Yeah, I know what you mean about Revelations, it is definitely one to follow with a stiff drink...

(wanders past hopefully, wondering if anyone is around)

(Meanders in, can't think of anything meaningful to say, blushes slightly and wander off again). I'll try to read the passage at lunchtime and see if I can think of any comments

(saunters along the corridor with AMIS, admires the view from the window)

Reading this, you can kind of understand the (catholic) Church's fervent desire not to let people read the Bible themselves in their own tongue in the 16th century.

The Church wanted everyone to think it was their way or the highway, and here we have Jesus telling the churches that actually, they aren't all that.

Absolutely, georgimama, it is a very surprising text. Doing this Bible Study has been a real revelation to me (sorry about the pun) because I had always found Revelations very hard going, felt that the only way to interpret it was in a hardline fundie way, which really isn't me at all. Now I look at it properly it is a lot more complex and profound than I gave it credit for. Should teach me not to ignore whole books of the Bible because I don't like them! It is all so ironic, I was so happy when Kay said she would do the reflections because I thought, Phew, I don't have to engage properly with this text. Now I am very glad that I have.

(Wanders back in after a rather tasty sandwich)...

It's interesting isn't it, he's not exactly condemning the churches, he has good things to say about all of them, but there's a lot of stuff they're all doing which he disapproves of, isn't there! It does make you wonder what he'd think of most modern churches - not much I suspect. We're all a bit too keen to be a "club" with rules and a very keen sense of who is part of the club and who isn't...

BTW I think the bit about the "synagogue of Satan" maybe isn't meant to be the church itself, but another group outside the church who are slandering them. NRSV has "I know the slander on the part of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." which I think means that the "supposed Jews" are slandering the church from the outside.

Yes you may be right, AMIS, I hadn't thought of it that way. I wish I hadn't used the word "condemn," actually, it's a bit too strong - he criticises.

Damn, and I like the idea of standing in a pulpit and declaiming "you are the synagogue of Satan" so much!

I find it a bit worrying though - it's not exactly comforting stuff is it?

I think it is a warning not to be complacent, and to assume that you are pleasing God with your actions (like "whited sepulcres" - I love that phrase) - humility is the only real way to approach the kingdom of heaven.

Yeah, absolutely georgimama, it is very much a kick up the ass not to be self-important about your faith.

Have been away visiting sick dad in Intensive Care (much better now, false alarm, back on the ward) for a few days, and whilst I was there I was thinking how your ideological preference shapes the way you read text. e.g. I read this an instinctively see it as an attack on churches becoming too complacent, but I read some Bible study notes that basically suggested it was about individual believers NOT listening to church authority enough. So the exact opposite of what I say. Ho hum, I suppose the only way we'll find out hte truth is when we meet God face to face...and by then I kind of hope I have more important things to discuss....

glad to hear your Dad is a bit better Justabout

I've always struggled with Revelations & Ch2 is no exception... I've read this chapter half a dozen times now & I'm not sure I've much to add to the debate - BUT it's good for me to keep trying, so thank you

I think what I take from it is that however "well" you think you are doing and however "good" the church is, don't ever get complacent, some of what you are doing is probably okay, but you can do better - big dose of humility required.

I take it as aimed at both the individual and the church organisation as a whole.

I'm also with AMIS, not sure God would think much to most of our clubs these days...

that last bit should have been

...to most of our clubs churches these days...

serves me right for trying to be clever

Don't worry BB I understood completely what you meant! For me the most beautiful section of this chapter is the bit about the new name, we did a lovely meditaiton on it when I was at college....

I was really scared of Revelation Chapter 1 but I actually enjoyed reading chapter 2 - not pretending I understand it but I got more out of it. At our RL Lent Bible Study we were talking about being so busy being good Christians, serving and helping and being busy for the Church we forget to spend time with God, getting to know Him and speaking to Him in prayer. That's what I get from this chapter, more of an individual message not to be so caught up with the Church & to focus more on Christ.

Thank you Justabout for continuing to lead us - I have got an amazing amount from doing this

webstermum - thank you.

Yes, that makes sense. Spending time with God, as opposed to His (many and well-meaning) helpers (oh no, now I've made Him sound like Santa Claus with the Elves....

Sorry for not getting to this, my crapness is very evident, and I actually think I'm both painfully challenged and tremendously comforted by this passage.

Challenged because I certainly have let my first love be subsumed by all sorts of other 'religion' in the bad sense, and comforted because remembering my first love is all that is needful, and I don't actually need all the religious trappings.

What has happened to the Lent Bible Study - have we given up??