Calling Catholics ... both practising and disillusioned ....

[Countingthegreyhairs]

If you are Catholic, may I ask if you sometimes feel disillusioned with the church, and whether or not you have doubts, and if so, how and why do you keep going?

For example:

• do you think it's important to attend church regularly?
  
• can you rationalise or 'block out' the bits you disagree because of the good of the whole?
  
• do you hesitate when you say "I believe in one, true Catholic and apostolic church"?
  
• have you reassessed your beliefs and if so, what conclusions have you reached?
  
  I was born and raised Catholic and so is my dh and my education was traditional and rather literal (to put it mildly!). We want dd to be raised as Catholic but this has led me to reassess and question many of my beliefs. I'm not just talking about the issue of contraception here, it's things such as the male church hierarchy, the lack of understanding about family life (for an organisation that purports to support this - the understanding can be woefully lacking) the lack of relevance and dynamism (happy clappy is not my thing either but surely there's a happy medium) ... Also, I can no longer truly believe that the Catholic church is necessarily "more truthful" than other established religions.
  
  On the one hand I agree with the view that Pope's are not out there to win popularity contests or pander to popular beliefs. They are setting a standard which few of us can live up to but it's important to set a bench-mark to which we can all strive. On the other hand, numbers are dwindling and they don't see to care why so many members of the church feel disillusioned and confused.
  
  There are so many good things about the Catholic church that are never spoken about, for example, I like it's classlessness - the fact that going to mass in W. Europe is probably the one remaining place where all different classes can meet under one roof. I personally like the emphasis on the importance of individual human life, the vulnerable, the young, the elderly, disabled, ill, marginalised etc etc. The papal encyclicals on truth and social justice are probably some of the finest, most intelligent and humane documents on the subject ever written.
  
  But then all of those higher values can so easily be undermined by one's weekly experience at church. I'm probably not expressing myself very well - and I realise that questions about personal beliefs are very, well, ... personal .... but I would love to know other people's views and how do you rationalise the good and the bad?

[StIncognita]

How to rationalize the good and bad in church? Same as I rationalize it in me. I'm a jumble of good intentions and almighty cock-ups, and church is the same.

I suppose it's about working out what your bottom line is. Kerfuffles about contraception sort of skitter on the surface, really. What's the bottom line for you?

I find it helps to think, not in terms of 'truth', but in terms of reality. Do I really believe there is reality in the church, despite the foibles and failings of it's members, and yes, some of its teachings?

Personally, I do. I think there is reality there. Doesn't mean I don't get disillusioned, though.

I mean, I could go out and fashion a belief to suit me, to scratch all my itches, and not have any of the stuff that makes me want to tear my hair out. But what's the point of that? What's real is real. What's not might feel better sometimes, but if it's not real, it's just play.

Hope some of that helps.

[Countingthegreyhairs]

Thanks StIncognita for your VERY eloquent post (I think you should be up for beatification soon ...!)

It does help and your first two sentences, in particular, have made me think. I can be too idealistic. On the other hand I get very disillusioned and frustrated that nothing seems to be changing. I'm frustrated on behalf of dd too. What sort of church will there be when she grows up? If any?

I guess it does, as you say, come down to one's bottom line ....

[StIncognita]

Oh yeah, I'm lined up to be a Blessed in around 500 yrs time

The kids thing drives me nuts, too. If it's just me, that's one thing. It's the responsibility of my children that makes these questions so difficult. I suppose you just have to teach them the best way you know how, and let them know that it's ok to have doubt and questions. It's called faith, after all, not know

[cornsilk]

-I don't think it's vital to attend church regularly.
-I do disagree with bits of the pope's teachings.
-I don't know what apostolic means.

[Isababel]

I don't know if this may help but...

My mother had a very strict catholic upbringing although she hated the church with a passion after she made feel rejected for being a child of divorced parents.

My father was sent to a seminar being 12, left it at 13 and hated church with a passion (and good reasons) for the subsequent 35 years.

When we were children we never attended church as a family, they baptised us, we had our fist comunions and that was it. (With the exceptions of weddings and funerals)

Being around 16 I was invited to participate in a youth group with a catholic diocese, the experience was great and very helpful, I found a set of friends that make me feel loved and accepted and got the oportunity to help others, and learn a lot about other people's problems. It was a fantastic time, I had to fight my parents fear of indoctrination (they refused to let me go but at the end I managed to attend).

This group served its purpose but a few years later I decided to stop going mostly because I had not enough time, and probably because by then I had evolved into a different person. I have the same doubts (or lack of beliefs) that you express on your OP. I'm not even sure if I am still a catholic in a strict sense but I still consider myself a very spiritual person but not a religious one.

So... what I plan to do with DS is to let him be as near or as far away of the church as he wishes. I plan to introduce it to him but without making an issue of it. I want him to have the option to get some comfort from faith if he so do wishes. And if at the end of the day he decides not to take it, it would be his decision, although... I want him to have the option to make an informed decision by knowing what he wants to believe. Rather than deciding based on pure ignorance.

Not sure if that makes sense at all, but in a nutshell, I will put the bases and he may decide whether he wants to build up on that or not.

[Countingthegreyhairs]

Thanks for your posts StInCog, Cornsilk (now I think about it, I'm not sure I know what apostolic means either) and Isababel.

With regard to children, at least we have the advantage over our parents/grandparents generation that we can be less dogmatic about our teaching (in my day it was considered blasphemous if we questioned doctrine too closely). Was it Mother Theresa who was reported to have had doubts recently??.

I definitely think a child has to experience a religion and be involved in it in order to accept or reject it later, so in effect I think I will be doing the same as you Isababel. It's very difficult as a parent to steer a moderate path through belief and doubt however.

For example, although it suffers from a good deal of misrepresentation in the press, it still worries me that after all this time the church still appears to be 'hung up' about certain issues such as personal sexual morality when there are so many more urgent and (in my view) important needs that should be addressed. With the splitting up of families and the dissatisfaction caused by consumerist values, I think people in the UK and Western Europe are crying out for spiritual answers. And the church doesn't seem to be adapting to modern life or addressing these needs. Who am I to say, and I know that the Church's focus nowadays is understandably on the developing world but there does definitely seem to be something lacking .... It's so frustrating!! Rant over for now!!

[PrincessButtercup]

I too asked myself all of the questions in your OP when deciding to bring up my dcs as catholics. I was raised a Catholic and have generally stuck with it (in spirit if not always in practice) but did not want to blindly lead my kids into the Catholic church when I myself had so many long time unanswered questions about Catholicism. I spoke to our local priest who suggested that I sign up for the RCIA course (the preparation course for converts to catholicism). I would definitely recommend this if it is available to you (and if you have the time to commit to it).

The RCIA course was a very helpful refresher course with respect to much of the history, rites and traditions of the catholic church and, more importantly for me, the course also included several in-depth discussion sessions on social issues (contraception, AIDS, homosexuality, women in the church etc.). I came away with a better understanding of the reasoning behind the teachings of the church and learned that whilst I agree with and respect the basis of most of the teachings of the Catholic church, I acknowledge that I will not always be able and will not always want to attain such standards and, furthermore, I strongly believe that to attempt to impose such standards in certain situatiuons is dangerous and even wrong. Talking these issues through with our very fair and surprisingly open minded parish priest has also helped me to become comfortable in the knowledge that just because I do not agree with the teachings of the church at every level, I am no less a Catholic.

Perhaps my biggest gain from the RCIA sessions was some precious time out of my manic, stress-filled week to spend in thought and discussion with reassuringly like-minded, nice, normal, people-like-me on spiritual matters and their relevance to me and my family.

The only other place I really get time to do this is at mass (in answer to your question, I feel it is important to me to go regularly in order to keep in touch with my spiritual self (far too easily lost sight of some weeks), but I most certainly don't go every week without fail). It is this spirituality that I most want to pass on to my children. I have learned to channel mine through the catholic church - is this the most true or the best? I don't know, but it is what I know and I know that it is fundamentally good (you are so right about the beauty of the church in its classlessness and emphasis on the importance of human life)- and so I pass it on to them in the way that I know best. I definitely feel more comfortable and justified in doing so having revisited my own thoughts on my beliefs.

It's not easy and you're right, so personal. Happy ruminating!

P.s. there is a book called "Why I Am Still a Catholic" which includes essays on that topic by a range of various modern day "personalities", some lighthearted and entertaining, others by far less lightweight. I found that these personal accounts helped to better articulate some of the questions floating around my head and even to formulate some answers.

[Tommy]

think all these posts are eloquent - I think I should print this thread off and use it when people ask me why I go to church.

I am sure that a great deal of what people feel about "the Church" depends on their local community. Countingthegreyghairs - you said that all the higher values an be undermined by one's weekly experience at church but I think that is the best part of being a Catholic! My parish community is extremely important but we are lucky to have 2 great priests and a really active and supportive parish. All of my close friends are people I have met through church.

2 things - in the Creed, we say "one holy, catholic and apostolic church" (catholic with small "c" means universal and not Roman Catholic - which might help!) and "apostolic" means handed down form the apostles

[Countingthegreyhairs]

Thank you Tommy and Princess Buttercup. I'm sorry for the delay in response, I couldn't get to the screen yesterday. It's very, very heartening to know that both of you have positive experiences in your parishes.

I'll certainly look in to the RCIA course Princess Buttercup, it sounds excellent. (I live abroad so it may be in a different form here.) It's such a good idea that it is available to those of us born Catholic too! That's actually one of the points I was trying to make; that many of us are crying out for some intelligent, reasoned, spiritual debate to counteract the strong arguments from newspapers, television, and popular culture that one is bombarded with every day.

I have only one or two friends who are Catholic and I often find myself floundering at dinner parties or other social events, when I am asked to "defend" the church's activities in one way or another. (Richard Dawkins name comes up a lot!) so I too shall be printing out this thread and using it!

Thanks but I already have the book "Why I am still a Catholic" which I do dip in to from time to time. Also find Basil Hume's writings very enlightening and more recently Rowan Williams (when I can understand it!!)

Thank you for your note about the Creed Tommy. Noted and much appreciated!

[PinkMartini]

Thanks for starting this thread. I came on here to have a look and thought I'd contribute here rather than start my own.

I am fascinated by the RCIA course and am going to go adn look it up.

I was brought up a catholic and my mum still goes to mass every week though she always goes to the sat eve 6.30 and nips in and out as though it is a chore. I myself prefer a longer mass with hymns when I go - which these days is basically christmas, easter, weddings and funerals.

Once I went to university, I lapsed rather in my mass-going, and for the last 12 years ( is it really that long? ) have had other things to do on my Sunday mornings.

We married in a catholic church though my DH was brought up by v liberal parents who didn't bring him up in any faith at all (we had a dispensation for disparity of cult). I am now pg with my first baby and thinking about returning to church. We certainly want to have him/her christened and we're moving house and I was looking at churches when we found the area.

When we move we won't be able to transfer on the parish register as I don't really have a parish here and I'm worried it will seem like we're trying to get on the "school list" (and yes, I'd like my child to have a catholic education too) but this isn't my sole reason.

Just wondering how best to "return" to the church without looking/feeling hypocritical.
Any ideas?
(Apologies if this is hijacking in any way, if so I'll go and start my own thread.)

Off now to look up RCIA (and even try and guess what the IA stands for!!)
PM xx

[Tortington]

do you think it's important to attend church regularly? - yeah but i dont self flagulate if i have a hangover - its my way of saying "thank you

although my caveat is that times have been shit recently and i didn't want tosay thank you

• can you rationalise or 'block out' the bits you disagree because of the good of the whole?
  
  catholacism is a way of expressing my belief in god and jesus - other peole do it other ways - just the tradition in which i was brought up - therefore i feel true to it. So this is more about FAITH for me than teh catholic part of it - so no the pope is a load of shit, the riches the church has is disgusting and some of the churches practices are outdated.
  
  jesus said something like - where there are two of you gathered in my name i will be there - we dont need fancy buildings indeed i think he said something about that too.
  
  not big on the bible readings i think the bible is the religeos way of telling morals through a story
  
  a bit like american tv programmes do on hallmark. i ont think every word is literal but its a nice general guide about being nice to other people.
  
  
• do you hesitate when you say "I believe in one, true Catholic and apostolic church"?
  
• have you reassessed your beliefs and if so, what conclusions have you reached?
  
  i do
  
  catholic means - universal. apastolic - like the apolstles following in jesus.
  
  ergo christian - think the proddies say it too y'know.

[StIncognita]

PM, I'd just turn up quietly a few times - maybe on your own at first. I did that for a while, and brought everyone else along eventually. But I'm a wimpy shy sort. You might want to introduce yourself to the priest afterwards, maybe, or if they have coffee, go in, and hope that someone will chat to you.

Or alternatively just go and accost any woman who looks vaguely nunnish and introduce yourself. I did actually do that eventually, which wasn't very wimpy shy of me. Ho Hum.

[mosschops30]

I was bought up cofe but converted to catholicism last year after many trips to the Monastery at Worth Abbey.
I have just come back from another retreat there and can only say that if the whole catholic church adopted their attitude then it would do a lot better.

I struggle with a lot of it, issues on abortion, gay relationships etc. But I have learned to rely on my concsience and know that when I finally get upstairs I will know that I based all my decisions from my heart and what I truly believed in and god will know that.

We are not meant to be perfect, we are meant to fail. Its with help we can pick ourselves up, dust ourselves down and carry on.

I'm not sure if any of this helps. If its any consolation I find it very difficult to attend Mass every sunday but know if I lived closer to Worth I would go because its a more personal thing, its made to be more human, connect more with the parish, and they teach very well

[elfsmum]

HI

I was brought up in a catholic family, however I wasn't baptised as a baby (long story) so decided for myself at 19 to go to the RCIA and was baptised, received Holy communion and was confirmed all at the Easter vigil.

but in answer to your questions:

do you think it's important to attend church regularly?

No - for my faith God is everywhere and no matter where I pray he will hear me

can you rationalise or 'block out' the bits you disagree because of the good of the whole?

yes, I believe that the Bible was written by educated men of the time, and many parts written hundreds of years after Jesus' time on earth, and very much like folklore have become embellished with time. However I believe that fundamentally the teachings are to teach you to be a good person and live a good life.

I certainly question Genesis, the one thing that only happens in a female body is the creation of life but according to the bible we're condemned to pain, to bleed etc - if ever a man wrote something it's that - my belief is we have been given the greatest gift in being able to carry life, but a man watching what we go through would see it a purgatory.

so I find the bible to be very chauvanistic, and I choose to ignore those bits.

do you hesitate when you say "I believe in one, true Catholic and apostolic church"?

No, but mainly because I don't think about it, I believe that there is only one God, but with many different paths to reach him, the one I've chosen is Catholicism.

I've chosen to raise my children as catholic, and they go to catholic school, DH however doesn't believe in Catholicism, he believes there's a God but not in organised religion.

I want my children to grow up to be good people, and there is enough teaching in the faith to provide the basics for that, however they will get another view from DH, and whatever they choose when they are older will be up to them.

[daydreambeliever]

Reading your posts makes me wonder about my own stance on all this. My views are the usual mixed bag of hypocrisy and uncertainty....I do love the ritual of church going, especially at christmas. I want DD to go to a catholic school, to have some sort of spiritual anchor. I want her to go to a church that lots of our local community go to, so shes not isolated. But I do feel at odds with most of the catholic churches structure and rules. I have been thinking of starting going to quaker meetings, as in society of friends. DH and eveyone I know will think is very odd, but I have been reading about them and think it sounds like a more accepting, reflective, action based form of worship. But I would want DD to go to a 'proper' church for the social community side of things and because the imagery, rituals and processions are so lovely for kids. Is that disgraceful, to be picking one church for the adults, one for the kids, with nary a thought for the deeper stuff.
Well anyway it would be a turn up for the books if I ever go to either, because Id usually rather go for a good walk and spend the day with DH when it comes.
I hope this doesnt offend anyone. But I guess a lot of people, like me, take a rather pragmatic view of all this.

[Countingthegreyhairs]

Pink Martini - you are not hi-jacking in the least - I'm not really in a terribly strong position to advise (!) but I wouldn't worry about appearing hypocritical. You have your own spiritual reasons for returning. Just introduce yourself to the priest after mass one day and I'm sure you'll be made to feel welcome.

Custenstein - thanks for your robust response. You and others have made me see sense about the apostolic point and am definitely coming around to the same view- point when you say,
"catholacism is a way of expressing my belief in god and jesus - other peole do it other ways - just the tradition in which i was brought up - therefore i feel true to it."


Mosschops and Elfsmum - I struggle with the chauvinism and the gay issue too. One can only hope that things improve 20 years from now (if the Church still exists by then).

Daydreambeliever - can certainly identify with the mix of hypocrisy, uncertainty and pragmatism !! That's it exactly! And you can't really get around the pragmatic stuff. We all have busy lives and religion and culture are inextricably linked.

Having read yet more eloquent responses - thank you again - I feel better knowing that I'm not the only one experiencing the same doubts and I think I'm beginning to see a way forward. At the same time, I'm reading alot about other faiths such as Islam and Judaism and ruminating ...

Also, I think I am going to try and start going to mass regularly. Once a fortnight if I can't manage once a week.

The last time I went to confession (a year ago - first time in ages - the lovely Dominican priest (who managed to be erudite and human at the same time) told me to "chill out" and "cool it" so I guess I should take his advice about all of this!!

[SSSandy2]

I had to decide whether to register dd for religious instruction (1st communion) last week and faced this issue myself. It just didn't feel right and so I decided to postpone it for a year.

I'm a bit shaken still by the negative experiences we made at her Catholic school last year. I think that has to settle first and I need to get that whole business in perspective. Since she left that school, I've been sending her to Sunday School/Bible study with the Baptists and she is very happy there.

The RCIA sounds like a good step for you at the moment.

[karen999]

I was raised as a catholic and gave up going to church when I was 15/16. There were many reasos for doing so but the main reason was that the church were so against abortion yet would say that contraception was forbidden...to me this seemed illogical....of course this was reasoned by the fact that they believe the only reason to have sex is to pro-create. I did not think that they were up to date in their thinkings and therefore stopped going.....however I lost my nana and really felt that going back to church would help...it did in some ways but when I met the man that I wanted to marry I could not have a catholic mass as he was not 'baptised'......we had a ceremony with a blessing and I have never set foot in a catholic church again.......they are hypocritical, sexist and out of date - big time.

I believe in God and I pray regularly and I think that if you try and live your life as best you can then that is enough......the catholic church is an institution that I could well do without.....afterall they seem very concerned about world poverty......they should sell half the treasures in the Vatican and that may go a long way....

[scampadoodle]

As an extremely lapsed Catholic I was inspired by this thread to look up the RCIA & found this

It doesn't tell you much though!

[professorplum]

I am RCIA and recieved holy communion at 19. I think sometimes RCIA people have a different outlook than cradle Catholics.

I do think that it is important to attend church regularly. You can love God anywhere and you can Pray to God anywhere but in church you recieve holy communion (although I don't).It is the most important time of the week and it is right that we should be with each other. Also by turning out week after week then it sends a message that this is important. If everyone stopped going then the church wouldn't be there when we need it most.

With the bits I disagree with, I follow my own concience but I can't say if my opinion or the churchs opinion is right. Or we might both be wrong.

I have never hesitated at one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. I haven't given it much thought. I do believe in one church, I believe it is holy inasmuchas it is a devine institution, although its members may be far from holy, I believe it is catholic as it is universal and intended for everyone, not just a clique in a short time period and I believe that it is apostolic as it is the church that Jesus foundedas it has continued from the apostles. The bit I hesitate at is 'only say the word and I shall be healed' as I can't recieve communion.

I think this book is very good. It has chapters on common questions such as 'The Church-do we need it' 'The Papacy-help or obstacle'

[professorplum]

I think most churchs will have only just started their RCIA programme as they end at Easter.

[DarrellRivers]

Countiungthegreyhair i have enjoyed reading your thread
so many uestions i have as well I don't know where to turn , but found your thread a good start.
I ws born and brought up catholic by my devoted ctholic dad.I attended catholic secondry school which I enjoyed and did GCSE RE, which gve me good insight into Catholicism (we studied it properly)
My religion is very important part of me
I view being catholic as part of my culture & of me, but over the year s have been slipping away.
I alwys used to think i believed in the core catholic beliefs and sort of ignored the stuff on the periphery which irritated me.the contracep[tion, the homosexual issues etc.
My faith has recently been tested with the rigors of family life, i need to find the time to go to mass, and by the recent death of my brother.
I even wondered whether to become an anglican
however Stincognit, i like what you say about churches being like people, they are not perfect.
I shll revisit my religion and try to attend some masses& look into the RCIa
Thnks for the thought provoking thread

[Pan]

Severely lapsed Catholic here.

Raised Catholic, like DR went to "good Catholic (single sex) school.

Do I practice religion? No, I don't. Have def. been feeling spiritual-less recently.

Do find it incredibly hard to subscribe to a religion that has such terrible applications in the world. How does the RC church in anyway justify the approach to contraception in HIV-plagued African countries? 'Don't use condoms. Just die.'?? And it's crazy attitude to homosexuals. And abortion. And, and and...anything to do with sex.

Having a leaning more toward Budhism. A friend tries to live by Buddhist principles..often fails..but at least he is struggling in a context and with notions he can subscribe to.

[Pan]

and I can't call these issues "peripheral" in any way.

[MorticiasMother]

Faith is one thing.
Religion is entirely different.

I am a catholic but recently sent a letter of resignation to the Pope (asking for my contract that I made at baptism to be terminated) over the whole Amnesty fiasco.

I don't like the new Pope. I don't like the church's handling of scandals. I don't like the way they refuse to say sorry over things that have hurt others. I don't like the riches they store (remember Jesus in the temple overturning the stalls?).

BUT I do believe in the principles of the catholic church. So I do celebrate Mass and I do teach my children what it is to have faith. God didn't say that you had to follow any particular religion, he merely said that you had to follow his rules, obey his word. That is what we are doing. I don't mind telling the Church what I think of it either, some changes you can only make from within and I think if more people stood up and make their voices heard within the catholic church, then we could make changes.