Selling your soul to the devil

[Chloe55]

Right, this may seem like a strange question but I said I'd look into it for a friend and thought this was as good a place as any to ask.

Basically, said friend was seriously abused by his father as a young child. He prayed to God to take this monster away but to no avail. During a dark perios when he was 10 he sold his soul to the devil in return for his father to be taken away. Within a week his dad left. So, friend is kind of convinced that if there was such a thing as God and the devil then the devil has his soul and he would never be accepted into heaven. He is not sure if he believes though.

I asked my dh (catholic) what he thought and his opinion was that God owns our soul and it was therefore not my friend's to sell, so he would still go to heaven.

What are your beliefs and does somebody know if there is an actual answer in the bible?

[spiritualfriend]

This is a hard one for your friend chloe as I guess ultimately it depends on what he believes in.

Some Satanists will say that selling your soul includes a complicated ritual that cannot be performed by your average joe.Others will say that it is not neccessary and that christianity invented this selling of soul in order to prevent straying from the religion.

If your friend is not religious than what would it matter? Has this event convinced him to believe in god and the devil?

Maybe he should try to find the light and turn the situation around. Maybe God, seeing how upset and desperate he was that he would feel the need to sell his soul at just 10 years old made his father go away so that he could follow the path he was meant to lead.

[MaryBS]

Whether or not it is possible to sell your soul to the devil, I don't believe you could do it when you are as young as 10. Even if there were a definitive answer in the bible, it would not apply to children.

Abuse is a serious issue, and can have damaging effects on the mind of a child. For a child MAY believe he has brought this evil on him/herself, that he/she (the child) is evil/bad, why else would it be happening? And then for a child to believe he can call on the devil who would buy his soul - that is so sad, so awful.

Has your friend talked this through with a professional?

Everything I know about God makes me know he would never hold a child to such a promise "let the little children come to me".

I will pray for your friend.

[Chloe55]

Thanks for your opinions. I don't know the full ins and outs of the abuse, just that it drove him to attempted suicide at this young age so presumably the damage caused was immence. I have neevr asked if he seeked professional help, he doesn't like to talk about it much but we got onto a religious subject and this popped up.

He is not particularly religious, he is unsure of his beliefs, although he acts like it doesn't bother him that he 'sold his soul' (because of his weak belief in God) I know it does. He asked me to ask my MIL who is a eucharistic (sp?) minister but I haven't seem her for a few weeks and it's not the type of question I want to ring up and ask!

Isn't age 7 and under classed as innocent? Therefore any age older than this it would seem have a mind of their own and cannot be protected under this ruling.

He also thinks that when he attempted suicide it was a test from Satan to see if he had him under his power. He laughs and jokes when he tells me this but it must affect him to have thought these ideas in the first place.

My belief is that he was too young to 'sell his soul' if it was at all possible in the first place. Also, that he was in no frame of mind to make any rational decision and that if there was a God then God would surely forgive this act and he must be more powerful than Satan.

[MaryBS]

7 is deemed to be the age that children know right from wrong. Such as don't steal, don't tell lies, that sort of thing. My DD is 7yo, and she undertands simple concepts like that, but there is absolutely no way she could understand the concept of selling your soul, and I would use the same reasoning in the case of a 10yo. Think how many things we wouldn't allow a 10yo to do - smoke, vote, get married, drink (apart from the odd sip perhaps!).

Children ARE susceptible to ideas put in their head, which is why some people believe religion shouldn't be taught in schools (although, obviously, I believe I'm teaching my children the right things!). Its going to be really hard to persuade him that what he believed then is not true.

Whether or not its possible that Satan drove him to attempt suicide, its a sad reflection of what has happened to him, that this is what he believes. There are a lot of stories in the New Testament that give us a greater understanding (as far as we can understand) of what God is like - a God of forgiveness and compassion. However I believe his needs are more urgent than this and can't be solved just by telling him to read a bible.

Your mother may be able to offer more advice - FWIW I was a Eucharistic Minister for 4 years (in the RC church), and am now training to be a Licensed Lay Minister in the C of E (not that I'm claiming to be any expert!). I can think of not so extreme ideas that I had in my head, based on what I believed growing up, which affect me even today, so I can see how his worries are so deep-rooted.

Its good that you're there for him and want to help him. If he does open up more, I would encourage him to seek counselling. There are Christian counsellors he could see, so he could perhaps tackle both issues at once - the abuse, and the selling of his soul. Was he a Catholic? He might set great store in talking to a RC priest about it.

You can ask for prayers for him on the Christian prayer thread, or I can, if you want. Others may be able to help better than me.

[colditz]

Any God I would give any thought to would not deny such a child his right to heaven, on the basis of the action he was forced into at such a young age. I know I have a simplistic attitutde, but I'm pretty sure Jesus would never stand for it.

[Twiglett]

if he is religious then really a child has no say over his own religious, moral and social wellbeing in the eyes of organised religions hence the coming of age ceremonies

poor thing .. have you suggested counselling to him

[kiwinat]

As for a biblical answer,

Ezekiel 18:4, 20
The soul that is sinning, it itself will die.

When we die, the bible states that the soul dies, and is conscious of nothing

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

You friend doesn't need to worry that Satan will "own" his soul and torture it, as Ecclesiastes states, the dead are conscious of nothing.

[Chloe55]

That's interesting about the coming of age ceremonies Twiglett. I honestly can't believe that any God would not accept him into heaven because of something he thought he did whilst under a dark cloud.

He is the type of person who needs something in written evidence though, he claims it is just because he is curious as to what the Bible's interpretation is on the whole thing and not because he is necessarily worried about what will happen when he dies. I personally think he is looking for reassurance.

Thanks for your prayers for him MaryBS, I am not actually religious myself but am open to everyone's beliefs. If you would like to mention it on the prayer's thread you are more than welcome, thank you.

I will mention counselling if it seems right for me to when I give him some opinions on this subject.

[Chloe55]

Thanks Kiwinat, that's very helpful

[Twiglett]

if he is christian then surely christianity builds upon the Old Testament and in the Old Testament the coming of age (when a child accepts the responsibility for his own 'soul') is 13

(one of the things I detest about organised religion ... all organised religions ... is the way different rules evolve because different priests .. all male of course .. interpret different things and make rulings and then hordes of people follow them or believe them to be TRUTH .. bollocks)

[Twiglett]

hence not understanding the communion at 7 concept mentioned earlier

[Chloe55]

Thank you so much everyone. I am sure your evidence must put his mind at rest a little.

[MaryBS]

I found this article in the NY Times which touches on the age of reason, and explains the difference between that at the age of 7, and (say) 13, and touches on Catholic Christianity, Judaism and Islam:

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9A02E4DC1E3AF935A2575BC0A96E958260&n=Top%2FReference%2FTimes%20Topics%2FPeople%2FC%2FColes%2C%20Robert

I've picked out the relevant parts:

"AT the age of 7, a child is considered by the Roman Catholic Church to have reached the 'age of reason' and is entitled to receive communion. Some evangelical churches hold that a child of 7 can make an independent spiritual choice. In Judaism and Islam, a boy of 7 is expected to begin his religious studies and participate, to some degree, in adult rituals like fasting and praying. Freud believed the super ego, or the conscience, develops by age 4 or 5. "
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"Both Judaism and Islam, for example, set the age of majority, when children are liable for their actions, at 13 for boys and 12 for girls. 'It's the age of full responsibility and therefore full liability,' said David Kraemer, a professor at the Jewish Theological Seminary. Younger children are considered to have the impulse to do good and evil, he added, 'but not the reason to control the impulse.'

One rabbinic teaching goes further. While rabbinical courts consider a 13-year-old liable for his actions, in the court of heaven the age of majority is 20. 'It was a recognition that the teen-age years were very tumultuous and that, although they are full-grown and can do damage, God recognizes that they can't really be held responsible,' Dr. Kraemer said.

Islam, too, holds that a prepubescent child is not 'fully in control of his senses and doesn't have the power of reasoning to really make an informed judgment,' said Jamal Badawi, a Muslim scholar and chairman of the Islamic Information Foundation in Halifax, Nova Scotia. "
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"Since the days of Pope Pius X nearly a century ago, the Catholic Church has attributed to children of 7 the capacity to understand the consequences of their actions. That is a prerequisite for their First Communion, when they are first given a wafer in the sacrament of the Eucharist. But strict doctrine has given way to pragmatism. 'It all depends on the context,' said the Rev. Richard McCormick, a theologian at the University of Notre Dame. 'One of the criteria used in regard to the Eucharist is the ability to understand, in some very, very primordial sense, the difference between just plain bread and this bread that is really Jesus. As we all grow older, we understand and penetrate that a bit more.'

But children who may be old enough to take communion, he added, are not necessarily thought of as capable of understanding the nature of sin as a break with God. 'It's the conviction of virtually all people that children of that age are incapable of serious sin,' Father McCormick said. "
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"Reason, then, is not really the issue with a child of 7 or 8. 'It's not like a 4-year-old who happens to pull a trigger on a gun and doesn't understand that it kills, or doesn't understand what killing is about altogether, or what death is about,' said Moshe Halbertal, a professor of Jewish thought at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. 'Here, at 7 or 8 or 9, they understand. We don't attribute to them responsibility, but we do attribute to them understanding.'"

[Twiglett]

thanks for that Mary .. interesting reading

and should help the OP very much

[Cazee]

The only sin that Jesus refers to as unforgivable is the "Sin Against the Holy Spirit", which I think is taken to mean thinking that God himself is evil. Everything else is forgivable, if repented of and confessed (This is Catholic teaching, not sure about other denominations). Also to commit a mortal sin, i.e. a sin that leads to the death of your soul, you need complete understanding and complete free will. A child suffering abuse will not have that complete free will, as they are so affected by what is happening. I suggest your friend has a chat with a priest to put his mind at rest.

[Socci]

Message withdrawn

[Socci]

Message withdrawn

[frances5]

What is the devil? Is the devil a being? Or is it just everything in the world that is evil.

Personally I believe in one God, who is all powerful. I don't think that the devil is a god or even a spirt. Therefore I think it is impossible to sell your soul to the devil. Even if it was possible then God can easily defeat powers of evil.

However my opinon is not relevent to your friend. He has to find his own spirtual way and decide what he believes in. Prehaps some appropiate councelling would help. He needs to realise that the abuse he suffered was not his fault.

[Chloe55]

Thanks very much for all your research. I wrote all the quotes down and gave them to my friend. After reading through them he smiled and said they were an interesting read. I am sure, with your help, he feels much more at ease now.