Help needed with non-christian child

[ladyfish]

My husband and I have been Christians for a long time and our children were dedicated in a Baptist church. Ds is now 29 and attends a Baptist church with his wife(not baptised, non-members), dd (24) was baptised at 16 but turned against it almost immediately and now says that "throwing that crutch away was the the hardest thing I ever did". She married a man of 32 and has just had a baby...or just not, the last I heard was that she was having an epidural and it probably has been just born and they have not had a chance to tell us yet.
He is into solstices and the like, don't understand any of it, he was at a navy boarding school and was very put of by the compulsion to attend services etc.
I find it so hard to cope with, knowing that they have this new baby and they will not even thank God for it. They don't believe God has any interest in what happens to them, anybody in the same position?

[frances5]

I am not in the same position as you. Why do you mind her having an epidural? There is nothing in the new testament about pain relief in labour being wrong.

The only thing I can suggest is that you maintain a friendship with your daughter and her husband and pray for them in private. God loves your daughter, her husband and baby even if they dont want to know him at the moment.

My parents pushed me very hard to go to church when I was younger. I was confirmed at 18 because of parental pressure and I rebelled for a few years. In my thirties I now go to church. I had to establish my own relationship with God which is completely independent of my parents.

It is painful for parents to watch, but I think children have to find their only spirtual path. You can only guide them to a point.

[nearlythree]

ladyfish, I'm not in the same position as you either, but I would like to add to what Frances has said. I pretty much agree with her that your dd needs to find her own path. If your son-in-law is into marking the solstices then he probably has pagan or New Age beliefs, so he will be interested in spirituality and the divine. I know that many Christians freak at the idea of paganism but IME there really is no need to and our faiths aren't as far apart as some make out. I'm a Christian and incorporate some things in my faith that people may regard as 'pagan' because they celebrate the natural world that God created. There are lots of lovely pagans who use this site - look at the Interfaith Relations thread for more info.

Anyway, I am sure that you pray for your dd, son-i-l and the little one. If you feel you'd like to contribute to your grandchild's spiritual ubringing by talking about your faith and maybe buying books or a child's Bible, clear it with your daughter first - say something along the lines that you know she wants her child to choose their faith for themselves and you'd like to provide a Christian pov so that he or she can make an informed choice when they are older. You've a much better chance of getting a sympathetic reception. And remember that Christianity isn't some kind of exclusive club - as Philip Yancey says, there is nothing you can do to make God love you more, and nothing you can do to make God love you less. God's face will be shining on this little one.

Finally I'd like to recommend a book for you to give your dd. It's called 10 Principles of Spiritual Parentling and it's by Mimi Doe - you can get it from Amazon. It's written with parents of all beliefs in mind so you may not entirely like all of it - there are contributions from Christians, Jews, pagans and Buddhists - but it will show your dd that you have an open mind about her spirituality, and will encourage her to find her won way with her child. I think it is more important that a child is brought up with the sense of the divine rather than the nuts and bolts of doctrine and organised religion. And maybe your dd will rediscover for herself a fait hthat relects something of your own.

Love and prayers xxx

[DimpledThighs]

I, also, am not int he same position.

Why don't you thank god for the new baby? Their lives will dictate their path and who they think.

In your position I think the best thing you can do is remain unantagonistic and respect your daughter and her husband as parents and that they will make their own choices, it is not for you to see them as right or wrong.

If the channels of communication remain free and fluid you can be there for this child. They may choose to explore christianity at some point in their life and then you will be vital in helping them.

[ladyfish]

Thank you all very much for your messages.
Frances, No I'm not against epidurals, I just mentioned that to show how difficult it was for her. Meanwhile the baby was born at 7.30 this morning and of course I thank God for it and will pray for it every day, I just feel it is so sad they won't do that for themselves, they miss out so much.
We did not pressure her at all to be baptised, she did it entirely off her own bat and then immediately abandoned this new-found faith, never been able to understand that.
Dimpledthighs, you are right, it is not a matter of right or wrong, I'm just feeling around for coping mechanisms for the sadness I feel for them

[DimpledThighs]

ladyfish - reread my post and it may have been a bit harsh - I wan't trying to be critical I just wanted to put a different view, but in hindsight I see you need support so it may have been the wrong way to go about it.

You are very caring to be giving this so much thought. I hope you find support and a way to go forward.

[hunkermunker]

Why be sad?

A new baby is a joyous event, whether the parents thank God for it or not. There's nothing stopping you thanking God for your new grandchild.

Some people don't find comfort from religion. I don't. Somebody asked DH whether we loved our boys because we weren't having them christened - she really believed we didn't love them because we weren't welcoming them to the Church.

Congratulations to your DD and her DH on the birth of their baby.

[Chandra]

And how do you know they are not thanking God? it is not that you have to do it public for every one to know is it? Most prayers are conducted in silence.

[Chandra]

And non christian children are equally loved

I'm the oposite of Frances... my parents had religion hammered into them and they really want us to avoid that. When I was 15 I had to beg my father to let me join a church group, after much talking he realised they were not going to brainwash me or anything of the sort and I really have a good time that I remember as a very happy one.

However it was the judgemental aproach of some people who started questioning me about my "obligations" as a Christian that put me off every organised religion. Since then, my relationship with God is private.

[Monkeytrousers]

Have faith in yourself to love without the help of God

[BadHair]

As an Atheist I find it mildly offensive when Christians believe that I ought to thank their God for my children, and that something is missing from my life because I don't share their views.

Your dd is no doubt over the moon with joy at her new arrival - just be happy for her and her DH and thank your own God in your own way.

[Edam]

You remind me a bit of my grandmother (in a nice way). She was a devout Catholic. Her son, my dad, became an atheist. I was brought up CofE like my mother. Always used to think my Gran was just a bit too 'into' her religion but fine, if she liked that kind of thing - an endearing eccentricity, if you like. Then, when I was in my early 20s, I discovered that she prayed for us every night and was genuinely fearful that my immortal soul was in peril because I was 'living in sin' with dp (now dh). I had had no idea that she was so worried! And was very touched by her concern which I'd previously seen as irritating and intrusive.

Agree you probably need to tread lightly on this one though, new mothers are (rightly) very sensitive to any criticism of their ability to care for their babies.

[nearlythree]

hunkermunker, 'welcoming your child into the church' is the last thing you should do if you love your child - and I say that as a Christian. I'm with Chandra, organised religion is not for me. Leaves me with a massive dilemma over how to get ds baptised though.

[DominiConnor]

I'm not quite sure what a "christian child" might be. It suits various religious leaders to call children christian, moslem or whatever, and if you tell an impressionable child he is an X, he will accept that label.
But that does not make him one. Our 3 year old is is a Pirate. Specifically he is the Pirate King Jack Sparrow.
He has no concept of armed robbery, and believes that the life of a pirate is evenly divided between singing and running away (occasionally at the same time). I'm 99% sure he doesn't even know what the sails on the ship are for, except to display the skull and crossbones

I think it is arrogant in the extreme to say your child must believe in the same stuff as you. That includes atheism.
DSs know that I regard relgion as a dangerous superstition, and when appropriate I point out some of the more stupid lies of superstitious people such as creationism, or that it's "OK" to murder and torture people because they have different superstitions to you.
They are quite free to believe whatever they like, and DS1 has distinctly different views to my own, which I see as good, since the idea is to build up a child who is better than oneself, not shackle them with your own limitations.
DS1 won't get any grief from me about whatever they believe, as long as it's the result of thinking, not blindly accepting views from people who happen to be bigger than them.

[roseylea]

So you won't mind if he becomes a Scientologist then?!?

[roseylea]

Or he could grow up to be a real pirate...

[DominiConnor]

I don't see why people see Scientology as worse than other superstitions. It's harmless nonsense which is more than can be said of most religions. Tom Cruise has never raped kids, nor paid suicide bombers to blow themselves up on tube trains.
All by itself that outclasses Islam and Christianity.

[nearlythree]

No scientologists are paedophiles? None? Have they all been checked by the CRB?

[DominiConnor]

I don't see why people see Scientology as worse than other superstitions. It's harmless nonsense which is more than can be said of most religions. Tom Cruise has never raped kids, nor paid suicide bombers to blow themselves up on tube trains.
All by itself that outclasses Islam and Christianity.

[DominiConnor]

Given the number of Scientologists, it is sadly certain that there's at least any one of any type of bad person in it.
But the difference between it and Christianity/Islam is that the organisation itself does not organise murder or rape.
You can't have any big outfit without some bad people in it, but contrary to what Christians and Moslems seem to accept as "just one of those things" you can have the organisation itself try to stop this, rather than actually organise the crimes itself.

I'm not really a fan of Scientology, but I find it revealing that poeple are quite happy to slag it off in a way they would not do to a bigger one.
As I recall there is a quote of the form "the difference between a religion and a cult is when they have enough political power to get you arrested.".

[Edam]

Scientology was founded by a pulp sci-fi writer who had previously pointed out that the way to get really rich would be to found your own religion, though. Which suggests scientologists are rather gullible.

[gothicmama]

lady fish perhaps you should find out aboutteh solstaces with an open mind, many 'pagan festivals and 'christian'ones have very similar basis's and this could provide common ground there should never be one religion is right and notthe other many pagans live far more christian lives (using the moral code for living) than christians

[roseylea]

DC the reason I chose Scientology to have a go at was exactly what Edam said.

Don't they have to pay to ascend to each level of spirituality? (I might be wrong tho...)

[morningpaper]

Ladyfish I agree with the previous posters who say that YOU can thank God for your grandchild. You could buy the flowers in church for a week, and dedicate them in thanks for your grandchild's safe arrival, ask for special prayers to be made at church, even buy a crate of champagne and share after a Sunday service with your fellow worshippers.

Or you could make a little "shrine" in your home, with a few pictures and things that remind you of your grandchild / daughter / God / the world - add things as you go along, a leaf picked up on a walk etc. Then you can have a little place where you could focus your prayers and thoughts.

Remember as well that your daughter is still YOUR DAUGHTER and her replies to you about God will be defensive and reflect her childish desire to "rebell" against what she knows you WANT her to say. It may not reflect her true feelings. You will never know exactly what GOOD you have done in guiding her journey towards God. She may be more spiritual that she lets you know.

[DominiConnor]

Yes, Scientologists have to pay to "ascend".
I invite you to visit an old church, one where they preserve the bits where poor people sat apart from their betters.
"Rich man in his castle, poor man at his gate."

Not some far right poltical dogma, but a hymn taught to small children by several types of Christian.