How do we prevent the next Syria, Gaza, Iraq.... genocide?

[LoveFoolMe]

How can society help prevent another genocide?

Whilst short-term humanitarian and medical help are great I'm wondering if there're any longer term ideas.

What sociology-political conditions or philosophical approaches are needed to minimise the threat of future ideaological terrorism? What kind of education is needed? Is economic prosperity vital? Can democracy be developed quickly or does it need to develop naturally? How do you break down differences that separate communities and lead to fear, jealousy and violence?

What are your ideas on this?

[wafflyversatile]

A move away from reliance on oil would help. Unfortunately at the moment the powers that be are determined to exploit every last drop (even though that would probably be disastrous in itself)

Equality. The more equitable a society is the more peaceful it is.

[wafflyversatile]

We can't afford for other countries to become like ours, economically. North America and Europe use up far too much of the world's resources and wast too much. So if anything I'd say a downsizing of economic prosperity is required.

[LoveFoolMe]

So you're saying we need equality within each country but can't afford it between countries. Where do we go from there?

[wafflyversatile]

No we need it between countries too. And we can afford it, if the will is there.

You get a lot of people who argue for population control, and from what I can see, they are not looking at their own country but their beady little eyes are on Africa and Asia. But you'd save a lot more resources if you got rid of us!

Better resources management is what we need. Capitalism (in its current form) can't deliver this.

[LoveFoolMe]

What would you replace capitalism/consumerism with?

[LoveFoolMe]

And what about the role of schooling in all this, to encourage understanding and tolerance?

[LoveFoolMe]

So much of the large scale violence seems tribal. Based on ignorance and prejudice.

[wafflyversatile]

Fuck knows. I'm not the brains of the world. But capitalism can't work when it relies on us all consuming more and more stuff. something more socialist?

What is it you want to school people to understand and tolerate? The 1% deserve it all and you deserve to live in a hovel until an easily curable disease kills you? Put up and shut up?

Tribal? The US bombed Iraq because they are from different tribes? We invaded Afghanistan because of our inter-tribal discord?

[LoveFoolMe]

Maybe I'm wrong using the word 'tribal'. I mean violence between different ethnic, cultural or religious groups. Like the violence by the 'Islamic State' against the Yazidi and Iraqi Christians. Murdering people who seem different from the murderers. Hamas and the Israeli government seemingly wanting to wipe each other out. It's all so sad and I wish there was a way of helping future generations share this world more peacefully.

[wafflyversatile]

I'm an atheist. I dislike all religion equally. However remove religion and wars will still be fought. Once you get down to the nub of it most wars are about controlling resources.

The last few years we've had the credit crunch, many jobs cut. Tough times for the 99% (not the 1% - as a startling bit of luck they have come out of this better off...) then ill will towards immigrants, benefit claimants, asylum seekers, hate crimes increase against disabled people, muslims, jews have increased. Someone must be blamed! Yet it's not the people who have the most, the people in power, who set national policy - who have increased their wealth who are blamed, but the people who have the very least. You've heard the phrase 'fighting for crumbs from the rich man's table'?

The 'tribal' aspect is maybe because it is easier to kill someone once you view them as less human than you. But it doesn't have to be along tribal lines, see above.

[wafflyversatile]

Maybe this will be of interest.

www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/8stagesofgenocide.html

Britain usually has elements of 1-4 going on at any one time. We could probably be swayed to genocide within 6 months if the powers that be wanted it.

[LoveFoolMe]

That's an interesting link, thanks.

[wafflyversatile]

Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on
a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people
don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in
Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country."

That was Herman Goerring, when on trial after WWII

There are quite a lot of psychological experiments that, I think, we can learn from if we want to steer away from conflict. Understand how our minds work, and we can um, exploit that.... for good not evil! So education I guess. Understand what we think, why we think it, why we act the way we do. Understand first, then we can maybe change.

Anyway, I don't have the answers. Us humans have weaved a very tangled web between us! Where to even start unpicking it all?

And the road to hell is paved with good intentions!

[LoveFoolMe]

Maybe you don't have all the answers but you've certainly got plenty of thought-provoking ones.

[wafflyversatile]

Have you ever seen Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

Excepting sex (we can't demand sex even if it is a pretty basic human desire) the things on the bottom two tiers should be/are seen as human rights. guaranteed, no human excepted. And I think the global/national powers have a responsibility to facilitate the rest on his pyramid for all humans.

[specialsubject]

I also fear that if we outgrew religion we'd simply find something else to fight about.

the world needs to use less, distribute what we have more evenly,work so that everyone has water, a toilet, shelter, enough food and education. The last is the big one, but it doesn't happen without the others.

and I'm afraid we ARE overpopulated. We need better distribution of resources so that people don't feel the need to have lots of children so there are enough workers to feed everyone. We also need religion removed so that barriers to contraception and immunisation will go.

dream on, sadly.

[LoveFoolMe]

Good point specialsubject, look at Cambodia when religion was forcibly replaced by the state. Maybe a more gradual state secularism would work if combined with fairness and justice although secular France seems to have issues at the moment.

Thinking again about resources for a moment, do you think current taxation in the west needs to change? In countries where individuals are taxed more than companies it seems that indicate corporations are more powerful than voters. If shareholders, CEOs and the ultra rich are deemed more important than the rest of the population won't inequalities perpetuate and resentment continually increase?

[LoveFoolMe]

What do you think we should/can do, crescentmoon?

[wafflyversatile]

Bringing up Cambodia and forcibly removing religion, there isn't a one-step cure. There is no one thing someone can do. Obama, the most powerful person on the planet, couldn't get medicaid through without weakening it considerably. Even if someone had the power forcing sudden change on people doesn't tend to go down that well. eg Making homosexuality and gay marriage legal for anyone 16 plus in 1960 may have had repercussions. Instead we had incremental change leading to where we are now. Fairly peaceably.

On the subject of corporate power v people power I think this is one of the main issues. We don't just involve ourselves in other sovereign states at the point war is imminent. Western policies and actions have been involved behind the scenes for a long time propping up dictators etc to serve business interests.

People before profit. I'm amazed at what conditions we are expected to swallow for the benefit of 'the market'. The market is a non-sentient being. What is in the interests of 'the market' is against the interests of all but a very tiny number of people.


The EU are looking to bring in TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) ostensibly to improve trade between America and here and make us all rich! This will give corporations more power in comparison to governments. One thing you could do is support opposing that. It will reduce workers rights and force govts to privatise public entities even if they don't want to. Similar agreements (Trans Pacific) saw the Australian govt. successfully sued by Philip Rothman for reduction in profits when the brought in a policy to make cigarette packets plain. So, for instance, if the UK govt decided to make fracking illegal, oil companies could sue the UK for billions in lost potential profits under the TTIP agreement as proposed.

I said I didn't have answers but one thing you could do is join a union and encourage others to do likewise. Unionised workplaces usually have better terms and conditions and are more likely to get (bigger) pay rises. this could help keep income differentials more equal.

One thing to think about is that politically you (I'm assuming you're not closely related to the queen, Bill Gates or a cabinet member) and I have more in common with the 99% across the world than we do with the 1% in this country.

I disagree that we are over-populated and unless you are sanctioning killing off the majority of North Americans and Europeans it's a moot point at this time. A more equitable educated global population would probably see a drop in population growth anyway.

[machair]

Why do people from the UK go and join the terrorists in these countries? As for Israel, I understand that it is probably the most tolerant country in the Middle East. It's easy to blame religion for the problems but we all have free will. Just some thoughts. I don't know the answer.

[wafflyversatile]

Because they don't see them as terrorists, but freedom fighters? Because they seek adventure? Because they are deeply offended at what the other side is doing? Because they are deluded? Because they are not deluded?

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of a situation terrorism is what people without an army to do their bidding do against people who do have an army to do their bidding.

Terrorism is a very loaded term much favoured by the people with big armies to do their bidding. I fail to see how it is worse to be killed by a terrorist bomb than a remotely controlled drone.

[4boysxhappy]

Coming from a mostly Jewish family most of which are members of Jews for justice (that means we don't support Israel) religion is not the cause of wars but often the excuse.

People and human nature are the issue. Greed for power and land, the need to be right and to push your ideas onto others. You only have to read posts on this forum to see some people will always be like this no matter how you try to reason with them.

[wafflyversatile]

Thank you, crescent. Mostly just disjointed thoughts. nothing I can stitch together and use to take over the world.

I've got 'pinky and the brain' in my head now.