I have a genuine curiosity about headscarves

(41 Posts)
blueraincoat Mon 14-Oct-13 18:52:59

Please pardon my ignorance I just have a question and no one in RL who would know the answer. I have noticed recently, particularly young women, wearing their headscarves in such a way that it's sort of built up with lots of folds of fabric on top of their head. I just wondered if this is a "fashion" thing (the way they are wearing the headscarf not the wearing of the headscarf itself) or specific to a certain culture or group and I'm just noticing it more. Not the most intellectual of questions but I live in an area with a large Muslim population and I see this more and more and am genuinely curious. TIA!

Yougotbale Thu 17-Oct-13 13:59:48

If it is wrong for someone to judge another, is it right for a religion or a God to judge someone within that religion?

And secondly, someone outside of that religion?

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy Thu 17-Oct-13 14:19:54

A religion is a concept - it doesn't have the capacity to judge. If you mean people within said religion (if a person who is covering for religious reasons and/or has any religion), then while that person's religious community can set up guidelines, surely any judgement is not only not their place, but would be against said religions tenets about how to treat people.

I'm not sure what kind of answer I can give on whether or not it's right for a deity to judge, but we're talking about people. People saying that a deity or deities would judge them for wearing X or not wearing Y falls under the same category as people within a religion.

People outside of a religion or culture should not try to set up standards, rules, or judge clothing based on some kind of point they perceive. Coming from a culture where our clothes were forcibly taken from us along with many other aspects of our culture, where we are still currently denied being able to wear them in public and having them and their patterns turn into costumes by others for their profit and amusement, there is a lot of issues with the idea that people outside of a culture can tell people within what we wear and why and act as if they know better about our own practices than we do. As I said, it would be like me telling people that they aren't celebrating Christmas right, I don't celebrate it, for what reason would I try to dictate the hows and the whys of it.

Yougotbale Thu 17-Oct-13 15:23:13

Religion maybe a concept, religion will use the idea of the supernatural as a tool to judge others. Be it other religions, races, non-believers, homosexuals, women, etc. the fact that religion makes judgement so regularly, and it is religion that passes on these judgements to its followers. I don't think these judgements are correct.

I don't think that people within religion, should be offended by someone giving an opinion or judgement on a 'religious matter' or a fashion matter.

Yougotbale Thu 17-Oct-13 15:25:59

It's not telling you what to wear. The poster gave an opinion, on his interpretation of a scripture.

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy Thu 17-Oct-13 16:11:54

Religion doesn't do anything. It can't - it is a concept. People use religion, but the religion itself can't do anything. People do things, not concepts, concepts can't do anything unless a person interprets and applies it. And many other concepts - science, popular culture, history, philosophy - like religion are made by people and used to pass judgement but they can do nothing without the people - they would just be ideas in the ether. Separating them from the people makes them useless.

When your opinion comes to saying that people, particularly of a different group you don't belong to, aren't doing things right or are missing "the point" of their own religion, culture, or choices, it should be questioned why one should think they are in any position to decide that better than the people themselves. And these opinions often become telling people what to wear in daily life, both in law and in civil situations - it happens a lot and should be questioned.

It's not scripture (where it could be interpreted in is a debate for those communities, not for outsiders to impose), but these perceptions are mostly from popular culture representations of a religion and several cultures, representations that are which are flawed, biased, and homogenizing of over a billion people on the hows and whys they do things. It's like a White American telling an Ojibwe that to wear a traditional item to a civil event would ruin the meaning of said item because they're only doing it for fashion/to cause a stir. Oh wait, they're still doing that now, in 2013, all the time - people have been fined over $1000 for wearing a single feather, been refused their diplomas over a single feather that has a world of meaning to the person and culture involved, but to an outsider they think it is "missing the point" to wear in civil situations and say it's just someone being rebellious/ruining the atmosphere. Their judgement has ruined people's lives because they think they know better about over 500 American indigenous nations and why we do things.

I'm not offended or upset, I just think it is rather entitled to think that someone with no personal involvement would know more about it and are in a better position to judge than the person involved. I would take absolutely no stock in said opinion of someone with no experience and would challenge the attitude and beliefs behind it. Just as I would from a non-medical person who has no experience of my medical conditions trying to give me tips, typically they just come across as a bit silly and very clueless.

Yougotbale Thu 17-Oct-13 16:32:59

The philosophy of religion is judgemental. If people take values from that philosophy. Some religion is enforced by state. Other indoctinates it's followers. If it makes you happier to say that people will act judgementally, because of their religious philosophies.
I am happy to say that religion is judgemental and gods are judgemental.

Religion and cultures should not be against critique. Or beyond someone passing comment on them.

Cultures change, naturally or as a result of war or colonialism. Originally a head scarf was not part of culture in the UK, now many British people are Muslim.

The poster, was not telling anyone what to wear. If anything religious people are dictating this. He simply made an opinion. His opinion may not be as informed but he is untitled to it.

It's almost as though religion and Gods are beyond comment. When these religions are happy to spread judgement on everyone else.

Anyway, I had a vision that all gods were gay. They are depicted as men. They all hang out up there trying on thongs

RussianBlu Thu 17-Oct-13 19:00:38

I have been quietly watching this thread after posting my opinion. I imagine that people are referring to me when they talk about someone pretty much having the cheek to comment on something I am not part of or know nothing about. Perhaps I am wrong and it is all directed towards another poster. It is sad that just because another poster very quickly decided that I couldn't possibly be Muslim because I didn't wish to confirm if I was or not (due to me not wanting to give many facts about myself that would identify me to others) that others have also decided that she must be correct and that I have no right to speak my mind. Thank you to those who are able to see that everyone is entitled to an opinion regardless of their religious beliefs in this matter.

At no point did I judge anyone for how they wear hijab or not. My opinion still holds that it is a fashion and not the most modest way to wear it. I am not sure why somebody would assume that I am not Muslim just because I hold this view, but then some people do like to look for an argument without looking at all the facts first. I am fairly sure that if you were to put it to an Imam or Islamic scholar they would not advise the wearing of hijab in such a way that it stands out so much when there are other ways to wear it. No doubt I will be flamed for this opinion also. Someone who wears the scarf this way may well be a better person than someone who wears niqab, who are we to know.

I am just really quite amazed that someone took what I said and turned it into something quite different. I answered the original poster quite simply with my point of view, not slandering anyone or saying anything terrible, simply saying that it was very fashionable and not very modest when worn together with tight clothing. I said nothing about a persons morals or reason for wearing it in this way.

GoshAnneGorilla Algeria Thu 17-Oct-13 20:48:46

Russian - there are plenty of Muslims on Mumsnet, I'm not sure saying you were Muslim would make you hugely outable here. You're coming across as a bit precious, especially when others have been open about their religious affiliations, or the lack thereof.

Spork - I appreciate your comments so much, you enrich every thread you're on. smile

Yougotbale Thu 17-Oct-13 23:26:08

Spork - you made up an argument that people are trying to tell people what to wear, on this thread.
They are simply giving an opinion. They might not be a Muslim but they are entitled to their opinion. Islamic philosophy, for example, has an opinion of Christians, Jews, infidels, etc. many Muslims adopt these as their view points. Some of these views you would class as judgements rather than a simple opinion.

Talking about native Americans, they have belief that the men would become bad hunters if they were near a woman that was menstruating. Any woman menstruating would be moved away from the men for this period.
My opinion of this is that it oppresses a woman purely because of her biology. It is wrong.
I don't expect my opinion to be valued by that group but I am entitled to it.
Being dictated what to wear, I don't agree with but this isn't the case on this thread. Alternatively, I wouldn't follow the cultural rules of dress in a particular country (maybe a religious standard of dress). If I lived there and the population changed and society moved away from the original culture. I would expect a gradual change in dress and more than likely a compromise or middle ground of dress to be reached.

Of course you would seek a doctors opinion??? But you shouldn't silence other people's opinion either. You probably wouldn't solely seek medical info from a public Internet forum.
If you had asked me I'd say see a doctor.

Yougotbale Thu 17-Oct-13 23:27:33

*would follow

cloutiedumpling Fri 18-Oct-13 10:28:51

I think it is interesting that you find both Muslim and Christian women covering their heads (albeit only a small percentage of Christian women do so). Does anyone know if Jewish women do so also?

stressedHEmum Fri 18-Oct-13 11:24:46

Yes, many Jewish women wear a tichel (mitpatchat). It's worn by married orthodox Jewish women. it isn't worn like hijab to cover the neck and shoulders but just the hair. it is often tied over the hair to look like a bun at the nape of the neck. That's the way I usually wear mine, as well.

cloutiedumpling Fri 18-Oct-13 11:46:56

Thanks. I don't know any Jewish people to ask.

OddBoots Fri 18-Oct-13 15:54:45

Some women who are Jewish cover their hair - Wiki link.

sashh Sun 03-Nov-13 18:04:59

Oooh can I hijack and ask if you are allowed to compliment someone?

I bloody hope so, I do it quite a lot, about some scarves but also some of the hairgrips/pins. There was a fashion a year or so ago for there to be a sparkly pin just above the ear, very fetching.

FantasticDay Sun 03-Nov-13 18:16:54

Many Jewismarried women cover their hair, but with a wig, so you wouldn't necessarily recognize they were covering ,- iyswim

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