The Pope

(94 Posts)
PedroPonyLikesCrisps Thu 28-Feb-13 08:09:21

The Pope is supposed to be a 'chosen' conduit to God..... So why is he elected by humans?

KenDoddsDadsDog Thu 21-Mar-13 21:11:13

Well I do get a torch shone in my eyes.......and the funny smell hmmm.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Fri 22-Mar-13 09:27:38

"Atheists are soooo narrow-minded and scared, ime."

I'd like to know how you come to that conclusion. Religious people following blindly the bizarre convoluted messages from a book with no acceptance that it might all be fiction vs atheists who embrace scientific development, regularly recheck their way of thinking, look in wonder and awe at the beautiful universe which has spawned from a simple set of fundamental laws of physics. Constantly challenging ideas, throwing away what doesn't work and moving with the times.

But I guess we're the close minded ones because we don't find it entertaining to listen to some guy prattle on about how a dude in a book has some strangle hold on my life and watches me while I pee.

For what it's worth, I find the religious to be the more scared. After all, that's what the whole thing's about. Live by God's way or you won't have a decent after life. Someone's died, but I can't accept they're gone so I'll pretend they are looking down on me from heaven. Science takes too much thinking and I don't get it so I'll just take the easy path and pretend that everything was just made how it is....

LeBFG Fri 22-Mar-13 09:47:31

All this huddle of cardinals is a bit odd - if god had decided who's the one, all the priests would be in agreement. I suppose this is evidence that some cardinals are closer to god than others.

How do we know which is the chosen one? Very easily imo. How did we know Jesus was the one? Joan of Arc was also chosen by god. You just stand up and say 'I'm it. I'm the one'. Then everyone follows. Simples.

WhatKindofFool Fri 22-Mar-13 11:44:09

Pedro Are you saying that people who believe in God don't question and analyse their beliefs? Are you saying that religious people have blind faith and believe everything that is put in front of them?

sieglinde Fri 22-Mar-13 12:30:55

Well said, WhatKindOf. Another set of bigoted assumptions from Pedro, and all of them wrong.

Said sieglinde, who spent an hour on the last clear night looking at the stars and thinking about the Big Bang (which was btw first suggested by an RC monk...) and who has some university science qualifications, and who never thinks of her late mother looking down on her from anywhere, and who has never been afraid of damnation, ever. Make a straw man, and throw things at him.... that's what bigots do.

What Pedro means is that we must be closed-minded because our reexaminations do not lead us to agreement with her.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Fri 22-Mar-13 19:16:07

"Pedro Are you saying that people who believe in God don't question and analyse their beliefs? Are you saying that religious people have blind faith and believe everything that is put in front of them?"

Blind faith? For those who believe in a god or gods, yes, you have to have blind faith because there's no evidence.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Fri 22-Mar-13 19:29:45

"(which was btw first suggested by an RC monk...)" I presume you are referring to Georges Lemaître, who was indeed a Catholic Priest who based his work on that of Einstein. He proposed an expanding model of the universe, but 'big bang' was actually coined by Sir Fred Hoyle... Who was neither Catholic, nor a priest, nor a monk.

sieglinde Sat 23-Mar-13 11:55:49

Yes, I did mean Lemaitre. You will also no doubt recall that he was relentlessly dissed by the people of his own time...

The term 'big bang' is not the same as the theory of the 'big bang'.

sieglinde Sat 23-Mar-13 11:56:46

"Blind faith? For those who believe in a god or gods, yes, you have to have blind faith because there's no evidence."

What you mean is, no evidence that you accept.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sat 23-Mar-13 13:56:40

No, there's no evidence. None. And when I say evidence, I mean something that can actually be verified (not just someone's word) and that actually demonstrates the existence of a god or gods to a reasonable degree of certainty. There is nothing even close to being evidence. Never has been.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sat 23-Mar-13 14:24:13

"You will also no doubt recall that he was relentlessly dissed by the people of his own time..."
Funny you mention that because there's no shortage of scientists who had a lot worse than a dissing dished out by the Christians of the time who were so close minded they refused to accept that the bi Le might be wrong.

"The term 'big bang' is not the same as the theory of the 'big bang'."
Correct, but the principle of an expanding universe is also not the same as the big bang.

ethelb Sat 23-Mar-13 18:21:14

Because how else would it be done?

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 24-Mar-13 01:07:46

Pedro, is this thread a very convoluted way of you telling us that you're not a Catholic and don't believe in god?

sieglinde Sun 24-Mar-13 12:15:14

Pedro, if those are your criteria, there is an amazing dearth of evidence for most things in the past. We can't accept the existence of Alexander the Great, for example.

On the dissing, I assume you refer to the cases of Galileo (who died in 1642) and others on the Copernican universe? Others may not know that these cases took place some three hundred years before scientists refused to listen to Lemaitre (who died in 1966) Unless - do you mean the RC church's war on Marx and Freud? About whom they now look to be very much in the right...

On your other point, I was of course speaking of Lemaitre's hypothesis of the single primeval atom, not JUST of his theory of the expanding universe. It is of course the former which is now generally regarded as the Big Bang theory.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sun 24-Mar-13 12:29:35

Galileo was jailed for his sins in a world where religion controlled everything. Try locking someone up in the UK for telling people that the Sun revolves around the Earth in this day and age. Makes me sick.

You might not realise it, but most prominent scientists are tackled by their peers, especially if they have a new way of thinking. That's how science works. But it sure as hell doesn't prove anything about religion's place in scientific development just because a religionist had an idea which turned out to be accepted by the scientific community.

sieglinde Sun 24-Mar-13 14:22:41

So your knowledge was confined to Galileo. I thought as much. Given that the RC church is not locking anyone up now, why do you keep on and on about this?

And stop being patronising. of COURSE I know how science works. But Lemaitre was also attacked by the militant atheists of his day....

KenDoddsDadsDog Sun 24-Mar-13 14:58:40

Aren't new ways of thinking in all areas challenged by their peers Pedro? That was super patronising.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sun 24-Mar-13 15:19:45

"So your knowledge was confined to Galileo. I thought as much. Given that the RC church is not locking anyone up now, why do you keep on and on about this?

And stop being patronising. of COURSE I know how science works. But Lemaitre was also attacked by the militant atheists of his day...."

Hahaha, I love how you make stuff up. How exactly do you come to the conclusion that my knowledge is confined to Galileo? I used it as an example you might have heard of. And I'm hardly going on about it, I mentioned it once because it was relevant to the point you were trying to make.

Lemaitre wasn't exactly attacked by militant atheists either unless you read the articles on Catholic websites oddly enough......some of his scientific peers didn't like the theological ideas which his theory raised, but as it turns out, he was probably wrong anyway. Still I'm not quite sure what the point of mentioning him in the first place was anayway.

sieglinde Sun 24-Mar-13 15:39:28

Why don't you cite the other examples, then? I like to learn. smile And you haven't explained why you are droning on about events from the seventeenth century.

I'm afraid I don't go to "Catholic websites" for information on these matters. Since you agree that Lemaitre's supposed religious 'bias' was the subject of attack, I think we are in broad agreement. You might also want to note that most histories of science portray him as the father of Big Bang.

The point of mentioning him was to refute your Dawkins-based caricature of people of religion as unable to appreciate the wonder of the stars.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sun 24-Mar-13 16:00:00

Rhazes, Servetus, Oldenburg, Domagk, Einstein. But the bigger issue is that you assumed because I didn't mention them in the first place, then I must not wonder you believe in god.

It wasn't the religious bias at all, it was the fact that he attributed the 'primordial atom' (which wouldn't have been an atom anyway) had parallels with the story of Genesis. Some people didn't like that, some people jumped on it as 'proof' of god, etc. but I don't believe he was persecuted in the way that religious governments have been capable in the past when they had the power.

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 08:18:36

But al-Razi is a hero to Islam... and even longer ago than Galileo, and so too is Servetus longer ago (1500s).

How was Einstein - this is Albert, I assume? - persecuted by RELIGION as opposed to by the viciously antisemitic regimes he lived under? Ditto Domagk, who was forced to refuse the Nobel because the Nazis were pissed off that it had been awarded to one of their enemies... and how are these cases in ANY WAY relevant to the churches in 2013?

You aren't by ANY chance seeing Nazism as Xtian, are you? I hope to God I've misunderstood you.

Is Oldenburg Claes Oldenburg? (Surely not.. I confess bewilderment.)

I never said that Lemaitre was persecuted in any way analogous to the Inquisition. [Makes patient face]. I said that he showed you could look at the stars and glory in the reality of the universe and be a CHRSTIAN. I also said that he met with some of the belligerent bigotry YOU are displaying.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 09:17:58

Ok, if you really want to bring Hitler in to the equation. He was a Catholic and built the Nazi empire on Christian doctrine. He persecuted the Jews because he believed that God had called upon him to fight them.

Einstein was a (non practicing) Jew and was stripped of his post in Berlin following the rise of the Hitler regime.

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 09:24:16

I didn't want to bring in Hitler, and I didn't. You did, with Einstein.

HITLER WAS NOT A CATHOLIC. He gave up being a Catholic in his teens. Go look at Ian Kershaw's biography. And stripping Jews of their posts under the Nuremberg laws was NOT a religious action against science.

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 10:21:33

You might also want to look at the violently secularist Stalinist regime's persecution of scientists, with its particular violence against geneticists:

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 12:32:09

Hitler WAS a Catholic:

“The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement)
was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work.”

[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

“I have followed [the Church] in giving our party program the
character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has
never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred
years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its
amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been
rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be
built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or
irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long
as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it.”

[Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, The Voice of Destruction, pp. 239-40]

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest
not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian
and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord
at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the
Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight
against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with
deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact
that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As
a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have
the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is
anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is
the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty
to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and
work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only
for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning
and see these men standing in their queues and look into their
pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very
devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two
thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people
are plundered and exposed.”

[Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a
political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on
his personal Christian feelings. Published in "My New Order", quoted
in Freethought Today April 1990]

“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]

“What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the
fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission
assigned to it by the Creator.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 125]

“This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the
practical existence of a religious belief.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152]

“And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove
those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.174]

“Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another… while the
enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.309]

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so”

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

“Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be
wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in
a fanatical outlook.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 171]

“I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn
splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the
abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my
father, the highest and most desirable ideal.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 1]

“I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from
time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At
all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man
and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna’s destinies: Dr.
Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 2]

“…the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party… was to
assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people
fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether
Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly
at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single
holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to
his own heaven.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“Political parties has nothing to do with religious problems, as long
as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and
ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the
scheming of political parties.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of
his people must always remain inviolable; or else has no right to be
in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes!

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was
wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“It [Christian Social Party] recognized the value of large-scale
propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological
instincts of the broad masses of its adherents.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked
among the great minds of our people.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3, about the leader of
the Christian Social movement]

“Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy
enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an
overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted
to live at this time.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

“I had so often sung ‘Deutschland u:ber Alles’ and shouted ‘Heil’ at
the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of
grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the
eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

“Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very
first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always
and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence
which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering
and uncertain.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

“I soon realized that the correct use of propaganda is a true art
which has remained practically unknown to the bourgeois parties. Only
the Christian- Social movement, especially in Lueger’s time achieved
a certain virtuosity on this instrument, to which it owed many of its

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 6]

“Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along
the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord’s grace
smiled on His ungrateful children.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 7, reflecting on World
War I]

“The more abstractly correct and hence powerful this idea will be,
the more impossible remains its complete fulfillment as long as it
continues to depend on human beings… If this were not so, the
founders of religion could not be counted among the greatest men of
this earth… In its workings, even the religion of love is only the
weak reflection of the will of its exalted founder; its significance,
however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a
universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

“To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other
great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin
Luther as well as Richard Wagner.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

“The fight against syphilis demands a fight against prostitution,
against prejudices, old habits, against previous conceptions, general
views among them not least the false prudery of certain circles. The
first prerequisite for even the moral right to combat these things is
the facilitation of earlier marriage for the coming generation. In
late marriage alone lies the compulsion to retain an institution
which, twist and turn as you like, is and remains a disgrace to
humanity, an institution which is damned ill-suited to a being who
with his usual modesty likes to regard himself as the ‘image’ of God.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

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