C of E basic questions

(58 Posts)
flotsomandjetsom Sun 13-Jan-13 21:03:48

I am a lapsed catholic and recently started attending a C of E church which I have enjoyed. If we decide to stay with C of E what happens about my child in terms of sacrements? She is baptised catholic. I assume she cant be baptised C of E, but do they have 1st holy communion and is confirmation different?

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 21-Jan-13 21:58:41

Haha!! My arguments would be much more solid if I was!

What evidence would you like?

niminypiminy Mon 21-Jan-13 21:41:47

How do I know you're not a spam-bot generated by Richarddawkins.net? I have no evidence that you're a real person let alone a real person with a child.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 21-Jan-13 21:09:53

Of course I have a child, I'd look pretty odd hanging around Mumsnet if I didn't.

Indoctrination of children is incredibly easy when it comes to teaching them what is true. Getting them not to put their fingers in a plug socket is a completely different thing to explaining to them that God made all the flowers. It's surprisingly easy to indoctrinate many adults too apparently. Just look a the number of people who get caught up in cults like Scientology. Vulnerable people are easy to convince and children are some of the most vulnerable, innocent and niaive humans that there are.

The CofE is a Christian organisation. Christians have been the direct cause of numerous wars and acts of terrorism throughout human history. As a whole they are milder now, but by no means completely peaceful. Religious disagreement is the main cause of hostile aggression in the world. Islam is currently going through a period of global aggression as they have more influence in the world than they ever have and they have very similar structures of low level moderate followers supporting the wider organisations.

niminypiminy Mon 21-Jan-13 20:57:38

Rubbish. Paranoid fantasy.

Perhaps you do not have children and so do not know how hard it is to get them to do anything they do not want to. For example, you have to tell them to say 'please' and 'thankyou' many hundreds of times before they will learn to say it. I only wish it was so easy to indoctrinate them as you suppose. My job as a parent would be so much easier!

But seriously, I can't really see that the CofE is being manipulated by extremists to support some of the most horrendous acts ever perpetuated. It is more likely that it is a stealth operation to support the profits of PG Tips and United Biscuits.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 21-Jan-13 20:48:08

Not at all, I'm fascinated to understand the belief. But I'm bothered about the confirmation of minors because inducting children into a faith before they understand exactly what it means is unfair. They do it "willingly" because they are conditioned to believe that it is something they should do and are not presented with alternative faiths (or non faith based understanding).

This conditioning leads them to support their church (or building of choice for their faith), they attend regularly, taking with them their fairy tales and converting them to "truths". This propagates a larger organisation which thrives on relieving it's members of their small change, relieving it's more deeply invested of their lives and relieving tax payers of millions of pounds every year in this country alone.

These wider organisations, supported at the lowest level by their unsuspecting moderate believers, are manipulated by devout extremists to support some of the most horrendous acts ever brought upon the human race.

This is why I have a problem with a ceremony being performed for a child which is supposed to be an educated decision to follow a faith. It is no less child abuse at its core than slicing off pieces of genitalia of babies to appease a deity.

niminypiminy Mon 21-Jan-13 20:38:48

Those of us who have childen do our best to bring them up in the light of the values that we believe in and live out, and to teach them the things we have found to be true, and to pass on what we believe the best way to live. For Christians that means bringing our children up in the faith that we ourselves practice. So, Pedro, that's why I take my children to church, and why I hope they will be confirmed at whatever age they think they want to.

MaryBS Mon 21-Jan-13 20:27:31

So if you don't believe, why are you bothered about Confirmation? Or anything else that has been said on this thread?

I'd gladly explain my thought processes about God, and why he allows suffering, but it would take a long time, and involves a journey of half a life time, so to properly explain it would take some time, but I don't think you're really interested, you're just trying to derail this thread.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 21-Jan-13 20:19:26

I don't need to explain why he doesn't because I don't believe he exists. Those who DO believe he exists but can't explain, for example, why he would allow natural disasters to kill thousands of innocent people, say that he moves in mysterious ways and that we can not understand why he chooses to allow the things he does. This seems to be a sufficient answer to believers without further question. Which is rather insulting to the intelligence of most people.

GinandJag Mon 21-Jan-13 20:14:51

God surpasses understanding which is equivalent to saying mysterious.

Of course God has thought processes far superior to those he created.

MaryBS Mon 21-Jan-13 20:12:38

Didn't say that. In fact some of the most judgmental people I've come across have been Christian.

God DOES move in mysterious ways. Not a get out at all. IF he doesn't would you care to explain why you think he doesn't?

AND you didn't answer the question about whether someone with Down's should be disqualified from Confirmation?

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 21-Jan-13 20:07:52

"God moves in a mysterious way"

Ah, the all encompassing get out clause to explain anything that doesn't really fit.

Mary, why is it that the only alternative to being Christian is being judgy?

GinandJag Mon 21-Jan-13 20:04:03

Bless you, Mary smile

MaryBS Mon 21-Jan-13 19:59:58

Thank God for God's grace, thats all I can say. God moves in a mysterious way, his wonders to perform. Thank God Jesus said let the little children come to me. Thank God I'm bringing my children up in a Christian household, so they can understand properly what it means to be a Christian without being tempted to join the churchofjudgypants (not that I am saying anyone on here belongs of course... wink)

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 21-Jan-13 19:20:19

If people were not subjected to any kind of religious faith until they were adults, many fewer would join the sects. Because children are subjected to the fairy tales when they are younger and have it presented to them as fact, they believe it because of an inherent compulsion of juveniles to trust their superiors (parents, guardians, people of status in their community). This is an evolved trait as it's genetically advantageous to trust the experience of parents. This trait also exists in those with impaired mental capacity. Nothing says that they cannot live an active life nor that they cannot have a genuine faith. But they will most certainly have difficulty making the decision to choose a belief on their own. Mad, they guy in your church, if he had been brought up in a Muslim household, do you think he would be attending your Christian church?

GinandJag Mon 21-Jan-13 17:05:58

“Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

MadHairDay Mon 21-Jan-13 10:39:15

Pedro, you don't seem to have answered my question about adults with learning difficulties. There is a man in our church with Down's Syndrome, he has very little understanding in terms of what you qualify as suitable understanding, yet he has a living and active faith. Would you disqualify him from confirmation? Because by your logic about children, you would.

Tuo Mon 21-Jan-13 02:04:34

That's OK, ItalianGreyhound. I realised that. And, yes, I didn't mean to come across as aggressive, though I may well have come across as defensive, since something important to me and to my daughter had been defined as 'disgusting'.

Sorry tuo I was responding to Pedro not you and defining a commitment to faith in my words as personal, not commenting on what you had written, as I did not see it until after I posted.

A comittment to faith is something personal between an individual and God (imho). The service of confirmation (or believers baptism in some churches) is an outward expression of this. The vast majority of people talking about confirmation were talking about people who are older.

Pedro I am sorry if you sense aggression. There was a comment about a confirmation being 'disgusting', which I think was rather offensive. Also, I think it might be that this was a thread asking about specific things about a denomination not one wanting to discuss the bigger issues in this specific space.

For that reason I think I will leave it there but I wanted to reply to you simply because I did not want you to feel that Christians are afraid to discuss faith. I am sure there are lots of other threads on here where Christians are doing just that.

Tuo Sun 20-Jan-13 23:29:34

Err... no. I said that someone else's child who was confirmed with my dd was 7. My dd was 10, and I have explained why I felt that she was 'qualified' (in your bizarre term) to do so, on the basis of her own understanding of and desire to commit to her faith.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sun 20-Jan-13 23:18:13

It's odd how aggressive everyone gets when their religions are challenged on their morality. I was only responding initially to bizarre comfortability which people seem to have in letting their 7 year olds commit to a faith which they clearly are not qualified to do.

I got confirmed at 18 having become a Christian at 18. I knew a little of other faiths but not a lot. I loved Jesus, and still do. I wanted to publicly declare that love.

I got married at 36, I had not loved many other men, nor did I know much about them, I wanted to committ to the one I loved.

I think that love and faith are quite similar, it is about heart knowledge as well as head knowledge.

niminypiminy Sun 20-Jan-13 22:39:55

Pedro, I am wondering why you feel compelled to post on this thread. This is not really the place to conduct a debate about whether parents who are practising Christians should take their children to church with them, and teach their children about their faith, nor about whether God exists, or whether science is superior, or whether the Bible is true. You would be welcome to start such a thread, and you would find Christians who would be willing to debate with you.

What I can say with some certainty is that Christians will not suddenly see the light of atheism if it is presented in such a rude and hectoring fashion.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sun 20-Jan-13 22:10:08

You said you knew nothing of the other faiths. I'm not being condescending, merely clarifying what your position was. Either you had some knowledge of them or not.

Don't be sorry, I'm not.
What kind of scientist are you?

GinandJag Sun 20-Jan-13 22:02:51

Pedro, I am not stupid. I know of other faiths. I have lived overseas, and now live in probably the most racially diverse part of the UK. Stop trying to be condescending.

I forgot to mention that I am also a scientist.

I am sorry that you don't have what I have.

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