I've had it with the Catholic/Christian gaybashing

[Tortington]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9795680/Gay-marriage-could-signal-return-to-centuries-of-persecution-say-1000-Catholic-priests.html
re: the above article, ive looked into regining formally from the Catholic church - ive not been to church since christmas 2011 and my crisis of faith is entwined in this.

i have always laways seperated out faith and religion. always. Catholic history is a shower of shite, torture, power and money grabbing and sexual abuse - i'm not going to defend that.

i am finding this letter one step too far

i mean, WWJD - its a cliche i know, it makes me want to puke suburban America up in a frilly apron - but jesus wouldn't do this, he wouldn't.
yet i looked at the pro-forma resignation letter and felt sick, i can't do it. i don't know whats wrong with me, i am usually so fucking principled.

does anyone else have a view?

[edam]

Oh dear. Love the way those who want to discriminate against gay people try to turn it round so they are the victims. 'Oh, poor little meeeee, it's all about meeee, you are oppressing meee by stopping me oppressing gay people'. Shitforbrains.

I wonder whether misogynists were pulling this trick back in the days of the suffragettes... in fact I'm sure they must have been, probably talking about votes for women devaluing democracy or some such shite.

One of my Mum's best friends is a Catholic priest (not a parish priest), he says the Vatican is full of screaming queers (and he should know, he makes Graham Norton look boring and middle-of-the-road - he 'lived a full life' before getting the call to the priesthood, is the way he puts it).

From my reading of the gospels, Jesus would have regarded them the same way he regarded the Pharisees. Not very impressed, is my guess. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone and all that.

(Nice to see you around, btw, very rarely bump into you these days.)

[tribpot]

Link to story for anyone not wanting to give the Telegraph a page hit.

I found the quotes I read laughable, but then I am not a Catholic or a Christian. I have friends who are, and who oppose gay marriage. That's their choice. I don't think their religious convictions should outweigh the civil concept of marriage and Christians don't, after all, 'own' marriage.

Would it not be better to stay within the church and fight this? I'm aware that traditional Catholicism does not - how shall we say - encourage a plurality of opinion, but I think if I were you I would want to be sacked rather than resign for this one.

[edam]

I'm sorry this is so painful for you, btw. I'm not a Catholic (although half my family were) so it's not agonising for me personally. More frustrating that a bunch of bullies are trying to dictate the laws of the land that affect people who aren't part of their group. The Catholic church can set the rules for Catholic marriage, but keep their nose out of civil marriage, IMO (or indeed CofE or Muslim or Quaker etc. etc. etc.).

[Tortington]

cheers tribot and edam - i agree completely of course about keeping their nose out - what i find so hard it that these very well educated people - and they are, are missing the point

i am assumng the subtext here is power / money but i don't know the link.

true men of god would not deliberatly make a campaign against a certain csection of society

[tribpot]

This has some interesting quotes from arguments against women's suffrage, btw. Including:

"Women would be corrupted by politics and chivalry would die out.

If women became involved in politics, they would stop marrying, having children, and the human race would die out.

Women were emotional creatures, and incapable of making a sound political decision.

Because all government rests ultimately on force, to which women, owing to physical, moral and social reasons, are not capable of con­tributing.

Because there is little doubt that the vast majority of women have no desire for the vote.

Because the acquirement of the Parliamentary vote would logically involve admission to Parliament itself, and to all Government offices. It is scarcely possible to imagine a woman being Minister for War, and yet the principles of the Suffragettes involve that and many similar absurdities.

Because past legislation in Parliament shows that the interests of women are perfectly safe in the hands of men. " [My emphasis]

[edam]

Yes, our friend-the-priest looked into going over to the CofE (in disgust at child abuse scandals) but said Anglican theology and academic was just far less intellectually rigorous than Catholic (he's a professor) so you may well be right about these being well-educated people. Being well-educated doesn't make you right, though, or stop you being a bully or discriminating. (Lost quite a bit of respect for our friend when intellectual snobbery won over outrage at child abuse, tbh.)

[tribpot]

Custardo - yes, I find the view of my friends unfathomable as well. These are perfectly rational people, obviously accepting of other faiths and no faith. Yet this change of the law - that cannot possibly affect them in any way, that rests on a clause in the Bible that goes along with a bunch of other instructions that no-one would want to claim as relevant today - somehow has them up in arms.

Why aren't they opposing the change of the law of succession? That must be incompatible with the Bible's teaching as well?

[edam]

btw, I just love the irony of a bunch of apparently celibate men thinking they get to make the rules on marriage, not only for members of their own club but for everyone in the whole country. Arrogant bastards.

[thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts]

I realise it is a radical thought but Christians do not all think the same thing about the issue of gay marriage. The Roman Catholic Church does not speak for all Christians any more than the Archbishop of Canterbury does.

This news story was around this week www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/01/10/dean-of-worcester-i-agree-with-allowing-equal-marriage-because-marriage-is-not-an-institution/ but hasn't made it to the BBC as far as I can see.

[RooneyMara]

Custy I was brought up Catholic and never understood any of it from the start. Any time I asked questions I was told to do the sacrament and worry about that later...

I stopped going to church shortly after being confirmed.

I agree the Catholic church is a terrible thing in many ways - but it doesn't mean I don't have any faith, like you I separate that from the people-ruled fripperies of organised religion.

Not much help I'm afraid but I don't consider myself Catholic and I don't consider anyone should need any sort of formal resignation or shite like that in order not to be 'owned' by them any more. My mother insists I'm still a catholic - it's just not true. I don't get all this.

and fwiw yanbu completely

[ThereGoesTheYear]

What a load if drama queens! Persecution? How ridiculous.
The only positive is that this was only signed by 1/4 of priests. I'm hoping that the other 3/4 are embarrassed by the whole thing.

Custy I'm not surprised that resigning seems like a big thing to do. Catholicism feels cultural as well as spiritual. And can it be changed from the inside given that so many people within the church think like you about the child abuse scandals and the sheer unkindness of the church's official line on homosexuality?

[edam]

drama queens is a very good term for them if my-mother's-friend-the-gay-priest is to be believed...

[Tortington]

i am going to give the resignation a big think. Not being able to have Eucharist last rites etc - needs some more thought

[edam]

You could join ANOther Christian church, perhaps?

[edam]

(didn't mean that to sound glib, btw, am sure you've thought of that.)

[Abra1d]

'Lost quite a bit of respect for our friend when intellectual snobbery won over outrage at child abuse, tbh.'

I doubt he'd have found fewer cover-ups in the Anglican church than in the RC. Events in the last year have shown that pretty well every institution in which there has been child abuse has tried to cover it up.

[edam]

Abra1d - true but the CofE hasn't engaged in mass denial and silencing of victims to anything like the same extent. What happened in both Churches is terrible but the RC hierarchy really did take it to extreme levels - and are still hiding abusers from the law.

[Abra1d]

I think things will change. Even Sister Wendy (remember her art programmes on BBC), who is about eighty-something, thinks that the Church's views will alter, but very slowly. She said this when she was a guest on Desert Island Discs just before Christmas.

[Abra1d]

Sorry, that last point was in relation to sexuality, not child abuse.

[sashh]

I'm a teacher.

If I work in an RC show I cannot ever become senior management. The priests are OK with this.

The schools are allowed to pick children because their parents attend church.

The sex discrimmination act was 1976 - they have managed to discriminate against women since then.

They will not allow divorcees to marry in church.

This is all fine as far as they are concerned, yet they think they are being persecuted.

[tribpot]

I would be more interested if they were able to sustain a freedom of speech argument. One would rather the English Defence League or the BNP went away permanently but they have the right (up to a point) to state their opinions. No-one is suggesting that Christians should not be allowed to continue to assert their beliefs in their own spaces (up to and including the preposterous ban on the CofE and CinW being allowed to decide for itself what it believes, which surely is persecution?) but this fixation on dogma is out of place in a plural society.

[Tortington]

i cant join another christian church, becuase - well, tbh, they are a bit happy clappy about the whole thing, i like bells n smells stuff - maybe the jews would have meif i just leave out the jesus thing.

i find my own thoughts ont he subject very intersting - i wan to resign - yet i can't, and thats just silly - its not like ive been to church in over a year - oh, but what if i change my mind? what if i get old and want to go to church, what if the church changes its mind

then do i have to get re-baptized? tiz a quandary - but the catholic church are a shower of amazing rubbish shite. they have a history of shiteness and continue to be shite.

[tribpot]

Well, I'm not going to pretend to understand why you would rate swinging incense about so highly :) (Although surely High Anglican or the Orthodox churches could provide the plainsong and bells and wotnot, also funny hats). But perhaps you should simply ask your priest outright what would be involved if you want to come back later.

[Abra1d]

' but the catholic church are a shower of amazing rubbish shite. they have a history of shiteness and continue to be shite.'

A quarter at least of the world's healthcare is provided by the RC church. In large areas of Africa, there is only the church doing looking after the sick. There are thousands of very humble men and women doing very unglamorous work that directly benefits the poor. Every time I am angered by the church I remind myself of this.

[bamboostalks]

Look, there is never going to be a Catholic gay marriage. End of. If that is something you are passionate about, then you are going to have to find another church. These people are acting according to their consciences, you must do the same.