Help me explain to my family...

[MrsWood]

Since I was born, it was put upon me that I must believe in God, Jesus etc. Had to go to church all the time, have been through confirmation, christening, even church wedding - all my parents and my family ever wanted. That was in Croatia, where majority of the nation is Roman Catholic... Anyway, came to the UK where there is more of a freedom in what you believe and even though I tried believing, I simply can't. To be honest, didn't really have any reason to believe - my childhood was crap, I was bullied in school for about 7-8 years, and basically too many things in my life went wrong - never had an easy ride for anything. And it was set in stone when I had two miscarriages before dd (incompetent cervix) - where was this guardian angel of mine? After all that I decided to be open minded and if I chose not to believe in anything, then so be it, my decision. My whole family frowns upon the fact I never christened our dd and that I am an embarasement to them... They also hate my gay friend as that's "not accepted and not normal" (makes me so angry!). All this never really bothered me, until now. We're moving to Croatia, and I know this will cause endless arguments between me and my family, I'm already getting a headache. I'm also quite insecure due to bullying and generally fall under my parents' thumb, and do what they decide for me (I'm 29 btw). My dh says I should ignore them, but I still worry. I want my choice to remain my choice whether they like it or not, and leave a window of opportunity for my kids to choose their own religion if they wish. I don't think it's my right to try and raise them as something I (don't) believe in. Please advise, and no offence to any religions and any believers. I accept people's choices and I feel they should accpet mine - why is this so difficult???

[PeachyClair]

ccPeople feel threatened when your views differ don't they? because religion is so essential, and becomes an absolute, it can cause major tension. It's bad enough being the only Humanist on a RE degree full of Christian types, I can only imagine what it must belike for you in Croatia.

It was many years ago, but my Mum and Dad were raised Christian (Mum Welsh methodist and Dad Salvation Army) and they too lost their faith after several late miscarriages, scarily also probably due to incompetant cervix. There were huge fights within the family, and I am sure they religion thing was to do with most of it. I can only say that mum stood her ground, and other people had to just accept it. Mum is far braver then me however and she wasn't in Coatia, I think that would take a brave person.

I personally would just take thing a step at a time, keeping true to yoursellves. And come on here for support when you need it!

good luck

[Rhubarb]

It is difficult. I was born and raised in a strict catholic household. My mother is a fierce catholic. When my sister fell pregnant by her boyfriend, it was a huge drama and crises and scandal, the same when my brother got his girlfriend pregnant, he was more or less forced into marrying her in the end. I've hated this side of religion, the way people manipulate it and use it. But I don't hate religion itself. I've doubted many many times, but sometimes I feel 'his' presence. It's difficult to explain, but at night when I cry out to him, scream sometimes, for him to answer for himself, to tell me why certain thing happen, to answer my questions, I always always get this reassuring voice in my head telling me to 'trust me' and I get a feeling of peace and calm.

I think your faith is very personal. The way some people choose to follow a religion has nothing to do with religion itself, it has everything to do with their need to 'fit in' to something, the need for security. It also allows them a handy cover for their own prejudices and hangups.

You have to be strong on this one and explain that whilst you respect them and their religion, you hope that they will respect your choice to live life the way you have chosen to. You have not cut the path off from catholicism for your children, but you are offering them alternate views so that when they are older, they themselves can choose which path to follow.

All you can do, is listen to them no matter how hard it seems. Try not to defend yourself, just listen and nod and say that you understand, but you have to do what you think is right. Half the battle is having them believe that they are at least being listened to and respected.

[MrsWood]

Thanks. I must say, I don't hate the religion, I just hate the stubbornes. Especially as the religion hasn't really moved on with times - like in respect to gay people, contraception etc. - really silly.
I also hate the fact everything is "meant to be" or has a "reason" behind it - like my miscarriages are "meant to be otherwise I wouldn't have had my dd" - wtf? I love my daughter to bits, but considering nothing was wrong with my previous babies, why on earth would God want them in exchange? I would have loved all my kids the same, and if I had my first baby, I wouldn't have known my dd as such - hard to explain, I hope you get what I mean. Silly explanation. A year or so ago one of my close cousins lost her husband suddenly. She was 30 and a widow with a small child. She also never had an easy life, and that relationship was never approved by her family... He was a very good man, she's lovely and their dd is brilliant. I feel for them every day as I can't even imagine how hard it must be. She's been a devoted believer and went to church, I'm not kidding, 2-3 times per week... So, why was that "meant to be" - why did she deserve such life? She told me they'd finally bought a new house after years of renting and were planning for a new baby... She now believes more than anything and is at church every day pretty much.
I get stick type "how can she still believe and her life is more tragic than yours?" I wonder that myself, but I really find it hard to "forgive" God for my life being such a misery. If we all have purpose on this earth, what the hell would be mine considering? I'm sure I'm going to hell after starting this thread LOL

[nearlythree]

MrsWood, your posts make me really sad. I really hate it when people claim that God intends suffering and that it's all part of a 'plan'. I can't claim to know a great deal about God but what I do know is that everything that comes from him/her is good, and filled with love. The terrible things that happen are just that - terrible random things that cause so much pain. When such things happen you find God in the kindness and selflessness of others. I don't know what your family believe in, but it's a distortion of any religion and I don't see God in any of their actions. There are movements within Christianity and other religions that have moved on and accept gay people etc. and maybe you can find one in Croatia who can give you some info to pass on to your family. Keep strong.

[MrsWood]

nearlythree, unfortunately, this is what most of Roman Catholics (at least in Croatia) believe - everything is "meant to be" - loss of a child, husband, tragic goings on in the world and so on. I just can't believe that if God existed that he/she would allow such tragedies - but that's just me, and my opinion. This gay thing may have changed in some religious communities but not there - Vatican is still very disapproving and RCs in Croatia are the major followers of Pope and the way they dictate life of a Christian should be. I consider myself to be a very kind loving person who thinks of everyone else before herself - and I still suffered greatly through life - my parents think I will be "punished" for my non believing - I'm very frustrated that they don't listen to me when I say that religion shouldn't be taken to such lenghts to cause arguments and tension in the family, hence our continues problems - they're totally against me on this and will no doubt look at our dd as "not pure" or whatever they usually say being a non christian is. As someone mentioned here on mumsnet - religion should provide comfort and feel of being part of something, not punishing everyone who is a non believer - my parents will never understand where I come from. They already drawn their conclusion - my dh apparently made me dislike God... I feel I should just say what I want to say, but being the way I am, I still don't want to hurt anyone's feeling - in the process being a complete mug and letting myself be manipulated.

[nearlythree]

It's not just an Rc belief, MrsWood, a lot of Christians believe this tosh. I know you don't want to hurt your family but they are hurting you, and maybe you should point out to them that the reason you no longer believe is that the god they have presented you with is a monster.

[Rhubarb]

But that's their security, that's what they hang on to. It's nothing to do with religion really, it's how they cope, if you take that away from them then they are left with nothing.

I am still a catholic yet I do believe that we are responsible for our own lives and people are responsible for their actions. You cannot ask how God let a child die, he didn't, nature is left to its own devices, he can't intervene and save us all when the going gets tough, he gave us all free will which means he cannot interfere. But I know this is a contradiction of some religious thought.

You have to respect your families thoughts on this no matter how hard it is, try to understand why they think like this. Then as I said before, nod politely, listen and sympathise, but stand your ground. It doesn't have to create a lot of tension between you and your family, you can live with them in harmony despite your differences, it just means accepting your differences, and that goes for you as well as them. Don't try converting them into your way of thinking, that'll just enrage them further.

[nearlythree]

Rhubarb, you are far more tolerant that me! I just can't think of anything sadder than when someone has any chance of faith destroyed by a superstitious church (not necessarily RC) peddling a tyrannical god. At least you have managed to hang onto the reality of God in your life.

[Rhubarb]

It's not the church that I blame. It's the people. They use the church for their own insecurities. My mother believes in all that fate shit, I got a degree because God wanted me to apparently, nothing to do with the hard work I put into it! I feel pity for these people who cannot take responsibility for their own lives, who cannot think for themselves. If you look at it that way, it makes it easier for you to be tolerant of them.
They need to hang on to what they believe in, and who are we to take away their support structure? For some people, it's all they have and it's how they cope with what life throws at them.

[MrsWood]

Rhubab - exactly - when I had my dd after 2 mcs my parents explanation for it was that "God's work" made it happen etc. - nothing to do with the consultant who spent 2 hrs saving me from another mc and putting the cervical stitch apparently. LOL... I never wanted them to convert from their beliefs to my non beliefs but they seem to work hard trying to do the very same with me and my family. I really have to stand up to them and just try and not get worked up when they bring faith into conversations.

[nearlythree]

Rhubarb, I do pity people who believe these things but I still get angry too. I don't know that it does bring comfort either, superstition tends to bring with it paranoia - do I believe enough? Am I good enough? Have I ticked all the right boxes this week? Should I have had that extra glass of wine? Is my lipstick too bright? and so on. And it must be pretty distressing for MrsWood's family to think that their loved ones are bound for hell (as if such a place even exists) because that is what they have been led to believe.

I'm afraid I do blame the churches, not just RC but all denominations, and not just the fundamentalists. The Christian message seems to have gone from being Jesus teaching us how to live to the church teaching us how to die. For much of Christian history we've all been far more preoccupied with personal salvation rather than bringing about God's justice in the world here and now. For as long as the church (again, any denomination) keeps on with its carrot-and-stick, punishment-and-reward version of faith then people will continue to live in distress and fear rather than with the hope that comes with the presence of Christ in their lives. Rather than concentrating on my soul, my salvation, wouldn't it be great if Christians worked to bring God's kingdom into this world?

MrsWood, it's obvious that Rhubarb has personal experience of this and am sure she is right when she says that the best thing is to try and respect where they are coming from and give them the space to express their views. Please keep strong and don't get too distressed. Hope all goes well with you.