Just curious - how many muslims are on mumsnet?

(998 Posts)
Galvanise Sat 01-Dec-12 00:21:53

Hello/Salaam,

I know mumsnet has a wide and diverse population and I tend to recognise some MN usernames as regulars. Just intrigued to know how big/small a community it may be.

Of course, I respect that there may be those who do not wish to even identify themselves for various reasons - which is fine too.

I am not asking for 'religiousness' levels or any vital stats! Nor is this a muslim-only thread or an 'no non-muslims' thread.
If you really wish to tell me that you are not a muslim, that is fine too smile

<Waves enthusiastically to all muslims and non-muslims> smile

WaynettaSlobsLover Thu 10-Jan-13 22:50:38

How lovely Saudi is hmm I will be going there for my Hajj inshallah and Umrah, but will never in a billion years wish to make hijrah there. Corruption, greed, extremism and misogyny at its worst.

littleducks Thu 10-Jan-13 23:42:04

I am not recommending to anyone not to have a civil marriage and I think that everyone should be aware of the differences.

For me personally, with full knowledge of the consequences, the best choice was not to. I was married young and I did want to be able to exit relatively simply if I needed to.

My lifestyle is different in a couple of ways. For instance we rent and both names our on the tenancy agreements, if dh tried to kick me out I would have the same legal recourse to return as if we were married. We have financial arragements and wills in case one or both of us dies etc.

You hear all the time about on her about men not paying child support etc. if he was to ignore his islamic duties to support his children he would be far more likely to ignore his legal duties!

We dont have a joint account and never will. Although we do internet transfers and share money day to day, if ever something happened I want to be financially seperate, it sounds awful but I want to maintain the independence to have a 'running away fund.' Dh could never walk out and clear out our accounts!

Obviously my situation is different from women who don't work, didn't know to request a large enough mahr to protect themselves, are reliant on their dh's income or are immigrants and so don't have family here to support them etc.

fuzzywuzzy Thu 10-Jan-13 23:53:46

I got spousal maintenance as its repaying money ex stole from me.

Basically my legal divorce is giving me what I am Islamically entitled too, well not everything but I'm not asking for lots, I figure he can answer for his actions later.
Islamically I'm entitled to a lot more financially then I asked for in the courts.

Had I not been legally married my children and I would be financially in deep trouble.

I'd always get any marriage legally done in future and would want the same for my children, it ensures one is able to obtain ones legal rights in the event of death or divorce.

I've heard of pretty horrendous things happening to women who've not married legally.

nailak Thu 10-Jan-13 23:57:50

i am sure you have read of horrendous things happening to those who have married legally as well!! I certainly have!

fuzzywuzzy Fri 11-Jan-13 00:09:23

Legal marriages give you financial security if the worst happens.

I've not heard awful things about women divorcing they have legal back up to get what they and their children are owed.

In an Islamic country if my nikah was a legal and binding contract I would be fine, women have a lot of rights they'd have legal recourse to get what is their right thro the courts Islamically ( well that's the theory).

Having been thro the worst case scenario, I personally would not want it for myself.

Besides isn't the nikah contract supposed to be just that, a legally binding contract stipulating the conditions of marriage?

If I ever marry, I'll have my nikah contract drawn up as a pre-nup. So it is recognised as legally binding here too.

nailak Fri 11-Jan-13 00:15:19

i know women who were legally married and dont get a penny from their ex husbands, women who were legally married and had to run away from their husbands and live in b and bs with their kids and stuff, and leave all their stuff behind. Being legally married did not help them.

In fact it hindered them in some cases. When they go to the bank and say my husband has intercepted my post and taken my card and pin, i didnt even know he ordered it through online banking, please stop the online banking etc, they dont take it seriously and carry on the online banking, say its their fault for giving out the pin and dont treat it as fraud as it is their husband,

financial abuse happens within legally registered marriages. If this is occuring the man doesnt suddenly stop being financially abusive when the marriage ends. Men like this would rather leave work and work illegally cash in hand and stuff then give their wives money.

fuzzywuzzy Fri 11-Jan-13 07:24:16

Nailak, if you're a joint signatory on a bank account the banks regard it the same, your husband can run up thousans in over drafts and debts and you are jointly liable.
I had my joint bank accounts frozen.

Never ever give out your pin to anyone, if you want someone to be able to access your bank account have them on your account as a second card holder, altho I'd check first to ensure you could cancel it if you so chose later on.

The most heart breaking story I heard was a woman asking me what she was entitled to as her husband turned her and her children out and her name wasn't on the property they lived in.
I told her to get legal advice.

It's personal to me, I would not live under marital conditions with a man in a country where my marriage was not legally recognised.

I know where it works very well, a friend is a second wife, and has her own property and life, her husband comes and goes and she likes it that way. He has no claims over her and her finances. Altho he did say in the event of a divorce he would take the child they have together.
I doubt very much he would have a leg to stand on to do that as she is the main carer.

crescentmoon Fri 11-Jan-13 09:02:56

i think ducks in your case you both have equal input into and out of the marriage.

Obviously my situation is different from women who don't work, didn't know to request a large enough mahr to protect themselves, are reliant on their dh's income or are immigrants and so don't have family here to support them etc.

tbh had i decided things with DH on my own i probably would not have, but it was my parents who insisted and whilst the legal side wasnt on the nikah contract it was an understanding between us all. my dad especially, setting aside all the other crap we've been through, was very firm on sorting things out for me and my sisters when we got married. saved us looking grasping or cynical! we all had relatively large mahrs, gold - that was more something my mum insisted on - and got married legally. DH was so afraid of my dad back then that it was really for his sake rather than my own lol.

recently though a couple i had really looked upto got divorced and i was unsettled by it more than i let on to DH or anybody else. id thought they were rock solid and had tried to emulate them. it also made me realise how vulnerable i was having been a trailing spouse and giving up work after dc2. the current account is in DHs name which is where his salary and all bills and payments go through but the savings are all in my name which i wanted as my own guarantee of security and DH to be as vulnerable. we have far more in savings than in the current account - actually enough for a 20% deposit on a normal mortgage but DH and i still havent bought as we are trying to save for a sharia compliant mortgage - which will probably take another 8-10 years unless i start working too. for that we've saved fanatically some years - when DH gets paid i usually pay straight into 'committee' so that we dont spend it and its an outgoing. it takes a long time and when we get our big lump sum i pay it straight into the savings account and hold it there.

alot of couples we know our age have the same problem as us, have good household incomes yet still renting because they dont want to take the conventional mortgage and it is frustrating. its another reason i want to work this year too to speed things along too.

CoteDAzur Fri 11-Jan-13 09:59:52

What do you think is the difference between a traditional mortgage and a sharia-compliant one?

I know that one is based on interest and the other isn't, but I used to work in finance and it is a well-known thing that the "equity payments" of the sharia-compliant mortgages are trail very closely the interest payments of traditional mortgages. My understanding is that they are actually pretty much the same thing, and it is just the marketing (i.e. what they tell the customer) that is different.

I'm happy to be corrected, though, as it's not a subject I've looked into in the past 10 years.

WaynettaSlobsLover Fri 11-Jan-13 10:14:50

That's the reason me and dh decided not to get a shariah compliant mortgage. After doing our research it seems as if its basically the same thing..just sounds different. As my family in particular own a lot of property as do dh's in his native country, we figured we wil always have a roof over our heads whatever happens lol but that we didn't want to enter a 'grey' area where supposed Islamic mortgages are the answer. Would appreciate more info from crescent if possible in case ive also missed something

nailak Fri 11-Jan-13 11:25:15

fuzzy in the situation i was talking about it was not a joint bank account. the husband intercepted her post to get online banking details and ordered new card and pin and intercepted them, then put her account in to overdraft. The bank said there is nothing they can do and she should have protected her pin basically. I went with her a few times. the lawyer that womens aid gave said same thing. they were legally married. she still ended up in a bed and breakfast with her 3 kids when she left him.
she had no money to access to her paperwork, didnt even know her ni number, her husband had all her documents and she had to pay for b and b as she had no proof of identity etc, we had to collect money for her and do shopping for her and stuff.

HardlyEverHoovers Fri 11-Jan-13 13:02:38

Juma Mabarek everyone.
We had our Islamic marriage contract stamped by an official authority in the country where we got married, which wasn't an Islamic country but the Muslims there were organised enough to have some kind of system.
We also had a civil marriage there, which is recognised here. We thought it was OK to have my parents as witnesses, who were visiting at the time. It wasn't, so my husband literally went outside and got 2 people of the street!

Well, all the talk about Turkey has been fascinating, and I finally have something to add, from a site I was on which contained lots of coffee trivia:

"In the 16th century, Turkish women could divorce their husbands if the man failed to keep his family's pot filled with coffee"

Now I would really like that law, as I have on occasion sent my husband to the opposite side of the city to pick up the particular type of coffee that they only sell in one small Arab shop!

I was thinking as this thread has gone through so many mutations, maybe it would be nice to have a general Muslim prayer and chat thread, like the Christian ones I've seen? Non-Muslims welcome as well of course.

WaynettaSlobsLover Fri 11-Jan-13 15:00:09

Jummah Mubarak ladies smile

crescentmoon Fri 11-Jan-13 15:35:09

tbh the different between sharia and non sharia mortgages are NOT price - the bank still makes a hefty profit from the whole thing. but the difference is on what the profit is made from - the sharia compliant mortgage the bank buys the house and then SELLS it to you so their profit is made on the house, not profit made on lending you the money to buy the house. it makes them share the risk so thats why the rules are more stringent.

i have a very dear friend, more knowledgeable and religious than me in many ways - she thinks music is haram whereas i think music is halal and wears the abayah as an obligation - who follows the same opinion as you waynette. in fact her husband and her have recently bought their first home through a conventional mortgage. i know the fatawa they referred to and iv read the explanation but DH and I werent convinced and alhamdullillah we just decided to keep persevering. its personal and based on an individual weighing up the different opinions - within mainstream islam theres room for both views but i felt in my heart it was the stronger opinion to wait and save more.

tbh from my familys own personal experiences i distrust money in property - it can be confiscated and stolen very easily. so for me i prefer to have large savings so in case something happens we can rspond quickly. DH sees wealth in property and land because of his family background so he is more anxious that we buy a house and start investing in property etc. so stalling kinda suits me too!

nailak Fri 11-Jan-13 17:02:22

hardly I thought this was a general Muslim chat thread? lol

WaynettaSlobsLover Fri 11-Jan-13 18:22:03

Yeah but it's a good idea to have non Muslims too as its part of giving dawah and getting general info about islam. Crescent that was interesting to hear about your friend. I think we all have different ideas on things though don't we and its all about your niyyaa too

CoteDAzur Fri 11-Jan-13 19:19:57

I'm curious - why do you all use so many words in Arabic?

crescentmoon Fri 11-Jan-13 19:21:50

what do you think about it cote is it offputting?

crescentmoon Fri 11-Jan-13 19:25:05

naila mashaallah that you work with sisters in trouble is it through solace iv seen you mention them on other threads.

HardlyEverHoovers Fri 11-Jan-13 19:36:37

wink nailak I thought we should make it official!

I think the Arabic words are common phrases that even non-Arabic speakers come to know through being Muslim because they are so often used, perhaps they don't have entirely accurate English translations. I think Muslim then forget that they are actually not English words and then sprinkle liberally!
A wierd thing is when you end up using English grammar rules with Arabic words, e.g. masjid (mosque) plural would be masajid (mosques), but it is not uncommon to hear 'masjids' instead.

I wanted to comment on the mortgage theme and provide a link. I personally would not touch a normal mortgage with a barge pole, I don't judge others who do, but it is a very strong conviction I have. The hadiths regarding it are not pleasant reading etori.tripod.com/on-interest.html

HardlyEverHoovers Fri 11-Jan-13 19:43:47

We rent as cannot currently afford an Islamic mortgage, and this is not really a big problem. We hope one day to be able to get a mortgage with these people

www.ansarfinance.com

An oversimplified explanation of how they work is:
you pay £10 a month to them as sadaqa (charity), you don't get this back, but this makes you a member of their organisation. When you have been a member for 1 year you can apply for a loan or a mortgage. They set up specifically to allow Muslims to borrow money without having to take unlawful means, and are highly commended by scholars.
We had a loan from them, and it was so nice to deal with a small organisation, it was a very personal and flexible service.

In regards to where to invest, does anyone know much about investing in gold? I knew a little about it through the Islamic movement called the murabitun, they believe paper money to be unlawful and say we should all trade in gold. I suspect they may be right but I can't see how we could do it.
I then heard an interesting programme on radio 4 about investing in gold, apparently a lot more people are doing that because of the risk of financial collapse and the devaluing of paper money, as gold would retain it's value. If you are not comfortable burying gold bars in your back garden and planting doffodils to mark the spot, you can get a third party to store the gold for you.

crescentmoon Fri 11-Jan-13 20:02:17

just checked out ansar finance hardly it sounds to good to be true. tell me how it works - where do they get their financing from? and how much did you pay back? why have i not heard of them before? iv heard of some halal car finance companies but not other kinds of finance eg loans.

iv been saving money with 'committee's for over 10 years now ever since i had my first part time job. sometimes it was just 50 a month sometimes 200 a month, before dc2 we used to save 1000 every month with committee but thats steadily dropped to about 600 a month now. its a great way to save money with other muslims and each month one person takes the lump sum - either for savings or to buy something eg car outright. we always pay straight into savings though iv sometimes joined little ones for myself - 50 a month - which when they get paid out i keep the money separately.

you need to have alot of trust in your fellow man though. i must admit iv never done one thats had paperwork and the large committees DH and i would join we didnt even know more than 1 other person in the group - of 20 people each month! but we are just assured that everyone is going to keep to the schedule and the payments without dropping out because everyone is aware of Allah even if not of each other. my friends husband used to earn huge amounts and pay 2500 every month into a 'committee' with other brothers but we didnt even think about it. and each month someone in that group used to walk away with £25000 - interest free but it was only 10 brothers. it comes down to which is more risky riba or trust?

fuzzywuzzy Fri 11-Jan-13 20:02:27

Nailak, that's shocking, the banks will try and get away with what they can.

There is no way that poor woman should have been held liable for the fraud on her account, did she report it immediately on discovery and demand all access be stopped and report it to the police?

The bank will only refuse to refund the money if she has known about it and let it happen. Otherwise according to my experience they do refund the fraudulent transactions and investigate the fraud, you have to report it to the police tho and give the bank a crime reference number.

I was legally married for over a decade, it didn't give ex automatic rights to my personal bank account which did not have his name on it. He tried tho, and I had all details immediately changed and kept a very close eye on my account for a while.

Also my experience of legal aid solicitors is not great, so unless your friend had discovered for herself how to deal with the bank fraud I'm sure her solictor would have re-iterated exactly what the bank said, unless she consulted a solicitor specialising in bank fraud.

fuzzywuzzy Fri 11-Jan-13 20:07:16

Hardly that finance company looks promising

nailak Fri 11-Jan-13 20:08:21

the woman didnt go anywhere without her husband, he used to lock her in and stuff, and unplug the phone and take it with him to work. so she didnt really have the opportunity to do all that.

her solicitor is rubbish.

i use arabic words because i just say what i think, sometimes arabic words describe concepts better, like i could say sabr or i could day patient perserverance, but look i cannot even spell perserverance!! so much easier to just say sabr. lol

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