Help needed - petition to support nil cap on lap dancing in Bristol

(61 Posts)
JessInAvalon Thu 19-Sep-13 22:11:03

Hi all
I've not been on here for a while but now we really need your help in Bristol!

Someone has set up a petition calling for a nil cap on lap dancing clubs as has been done in Swansea.

We have a good number of signatures but we really need more.

It takes less than a minute to sign and you don't need to live in Bristol to object to them.

If you live in Bristol, it would be great if you could share this with your networks on Facebook/Twitter etc.

epetitions.bristol.gov.uk/epetition_core/community/petition/2372

Thanks all
JessInAvalon

libertarianj Fri 20-Sep-13 00:01:55

Why? How is it a feminist issue trying to make other women redundant? That's not feminism sad

Check out this article regarding a total bullshit decision in Chester, where a club of 9 years has just lost it's license, for some pathetically lame reason:
www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/news/chester-cheshire-news/lap-dancing-tour-after-platinum-6060554

Please take some time to read the comments on there, there's a great comments (best rated) from a dancer who challenges and rips apart Ms Lomas's (club objector in the article) feminist credentials.

scallopsrgreat Fri 20-Sep-13 00:19:54

Jess I signed this a couple of weeks ago and posted on Twitter. Will retweet now for you.

ModeratelyObvious Fri 20-Sep-13 00:38:38

I didn't think lapdancers had employment contracts, lib.

contactmoney Fri 20-Sep-13 00:49:02

I don't understand how "fight for equality" means making women lose their jobs just because they choose to work in an industry feminists don't like.

MabelFigworthy Fri 20-Sep-13 01:01:51

Oh, what an odd coincidence... DH was just telling me that he had to listen to some colleagues bemoaning the fact that George Ferguson wants to shut down the lap dancing clubs. Apparently there have been some incidents involving 'touching'. hmm

MabelFigworthy Fri 20-Sep-13 01:03:21

confused That's the second time tonight that it's double posted me... That's never happened before! Weird!

contactmoney Fri 20-Sep-13 01:04:20

If someone "touched" a barmaid at a pub would that be justification to ban all pubs?

FloraFox Fri 20-Sep-13 01:40:16

Oh look, here's lib to tell us what feminism is. Thank fuck for that. Rest easy ladies.

I wonder if the clubs are closed down, will the clubs begin their redundancy consultations?

contactmoney Fri 20-Sep-13 01:44:45

I wonder if the feminists who got the clubs closed down will provide money or alternative employment for the women who lost their jobs?

FloraFox Fri 20-Sep-13 01:50:09

I wonder if the anti-smoking campaigners provided money or alternative employment for the people in cigarette factories who lost their jobs?

WhentheRed Fri 20-Sep-13 03:05:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DropYourSword Fri 20-Sep-13 03:49:43

Erm, cigarette factories still exist!

contactmoney Fri 20-Sep-13 04:33:42

Cigarette factories still exist, and aren't at any risk of being banned and closed in the near future.

FloraFox Fri 20-Sep-13 05:02:02

^
| | |

Queue here if you are incapable of understanding analogy.

DropYourSword Fri 20-Sep-13 06:18:34

In the most basic of terms an analogy is making a comparison to show a similarity. And therefore we are absolutely correct when we state that actually they aren't similar outcomes at all.

Is there a queue for people making spurious arguments?

FloraFox Fri 20-Sep-13 06:40:40

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-355705/530-jobs-smoke-cigarette-factory.html

"BAT said sales in Ireland had been hit by tax increases on cigarettes as well as the ban on smoking in public places."

DropYourSword Fri 20-Sep-13 06:48:12

You're really quoting Daily Mail?
hmm

FloraFox Fri 20-Sep-13 06:51:58

You think they made it up?

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/40-cigarette-factory-jobs-go-to-poland-29286141.html

Mr Paisley said 1,000 jobs were still secure at the site, but claimed "wreckless Government policies such as plain packaging" would not help employment prospects.

FloraFox Fri 20-Sep-13 06:56:13

www.thefreelibrary.com/Imperial+Tobacco+planning+big+job+cuts+across+Europe%3B+FACTORY...-a0180336492

newsinfo.inquirer.net/310313/tobacco-farmers-factory-workers-vendors-rally-against-sin-tax-bill

“This sin tax will increase the price of tobacco products, thus creating a domino effect on all those involved in the trade,” Battaler said. He also noted that some cigarette-factory workers might lose their jobs, tobacco farmers might earn less than what they are presently earning and street vendors will lose a chance to earn.

MrsClown Fri 20-Sep-13 12:14:39

Signed.

SpottedDickandCustard Fri 20-Sep-13 12:21:45

From the article about the closure of the club in Chester:

the loss of the licence will cost more than 40 jobs. The club had operated for eight years with no problems, no objections from police or other authorities plus no objections from its immediate neighbours

How can that be a good decision?

sicilianbuttercup Fri 20-Sep-13 12:27:12

Signed.

libertarianj Fri 20-Sep-13 12:35:39

Oh look, here's lib to tell us what feminism is. Thank fuck for that. Rest easy ladies.

Well maybe you should start acting like feminists then wink

I wonder if the anti-smoking campaigners provided money or alternative employment for the people in cigarette factories who lost their jobs?

oh and the do-gooding health police can do one too!grin

libertarianj Fri 20-Sep-13 12:45:39

The club in Chester should take it to a judicial review. I notice there is Slug and Lettuce bar located directly below it and night clubs further down the street. How can it be ok to have bars/ clubs in the same vicinity but single out the lap dancing club. Surely that is a moral decision which they are not allowed to make.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 20-Sep-13 12:58:42

I think questioning a culture which portrays women as sexual playthings for men is very relevant to feminism.

slug Fri 20-Sep-13 13:14:06

And I think questioning the culture that consistently pays women less than men so, for some, there is no option but to participate in a business that portrays women as playthings for these very men is very relevant to feminism.

lib I think you and your mates should club together, buy an island and create the democratic republic of Fuck You I Like To Look At Boobs I Don't Care About The Effect Upon You and Your Daughters Because I Believe in My Freedom To Look At Boobs So Fuck You

libertarianj Fri 20-Sep-13 14:17:51

ooh little bit harsh there Buffy, not very reasonable today are we?smile
why don't you get yourself a nice cool Hoegarraden. wine It is Friday after all

Did you bother to read the comments to the article i linked? So do you have a nice little island lined up for the dancers too? So much for living in a tolerant society hmm

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 20-Sep-13 14:22:58

Lib, it's truly heartwarming to witness your concern over women in the sex industry. You're all heart. Looking out for them like that - with no ulterior motives whatsoever.

No, I am not feeling very reasonable today. Even those who normally inhabit the cool oasis of reasonableness in which I prefer to exist have our off days.

But as far as I can tell, that's pretty much your viewpoint, no? That whatever arguments we might put forward as to the harm to women overall that is perpetuated by this type of business, you believe freedom to behave as one wishes is more important.

Except your island is "the World" and you insist that we all must live there under these terms.

JessInAvalon Fri 20-Sep-13 14:25:39

Hi
Thanks to all those who have signed. Only two more to get to 300 signatures.

To the person who asked the question about Temptations-yes, they were fined nearly £20,000 for breaching their licence. I will post the article on it when I get home tonight.

To those who have shared via Twitter etc, really appreciate that-thank you.

PS in answer to the jobs question, the places don't have to shut down. They just can't offer sex entertainment anymore. They will still have an alcohol licence. The women pay to work there and are self-employed with no rights (see Quashie vs Stringfellow in which she claimed unfair dismissal and lost because she was deemed to have no rights). Generally those who are in secure employment are the bar and security staff.

WhentheRed Fri 20-Sep-13 14:59:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JessInAvalon Fri 20-Sep-13 18:22:45

Thank you WhentheRed.

JessInAvalon Fri 20-Sep-13 20:12:20

As promised, here is the link to the article on Temptations in Bristol.

The police report behind the case was handed out by mistake at a council hearing. It did not make pretty reading!

m.thisisbristol.co.uk/story.html?aid=19690487

I signed it last week. I don't want to live in a city where the economy is part based on the objectification of women.

JessInAvalon Sat 21-Sep-13 09:34:17

Thanks QueenofWhatever. Me neither. In Bristol, one is opposite the city's main theatre in town which I think sends out the completely wrong message. Go lap dancing-as acceptable as going to see a west end musical!

jojoanna Sat 21-Sep-13 09:35:34

signed

Bunnylion Sat 21-Sep-13 10:19:35

Signed.

In my teens and early 20s a lot of men presumed that I was sexually available because I was an attractive young woman with a smile. This included fellow students, bosses, taxi drivers, men on public transport and strangers who I encountered walking down my street at night time. Their confusion and embarrassment when rejected was often met with aggression, insults or violence.

I don't want the next generation of women to have to deal with that and all the utterly depressing shit that comes with it.

Strip clubs are one of many elements of society that perpetuate the notion of entitlement to a woman's body. Shutting down these places would be a positive step towards changing the status of women in society and hopefully make life a little bit better for us all.

JessInAvalon Sat 21-Sep-13 11:19:49

Agreed Bunnylion. I've posted the petition and information about upcoming hearings at the council for lap dancing clubs on the university feminist society page. Got lots of pro sex industry responses which shocked me. I had thought the younger generation would have been more concerned.

If anyone is on Twitter could they tweet the link to Mumsnet Bristol? I have a locked account but did unlock it so I could ask them to tweet it but they didn't.

Thanks!

Leverette Sun 22-Sep-13 11:30:43

Signed.

CaptChaos Sun 22-Sep-13 19:10:50

Signed.

MoonlightPicnic Sun 22-Sep-13 21:55:15

I'd say that the mixture of frustrated male aggression and scantily dressed young girls, both against a back ground of excessive alcohol consumption at your local nightclub is more of a recipe for trouble then a lap dancing club could ever be.

libertarianj Mon 23-Sep-13 13:47:29

Agreed Bunnylion. I've posted the petition and information about upcoming hearings at the council for lap dancing clubs on the university feminist society page. Got lots of pro sex industry responses which shocked me. I had thought the younger generation would have been more concerned.

Why did it shock you that some feminists believe in freedom of choice and that women should be able to do whatever career they want to , even if it involves striptease? Why make that assumption?

Probably because we assume that most feminists are wised up enough about feminist analysis not to think of lap dancing as a choice that is consequence free for other women.

JessInAvalon Mon 23-Sep-13 21:32:10

Hi all
Just wanted to let Bristol feminists know that the hearing for Urban Tiger (the lap dancing club opposite the Hippodrome) is being held on Monday, 30th September at 10.30am. If anyone wants to come along and sit in the public gallery, that would be really helpful. We were told once by a leading licensing barrister who advised Object (and who now acts for the clubs) that the biggest factor in getting licences refused is the number of people in the public gallery.

There will be a number of people there but all support would be really welcome.

If anyone wants to get in touch to arrange meeting up beforehand, please DM me.

Thanks!
JIA

JessInAvalon Mon 23-Sep-13 21:35:46

It's in City Hall, by the way!

JessInAvalon Mon 23-Sep-13 21:37:30

And huge thanks to all those who have signed and shared the petition - much appreciated!

libertarianj Tue 24-Sep-13 13:05:48

Probably because we assume that most feminists are wised up enough about feminist analysis not to think of lap dancing as a choice that is consequence free for other women. and trying to ban lap dancing clubs isn't exactly consequence free for other women either

Not, it has the very unfortunate consequence that eventually, society might stop valuing women primarily as sex objects presented for male consumption.

Unless you mean that we should be more concerned about the income of a very small number of women who will need to seek alternative employment than about the life chances of 51% of the country's population?

If you are so concerned about women losing their livelihood, why aren't you engaged in protesting about public sector cuts? They affect a great many more women.

because you just want to be free to look at boobies if you want to

*no

emcwill74 Tue 24-Sep-13 14:32:51

Anyone else still LOLing about the man who only posts on MN to argue for more bare ladeez telling Flora to act more like a feminist?

<wipes tears from eyes>

More bare ladeez iz the menz rights as free citizenz

FloraFox Tue 24-Sep-13 18:50:08

emc I have to defer to the fact that lib knows more about feminism than me. After all he has read the complete works of some random person claiming to be a stripper and a feminist posted BTL on a local newspaper. And boobz. That's me told.

ModeratelyObvious Tue 24-Sep-13 22:07:27

Never mind Flora, study the ramblings works of inwino and one day you might be a Proper Feminist.

libertarianj Wed 25-Sep-13 23:03:50

Not, it has the very unfortunate consequence that eventually, society might stop valuing women primarily as sex objects presented for male consumption.

and do you have any evidence that links lap dancing clubs (page 3 last time) to people valuing women as sex objects? We've been over this numerous times now.

Unless you mean that we should be more concerned about the income of a very small number of women who will need to seek alternative employment than about the life chances of 51% of the country's population?

but the general population of women don't have a problem with lap dancing clubs, which is evident by the tiny number of objections that they actually receive. Also a fair percentage of customers are female too. Yet again you try and speak for all women hmm

Also i thought you guys were against banning things as I was reminded on numerous occasions on the page 3 thread. You were like 'no we are not calling for a ban, just to kindly ask the editor to re-consider it' So for consistency and in the same style, shouldn't you also be asking the dancers to kindly not remove their clothes? rather than pushing for a nil cap?............. or maybe you were actually fibbing on the page 3 thread?

If you are so concerned about women losing their livelihood, why aren't you engaged in protesting about public sector cuts? They affect a great many more women.

Good point, hadn't thought of that. Not only would it effect the livelihoods of the dancers/ bar staff/ management/ security etc it could also effect the councils licensing officers jobs too. Well for starters they would lose the combined annual SEV fees paid by the clubs. There wouldn't be as much admin or enforcement of regulations to be carried out, or the need for any committee meetings as there would be no re-newels if the clubs were all closed down.

libertarianj Wed 25-Sep-13 23:14:55

emc I have to defer to the fact that lib knows more about feminism than me. After all he has read the complete works of some random person claiming to be a stripper and a feminist posted BTL on a local newspaper. And boobz. That's me told.

have you read any of Brooke's books yet? Or what about any of these?:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 25-Sep-13 23:20:38

You're so happy for venues to make money by sexually objectifying women aren't you lib?

Never mind the rest of the women in society affected by women being portrayed as sexual objects to be bought by men. And the occasional 'cool' woman - who you will grasp onto as proof that it is all right by most women hmm

FloraFox Thu 26-Sep-13 06:11:28

<yawn> read all that shit in the 90s. New bollocks then. Old bollocks now.

When I see you've posted lib I just see

blah, blah, blah, scientific evidence?

blah, blah, blah, you don't speak for all women!

blah, blah, blah, you just want to ban everything fun!

blah, blah, blah, you will turn us into a feminist police state!

blah, blah, blah, I want the liberty look at boobies, dammit!

Why not try actually engaging with the content of what people say for a change? Actually consider their points rather than spouting your own brand of rhetorical dogma.

Oh, and I've never pretended to speak for all women or even the majority of them. Unlike your good self it seems.

emcwill74 Thu 26-Sep-13 10:48:42

Ha ha! Buffy I was literally just about to say that as soon as I see a post by lib all I read is the whining of an adolescent saying 'but I like looking at boobies and minge', then saw your post.

Lib when we do give evidence for a culture of objectification of women you just ignore it, like the time I posted a list of comments on the Star Page 3 web page and you tried to claim, totally ridiculously, that they were posted by feminists! Jeez! Great argument there! Even a video you posted of a woman talking about how she doesn't believe in objectification had, as one of its first comments, some bloke blethering on about how he loved her boobs. Know what that is? It's objectification. It's a man not engaging with what she is saying but just seeing has a pair of tits to judge whether he likes them or not. There is no need to provide 'evidence' for strip clubs perpetuating this because that is what they are. Serving up women as bits of meat for men who want to see some tits and arse. That's not the same as physical attraction. It's going to a club to see some flesh. Whatever flesh they happen to have laid on for you that night. (And before you say it, no I'm not denying that what the dancers do is very skilled, but that isn't why the punters go. Or the same punters would be going to gym displays etc to see athleticism by men and women that doesn't involve the woman being naked.)

Nobody is trying to speak for all women. Whether all women agree or not doesn't change what is going on. Not everyone believes the world is more than 5,000 years old. So when I say it is I am not speaking for creationists. Doesn't mean it isn't because we don't all agree.

As for banning things. No we don't need to be consistent, we can look at things on a case-by-case basis. Frankly I wouldn't be too upset if Page 3 were banned, some on here will feel the same and some not. But the NMP3 petition is not asking for that, and the campaigners who set it up are not asking for that. No one is lying. I am one signatory on a petition of 119,000+. I would rather Dinsmore agreed to remove it than it were banned. This isn't at all relevant to what is being discussed on this thread anyway.

So Buffy asks why you are not out campaigning at public service cuts that will negatively affect women if you are SO concerned for women's welfare. You reply with what I assume is sarcasm 'I hadn't thought of that', but then go on to prove that no you hadn't thought of that, by going straight back to talk about strip clubs again. You don't give a shit about women's welfare, all you want is more tits'n'ass. The sole reason you carp on about women losing their jobs (which they don't have, the dancers are not employed by the clubs with full employees' rights to sick pay etc) is because it's an easy argument to latch on to rather than just be honest and say 'I just want more tits'n'ass'.

If it is so vital to society to have strip clubs for the sake of people who dance and do bar/security work at them (as if there are no other bar/security jobs!) then what about the poor men who can't earn money this way? I appreciate there are some male strippers, but not as many female as there isn't the same size market for male flesh. Why aren't you posting everywhere all over the internet getting upset about this? All those men being forced into shitty IT jobs or drawing dole or whatever when they could be getting their kit off and being paid? It's a crying shame! Seriously lib you need to get onto this! I mean if these dancers are literally going to starve without the option of removing clothes for men, what about all the men this must be happening to? Will someone think of the poor men?! Oh no. You won't. Because you don't want pecs'n'buns - you want tits'n'ass.

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