Please help settle an argument

[MessezFaire]

DH and I are arguing because he keeps telling DS to "lay down" when putting him to bed. I eventually cracked and hissed "it's LIE DOWN" in the middle of the night. He's accepted that I'm right (but has not accepted that it matters).

BUT if you can lay down your own head upon a pillow, can you lay yourself down upon a mattress? My feeling is that whilst it might be grammatically correct it just feels wrong

Is he right? Can you lay yourself down? Would you ever actually use that phrase instead of lie down?

[PonkAlert]

I see lay down/lay in (lie in) all the time on MN and have never heard it anywhere in real life. It irrationally bugs me every time! Maybe it's a regional thing? I'm in Manchester.

[LowDudgeon]

If it was going to be phrased like that (why? ) it should be lay. But that phrasing is archaic ("now I lay me down to sleep")

However, given the number of people who now think it's ok to say "led down" for "laid down" the lie/lay battle is all but lost anyway

[LowDudgeon]

Get past the song lyrics here & it's all explained beautifully!

blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2012/03/lie-or-lay/

[GoodyGoodyGumdrops]

You are right and he is wrong.

[AliceInHinterland]

You can tell him he made 'a particularly bad mistake'

[AliceInHinterland]

Tell him that he made

[MessezFaire]

Perhaps my question isn't clear. I know I'm right in terms of asking my son to lie down instead of lay down (...his weapons?!) at bedtime.

But DH makes the point that you could lay your head down (using your head as the direct object), so could you lay your body (the direct object) down upon a mattress? I think Dudgeon understood me - so technically yes but archaic (and ridiculous) phrasing

[GoodyGoodyGumdrops]

But would you 'set down' your head? Does that not then imply that have also let go of it - as a hen does when it lays an egg?

[MessezFaire]

Ah ha! A good point (and agrees with my vague feeling that is must be wrong)

[AliceInHinterland]

I think it's fairly valid actually. It has a different connotation to 'lie down' and implies placing yourself carefully somewhere (as in the pillow example).

[AliceInHinterland]

Not 'lay down' on its own, but 'lay yourself down'.

[Lapinlapin]

I think it's the fact that with transitive verbs you need an object.
So yes, you could say 'lay down your body' (why would you want to?!) but you have to specifically mention the word body. Otherwise, there is no direct object and you say 'lie down.'

So your dh is not grammatically correct. You're right, he's wrong!

[SenecaFalls]

So yes, you could say 'lay down your body' (why would you want to?!) but you have to specifically mention the word body.

Or the word "me" as in "Now I lay me down to sleep."

[SenecaFalls]

Or

"Like a bridge over troubled water, I will lay me down"

[ProseccoBitch]

He's wrong and you're right but commenting as a woman who's just left her much loved DP (like literally half an hour ago) and is sleeping in her car, and had no choice but would give anything to be in his arms right now, please ask yourself if little things really matter. I wish I had but it's too late now.

[EBearhug]

They are different verbs.
To lay needs an object - I lay down the law, I lay the table, the hen lays an egg.
To lie doesn't need an object - I lie.

Some of the confusion is from the past tense.
To lay - I laid down the law, I laid the table, the hen laid an egg.
To lie - I lay on the bed.
To add further confusion, to lie also means the fibbing sort. If you say, I lied, it means you were telling porkies. If you said, I lied on the bed, it means you were telling lies while lying on the bed.

It's no wonder people get confused!

You're right, though, it should be "lie down!"

[Kel1234]

Honestly, I say both. I think nothing of it. I've never thought about which I should say.

[OlennasWimple]

Prosecco

[MessezFaire]

Ok, so I think there's a consensus that he could lay himself down or lay his body down.

Prosecco I'm so sorry about your situation. I hope you managed to get some sleep and you have a plan for where to go from here. Ours is a jokey arguement to break some of the tension caused by sleepless nights with an unwell toddler.

[VintagePerfumista]

Lapin explains it perfectly.

Lie down is intransitive- no object
Lay down is transitive and needs one.

Other languages deal with it "better" by having the same verb stem, but adding a reflexive element for "lie".

They are so similar in all senses though, that I imagine over time will become interchangeable.

And, as said above, many songs get it "wrong".

[PolkadotsAndMoonbeams]

I think (or hope!) that in some songs it's on purpose - looking at Mr T. Jones in particular! Lady Lay Down I think has it for the repeated 'at ' sound along with stay/way etc.

[PolkadotsAndMoonbeams]

'Ay' sound even - I've just updated my phone and it keeps changing what I've typed!