This discussion topic is in partnership with ParentPort, a website run by the UK's media regulators. They set and enforce standards across the media to protect children from inappropriate material.

FREEVIEW ADULT CHANNELS - PORN?

(70 Posts)
CityGirls Fri 18-Feb-11 20:50:48

I would be interested to hear people's views on the accessibility of the ADULT CHANNEL section currently on FREEVIEW.
Whilst I believe that people should have the right to choose if they watch this material I don't think terrestial tv is the right platform on which to broadcast it. My concerns are that this material is too freely available to the Under 18 age group. I don't think that Parental Control Pin Numbers are a viable option of control either. Surely this material should be available by registration only so that the viewer has to prove he/she is over 18yrs?
From what I have seen from these adult/chat channels they really don't give out a good message to young people who are learning about sex and are impressionable.
What do you think? Should they stay / go / have more restrictions to programme content?

curlymama Fri 18-Feb-11 20:57:13

Why don't you think the parental control pin is enough?

I don't know how it works on freeview, but on Sky you have to be old enough to buy the package, so you have the opportunity to set a pin as soon as the system is installed. As long as under 18's, or under 16's really, can't access it, I don't see the problem.

FellatioNelson Fri 18-Feb-11 20:59:07

Agree with you, but frankly what can be accessed on TV with or without pin numbers and registrations is nothing compared to what can be found with the click of a mouse, so it's a moot point really. sad

I am fairly ambivalent about porn, but I do really worry about how readily available internet access to it is skewing our children's perceptions of what constitutes a 'normal' sex life.

CityGirls Fri 18-Feb-11 21:07:29

Yes, porn on the internet is freely available so why make terrestrial tv yet another platform to easily access it. A young child is much more likely to scroll down to adult channels than they are to log into a computer and type in something relating to porn. Whilst I'm sure most responsible parents will have these channels blocked etc., there are many more ' none IT savvy'parents who won't know how to block them thus leaving children vulnerable and these channels accessible. Leave this material to the magazines and internet, we don't want it beamed into our homes unless we decide to subscribe to it.

ThePosieParker Fri 18-Feb-11 21:09:31

Even if they can't see it they can see the image. And I also object to trailers of adult(not porn just grown up) films when searching for a family movie on Virgin.

HecateQueenOfWitches Fri 18-Feb-11 21:12:13

Well, since the adult channels don't broadcast until after 8 or 10pm, I would hope that young children are not actually alone in the room with the remote control at that time of night!

I think that there is nothing wrong with having the option to purchase adult tv. It may be better to do it in the same way as the box office movies - ie until purchased you only get the write up.

CityGirls Fri 18-Feb-11 21:14:27

In an ideal world we would like to think that all children are fast asleep before 10pm but sadly that is not the case.

HecateQueenOfWitches Fri 18-Feb-11 21:17:00

So what you are really asking is how can we protect children from the inappropriate things they may be exposed to as a result of piss poor parenting?

Short answer - we can't.

flabbyapronbelly Fri 18-Feb-11 21:22:17

I agree. Some channels with girls in bra's chatting in a phone lying on a bed are on at about 6pm. My daughter (4.5) has managed to turn over to this. To do a pin on 30+ channels took forever!

squeakytoy Fri 18-Feb-11 21:24:23

Keep the tv remote out of the hand of small children.

Set up parental blocks.

Adults should be able to watch what they want when they want, and parents should be able to monitor what their children watch.

CityGirls Fri 18-Feb-11 21:24:24

I agree there will always be examples of 'piss poor parenting' but we need to try and make a stand against this sort of thing, we can't afford to become complacent. We're probably fighting a losing battle but it's worth a fight.
Leaving adult dvds/videos/magazines lying around the home for kids to find is 'piss poor parenting' but broadcasters being allowed to beam this into our homes with no good restrictions is so wrong.

On virgin media you can hide all adult channels, so if you scroll to them there is no image, just 'enter pin' screen.

CityGirls Fri 18-Feb-11 21:32:50

SKY, VIRGIN etc are all subscription services however FREEVIEW is what it says....FREE. You just switch on and hey presto..PORN. Ok, you can delete/add pin numbers to the adult channels but as I said before, not all adults/parents are I.T savvy.
I would like to see these services restricted until the adults watching can subscribe to the service proving their age.

Try living in the Netherlands. We get porn on the regular TV channels. Fortunately DS is as yet too young but I've had an extremely shocked MIL to deal with. Even I've been pissed off by it as I do not expect those kind of adverts during Pride and Prejudice. Who the hell was the target audience then?! confused

bumpsnowjustplump Fri 18-Feb-11 21:42:16

I have freeview does that mean I get free porn shock I have never seen any

PigValentine Fri 18-Feb-11 21:42:39

I've got Freeview - I didn't know we had any free porn channels - you get a message saying you have to subscribe. Unless you mean those stupid Babestation channels.They're only on after midnight though aren't they? I can't say either DS has ever managed to put one on accidentally, although DS1 has managed to rent things on BT vision, quite inexplicably.

CityGirls Fri 18-Feb-11 21:49:48

Yes, I mean the Babestation ones. Not quite hardcore porn but definitely pushing it. There are about 6 or 7 channels showing this material from 10pm through to 5/6am. I can't believe they are allowed on at 5/6am when toddlers are up and about. Ok, so not all toddlers turn the telly on but some can and do! Do you really want them to find these channels while looking for c-beebies etc!!!

FrottageCod Fri 18-Feb-11 22:22:23

It is possible to set up your sky planner to not include such channels

ilovemyhens Fri 18-Feb-11 22:52:36

You can delete channels from your freeview box.

We deleted about 40% of the available channels including mtv and the porn/sexchat stuff.

It's easy enough to do.

ThatBloke Sat 19-Feb-11 08:04:15

Good point ilovemyhens. Watch out for automatic channel updates, may reset any user settings.

Frottage, there is an option to hide adult channels under the parental controls menu.

camdancer Sat 19-Feb-11 08:20:49

Like ilovemyhens, I just delete those channels from my freeview box. It's annoying that it has to be done every time I retune but it is very easy to do. I also get rid of the shopping channels as I think they are too much of a risk also.

But have you ever actually watched any of these stations. They are basically women sitting around rubbing their boobs trying to look sexy in an obviously cold studio. My DH and I had a bit of a look (just to see what they are like of course) and we thought they were about as sexy as washing the dishes. (Which neither of us find at all sexy - just incase you were wondering!) So although I don't really want my preschoolers watching it, I'm not really that fussed. I'd be more concerned by something like Sex and the City.

smokingnuns Sat 19-Feb-11 14:40:08

Never mind just children - I find it offensive that so many of these channels are available on the freeview package full stop.

ladyfirenze Sat 19-Feb-11 14:43:58

why do we have them in the first bloody place though? imo it would be better if they had to be opted into. even if they are free.

RayneStorm Sat 19-Feb-11 18:01:00

I take no issue with it. I think parental PINs are fine as long as you don't underestimate your child's intelligence and use your birthday etc.

CityGirls Sun 20-Feb-11 01:28:25

I don't feel that parental PINs are good enough to be honest. There are ways round this if young teenage boys (or girls) are curious and want to watch. The best thing is for these channels to have an 'opt in' rule.

Tortington Sun 20-Feb-11 01:32:15

you can delete the channel

i can anyway

KittyBigglesworth Sun 20-Feb-11 01:42:22

I don't want to see them on my screen either. How can I delete them?

pickgo Sun 20-Feb-11 01:44:17

I agree with you Citygirls. I don't even want the bloody channel names appearing, nevermind the crap beaming into my living room.

What mindless moron would think it's ok to dehumanise and objectify other people in the way porn does? It's disgusting and can be very damaging to young people. I saw a porn movie when I was 12 and was horrified - more at the men leering at it than anything.

The porn channels advertised are the reason I won't get Sky and whenever a salesperson offers Sky I make sure I always tell them the reason.

Like parental controls on computers, you should have to opt in to these things, not out. Bring back Mary Whitehouse!

allypall Sun 20-Feb-11 01:57:02

...I was with you up till Mary Whitehouse. I think a certain amount of realistic adult behaviour (swearing, flirting, nudity etc.) is fairly undamaging - but as Smokingnuns said, why should there be such a disproportionate amount of unrealistic sexuality available to skew young minds (inc. music videos, adverts, minipop Biebermiley Spears, etc)

KittyBigglesworth Sun 20-Feb-11 02:04:45

pickgo, if you become too Mary Whitehouse about it, it becomes all the more fascinating and you will be just be called a prude by men who want a quick, lonely wank. If people want to watch and it turns them on, let them, I find it either dreary or laughable. Many young girls aspire to the porn look, I suppose their boyfriends watch it and they try to compete with that look - body length tatoo, the overly plucked eyebrows, the collagen lips. Up to them, soneone has to like it. If there are too many studious girls, it will just make university entry all the more competitive, being a bimbo should be encouraged. Evil laugh - whar, har, har, har.

Agree, it should be a choice that the viewer opts into.

KittyBigglesworth Sun 20-Feb-11 02:07:35

someone has to like it.

in an obvioulsy cool studio???

Have you ever been in a TV studie - they're bloody roasting - those lights omg - I was dripping sweat by the time my 15 minutes of "fame" were up blush

And if you don't want them "searching" for Cbeebies - there's an easy answer.

Hide the remote (so they can't fiddle with numbers) = leave it on Cbeebies before you go to bed, and teach them how to switch it on at the box. - Hey presto - Cbebbies all ready for tem.

pickgo Sun 20-Feb-11 02:11:18

Mary Whitehouse a bit of a joke... but with all this bollox floating about about how porn is liberating for women, there seems to be a lot of coyness around just saying fairly and squarely porn exploits women and dehumanises both genders - also it's just yuk IMHO and should not be socially acceptable.

To me it's about as much of a turn on as seeing 2 dogs shagging in the street.

Seriously got no objection to swearing, nudity or straightforward (iykwim) sex on view.

KittyBigglesworth Sun 20-Feb-11 02:16:26

But what about if, as an adult, you simply don't want to see the titties titles on the menu, let alone the programmes? Debbie does A**L conveys an image I'd rather not think about when I'm eating a bagel.

FourFingeredKitkat Sun 20-Feb-11 02:22:48

De-tune the adult channels, we have.

danniclare Sun 17-Jul-11 00:47:30

People seem to be talking about 2 different things. On Sky there is an Adult section of the program guide, and the whole section can be deleted or locked in 1 go. On Freeview there are about 6 Adult channels that can be individually controlled, depending on your settop box. But there is no way of deleting them all in one go, you have to do it channel by channel, and they come back if you retune. This gives 2 problems:
- They come back when you retune
- It's tedious to delete each channel
- Some people don't even know they exist, so they don't delete them.
I don't see why Sky don't ship Sky receivers with the Adult section switched off. That would prevent viewing by kids whose parents don't know about them.
More seriously, Ofcom say Freeview boxes come in lots of flavours so they can't impose the same level of technical control as on Sky where one big* business has monopoly control.
GET A GRIP OFCOM - YOU ARE THE REGULATOR
OK, existing settop boxes can't be changed, but there is a thriving market in new ones and they don't cost much to replace. "Ask" the manufacturers to add standard Parental Control features to all new boxes sold, in say 6 months time. These should include a standard for detecting Adult channels and automatically blocking them unless deliberately unlocked, and a way of locking the lot in one go.
What's in it for the manufacturers? A shiney "Ofcom approved" sticker. A more sales that the dodgey boxes in the corner with no sticker.
And follow that up by going to the Minister and demanding legal powers to force controls on manufacturers of settop recievers.
GROW A BACKBONE OFCOM

LordOfTheFlies Sun 17-Jul-11 01:00:56

On my telly:
740- QVC shopping channel
470-Adult Freeview.

Got it wrong once and Feck Me! Got a shock grin shock blush

I'm sorry, but to all the people who say that you can set up parental PIN, or delete the channels - yes, that is a valid point, but a lot of people have no idea that these channels even exist, my parents certainly didn't! They never go past More 4 on the planner and didn't see babestation or gay rabbit or any of that. A 4yo is more than capable of using a remote and accidentally clicking on these channels.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be available, but they should be opt in, rather than delete/add PIN.

It's very very easy to say 'well, don't let them watch it', or 'don't let them have a remote' but I'm guessing the people saying this don't have a resourceful 3yo who can work the remote, turn on the TV and flick through the channels. We monitor, we check, obviously, but if I'm having a shower upstairs, he could easily flick channels and find something like this. I'm aware of it. I've put on parental controls and deleted these channels, but there are plenty of people who don't even know about them.

Christ, I'm coming across as the anti-porn police. I'm not, I don't give a shit about porn either way, but something like gay rabbit should not be as easy to access.

pickgo Sun 17-Jul-11 01:07:56

I agree daniclare - I'm sure it can't be that difficult to solve this problem technologically.

Have you been in touch with Ofcom then?

Animation Sun 17-Jul-11 06:40:50

"why do we have them in the first bloody place though? imo it would be better if they had to be opted into. even if they are free"

Exactly - why!?

Stupid - we don't need em!

Animation Sun 17-Jul-11 06:48:29

And I don't even want the "ADULT" section on my TV either. Why does it automatically get put there.

HairyFrotter Sun 17-Jul-11 11:15:54

My kids are in bed at the times these things are shown and I don't have the remote in reach for them to choose what they watch.

If you can't work out how to block the channels you don't want then phone the helpline and they will assist you. If you can't work out how to do that then your kids accessing inappropriate channels is probably the least of your worries regarding their care.

FabbyChic Sun 17-Jul-11 11:28:22

I'd not call the Freeview channels porn you have to pay for porn on any TV service.

Just because someone is in a bra and chatting on the phone does not make it porn. There are young girls going clubbing in less clothes.

ifancyashandy Sun 17-Jul-11 11:42:12

They're not available on terrestrial tv - only cable or satelite. Terrestrial channels are BBC1 & 2, ITV1, C4 and Five. All other channels are Digital (accessed via cable or sat as above).

When the switchover happens, I believe the plan is to have to opt-in to any adult channel, not opt-out as is the current system.

Problem will be solved!

Metal Sun 17-Jul-11 12:23:58

Technically they are opt in, since freeview boxes / TVs don't come tuned in.

If you decide to go for "auto tune" when you first get your TV/box then you are effectively "opting in" to all channels available.

SardineQueen Sun 17-Jul-11 12:35:23

I think that it is more reasonable for people who want to view these channels to opt in, than have all the parents in the country sitting there trying to work out how to delete the individual channels only to have them all come back when the box updates. Not to mention the fact that so many people don't know they are there / can't work out how to do it / simply can't be arsed.

I agree that the default should be that you have to opt in, rather than the current default of opt-out.

I delete mine, and the shopping channels.

The Ex used to get a PIN for them by doing something with his pay as you go mobile - they texted him a PIN and, I presume, took an amount in charges from his phone. I found this out as he was becoming an Ex so I don't know the details. But it would be easy enough for children to manage if all you need is a PAYG phone.

brownleatherbrogues Sun 17-Jul-11 12:59:43

if people want to watch this rubbish (its not porn just rubbish imo) they will, if they dont they wont

doesnt affect me whatsoever

danniclare Sun 17-Jul-11 13:34:41

Has anyone tuned into these by accident? How often does that happen?

larakitten Sun 17-Jul-11 13:36:03

I agree. I have a tv with sky, and a tv using freeview in my house. I have a young DD and do not want her to accidentally stumble across this - pin used or not - so I delete all the channels to avoid this happening. But its the fact that I have to do this at all is what irks me......porn is not something I personally enjoy but realise that people do, so why not make it an "opt in" thing rather than "opting out"??

danniclare Sun 17-Jul-11 18:28:29

So these channels are automatically added to the listings for both Freeview (digital terrestial TV) and Sky, and unless parents know about them and actively delete or lock them they will be listed and available. Typing in a wrong number can result in acute embarrasment.

Does anyone think Ofcom should use it's weight to force (new) Freeview boxes to have better adult controls and opt-in rather than opt-out?

How many people think the Sky channels should be opt-in rather than opt-out? Or are these non-issues?

acsec Sun 17-Jul-11 18:31:32

The Babestation channels are on all day (they take their bras off after 9) They are freely available on Freeview

pickgo Mon 18-Jul-11 21:11:20

And the adverts are pretty bad too.

BEWARE those who think they've got rid of them by deleting the channel. I've had to re delete regularly (about 5 times in the last 18 months) because the tv automatically rescans every so often to check if new channels are available - and suddenly they all poop pop up again.

dannic May I ask, have you been in touch with ofcom?

joric Mon 18-Jul-11 21:29:02

OP - I hide these channels by doing this...
MENU
SETUP
DVB TUNING MENU
ACCESS
CHANNEL LIST
ACCESS
I then have a list of all freeview channels- I UNTICK the ones I don't want to appear when I search through channels - e.g. Russia today, adult section, tv x, adult smile, babestation, adult party , rabbit, gay rabbit..... Shall I go on !!!*

Why do people expect a regulator/service provider to parent for them? Don't like it? Sort it yourself, don't abdicate your responsibilities and get hacked off when your kids see something they ought not.

mauricetinkler Mon 18-Jul-11 21:45:15

It's not proper porn a lot of the time OP, just women with their kit off. You're getting way too Mary Whitehouse about this methinks.

LeninGrad Mon 18-Jul-11 21:47:57

I don't even want to see them on the EPG, just got Virgin TiVo and think I can hide them all now, thank fuck for that.

This isn't incredibly relevant but Danniclare, why have you resurrected an old thread? Are you the OP with a name change?

How did you even find the bloody thing?!

danniclare Mon 18-Jul-11 22:45:47

After quite a while searching I have just worked out that OP is not someone's initials but stands for Original Poster. No, I'm not OP, I'm new and still finding my way round. Apologies if resurrecting an old thread isn't done, but it was a while before I realised this tread dated from Feb and there are several reasons why the subject interests me. Following on from previous comments seemed more sensible than creating a new near duplicate.

How did I find it? Well at first I didn't know how to find my way round the banner bar at the top (I'm still finding my way round) and used the search function. I started off browsing posts about News International and Sky then tried random other subjects that caught my attention.

For what it's worth I know a (few) people who have accidentially put in the wrong channel number, sometimes in company, and have frieds and relatives who would be motified if a screenful of women in underwear popped up when they were expecting Cash In The Attic. And some people with a more robust attitude.

ProcastinatorGeneral said "Why do people expect a regulator/service provider to parent for them?". Well I'm not suggesting banning these channels (unlike some people), simply getting away from the equivalent of a newsagents with top shelf mags at kids eye level and open on the contents page.

What I'm picking up is that there are a wide range of views on the subject, from couldn't care less, through can delete them myself, to the box rescans automatically and dislike. That and a pretty low level of interest.

It also bothers me that torture porn like Hostel and Saw is sold in big name supermarkets on the bottom shelf without even the figleaf of a top shelf position, but I suppose that is a different topic entirely.

But at the risk of going off topic, is it just adult channels that bother people, or is anyone else bothered by other genres on TV?

niceguy2 Mon 18-Jul-11 23:00:53

I see your point but quite honestly it's a much ado about nothing really.

The channels only start at midnight and then only for the trial period. I don't think there are any truly free ones. So firstly your kids would have to be up at that time and as sensible caring parents, they bloody well shouldn't be! Let sat alone watching any channel they please on TV!

Secondly as others have said, you can PIN lock the channels

Thirdly the porn on there is pretty shite. I watched a bit after my exGF told me how much I was paying for porn and I was like "What porn? We have porn!??! Cool!" It was shockingly bad. And as others have said, nothing a child cannot beat with a little help from Google.

danniclare Mon 18-Jul-11 23:18:44

Oh, Pickgo asked if I have been in touch with Ofcom. No, but I have tracked down a consultation response here where Ofcom just passively accepts that it is too difficult to impose EPG controls at present.

"there is therefore no need to reconsider the requirements in relation to labelling and segregation which were proposed in the consultation" (banning adult channels from Freeview).

They took account that "[The] DTT platform itself ... lacks the EPG information and controls other platforms afford viewers" and "it is possible that a significant proportion of DTT set top boxes in use would not afford PIN protection for use by viewers to block access to certain channels" then "as DTT set top boxes only require a terrestrial aerial, they are often used as second-set receivers and therefore more likely to be in use in childrens’ bedrooms".

Five claimed “it is somewhat disingenuous for Ofcom to argue that the Freeview platform might evolve to develop segregated EPGs, as Freeview is a horizontal platform with a large legacy of receivers with different capabilities”.

So, already considered on our behalf and rejected as unnecessary.

Fair enough. It's more of a personal bugbear than a general rule smile

It is perfectly fine (and more usual tbh) to start new threads on old topics. In fact, if you want to talk about breastfeeding or SAHM vs WOHM, it's practically mandatory!

There is a useful guide to acronyms floating around somewhere too. Otherwise it is all a bit baffling at first.

ManicMiner Tue 19-Jul-11 00:41:04

Get Virgin media, there are no porn channels on it.

beanlet Tue 19-Jul-11 00:50:03

My DS, 12 mths, has just learned how to use the TV remote, and he flicked through to the Adult Section today. Fortunately he's not usually awake at 11 pm, and is too young to understand what he's looking at, but think how many parents let really quite young children have TVs in their bedrooms, where they could easily view this stuff without supervision?

Frankly I think it's appalling that it's on free to air.

danniclare Tue 19-Jul-11 20:19:42

niceguy2 says channels only start after midnight and are not free. That might be true for soft-core encrypted channels on Freeview, but on Sky the same channels start at 10pm. TBH those don't bother me as they are pay-only so they won't pop up accidentally when fat finger trouble strikes or DS gets frisky.

What does bother me is the totally free channels on both Freeview and Sky that broadcast 24 hours a day, varying strength according to the time. A bunch of free channels have just been slapped on the wrist for strong content at 9pm. At best they will tone down for a month or so. Both DS are teens and have occasional use of the remote. And wrong channels do get selected. Someone mentioned getting the QVC number wrong. The BBC regional channels have 900 numbers, like the adult ones. Am I being unreasonable not wanting Busty Brenda popping up miming masturbation when the Neighbourhood Watch are round?

ConcernedViewer Fri 09-Mar-12 16:40:44

I thought I'd chime in here.

I'm 35 year old male, who has SKY and who watches the babe channels from time to time. One of the main reasons I watch is simple, there's nothing better on at that hour, and I enjoy the image of a beautiful woman! With that said, I find these current complaints quite extreme. From all of the babe sessions I've seen, none of them are as explicit as shows like Sexcetera, Eurotrash, Guide To Sex (This has shown ejaculation, and has even taught viewers how to have your girlfriend use a dildo on you!) or some of the other NON adult channels that show much more, uncensored for most of the time as well. This is why I don't get what the fuss is about regarding the adult channels which are much tamer!

I understand this is more about freeview, but shouldn't this be up to the parents to make sure that their children are in bed, or, to make sure that their child's TV doesn't have those channels on it? It's very easy to block any channel you don't want a child to view, if infact that random child would have a TV in their room or be up at these hours in the first place.

Ofcom seems to dismiss these easy safety meassures for some unknown reason, probably money orientated as they seem to fine the adult channels a lot of money lately, yet we never hear about fines for the more explicit NON adult channels that I mentioned.

I think it's time for the people to start doing things on their own, instead of having to rely on a mostly nonsensical regulatory system that is very hypocritical!

While I do think some content should be banned from free to view TV, I don't think anything on the 900 channels should be banned, and I think even more should possibly be shown. What is so wrong about a nude female body? It's natural, and not something to be ashamed of. If we can watch graphic and sometimes very realistic violence (Much of it REAL crime) on free to view TV, as well as more explicit sexual content as I posted above, then why would seeing a nude woman on the 900 channels be worse, or even equal to that? As it stands, a fully nude woman is NOT allowed to be shown in all her glory on the 900 channels, which I actually find a bit offensive, as if Ofcom is saying a female body is ugly and shouldn't be shown, yet they allow it on other channels, as well as uncensored penises left and right.

For free view, the 900 channels should be the least of the issues compared to what is shown elsewhere.

Parents need to take responsibility. Ofcom needs to focus on more important issues. There are safety measures on the TV. Full frontal nudity on certain channels is not dangerous!

DressDownFriday Fri 09-Mar-12 16:48:05

concernedviewer are you a scottishbloke by any chance? Just asking.

ConcernedViewer Sat 10-Mar-12 04:33:35

I am not a Scottishbloke. Sorry to disappoint smile

Mumoftwodaughters Sun 17-Mar-13 00:07:17

I am really with everyone who says we should be able to opt in. We have freeview. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the children agree to a download of updates from freeview and thereby reinstall all the deleted channels as they reload when updating. I am a single parent & feel like I am on constant watch at batting out the incoming communications into the safe zone - OUR HOME. Its bad enough managing the computer - 2 children to ensure they safe on their individual logins. Isn't there a govt person responsible for childrens' welfare? Surely if there is, this should come within their remit.

Mumoftwodaughters Sun 17-Mar-13 00:15:36

I thought Mumsnet was for parents. ConcernedViewer has clearly lost his way and needs to go and find a different chat space.

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