Do you think PND ever really leaves you?

(62 Posts)
alicemac83 Thu 20-Feb-14 09:23:01

Hi all,
I might be in the wrong forum, but I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this. I had PND three years ago, and I'm recently getting over another period of depression. I think it was brought on by planning another baby and remembering what happened last time.
I've started having some counselling, and last night I was talking about how I genuinely love working full time, and sometimes I feel like I need more 'me' time etc and how that makes me feel guilty a lot of the time, especially after having PND. I was hoping for some reassurance, but I left the session feeling even worse - and more guilty!
I feel like there's something wrong me with for wanting my own life and working etc. Can anyone else relate to this? I wonder if all the guilt etc is related to having PND and will I ever be able to let go of that?
XXX

Quinteszilla Thu 20-Feb-14 09:25:41

I will follow this with interest. I never had any "depressive tendencies" until I had PND when my second child was born. I managed to get through it without any antidepressants, but I think it has set off something in me. I have had periods of depression since, and find it difficult to claw myself back up on top of things.

I hope things get better for you.

Showy Thu 20-Feb-14 09:27:09

I had PND with my first. It's definitely gone and there's no spectre of it looming, no chance I'll fall back into a depression. It was triggered by a peculiar set of circumstances and a traumatic labour and delivery. All of that is behind me.

BUT, it will always inform the way I do things and the person I am. The way I parent DC1, the small anxieties I will always have about her and her brother, my attitude to parenting, it's all inextricably linked. I think because PND merely magnified what might have been normal anxieties and struggles with a newborn, the echo of it will be there in the choices I make.

It's difficult to explain. It doesn't control me, but it has and continues to subtly inform the person I am.

BrandNewIggi Thu 20-Feb-14 09:27:30

Maybe you are anticipating feeling exactly the same with a second child as you did with your first? I was absolutely fine with dc2 (sleep-deprived etc, but no depression at all) - it can happen that way! Loads of women work full-time - do you enjoy the time when you are with your dc, but just also enjoy the time apart? I can't see anything wrong with that.
Sometimes counselling makes you feel worse before it starts making you feel better - or maybe you have the wrong counsellor.

Showy Thu 20-Feb-14 09:28:50

I've thought of a crap analogy for how I feel. If PND was a big, suffocating blanket then what I'm left with years later is a single thread running through everything I do.

There you go. Crap analogy.

Probably didn't help at all.

Dilidali Thu 20-Feb-14 09:38:16

PND will/does go away.
I did not suffer with it, but I stopped at one child, thoroughly enjoy and thrive in my career, I went back to work full time etc. there's nothing wrong with that and I have never had any problems with my decision. And it was mine, not my DH's, who would have loved another one, but put no pressure whatsoever, it took us 7 years to conceive this one, I could have gone back to the excruciating process of IUF, IVF, tests and injections etc, but decided I won't put myself through this again, I'm grateful for the one we got.

I would have welcomed another one with all my heart, but not like that.
The only thing is other people asking when you're having another one, DD asking when is she having a sibling etc, she's got over it now, but years and years later and being old etc, I still stand by my decision and my family came to terms with it too.

alicemac83 Thu 20-Feb-14 09:57:05

Showy, I think that analogy is very good, and very much like I feel.
I think the recent episode was definitley brought on by planning another baby, and also I had a 3 day period of my DD being incredibly difficult. She told me she didn't love me and that she wanted her childminder, not me. I don't know why but I felt really negative towards her and it reminded me of how I felt when I had PND. I think it triggered all those old feelings. After PND I was fine, absolutely adored my DD, and still do - but the recent depression has left me feeling very vulnerbale, and unsure. It's almost like I'm terrified of feeling anything other that love for her, and If I do I feel like a terrible mum.
xx

ButEmilylovedhim Thu 20-Feb-14 10:09:18

Hi Alice. Sorry to hear all that. I too had PND five years ago after DD was born. I was on anti ds for about two and a half years so that was the acute phase I guess. I'm still finding that I'm still recovering though. Every six months that go by, I think "oh, I'm a bit better than I was before." That's a good thing but does show for me, it is a very slow recovery.

It's my confidence that has taken the biggest knock. I'm not as outgoing as I was and I'm less confident driving now. I'm a SAHM so it's easy to hide away to some extent. I've made some tentative moves towards a job but they haven't worked out for various reasons and each time I felt knocked down again. I don't think a job would be good for my mental health and therefore the rest of the family so I'm not pushing it for now. I realise I am very lucky to be able to make this choice. We get by on DH's salary but it's by no means a luxurious existence.

I think with PND you have to do what works for you. For you, it's working and you feel better for it and therefore I'm sure have more to give to your family. For me, it's not working and that allows me to save my somewhat limited energy and patience for looking after the children and recharging when they're at school. I have felt guilty that I'm not 'economically productive' and I do worry about the future but I'm doing the best I can do at this moment in time with the information I have. I think it's largely a mother's lot to feel guilty a lot of the time, especially about working /not working. I square it with myself by saying that by doing the best thing for me (ie staying as mentally well as I can) I'm largely doing the right thing for DH and DCs.

Counselling is usually helpful in cases like ours, (If you can find the right one, I had a dreadful one at first) but it can make you feel worse for a while because all the emotions are brought back to the surface. If you think the counsellor is good, it might be worthwhile to persevere for a while. I saw a therapist for a year and apart from the anti ds, it made the biggest difference to me and I hate to think where I would still have been without it.

So in summary, (sorry this has been such an essay!) you sound like a very good, caring mother who is looking after yourself as best you can, by getting out there and working and building yourself up. No need to feel guilty, be kind to yourself, you're doing well in difficult circumstances. I know that's easy to say and much harder to do, but keep practising! Take care honey xx

ThePippy Thu 20-Feb-14 10:14:27

I had PND with both of mine. Undiagnosed and untreated with DC1 but not too bad, very bad with DC2 and ended up on prozac. For me the PND came from really terrible anxiety that was triggered by many aspects of having young babies, and a feeling of total loss of "self". It does go away, but I think can often cast a shadow over how you feel going forward, not in terms of the PND itself lingering, more a new understanding of who you are as an individual and knowing your own weaknesses.

In both cases with my PND the growing age of the babys helped (in that many of the anxiety triggers naturally go away as they get older) especially as they are frankly very very dull when they are under a year, and also getting back to work was my saviour. Until I had children I don't think I had acknowledged just how much head space I needed as an individual - so time when I don't have to interact with anyone and can just do my own thing (even if that is nothing) and let my mind be calm. I have found that children fill every waking minute of this head space and for me this is not good for my mental health.

I adore both my children (now 4.5 and 2), they make me enormously happy/proud and I would never change the way my life has gone, but I will admit that I do still fondly remember by pre-children days when time was my own.

However life is slowly getting easier in that they are slowly becoming more and more independent, and I get glimpses of me time every now and again, even when they are around. I do know however that I could not be a SAHM, and if that was ever necessary I know I would become pretty unhappy. I work full time, and not even in a job I love, but it has become my escape - the one time I get to have some control over things. Even the odd break and lunch hour is like a shot of a necessary drug that I need for positive mental health.

Don't beat yourself up for working and wanting your own life/space. It is normal and absolutely necessary for some people. It comes with its own challenges which I notice a lot more now that my DC1 is at school and ironically for the very first time I have started to wish I didn't work full time and could spend more time with DC1. This makes me realise that for me much of the problem is down to the totally dependent nature of very young children which I find overwhelming and claustrophobic, but DC1 is now an age where we can have a conversation that is interesting, they can attend to the toilet themselves, feeds themselves (including taking plates back when finished and washing hands etc), dresses themselves, reads a little and can find ways of entertaining themselves. It is a totally different dynamic in the house now and definitely easier and more enjoyable. Just another couple of years to go with DC2 and I think I will feel like a different person.

HerGraciousMajTheBeardedPotato Thu 20-Feb-14 10:23:34

I think your guilt is related to depression. IME depression is a bit like alcoholism (I have no experience of alcoholism, but I relate my experience of depression to what I have read about addiction). I consider myself to be a former alcoholic depressive, to be a recovering addict depressive. In other words, I need to work on my anti-depression strategies every day. They need to be a way of life, like being a committed athlete or person of faith. I need to be on the alert for a resurgence of the depression, and to ask for help when I begin to need it (and not wait until I drown!).

This may sound grim, but it is not. It can be as simple as opening the curtains when I get up and looking at the blue sky and the birds and the spring bulbs coming up. And then getting on with the morning.

It's about putting in prevention plans when I know something potentially triggering is coming up.

I had my first severe bout of depression after dc1 was born, but not after dc2 and 3 were born. I put this down to us preparing wonderful supprt frameworks during my pregnancies, so that I was not left to crumble afterwards. These included various combinations of HV, peri-natal outreach, community psychiatry, the labour ward, apost-natal doula, and my total and utter gem of a dh.

Apart from these, the best treatments I have found for the bouts of depression over the years have been:
Honesty - asking for help
Selfishness - doing things for me
CBT - learning to think differently.

Each bout has been less severe, as I learn and build on the lessons of the past.

HTH

HerGraciousMajTheBeardedPotato Thu 20-Feb-14 10:27:00

Showy I like your analogy.

alicemac83 Thu 20-Feb-14 10:29:20

ButEmilylovedhim, I think you're right about counselling. I don't feel like my counsellor is very good. When I had my assessment I saw a different lady who was really insightful, and when I left I felt immediately lighter and positive. But with the new lady, she just tends to repeat things I have said. I'm quiet self-aware and already think a lot about things, so I feel like she's not really offering me anything new.

Pippy, I think I'm quite similar to you. My DD is 3 now, and I do find it easier than when she was a baby. I didn't really enjoy that time and was always looking forward to her getting bigger. I think as I'm still recovering from the latest spell of depression, and that's why I'm feeling quite unsettled about my feelings for DD. It's strange, because before Xmas I was besotted with her - I just need to tell myself that that's the real me and now the anxiety/lack of self-confidence etc is talking, not me.

Quinteszilla, how often do you find you experience depressive periods? Have been to your GP and does anything in particular trigger them?

XXX

kalidasa Thu 20-Feb-14 10:33:20

I totally agree with pippy. I think some women find that total dependence incredibly fulfilling but some of us find it absolutely stifling. I also had very bad PND (mostly because of a terrible pregnancy I think as the actual birth was fine but the PND set in pretty much immediately). I also love being back at work. I do feel a bit guilty that my whole personality has not somehow shifted after having a child, and that actually the things that I am most excited about and most uplifted by (my complex and very intellectual job; reading and writing; teaching; ADULT conversation) are still the same and I don't suddenly find hours with a baby fulfilling, even if the baby is my own. But I went to a parenting session organised by work and the woman there said a really interesting thing, that actually research suggests that women's priorities are NOT changed by having a baby, but that the enormous emotional upheaval does allow people to be in touch with their real priorities sometimes for the first time. So actually if you find that you feel much the same or even (in my case) more focused and ambitious at work, that suggests that you had quite a good insight into yourself in the first place and are probably doing the right job. I found that quite reassuring!

My feelings did change once the PND finally lifted, in that I finally felt clear that I loved DS and I started to enjoy some of the time with him. But it wasn't a complete reversal. We are hoping to have another one but I can't imagine not going back to work full time afterwards. I also enjoy him SO much more now (he is 14 months) that he is a real little person, and actually I find stroppiness, tantrums etc easy to deal with, whereas DH who enjoyed the beginning much more gets really wound up by them and finds it hard not to take them personally. You can actually do "things" with him now - like show him how to do something, or work on a scrap book - and that's much more me than all that mind-numbing sitting around of the first few months.

I have read three things recently that I have found interesting re: work and being a mother. The 'high-earners' thread on here (don't be put off by the title), a book recommended by that thread, Valerie Grove's "Compleat Woman" from the 80s (about women who combined careers with marriage and large families, and who are wonderfully breezy and unangsty about childcare in a way that seems now both refreshing and oldfashioned), and the "Bad Mother" book by Ayelet Waldman that I've just started reading (quite spiky but also funny).

IglooisnowinSheffield Thu 20-Feb-14 10:37:44

I agree with what showy says. I had PND after DC3, it has gone that horrible fog has completely cleared and I can feel a wide range of emotions now. But I don't have the same rationality I used to have over there health, I used to be calm and never panicked now I am a but of a worrier. This might lift too though as DD is still a toddler with underlying health concerns.

I hope you find the peace that you need, it is a shit illness.

alicemac83 Thu 20-Feb-14 10:50:43

This is so interesting, and exactly what I needed. It's so nice to talk to other mum's who understand. I think before I had my DD I had visions of myself being a bit of an earth mother, and giving up work etc etc. It's odd that I ever felt like that really because I've always been really ambitious when it comes to work and have worked hard to get to the position I'm in.
I think I need to accept that I am how I am and that I'm not like every other mum (and that every mum is different).
When I talk to other mum's about how bad they feel about working and how much they miss their kids I nod and sympathise, but really I feel very happy being at work and know that my DD is having a great time.
When I'm 100% healthy I don't let this bother me, but at the moment I'm dwelling on it quite a lot. HergraciousMaj is right, I think it's the depression making me feel guilty.
Honestly - I'd love to me one of those mums who has a baby, is happy from the start and doesn't have to worry about this sort of thing!!

kitstwins Thu 20-Feb-14 10:55:00

I had PND after the birth of my twins. It was due to a very difficult pregnancy and birth and was undiagnosed for a long time. I muddled through and did my best to cope. I was also determined to hide it as, irrationally, I feared that someone would find out and take the babies away from me. The guilt was overwhelming.

I'm 'cured' now but I too run with showy's 'thread', which mostly manifests itself in a continual low hum of anxiety about my children. This anxiety was a loud constant noise when I had PND (fears of them dying, constant panic about bad things happening to them or me) but lessened once I was 'cured'. What I wanted to ask was do other people have this anxiety also? I do wonder if it's a hangover/'thread' (such a good analogy) of PND? For example, I see disaster everywhere. If we go to the park and my children climb a climbing frame I imagine them falling off and smashing their head open or breaking a leg; I always imagine the worse case scenario. When they ride on their scooters my heart is always in my mouth as I envisage them falling over and scraping their lovely little faces or hitting their heads/knocking all their teeth out. I'm filled with panic about them hurting themselves and run after them the whole time saying "be careful", or "slow down". It must drive them mad.

Am I the only one with this? I didn't get PND with my third child but the anxiety about accidents has perpetuated and extended to him and has never left. Having spoken to other friends with children they look quite bemused at my levels of anxiety and certainly my husband doesn't think like this (he's careful with them but just doesn't see the worse-case-scenario/disaster movie as I do). Is it just me or is it a common thing amongst other mothers who have had PND?

HerGraciousMajTheBeardedPotato Thu 20-Feb-14 10:56:16

I think that the biggest mistake I made was to become a SAHM. It was my dream. I was delighted that dh supported me and that we could afford it. But turned out to be a poisoned chalice.

However, had I returned to work I would probably have felt guilty as I would not have had the opportunity to learn that I am not, after all, an earth mother. I would probably still have had depression, but I think that, overall, my mental health would have been better.

Now the time has come for me to get back into paid employment. I'm half delighted and half terrified.

Minesota Thu 20-Feb-14 10:56:49

I had PND too and then AND when I was pg with with my second.
I think that recovery from PND takes time. Much more time than people want to acknowledge.
It's much easier to think that as soon as the depressive thoughts gave sort if gone that's it everything is solved and ok. In reality, the consequences of PND stayed with me for a long long time. I felt unsure of myself and my parenting for years. I felt unsure of the strength if my love for dc1 for years. It took me probably about 5~6 years for me to really feel ok with myself as a parent to dc1.
And I think I had the chance of having dc2, who I bonded with straight away, to remind me that if I was a good parent to dc2 then probably also was a good parent to dc1!

HerGraciousMajTheBeardedPotato Thu 20-Feb-14 10:58:57

kitstwins me too. I think that when those intrusive thoughts start taking over, then the thread is beginning to re-weave itself into a blanket. A warning to take action before I get overwhelmed.

kitstwins Thu 20-Feb-14 11:02:17

Oh and I was keen to go back to work once my children were a year old. I'd enjoyed my job before I had children and planned to return anyway, but I was surprised at the level of relief I felt. Maybe that's not PND but relating to having twins and that being quite full-on for the first year. I do think though that when you've had PND you become very analytical (and critical?) about your actions as a mother. Probably because of the guilt.

I know motherhood is guilt, but there is certainly an extra truckload when you have PND I think. I'm reconciled to having had PND and I love my daughters passionately and no differently to my younger child (with whom I didn't have PND), in fact I possibly have a more intense connection with them as there is a little bit of sorrow at our sad beginning and my love for them was hard won and determined and resolute. But for the first year of my life I wasn't really me and for the first month I was going through the motions and pretending at connections that I just couldn't find, however hard I tried and hunted for them. My daughters were smothered with kisses and held all the time but inside me I knew that something was missing. A part of me had been switched off and I just couldn't find the switch, in spite of (desperate) looking.

Gosh this is a ramble. Seven years now and it's like yesterday.

alicemac83 Thu 20-Feb-14 11:04:36

That's what I need to learn, how to stop the thread becoming a blanket. I tend to panic if suddenly DD is a bit difficult or goes through a phase - I always think 'she's going to be like this forever, I can't cope.'
Minestoa, I think that's a very refreshing way to view it. I agree that the consuquences of PND can last a long time. For example, I still feel very envious of friends who have babies and love it from the start. I guess I feel shortchanged by having PND, but at least I'm not alone!
xx

Minesota Thu 20-Feb-14 11:24:03

Interestingly anxiety about my dcs safety has never being there for me.
But anxiety in bit loving them enough and not being a good enough parent has been strong. Yes it has reduced a lot, quite disappearing but I probably still put much more thought than most people about how to do x and y, what is the best approach to z and doing A would need for the dcs when they are adults ....

alicemac83 Thu 20-Feb-14 11:27:36

I'm the same Minesota, my anxieties are always based around how I feel about DD, if I love her enough etc etc. It's exhausting sometimes - but in some ways I think that the fact that we agonise about it so much shows we do love them - otherwise we wouldn't care about how we feel.
X

kalidasa Thu 20-Feb-14 11:34:47

Yes my SIL has a baby who is only 6 months old and she is already a couple of months pregnant with the next, she loves it so much! I do feel sad and a bit of a failure for not feeling like that, but then I also remind myself how straightforward and straightforwardly rewarding I have always found my work, a huge source of emotional satisfaction in a way that a lot of people never experience. As you say, we are all different!

(Also, her baby slept through very early and DS still doesn't - I do think that makes a pretty huge difference to how you feel about the first year or so.)

I think what is hard to believe is that your way can still be a good way to be a parent, especially if you don't have a 'model' for it. My mother had a much more 'traditional' role as did most of the mothers I knew growing up, and sadly at work there are very few senior women who have had children.

ButEmilylovedhim Thu 20-Feb-14 11:41:53

Yes I agree Minesota. It is the consequences of PND that last and last in my experience. The lack of confidence, just general scaredy-cat ness of my existence now. Is this just me now, forever? I mean I was never wildly outgoing or confident before, I was a fairly quiet, bookish, introvert but the things I used to do, seems like that was a different person to me now. I used to help run a toddler group and lead activities, I used to be in a church homegroup with a very diverse (and challenging, in a good way) group of women and was good friends with them all.

I haven't been to church in years not because my faith faltered but because I couldn't be around people anymore. Although my faith is not what it was because it hasn't been supported to grow. Anyway, that probably is not relevant to most people but I do feel it has all been about loss apart from gaining my lovely DD. Loss of friends, some faith, interests, mobility (nervous about driving now),even the relationship with my mum took a battering because, for reasons best known to herself, she refused to help me when I was at my lowest. A lot of my counselling was about coming to terms with that!

I met an acquaintance the other day who knew about my depression. She herself has battled very serious physical health problems and is now feeling better because she has found treatment that works. She asked how I was and I said pretty much better, maybe 95 per cent. (On a really good day) She was obviously feeling tonnes better and said "Aren't you glad it happened? ie. both our illnesses Don't you feel stronger for coming through something like that?! I didn't want to rain on her parade so I didn't exactly disagree and said I was certainly wiser now. But I walked away and thought of course I wish it had never happened! I lost years of my life to it, it's still affecting me now and I feel predisposed and vunerable to depression when I never was before. All this what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Not always.

Sorry for going on about myself, OP. It's nice to talk with others who are a few years down the line from it. Hope you don't mind.

Sorry to hear that your counsellor might not be that great. They do vary so much. I know they are meant to reflect what you say back to you to soome extent, but there's got to be more to it than that! Is there any chance you can swop to the woman you saw first? The awful one I saw was through the GP (!) The good one was private. Don't know how common that is.

Indith Thu 20-Feb-14 11:42:09

I had pnd after dc2. I have had dc3 since and actually when I was pg with him I felt far more right and balanced than I had in a long time. But I don't think any depression every really leaves you. I'm fine now but I find I slip more readily, stress, sleep deprivation and things make me head back towards old behaviours, old feelings resurface. The difference is that unlike when I wad suffering badly I can recognise them and work through them.

It is a long hard road.

Minesota Thu 20-Feb-14 11:57:52

Actually I agree about trying to make that experience a positive one. The PND has made me parent my children better because I have spent so many times looking at how I could do things. It has helped me in'living my dcs' nit matter what, something that came handy when dc2 happened to show signs of SN and very difficult behaviour.
I am not saying I would wish that experience to anyone. But I was decided I wouldn't let it crush me and I would make the best out if it iyswim?

ButEmilylovedhim Thu 20-Feb-14 12:06:08

Yes, I get what you mean Minesota. I'm just not there yet. I am very mindful of how I'm bringing up the dcs but I would have been equally so without the PND to be quite honest. I have a much older dc too you see. Perhaps there have been gains if one wants/tries to view things in a positive light but I still feel there has been a net loss. Hopefully I'll get there one day.

alicemac83 Thu 20-Feb-14 12:11:48

Yes, I know what you mean Minestota, when I'm feeling good I feel that the PND made me appreciate things more, like health and happiness and my DD. But when I'm low, I feel like it's kind of hanuting me.
Very complicated!
I think I'm going to switch counsellors as I think you need to feel in good hands. It's like when I had rubbish teachers at school - you just can't put your faith in them. x

Showy excellent analogy.

It's three years since dd1. I think it still colours me grey. I think it's 'responsible' for some struggle areas I still have with dd1. Inverted as I wonder if I allow the behaviour too...

alicemac83 Thu 20-Feb-14 12:18:16

I realise that I spoil DD quite a lot, I always buy her things, disney DVDs, clothes, toys... I think it's guilt.

Minesota Thu 20-Feb-14 12:24:56

Dc1 is now 11yo so I suppose I can say that. I would never have been able to say 'yes in some ways there has been some positives in there' when dc1 was 3~4yo. I still had fully 'reconnected' with him at the time.
And 2~3 years ago I still had these moments where I though ' oh no. I'm sure that if dc1 does X it's the effect of the PND and the attachment issues we had'
Now I have a near teenager and I am confident that even if this first months have affected him, somehow we have managed to turn the tables around.

OP I think the idea of councelling is a great one and one I wish I had done all those years ago. I remember asking my HV about some support after dc2 birth but she looked taken aback by the idea of 'consequences' of PND. The best she had to propose was parenting classes.

Minesota Thu 20-Feb-14 12:26:56

Sorry when dc 1 was 3~4yo I still had NOT recovered from our attachment issues.

mrsannekins Thu 20-Feb-14 14:11:06

Showy, that was a brilliant analogy, and pretty much sums up how I feel too. DD is now 2 and I was diagnosed when she was 6 weeks old. Although I'm not on medication anymore, I know that I need to be careful about what I eat, and make sure I get enough sleep, so in that respect I think PND will be with me for the long term, even if I'm not actually depressed. It has certainly changed me as a person, and influences my decision making now.

CraftyBuddhist Thu 20-Feb-14 14:36:49

Hi op. and pp's.

It's been sad reading sad.

I can relate to much of what you have said. We are all products of our experiences and thoughts and it would be surprising if what we have been through did not affect us now and in the future in one way or another.

I have had to work on being kind to myself. I had felt so low for so long. I think the hangover for me has been to be kinder to me. Sometimes in the grip of depression we can be our worst critic. And that critic almost stays as an unwanted houseguest after the pnd party has finished. The guilt about bonding/attachment/feeding etc issues. The worry for past and future on top of now .

In some ways I find meditation to be my saviour as it is a ten minute me time each day - longer if I can. I also find real comfort in the idea of impermanence: I am not defined by what I have experienced. The hard times did pass. There will be hard times again. But they too will pass.

thanks and best wishes to you op and pp's.

CraftyBuddhist Thu 20-Feb-14 14:50:55

I should add that anytime I hear of a mother with pnd committing suicide (there is an inquest in Sheffield at the moment) I want to cry.

crowsnest Thu 20-Feb-14 15:16:02

I haven't had PND but having children triggered Anxiety.
I have had a baby every 2.5 years for the last 7 years if that makes sense. So my 3rd baby is 18 months.
I noticed as my children got to near 2 I was feeling better but planning the next set me off again.
I keep feeling I should have another just now. hmm I think this is related to issues which are related to my anxiety. I have 2 sons and 1 daughter and im convinced im going to spend my life focusing on and worrying about my only daughter more. Im convinced this is more to do with my anxiety and this time hopefully DC3 will get to age 2 and my sanity will return and I will realise I don't need or want any more children smile.

Personally, I think because they say it takes 2 years for your hormones to settle PND and anxiety will ease then but of course planning the next baby brings it all back in your mind.

I hope that helps. It helps me to think that once my last baby is 2+ I might get ME back again!

alicemac83 Fri 21-Feb-14 14:17:41

I can't wait to consistently feel ME again.
I'm feeling quite low/anxious today as I've started to feel like I don't want to be around my daughter. I know that it's the anxiety/depression telling me this, and that actually I do love her, but it's so hard to break these negative thoughts. I was fine before the counselling, and now I feel like I'm struggling again.

crowsnest Fri 21-Feb-14 14:32:08

Was that your first session? The first session does leave you hanging a bit. I had CBT for anxiety a few years ago. It kind of drags out the past but after that I felt I got a bit more understanding from it. Understanding the why's and what's and how to go forward. Try again.

alicemac83 Fri 21-Feb-14 14:47:18

Hi Crowsnest, no it was my second session. I don't mind talking about my past etc, but I feel that it's fine as long as I get some sort of reassurance. For example, I said that sometimes I feel guilty about being a working mum, and that I feel jealous of other mums who want to be at home with their kids, and she just nodded. I kind of wanted her to say 'it's ok to feel like that,' or something! But when I left I felt like I'd created a whole new problem for myself, and now I feel like I don't love my daughter anymore! It's horrible, when just monday and Tues I felt fine with her and enjoyed her.

stickygotstuck Sun 23-Feb-14 20:16:48

Coming late to this thread, but so glad I found it. Good to hear I am not alone.

Like many PPs, I didn't know how much headspace/personal space I absolutely need for myself until DD came along.

Will try and remember what potato said about beging a recovering depressive and being aware of it so you can be proactive in pushing back the clouds before the storm sets in.

ButEmilylovedhim Sun 23-Feb-14 21:45:24

Hi sticky, nice to hear from another of our select group! How are you now? How did PND affect you? Don't answer if you'd rather not, of course.

I do find I am much more watchful of my moods and emotions now. I rather took stability for granted before.

MyriadOfMiracles Sun 23-Feb-14 21:51:10

I am currently on Prozac and about to start cbt. I was diagnosed with pnd few months back when dd was 8 months. I didnt have bonding problems but I was insanely anxcious of her health, I had constant guilt about feeding issues, i really hated myself and i always questioned my parenting. Guilt consumed me. After a couple of months on some ad's i feel infinitely better!
I think I will always have little quirks with dd though- I am very conscious of her feelings etc and am often criticised for 'spoiling' her as I hate her crying and always hold her etc. i take no notice of others though , i always respond to my dd for her well being, but for my own too!!
A counseller told me depressed mothers ae often the most attentive and loving as they over compensate through guilt. I will never ever forget her kind words. I believe it to be absolutely true!

ButEmilylovedhim Sun 23-Feb-14 22:09:15

Hi Myriad! So glad you're feeling better. I was on prozac for a while too. I took citalopram first which worked well for a while but then seemed not to suddenly, that's when I switched to prozac. They are quite amazing when they work.

You're so right! You can't love a baby too much. You're giving her a lovely start. I wish people wouldn't criticise. I think it's none of their business, they don't know what damage they're doing and it's more of a comment on how they did things. They did it differently, they were right so if you're doing it differently then you must be wrong and uh oh what if you're doing it right, they must have been wrong. Can't have that thought so it's hastily stuffed down and they criticise instead. Probably happens without conscious thought. That's my musing anyway, for what it's worth.

Good luck with the cbt! I've heard very good things about it.

theborrower Sun 23-Feb-14 22:10:41

OP, I can relate to what you're saying too. I'm not sure it ever really leaves you, even though you're 'better' if you see what I mean. As another poster said too, I still feel unsure of my parenting sometimes. I've never been able to relate to friends who have loved being a mum from the word go or who have gone on about how they couldn't bear to leave their DC with a babysitter until x age. A close friend said that having her DD was the best thing that ever happened to her. I was honest and said that I used to feel it was the worst thing to ever happen to me (EMCS, PND and all the feeling gs associated with both). That is not the same as saying she is the worst thing to happen to me. Of course not. I love her so much, but her first year was difficult.

I'm pregnant again and feeling a bit anxious about it all again, but trying not to (it feels like nothing is in my control anyway, as it wasn't last time). But I sobbed in the bath the other night because I thought "I don't want to go through all that again".

Sorry, that's a ramble. Just wanted to say, I relate.

TheReluctantCountess Sun 23-Feb-14 22:14:17

No, I don't think it does leave you. My son is seven and I had severe PND. I more or less ignored him for the first 18 months of his life, and then treated him as a mere nuisance until he was about 5. We have a reasonable relationship now.
I will always feel guilty. I feel guilty for not not being a 'mum' to him. I feel sorrow at everything I have missed out on. I feel resentment towards him but extreme grief and sorrow. I am learning to live with it...and him.

HerGraciousMajTheBeardedPotato Sun 23-Feb-14 23:51:29

We gave ds rollerblades for his 8th birthday. A few months later, I took him rollerblading at a rink. I had never rollerbladed, but I had ice-skated as a child. I staggered on to the rink and wobbled away. By the time I had done a circuit, the basic skating skills had refreshed. I returned to ds to find him gaping wide-eyed at me: "Mum, you can rollerblade! That was fantastic!"

Why am I telling you this? Because I think it's a pretty good analogy for depression.

When I say that you never completely leave depression behind, I don't necessarily mean that you will always have sadness, anxiety, whatever form your depression takes. But you will always carry that experience with you, just as you carry every experience and learning you have had in your life. You never know - it may give you strength or be of use at some point. And other people see a different 'you'. Your prejudices and beliefs are not the same as theirs - often they have none, they believe in you more than you believe in yourself, and judge you less than you judge yourself.

MyriadOfMiracles Mon 24-Feb-14 09:01:24

Hi butemilylovedhim thanks for the reassurance smile I agree that people do push you to do as they did - as if it deviates from their way they may feel intimidated / inferior. Not everyone , but a fair few- consciously or unconsciously.
I didnt think this 10 months ago though- so every suggestion etc was met with antagonism on my part as I felt everyone was criticising me- I felt so alone and scared :/
I do often wonder if my pnd did affect bond with dd , i always say it didnt as I loved her from the start, but i sometimes question if i experienced the same love other mothers do initially . I know now that I am madly inlove with her- it is like an all consuming , powerful love that I was just too tired/ scared / lonely/ depressed basically!-to have initially.
However i do think a lot of mothers have the same experience who do not suffer pnd- so maybe it was normal.
Anyways, for me its too early to make sense of it all! I have only been taking ADs for 2 and half months... Looks like i have a long road ahead of me- I am feeling much more confident and positive with it thanks to the ADs though.

ButEmilylovedhim Mon 24-Feb-14 11:29:06

TheReluctantCountess so sorry to hear that. It's a truly awful experience. It's good things are improving though. Have you had any counselling? Mine helped me so much.

TheBorrower congratulations on your pregnancy. Hope it all goes swimmingly this time. Have you told your midwife? Maybe they can put some help in place ready in case you need it. You may not though.

MyriadofMiracles I think that's completely normal! It takes time for love to develop fully even if there's that bond straightaway. That bond not being there at the start or for quite a while is normal too. Birth and its aftermath is a shocking business! You might not have a long road ahead. One of the mums in my antenatal class had PND but was only on the anti ds for a few months and was absolutely back to normal and very happy very quickly. That might be you too.

thanks and unmumsnetty hugs to all you lovely posters (((()))) Hope you all have good days x

LadyInDisguise Mon 24-Feb-14 12:00:05

My PND did affect the bond between me and dc1. Mainly because the PND was never diagnosed so I never had the opportunity for ADs etc.... I remember when everything lifted, dc1 was about 2yo. The best image I had for the situation was this feeling that once I had a baby and someone somehow had replace my lovely baby with a monster (aka an unsettled toddler!).

But the wish to 'make everything right again' and to 'ensure that I gave the best life possible to dc1' means that we have developed a really nice strong bond together.
it took time, a lot of time. And some effort to make everything right again. But it did and I think this is the most important thing to keep in mind. That there is no reason for things to stay as they are and that they will get better. And also as Myriad said, the PND might also bring some positives in your life. I know it did.

2littlerascals Tue 25-Feb-14 09:35:53

Had severe depression after having twins. It has lifted when I realised it wasn't actually about being a mum/not working but around deeper emotional issues. I had always used work to escape them. I'm not saying you're like me but worth thinking about if the depression has its roots elsewhere. Also had a therapist who really didn't help. Don't hesitate to walk away if she's no good. Have you tried mindfulness? It helps me a lot to just calm down mentally. Keep at it and good luck!

2littlerascals Tue 25-Feb-14 09:53:51

Just to add there can be, as I had, an underlying mild depression issue before you have kids that explodes. At least when I got severe depression due to trauma and history and twins well it all erupted. Some quality help and right medication helped and is helping me. I ave no happy functional family. Hubby does long hours. Bullied out of job when pregnant...no local friends as new mum... Hardly any wonder I got v ill. I think it leaves you mainly with a fear it could happen again, knowledge that people are fragile and some are blissfully unaware of this. However it can also leave you wiser and with great life and parenting skills. Know some good books if you're interested.

MyriadOfMiracles Tue 25-Feb-14 10:50:44

I would be interested in the books 2littlerascals?
Sorry to hear about your depression, I agree too that underlying mild depression can often explode into major depression (pnd) after baby. I think this was the case with me. However, i still feel generally quite ignorant on the subject! Not much support round here for is pnd sufferers. Not entirely confident about the cbt either. But as I say the ads have really lifted me. Would love some good reading material too though.

2littlerascals Tue 25-Feb-14 13:30:37

Ok. Well I had insurance covered stay in priory hospital so got access to good stuff and latest thinking. The mindful path to self-compassion is a great book for learning to be kind to and look after yourself. The mindful way through depression is great and has a CD with meditations that help you calm the mind. Feeling good the new mood therapy is a very good CBT book, as is CBT for dummies.

Guilt is a symptom of depression but also a symptom of motherhood - guilt if you work as not with kids, guilty/bored if you don't work as not bringing in cash and "kept"...

Symptoms of depression: low confidence, lethargy, too much/too little sleep, too much food/drink/fags... lack of interest in things, isolating yourself, negative spiralling thoughts, feelings of low self-worth,. Ooh so lovely!!!

I find getting outside helps, exercise helps, social contact of any positive kind, not watching bad tv, sleep, mindfulness, supportive friends, animals, but mostly developing a kind inner voice focussed lovingly on my own health and happiness and that of my family - as well of course as others. I've always been a perfectionist beat yourself up to succeed kind of person... I've also had to contend with a lot of traumatic and unpleasant events and abusive people so needed to learn how to deal better with those.

alicemac83 Tue 25-Feb-14 15:35:01

Hi everyone, I actually stopped the counselling and started again with a new lady who was amazing! She basically said that there is way too much pressure on mums these days to be happy, work, do it all etc etc. When I told her I commmute, work full-time etc she said 'and don't forget your other full-time job -being a mum.' She also told me to draw a picture of my depression as I saw it and then basically tell it to 'f*ck off!' She was so funny, and so real. It was lovely.
I am a writer and I'm serioulsy thinking of writing a book about this issue. I would have loved to pick up a book written by real mums about this - and the issue of it staying with you in good ways and bad. I never read anything about this - just that it would go. It's so interesting xx

HerGraciousMajTheBeardedPotato Tue 25-Feb-14 17:07:17

I prefer showy's blanket analogy, but a lot of people find this book explains what depression feels like very clearly.

MummyBeerest Tue 25-Feb-14 17:17:34

I totally agree wrt the connection of underlying depression issues and PND. I have depression, but definitely had PND when my DD was born as it was unlike any low I'd ever experienced.

I think I'm better with it, but there are some days where I just feel like a complete failure. As a mother, wife, human. I don't regret having DD, but wish I'd had taken more control of my depression beforehand rather than just winging it while pregnant.

Counseling has helped, but it is difficult to find a good counselor IME. PND is so under reseached, and it takes a particular counselor to approach such a thing with an open mind. I had a doctor flat out say that I must have had deeper issues because "women usually love being mothers."

Hard as it was, I did not let that stop me from trying to find help elsewhere.

That's a journey that I think should never stop.

Good to hear things are better OP, and best of luck to all those in the same boat.

MyriadOfMiracles Tue 25-Feb-14 18:25:09

Ty 2littlerascals i will get onto amazon this eve!
I am not doing cbt though. I have asked for some more intensive therapy on the nhs. The lady is going to see if its possible. I think cbt is fab but I would prefer a bit more therapy iyswim...

2littlerascals Tue 25-Feb-14 19:32:11

Yes OP cbt gets a bit formulaic. However the feeling good book is pretty helpful.

Zzzzmarchhare Wed 26-Feb-14 19:44:39

Very late to the thread- but no I don't think it ever leaves you. It can sometimes be a positive thing though- I went to a local support group and we were told to do force yourself to do nice things and just enjoy them, recognise that it is needed for you to be well.
I've carried this on, and whilst I still feel the PND is hovering I am much happier with life.
I keep going to get the mindfulness book- not sure what's stopping me

slightlyoverwhelmed Wed 26-Feb-14 19:51:54

I had PND after my second daughter (now 15 months) was born (although I was never diagnosed/treated). I found settling into motherhood with my first daughter pretty easy, she was a pretty easygoing baby and I lived in an area where I had a lot of friends with new babies and my husband was working reasonable hours and although there were days were I thought, "I haven't left the house much today", I didn't really feel that sense of motherhood-shock. I went back to work when my first daughter was 10 months old. By my second daughter, I had much more of a sense that my life had changed, we moved to a new area, for various reasons, it wasn't practical for me to go back to the same job and I just felt quite unsupported by my family. I was quite unwell at the end of the pregnancy and I found the birth pretty traumatic (although I recognise it wasn't the horror show that some people have). She didn't sleep well and was a much less easy-going baby, I really struggled for 6-8 months but overtime, life started to slot back into place again and I think there were a few key moments that for me just signified that things were getting back on track and that I had a good and strong relationship with my second daughter too. I still don't feel like a "good mum" in the way that I did before my second daughter was born but I am happy and I think that I will feel like that again. I don't blame myself for the depression - in retrospect, I was trying to make too many big life changes at once and I should have sorted out more support but it's easy to say that in hindsight. I don't feel guilty about being a working mum - the money has been very useful to us and I think you have to be honest with yourself about the kind of person that you are and I am too independent to want to be at home all the time. I am starting a different role in a couple of months and am pleased to be getting back to work. It is a really interesting part time role and I think will really suit me.

I have found Dorothy Rowe's books to be very helpful. I also found "Out of me" by Fiona Shaw to be a good read about PND.

This is a really helpful thread and it was really useful to me to hear other's stories. Thank you.

alicemac83 Thu 27-Feb-14 09:49:12

I'm really pleased you've found this thread helpful. I think it's a topic that's rarely discussed. Once you're 'better' everyone thinks that's it, and the only thing written about is it coming back with another baby. Nobody talks about the fact that it shapes our lives.
I think on some level it's always been with me since having DD 3 years ago. I used to love being at home, but even now I always plan a full weekend of activities so I can get out of the house, and if I have to stay at home with her if our nanny is ill I find the prospect quite daunting (even though it's always fine.) I think it's a trauma that takes a long time to get over, and also I still find it quite hard to accept that it happened to me. I always feel envious when friends have babies and feel happy from the start. But it's one of those things, and I'm sure will make us stronger in the end xxx

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