OMFG just found out DS has spent £1700 on ipod game!!!

(366 Posts)
splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 21:14:42

It's all in the title really. Still shaking, It's been going on since June> I hadn't noticed because the spending was masked by some unusual purchases over the last few months. Am livid! I've deleted 'Clash of Clans' banned the Ipod, grounded him, asked him to think of ways he can pay us back (he won't be able to). What the hell do I do? Can I get my money back. Do I report it as fraud? After all, I didn't allow it to happen. Help!

5madthings Mon 11-Nov-13 21:15:50

How old is he?

Who does the iPod belong to?

Who set up the bank details so he could spend the money?

Ifcatshadthumbs Mon 11-Nov-13 21:16:08

How old is he? You need to block in app purchases.

MirandaWest Mon 11-Nov-13 21:17:27

Was it in app purchases or apps?

Does he know your password?

Apple have been known to refund for these sort of things,

Shesparkles Mon 11-Nov-13 21:17:50

I believe Apple can be quite good at refunding in these kind if circumstances-has to be worth a try.
But why the hell did you allow in-app purchases??

lborolass Mon 11-Nov-13 21:18:09

There was a similar thread last week, if you can search for it there were some suggestions on how to go about getting it refunded and some success stories.

If you approach it right it seems you can have a pretty good chance to get some of it back. Have you disabled the purchases option.

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 21:19:17

Apple make it so that you have to provide bank details so can download anything - then the default setting is that you can download freely. He's 11

Wasn't the same amount as you shock but DD spent on an in app purchase when she first got her gadget and Apple were great with a fast refund.

People have def gotten money back but you need to sort your settings. DS has iTunes linked to my account but he doesn't have the password.
Turn off in app purchases.

Did he actually realise what he was doing?

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 21:26:20

I really appreciate all the advice.

Can anyone tell me about how to get a refund? Or point me towards the previous posts.

There was a pin number - he guessed it.

There have been SO many threads like this recently.

Good luck OP.

Pancakeflipper Mon 11-Nov-13 21:28:34

Wow. Well that's his Christmas pressies for the next 75 yrs sorted out then.

I really hope you get some money back on that.

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 21:30:11

I don't think he thought it was real. There has been a lot of crying. It's awful. DH and I feel abused. We had to cut back on a lot of things since DH lost his job a couple of years ago. DS only got an ipod coz he sold all his Star WArs lego. We are devastated.

He guessed the pin? Did he realise how much he was spending?

I emailed apple, they sent an email confirmation of money spent. Was this a one off spend?

MirandaWest Mon 11-Nov-13 21:32:24

How could you not notice £1,700? (I realise it was in smaller amounts) Although the emails about purchases don't come immediately they do come (although don't know about in app ones as have always turned them off so no one is tempted. Including me).

Glenshee Mon 11-Nov-13 21:32:26

To place an order you must be 18 years+ and be accessible by telephone. So this is a mistake. Absolutely ask for a full refund.

SilverApples Mon 11-Nov-13 21:33:52

If it's been going on since June, they might not refund the lot, he's had use of the apps for months. As others have said, this keeps happening.

5madthings Mon 11-Nov-13 21:34:25

Sorry but at 11 yes old and as he had to 'guess'the pin number he knew what he was doing. He may not have a total grasp of the value of it and obviously won't have added it all up but he knew what he was doing.

I say this as the mother of an 11yr old boy.

Yes you set your card up but then you go I to settings and set it so you can't buy in app purchases and so a password pin is needed. I have a nexus and this set up so I have to out a password in each time. My 11 and 8 ur olds knwo they are not allowed to buy anything on the nexus.

You can try and claim some back but I doubt you will be them to back date it to June.

Mattissy Mon 11-Nov-13 21:37:53

Bloody hell, I'd be shaking for weeks in that. I had £98 refunded for in app purchases made by DD. Go onto and it'll direct you to refunds.

HyvaPaiva Mon 11-Nov-13 21:40:17

It's certainly worth asking Apple as they have refunded for this sort of thing - although as it was ongoing, perhaps not. Be careful, though, OP because you said 'After all, I didn't allow it to happen' but you did: by allowing your child to use it with in-app purchases switched on, by not carefully checking your statements to the tune of £1700. I do sympathize but I wouldn't go down the 'fraud' route. It's inconceivable to call this fraud: it was your son purchasing on an ipod that you let him use. It wasn't set to prevent purchases and should have been. Sorry but I do hope you might have some luck with Apple.

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 21:40:28

I didn't notice because it was spread out and we took out some borrowing on the card - so I thought it was the interest! I'm mad that I had to borrow money to fund this sh*t!

FourAndDone Mon 11-Nov-13 21:42:36

I think you was very naive op. The first thing I did on all apple products was turn off in app purchases and pincode if necessary. My eldest is 7 and knows he can't buy anything or not without asking me first (that one time I let him buy somethingwink) so I would expect an 11 year old to know better. You don't even have to store your card details on there. I think I would delete them before handing the iPod back. Good luck with the refund confused

BanjoPlayingTiger Mon 11-Nov-13 21:43:32

It might be a good idea to unlink your credit card too. You don't have to enter credit card details, you can buy a gift card that will pre-load £15 or whatever the amount is on to it, and once that has run out he will have to buy himself another card, or stop buying things through the app store.

I don't know how you go about getting refunds, but good luck!

steeking Mon 11-Nov-13 21:44:11

You don't need a credit card for an itunes account . You can set it up speak that it only uses vouchers. In app purchases should be switched off.

Ratata Mon 11-Nov-13 21:44:51

This should help you with refunds, explain to them that it was a mistake you didn't know about:

Nerfmother Mon 11-Nov-13 21:45:32

Go to Settings - General - Restrictions- enter your pin- scroll down to enter password and set to immediately

SilverApples Mon 11-Nov-13 21:45:33

It was fraud, your son defrauded you.
Do you really want the police involved?

alwaysneedaholiday Mon 11-Nov-13 21:45:35

Having read this thread I have managed to put parental controls on ITunes, but not sure if I have stopped 'in app purchases'. Can anyone point me in the right direction please?

Sorry OP, and I really hope you get your money back.

Nerfmother Mon 11-Nov-13 21:46:12

Always . See my post above

Glenshee Mon 11-Nov-13 21:46:44
alwaysneedaholiday Mon 11-Nov-13 21:48:45

Sorry nerf cross-posted......thanks!

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 21:48:49

Thanks Ratata

I'm needing links, definitely feeling naive, and angry and emotional

Strumpetron Mon 11-Nov-13 21:49:12


He guessed the password? Well he bloody well knew what he was doing then didn't he. So that's even worse!

You can unlink the account, and change the password. Very silly for having purchases on but hey ho.

People really need to wise up with things like this, it seems to be happening an awful lot.

I'm actually shocked they give refunds for things like this.

IamInvisible Mon 11-Nov-13 21:50:16

I honestly don't know how you didn't notice if it has been going on since June. You get emails, not necessarily on the day, but IME within 72 hours and on my statements it says iTunes purchase. Don't you check?

AtticusMcPlatypus Mon 11-Nov-13 21:50:46

Had a friend whose DD did a similar thing to the tune of £700. He contacted Apple and had the whole lot refunded. Contact Apple would be my advice. I believe they are pretty reasonable in these circumstances.

IAlwaysThought Mon 11-Nov-13 21:50:51

He guessed your pin???? hmm

Did you not get the email notifications from Apple????

Did you update to IOS7?

Nerfmother Mon 11-Nov-13 21:51:49

Actually I think it's totally immoral to sell stupid in app crap that could ever total 1700 quid.
Inappcrap is my new word.

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 21:52:20

The default setting is not to down load freely. I have an iTunes account and a GooglePlay one. In both cases I need to enter the password.

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 21:53:00

And I get an email confirmation of every single purchase. I cannot believe you could go for month's without noticing.

IAlwaysThought Mon 11-Nov-13 21:53:26

Lots of good advice on old Mumsnet threads, google 'in app purchases'

This thread is recent and applicable to IOS7

How old is your son?

Strumpetron Mon 11-Nov-13 21:54:09

^Actually I think it's totally immoral to sell stupid in app crap that could ever total 1700 quid.
Inappcrap is my new word^

It's not immoral, it's only like downloadable content on an Xbox. It's hardly their fault kids are devious and parents don't use the correct safe guards.

optimusic Mon 11-Nov-13 21:54:24

Seriously, you thought that emails from Apple were interest on a loan, where it is stated iTunes? Did you not question why you were constantly being bombarded for interest?

Clash of clans isn't the problem here.

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 21:54:47

There were no email confirmations from Itunes - absolutely none - I have just checked.

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 21:55:59

Yes - it states it quite clearly on the credit card bill that it is an iTunes purchase.

SilverApples Mon 11-Nov-13 21:56:36

Check his email account, he could have changed the notification address.

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 21:57:20

My credit card company even phoned me one as there were a number of low value charges going through on my card - when I first got my kindle I think - to check it wasn't anything fraudulent.

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 21:57:57

There were no emails optimusic. I thought the credit card bills were higher than normal because we'd had to take a credit card loan.

Nerfmother Mon 11-Nov-13 21:58:22

I can't even stop in game purchases on the xbox so ds keeps buying 50p crap on minecraft.
It is totally immoral to charge £££ for a virtual doughnut or whatever. It is not immoral to sell a game on line; that is totally different.

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 21:59:16

I had just dawned on me that he must have changed the notification address..

I feel like I gave birth to Nick Leeson

optimusic Mon 11-Nov-13 21:59:46

Do you not check bank statements at all? Nothing stating Apple iTunes store or similar to question it?

Purchases it says on the pop up, how much it cost in actual money. It asks to confirm if you are sure. Of course he was sure. You have to accept responsibility as well, because sorry I don't think it's Apple's fault that you cannot be bothered to properly check your bank account.

Strumpetron Mon 11-Nov-13 21:59:55

There are ALWAYS emails so either they were 'opted out' of which I'm not sure you can even do, or they were directed elsewhere. You would have had hundreds.

And it states clearly ITUNES on your bank statement too.

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 21:59:59

But your card statement would itemise every purchase! My credit card is a long list of iTunes, Amazon and Google payments. It's the main use for it. You cannot possibly not have noticed. One month yes, but not several.

SomewhereovertheRainbow02 Mon 11-Nov-13 22:01:30

This happened to me 2 days ago!
I went on to the live chat in apple support and explained my situation and was given a refund and help on what restrictions to use!

curlew Mon 11-Nov-13 22:01:44

How did he "guess" the password?

SilverApples Mon 11-Nov-13 22:02:05

My CC is full of 99p daily deals for my kindle.
Everything itemised.
He's not Nick Leeson, this is very basic stuff. So simple an unsupervised child could do it. And did.

Strumpetron Mon 11-Nov-13 22:02:39

^I can't even stop in game purchases on the xbox so ds keeps buying 50p crap on minecraft.
It is totally immoral to charge £££ for a virtual doughnut or whatever. It is not immoral to sell a game on line; that is totally different^

The only thing that is immoral is people abusing it and stealing money from the bill payers. Lots of people - mostly adults- chose to buy add ons to improve their gaming. It isn't immoral for companies to offer those added extras just because people can't prevent their children from abusing it.

IamInvisible Mon 11-Nov-13 22:03:10

Someone has obviously changed the email address the notifications were going to, or getting to the emails and deleting them first. Either way though iTunes would show on the credit card statement.

Sorry OP, it looks like your son has been playing you like a fiddle.sad

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 22:04:00

I was given a refund using Candy Crush on the iPad early on - I bought another level, it didn't work and when I clicked on the link it charged me again. I ran up about £15 worth for nothing. I deleted the app and Apple refunded the money. It did not take long before I spotted it though. Have never had a problem with Google Play.

curlew Mon 11-Nov-13 22:04:36

"^I can't even stop in game purchases on the xbox so ds keeps buying 50p crap on minecraft. "

So take the xbox away. Simple.

5madthings Mon 11-Nov-13 22:05:22

Yes supervision is key. This is why mine are not allowed internet devices upstairs. The Xbox is in the living room and all purchases are password protected.

But my elder three know they are not allowed to buy stuff online, inapp purchases etc without me being there and inputting password. Each and every time they have to ask me and if they didnt they would lose the privelidge of using the nexus or Xbox or whatever device.

It must say on your cc statement?

optimusic Mon 11-Nov-13 22:05:29

Nerf do the controls on your account to stop this, or do a family setting I think it's called, which comes with parental controls. Better still take off your bank detail if you are unable to do the above.

Aarow Mon 11-Nov-13 22:07:33

It looks like your DS has been devious and knows exactly how much he was spending. sad for you.

Is it your iPod? If it's his, I'd sell it. If he has any consoles, sell them too. Anything to recover that money to within a reasonable limit- say £50- where the money could be recovered by not paying pocket money.

SilverApples Mon 11-Nov-13 22:09:04

I wonder what he's getting for the next ten birthdays and Christmases?

Shaky Mon 11-Nov-13 22:09:42

I bloody hate games/apps with all the ads. Yesterday I discovered that ds had clicked on the amazon app and had added 7 fireman Sam tablets to my basket. He will be 4 in a fortnight. Thankfully he couldn't complete the purchase.

Not helpful I know, sorry.
I hope you manage to get it sorted out soon flowers

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 22:09:55

My dd has a Nexus 7 set up on my Google account. I can see every transaction - not that she can make any as she doesn't have the password. She did once invite my entire contact list to join BakeStory or somesuch. blush But at least that was entirely visible to me and didn't cost me money.

IAlwaysThought Mon 11-Nov-13 22:11:03

He could have only changed your email notifications if he had your Apple ID password. Is it possible that you had previously turned off email notifications yourself?

5madthings Mon 11-Nov-13 22:13:00

After the last thread on this I went on our Xbox an tablet amd tried to buy an in app purchases it made it very clear I would be spending real money, and alsed for password etc to allow purchase and detailed the bank account etc.

I have sat and discussed this with my children and made it clear they are not to buy anything without checking with me first. Tbh we jsit use free apps amd they dotn buy any in app purchases. On the Xbox only we can download stuff/biuy stiff it's in the control account settings.

I was really paranoid after reading of these cases of kids spending lots so made sure to set controls.

I do think your son knew what he was doing sad

Def sell the iPod and strict controls now onwards.

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 22:13:21

And there is not a PIN number for Apple purchases but an account name and password. I cannot see how he could "guess" either.

lljkk Mon 11-Nov-13 22:14:13

Not condemning you OP, you're not first & won't be the last.
I am so grateful we were only stung for £50.
We don't allow any credit card details to be stored with our Apple IDs. EVER.
Throw yourself on mercy of someone, I think.

MrsMot Mon 11-Nov-13 22:14:36

He didn't have to guess your password.

Unless you set the password required time to 0 there's a default 15 minute window from you inputting your password to it being needed again so he could have set up the in-game purchase very easily.

My 5 yo did it... We did get the money refunded though. I think Apple are on slightly dodgy ground as they don't make it clear what the setting is - I certainly never consented to have my account 'open'.

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 22:15:28

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Tailz Mon 11-Nov-13 22:15:33

I am genuinely not trying to start a row but I can't quite see why Apple should refund ie if it was that your ds knew what he was doing and was being devious etc.

It's a hell of a lot of money and must be a horrible shock for you but I'm not sure it's Apples' fault? I'm happy to be corrected though as I'm just wondering what I would do and how I would handle it.

IamInvisible Mon 11-Nov-13 22:16:05

On ours, when you buy an in app purchase you click buy, the it asks for the password, the it gives you the option of continuing to buy or cancelling the purchase. You don't put a pin in.

5madthings Mon 11-Nov-13 22:17:45

I !am guessing he has maybe deleted the emails?

IamInvisible Mon 11-Nov-13 22:18:11

He's more than likely deleted the emails!

optimusic Mon 11-Nov-13 22:19:56

How very mature, saying you would slap me for pointing out the bloody obvious.

It doesn't matter if there were or not emails, there is banking transactions that are as clear as day on your statements.

stickysausages Mon 11-Nov-13 22:22:31

Can you check junk or recycle bins for deleted emails?

picnicbasketcase Mon 11-Nov-13 22:22:54

Wow, OP, how dreadful. That is a huge amount to get up to before he was found out. I hope you get some luck with a refund from Apple.

SynchroniseYourDogmas Mon 11-Nov-13 22:23:01

Check your spam folder in case the emails went in there.

SilverApples Mon 11-Nov-13 22:23:31

It is sad and worrying that he's done all this intentionally and with considerable planning. That he felt no guilt or concern that he was spending large amounts of someone else's money.
He is untrustworthy, and dishonest and that's tough to deal with in a family.

Have you checked your iCloud email inbox? Did you set up a gmail or email just for iTunes that you don't check?

Strumpetron Mon 11-Nov-13 22:25:54

OP what the fuck?

Sorry but it is absurd that you haven't checked your account statements properly since June. If you did this would have been picked up months ago.

lborolass Mon 11-Nov-13 22:26:25

I don't have any apple devices so don't know what screens you need to go through to make a purchase but I do have a credit card and find it a bit difficult to see how you could have missed the transactions for so long. That amount of money must have been lots of different transactions which would at the very least mean your bills would have looked very different to normal.

I think you're going to need a really good answer to that question when you contact apple if you want them on your side.

I agree with optimusic and have a bit less sympathy every time I read one of these threads. It's not rocket science to check your settings when you hand these things over to your kids. It's not rocket science to make sure your password is not guessable and in app purchases are off. If you cannot do things that your kids can do then you shouldn't be in charge of these things and you certainly shouldn't have a credit card linked to them. How much longer do you think apple is going to refund these 'mistakes'? It's been publicised enough now for people to know they need to be proactive about this.

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 22:30:20

God knows what happened to the emails. The truth is I thought I had it covered with the in-app purchase pin. It's an interesting moral quandary isn't it?

If I put a delicious cream cake in front of someone with a cream cake weakness am I complicit in a crime if they steal it?

Is Apple guilty of exploiting a child's natural vulnerability?

Am I an idiot - optimusic thinks so - ?

AndIFeedEmGunpowder Mon 11-Nov-13 22:31:34

Actually I agree with PPs that the extent in app purchases are promoted and how easy it is to buy them is immoral. I have almost spent real money several times and only realised at the last minute and I am a grown up.

These games can be quite addictive and often target children. You are inveigled into buying bundles of 'gems' or 'coins' to spend improving your game which distance you from the reality that you are spending real cash. It isn't transparent. I can definitely see how it might feel like Monopoly money.

TSSDNCOP Mon 11-Nov-13 22:32:42

Frankly OP I had a lot of sympathy until your outburst to Optimistic. She might have been blunt, but she's right and I think you must know that.

Other posters have had this problem, and with what I imagine is a mahoosive amount of grovelling Apple have refunded.

I think you do need to be thinking about how you're going to approach that, because losing your rag won't help you.

What are you going to do about DS?

SilverApples Mon 11-Nov-13 22:32:44

It has to be someone else's fault then, OP?
Preferably not yours, or your son's?
He's 11 and a skilled user of IT, not 5.

IAlwaysThought Mon 11-Nov-13 22:32:59

OP. If your son has access to your Apple ID or restrictions pin then he has free region to look at whatever he likes on the Internet, including porn unless he can only access the internet via 'controlled' networks?

Floggingmolly Mon 11-Nov-13 22:34:40

Why the hell should the money be refunded? How would Apple know your 11 year old was cheeky enough to guess your PIN number and you didn't notice until he'd clocked up £1700? hmm

damnitchloe Mon 11-Nov-13 22:35:21

So sorry for you OP, what a horrible discovery. I hope you have some joy with Apple. For what it's worth, I agree with Nerfmother that it's immoral to sell £1,700 in an app. No one would ever buy an app for even 10% of that. I hope Apple give you at least some of your money back.
I also sympathise with not looking in detail at credit card statements every month. It's easily done, especially when you know it won't be pretty. Hope you have some happy news.

IamInvisible Mon 11-Nov-13 22:36:04

I'm getting quite sick of people blaming Apple for this sort of thing happening.

If anyone is to take the blame it is the person who gave the child the product without ensuring all the settings were as such that they couldn't make in app purchases.

However, this has been going on for 5 months. Emails are missing. I would suggest someone in this case had a fair idea of what they were doing, unfortunately.

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Mon 11-Nov-13 22:36:06

But would the cream cake appear on your bank statement OP?! I genuinely do feel sorry for you but I really think you do have to take some responsibility.

Ecuador Mon 11-Nov-13 22:37:52

I think that posters thinking he knew exactly what he was doing are wrong. An 11 year old would not understand how much money £1700 was especially if it was spread in small amounts over several months.

I was in exactly the same situation a year or so ago with same aged child, I had changed my email address and not updated it so also didn't get any emails whatsoever alerting me to any purchases. Could this be the case with you OP?

I did notice the minute Apple started charging my bank account though and rang both them and the bank immediately. Apple did refund it and my son was absolutely beside himself with remorse - I honestly believe he got carried away and really didn't 'twig' that it was real money he was spending.

I hate the way that you have to opt out of these purchases rather than having to opt in.

Is your son remorseful OP? Hope you get it sorted, I do remember what an awful feeling it was realising what had happened.

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 22:40:09


splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 22:40:10

It's interesting that there is a baying crowd always after someone's blood on mumsnet! It's cool, that's democracy! But haven't things shifted somewhat with the availability of things that are dangerous? Porn, f***ing gems?

Is Apple getting away with what the tobacco companies were getting away with in the 1950s and 60s? I believe in individual responsibility but Apple cunningly circumvents responsibility by having a default factory setting which allows inapp purchases and making you give credit card details to have an I-tunes account.

Strumpetron Mon 11-Nov-13 22:40:16

11 year olds must be very naive then in this day and age hmm

I knew damn well what I was doing whn I was spending £2.50 a week on picture messages on my Nokia when I was 11 - yes it wasn't that long ago!

God remember those crappy picture messages.

IAlwaysThought Mon 11-Nov-13 22:41:46

The restriction pin is 4 digits long so you have a 1 in 9999 chance of guessing it right each time you guess. It only takes 10 incorrect guesses before you are prevented from trying again for another hour.

OP do you know what version of IOS your sons IPod was using?

Strumpetron Mon 11-Nov-13 22:42:04

Oh op stop it, that comparison is ridiculous. Apple have made announcement after announcement, have help pages specifically set up for people to prevent this from happening and give refunds! Stop trying to shift the blame. They are doing nothing wrong.

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Mon 11-Nov-13 22:42:58

I have an iTunes account and I have removed my credit card details. You don't need to have card details stored OP. Would you be ok with a baying mob if we were baying at Apple?

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 22:43:30

Every single Apple purchase is listed on your bill. If you buy several things together, they group them, yes. But unless you never look at your credit card bill, you must have noticed. But you say, you noticed the higher amounts, so you must have looked....

SilverApples Mon 11-Nov-13 22:43:42

I'm a Y6 teacher, I've known rather a lot of 11 year olds of all sorts and talents.
Let us know what Apple decide, OP. It will be useful for the next time.

lborolass Mon 11-Nov-13 22:44:35

Please explain how you didn't see the entries on the credit card statement.

I don't see how you missed them, you've said you're in a difficult financial position yet you continue to blame apple.

SilverApples Mon 11-Nov-13 22:44:59

OP, do you have different passwords for everything, and different PIN numbers? You need to.

Wuldric Mon 11-Nov-13 22:45:02

On holiday two years ago, one member of our family ran up a bill of £3000 with some kind of dongle thingy that he was using because the villa had no wifi. He thought he was spending £15.

It wasn't either of the kids. It was the man I flipping well married.

I'm trying to say that people, even fully grown adults, just don't really register with all that stuff. Nothing actually tangible arrives so you don't realise what you are spending.

Get onto them, they'll refund it. And supervise him properly going forward.

Floggingmolly Mon 11-Nov-13 22:45:08

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SilverApples Mon 11-Nov-13 22:45:35

Oh, and you need to change them on a regular basis.

AndIFeedEmGunpowder Mon 11-Nov-13 22:46:55

I don't think it's Apple's fault per se. I think apps, especially games with in app purchasing, have taken off incredibly quickly and need more regulation, especially if they are games like the Simpsons or Clash of Clans which are likely to be played by children.

Ofcom strictly regulates more traditional forms of advertising. You are told to seek the bill payers permission before phoning in a 15p vote for Strictly but can spend £24.99 during a game without an 'are you sure?'!

I think this area needs looking at.

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 22:48:02

For the Optimusic gang- don't worry, metaphysically, I'm wearing a hair shirt and you can stone me to internet death if you like!!

I'm actually here because this is quite a tough thing to deal with, like when I was breastfeeding DD. I'm grateful to all those who have unconditionally offered insight and/or support.

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 22:49:11

Wuldric - they are trying to change EU law to prevent these ridiculous data roaming charges. It is not well enough publicised.

IamInvisible Mon 11-Nov-13 22:49:20

You do sort of get an 'are you sure'. You click buy, they put in the password, then they ask if you want to continue or cancel the purchase. They don't just take the money straight away.

NewBlueCoat Mon 11-Nov-13 22:49:23

Oh fgs. Of course an 11 year old (assuming NT) knows how much money £1700 is!

OP, whose fault do you think this is?

Apps exist.
Inapp purchases exist (whether or not you think they represent value for money)

You let your child have a device, with which he can buy these. Without restricting it. And having entered all your details and set up an iTunes account.

There is no need to have your card details stored, or even linked in the first place.

The default setting is not completely open, either. Never has been on any Apple product I've had.

iPods are not toys. They have some startling and shocking capabilities. Parents need to grow up and wise up before handing them over to children.

stickysausages Mon 11-Nov-13 22:49:54

Is this a genuine post? Or someone sparking a debate?

TSSDNCOP Mon 11-Nov-13 22:50:00

No ones after anyone's blood, stop being such a drama llama. Some people haven't agreed with you. Some people have lost empathy because you're directing your anger toward the wrong source. And lots and lots have been sympathetic and offered advice.

Talk to Apple in the morning, I suggest in a "throw yourself at their mercy kind of way" given the gaping holes in your domestic checks. I hope you get a refund.

Cautionary tale fr the rest of us though.

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 22:50:04

You have not yet answered the question about your credit card bills and how you failed to notice.

Ecuador Mon 11-Nov-13 22:50:52

Floggingmolly that is very insulting to suggest the OP's son is backward.

I would suggest it's pretty easy to guess lots of people's PIN given that we all seem to put in our birthdays or the most frequently used one Christmas Day!

IAlwaysThought Mon 11-Nov-13 22:51:54

OP, don't worry about the people judging you. It was very daft but we have all done daft things haven't we? It's weird that other posters that have started threads like this have had more sympathetic replies. I think other posters have been more accepting of the fact that they have been a bit daft though. IYSWIM confused

Anyhow.. I think you have a real chance of getting your money back regardless of the fact you didn't notice the expenditure for a long time.

Ecuador Mon 11-Nov-13 22:52:37

NewBlueCoat how on earth would an 11 year old necessarily know what £1700 was in real terms? As I said up-thread especially spread over a number of months.

God the most I ever give mine to spend is a tenner!

Crikeyblimey Mon 11-Nov-13 22:53:16

People are being supportive and offering g good advice OP but I'm sure they'd be even more supportive if you would admit to some responsibility.

I have an 11 year old ds so I know what they are capable of. But - really, you know you should have had more insight into what he was playing / if he was spending / whether he'd ever bought anything / and you know damn well you should have checked all your statements better.

That said - try and contact Apple, throw yourself on their mercy (and don't blame them) and see if they will refund some of it.

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 22:53:21

I think the fact OP has let it go on so long will severely hinder her attempts to claim it was an "accident" to be honest.

IamInvisible Mon 11-Nov-13 22:55:35

Your Apple ID must be a valid email address (such as Your password must be at least eight characters including a number, an uppercase letter, and a lowercase letter. You cannot use spaces, the same character three times in a row, your Apple ID, or a password you've used in the last year.

You don't have a PIN for iTunes.

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 22:56:05

I wish it were a fake post!!! I am angry though, for a lot of reasons. With my son, with myself, with games etc.

I'm just not sure how it helps anyone to go online and metaphorically 'throw stones at others'. I'm not religious but..

I would suggest it's pretty easy to guess lots of people's PIN given that we all seem to put in our birthdays or the most frequently used one Christmas Day!

Well then there's the problem. These things are serious and if you put such little effort into securing them then you take your chances. The op seems to be willing to blame anyone except herself and her son who are the only two people to blame.

Beat your chest and wail if you like op. You're the one who has paid £1700 to do it, not me.

NewBlueCoat Mon 11-Nov-13 22:56:20

Ecuador, are you seriously suggesting that your average 11 year old doesn't know that £1700 is a fuck of a lot of money?

Or that spending £10 every day for about 25 weeks is a lot of money?

Come on. 11 year olds are not stupid. They know (mostly through having to learn to stretch that £10 that is the most cash they usually have) that to spend eg £10 every day for weeks on end is not realistic.

TSSDNCOP Mon 11-Nov-13 22:57:07

Dave there was a poster with a similar problem recently, the DC had been spending across the summer holiday via an Xbox if I recall correctly.

The App retailer made the refund, and therefore got quite a lot of good publicity on a thread on Mumsnet.

They had also confiscated the DC's games console to offset the presumed costs and as punishment for the DC.

That poster did get a lot of the same WTF comments from posters, but with their help got the refund organised.

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 22:58:24

You still never answered the question about your credit card. It is not throwing stones, but you are blaming all and sundry and yet YOU yourself are mostly to blame here.

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 23:00:47

I'm not blaming anyone - I'm asking for help!!

would it help people to know that I spent most of the evening cry and/or screaming at my son?

That's what I mean by blood.

Will talk to apple tmw and report back

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 23:01:09

For not having proper controls and for not checking your card expenditure.

splodge2001 Mon 11-Nov-13 23:01:09

crying not cry

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Mon 11-Nov-13 23:05:08

DaveGahan I don't think we'll ever get an answer to your question I'm afraid!

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 23:05:28

Apple can be really reasonable tbh. I just worry that you have left it all this time sad

MissWimpyDimple Mon 11-Nov-13 23:07:30

I've dealt with this a fair bit. You definitely are asked for the long Apple ID password. It's not a pin and it has to have letters and numbers and all sorts. I don't think anyone could "guess" that, but if you used something obvious, or your DS knew it anyway then I can see how it happened. But the lack of emails is strange.

As for not noticing. I can see how that can happen. We are talking about 6 months here. I also think that it's possible for your DS to have not quite understood the enormity of it as the amounts were probably 69p a time.

Ecuador Mon 11-Nov-13 23:08:42

They would know £1700 was a lot of money but I honestly believe it would probably be as unimaginable as say £45 million would be to most of us.

Tenner a week? They would probably just dismiss it especially as there were no consequences or appearances of 'real' money anywhere.

Like an adult running up a credit card bill and not really equating it to real money have never done anything so stupid obviously

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 23:09:04

MissWimpy - but you forget that all those 69p etc are itemised on your credit card bill.

Hopasholic Mon 11-Nov-13 23:09:13

This OP has me sooo wound up! Accept responsibility FFS!
My DS did a similar thing with Microsoft points on the X-box. Not £1700 worth though but a few hundred pounds over several months. He was mortified but we hadn't noticed as the credit card was rarely used and the balance cleared automatically each month. It would never have been a problem had we noticed straight away.

He shouldn't have done it. We should have noticed. It never even occurred to us to try and get the money back from Microsoft as DS knew full well what he was doing, just hadn't realised how much it all added up to.

He offered to sell his x-box but we all learnt our lesson, you need to too.

It's the modern day equivalent of getting the phone bill in after spending too much time on dial-a-disc grin <shows age>

IAlwaysThought Mon 11-Nov-13 23:11:15

Splodge. I think it would be useful if you did come back and update. There are regular threads like this on Mumsnet and it's useful for other to know how other people have got on.

Good luck
(I think you will get your money back)

Crikeyblimey Mon 11-Nov-13 23:12:43

£1700 at 69p a go is almost 2500 purchases! Over 6 months, that's 410 a month! Your cc statements must be very long!

I genuinely wish you luck with Apple tomorrow and I hope they've changed their ways recently. A few years ago my apple account was hacked and someone spent £250 on software downloads in China! Apple wouldn't refund a thing but as the money came from my cc (and I noticed right away) the cc company refunded me ( after quite a palarva).

Good luck.

optimusic Mon 11-Nov-13 23:15:32

How is it throwing stones when people are asking a very valid question of why did you not check your credit card account?

You think that the people at Apple are going to say, ok so you didn't notice for 5 months that we have been charging you, not a problem, here's all your money back? No. They will want answers. But if the email has been changed like you are also claiming, you will fail the initial security question and they possibly will not talk to you.

To check the email that is being used, on the ipod , open the App store app. Click featured and scroll down. If the ipod is still logged in, the emial will be written there as clear as day. If not, try and log in with the details you used to set the account up. If the email hasn't been changed, then you ds really does know what he was doing because he has deleted the emails.

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 23:16:31

Dial-a-Disc? <<reminscent sigh>>

IAlwaysThought Mon 11-Nov-13 23:17:02

I would still like to know what iOS your sons iPAD was running. smile

mummyxtwo Mon 11-Nov-13 23:17:10

In your son's defence, it's easier done that you'd imagine. I used to play a facebook game where you could essentially buy more power for your character, or pay to speed construction up / a dozen other advantages. I'm embarrassed to admit that I actually did that a few times thinking that it wasn't a large amount of money. Actually it turned out to be in the region of £5 or more each time, and the extra points / power didn't go very far. The money very quickly mounts. Thankfully I remembered that I am a grown adult and didn't want to waste our hard earned cash on pointless but very addictive computer games. I totally understand your upset, rage and feeling of being robbed by him, but believe me he will likely have been shocked and horrified beyond belief himself. That doesn't make him any less thoughtless and irresponsible, but I do disagree with some of the posts that 'he knew what he was doing'. No, in fairness, I doubt he had any idea the cost would escalate so horrifically. I really hope apple are understanding and helpful. There have been a couple of positive posts on here from people who have had refunds, so stand your ground and hope it goes well. All the best.

Crikeyblimey Mon 11-Nov-13 23:18:53

Hmmmm - having just written my last post, are you sure it was your ds? As I said, my account was hacked from China. I noticed first when I logged in and my home county had been changed to China!! Didn't think too much of it, changed it back and the. When I got my cc bill, there was the spend.

How did you discover what he'd spent?

Newshoesplease Mon 11-Nov-13 23:20:29

It's irresponsible of apple to aim a game at children where amounts like this can be spent. I certainly do not think the OP is to blame!

Ecuador Mon 11-Nov-13 23:22:31

Dial-a-Disc???!!!!! Omg I had so forgotten all about that! I do remember furtively ringing the number and then quickly putting the phone down after listening for the prescribed 3 minutes, so funny how innocent that seems now in comparison to all this above <wistful and old>.

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Mon 11-Nov-13 23:22:32

Apple are a business they are not the moral guardians of our Nation's youth!

NewBlueCoat Mon 11-Nov-13 23:23:24

Ecaudor, not a tenner a week. A tenner a day, for 25 weeks worth of consecutive days... very easily noticeable, I would think. And very easy to realise you shoudln't be doing it.

I do understand the argument of 'you don't get anythign tangible, therefore it isn't a 'real' spend'. BUt then, given that line of thinking, a device should not be handed over to a child without securing it in some way.

If inapp purchases weren't thought of, what about other restrictions - giving an 11 year old an internet capable device with absolutely no restrictions on it at all is asking for some kind of trouble. There surely isn't anyone anywhere who would actually think that was a good idea?

Ecuador Mon 11-Nov-13 23:28:06

Ok a tenner a day is a lot <crap at maths>

DaveGahanAndADeckchair Mon 11-Nov-13 23:31:50

Op should have suitable controls set up on the technology she chooses to give her children.

Wuldric Mon 11-Nov-13 23:35:38

Dial-a-disc - that so takes me back smile

I did that too!

liveforhols Mon 11-Nov-13 23:35:49

This happened to a friend of mine the other week. Her kids were on clash of the clans and clocked up £ 270 in one afternoon. It appears that the in app purchases for this game do not require a password and gems ( or whatever) may be purchased whenever.The kids, age 11 and 9 did not realise it was ' real' money. It is relatively easy to build up the amount as the amount increases with every purchase of the gems so it doesn't take long to be buying a gem at 60 odd quid a throw. The parents spoke to apple and explained the incident. Apple refunded all of the amount as it was a ' first offence' . Apparently that is their policy as long as you apply within a certain time scale, not sure what this is. 90 days sounds familiar. I'm not sure how you would get on with this though over a longer period of time. The info will be on the apple website.

SilverApples Mon 11-Nov-13 23:37:33

Fair enough Dave, but these threads crop up as often as the 'OMG our passports have expired and we are due on safari next week. What can I do?'
So it's only logical to a percentage of MNetters.
Like having passwords and PINS that are not easy to guess, and changing them on a regular basis.

IAlwaysThought Mon 11-Nov-13 23:58:27

LivForHols. You simply can't buy gems for Clash of Clans without an Apple ID password. It could be that your friend entered the password once for something else and her kids made the purchases within 15 minutes. It's possible to spend a lot quickly as a chest of gems costs £69.99! shock

My ipad settings are set to require a password EVERY time I make a purchase. I think it is very risky to have it set at 15 minutes, especially if you have kids.

lljkk Tue 12-Nov-13 06:37:52

I don't think any 11yo can really understand the value of £1700.

curlew Tue 12-Nov-13 06:52:02

They may not be able to fully contextualise £1700, but they can sure as hell understand that using someone else's password without asking is wrong. Apart from anything else they are told every 5 minutes at school as they bang on about internet safety.

Norudeshitrequired Tue 12-Nov-13 07:00:38

I don't think any 11yo can really understand the value of £1700.

My 9 year old understands that £1700 is a hell of a lot of money and that it would be enough to pay for the food shopping for many weeks or have a decent family holiday.
There is no way my 9 year old would dare spend £1700 on in purchase apps. But then I take no chances whatsoever and don't put card details on the tablets that he uses.

OP- I hope you get a refund.

duckyfuzz Tue 12-Nov-13 07:01:56

I get an email every time I buy anything using my iTunes account, doesn't everyone?! Cannot imagine not checking my cc bills to this extent. I don't have a cc linked to google play so no purchases can be made by dcs on their nexus, it's not that complicated really.

So £1700 over 5 months is roughly £300 a month. How did you manage to miss this OP? Once is possibly understandable but 5 times? And what was it that finally brought it to your attention?

Mattissy Tue 12-Nov-13 07:15:48

I've just told my only just 12 yo boy that someone spent £1700 on in app purchases and he most certainly understood, he said he could've bought 4 iPads for that.

Maybe he doesn't quite understand earning it or household bills but he gets it's a hell of a lot of money.

splodge2001 Tue 12-Nov-13 07:27:57

Morning! Feeling utterly depressed.

For those keen to know - I didn't notice the spending because we took a loan out on the card plus I cancelled my card so for the last 4 months the bills have been different.

I deleted clash of clans and banned him from a social eve at school which he's been looking forward to for weeks.

IamInvisible Tue 12-Nov-13 07:39:05

He wouldn't have been able to make the purchases if you had cancelled the card linked to your iTunes account. My bank recently cancelled my card due to fraud, from that day I couldn't even update my apps until I linked a new one.

splodge2001 Tue 12-Nov-13 07:40:07

it was linked to my husband's card

optimusic Tue 12-Nov-13 07:45:27

So now it's the card company fault for allowing a cancelled card to be continued to be used? I certainly do not know why you are blaiming Apple then, it is not their fault. Your gripe is with yourself, your child and your card company in that order.

optimusic Tue 12-Nov-13 07:47:07

Cross posts. So why bother telling us about your card when the device is linked to another persons card.
That's even worse. Two people who were not bothered to check transactions.

Did you bother to check the email used on the device yet?

IAlwaysThought Tue 12-Nov-13 07:52:25

Optimusic. Err, the OP didn't say she was blaming the card company confused. You are either inventing things or have misread her posts.

I think the OP feels bad enough already there is no need for you to keep going on and on at her.

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Tue 12-Nov-13 07:54:33

That still doesn't explain why you physically didn't check your cc statements though? I don't quite understand what you've said OP, you took out a loan on the card but then cancelled it?

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Tue 12-Nov-13 07:54:53

That still doesn't explain why you physically didn't check your cc statements though? I don't quite understand what you've said OP, you took out a loan on the card but then cancelled it?

splodge2001 Tue 12-Nov-13 07:58:32

Opti - I not blaming anyone - I'm explaining.

Are you 'rent an insult'?

splodge2001 Tue 12-Nov-13 08:02:02

the cards are on the same account - we took a loan out and cancelled one of the cards, so the bills each month were going to be very diff.

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Tue 12-Nov-13 08:05:00

But you still didn't check your statements? Opti sisnt actually insulting you OP, she's asking direct questions. I'd imagine that Apple may ask you similar questions and I'd suggest not getting this defensive with them if you want to get anywhere.

optimusic Tue 12-Nov-13 08:05:29

You are not explaining a question that has been repeatidly asked - why didn't either of you bother to check your CC account?

Have you checked the email used on the device yet?

You think we are harsh, need slapping and insulting you? Wait until you deal with the people at Apple because they will have some very tough questions for you. None of which you have bothered to explain.

5madthings Tue 12-Nov-13 08:07:15

But to will have itemsied on the cc bill the payments to apple!

I asked my 11yr old, he knows this is a lot of money and knew he wouldbe for the high jump if he ever pulled a stunt like this!

LittleBearPad Tue 12-Nov-13 08:09:44

The total would have been different but the purchases would still have been itemised. Didn't you think you were paying a lot of interest and check.

Tiredemma Tue 12-Nov-13 08:13:00

What has your DH said about this?

Floggingmolly Tue 12-Nov-13 08:15:55

How were the bills going to be very different? confused. We have a joint credit card account with two cards; the bill still just reflects whatever transactions have gone through that month. If only one of us uses it, it's generally less, not more.
And cancelling one of the cards would simply mean one of us no longer had access, not that the account was deactivated...
You sound quite confused, op, and yet you plan to try to have the charge reversed; without actually fully understanding how it happened? hmm

BasilBabyEater Tue 12-Nov-13 08:18:03


I am at this moment thanking my lucky stars that I'm too poor to even consider my DC's having this sort of gadget. What a fucking nightmare.

So sorry this has happened splodge, no point beating yourself up about not checking the credit card bills properly, good luck with the Apple phone call, I hope they refund you.

IAlwaysThought Tue 12-Nov-13 08:27:30

Neither the OP or her DH checked their CC statement. It was obviously a silly thing to do but they are not the first people to make this type of mistake.
Her DH could have thought she was doing it and she. Could have thought her DH was doing it. Hopefully, it won't make any difference to Apple and they will still refund the OP.
I am sure the OP knows that she has cocked up big time but what is done is done. She didn't do it on purpose and she doesn't deserve the bitchy comments that are coming from the minority of posters.

I would be interested to know a few more details about how this happened, I would like to know if her son guessed the devise 'pin' or whether he guessed her Apple ID. I am also curious as to why she wasn't receiving email notifications.

I get the impression that she really doesn't understand how in-app purchases work - I don't think this is that unusual. It's a REALLY BAD plan and the OP knows that now. There is no need to keep slating her.

BitOutOfPractice Tue 12-Nov-13 08:35:17

Well this thread has certainly made me tighten up my security! I do receive emails every time there's a purchase and it itemises everything because I use some of them for expenses claims.

You've been a bit of a narna op. Perhaps you'd get more sympathy if you said "oh lord I've been a bit of a narna. Can you help please?" Rather than all the snarky comments.

Anyway, good luck getting some cash back from apple

curlew Tue 12-Nov-13 08:36:59

I just hate the thought of having to "tighten up security" to stop your child defrauding you. That's the issue here, surely?

BitOutOfPractice Tue 12-Nov-13 08:47:29

I don't think either of mine would defraud me but they might do it without thinking. (Only once mind because I get emails!) But it's worthwhile to do in case you lose your phone or tablet isn't it?

My Dd2 (10) has made several in app purchases on my iPad. But she always comes and asks me first and brings me the cash (exact money! grin) to pay me on the spot. It's only ever 99p or a couple of quid but she knows it's real money and that it would be wrong to spend it without asking.

futureforward Tue 12-Nov-13 08:49:36

But don't you go through statements???

SilverApples Tue 12-Nov-13 08:50:37

Does it help to think of it more like putting the bleach in a locked cupboard, and keeping sharp knives out of reach and limiting a child's access to adult content curlew? Until your child is mature enough to cope with those challenges?

thistlelicker Tue 12-Nov-13 08:53:25

The person using the account must have known the password as you need to enter it every purchase u make. Also as others have said its a password for purchases on all smart gadgets ie iPad iPod iPhone even android.

One one hand the op said she cancelled her card, then said it was her husband card, either way it was still connected to the same credit card and regardless of payments you would need to open the thing to know how much top pay especially as the ops ayes it's different each month.

I think the op won't answer some questions because she is embarrassed but ultimately she is in error for first of all connecting it to a cc. Not deactivating settings. And not checking the cc statement properly

Wish u well op

IAlwaysThought Tue 12-Nov-13 08:53:27

BitOfPractice. I really wouldn't let your DD have your Apple ID password. Rather than her coming to you with the change I would get her to come to you so that you can input the password.
Even if you totally trust your DD it is still sensible to keep the password private. Even more so if you have a credit card linked to the account.

ICameOnTheJitney Tue 12-Nov-13 08:56:12

The OP doesn't HAVE to explain why she missed the statement information. She just did...MN isn't a court of law ffs.

BitOutOfPractice Tue 12-Nov-13 08:56:37

IAlwaysThought she hasn't got my iTunes password thanks. I'm not a complete idiot

But this thread has shown me something I didn't know (and perhaps you didn't either) that inApp purchases don't need a password and the default setting is open. You can change it to require a PIN though, which is what I have just done. HTH

thistlelicker Tue 12-Nov-13 08:57:33

Sorry but how can u justify trying to claim back £1700 when you can't even answer the main question that even Apple will ask her!! If she can't answer it it apple the there no point in even asking so let's hope that she can answer apple when they ask her

BitOutOfPractice Tue 12-Nov-13 08:58:45

Thistlelicker no you don't need a password for inApp purchases. It is different from iTunes. You can set it to be pin protected though

So it would seem that the op isn't the only narna here then!

curlew Tue 12-Nov-13 08:59:18

"Does it help to think of it more like putting the bleach in a locked cupboard, and keeping sharp knives out of reach and limiting a child's access to adult content curlew? Until your child is mature enough to cope with those challenges?"

I wouldn't do any of those things with an 11 year old either. There is a big difference between preventing accidents and preventing theft.

BitOutofPractice- mine do that too. The money goes in the dinner money tin next to the door. It's a good system!

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Tue 12-Nov-13 08:59:56

No, you're right, she doesn't HAVE to explain, but I'd imagine that Apple will ask the same question so she'd do well to consider not getting overly defensive and avoiding the question with them

thistlelicker Tue 12-Nov-13 09:02:06

Bit - I'm sure I'm not the only person on this thread that didn't know you could change the settings so thanks it would appear I am "complete Narna " ...... Same as until u changed the settings so we all can be Narna together :-)

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Tue 12-Nov-13 09:02:30

And yes you do need a password for in app purchases, or at least you have done on all of the many games I've bought stuff for.

BitOutOfPractice Tue 12-Nov-13 09:04:13

Thistle I freely admit to being a narna on an almost daily basis!! Like I said, this thread has taught me something I didn't know! And obviously a lot of us didn't!

BitOutOfPractice Tue 12-Nov-13 09:05:42

BigOrsnge it would appear not as I've just changed my setting from completely open to pin protected. Maybe it's an ios7 thang

slindile Tue 12-Nov-13 09:08:23

what a shock.

i totally get why it was missed. i would phone apple and see what they can do. absolutely awful.

and i think the factory setting should be a pin, which still wouldn't have helped you as your ds guessed it.

he's one clever cookie that one.

thistlelicker Tue 12-Nov-13 09:08:49

How much of this error is down to parental responsibility ? Responsibility of apple? Andy he responsibility of the user, that if it definitely is the 11 yr old ???

Would be interesting to hear apple take on this issue that's clearly long term problem

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Tue 12-Nov-13 09:15:58

Bit I don't know if it's different depending on it you have in app purchases on/off, so maybe that's it?

Peetle Tue 12-Nov-13 09:16:25

I think you chose to have a password when you're setting the App Store account up, and if you don't, you don't. There is probably some setting to add one - google will help; there are dozens of Apple fora for this sort of query. I have to enter a password (which the DTs don't know) even to install a free app and have "in app purchases" turned off all the time. Otherwise we'd have been bankrupted by Temple Run by now.

Preciousbane Tue 12-Nov-13 09:18:45

Bigorange has made a very valid point about Apple asking how nothing was noticed for six months. I actually think they probably won't refund on this occasion.

I know that currently the 1700 is the biggest thing on your mind op but borrowing money against a CC is one of the worst ways of borrowing cash, had you tried all other avenues? I think that this apple problem has highlighted a need to go through the way you handle your finances.

Because even though you have refused to specifically answer if you went through your CC statements you either didn't at all or you didn't understand them.

SavoyCabbage Tue 12-Nov-13 09:23:48

That's true Precious. Apple are going to want to know how it happened.

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Tue 12-Nov-13 09:27:39

I think what always winds me up with these threads is the way that some people act like Apple devices are some kind of Rosetta Stone with an unfathomable operating system. I have an iPhone and I have a game on it which was free, but which has in app purchases for extra life etc. The month before DD was born I had a lot of free time on my hands, so I was playing this game loads. I realised I was buying extra life a little to often for my liking and I needed to stop myself. Logical first stop for me was to try and remove payment details, went onto iTunes, my account, payment info (all done via my phone app), and clicked 'none'. No one told me how to do that, and I didn't need a manual to tell me. Yes the in app purchase settings may be obtuse but it's easy enough to take other steps to prevent this.

lborolass Tue 12-Nov-13 09:40:07

At the start I had sympathy for the OP but it's gone now as I just can't understand how someone who has said above that she has financial difficulties at the moment doesn't check every statement every month.

Passwords are just a red herring, every single one of us has a responsibility to make sure transactions on our bank and credit card statements are correct to avoid just this type of problem/frauds/errors etc

Apple will probably ask exactly the same questions, are you going to try and fob them off with cancelled cards and loan payments?

Oh op I'm so sorry.

In my view the recriminations are useless. Could've should've would've if etc are meaningless once a situation occurs.

It was stupid but not malicious. Try for a refund. Dry the tears.

And learn from the info how to not do this again. (And keep up to date on it/apple stuff!)

attheendoftheendofmytether Tue 12-Nov-13 10:39:40

You definitely don't have to have a password or pin for all in app purchases and you don't always get emails. It would be perfectly possible for the OPs scenario to occur, except for the fact that bank statements are blindingly clear.

We had a similar situation, fortunately we both check statements right away and noticed DS's spending that way (he was 7 and didn't realise he was spending real money). Apple were really really helpful, gave us both an phone tutorial and refunded immediately. DH is very tech savvy but had messed up when synchronising devices and left DS's ipod unprotected. He now checks it regularly to make sure the protections (for internet as well as purchases) are actually working.

OP statements are there to protect you from all sorts of things. Anyone can be out there spending your money in on any account or card and you'll never know if you don't check your statement. But I guess you know that now!

mummyxtwo Tue 12-Nov-13 10:43:58

Neither the OP or her DH checked their CC statement. It was obviously a silly thing to do but they are not the first people to make this type of mistake.

Agree with the above. Yes we should all be responsible with our money and keep a close check on our bank accounts. Not everyone does for varying reasons - lack of time and energy, or not feeling able to face the stress of looking at the accounts. Some people do go for the burying head in the sand option and hope it'll all be okay. Whatever the reason, the OP needs to find a better way of managing and organising finances, for sure, but hardly needs to be berated for mistakes made and has surely learned after this experience. I hope you can get it / some of it back, OP.

A colleague of dh's came into work fuming, and said that his 9yo son had managed to purchase a horse box on his eBay account for £9000... Yes, it raised the issue of spending more time with the kids, internet security, and managing behaviour. Not good. But it happens.

attheendoftheendofmytether Tue 12-Nov-13 10:44:57

What I really don't understand is the Apple blaming. Surely parents are the ones who buy their children these devices, or permit them to borrow theirs are responsible.

In our case when I saw the bill, I blamed DH not Apple, he bought the bloody thing for a 7 year old so twas his fault entirely (and my fault for having children with a wannabe techie....always goes back to the parents!!)

Splodge, i started a thread on this a week ago, it was £652.

I was refunded within a week, both by Apple ( send a polite e-mail to them, google i tunes helpdesk, and tehy will reply. Or go inot i-tunes: my account: recently purchased: click on any of the purchases you want to contest. You only need to do this once, ten list all the purchase numbers in one big e-mail for them to look at.) and my bank ( love you barclays), I then had to refund the bank as I was quids in!

Big shock at the time.

Initially felt like blaming DS, who is 8. But upon further thought, it should NEVER be a child's fault if the parents are stupid enough ( this includes me! ) to link the kids' games to my own credit card. Not the kids
'S fault!!!!!!

Blame yourself, blame apple, but not the kid, IMO.

Anyway, you should get it all back!

Let us know!

Floggingmolly Tue 12-Nov-13 10:52:32

Surely if refunds are available on demand, everyone would invent an 8 year old who had an unfortunate unsupervised 6 months moment, and ran amok racking up charges? Why would anyone accept the charge at all?

IAlwaysThought Tue 12-Nov-13 10:53:24

I don't understand how anyone can download anything without an Apple ID password? You can opt to require a password for each and every download or opt to give a password every 15 minutes but I don't understand how you can completely avoid giving a password at all? confused I don't think its possible. Please enlighten me grin

Maybe it's possible with old ios's (but I still doubt it)

BitOutOfPractice sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. I misread your post.

Norudeshitrequired Tue 12-Nov-13 10:57:53

Fiscal - was your £652 run up in a short period of time? I think apple might be dubious about a 6 month period and query it more.

attheendoftheendofmytether Tue 12-Nov-13 10:58:10

Flogging, we asked the lovely guy at Apple that question and he said there is a distinct pattern to children's usage, the things they buy, the timing and its often fairly straightforward to differentiate between adult and child.

Flogging, I pointed out to Apple that the previous months had a very different spending pattern from the past 8 years, we spend maybe £5 a month on songs, and a couple of £0.79 apps. Then suddenly, there were 6 purchases of between 15 and 70 (!) pounds in the space of 10 minutes, right after i downloaded a free app. ( that infamous 15 minute window I did not know about).

I was very polite to apple, they were polite back, it was all quite a good learning experience.

It was spent over about 4 weeks.

I had not noticed as I never read my bank statements (ahem) but occasionally (once a month) check everything online.

I was at the garage picking up my car, had to pay. £700 bill....but not enough cash. Bit embarrassing. All my own fault really.

I have now disconected my credit Card from i-tunes, and use vouchers.

Also got a bit more seriously into parental controls, to then forget the password before i could write it down! so DH and I are now limited to watching age 12 and younger films!!!! I am so crap!!!!!

Floggingmolly Tue 12-Nov-13 11:19:47

Fair enough. That does sound vastly different to 6 months unnoticed usage, though. I still think op is on a hiding to nothing attempting to claim a refund.

Norudeshitrequired Tue 12-Nov-13 11:43:09

Fiscal - your situation is different as you noticed and raised a query within 4 weeks. I don't think apple will see a six month delay in quite the same light.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 12-Nov-13 12:00:48

I am so glad I have read this thread because there are several posts that make me feel I would be no better.
So glad there wasn't so much technology when our older dc were younger and dd is and will be told no from the off set.
Is it not cheaper to buy the cd, rather than giving such young irresponsible dc gadgets they really aren't old enough to manage?

BitOutOfPractice Tue 12-Nov-13 12:06:08

Fiscal I must admit to sniggering about your new puritanical viewing habits grin

IAlwaysThought no worries. Sorry I was snippy back. Had a crap morning <group hug>

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Nov-13 12:11:01

A couple of years ago my at the time boyfriend had helped himself to one of my iPods and I hadn't noticed one was moving around disappearing ect.

For about 6/7 months he was putting albums and other stuff on it I noticed because my dd asked my why on earth I had dub step and techno music on it ( I have no idea what dub step even is) this prompted me to look through it and I found out he had spent about £700.

Apple refunded is very quickly as he did not have consent to do so.and it was bloody obvious from the purchase history that it was a different person doing it.

I would certainly blame my 8 year old if he had spent my money without asking me. He knows even at that age that if he wants to download anything he needs my permission and all in app purchases are switched off so there is no chance of him spending money on such shite.

Parents are responsible for making sure that their children understand that they are spending real money, DS actually doesn't have the chance to spend anything as he has to give me the device to input the password and in app purchases are switched off. I know nothing about bloody techy stuff and I worked it out.

toffeesponge Tue 12-Nov-13 12:17:34

OP you need to take responsibility and stop over reacting and blaming your child.

It is your responsibility to make sure your chid can't spend your money, you should have told him he can't buy stuff. You need harder passwords, clearly. And you need to take a better look at your finances as you clearly don't understand them.

I hope you get some of the money back.

PatoBanton Tue 12-Nov-13 12:24:34

Have pM'd you OP x

everyone having a pop at her - just WAIT till it happens to you. You're not immune to this stuff. We all think we're careful enough.

Some stuff is just totally counterintuitive

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Tue 12-Nov-13 12:35:35

Thanks Pato but it really won't happen to me. You can't buy anything if there's no card attached.

curlew Tue 12-Nov-13 12:50:42

Why are people saying that an 11 year old doesn't know he shouldn't defraud his parents? Mine bloody did. And I would have considered that I had failed as a parent if they didn't.

Floggingmolly Tue 12-Nov-13 12:54:27

My suggestion that an 11 year old who didn't realise mightn't be where he should be, developmentally was deleted, curlew.
Maybe I phrased it wrong...

SilverApples Tue 12-Nov-13 12:59:47

Yes, you did phrase it differently in your deleted post Molly.
But I was surprised that so many felt that understanding money and being responsible for your actions in this situation was beyond an 11 year old.

PatoBanton Tue 12-Nov-13 13:07:06

BigOrange - no, of course not. However I did not attach my card. I had used my card ONCE in connection to my gmail address on the internet several months before even buying the tablet - and google took it upon themselves to take those details and use them on it, without my permission or consent, or knowledge.

My settings on th desktop still state that google wallet has not been activated on any device...needless to say I closed down google wallet, as I hadn't wanted it in the first place and only used it to enter my details for one random transaction when the website didn't take other forms of payment.

Go figure

NewBlueCoat Tue 12-Nov-13 13:08:57

Agree, SilverApples. I too find it extraordinary how posters have been quick to say 11 year olds don't understand such things.

I have a 9 year old who has severe ASD. She has her own iPad, and is able (as in, knows how to) download apps and music. She also knows she has to ask me to do it for her, as she need s a password to do it, and because it costs 'real money'. We are still working on the whole value of money thing, but then, she is, in academic terms, still working at pre-Reception levels. She does know the relativity of number size, and so understands if something is more money than she can afford, and can usually search for something within a set limit (she did really well with this on a recent holiday when spending her hard-saved pocket money).

my 6 year old (NT with quirks) also knows not to spend my money, and that there are some things she cannot do in apps because I won't spend money on it (and she doesn't want to spend her pocket money on it - which says it all, really!)

PatoBanton Tue 12-Nov-13 13:09:09

I thought I was safe with password protect, on all purchases, app or in-app, and with no card details entered into the device.

Luckily I have a child who is scared of me and was far more upset about mistakenly purchasing something than I was about him doing it

itwas under a tenner and we got it back

but still

MrsDavidBowie Tue 12-Nov-13 13:15:18

Well I think the lesson learned is...check your bank statements regularly.
I am amazed that people don't.

Oblomov Tue 12-Nov-13 13:25:43

I had a similar issue with ds1(9) who spent £305.thread

My boss, his son, spent a lesser amount, and boss's wife got it back quickly.

Ours took a lot of effort. We fought hard. But we got it. Google apologised to us, because they had stored dh's credit card details and there had been no pin number, no e-mails, just buy but buy by ds.

Be savvy OP. A lot of the people on this thread, who are giving you grief, are completely ignorant about how easy this is.

There are loads of ways this can happen. There are endless MN threads and endless posts/threads all over the internet. People seem to be implying that the parent is an idiot, for allowing this to happen.

It is so easy. There are so many ways this can happen.

To all those posters - Let's hope it doesn't happen to you, because then your comments really will come back to bite you on the bum.

SecretWitch Tue 12-Nov-13 13:29:21

Your son made a huge mistake. You made huge mistake. Take responsibility for your actions. Apple is not to blame. Why should they be made to eat the cost of your child's irresponsibility?

toffeesponge Tue 12-Nov-13 13:34:15

People need to take responsibility and if you don't know for sure that payments can't be taken then you need to check how it is set up. It is easy for kids to spend money, there has been enough publicity about it, that that should be a reminder for parents to check.

The OP has shown that she takes her financial situation less seriously than she should and that has meant her son has spent far more than she would have allowed.

If I was stupid enough to not protect my bank details then it would serve me right if my child spent all my money.

fuzzpig Tue 12-Nov-13 13:38:16

Even if you set up a 4-digit restrictions pin it doesn't automatically mean in-app purchases are blocked, you have to then go into the restrictions bit and turn that off too. The pin is purely to get into that part of the settings. Just wondering if that's where the confusion is coming from. (Apologies if I've understood it wrongly)

Hopefully loads of people read these threads and take the appropriate steps to prevent it happening to them.

IAlwaysThought Tue 12-Nov-13 13:38:37



1) keep your iTunes password private and not guess'able

2) Enable restrictions
SETTINGS >>>> GENERAL. >>> RESTRICTIONS >>> then enter and re-enter a non-guessable 4 digit PIN number.

3). Then turn off in-app purchases

4) Require a password every time you make an iTunes purchase. This is your Apple ID password.

5). Remove your credit card from your iTunes account and use itunes vouchers.


Even if you have decent controls on your home network and it's worth following the info in the following THIS LINK This feature is even more important if your child has a 3G device or accesses the internet via networks with no controls.


I recommend that anyone who is concerned about privacy and has Apple devices running iOS7 have a look at THIS LINK. It details how you can prevent pesky Apple and other apps accessing information about you.

*Disclaimer, I am happy to have the above info corrected. I think its right but I am not at all an expert*

This info is for iOS7 only.

splodge2001 Tue 12-Nov-13 14:16:20

We don't get paper statements from the credit card. I check the bank statements very often and saw the credit card amounts debited but they were mostly lower than usual as I'd stopped using my card (apart from 1 month the bill was higher, coz we'd borrowed money from the card).

curiousgeorgie Tue 12-Nov-13 14:22:45

This really annoys me.

Whenever I read something like this in the paper I think it serves them right.

Why should apple / google etc pay for your mistake?

You should have policed the situation better. If I didn't watch my DD with my iPad that's my too bad.

Ridiculous. They should make you pay it and I hope they do. Nothing personal but there's too much of this around at the moment.

PatoBanton Tue 12-Nov-13 14:24:25

Exactly Ob

SO much smugness and superiority from those it has never happened to (and clearly, could never happen to in a million years)

I had seen the threads
I set it up as well as I was able, password protected everything, blocked everything I was able to block.

I thought I was safe by only letting ds buy a voucher when he had saved enough, entering the voucher code and then allowing him to spend things only by asking me first so I agreed to each item and entered a 10 digit password he did not know.

Google was it seems desperate to get around my caution by grabbing details from a historic transaction involving my gmail address and letting him buy something using password required as I'd entered it 20 minutes prior to this.

I acknowledge I made an error, but it was the sort of error that you cannot foresee without experience.

Bit like someone sending you a court summons at the age of 18 for a pencil you nicked in school when you were 7.

CinnabarRed Tue 12-Nov-13 14:25:10

Oh, splodge - don't take it to heart.

I can completely see how it could happen the way you describe it, with lower rather than higher credit card bills. Lesson learnt, I'm sure.

If you can bear it, would you mind telling us a couple of things? Not to mud rake, but because I think it would be really helpful for people like me so we can understand how to protect ourselves better.

1. Have you checked which email address is linked to your iTunes account? In other words, has your DS changed it? Or is there some other explanation like the iTunes emails have been re-routed to spam? I'd like to know because if it's spam then I want to check my spam settings.

2. Do you know how your DS knew your password?

3. Do you know how your DS knew your PIN?

I really hope you get at least part of it refunded. I also hope your DH finds employment soon - it must be really hard being out of work for 2 years.

PatoBanton Tue 12-Nov-13 14:30:58

Curious, I am certain there are those who seek to take advantage of the refund policy in the light of this phenomenon

But look

Look at the sort of articulate, honest, genuine, educated parents (often very good parents no doubt) who are making these errors, and judge for yourself how likely it is that they are trying it on in a whiney sort of a way...'it's not fair ...'

It isn't like that. I'm the FIRST to hold my hands up and say, hang on, that was my stupidity, my error, I shouldn't have done that.

But when the thing is set up almost to trick people into doing stuff they had no intention of doing - like my son who came and told me immediately - then there is something at fault with the system imo.

IMO the nexus is an adult device. I regret buying the fucking thing. But there is huge peer pressure to have some kind of internet device and I think there is a real gap in the market for something that is pre-teen aimed, safe, user friendly, and not designed to make absurd amounts of money out of folk who are not especially clued up in technological terms.

It's immoral and wrong. People fall for it from a lack of knowledge in the same way that they find their FB profile is public when FB has once again changed the privacy settings in an underhand manner - but it's still a big ol' con.

Oblomov Tue 12-Nov-13 14:32:42

Curious George, have you not read what happened to Me and Pato?
Google apologised to me for illegally storing dh's credit card details, when the account was set up 6 months earlier. When ds bought he items, over 5 days, there was no pin request, and no e-mails were sent.
Google admitted this. And this was why they apologised and refunded.

"it serves them right. "
"Why should apple / google etc pay for your mistake?

You should have policed the situation better."

What should I have done, that I didn't do?

PatoBanton Tue 12-Nov-13 14:33:34

Disclaimer: I might be a thicko but have met Oblomov and she's fecking ace smile

She's not a whiner and I'll bet neither is the OP.

Also, I am not on FB. Because I don't trust it.

PatoBanton Tue 12-Nov-13 14:34:50

Ooh x posts!

Mummyoftheyear Tue 12-Nov-13 14:35:42

I hope that you got a refund. Did you ?

Oblomov Tue 12-Nov-13 14:36:20

"They should make you pay it and I hope they do."


Next time there is fraud. Or some one breaks into your house. Or money gets stolen from your bank account. Or there is a really clever fraud, that leaves you penniless, we will???????

Have a good laugh.
And say, serves you right.

Right hmm

Oblomov Tue 12-Nov-13 14:39:06

Google refunded the whole amount.
And a gift as an apology.
Bet that gets right up your nose CuriousGeorgie.

BlueSkySunnyDay Tue 12-Nov-13 14:39:59

My son spent more money than I would like on doughnuts on a Simpsons game. Unfortunately the password to authorise payments is no different to the one he needs for system updates, game downloads etc.

Luckily we realised pretty quickly and nipped it in the bud, he still has the password though as he would constantly be asking me to put in the password every time he downloaded a free game.

curiousgeorgie Tue 12-Nov-13 14:50:43

No, it doesn't 'get up my nose'... But I have my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

I think your situation sounds lightly different than the OP's however.

An 11 year old out in a pass code and knew what they were doing.

Take some responsibility for your child.

wannaBe Tue 12-Nov-13 14:52:08

since when has iTunes required you to have a credit card linked to an account? My ds has an iPod and his iTunes account doesn't have a credit card linked to it - if he wants to buy apps then we buy iTunes vouchers and he links those to his account, once the credit has gone then it's gone. But in-app purchases are disabled anyway.

But it's not apple's fault that children end up doing this - it's the fault, or naivety, or lack of tech savvy-ness of the parents for not putting in place the steps to ensure this doesn't happen. And there are steps that are easy to put in place. It's a bit like blaming the banks for the fact people get themselves into debt. yes banks make it easy to get into debt but ultimately the responsibility is that of the individual.

However, what's done is done and it's a valuable lesson to learn if apple won't refund the cost.

If your ds has changed the email address on the iTunes account then clearly he knew he was in the wrong. wouldn't just ban the game I would sell the iPod to make the point very clear. If a child that age doesn't know the value of money to that extent then it needs to be brought home to them very clearly IMO. I would sell his iPod and ban anything online related for a indetermined amount of time. and then make him do chores to earn back the money, and at 1700 quid he'll be doing chores for a bloody long time.

Strumpetron Tue 12-Nov-13 15:22:56

Wannabe they USED to make you supply a debit/credit card when you made an account. Then you could remove it afterwards. Don't think you have to now

Nerfmother Tue 12-Nov-13 15:29:52

So tell me how to stop in game purchases during Minecraft on the xbox? DS keeps spending 50p and I have no idea how to stop this; no 'help' button nothing. I have it set at teenage setting and linked to a card for the ongoing xbox live - when I tried to delete the card I couldn't as that would stop xbox live membership. I have been through every setting/account/privacy bit I can find (and in the process amended ratings/time on the xbox etc etc) but nothing at all to stop purchases. If I can't do that, what should I do?

Nerfmother Tue 12-Nov-13 15:30:41

going out now, will check back for tips later

curlew Tue 12-Nov-13 15:36:12

Tell him if he does it again you'll take the xbox away. Sorted.

Oblomov Tue 12-Nov-13 15:55:41

"it's the fault, or naivety, or lack of tech savvy-ness of the parents for not putting in place the steps to ensure this doesn't happen. And there are steps that are easy to put in place"

That is totally untrue WannaBe. Total nonsense.
It may be in some cases. but in others, there is minimal parental fault.

PatoBanton Tue 12-Nov-13 16:22:16

' It's a bit like blaming the banks for the fact people get themselves into debt.'

No, it's not at all. Bank accounts are not (as far as I know) set up in order to ENCOURAGE you to get into debt with the use of little counterintuitive security loopholes, knowing your child is likely to be using your account.

They want you to borrow but only if you know you're doing it. And banks are very hot on passwords in a way that Google is certainly not. When did you last notice your bank giving you a 30 minute pin waiver at a cashpoint?

IAlwaysThought Tue 12-Nov-13 16:28:00

Splodge. Did you speak to Apple ???????

Is there a reason that you don't want to tell us whether your son had your password or restrictions pin? Obviously, you don't have to tell us but it would be really interesting to know.

Norudeshitrequired Tue 12-Nov-13 16:50:06

So tell me how to stop in game purchases during Minecraft on the xbox? DS keeps spending 50p and I have no idea how to stop this; no 'help' button nothing. I have it set at teenage setting and linked to a card for the ongoing xbox live - when I tried to delete the card I couldn't as that would stop xbox live membership. I have been through every setting/account/privacy bit I can find (and in the process amended ratings/time on the xbox etc etc) but nothing at all to stop purchases. If I can't do that, what should I do?

You can easily stop in game purchases on minecraft by plugging out the xbox and confiscating it. If your DS has repeatedly been told to stop spending 50p's and hasn't stopped then he clearly doesn't deserve / isn't responsible enough to have the xbox.
The method is simple: go to the wall, remove the plug from the socket and hide the xbox / put it on ebay (ebay has the benefit of recouping some of your accumulated 50p's).

wannaBe Tue 12-Nov-13 16:54:42

in some cases perhaps but not in the case of apple. there are steps to disable in-app purchases and to confirm in-app purchases if they are enabled. And this is an eleven year old who can be told in no uncertain terms that in-app purchases are not allowed.

I can't speak for the play store or xbox live, but if a child makes £1700 worth of purchases on an iPod then the blame does not lie with apple. Even more so if the purchases were made over an almost six month period.

But as I said what's done is done and presumably the lesson has been learned. If I were apple though I wouldn't offer a refund given it happened over such a long period of time. it's less likely to look like an oversight than a child who buys £££ worth of coins for some game in quick succession iyswim, so although I can certainly see the frustration I don't necessarily think that there should be any burden on apple to give refunds in such instances.

But I would come down like a ton of bricks on the child regardless of whether I got the money from apple or not, because the devious way which he went about it shows a clear lack of respect and there would be hell to pay.

D0oinMeCleanin Tue 12-Nov-13 17:02:00

We have x-box live, play store, amazon app store, itunes etc. I have one debit card account separate from the family account, that I use for them, that I pay a nominal amount into as and when and can transfer money online between my current account and the 'app' account as and when needed.

That way no-one can run up any bills, once it's gone, it's gone until I decide to pay more into it.

Might be worth thinking about if you have children using these kinds of devices.

PatoBanton Tue 12-Nov-13 17:05:51

I didn't punish ds at all. I took the thing away for a few days while we all calmed down as he had a major panic attack the night he did it.

He didn't intend to lie to me, or to buy something - he knew he needed a password normally so it was a huge shock to him when it just said 'purchase successful' when he clicked on it to see how much it would be. (I think he must have clicked twice by accident, or something)

he came to me in floods of tears.

So no punishment necessary. We needed time to figure out some better rules to include the new information I gained after it happened. But I think it was not his fault as it was not intentional.

I cannot speak for the OP though.

lazydog Tue 12-Nov-13 17:11:34

wannabe - They certainly haven't required you to link a credit card to an iTunes account since my DSs got their iPod touches, so at least since Xmas 2010. I do recall that it wasn't obvious that it was an option, though, when I was initially setting up their accounts. I went through the sign up process and got to a point where it appeared to want credit card details, so that was when I Googled "itunes without credit card" and numerous search results gave clear instructions. It should have been made a more obvious option, definitely, as I know lots of people still don't realise this is possible...

Alibabaandthe40nappies Tue 12-Nov-13 17:14:21

Nerfmother you cancel the X-box live, confiscate the X-box until your son can prove that he will obey your rules. Surely?

OP so you didn't actually look at your CC bill online? Just looked at the amount being debited from your current account? I am a bit shock at that.

Have you phoned Apple yet, what did they say?

D0oinMeCleanin Tue 12-Nov-13 17:20:00

You can buy x-box live vouchers, for either 1 month, 3 months, 6 months or 12. That way you still get the benefits of having x-box live but without the potential for extra spending on in-game purchases via a credit or debit card.

curiousgeorgie Tue 12-Nov-13 17:20:37

I still don't get this. This child is 11. My 3 year old sticks to the rules more vigilantly.

... That is great Georgie, you and your child never make mistakes.

Lots of people do occasionally do make mistakes though.

Then they learn from them ( hopefully)

wannaBe Tue 12-Nov-13 17:34:55

ah no pato there is a vast difference though between a one-off purchase which your ds at the time didn't realise was going to happen and instantly told you about, (fearing the consequences) and a sustained series of purchases over a six month period amounting to thousands of £.

I suspect the reason the op is getting such a hard time isn't so much because her child made in-app purchases on an iPod, but because it happened over such a long period of time and for such a huge amount of money and she is seemingly so oblivious to the money being spent on her credit card that she failed to notice.

Had it been a small child making in-app purchases on a game over a day which amounted to that I imagine people would be a lot more sympathetic and saying that while she should have disabled in-app purchases, this was a hard lesson to learn and hopefully apple would be sympathetic. but I just can't see how you can be so blasé about money that you fail to notice an extra £300 plus going on a credit card every month and not noticing it. And really in those circumstances I don't see why Apple should even consider giving a refund.

AgentZigzag Tue 12-Nov-13 17:39:39

I can just smell the smugness wafting over from some of the posters.

It might not be this particular situation that stings you, but this is only one of hundreds, if not thousands, that parents/children face most days.

Ours was getting DD (12 at the time) a phone and finding she'd been talking to some internet random. I/we take responsibility for not being as tech savvy as we thought we were setting up the parental controls, but everyone knows how fast technology changes from one year to the next, just look at how many social networking websites there are that are in fashion one minute then another comes along.

I try my hardest to keep a track on what DD's up to online (especially in light of what happened (had a thread about it at the time which was invaluable and got CEOP involved, who were as brilliant as the posters on MN were) but I've said no to DD having accounts on twitter, keek, snapchat, instagram, skype, and youtube when she's asked. She's on facebook but all the emails go through one of my accounts and she knows I have access and will look at what she's up to.

It's endless, and she's only 13! What's it going to be like in another year or two?? shock

Saying no to the phone/internet/social sites isn't really an option, especially when teachers say they can mess about on their phones when they've finished their work in lessons! WTF? It's just a given that they're online.

I hope you do get the money back OP, and I'm glad there's more sympathy than condemnation on the thread, you definitely don't deserve any shit for what's happened.

curiousgeorgie Tue 12-Nov-13 17:42:35

Fiscal - it's not just the child that made the mistakes though. First theres being given access to the item (repeatedly) then there is a pass code to use the item, then there is downloading the game in the first place (at which time it should be as clear as day that there are in app purchases)... Then there is a password to access your bank account and make the payment. (I presume this child can read??)

Then there is the email that gets sent after every purchase confirming it. I know that they sometimes delay sending these and they send them in bulk, but this wasn't a day, this was SIX months. Then there is your bank account. There is of course, also the word No, in the first place.

Many, many ways to stop this from happening on the parents behalf and on the child's.

It is not even 1% apples fault. You shouldn't even be so bold as to ask for a refund. Six months... And 11 years old. Come on, don't be ridiculous.

Strumpetron Tue 12-Nov-13 17:43:08

I think most people were reasonable until she said she would slap someone hmm

I just hope that this thread will help someone to prevent it from happening to them. I mean in my mind it's been broadcast quite enough and people should be savvy by now, but hopefully this might help at least one person.

wannaBe Tue 12-Nov-13 17:44:25

fiscal spending £1700 on a credit card over six months, changing the email address that notifications go to etc isn't a mistake though is it? He is eleven not a baby. He didn't hit the purchase button as a one off, he continually purchased whatever it is you can spend £1700 on in this particular game, and went to the trouble of changing account details to cover his tracks, knowing he was in the wrong. My eleven year old plays on my iPad and knows my password. He knows though to ask before he wants to buy an app. If he bought something without my permission once he would be in trouble, if he ran up a £1700 debt over six months his feet wouldn't touch the ground. But I would also be asking myself how I could have been so unobservant as to not notice.

Strumpetron Tue 12-Nov-13 17:44:32

I'm still shocked how someone can miss aprox £283 a month coming out of their account.

splodge2001 Tue 12-Nov-13 18:04:05

As I've said the bills were actually mostly lower because I'd stopped using the card. I don't get paper statements and have very complicated accounts with 5 separate current accounts.

He only needed a pin for in-app purchases. Stupidly, I'd used my year of birth and he guessed it!

goodtimesinbontemps Tue 12-Nov-13 18:10:30

At 11 he knows well what is right and wrong, and must have known he would not be allowed. He is also old enough to understand the value of money, I have a boy of a similar age and I know he certainly would comprehend what he was doing under those circumstances. I do think its way too easy for anyone to buy in app stuff BUT its a parents responsibility to monitor that kind of thing and its not Apples fault you werent paying attention to your bills.

curiousgeorgie Tue 12-Nov-13 18:10:49

Well, the precedent seems to be that they don't refund that far back. You may get a month or two as a courtesy but probably not.

You clearly need to take better control of your finances though.

Strumpetron Tue 12-Nov-13 18:11:34

I thought inapp purchases were protected by a password not a pin? Never heard of having a pin on them. Learn something new..

curiousgeorgie Tue 12-Nov-13 18:12:45

They do have a password. Made up of case sensitive letters and numbers and over 6 characters or something like that... Pretty impossible to guess. Or he should work for NASA.

Crikeyblimey Tue 12-Nov-13 18:14:57

I know it is a massive lesson but hopefully this might highlight the need to get a better handle on your spending / money.

You've said you needed a loan (and a cc one was a drastic way to do it, so it must have been desperate). Hopefully, when the dust settles from this, you can take some positives from it and grasp the budgeting nettle.

Can I ask how you uncovered his spending?

Also - you know now and at least have stopped it getting any worse.

optimusic Tue 12-Nov-13 18:38:52

There are 3 passwords on apple devices.
The first is getting onto the home screen, simple 4 digit password.
The second is what you put when you want to restrict inapp purchases, net content and other things.
The third is the Store password. This one also requires the use of the email address and a password that consists of at least 8 characters, not contain any more than 3 consecutive identical characters, include at least one number, a least one upper and at least one lower case character.

Now, from what you are saying op, the lad used the dob password, which implies the second pin... This, until you clarify if the email has been changed on the device, implies that the device was never, ever logged out of the store.

Before you contact apple you need to be very clear because you are wanting a hell of a lot of money refunded. It's nice that others are giving you a bit of hope, but realistically theirs are cases of weeks, not months.

And those saying that ooh an 11 year old doesn't understand the value of money.... Don't you remember being 11? Where you really that clueless about money? No of course not. 11 year olds have pocket money, they know the basics about budgetting, they have to buy their own meals in school. They will have come across money at some point and realise that it doesn't go that far.

The blame isn't with whatever company. The blaim is with the parents. They hand children these devices (laptops, tablets, phones) without knowing a thing about them. They install no controls. They install no security. Nothing. They don't take the time to find out how to make these things safe. All the info is out there. They just need to take time and search.... Yes I have apple devices, that my children and their mates play with. Have done so for the last couple of years. But I took the time to ensure that my money is protected. If that makes me smug, then you know what I would rather be smug than a clueless mug. FFs, as others have pointed out, it's not even like this stuff has never been reported before, but still, the cycle continues.

IAlwaysThought Tue 12-Nov-13 18:39:30

Splodge. I just don't understand! Surely he must have also know your Apple ID password?? Have you tried to replicate the purchase process on your sons IPod.

He DEFINITELY would have needed your Apple ID password if it was running a recent iOS and I am absolutely nearly positive he would have needed it regardless of how old it was? shock shock but I could be wrong
The only way around this would be for him to come to you and get you to input the password and for him to use the 15 minute password window.

splodge2001 Tue 12-Nov-13 19:04:24

It was his apple id. and the in app thing only needed a pin.

FYI Opti, I set the pin up precisely to prevent this from happening. He guessed it and now we're screwed.

He wasn't adding up the spending and I think it didn't seem very real. He was addicted to the popularity he got for being good at the game. It's all rather sad really.

curiousgeorgie Tue 12-Nov-13 19:06:39

The app thing only needed a pin??

An app on the iPad?

Not possible.

IAlwaysThought Tue 12-Nov-13 19:15:42

Well that explains why you were not getting email notifications confused
Have you checked his email account? They will have been sent there. shock

You are not allowed to set up an Apple ID for an 11 year old. Either you or he would have had to submit a fake birthdate. Once entered you cannot change it - so it's not possible that your son could have gone back and altered it at a later date.

OP Did you contact Apple today??

ToomuchIsBackOnBootcamp Tue 12-Nov-13 19:20:54

It was an iPOD not ipad curiousgeorgie

Thanks to this thread, I've just changed my settings from 15 mins to immediately. So thanks for the info.

optimusic Tue 12-Nov-13 19:42:08

He is pulling a fast one.

I have the game. I have just tried purchasing on various devices. I made sure that I was logged out of the store... Guess what?? Each time, on each device I had to log into store which required email and password. If I had purchased gems, just would have made the youngest a happy little chap lol.

He has not used the pin number. He has logged in using the email.

Oddly, all my devices "remember" my log in by themselves, they only require password.

So I guess it can vary depending on set up

NewBlueCoat Tue 12-Nov-13 20:04:35

Mine all remember the id email, but on its own that is no use. The password needs to be put in each time.

NewBlueCoat Tue 12-Nov-13 20:06:02

Sorry, that was just a repeat of what you said Fiscal. I meant to add, it's the password not the PIN (either of the PINs I have set) which is asked for.

Could he have used the PIN to go in to restrictions and change it to allow in app purchases?
Although that means he knows what he's doing. And even then you have to enter the apple id password

LittleBearPad Tue 12-Nov-13 20:25:59

But regardless of whether you get paper statements you would have online statements...

tharsheblows Tue 12-Nov-13 20:42:45

I have sympathy for this happening to people. It hasn't happened to us, but I think that's more dumb luck than tech savvy good parenting. Part of my job is to know about these things, but it's hard to keep up with the constant changes - Facebook privacy settings, anyone? It's extremely difficult to know that you've missed vital steps when they keep changing, are not listed in setup procedures, are non-obvious and everything still works perfectly without having done them (until it all goes wrong, of course).

I don't have sympathy for blithely denying any responsibility for checking your bank and credit card accounts. You are not only denying responsibility but not assuming responsibility for this in the future and don't seem to understand that the reason things have gone as massively wrong as they did is the fact that you did not check these statements on a regular basis. "It's too complicated" is not an excuse for not looking them over. It's basic stuff, if not the most basic thing you need to do when you have a debit or credit account.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Nov-13 21:40:18

Bloody hell how exactly is badgering the op about historically checking her statements helping in any way other than to help those banging on about it to feel all warm fuzzy and superior?

Yes she didn't check as well as she should have,yes that was daft but give the poor woman a break pointing that out now is going to change what about her current crisis?

Bugger all.

Anyone whose taken out a cc loan probably has no other option ( apart from PDL) that also means that chances are they are financially in a hole,its really not unusual for people in that situation to not check stuff like that often your lucky if they even open the letters. So why put the boot in to a person who is acting in a normal way to an abnormal situation

MillyONaire Tue 12-Nov-13 21:44:27

I buy itunes gift cards - that way they don't have my cc details to hand. (too late now but maybe helpful for future purchases)

tharsheblows Tue 12-Nov-13 22:30:38

Sockreturningpixie - because she seems to have no intention of looking at them in the future and doesn't even acknowledge it as a factor in causing the situation.

This big bad thing happened and a necessary part of making sure it or things like it don't happen again is checking the statements regularly. I think people are trying to make her see that it's important - for more reasons than just this one incident, actually.

Strumpetron Tue 12-Nov-13 22:44:03

I still can't get used to 'returning' pixie. What happened to nicking??!!

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Nov-13 22:54:13

Well people got all a bit concerned about their feet when I was nicking them grin

I must have missed her post when she sad she wouldn't look in future.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Nov-13 22:54:54

Sad!!!! No no no I meant said,I'm not sad at all,I'm really rather cheery

Pennythedog Wed 13-Nov-13 03:16:45

Ok, so when your son got his iPod, you or your husband set up an iTunes account for him using your husband's credit card? Your son knows the password for this account.

The emails either go to your son's email address or he logged on to the account and changed the settings so you wouldn't get them.

You did set up his iPod so that he couldn't make in-app purchases and set up a pin. However your son guessed the pin and was able to turn in-app purchases back on. As he knew the password for the iTunes account he could purchase whatever he wanted.

Every month, you check the balance on your credit cards but not the actual statement? So you didn't notice all the purchases.

Is that correct?

I hope Apple refund you the money. It must have been an awful shock for you. I think you obviously have learnt a lot from this,

1) If your kids have their own iTunes account do not link it to a credit card. They can buy and use vouchers instead or keep the password a secret from them, switch the settings to 'immediately' and monitor their usage.

2) Set a pin that cannot be easily guessed

3) Check your bank statements every month. There is a lot of fraud about at the moment so it is good practice.

MiniMonty Wed 13-Nov-13 03:26:37

There was a pin number - he guessed it.

Really ?

A four digit pin code is a ten to the power of four random number - and he GUESSED it?

I won't say "impossible" out loud but I will say EXTREMELY unlikely.

Does he do the lottery?

Pennythedog Wed 13-Nov-13 04:22:23

The OP already said that the PIN was her birthday year.

Tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 13-Nov-13 04:25:08

Did you read the bit where the OP said she used her birthday, or are you just looking for a reason to call troll, Monty?

MiniMonty Wed 13-Nov-13 04:37:20

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Pennythedog Wed 13-Nov-13 05:00:53

But the OP did know enough that she had to switch off in-app purchases. She just naively used a PIN that was easy for him to guess. Isn't the most common PIN something like 1234?

Kids are so smart. My 2 year old can enter the PIN I have set to switch on the phone. The one they need to change the settings is different and impossible to guess and I always make sure to hide the phone from view when I input it or my Apple password. My older son is only 5 but I know his little brain is switched on and he doesn't miss a thing!

I don't agree that this could happen to anyone. If you have your security set tight then it can't happen but if you don't have your security set tight then it absolutely could happen to you.

BitOutOfPractice Wed 13-Nov-13 07:02:44

Well good for you penny but I think if you read the thread then you'll see people here who had their security set as tight as a gnat's arse who still got caught out. Not to mention the changes that the new iOS update has made to settings.

curlew Wed 13-Nov-13 07:26:36

It absolutely could happen to anyone-if they have an 11 year old who is prepared to steal from them.........

I can't see why people don't think this is the crucial point here.

youarewinning Wed 13-Nov-13 07:27:36

I suspect your DS watched you key in the pin and learnt it. My DS' Ipad has the restrictions on - pin protected - then app downloading, in app purchases and app deletion are all switched off, then it asks for password everytime. He picked up very quickly what the password was and announced he knew it - I changed it and told him simply if he accessed the apps restrictions or downloaded anything he would no longer have an Ipad.

I agree with other posters who say your son knew what he was doing. He may not have realised how much he'd spent, or understand the true value of money but he actively set out to find out your password to access restricted stuff. The onus is on you as the bill payer to have noticed these amounts going out. If you noticed straightaway I can see why apple would refund.

It's been 5 months!

Pennythedog Wed 13-Nov-13 07:42:33

The Google thing is different as that is Android not Apple.

If your security is tight then it cannot happen. It just can't. It is scare-mongering to say it can. If you update your IOS then double check your settings afterwards. Do it every time.

Everyone knows about In-app purchases so keep your devices safe. It only takes a few minutes to set up.

I'm not being smug or blaming anyone but it's not that complicated to protect yourself and it will save you a lot of tears and stress.

5madthings Wed 13-Nov-13 07:42:49

yes anyone with a child that would steal, which is something lots of kids do at this age...normally the odd bit of change lying round the house tho not £1700 on apps!

but the other crucial bit is that the op did not check her cc statement for 5/6mths. had she been looking at her statement she would have seen the itemised payments to apple.

checking statements is crucial for financial security. what if someone had cloaned the ops card etc?

BitOutOfPractice Wed 13-Nov-13 07:53:54

I agree 5mad that that was a mistake. I was merely pointing out to someone saying "oh it could never happen to me. My security is so tight." Might have to eat their words one day.

splodge2001 Wed 13-Nov-13 08:00:06

pennythedog is right.

DS is saw that the pin was four digits and decided to go through our birth years and guess what, mine worked!

He may be a thief but he's not stupid! Currently working on a home spun community service order and some kind of games addict programme. He actually feels relieved but admits to being addicted. Does anyone know of anything? I don't want the school or GP to know.

EBearhug Wed 13-Nov-13 08:09:55

DS is saw that the pin was four digits and decided to go through our birth years and guess what, mine worked!

There's a reason why you're advised not to use dates like this as a PIN.

Strumpetron Wed 13-Nov-13 08:12:41

Oh for the love of god I don't know about games addiction but he really knows how to play you OP.

Games addiction? Going to the GP? Good grief. I think all children are 'addicted' to games at some point. It doesn't make it the illness that true addiction really is.

5madthings Wed 13-Nov-13 08:14:31

why dont you want school or gp to know they may be able to hrlp.
tbh i would just make him go cold turkey, no ipod etc. no interney access apart from homework.

look i can be lax at checking statements in detail, but always skim read and check for anything i dont recognise etc, its shit this has happened and disappointing from your sons pov, but i dont tjink he is devil incarnate and he probably didnt think how much it was all adding up.. but now is the time to start checking accounts properly.

SilverApples Wed 13-Nov-13 08:29:52

My Aspie would spend his time online or gaming 24/7 given the choice, but he hasn't been allowed to. He got an allocation of time online, a warning 15 minutes before the deadline and if he overran, he lost the next day's time. All of it.
So why not try a few boundaries with your DS first, instead of looking for gamer addiction programmes as a first step?
You also need to work on his understanding of trust abuse issues, and why he shouldn't help himself to things without checking if it's OK. Which will involve discussions, you doing a lot of calm listening and evaluating and being clear about what the problem is and why it is a problem.

Preciousbane Wed 13-Nov-13 08:31:30

My friends DS was truly addicted to gaming, he actually dropped out of school for a year and was seen by CAHMS. He was actually diagnosed with anxiety and became a total recluse who would not leave his room. The gaming was a symptom of his illness as he could shut himself away. He is back at school but is two years behind and is attending a small independent school that her Mum has stumped up the cash for.

Due to my friends experience no electronic devices are allowed in bedrooms.

curiousgeorgie Wed 13-Nov-13 09:16:18

Okay, this was playing on my mind so I downloaded the game onto my old iPhone, no current phone service, so essentially just an iPod on wifi.

You need your apple ID to get the game in the first place, then an apple ID when you want to purchase something, not a pin.

So, did you give it to him or did he guess that as well?

IAlwaysThought Wed 13-Nov-13 09:47:26

OP. Did you contact APPLE yesterday? hmm

If not, are you going to contact them?

Jins Wed 13-Nov-13 09:57:04

This isn't new. I'm not sure how helpful people think they are being by having a go at the OP. Nobody thinks that their young child will steal off them so a situation like this comes like a bolt from the blue.

All those with perfectly behaved 3 year olds really have little idea of how 11 year olds behave at times so let's hope karma doesn't come into play.

For what its worth I doubt that Apple will refund in this instance due to the timescales. They may offer a goodwill amount but they may not. There is an option to reclaim the money through the cc provider but OP needs to report her DS for fraud. I seem to remember someone doing that recently but it was a huge amount. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable putting fraud on my child's record but I don't know how long it stays with them.

It's a lesson learned and hopefully others will learn from it.

Jins Wed 13-Nov-13 09:59:04

I found the story but can't link as I'm on my phone

IAlwaysThought Wed 13-Nov-13 10:07:44


Lots of kids, boys especially, would play computer games all day long if their parents let them. This is a parenting issue not an addiction issue.
I would be much more concerned about the 'stealing' side of things and not the 'addiction' side.

There is plenty you can do to ensure this doesn't happen again.

IAlwaysThought Wed 13-Nov-13 10:10:26
Prawntoast Wed 13-Nov-13 10:12:21

It's a huge pain but the best thing thing to do is not leave card details on the account, of course it means that you have to enter your payment method every time you purchase but at least this sort of situation wouldn't occur. I cannot see Apple refunded after this length of time, at some point it's your responsibility to check these payments otherwise everyone could claim their child was spending on an unauthorised basis.

Norudeshitrequired Wed 13-Nov-13 10:30:05

The OP has just lost whatever credibility she had left by excusing her sons theft and labelling it as a gaming addiction which needs treatment.

OP - based on that excuse I am now very informed as to how this situation has arose. Your son clearly knows that he can hoodwink you because you are gullible and therefore he can do whatever he wants.
The best thing to do is to remove the ipod and any other tablet or gaming devices so that you son cannot access them. This is not to treat his 'addiction', it is to punish him for his deceit and theft and manipulative behaviour.

wannaBe Wed 13-Nov-13 11:36:19

"All those with perfectly behaved 3 year olds really have little idea of how 11 year olds behave at times so let's hope karma doesn't come into play." I have an eleven year old and there is no way he would do this. And there is no way I would fail to notice him spending £1700 over a period of six months.

But, you do not need a pin to do in-app purchases on an iPod you need the apple ID password. so the inaccurate info coupled with the whole notion of it being a gaming addiction/the op's inability to notice etc leaves me wondering if this is actually even real.


SilverApples Wed 13-Nov-13 11:39:52

He's going to be an interesting teenager, that's for sure.
Neither of mine were perfectly behaved, or even close to perfection at 3. They were pretty good teenagers, and as adults they are lovely.

Jins Wed 13-Nov-13 11:40:07

All you can guarantee wannaBe is that you would notice the spend. Everything else is out of your control. There are no guarantees

SilverApples Wed 13-Nov-13 11:41:25

Well, out of your control unless you are monitoring your child, pick up the problem at an early stage and remove the technology altogether.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 13-Nov-13 11:44:52

There is no PIN on an iPod, unless you talking about the PIN to simply open the device?

This is looking more and more like a thinly veiled attack on apple/technology/gaming.

Why haven't you rung Apple OP? What are you waiting for?

IndiansOnTheRailroad Wed 13-Nov-13 11:45:58

Apart from not checking the statements, you must also have ignored the automatic email you get from the iTunes store for every purchase....

IndiansOnTheRailroad Wed 13-Nov-13 11:47:38

Alibabaa - there can be a PIN on an iPod touch - to access restriction controls (such as disabling downloads, requiring a password every time not once every hour or whatever).

But I agree with you it looks a bit dodgy.

BitOutOfPractice Wed 13-Nov-13 11:48:30

wannabe before you make claims about inccurate info, perhaps get your facts right. It's a PIN on my ipod, ipad and iphone for in-app purchases, not the password. And before I changed my restriction settings yesterday it was open - no PIN or passowrd required at all. Perhaps you are using an old iOs version

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 13-Nov-13 11:49:39

Indians thank you, I stand corrected smile

The appleID request still pops up though? Or not?

Jins Wed 13-Nov-13 12:02:05

Monitoring would only minimise the spend. You can't ever be certain what anyone would do because you aren't them

nipersvest Wed 13-Nov-13 12:02:26

bitoutofpractice - have just checked on my ipad and to make an in-app purchase on mine, (ios7), it's asking for my apple id password, not my pin. as alibabaa has just posted, my pin is for opening up the home page and for getting into the restrictions bit within setting.

wannaBe Wed 13-Nov-13 12:02:49

nope, up to date iOS here. You can have a pin to enable restrictions but that requires you to actually go into the settings/general/restrictions menu in order to re-enable them, not to make purchases from within the game. in-app purchases require the apple ID password.

Anyway I've reported this thread to mn hq as I suspect that it's all bullshit.

wannaBe Wed 13-Nov-13 12:03:35

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

IAlwaysThought Wed 13-Nov-13 13:12:46

I find this thread a bit strange too but it could just be that the OP really really doesn't have a clue about technology and is a embarrassed about her sons behaviour.
She is a long term poster so I don't think troll hunting is appropriate confused. (Apart from the fact it's not allowed).

The OP has stated she came on here for advice but has then repeatedly ignored requests for information on various things. Obviously there is no law saying she has to answer but it's taken two days to get to the actual facts of what happened. We have only just 'discovered' that her son has his own itunes account with his Dads credit card details on it. If we had known this earlier it would have saved loads and loads and loads and loads of speculation.

I find it REALLY frustrating that the OP is not saying whether she has contacted Apple. We get a lot of threads like this and it is interesting and useful to know how people get on.

I think these threads are useful to other people even if the OP doesn't seem to be listening. I suppose its understandable that she is still feeling very shocked.

BitOutOfPractice Wed 13-Nov-13 13:29:38

I can absolutely say I'm not wannabe I've posted on this thread throughout including telling the OP she's been totally daft. I also post regularly on a lot of other threads. Not that you'll believe me of course. But if you'd like to report me for sock puppetry / trolling give it a go eh and let's see how far you get. Then I'll await your apology.

BitOutOfPractice Wed 13-Nov-13 13:31:58

IAlwaysThought I have found this thread pretty illuminating too. I have a number of Apple devices and I thought I was pretty secure but I was amazed how many loopholes there are for security lapses. From my point of view I'm more interested in security in case phone / iPod / iPad are ever lost or stolen but it's certainly been an interesting read

splodge2001 Wed 13-Nov-13 20:57:55

The OP has answered everything and agrees that there is lots of info on here. What's amazing is that everyone's contradicting each other which just goes to show how confusing it all is. The answers to all your questions are in my various posts.

I called Apple today, I got a partial refund but nowhere near the £1700. American Express doesn't want to know but I am keen to know why all these purchases didn't trigger an inquiry. My belief is that they have a very poor alert system.

Ipads are dangerous. I am tech savvy, build my own websites, run an online business etc but what happened here was caused by a series of human errors, some poor behaviour mixed up with a device that makes it very easy to spend. Death by a thousand cuts...

ProphetOfDoom Wed 13-Nov-13 21:02:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

curiousgeorgie Wed 13-Nov-13 21:05:44

You build your own websites, run an online business and yet, don't bother to check your bank statements for six months?

None of this rings true.

splodge2001 Wed 13-Nov-13 21:15:18

curiousgeorge - ok you think none of this rings true - I'm not sure why. It's prob because I'm managing so much, that it didn't check the statements. We have 6 current accounts between us and I deal with all the tax returns, vat, corporation tax, inventory etc. We been through the process of remortgaging recently too.

He' working off the debt with chores. Each well performed chore knocks £10 off. He also had to write a 500 word statement explaining why his conscience didn't kick in every time he spent £6.99 or £69.99!!!

IAlwaysThought Wed 13-Nov-13 21:33:58

I am glad to hear you will get back at least some of the money. It may be worth pursuing it further and seeing if you can get them to increase the level of refund.

OP. I agree that there is a lot of confusion on this thread but some of it was because we didn't know the facts until very late in the thread, for example it still isn't clear what iOS version or even which device was involved confused

Ipads and iPods are not in the least bit dangerous. There is lots of readily available information on the Internet detailing how to make them kid safe. You do not have to be tech savvy, you just have to recognise the potential problems and be prepared to take the time to do a bit of research.

There are idiots guides (with pictures!) to everything that has been discussed on this thread. I am not saying its impossible to get caught out though and I would never be foolish enough to say it couldn't happen to me. I work on the basis that everyone is out to get me grin

NewBlueCoat Wed 13-Nov-13 21:35:39

oh please, tone the drama down.

iPads aren't dangerous. handing one over to a child with inadequate protection or restrictions set up is dangerous.

mind you, I'm just as staggered that an 11 year old is allowed totally unrestricted internet access, for prolonged periods of time.

I would imagine that the reason it didn't trigger any alerts is that your 11yo has his own Apple ID and therefore the pattern of spending wasn't abnormal on that account. But who the hell lets an 11yo have their own ID?? Just when I think it can't get any sillier...

daytoday Wed 13-Nov-13 22:28:09

you can set up an apple account with a gift card/voucher and not link it to an account. I googled how to do it and followed instructions.

optimusic Wed 13-Nov-13 22:39:54

Wow, you are wondering why the cc company didnt trigger anything, when they have billions of customers, yet you couldnt be arsed to bother checking. If thir system is poor, where does that leave your system? not exactly what you would call a decent one.

Ipads are not dangerous. the people who use poor controls on them are. Ffs you used your dob. You. set up an account in your sons name using your/your dh credit card details.

For someone who claims to be tech savvy, you have failed big time, and still are blaiming everything else for your cock up... You are still not accepting that this is your household fault, because all errors came entirely from your childs parents... Stop blaiming others, start taking responsiblity and realise any 'addiction' has come from lack of parental input, just like the whopping cc bill.

Pennythedog Thu 14-Nov-13 03:22:16

I'm glad you got some money back splodge.

I don't think it is wrong for kids to have their own Apple account but obviously it's not a good idea to let them have their own account linked to your credit card.

Anyway, lesson learnt and all that. Hopefully this thread will encourage others to tighten up their restrictions too.

Btw, I checked my old iPhone which is connected to wifi in the house and it said there had been three failed password attempts on the restrictions page. Definitely wasn't me! Glad to see they couldn't get in though. I actually suspect my husband. He'll never guess my password though! It is completely random.

BadgerBumBag Thu 14-Nov-13 04:10:17

Glad you got some money back and are finding ways to teach your son the scale of what he's done.

I am confused however why you are so offended that people have expressed an opinion on what happened. You started a thread hoping for support which you got, mixed in with other reactions. This is conversation, debate, and essentially what happens when you make something public and open to debate.

You cannot filter people and I have always loved that about mn - the perspective other people's (sometimes quite extreme and unexpected) opinions give me.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 14-Nov-13 08:14:07

OP I'm not sure what you think the credit card company should have done? hmm

The onus is on you as a consumer and a parent to have your own checks in place, and to be responsible for what you and spending, and what your child is doing when you give them access to your credit card via a piece of technology.

If your finances are too complicated to manage, then simplify them. If you can't handle dealing with your company accounts then get an accountant. My accountant costs me less per annum than your DS spent on this game.

The only people responsible here are you and your DH, and all this casting around for people and organisations to blame is just making you look daft.

Hopasholic Thu 14-Nov-13 08:14:39

Of course the alarm bells should have been ringing at Amex for all those £.69p transactions. confused

It never occurred to me to blame anyone apart from ourselves and my son as I said up thread. Hopefully once you've had a bit of time you'll realise that sometimes you have to hold your hands up and admit you've cocked up big time. Blaming everyone and wanting to slap other posters ain't gonna help.

The Apple ID is the key to the phone/iPad. If a child has their own then they can basically do whatever they like on that phone including overriding the PIN. That's if they don't just guess it. Then they can download what they like, google what they like and watch what they like. I'm astounded that anyone would let their child have total control over their device. And to tie that up with a credit card beggars belief.

Prawntoast Thu 14-Nov-13 08:32:23

If the child had their own apple account and the parent tied it to their credit card it can't possibly be fraud can it? You've effectively given the child the credit card to do with what they will. I surprised Apple refunded anything to be honest. The only way that could be fraud would be if the child stole the credit card and entered the details themselves.

Glad you got some of it back!

As to banks, I have always found Barclays to be quite good about being proactive if they spot a change in your spending pattern ( they call you) and in our case, with DS spending 650 in a month, they put the money in my account within a few days. Then I had to give it back as Apple refunded me. Nice to know they would have paid if Apple would not have.

IneedAsockamnesty Thu 14-Nov-13 16:10:31

The only way that could be fraud would be if the child stole the credit card and entered the details themselves

Not true, if you do not have actual consent to use someone else's card its still a crime to do so even if they make it really really easy for you.

splodge2001 Thu 14-Nov-13 17:42:15

weird - I actually haven't blamed anyone else but I guess things do get misinterpreted on mumsnet.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 14-Nov-13 18:59:06

Er, yes you have!

If you think you haven't then maybe you should re-read your posts.

You have blamed Apple and American Express and you have obviously hoped and expected that they would bear the financial loss rather than you and your husband.

Floggingmolly Thu 14-Nov-13 19:16:15

On what grounds did Apple refund "some" of the charge, op? What proportion did they decide wasn't your responsibility, and why?

Stropzilla Thu 14-Nov-13 19:36:43

OP to answer your question about why the purchases didn't trigger at Amex. Amex have an alert for out of pattern spend. If you go from spending £300 to 3ķ for example that's massively out of pattern. A couple of hundred a month extra is nothing. Repeat spend at a restaurant the card holder owns could flag up for money laundering. ITunes is very common on repeat spend so it wouldn't be flagged.

Not interested in placing blame here. I do think Apple were good to refund any at all given it was over a period of time and usually these things are mentioned straight away. Hope your son is learning to respect other people's money now.

Flitwickmummy Thu 14-Nov-13 23:39:08

Oh jeez!

That is awful, I hope you are able to get the money refunded.

IroningBored Tue 19-Nov-13 00:28:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

It’s Apples responsibility to not let this happen on their OS. Kids don’t understand the value of money and not every adult is tech savvy. Most people probably have never heard of micro transactions or even know you could spend inside an app.

No it isn't Apple's responsibility. Here's a thought. Be tech savvy, take responsibility and if you're not sure about this stuff, don't hand it over to your kids. and hey, teach your kids the value of money. It's not hard. Stop hiding behind other people.

SirChenjin Tue 19-Nov-13 12:49:29

So glad you got some of your money back OP smile

nipersvest Tue 19-Nov-13 12:51:54

chrisbenedict - what a daft thing to post

IAlwaysThought Tue 19-Nov-13 13:03:17

You DONT have to be tech savvy, there are loads of step by step 'how to' guides for people to follow. You just have to put a bit of effort into it.

For example, if you don't know how to set up an iPod so that it is safe for a child to use then just type how do I set up an iPod for a child. into google... It's not rocket science smile

wannaBe Tue 19-Nov-13 13:37:27

it's apple's responsibility to ensure that there are tools in place to prevent excessive spending, such as parental controls, passwords and such. It is not their responsibility if clueless idiots let their children loose with their credit cards on iDevices which they know the passwords for.

Would you give your child a credit card and give them unlimited access to a toy shop? no? well this is no different.

And I wouldn't consider spending on apple as being a strange spending patern - lots of people own apple devices and buy games, apps, songs, albums, songs, plus it didn't happen in quick succession - yes if no activity suddenly sparked into £1700 overnight this would trigger an alert, but this was a sustained patern of spending and no reason why it would or should be seen as suspicious.

The only person responsible for the fact the op is £1700 out of pocket is the op for A, not supervising her ds more closely, and B, being so blasé with her finance that it's seemingly easy to spend that much of her money without her noticing.

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