Questions about SIDS & putting baby in own room, sorry if thi isn't the right place.

(50 Posts)
shouldIbecrossaboutthis Sat 29-Dec-12 00:01:35

My Ds is 12 weeks today and has slept from 10/11pm-9/10am since about 6 weeks old. I'd like to move him out of the bedside cot and into his own room in the next few weeks because the bedside cot is getting too small. We've started doing day time naps in his room and everything is going ok.

I know the guildlines for SIDS are not to put them in their own rooms before 6 months, but does anyone know why? If there is a reason then I'll keep him in with us, I'm not one to take chances. But if it's just a worldwide rule based on various factors then I might make more of a personal decision.

Anyone know? Thanks!

sedgieloo Sat 29-Dec-12 01:41:46

This is from memory having read something some while back. I think when a closer look was taken at instances of SIDS, many of the deaths the infant was not in the same room as parents. Additionally for this reason the advice applies to all sleeps. Naps and nights.

This particular article considered other specifics surrounding the deaths such as time chd had last been checked and time of day etc. sorry I can't reference or just now. It was these details which formed the basis for the conclusions and so the advice to patents.

littletingoddess Sat 29-Dec-12 01:48:09

I was told by a health visitor that the parents' breathing helps to regulate the baby's breathing, which reduces the risk of SIDS. I suppose the logic is that this helps the baby's body to 'remember' to breathe. It may or may not be true but we ended up keeping our DD in our room until she was seven months old.

cheesebaby Sat 29-Dec-12 02:07:54

It's because babies sleeping alone are at greater risk of SIDS than babies sharing a room with a caregiver; see here for the details of relevant studies.

DD has slept in her own room since 4 weeks. No regrets here - she slept through and kept us awake in our room.

CoolaYuleA Sat 29-Dec-12 02:12:43

The incidence of SIDS is higher in babies who sleep in a different room to their parents. Therefore putting a child into it's own room before six months places them at higher risk of SIDS than keeping them in with you.

As sedgie says - the guidelines apply to ALL periods of sleep, both naps and nights. My family takes part in the studies that inform the guidelines due to a family history of SIDS. DD is the latest family member and she was monitored from birth to 10 months. She slept (still does) in our room at night and always naps downstairs.

As littletin says the research indicates that hearing the parents breath helps to regulate the baby's breathing. Breathing is a reflex, and for small babies it is very new. It is thought that the body may simply 'forget' to breathe, either because it's such a new thing, or because the baby may be in a very deep sleep. Being in the same room as the parents means that the noises made by the parents whilst asleep will prevent the baby sleeping too deeply, but there is some evidence that that hearing breathing triggers the reflex.

By the age of six months the reflex and the nerves that stimulate the breathing are believed to be sufficiently developed that it is considered far less likely that a baby's body will 'forget' to breathe - and at that point it is safe for a child to go into it's own room. (Unless there is a reason not to, such as in our case).

It is really believed to be massively important that a baby sleeps in the same room as the parents. One of the FSID taglines is "Sleep safe, sleep sound, share a room with me."

shouldIbecrossaboutthis Sat 29-Dec-12 12:28:11

Thanks everyone for the advice, I didn't realise about parents breathing acting as a guide for the baby.

I thought it might have been risk of suffocation (but we use a gro bag), over heating (we use a thermometer), lack of supervision (we have a monitor with sensor mat), sleeping in tummy (he goes on his back in a sleep positioner) etc. I thought we had countered all the risks if that makes sense?

But I suppose there is nothing that you can use to trigger a breathing reflex! I'd like to read more about this, does anyone know where to look?

Skiffen Sat 29-Dec-12 12:36:28

If you go via the fsid website, i think it's in a bit for professionals, there's a lot of statistical info from large meta-analyses. Iirc, and i may not & i can't check as on phone, its a x9 risk for sleeping in a separate room.
I have linked to it before on a similarly titled thread. Will check when i can get online.

dishwashervodkaanddietirnbru Sat 29-Dec-12 12:41:25

I dont think sleep positioners are recommended as there have been babies that have suffocated after moving into dangerous positions while using them

FestiveFiggy Sat 29-Dec-12 12:48:34

In terms of breathing regulators I've heard that people use a ticking clock in the babies room not sure if it actually reduces risk though

Skiffen Sat 29-Dec-12 12:55:20

No one knows the mechanism by which parents' breathing regulates the infant's. It may not be sound but chemoreceptors responding to increased co2 that the adults have expired. We are all stimulated to breathe by rising co2 levels, so that makes sense too.

dishwashervodkaanddietirnbru Sat 29-Dec-12 12:55:53

p.s. there is also no evidence that the monitors help prevent SIDs. From sids website:

There is no evidence that movement monitors (also known as apnoea or breathing monitors) prevent cot death. Babies can and do die whilst on a monitor. They are designed to sound an alarm after 20 seconds if they can’t detect a baby’s breathing movement. They cannot detect a blocked airway until breathing movements stop.

Ameybee Sat 29-Dec-12 17:32:03

I work in a children's hospital & have always been told it is because the noise you make in the same room whilst sleeping prevents the baby from going into a very deep sleep then suffering apnea (stopping breathing) hence why overheating also important as they get hot - go into deep sleep and can stop breathing. We have breathing monitor aswell & I always prefer to err on side of caution. I bought a cheap cot from eBay (got new mattress) that fit in our room when our first outgrew Moses basket. We've used it second time round. Could you fit a travel cot in at all? You can buy comfier mattresses for them quite cheaply x

ILoveSaladReallyIDo Sat 29-Dec-12 17:38:51

a lot of sleep positioners have been recalled, they're considered dangerous because if the baby flips they can be stuck and suffocate (I used one with no1 and that one was recalled, I had to throw it away as couldn't sell something that was now considered unsafe)

apparently you can't rescussitate "true" SIDS, so by the time a motion monitor alerts you it's too late

monitor doesn't really tell you anything other than when the baby is okay and wants you, doesn't tell you when they're not okay

yes they "sleep better" i.e. deeper in their own room, but you don't want them sleeping TOO deeply and going into apnoea, they get jolted out of apnoea by hearing your movements and breathing apparently

shouldIbecrossaboutthis Sat 29-Dec-12 20:18:10

The only reason I want to move him is because he is off the charts for height and doesn't fit in the bedside cot, we all sleep fine where he is.

I know a monitor etc wont prevent sids, but I wondered if the rule about them being in your room was linked to other risks. So if they are in your room, you hear them breathing, see them going under the blankets, feel the room was too hot. I didn't know (and that's why I started this thread) what is was about being in the room that was important.

I get that it's our breathing now. Different studies say different risks, but I can't find a study that explains why the risk is greater in their own room. Just that it is.

Ameybee Sat 29-Dec-12 21:17:23

Its probably just a combination of things why they are safer in with you. I know lots of people who have put them in their own room earlier & its all been fine. I just know I personally wouldn't settle. Hope you figure out what works best for you xxx grin

Ameybee Sat 29-Dec-12 21:18:53

Ps we put our bedside tables in garage to accommodate a normal sized cot in our room (cot bed we had too big). Maybe you could jig furniture about? X

shouldIbecrossaboutthis Sun 30-Dec-12 00:03:35

sadly we just don't have the space, all we have in the room in a king size bed, headboard and fitted wardrobes. I think I might just put him in the bed with us. Will have to see if it's the same safety wise.

ILoveSaladReallyIDo Sun 30-Dec-12 00:08:36

can you fit a single in the baby's room with the cot in there too then and go in there for a few months?

CoolaYuleA Sun 30-Dec-12 00:15:34

Sleep positioners of any type are definitely not recommended - see the FAQ section of the FSID website for more information ref that.

The main issue with SIDS is that despite all the research (my family has been involved for thirty years - lots of babies!) there is still no definitive answer as to why some babies die.

Therefore there is no definitive answer to your question explaining WHY the risk of them being in their own room is greater.

There is evidence though. From the thousands of babies studied the research has shown that sleeping in a separate room under six months doubles the risk of SIDS. link to research So whilst there is still no definitive WHY, analysis of babies who have died from SIDS, and their environment, show that of the recorded deaths the number of babies who were in their own room when they died was significantly higher than the number of babies who were room-sharing with their parent/s (primary caregivers).

For me the evidence is enough - whilst I would like to know why, all I really need to know is that babies are clearly at significantly higher risk of SIDS in their own room than they are in the parents room. This is borne out by the fact that more babies die in their own rooms than in with their parents. The why isn't as important as the evidence.

CoolaYuleA Sun 30-Dec-12 00:24:31

Bedsharing isn't recommended either unfortunately. Studies have shown that there is an increase in risk (this is actually a new research to me).

Research

Pages 1, 7-11.

My DD grew out of her moses basket really quickly too - have you thought about a crib? They are longer than a moses basket, but not significantly wider - in fact with the handles, stand etc the outside dimensions of the basket were wider than our crib. They aren't expensive either - we got ours from Kiddicare for about £50 and it was perfectly fine for DD until she was past six months.

This might be a good compromise if you can't fit the cot in, but DS is too big for the moses basket.

CoolaYuleA Sun 30-Dec-12 00:32:12

This is the crib we have, it's gone up since we bought ours, but it's really well made and DD slept great in it.

Ignore the bumper though, as they aren't recommended either (so many things aren't, tis a minefield lol!) - we have these, first on the crib, now on the cot Airwrap.

IIRC rebreathing exhaled air has been put forward as a possible cause, and some studies claim that bumpers can trap exhaled air in the cot - airwraps protect the baby from bumps but are completely breathable.

We bought this crib mattress (also had the matching one in the moses basket) following consultation with our CONI adviser at FSID.

sedgieloo Sun 30-Dec-12 12:57:16

Related question please - given theories on baby hearing parents breathing and regulating their own breathing and it interrupting apnea, any thoughts on (fairly loud) white noise whilst sleeping in the same room?

This is what I do (ocean) not realising what's behind the room sharing.

Op apologies for a bit of a hijack.

Zimbah Sun 30-Dec-12 16:16:07

CoolYule that's interesting on bedsharing. I bedshare and thought that as long as it was safely done it didn't increase SIDS risks, but obviously this is a new analysis. I wonder if the underlying papers that fed into the analysis are accessible without Medline access, I'd be interested to read them. It's a good thing I'm not planning on any more DCs as I don't know how I'd get through it without bedsharing but not sure I would want to take the risk if it's how it appears.

ILoveSaladReallyIDo Sun 30-Dec-12 16:20:19

I used white noise but just to get the baby off to sleep, once settled I turned it off, do you leave it on all the time? I think its the deep sleep periods that are the dangerous bits from the sounds of it

bigkidsdidit Sun 30-Dec-12 16:27:15

that's really interesting about the bedsharing. People on here get quite irate saying the evidence shows a reduced risk with co-sleeping, but that evidence you show CoolYule looks pretty comprehensive

I turned the white noise off once DS was settled too smile

is there anything bigger than a moses basket that would fit in a smallish bedroom? DS went into his cotbed at 3 months in our room but I'm pg again and we've since moved, no way would a cotbed fit in our bedroom now. What do you put your babies in post moses basket?

BertieBotts Sun 30-Dec-12 16:27:41

Nobody knows why, it's a numbers game. Proportionally, more babies who slept in their own rooms died from cot death than those who didn't, and that is the reason for the advice.

Fortunately the numbers are now so low that we will never find out why, because it doesn't happen often enough for any reliable studies. The Bradford sleep study is the most up to date research about cot death that we have, and that is based on average cot death rates in differing communities which tend to have different practices - nothing concrete, because figures are too low.

zeeboo Sun 30-Dec-12 16:30:50

"If there's a reason I'll keep him in with us"

No dear, they just put that as part of the recommendations to fill up space on the leaflet.

ILoveSaladReallyIDo Sun 30-Dec-12 16:31:10

we are very lucky aren't we?, both my mum and my nan knew a number of people in their mum/peer group who lost babies to SIDS, and thank god I don't know anyone at all first hand who has from my generation as it is much rarer now thanks to the research.

By definition it's unexplained isn't it? if a cause of death is found it isn't SIDS is it?, so we just have the risk factors to go on but I'm very glad we do have that at least!

BertieBotts Sun 30-Dec-12 16:31:27

CoolYule Do you know what that meta-analysis study was? I have always thought that the big problem with bedsharing studies is that they tend to lump ALL sleep-sharing in together, including unsafe bedsharing and sofa sharing which is extremely dangerous. I can't see where it says what the study was but I suspect this might be the case with this one too.

BertieBotts Sun 30-Dec-12 16:33:45

Oh it's okay - I've found it now smile Will read in a while and come back to thread.

Zimbah Sun 30-Dec-12 16:36:20

Bertie please report back on your findings to save me doing the research myself grin

CoolaYuleA Sun 30-Dec-12 23:39:52

bigkids we used a crib once DD grew out of the Moses Basket - it was longer but not really any wider. I linked to the one we had on the previous page. It was fine until she could sit up unaided.

cheesebaby Mon 31-Dec-12 00:25:30

Bertie has it in one - the meta-analysis in question didn't include any new data, and was therefore based on existing studies, the majority (arguable all) of which have serious limitations with regard to the risk of bedsharing in the absence of smoking, alcohol or drugs, and excluding sofa sharing.

The truth is that the data from studies involving many thousands of babies show that babies sleeping alone are at higher risk of SIDS; however nobody really knows why this is.

The bedsharing studies have thrown up a wide range of results. Unfortunately when the larger studies were done, the very detailed data which we would now like to be seen analysed to allow us to assess the risk for babies of non smoking, breastfeeding, sober bed-sharers just wasn't collected. As SIDS rates have fallen the opportunity to collect these data on a large enough scale has, thankfully, disappeared, so it is unlikely that we will ever get a clear answer as to whether there is any evidence for an 'inherent' risk from bedsharing, in the absence of other known risk factors.

The study referenced by posters above simply lumps these earlier studies together, complete with pre-existing limitations, and so really adds nothing new to the debate.

However, what we can say is, for babies bedsharing with non smoking breastfeeding mothers who are not on alcohol or drugs, the magnitude of any increased risk (if it exists at all) appears to be vanishingly small - in the order of an increase in rates from 0.5/10,000 to 1/10,000.

Startail Mon 31-Dec-12 01:02:16

And the harm from giving up BFing and the risk of DH crashing his car being kept awake by screening baby make the benefits of bed sharing a total non brainer!

There is no 'harm' in giving up bf Startail formula isn't posion ffs.

needsadviceplease Mon 31-Dec-12 10:03:25

No, not poison, but inferior to bm, yes? However slightly. Same as the very slight change in SIDS risk for bedsharing. Tiny tiny risk, and all any of us can do is make the best decision for our families.

bigkidsdidit Mon 31-Dec-12 10:06:28

Thanks for the crib link cool yule

Startail Mon 31-Dec-12 10:36:11

Blondie I have done both and no I don't think there is anything wrong in FF.

I do think there is an enormous amount wrong in sabotaging BFing due to fear of co- sleeping.

Whatever, the medical advantages of BFing, which in the first world are probably pretty small. The convenience and ease of BFing over fussing about with bottles is huge.

shouldIbecrossaboutthis Mon 31-Dec-12 12:21:54

Coolayule – “whilst I would like to know why, all I really need to know is that babies are clearly at significantly higher risk of SIDS in their own room than they are in the parents room. This is borne out by the fact that more babies die in their own rooms than in with their parents. The why isn't as important as the evidence.”

But this is what I’m trying to determine, the why is important to me. Is it the fact that they were in their own rooms (ie. unable to regulate own breathing without other breathing to remind them) or is it the fact they were in their own rooms AND too hot or underneath blankets or unsupervised/out of ear shot etc & because they were by themselves these things went un-noticed.

His bedside crib he is in now is 90cm long and 54cm wide, so the same length & a bit wider than the one you linked too. DS is 77cm long. He pushes himself off the bottom of the cot & hits his head on the top. His room is tiny too, but I might just get a camping mat down, I have a broken coycx though so will have to wait for that to feel better!

Bertie, thanks for mentioning a study, I will have a read.

Zeeboo – there is no need to be rude. I’m asking a legitimate question & thinking about the reasons behind the advice. Do you not understand the op?

I understand that SIDS is unexplained death in a child under 1. I don’t understand why the research says there is up to 10 times a greater risk of SIDS if a child sleeps in own room, I wonder if other factors had been lumped in.

I wondered if this risk would be reduced if you remove the risk of suffocation (he is too mobile now for sleep positioner & we use growbags, nothing else is in cot), overheating (we have a thermometer & dress him accordingly), being out of ear shot (We have monitor that I clip to myself as I’m a worrier) etc. Or if the 10 times greater risk study (which I can't find) accounted for these factors.

Like I said I wont put him in his own room if the risks are still there. If parents breathing plays a role in it, I would like to read what it is about parents breathing & if this can be reliably mimicked by something else, like a ticking clock as someone says upthread. Although I would worry about batteries running out!

2 friends have lost their babies to sids so I do worry about it. But I also realise the advice is sometimes a bit of blanket approach in order to keep things simple.

DoodleHolly Tue 01-Jan-13 09:14:52

Can I add on a query please? I've recently learnt about keeping them downstairs for naps too. Didn't with DS and currently pg.

DS grew out of his Moses basket fairly early and I wondered what (cheap) sleep solutions people used downstairs after their dc grew out of Moses basket? Am likely to have cs and not lots of support after first few weeks so won't necessarily be up to carrying something up and downstairs

dishwashervodkaanddietirnbru Tue 01-Jan-13 09:23:02

I used a fully reclined buggy for dd (suitable from birth) and for ds I used the carry cot bit of the pram/travel system we bought for him.

FrameyMcFrame Tue 01-Jan-13 09:29:09

Mine slept in their buggies downstairs after they grew out of the Moses basket.

DoodleHolly Tue 01-Jan-13 09:43:47

Yeah unfortunately we don't have a pram carrycot and I'm wondering whether keeping them in a lie flat pushchair without a mattress is actually better than sleeping upstairs.

Might have to play it by ear but DS would have outgrown a crib by six months as well. Wondering about just a mattress on the flit but then it's not very ventilated.

Zimbah Tue 01-Jan-13 22:12:05

OP, I don't think you'll be able to unpick what the real risk to your baby of sleeping in his own room would be, or exactly why, because it's not known how sleeping in the same room as a parent prevents SIDS. I don't think you can mimic the effect of the baby being around adults breathing because it's not known what the reason is. I remember reading something about it possibly being to do with CO2 being breathed out, obviously you can't mimic that. There could well be other physiological cues between parent and child that reduce the risk.

Do you have any storage space e.g. a loft? Just wondering if it would be an option for you to remove your bed frame into loft/garage, and put the mattress on the floor with a small mattress next to it for your baby, obviously it might need some work to make it a safe sleeping arrangement.

MikeOxardInTheSnow Tue 01-Jan-13 22:53:09

Ds naps downstairs in his bouncy chair. We had a moses basket downstairs for him but he didn't like it! I never thought about just a mattress on the floor, this is what they have at nursery.

CoolaYuleA Tue 01-Jan-13 23:26:02

After DD grew out of her Moses basket she napped downstairs either in her lie flat pushchair or on a mattress on the floor, flat and firm, not in a draught so all boxes ticked! Pushchair was often easiest as her monitor went in the shopping basket underneath, but the mattress was useful too.

SquidgersMummy Tue 01-Jan-13 23:54:17

Previously I'd read younger maternal age was a risk - it was a negative slight on teenage mothers I think. Have they scrapped this?

I worry so much about SIDS. We co-sleep (dd 21wks), we used to use an attached cot but dd now face plants onto the mattress in the night when she is looking for me so i now have her nearer to at least keep her on her back, or her side at the very least if shes being stubborn. I am fastidious about temp, clothing, bedding, naps in same room and we go to bed at same time (luckily dd naturally a 9-9 sleeper)..... Cosleeping is sooo taboo in certain circles it's hindering the research. I think prepared cosleeping is the key - I think very few families have never had the baby in the bed but occasional, exhaustion fuelled cosleeping is possibly more dangerous?? We need to be honest about what we do and then try to learn best ways from each other. I asked my HV what to do re face planting and all she could muster was that we were low SIDS risk because of bfing confused So I worry, I read all the research (thanks for links!!) and I am grateful for any safe cosleeping tips! X

CoolaYuleA Wed 02-Jan-13 01:38:39

The younger maternal age is still in there - whether or not it's seen to be a negative slight research shows a higher incidence of SIDS in babies with younger mothers.

I know we were told by FSID, our CONI co-ordinator, paediatrician and HV not to co-sleep at all, ever, but no doubt that was partly to do with our situation. I do think more research needs to be done though to try to at least quantify the risk, if any, in more detailed situations.

LeBFG Sat 05-Jan-13 08:18:42

The risk of SIDS/co-sleeping are there but small compared with other risks like smoking and prone-sleeping (there are also other significant risks out of our control, such as sex of baby, prematurity and whether it's first born). So there is always rife debate on MN about the risks of co-sleeping. I personally believe most of this attitude is well summarised by Startail's comment: I do think there is an enormous amount wrong in sabotaging BFing due to fear of co- sleeping.

Anyway, anyway. I've just had a thought (early morning brain disclaimer). We obssess over the co-sleeping evidence: have they separated out sofa sleepers or occassional sleepers? Drug and alcohol users etc. But as SIDS death is classed as death by no known cause, I wonder how many deaths would be classified as suffocation and thus excluded from SIDS studies? I wonder this because (cynical old me) I don't believe the majority of co-sleepers do so safely. You're meant to sleep without a duvet, no headboard, probably on a floor matress etc. Not be overweight. Bf only. What are the general risks of death (SIDS + other) in groups that don't include drug/alcohol users?

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