Naked kids on the beach - would you let them?

(389 Posts)
ssd Mon 30-May-05 17:52:49

I mean would you let your say 6 year old play naked on the beach?

Today thanks to the sun at last we went to the beach, it was fairly busy. A family next to us let their approx. 6 year old boy play around the waters edge naked for a while before the cold got to him and he put on pants as in underpants. The other kids ages about 3 - 9 years old were playing in their underpants (all boys).

Now I'm not prudish but I don't think its acceptable to let a child play on a beach naked, nor would I want an older child playing in his pants. My ds1 would never play and run around in front of strangers in only his pants and he's 7, the other kids I mean were older than him.

I don't care what anyone does at home or in their garden, but I'd want them dressed more appropriately at a beach.

What do you think?

desperatehousewife Mon 30-May-05 17:56:01

I wouldn't mind it at all. Underpants look the same as swimming trunks anyway. Personal viewpoint though.

Nemo1977 Mon 30-May-05 17:57:43

I wouldnt let ds play naked on beach or in garden. He does run around naked at home and he is only 19mths but tbh i think
1. u dont know who is looking and i know its bad to think that way but its about trying to protect your kids
2. the weather if it is hot and sunny i try to cover him wiht shorts n t shirt then cream up everywhere else..i can imagine putting cream on his tinky..lol

Nemo1977 Mon 30-May-05 17:58:14

meant to say i dont mind the underpants its just being naked

GRMUM Mon 30-May-05 17:58:21

Sorry but I think there are far more important things to worry about than this. If he wasn't embarrassed why should you be. I can guarantee that by age 10 (at the latest) he will be covering up!

stitch Mon 30-May-05 17:59:02

i wouldnt like it.
home is different. the beach is a public place.

Fran1 Mon 30-May-05 18:00:59

Oh what is the world coming to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes i would let do and will let my dd run around naked on the beach, i'm sure at some point she'll decide she would rather wear clothes. Shes only 2.5 now.

If esp hot then i'd put her in a tshirt so she doesn't burn but she'd still be naked waist down.

It's what i always did as a child, and wouldn't bat an eyelid at anyone else doing it, whatever their age/sex.

jessicasmummy Mon 30-May-05 18:02:32

not bothered up to the age of say 6/7 - after that i think you should be covered.

little girl next door the other day running around with just a t-shirt on - why not?!

when jess is old enough, i would elt her too.... as long as it isnt TOO hot

emily05 Mon 30-May-05 18:02:35

totally agree with Fran1

lucy5 Mon 30-May-05 18:02:55

I let dd who is 4.5 run around naked on the beach but i dont think I would at 7 , i'd leave her pants on. Whether she would keep them on is another thing, she's definetly a naturist at heart. I don't know where she gets it from, it's not me or dh. She's always stripping off, which doesnt go down with the Spanish especially in December when they are in Fur coats and balaclavas.

Fran1 Mon 30-May-05 18:04:46

ssd if your child chose to take their clothes off because they were hot, or just cos they saw others naked, would you force them to put them back on?

LGJ Mon 30-May-05 18:04:53

Fran1


My twin............

stitch Mon 30-May-05 18:05:39

i would feel visually assaulted.
why should i be forced to see some childs bits.....
same as i am assaulted by the mounds of pale wobbly flesh i have to see as soon as the sun comes out in england.
but i am in the minority.
private parts are called private for a reason.

Fran1 Mon 30-May-05 18:05:52

lol

swiperfox Mon 30-May-05 18:07:28

It's a bit of both really these days - there's so much awareness of paedophiles etc that it would always be in your mind wh is looking at them but at the same time when i was little all the kids used to run around naked on the beach and no-one thought twice about it - it was just fun and carefree.

It makes me sad that we have to think twice about it.

Fran1 Mon 30-May-05 18:08:04

omg i am shocked that some of you feel this way, and think i better leave soon before the steam comes out my ears.

But, do you not think its important for your children to love their bodies and enjoy them as long as poss before they grow up and have flabby bits?

I'd worry about giving my child a complex if i constantly tried to keep her covered up.

lucy5 Mon 30-May-05 18:11:30

paedophiles will look at your kids whether they have clothes on or not. DD was approached by a right weirdo at the airport last week offering her a sweet. There is such a short time when they can have freedom and no inhibitions, I think let them make the most of it and not make them body conscious before they have to be.

lucy5 Mon 30-May-05 18:12:04

Fran1 SNAP!

ambrosia Mon 30-May-05 18:14:03

my dd (6) was running round naked on devon beach last week...dont see anything wrong with it.

Blossomhill Mon 30-May-05 18:26:28

Unfortunately as sad as I think it is I would not let my children go naked anywhere in public.
You jsut can't trust anyone these days and I don't want to take any chances that some paedo. is lurking around looking at my kids. I am even funny about the costumes I put dd in, they have to really cover her up. The other thing is that I am also paranoid about so do tend to put a t-shirt on them as well for extra protection.

swiperfox Mon 30-May-05 18:31:08

didn't really answer the question did i? lol I would definately let them run around naked - although it might cross my mind not to I still would and totally agree with fran1 and lucy5

Cooperoo Mon 30-May-05 18:37:06

I can't see it as a problem. DD often wanders around the house naked and in the garden with just a t-shirt on and I wouldn't hide her just because somebody came to the door. The only reason I wouldn't do it here is because of the strength of the sun as others have mentioned. I am in Cyprus and so dd is in a protective sunsuit and hat if we are at the beach. I think as long as the child was happy then it is no problem. It is more important to me that they are comfortable in their bodies. It is an interesting one though. How do people feel about topless sunbathing??

Cooperoo Mon 30-May-05 18:38:11

Topless adult ladies I mean.

Chickyboo Mon 30-May-05 18:45:22

Oh my god! I've just realised I must be really liberal.
I also agrees that peodophiles look at children with or without clothes.

sophable Mon 30-May-05 18:45:56

and we wonder why we have a massively high teen pregnancy rate, and a totally warped attitude to sex and our bodies. i'm really sorry but to have a problem with a child's 'bits', to feel 'visually assualted' by them implies some serious issues to me...

Blossomhill Mon 30-May-05 18:48:31

I am afraid it is the world we live in today. Shouldn't be this way but as it is I for one am keeping my 2 covered !!!!

Mud Mon 30-May-05 18:50:00

I am totally saddened that anyone would see an issue with a 6 or 7 year old running around naked

And I bet you are the same kinds of people who think kids grow up too fast too. Well they do because idiots think there's an issue with kids being kids.

As long as they were protected from the sun good for them and good for their parents - it is wonderful to think there are still people around who believe in the joy of childhood without warping their kids to feel dirty

sophable Mon 30-May-05 18:53:23

blossom i sort of understand your point of view, i don't agree with it, and it makes me sad, but i can see where you're coming from. i cannot for the life of me see the attitude that children's genitalia are somehow offensive, should be kept private and are a visual assault as anything but suspect and that's being kind.

Soupdragon Mon 30-May-05 18:55:29

I don't think I'd like my DSs to be running about naked on a public beach, simply because I wouldn't know who's watching or taking photos They can run round butt naked in the garden and the gardens of friends if they want though. The first thing DS1 and his friend did last summer when the friend came to tea was to get naked in the garden

I'm nut sure I understand the problem with running about in pants though... they're the same as swimming trunks!!

Satine Mon 30-May-05 18:56:09

Totally agree with Mud and Fran1. They are children, fgs, let them enjoy being carefree and uninhibited. What would you say to your child if they asked why they couldn't be naked like the other children? Yes, I realise that there is a small chance that a paedophile might see them but a rapist or serial killer might see me, or a drunk driver might not see my car....you'd go completely nuts if you spent your life terrified of what might happen.There are no more paedophiles around today than there were 30 years ago when I ran around naked.

Caligula Mon 30-May-05 18:57:20

Agree with Mud. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to get uptight about a six year old naked. And for those of you who are scared of paedo's being turned on by the sight of your kids naked - what about the paedo's who are turned on by the sight of a child in a school uniform? D'you stop your child wearing school uniform as well, on the offchance that a pervert might like it?

I am far more disturbed by the sight of a little girl in a prostitute outfit with Barbie written across it (which appears to be all the rage now).

Soupdragon Mon 30-May-05 18:59:13

30 years ago though there weren't digital cameras or the internet. It's the accessability rather than the frequency that worries me.

Mud Mon 30-May-05 19:00:26

so you worry and restrict your kids from being kids and who wins???

Mud Mon 30-May-05 19:00:54

big brother is watching my kids and he's a paed

Soupdragon Mon 30-May-05 19:02:36

Thing is, I don't think I'm stopping my children from being kids just by making them wear pants or trunks on a public beach. I don't see it as restricting them in any way.

kama Mon 30-May-05 19:03:27

Message withdrawn

Satine Mon 30-May-05 19:03:51

Am really shocked by Stitch feeling that she/he is 'visually assaulted' by the sight of a child's naked body. I can't even articulate how incredible I find that statement.

SoupDragon Mon 30-May-05 19:05:22

Have to say that I was a bit surprised at the strength of that statement. I couldn't give 2 hoots about other children being naked on the beach.

Blossomhill Mon 30-May-05 19:09:18

Agree with soupdragon. Nowadays with thinsg like camera phones you really cannot be careful. I am not having some paedo. getting off from looking at my naked children. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Mud Mon 30-May-05 19:16:50

paedophiles are no more prevalent than when we were young, they just hit the papers more frequently. and a paedophile would get equal pleaseure from seeing your child in a school uniform.

as I have just watched strictly ballroom I would like to add that 'a life lived in fear is a life half lived' and you're passing that fear on to your children .. a paedophile is not around every corner but you can sure your live your life that way if you want to

MrsWood Mon 30-May-05 19:20:28

In Croatia, where I grew up, children to this day quite comfortably walk naked around the beach so I'm kind of used to it and would let my kids do the same. There is always a fear of some peadophile lurking around but I can't let myself think that way, or I will soon be wrapping my kids in cotton wool... I also think it's kind of good not to have swim suits on as the kids can catch all sorts of infections through wet suit / cold air / wind combination. My mum had a bad case of ovaries infection when she was around 10 due to the same reasons and unfortunately had terrible problems in later life - very painful periods, one ovary couldn't function at all, infections "down there" every so often and so on. I'm not saying that might happen to kids wearing swim suits, but whilst they're young and can walk naked gracefully with no complex, why not let them?

morningpaper Mon 30-May-05 19:22:22

I agree with Caligula and Fran1 - it's such a short time in their lives that they are happy with their bodies and can run around uninhibited - I think it's something to celebrate, not hide away.

LGJ Mon 30-May-05 19:23:01

Mrs Wood


For you

MrsWood Mon 30-May-05 19:24:57

LGJ - lol, got me kind of worried there - thought it was pics of kids naked in Croatia being watched by some peados... Thta would show me!

coppertop Mon 30-May-05 19:25:09

Ds1 is nearly 5 and was at the paddling pool at the local park in just pants and a T-shirt. The T-shirt was on because I was worried about sunburn and not because I thought someone might be watching. I agree with Caligula's point about finding it far more disturbing to see young girls dressed in adult outfits.

WideWebWitch Mon 30-May-05 19:31:45

I think it's fine at the age of SIX. Fgs, whyever wouldn't it be? Six is a child, at six children shouldn't be ashamed of nudity. If they can't run around on a beach naked or in pants at six when can they? (I assume never is the answer to that for some people). And who cares about a child playing in his pants? Well, other than ssd, obviously, I just don't see the problem.

WideWebWitch Mon 30-May-05 19:33:09

Am shocked at the strength of your post stitch, have to go but may come back to this.

morocco Mon 30-May-05 19:37:44

ofgs
let them be kids - no need for them to get our hangups too early on in life.
can I also ask,
do some of you really spend all that time worrying about pervs hanging round trying to get photos of your kids on their mobiles? (incredulous tone) worrying someone will kidnap them - that I could understand, but what on earth is the point worrying that someone is going to take their photo.

hunkermunker Mon 30-May-05 19:39:28

Stitch - visually assaulted?! Forced to see a child's bits? Don't look! I doubt they'd come and waggle them in your face.

I have no problem whatsoever with naked children on the beach or in the back garden - it's up to them. I think there are more problems caused in UK society by the strange juxtaposition of OTT prudishness and titillating flaunting we see in newspapers and on tv.

Also, LGJ, I'd like a word with you. I thought I was your twin?

Snafu it is then

singersgirl Mon 30-May-05 19:40:59

Personally don't have a problem with it, but my nearly 7 yr old DS has himself started to be occasionally 'shy' of showing himself naked to others - nothing anyone's said, I think it just ties in with wanting to be alone to go to the loo and that sort of thing. So I don't think he would want to run around naked on a beach anymore.
Really wouldn't seriously occur to me that anyone might be watching them - if they were, I suppose I feel that they'd probably be almost as excited by swimwear anyway.

LGJ Mon 30-May-05 19:44:43

Did I say my MN twin did I ??


Well did I ??


No I just happened to agree with the girl, where were you then ??


Well ??


Well ??

Gobbledigook Mon 30-May-05 19:45:32

I would have no issue at all with children playing naked on the beach.

However, I think I'd prefer mine to have pants on in a public place such as this. Like someone else said, while there are probably no more paedophiles than there were 30 years ago, it is easier to take and share photographs without someone's knowledge.

After swimming, I do take the ds's shorts off at the side of the pool and they stand under the poolside shower naked - I guess I don't feel as 'vulnerable' there as nobody could be photographing them.

I don't think putting pants on them at the beach would give them a complex about their bodies - it's not as if a parent would say 'come on put your clothes on, some paedo could be taking photos of you to w**k over and put on the internet' - you just put shorts on them! It's hardly an odd thing to do.

hunkermunker Mon 30-May-05 19:45:40

Nice wriggle, LGJ. You're (just) forgiven

Thomcat Mon 30-May-05 19:45:43

My DD is 3 & a half, on holiday this year, on the beach she'll probbably have a swimmer nappy on tbh but it will probably come off at times when we're playing in the water, I don't know I'll play it by ear.

I think if she were old enough to be playing sandcastles with her bum up in the air digging moats etc, she'd have a pair of bikini bottoms on yes, while whe's in my arms being carrried into the sea for a dip, no I'd probably let her be naked.

Actually having said all that thinking about it, she'll actually be wearing a UV sunsuit so.....!

nerdgirl Mon 30-May-05 19:47:11

How about this one then - have just come home from the gym where I was informed that my 7 year old ds is no longer allowed in the ladies changing room and that I am expected to send him into the mens changing room on his own!!
Absolutely livid!

Gobbledigook Mon 30-May-05 19:49:00

Nerdgirl - mine are still little but it's the same at our gym and I've thought how on earth do you do that? I usually take them, not dh and I won't be sending a 7 yr old into the male changing on his own!!

Prufrock Mon 30-May-05 19:49:29

No I wouldn't - but that's only because I make sure mine are always in UV sits whenever teh sun comes out - they've both inherited my ultra pale and burnable skin. I see nothing wrong with naked children on a public beach, or even in a park where there is a paddling pool.

I have said this before and been lambasted, so can I just emphasise that i do not think peadophilia is OK - I think it is abhorrent. But if somebody does take a picture of my dd running around on the beach without her or me knowing, how does that harm her? It's wrong, it's sick, but it doesn't actually harm my dd - wheras making her think that there is something terrible about her naked body, or making her afraid of teh bad things that strange menmight do to her can causeall sorts of physcological problems.

hunkermunker Mon 30-May-05 19:50:03

Seven and they want him in the male changing room on his own?! I would say that they need to have a family changing room and until they provide it, he'll be coming in with you.

nerdgirl Mon 30-May-05 19:50:36

Me either! They'll have to physically restrain me from bringing him into the ladies and then I came on here and read stitch's 'visually assaulted' comment and now I want to 'physically assault' someone!!

lucy5 Mon 30-May-05 19:51:32

Now that I would be worried about, disgraceful!

Gobbledigook Mon 30-May-05 19:51:38

I don't see how having pants/shorts on them in public is giving them a complex about their body though - it's not as though they are dressed differently to anyone else and you and your dp would probably have pants on too. You don't have to discuss why you have them on - you just do!

hunkermunker Mon 30-May-05 19:51:45

I would be very interested to hear why they don't want him in the ladies' changing room. Do they think he'll look at ladies?! FFS!!!

Or are women complaining about being visually assaulted by the sight of a child in the altogether?

LGJ Mon 30-May-05 19:52:16

HM

They have a family changing area at our Cannons, it seems to work quite well.

Gobbledigook Mon 30-May-05 19:52:32

Hunker, I'm gonig to ask at ours next time I go in!

hunkermunker Mon 30-May-05 19:53:08

Good on you, GDG!

Glad to hear it LGJ!

<<I want a third initial...>>

lucy5 Mon 30-May-05 19:53:44

I dont think it's about having pants on them, I think it's about feeling you have to.

Gobbledigook Mon 30-May-05 19:53:52

Call yourself Hunkermunkergunker then!!

hunkermunker Mon 30-May-05 19:54:24

Er...maybe I'll stick to HM

I could always go back to being sneaky...

nerdgirl Mon 30-May-05 19:55:39

I did ask Hunker and apparently the 'line has to be drawn somewhere' and 'government advice' is that children can change unsupervised at that age so that's the rule!! And if he slips and falls!! Who picks him up?!?! Aaagh!! Just go angry!! Bloody manager actually tried to equate my ds entering the changing room and a grown man doing it!!

hunkermunker Mon 30-May-05 19:57:37

NG!

I would ask them to provide evidence of the government advice (then write to my MP to challenge it if it was forthcoming).

Then I would say that I was changing in the men's changing room with him

As for equating a seven-year-old with a grown man - mental!

ssd Mon 30-May-05 19:57:51

I didn't think when I started this thread it would get so many answers and TBH some of them are taking the question a bit too far.......

Of course children should be allowed to play however they want, within reason. And their innocence should be respected and not discouraged. If my ds's had wanted to strip off and run into the water and they saw no harm in it, I would be tempted to let them. But I'd put trunks or the underwear on them, letting them run around buck naked makes me uncomfortable for them. And that's my opinion ladies, no need to get hot under the collar as some of you have!!

Live and let live.....

Jimjams Mon 30-May-05 19:59:35

no choice my autistic son is stripping left right and centre (he's 6).

nerdgirl- we have this problem coming up - ds1 cannot get dressed (physically I mean) let alone go anywhere without supervision (he's non verbal). The idea of him actually looking at ladies bits is laughable (wouldn't be interested unless they looked like a washing machine). They do have disabled changing rooms that are big enough to use- so I'll take that option.

ssd Mon 30-May-05 19:59:54

BTW I'd be more uncomfortable with my ds age 7 running around naked, the little 4 year old wouldn't bother me.

Don't know why..

Jimjams Mon 30-May-05 20:01:12

ng- the disabled changing rooms are separate within the ladies iyswim

Blossomhill Mon 30-May-05 20:03:11

Morocco - it is my opinion and they are *my children. Please do not mock me for trying to protect them.
I think the more protection ofr children the better. Have you not watched the news and seen how bad child sex offences have become. I believe in my borough alone there are around 900 convicted sex offenders on the offenders list list. Isn't that enough to worry anyone. Also when you receive a letter from your child's school telling you that they have found some weirdo in the bushes taking pictures of your children in the school playground with a camera phone yes it does worry me and no I am not going to apologise for the way I feel.

LGJ Mon 30-May-05 20:03:23

I don't care what anyone does at home or in their garden, but I'd want them dressed more appropriately at a beach.

Whatdo you think?



A little while later...........

And that's my opinion ladies, no need to get hot under the collar as some of you have!!

Live and let live.....


SSD

With respect,it is a discussion forum, you post you wait, you sift, you move on.

Gobbledigook Mon 30-May-05 20:06:03

Absolutely BH.

PinkFluffPudding Mon 30-May-05 20:08:09

Nerdgirl - I would boycott the gym along with a strongly worded explanation why you will be withdrawing your business along with a demand for a refund on any up-front fees you may have paid. You have justifiable reasons for doing this IMO.

This kind of crazy hysteria just should not be tolerated.

hunkermunker Mon 30-May-05 20:11:03

BH, paedophiles try to get jobs in shoe shops - it's a nice job for a paedophile to have, according to one (very disturbing) prog I subtitled.

cod Mon 30-May-05 20:12:39

Message withdrawn

sophable Mon 30-May-05 20:13:45

ssd, what are you uncomfortable about exactly...'for them'?

PinkFluffPudding Mon 30-May-05 20:18:21

Did you bury it Cod?

Gobbledigook Mon 30-May-05 20:19:06

I hope you had your pooper scooper with you!

cod Mon 30-May-05 20:20:05

Message withdrawn

cod Mon 30-May-05 20:20:15

Message withdrawn

Blossomhill Mon 30-May-05 20:20:21

Thanks gdg. Hunker - I understand that but I am not going to make it easy for the evil b****s, end of story.

Bugsy2 Mon 30-May-05 20:23:34

I'm always so sad when I hear about parents covering up their children because paedophiles may be lurking on the beach. The children have no idea about paedophiles (I sincerely hope) and they are so innocent and happy. My son is 5.5 and his own natural modesty about his body has kicked in and he doesn't want to scamper around nude any more. His little sister is still happy to. However, as long as I was there to supervise and protect them, then I am pefectly happy for them to be nude, if that is what they want.
The percentage of paedophiles is tiny. They are very sad, sick people but they are not going to spoil my children's innocent childhood.

Caligula Mon 30-May-05 20:39:53

I think most kids come to their own decision about modesty, covering up etc., round about 7 or 8 ish as they become more aware of issues of modesty, covering up, etc. I'd hate to rush that because of screwed up prudish English attitudes to nakedness, and I'd particularly hate to allow a pervert who may or may not be present, to dictate to me whether or not to allow my children to be naked.

Nerdgirl, your gym's madness is a prime example of just how screwed up the English are about children and sexuality. To treat a child of 7 as a potential sexual predator and to want to send him into an environment unprotected from real potential sexual predators, is simply perverse. How absolutely insane.

motherinferior Mon 30-May-05 20:41:50

I'd be happy with nakedness, but I think DP gets worried. I totally see your point too, Prufrock.

assumedname Mon 30-May-05 20:52:54

Re the gym issue - my eldest dd is sometimes shy about changing in front of other girls. How much more so if there are older boys in the changing room?

saadia Mon 30-May-05 21:09:28

I agree with you ssd, I wouldn't let my dss run around naked in public either and they are three and one.

ssd Mon 30-May-05 21:10:11

LGJ, point taken. Still think some replies were over the top. I was wanting others views on naked children on a beach,and if they'd let their kids run and play naked, not their views on my feelings about it.

Sophable, I don't know why it makes me uncomfortable, it just does. I'd be happier to keep them in their trunks in a public place than let them be running around naked.

And that is my view! Of course others have the opposite views and I respect them for it, I'd like to be respected for my views too.

Fran1 Mon 30-May-05 21:10:35

ssd you asked "what do you think" so we are giving our opinions!

If you're gonna live and let live, then don't comment on another family you saw whose child was naked on the beach, who had absolutely nothing to do with you!

Fran1 Mon 30-May-05 21:11:10

ok posts crossed, you've answered the first part!

ssd Mon 30-May-05 21:21:23

I give up!

I wasn't commenting on another family I had nothing to do with Fran, I couldn't care less if everyone let their children play naked.

What I was trying to ask was are you comfortable with your kids naked on a beach, as I'm not.

This was the first time this year I'd been on a beach and I was just surprised to see a bunch of kids much older than toddler age running around in their pants or naked.

Maybe I came across as judgemental on the first post, I didn't mean to.

ssd Mon 30-May-05 21:22:12

Sorry Fran posts crossed again!

TwoIfBySea Mon 30-May-05 21:29:34

I would worry about making children ashamed of their bodies. They are sexualised way too early because of all this paedo fear.

Having said that I let dst (3 1/2) wear either a t-shirt or protective swimsuit. That is because my mum's friend had skin cancer so I am probably over-cautious because I saw what happened to her. But I wouldn't feel at all embarrassed if we were at a beach, without swimmers or anything to let them run around in the buff for a little while. Again my paranoia would mean I wouldn't do that without suncream.

And I am prudish!

stitch Mon 30-May-05 21:51:52

i definitly think children should be allowed to be children.and i think we should teach children to love themselves enough to cover up their private bits.
old fashioned, but not prudish in the least. if a child has enough self respect then they wont end up pregnant at 12 etc. i feel that in the uk chid=ldren are simply not empowered to say no. and not going round naked after the age of about 3or 4 (post potty training) is all part of the empowerment.
as for the visual assault, well, why am i being forced to look away? dangly bits are bad enough, i just dont like having them flashed at mee. i wouldnt say so in rl, as everyone has the right to do as they want. but i just dont like it.
topless adult bathing is just plain sad...

stitch Mon 30-May-05 21:53:53

i dont worry about paedophiles, because i hope that i am teaching my kids to respect themselves, and not to do anything, talk to anyone etc unless they are happy about it.
maybe i am naive, but there are far more dangerous things that are far more likely to happen

hunkermunker Mon 30-May-05 22:05:46

Stitch, that's one way of looking at it - the other is to say that if children are comfortable with their bodies, they won't let other people touch them - whereas if they are made to feel their bodies are somehow something to be ashamed of - well, all sorts of trouble starts there, IMO.

WideWebWitch Mon 30-May-05 22:08:34

Stitch, your assumption that your children won't become victims of paedophiles because, and I quote from your post, " they respect themselves, and not to do anything, (sic) talk to anyone etc unless they are happy about it " is absolutely breathtaking in its ignorance and arrogance.

JustThinking Mon 30-May-05 22:10:03

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JustThinking Mon 30-May-05 22:10:56

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lucy5 Mon 30-May-05 22:11:27

WWW I have to agree with you.

stitch Mon 30-May-05 22:13:54

telling kids to cover up is Not about making them ashamed of their bodies, but about them having self respect.
i cover my body up not because i am ashamed of it, but i see no reason why i should allow strangers to see it. same goes for my kids
its like that advert for the tshirt bra. where the woman says that if she wants a man to see her bra, then she willl let them as opposed to showing every tom dick and harry your lacy bra through your tshirt!

JustThinking Mon 30-May-05 22:15:14

Message withdrawn

LGJ Mon 30-May-05 22:16:50

JT


Walk away, do not even go there..........



There is no correlation, just walk away.



Please

lucy5 Mon 30-May-05 22:16:53

oh please don't say that!

stitch Mon 30-May-05 22:18:12

well, as i said, i am probably naive. but i dont intend to restrict my children to four walls because i am scared stiff of paedophiles. i can only hope that by looking out for them as much as i can, and empowering them with life tools, they will not become victims.

in persia, (i think) a few centuries ago, the mother of the crown prince was so scared about her kid being assasinated, she kept hiim locked up till he was an adult. needless to say he was a tad insane when they let him out.

life is for living, and kids need to be allowed to be kids.

stitch Mon 30-May-05 22:19:02

sorry, have i missed something?
i hope i havent offended anyone?

stitch Mon 30-May-05 22:19:31

jt, what situation are you in?

WideWebWitch Mon 30-May-05 22:19:39

Justthinking I have to go now but I absolutely disagree with you: the contributory negligence argument is an absolute load of old toss designed to let disgustingly behaved reprehensible MEN off the fucking hook for behaving criminally and doing something that is plain wrong, illegal, immoral and wicked (sorry to sound like aloha but the word wicked is totally appropriate here). Please, please, don't apply this argument to yourself. It would be very, very wrong to do so.

LGJ Mon 30-May-05 22:19:55

JT


You are bigger, than that daft thought you just had.

WideWebWitch Mon 30-May-05 22:20:36

But I hope you're ok and I'm not having a go at you.

JustThinking Mon 30-May-05 22:21:22

Message withdrawn

LGJ Mon 30-May-05 22:21:42

Stitch



WWW


Just summed it up perfectly.

stitch Mon 30-May-05 22:21:48

www, i didnt understand your post.
your description of paedophiles is excellent. and they should never be allowed to get away with it.

JustThinking Mon 30-May-05 22:22:32

Message withdrawn

WideWebWitch Mon 30-May-05 22:22:42

stitch, my post was to justthinking, who is applying contributory negligence to her own position.

LGJ Mon 30-May-05 22:22:50

Stitch



Ever heard the expression if in doubt say nothing ???



<<<THUD>>>>>

stitch Mon 30-May-05 22:23:21

someone please spell it out to me. what have i done wrong?

WideWebWitch Mon 30-May-05 22:24:14

stitch, I wasn't having a go at you, if you search on justthinking you'll see what I meant by my posts, I REALLY have to go now!

JustThinking Mon 30-May-05 22:24:42

Message withdrawn

LGJ Mon 30-May-05 22:26:18

If I said two adults and one was defintley not consenting.............would you know what I was talking about ???



And if you figure it out, please dont post it on here, just a yes or OK will suffice, believe me.


LGJ

stitch Mon 30-May-05 22:26:44

omg.....
please do not, under any circupstances think it was your fault.
lots and lots of positive vibes for you. and i hope they lock the bastard away for a very long time.

LGJ Mon 30-May-05 22:27:20

JT


You OK


Stitch


Sorry I was trying to avoid this.

stitch Mon 30-May-05 22:27:57

i am soo sorry.
im just so thick sometimes.......

JustThinking Mon 30-May-05 22:28:12

Message withdrawn

stitch Mon 30-May-05 22:28:59

{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}

JustThinking Mon 30-May-05 22:29:31

Message withdrawn

LGJ Mon 30-May-05 22:30:05

JT


You are a good person and a good mother, don't even go there.


Wake up tomorrow and promise me you will be strong and will see this through.

huggybear Mon 30-May-05 22:45:17

we were on the beach last week and i wouldnt let my boys go naked, to many cameras around iykwim. its a sad fact of life that you automatically assume every one is up to no good...

rickman Mon 30-May-05 23:20:44

Message withdrawn

morocco Mon 30-May-05 23:28:13

just a quick reply to blossomhill
sorry if you felt my remarks were addressed to you personally for some reason but in fact they were addressed to anyone who changes their behaviour with their kids based on their fear that lurkers with mobile phones might be trying to take pictures of their children.
A couple of points (this is my first spat I think on mumsnet after over 2 years - how exciting)
I thought I had made it clear that I was incredulous ie found it hard to believe. I certainly did not mean to be mocking in my tone or I would have written sarcastic but perhaps you thought I was being sarcastic. It quite simply has never ever occured to me before to even think about it. I waas amazed that several people posted independently this fear and wanted to know if other people also changed their behaviour because of the same fear.
I am very sorry you had this scare about lurkers in bushes. I would also be worried about men lurking in bushes but not because they had mobile phones in their hands. Again, I am not being sarcastic - I would be worried about kidnap, assault, indecent exposure (of adult to child not vice versa)or that the photo would be being taken for a later kidnap attempt etc. Anyway, I'm sorry if it touched a raw nerve.
I don't remember asking you, or anyone else, to justify their behaviour on the issue or to apologize for it either - explain, elucidate perhaps

I notice someone else has just posted a similar worry - it seems to be a very Anglo American obsession - do people from other countries have similar worries about photos of children does anyone know?

Blossomhill Mon 30-May-05 23:34:27

Morocco - the reason I believed it was being directed at me is that I was the only person that mentioned camera phones.
I really would rather not get into a slanging match with you about this.
I don't want my children's bits on show and that's, that! I don't think it will affect them at all when they are older and tbh neither of them (especially ds who is 7) would want to anyway!

morocco Mon 30-May-05 23:44:03

I'm glad you posted again blossomhill, it's not usually my style to get into rows and I can understand how you would have strong feelings about it given what's just happened at your school.
(btw, soupie posted a couple of times about it too, honest, )

Blossomhill Mon 30-May-05 23:48:16

No hard feelings
I can't believe you have been on mumsnet for 2 years (longer than me as I have only been on for about a year) and have never ever seen your name ever, unless you have changed it????

morocco Mon 30-May-05 23:52:08

I'm a lurker too
no, I'm not around all that much, although it still seems to take up an unreasonable amount of my time
usually I just post my piece and then wander off (probably there's hundreds of mumsnetters dying to have a fight with me but I just never realised) I'm kind of shortsighted like that in real life too

bobbybob Tue 31-May-05 03:24:33

I would want as much as possible covered, but that's only for sun protection.

jollymum Tue 31-May-05 08:14:10

To the gym issue, they need cubicles and family areas. I took my daughter, who's nearly ten swimming and someone had their two boys in the changing rooms. One was about 7 and the other was about 10/11. I think that's not right, especiially as my daughter refused to undress and there were no cubicles. I'm not prudish, I strip off and don't really mind but these two boys were sitting down on the bench, six inches from my enormous bum and REALLY staring. The mum didn't say a word, I would have said something and my daughter ended up changing "in a towel" like I used to on the beach years ago with my mum and dad. BTW, anyone old enough to remember those changing towels with elastic in the top, like a tent?! Anyway, I was a bit uncomfortable at being stared at so closely and so was my daughter. I think the mum should have said something. Just my opinion.

tamula Tue 31-May-05 08:39:16

Not sure about this one, I'd probably want them to wear at least pants for 'my' sense of decency and worry about paedo's.

However why should my child know about 'my' concerns? they are innocent and without fault, so up until a certain age I would allow them to run about naked (I suppose) but i would be very vigilant and sadly, suspicious of probably everyone nearby!

tamula Tue 31-May-05 08:41:19

Can I re-phrase, Why should my child have to maybe compromise their fun due to 'my' concerns? As obviously they wont 'know'!! I certainly wont tell them!!

LottieG Tue 31-May-05 08:48:02

This thread really saddens me.

Why should children not be allowed to be innocent? And why should anyone have to cover their body?

We all have bodies, most of them are not the media perception of beauty, but they are ALL beautiful in their own way.

As for paedophiles - in southern european countries where so many people are topless and naked at the beach or swimming pool, this is so much less of a problem. Coincidence??

suzywong Tue 31-May-05 08:54:01

I haven't read all this thread, but over here in Perth, Western Australia, beach is so spacious and uncrowded for the most part that parents would notice in a heartbeat any ome with a camera, phone or otherwise, getting dodgy with kids.

However I would not do it on a crowded beach or in any kind of park. Well actually that's not true sometimes it gets so hot here you juts have to let them strip off but I would make eyecontact with everyone who could see them... lord knows what that would do but you get my drift.


SHOCKING about your gym NG

nutcracker Tue 31-May-05 08:59:03

Just wanted to add cos dp reminded me last night that in the street where his ex wife lives a man was convicted a couple of years ago of taking pictures of the children playing naked in their paddling pool, next door but one.

I would like to think I would be comfortable letting my kids strip off in their own back garden but we are over looked by two tower blocks, one of which houses some very strange people.
In our last flat we had to report someone in the block opoosite who had a video camera set up in their window, which was pointing into our flat.

On the beach I would definatly say no after about age 5.

oliveoil Tue 31-May-05 09:04:17

Not read all of these but I don't think there is anything more beautiful than a toddlers little bum and fat legs wobbling innocently in the sun. How on earth could anything in that image offend?

We live in a sad world when we have to start analysing about things like this.

LottieG Tue 31-May-05 09:05:00

Been thinking about this some more....

I would be MUCH more wary of letting children play naked in the UK than elsewhere in Europe. In the same way I will walk alone in the forests here but never would in UK.

Isn't that a sad state of affairs.

Mud Tue 31-May-05 09:17:06

why do those of you who don't let your kids strip off because of fear of paedophiles allow this fear and the existence of sick people rule your actions in this way

I find it incredibly sad and it feels to me that it is going well along the lines of women having to cover up from head to toe because the sight of their foot or hand or elbow will drive a man insane with desire.. yashmak anyone?? Taliban anyone??

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 09:20:02

If there was no such things as paedophiles then yes I would let my child run around naked - but since there are some perverts around they are not going to get their rocks off at my child's expense.

I don't buy the argument that "paedo's will look at your child whether they are clothed or un clothed" - actually I find that argument rather fatuous. Of course they will look if the child is clothed, but I doubt that their level of sexual arousal would be as acute.

All this "it's a sad world we live in...isn't a shame" - of course it is, but we can't change it.

My children are allowed to run around naked as much as they like at home and have no complexes about nudity / their bodies.

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 09:21:21

Just seen you've posted below Mud! - no going to row with you on this one

Join me in the sandpit?

Caligula Tue 31-May-05 09:21:55

Is it because crime against children is higher in the UK than other countries? (I've no idea of the comparative figures?)

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 09:22:58

Would just add, their are very sound (sun protection) reasons for not letting your child wander naked on the beach.

Mine will be kitted out in those anti-uv suits this summer. And thanks for reminding me - really must order those!

Caligula Tue 31-May-05 09:26:19

But HMC how do you know a paedophile's level of sexual arousal would be more acute if a child is naked? I think that's a hugely risky thing to think. Just as many men find women sexier with lacy underwear on, than completely naked, some paedo's get far more turned on by the sight of a little girl in pink wellies and Barbie rain-coat than completely naked.

So whatever your child wears or doesn't wear, you can't predict or guarantee that your choice of attire for her won't be the very thing that a paedo finds an absolute turn-on. So covering her up isn't necessarily "protecting" him/her from a paedo's arousal.

Caligula Tue 31-May-05 09:27:29

I agree I'm more concerned about sun-damage.

Apropos the sun-cream thing, I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that it's better to wear a T-shirt as sun cream just covers up damage, rather than preventing it.

expatinscotland Tue 31-May-05 09:31:27

Naked on a beach. In Scotland? No. The poor bairn would freeze to death.

Toothache Tue 31-May-05 09:34:20

OMG I can't believe how much people psychoanalyse EVERY situation!!

I used to run about naked as a kid.... ahted having a wet swimsuit on!

Let them BE CHILDREN!

Jeeeso. Makes me sad .

suzywong Tue 31-May-05 09:41:25

goodpoint about sun protection, mine only stip off if the beach was impromptu and I forget their bathers

Mud Tue 31-May-05 09:41:38

it is totally a moot point IMO though because any child on a beach should be in a SUNSUIT anyway

HMC no, can't join you, don't want sand to get in my naked bits

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 09:43:34

Toothache,
In response to the "I can't believe how some people physchoanalyse everything...." I could reply "I can't believe the lack of common sense.....etc" (but I won't, because I don't wish to be rude!)

gothicmama Tue 31-May-05 09:49:01

going back to the swimming pool changing rooms I think they should have family changing rooms that are not linked to ever teh ,ale pr female changing rooms as dd finds it off putting getting changed when there are older boys in there so whilst recognising their mums want to ensure they are safe it does nothing to teach my dd that boys should respect girls judging on the way they behave
back on thread as parents we have aresponsibility to protect our children so whatever it takes sto achieve this should be done

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 09:50:28

Caligua,

You probably have a point that some paedo's will find a fully clothed child (if it projects the right image for them - i.e. for example your barbie wellies suggestion!) more sexually enticing than a nude child.

I am making an assumption that because my own personal sexual thing is adult men, and they do more for me when naked, then the same principle applies to everyone. But yes that might not be the case.

However I am all for being a pragmatist, and I am more comfortable with my children not being naked in public places...and it's simply not an issue for them. They don't feel constrained or limited because most other people are in swimsuits - so it simply doesn't come up as a question for them. Were they to raise it, I would tell them that I am protecting them from the sun.

If I were to let them run around naked on the beach I would feel constantly uncomfortable and perpetually on the alert for cameras etc

Toothache Tue 31-May-05 09:58:35

HMC - Was going to say "Like how you always manage to dress up an insult"... but I won't.

I had a friend who swore blind that she would NEVER let her ds use a public toilet on his own until he was 16! How impractical and unrealistic and neurotic is that???

It is sad that people feel the need to be SO paranoid about their childrens exposure. I loved running about naked as a child.... and like others have said, there comes a time when you're own modesty takes over and the innocence of youth starts to slip away..... Please for goodness sake let your children be children and frolick naked on a beach if they like! Anyway, that's MHO.


And I don't see the difference between boys playing around in their pants, or swimming trunks. That kind of confused me.

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 10:17:03

Toothache,

I don't dress up my insults that well - because they are transparently obvious!

Toothache Tue 31-May-05 10:18:34

HMC - I clearly wasn't directing my original post at anyone in particular so don't really know why you felt the need to jump in with sarcasm. I hadn't actually read any of your posts at that point!

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 10:23:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 10:25:02

only just seen this thread - haven't read it all though

Yes I'd let my boys run naked at the beach if they wanted to - DS1 (4yrs) 'prefers' pants on, and hates running round naked even at home...........

DS2 (18 months) I think will be wanting to visit the nudist beaches when he's older PMSL.

Cam Tue 31-May-05 10:25:18

I'm not offended, as such, by the sight of naked children on the beach but I do feel sorry for them as they may get sunburn on their tender parts or injure them. If the children are in underpants I assume the parents forgot their cossies or simply haven't got any.
Further, I would not let my dd be naked in any area I consider to be public as I don't think its appropriate - agree with ssd and soupdragon etc.
I also think its weird to attack posters on this thread who have expressed the "less liberal" view or whatever point the attackers think they are making.
Changing rooms in gyms, my gym has separate male and female rooms with an age restriction of 6 for opposite sex. But there are also magnificent family rooms for parents taking an opposite gender child swimming. The problem our club has had is couples without kids using the family changing rooms

anchovies Tue 31-May-05 10:26:16

Not sure how the thread has progressed but I would never let ds run around naked on the beach purely for the reason that I am very concerned about sun exposure.

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 10:27:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Toothache Tue 31-May-05 10:28:31

Ahnow the sunburn issue is definitely a reason I would cover them up. Every time I turn my back ds is stripping off! I just think it's funny.... but not if he got his bits burnt!

flashingnose Tue 31-May-05 10:29:59

Don't you think this is another example of how we have let ourselves fall into the trap of believing everything "bad" is preventable? If someone takes a picture of your child and posts it on the web, is it your fault as a parent for putting your child in a position where they could be photographed?

anchovies Tue 31-May-05 10:30:34

DS is much more comfortable in a sun suit rather than me rubbing sunblock on him when he's sandy. Only have to do his hands and face and no worries about too long in the water either.

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 10:31:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cam Tue 31-May-05 10:37:25

The paedophile issue is one thing, but I don't really want any other adults (probably I mean men) looking at my naked daughter - I feel like its my job to protect her from anything I consider to be inappropriate.

Caligula Tue 31-May-05 10:42:53

Cam what d'you mean by "the less liberal view"? I think it's interesting that you use the word "appropriate" - I think the word appropriate is used in the same way now that the word "proper" was used 100 years ago.

Substitute the word "propriety" for "appropriateness" and I think you'll get my drift. I simply don't understand the meaning of the word "appropriate" in talking about children being naked on a beach (surely the most "appropriate" place for them to be naked, apart from in the bath apart from the sun issue.) Whereas the sight of a nine year old in a crop top which says "Sexy" is highly improper, imo, or inappropriate, if you want to use the more modern term.

I guess I'm uncomfortable with the idea that children's nakedness can ever be improper; it smacks to me so much of the over-sexualisation of children which is going on in our society. I actually don't think I'm very liberal on this issue - I'd quite happily ban little whore outfits for eight year olds but the retailers tell us it's what kids/ parents want.

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 10:50:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gothicmama Tue 31-May-05 10:55:09

but times they are achanging free choice for adults etc has led to teh oversexualisation of children - why teach them it is ok to be naked and then put them in little whore outfits it gives confused messages. Better to teach them to respect their bodies and understand that sense of respect adn try to find nicer clothes than hark back to an era past and potential put our kids in damnger either from teh sun or from other adults.
Listenning to children talking where we live fears me with dread they already see girls as sex objects and 2nd class citizens so I think the time of innocnece has gone - it's sad but pretending it still exists will put dd at risk

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 10:56:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Toothache Tue 31-May-05 10:57:37

Gothicmama - lol@ little whore outfits!

emily05 Tue 31-May-05 10:59:18

You could end up really paranoid. Most sexual assaults are commited by friends and family members of a child - so it could drive you mad thinking about who is looking at your child and in what context.

Cam Tue 31-May-05 10:59:26

Caligula, by "less liberal" view, I mean the label that others may give the view that I am holiding (and that has been attacked when a couple of other people have expressed a similar one).

"appropriate" yes I do mean it more or less in the way you are describing. I don't believe it makes me a prude though. I simply believe its up to me to decide what is or isn't appropriate for my child (within the bounds of reason and the law!)I feel that I am making a choice for her that she can't make for herself (although at 8 dd wants to cover up)

As well as my dd2 now (aged 8)I had a dd1 in the 70's when it was de rigeur to allow kids to be naked all over the place (eg.at pop festivals)
I still didn't let my dd1 be naked in public then anymore than I do now with dd2, for exactly the same reasons as now. I have never felt the need to copy other people with regard to these things.

gothicmama Tue 31-May-05 11:00:18

it does to some people and that is were teh debate lies do you go with teh freedom or do you asess the risk of being naked (sun damage etc.) and responsible curtail taht freedom cos of the risk involved

Toothache Tue 31-May-05 11:00:32

I find it quite disturbing that people are associating a child being naked as something sexual!! Where do you draw the line? Can I not even let my 10mth old dd lie and kick her legs on the grass with her nappy off??

Sexual thoughts have never crossed my mind regarding my dd's and ds's bits! And again I find this thread slightly disturbing....

andif Tue 31-May-05 11:02:47

Agree with Caligula.

Our 8 yr old is just beginning to become a bit self conscious about nakedness in public, which I find a sad sign that he is growing up, it's the end of an era! I suppose it had to come eventually, and it does just tend to be in front of his friends. Our 5 yr old is a different matter, and needs no excuse to totally strip off!

For me I find nakedness on the beach a sign of beautiful innocence (sunburn excepted!!) and I find some of the outfits the girls in his class wear are much more offensive - overtly sexual, off the shoulder numbers - yuck!

Cam Tue 31-May-05 11:03:25

I don't believe for one second that I am curtailing my child's freedom by her wearing swimwear on a beach. I consider her to be appropriately dressed.

gothicmama Tue 31-May-05 11:04:27

I think the crux of the matter is that the majority of people don't see children in a sexualised way but some people do
How you perceive the risk of this to yopur child is what is driving this debate adn how you feel about them being naked

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 11:04:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

clary Tue 31-May-05 11:05:14

Don’t really mind what others do but I wouldn’t be keen on mine being naked in public like that. DS2 (just 2) escaped me the other day mid-nappy change (strip-off job) and he was just wearing his socks. He ran about hilariously (it was quite sweet) but we were in a sports hall and knew the other people there iyswim.
It was only sweet because he’s so little (and thought it was so funny).
But I am wary (sadly) of eg dd (nearly 4) stripping off her swimming costume after her swim at the edge of the pool rather than in the changing room. And I wouldn’t let her or ds1 run about naked at the beach or the paddling pool in the park. Actually ds1 wouldn't want to I don't think )he's almost 6). Surely pants are OK if you’re caught without yr swim stuff tho?
Sad isn’t it that because of who might be looking we have to be wary of this. That’s my reason anyway, in private ie our garden I let them go naked in the paddling pool if they want. (with a hat on tho)
lol nemo at puttign suncream "there"!!!
Soupdragon basically I agree with you (not for the first time...)

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 11:06:12

I think the crux of the matter is that the majority of people don't see children in a sexualised way but some people do



But those that do it doesn't bother them whether the child is fully dressed walking to school, or running naked on a beach - either way the child is still 'at risk' so to speak from that person.

Cam Tue 31-May-05 11:07:06

Nor is my preferring my child wearing a swimsuit on the beach in any way part of the sexualisation of children. What a bizarre suggestion. In fact my dd wears a pink and white spotty Boden bikini - you'll all be telling me next that I'm sexualising her more than if she were naked.

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 11:08:58

Toothache,

I felt the need to jump in with sarcasm - as you put it - not because I felt you were specifically targetting me (I'm not that paranoid), but because you said:

"OMG I can't believe how much people psychoanalyse EVERY situation!!"

which is quite dimissive and belittling - imo - towards any / all posters who feel some reluctance to let their children be naked in public places.

I like to see discussions and different opinions on mumsnet as much as the next person, but it's not what you say, it is how you say it....for instance, I've found nothing that Caligua has said to be inflammatory, although she and I seem to have different opinions on this.

Can we leave it there, I find these little exchanges quite tiring and I'm not as young as I used to be!

clary Tue 31-May-05 11:09:05

Agree with caligula about tarty girls’ clothes too. We don't do those in our house, I search and search for plain girls' T-shirts (that's why I end up in the boden sale lol).
And also agree with other posters who want their kids to be free as a bird. I do too, hence finding little wobbly-bummed ds2 so cute.

andif Tue 31-May-05 11:10:41

Exactly Gwenick - nakedness is not the issue. Perverts watch kids playgrounds etc just to see kids AT ALL. As long as they are being properly supervised, there is no more danger to them naked than clothed!

webmum Tue 31-May-05 11:15:25

Completely agree with Caligula,
r
I'm much more offended, actually saddened, when I see 6yr olds, wearing high heels, 'spice girls' tops, makeup then a naked 6yrold on a beach!!!

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 11:20:02

I am tempted to google on this subject to try and find out where paedo's garner their material for publishing on dodgy sites on the internet - i.e. what proportion is collected by them via subversive use of a camcorder / mobile phone images (of nude children in public places and the like) because this thread is full of conjecture (from both camps).

But I am not sure what to put in my search engine to get the right sort of info (obviously don't want to pull up any actual porn sites - just want some of the academic and other literature on this subject)

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 11:21:57

I find 'sexy adult' clothing, cosmetics etc on children repulsive too, and like my children to be dressed like children.

and to clarify, I don't find naked children in public places at all offensive. I just don't want my children being oggled by all and sundry. Wierd that, eh?

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 11:24:03

I'm enjoying this discussion, but a straw poll in my office with colleagues is giving a very different bias than the majority view on here - which is interesting...(perhaps my colleagues are all too scared to disagree with me - which of course doesn't apply to fiesty mumsnetters)

morocco Tue 31-May-05 11:43:51

this is a very thought provoking thread and I am amazed (honestly, not sarcastically) at how much people have changed their behaviour because of their beliefs about how paedophiles think.
As a general comment, certainly not aimed at anyone in particular on this thread, I find it extremely sad that British society has sexualised children to such an extent that prepubescent bodies are seen as sexual objects. It reminds me of the way some societies make their female children cover up completely in case some passing male should see a bit of flesh. Or the 'she waas asking for it' comments by judges to rape victims in mini skirts.
Of course, I don't mean at all that as some weird statement about this, all children should have to walk round buck naked all day either - up to you as parents. My kids would be covered up usually becaue it's bloody freezing otherwise. I just find it very very sad that we (British society) are letting this fear change our behaviour
Incidentally, someone was talking about feeling more relaxed walking alone abroad, I also find this but usually it is because I can't or don't read the local papers and so am isolated from all the horror stories going around. I think our fear of paedophiles is so great in the UK because the papers are constantly going on about it.

morocco Tue 31-May-05 11:45:43

handlemecarefully - I have images of you frantically trying to close dodgy websites

slartibardfast Tue 31-May-05 11:46:09

hmc - try the Google Directory - allows search of sites about pornography rather than weeding out the porn sites themselves. This is about the directory. From which this is an academic article on the subject, which includes this which I agree with: "Childporno is not the same as pictures of nude children"

Also an interesting definition: 'The American Ministry of Justice employs five criteria to decide whether an image can be considered to be pornographic: "They must focus on the genital area, show unnatural poses, depict children as sex objects, imply that the children are willing to engage in sex, and have a suggestive setting."'

We ought to be doing proper work, not mn, you know :-)

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 11:55:36

Thanks slarti,

I am going to have a read through of that article.

Btw I have just used the NSPCC enquiry service to ask the experts what is there general advice on this matter (i.e. child nudity in public places and actual / perceived risks) - I should get a response within 5 working days according to their website and will publish the response on here when I get it.

Am getting ready to eat my own hat!

stitch Tue 31-May-05 13:20:59

i would never by choice allow my 8 yr old go to the mens changing rooms on his own. neither do i think it particularly healthy for him to go to the womans changing room where there are naked women .
but then we are lucky because our gym has two separat family changing rooms.

Bugsy2 Tue 31-May-05 14:50:22

I wonder if there was such a thing as paedophilia when we all wore next to nothing as our ancestors walked in the Sahara?
This is such a sad thread. People talking about "all & sundry oggling" at their toddlers or young children.
I accept that there is a very tiny percentage of bad people out there but I am not going to let them spoil my children's freedom to play starkers on a sandy beach. As long as I am there to supervise and ensure that they are not going to burn, drown or be at risk from any stranger then they are free to be nude or not as they so wish to be.

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 14:52:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

oliveoil Tue 31-May-05 14:54:22

Oh for the days when I was oggled on the beach, they look away now.

Sorry. Am lowering the tone.

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 14:55:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 14:55:26

I wonder if there was such a thing as paedophilia when we all wore next to nothing as our ancestors walked in the Sahara?


Sadly there probably was. Infact I've read in some places (various random ones that I probably couldn't find - especially as some were 'offline') that actually incidents of child abuse/abduction/murder etc etc are no higher now than they were many years ago (infact possibly lower as the awareness of it has risen). The only difference is that because of modern media we hear and see about it more often therefore making us 'think' it occurs more often, and that the world is much more dangerous place.

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 14:56:32

PMSL @ oliveoil - just wrote that last really serious post, submitted in then saw you comments - I know the feeling - infact I don't think I've ever been oggled on the beach (or anywhere else for that matter )

beansmum Tue 31-May-05 14:57:50

I wouldn't let my ds run around naked, but purely because of the risks associated with sun exposure. I had a small melanoma removed from my back when I was younger and would feel terrible if it happened to ds. If he was mad enough to want to be naked when there was no sun, then fine, what harm is he going to come to with me there?

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 15:00:22

If he was mad enough to want to be naked when there was no sun,


PLease please don't assume that because there's no sun it's not dangerous - I foolishly did this while on holiday once - plastered myself from head to toe in suncream EVERYDAY.........except for the drizzling and overcast one, still 'warm' and 'muggy' but I 'assumed' (foolishly) there was no real risk...............woke up the following morning with my entire face and arms blistered and peeling and VERY painful.

beansmum Tue 31-May-05 15:01:22

I meant like at night time, or under a tree. but yeah, I've been burnt on overcast days too.

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 15:02:22

sorry didn't mean to sound so patronising and pigheaded - just brings back horrible memories, took weeks for my face to fully heal

Prettybird Tue 31-May-05 15:20:09

I'm with Caligula, Bugsy 2 et al. If ds wants to run about naked, then I'm all for it. I think it was morningpaper who said that even if someone were photographing him, then waht difference does it make to him? I think we are far more at risk of damaging our children if we give in to the fear and start constraining what they do.

I love the fact that ds (4.5) is so unselfconscious - long may that last. But before I get jumped on, we are already teaching him hwat is "appropriate" - for example, playing with his willy in front of guests is not encouraged! .

As Gwenick says, the stats are that the risk hasn't actually changed - it's just our preception of it that has. The risk of abuse - both physical and sexual - is also, sadly, still far greater inside the home, by close relatives or people known to the family. But we can't live our lives ruled by fear - as someone else said, "Who's won then?"

Prettybird Tue 31-May-05 15:23:36

Oh - and when we are on holiday, I like to put the special "once a day" strong sun tan lotion (both UVA and UVB protection) on all over a naked wee boy, so that if he does choose to divest himself of any clothing, I know he is protected.

loulabelle222 Tue 31-May-05 15:23:52

its so sad that we have to watch who look at out kids. I look back at pics of me and my sisters naked on beach and things like that at about 2. Back then nobody worried who was looking.. it was all about freedom! I wouldn't let ds (13m) run around naked.. dh wouldn't let him. He was disgusted on holiday that children were running around naked by the pool.

beansmum Tue 31-May-05 15:30:41

loulabelle, that's so sad! how can you be disgusted by a naked child? my ds is nearly 1 (bday tomorrow!) and it's horrible to think that people would be shocked by him naked, he's still a baby.

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 15:33:01

have to confess I enjoy watching my boys run around naked (not that they do it very often)

They look just like my DH in their build and (sounds terrible saying it so please don't take it the wrong way!) both got bum's like their daddy

Bugsy2 Tue 31-May-05 15:34:39

oh loulabelle, that is so sad about your dh. Little nudey children are nothing to be disgusted by - they are a sweet reminder of what we all once were.

beansmum Tue 31-May-05 15:36:17

I know what you mean gwenick! ds is gorgeous with his baby skin and little fat tummy, and he's so happy when he's allowed to crawl around with no nappy on, makes me smile just thinking about it!

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 16:11:17

I still don't get why people think it is such a big constraint and curtailment of freedom to put them in a swim wear?

I do find it a little bit silly (sorry) that some of you are suggesting that those of us who don't want our children naked in public are giving into fear and really compromising our kids childhood. It's not really such a big thing in the scale of things is it, and I can't see my kids ending up in counselling over it....

(although sadly I probably will have unwittingly screwed them up over other unrelated things as most parents do to some extent - like my cleaning obession for instance...)

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 16:13:29

and I can't see my kids ending up in counselling over it....



Nah, they're probably just go naked skinny dipping at midnight in their teens insteads

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 16:13:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 16:15:05

that was a bit rude beetroot - but there has been a tendancy to rudeness on this thread in general - sigh

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 16:16:19

can anyone give me a link for ordering burkhas on line because I am clearly such a fucked up parent I need to buy two - one for a toddler aged 2.10, the other for a 13 month old

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 16:16:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 16:16:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 16:17:36

double sigh

fastasleep Tue 31-May-05 16:17:50

Oh come on don't fight about whether your kids can go naked or not... I mean FGS how ridiculous!

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 16:18:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fastasleep Tue 31-May-05 16:19:30

I didn't find it particularly rude but that's just me! Just don't get all heated and silly now girls!

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 16:19:33

I'm not fighting - just standing my ground. Am I not allowed to do that?

fastasleep Tue 31-May-05 16:20:22

ARGH!

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 16:20:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 16:20:53

let me explain - the analogy that not wanting your child nude somehow has equivalency to being a muslim in purdah. That's rude. But if it wasn't the intention to be rude - then okay, lets drop it.

Blossomhill Tue 31-May-05 16:21:37

Look we all have our own opinions and that's life. Why can't we all agree to disagree. There are always those on here that like to push there views on everyone else.
We all parent to the best of our abilites and do what we feel is right. I for one will not let my kids run around naked and I am entitled to do that. It will not leave my children scarred or screwed up. I think around the age of 5/6 most children prefer to keep covered up anyway. I really don't think children of that age should be running around without clothes on. Even if they just wear bikini bottoms.

fastasleep Tue 31-May-05 16:22:31

She was saying she didn't give a sh*t whether your child or anyone elses was naked or not but that she and her family enjoyed the feeling of nakedness... I sort of agree I mean if Theo decides he wants to go naked because he likes it then I'll just have to swallow my pride and put suncream on his willy!! Lol!t

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 16:22:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Prettybird Tue 31-May-05 16:23:08

I suppose the difference is that I don't feel the need to put ds into a swimming cozzie if he doesn't want to wear one - whether in the back garden or on a beach.

To me, it is part of a bigger issue about all the other freedoms we are denying our children becasue of our perception of danger. Things like allowing children to explore open spaces on thier own, to go to the shops in their own, to go off to parks/countryside with their friends, to walk ot school on their own, rather than be ferried around and supervised all the time.

Although it is not a well put together book, I do agree with the majority of sentiments in "Paranoid Parenting". (I just think I - and others here on Mumsnet - could have argued the points better).

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 16:24:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 16:25:00

Okay beetroot - forgotten about.

For the record - I don't mind other people's kids being naked in public - just prefer to have mine clothed in public. See it as a personal choice issue - so we can probably agree on that!

Blossomhill Tue 31-May-05 16:25:29

Beetroot - I did say most children prefer, not all!!!!!!

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 16:25:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 16:26:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fastasleep Tue 31-May-05 16:26:29

Yay we mainly all agree it's just a personal preferrence like pretty much everything else!

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 16:28:18

Yes of course! am I (for possibly just a smidgeon over reacting an awful lot perhaps maybe) ?

fastasleep Tue 31-May-05 16:29:37

That's the first time I've told people not to fight and they actually have not faught lol

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 16:29:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 16:30:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fastasleep Tue 31-May-05 16:31:48

I know me coming along and saying SHUURRRUUUP makes no difference...was just saying... happy coincidence lol

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 17:56:42

Blooimg 'eck - go off and have a quick snooze while dinner's finishing off and come back and find it's all be happening when I was away!!! and I wasn't part of it

****KICKS AND STAMPS FEET IN A TRANTRUM*****




Like it's been said it's parental choice whether they let their kids run starkers on the beach (or anywhere else for that matter)

We'll all be here complaing in 10-15 yrs time complaining that our DS/DD has been caught streaking somewhere LOL

stitch Tue 31-May-05 18:03:48

a one year old running round naked is very different to a 7 year old.
but this topic has gone on for soooo long. its getting boring now

ssd Tue 31-May-05 18:12:28

Couldn't agree more stitch.

Wish I'd never started it .........

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 18:12:44

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 18:13:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cam Tue 31-May-05 18:28:41

I still think its weird that people who let their kids go nude think people who put cozzies on their kids are weird. FGS (and I never swear on mumsnet) it is normal to wear swimwear on a beach, at a pool, etc.

Cam Tue 31-May-05 18:29:27

and appropriate (as in appropriate clothing for the circumstances)

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 18:31:20

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lucy5 Tue 31-May-05 18:33:53

I dont think its people putting cozzies on their kids that people are finding weird, it's some of the reasoning, based on fear that some people are finding hard to understand. At the end of the day we all do what we think is best for our kids and that is the most important thing.

Caligula Tue 31-May-05 19:03:21

Yep, I don't think it's wierd at all to put a cozzie on a kid - but I do object to being told it's appropriate, because the implication is that children being naked is inappropriate. (Although I don't suppose that's the implication the poster meant.) I think for pre-pubescent children, being naked or being clothed on a beach is equally appropriate - unless they're fair-skinned and aren't wearing sun-tan protection! It is totally down to personal preference, which is why I think I object to the A word!

natts Tue 31-May-05 19:11:18

no i don't let my children, play naked at the beach. i think it's perfectly natural and i was a naked kid on a beach once myself but things have changed and i hate the thought of some perv secretly getting off on my children ,so definatly no. kids naked in the back garden in and out of paddling pool, not over looked, no problem. the other thing that worries me about kids on beaches is the digital camara and zoom lenses,they could be on the net and in the hands of, well who knows. i know that 99.9% of people on the beach are other mums and dads, but i wouldn't take that risk.

Cam Tue 31-May-05 21:12:59

I wouldn't want to do anything in public that makes other people feel uncomfortable, therefore it is inappropriate (in my view).

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 21:15:44

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cam Tue 31-May-05 21:19:20

But it does, as has been said here, why is that so hard to understand?

beetroot Tue 31-May-05 21:23:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

morocco Tue 31-May-05 21:30:31

sigh
I can't help myself - I just have to post one more thing as I think I made the 'muslim in purdah' comment (not using those words)
to explain: it reminded me of this issue(not saying it is the same thing, it just reminded me) because covering children up in headscarf, burkha etc is not a religious choice because the koran doesn't say that female children should be covered up but I have always presumed that people make that cultural choice since they also make the association female flesh (of any age) = temptation to male adult onlooker. So I saw a connection with parent covers up child because child's naked flesh = temptation to paedophile onlooker. Just as many judges have said 'lots of long legs on show in miniskirt' = temptation to weirdo rapist. The second reason I saw a connection is because I think all those arguments are flawed.
didn't mean to be rude to anyone and I'm sure lots of people will post that I am totally wrong about cultural reasoning behind burkha wearing prepubescents - am entirely open to being corrected on this issue.
to clarify somewhat further, I am not comparing parents who put swimsuits on their children to anyone else at all. It is quite obviously the norm in our society. I was interested in the reasons some people gave for not letting their kids go naked. I was trying to think beyond the individuals making the choices to the reasoning beyond it. Obviously not very well, but then I don't pretend to be the world's greatest debater either.
sincerely hoping not to offend people, but not entirely sure I have achieved my aim

sansouci Tue 31-May-05 21:32:22

feel "better" (ie more comfortable) when dd & ds have their privates covered. must be my prudish upbringing. but love to see dd (almost 5) in just a bikini bottom. wish I could wander around topless... sigh!

Cam Tue 31-May-05 21:34:34

Can't correlate the wearing of swimwear with making children ashamed of their bodies at all. My dd has always worn swimwear at beach or pool, there has never been an issue. For her, it is normal.

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 21:37:21

Don't worry about it Morocco - have taken a chill pill now.

But the muslim in purdah thing (which did annoy me originally, hence when it sort of came up again I let rip when poor Beety mentioned burkhas)is a little inflammatory - although I am sure you didn't mean it that way.

I equate purda and burkhas - from the standpoint of my western feminist leanings - as a form of oppression of women...so the analogy when compared to children covered up with a swimsuit didn't sit well with me; because I don't think that I am oppressing my children iyswim. Hence all the bluster and indignation....which is long gone now.

And I am loving everybody again (could be to do with it being after the kids' bed time so wine has come out and is being imbibed in great quantities)

morocco Tue 31-May-05 21:39:12

ah but cam - I can definitely correlate wearing of swimwear to making adult mother of two with flabby tummy feeling ashamed of her body (although sadly, not all seem to share my self consiousness )

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 21:39:32

And feel that I should add a postscript - that I am definitely not anti muslim!

(phew, it's hard work fathoming out what might and might not offend isn't it?)

Hulababy Tue 31-May-05 21:40:28

I have always put DD in a swim nappy/swimsuit when playing on the beach or similar public place. When tiny it was more so that the nappy caught any accidents. Also because I wanted to protect her baby fair skin from too much sun exposure. DD has always had proper UV suits to help with this. Now she gets a choice - she is 3yo - and she always chooses to wear a swim suit - either her UV suit if hot and/or sunny, or a swimsuit if not so bad. She loves her swimsuits - they are pretty and chosen by her.

At home DD is often running about with no clothes on. Always has since being tiny. She has no hang ups about this, desite covering up in public.

gossifer Tue 31-May-05 21:42:47

i'm really interested in why people think things have changed, there are no more paedophiles out there than there used to be - the government & society have just created a culture of fear

gossifer Tue 31-May-05 21:42:48

i'm really interested in why people think things have changed, there are no more paedophiles out there than there used to be - the government & society have just created a culture of fear

morocco Tue 31-May-05 21:44:10

{grin} hmc - glad we are friends again - stupid of me to even start down that road anyway, it's so hard to say things how you mean them on the net
I'm on my second huge baileys - hurrah for early nights for kids.

Cam Tue 31-May-05 21:46:11

When I used to live in Brighton my nearest beach was the nudist beach (just below Sussex Square
where Cate Blanchett lives now). Believe me I 've seen everything.

handlemecarefully Tue 31-May-05 21:48:48

Morocco,

Of course we are friends again

Hulababy Tue 31-May-05 21:52:12

Not really had chance to read all this through, but those who allow their children to play naked outside in the sun - what about burning and sun exposure? That is what concerns me most, and I don't fancy having to cover DD everywhere with suncrea, - which in itself is not exactly the most comofrtable thing to have slathered all over you anyway.

morocco Tue 31-May-05 22:07:05

I know what you mean hulababy and am normally pretty uptight about sun exposure too although I tend to the view that a short period of time exposed is good for vit d and not a big risk of skin cancer
guess that also depends where you live though - if I was in NZ I'd be pretty paranoid about it to be sure
you'd be lucky to get 10 minutes warm enough to want to strip to the altogether in Blighty though

Caligula Tue 31-May-05 22:58:28

Sorry, I have to nag away like with a scar. I simply don't think it's valid to say that something which might make someone else uncomfortable is inappropriate. Some people are very uncomfortable about the sight of two adults kissing in public. Should it never be done then?Some people are uncomfortable about the sight of babies with dummies. Should babies therefore never be given dummies? Some people (like me) are uncomfortable about the sight of a child in a pink crop top with the word "sexy" written on it and a navel showing. Should that be banned then?

How on earth are we all supposed to know what will make a complete stranger, who we will never see again, uncomfortable? And why on earth should we adapt our (reasonable? normal? harmless?) behaviour to the hang-ups/ prejudices/ preferences of that person?

LGJ Tue 31-May-05 23:00:59

Some people (like me) are uncomfortable about the sight of a child in a pink crop top with the word "sexy" written on it and a navel showing. Should that be banned then?



YES PLEASE

Janh Tue 31-May-05 23:06:16

Coming in very late to this but, Caligula, you said "How on earth are we all supposed to know what will make a complete stranger, who we will never see again, uncomfortable?"

I didn't think "making complete strangers uncomfortable" was the problem; I thought it was exposing our small children to the very strangers who would not be uncomfortable, but would be over-interested? They are out there, sad but true.

It's awful that we should need to think about it like that, but we do.

tiffini Tue 31-May-05 23:06:34

Children need to be taught to be comfortable with thier bodies, but at the same time they need to be taught to have some dignity.

For me i would not have a problem with a naked child on the beach unless they were older than the toddler age.

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 23:08:40

but I thought we'd already established that the risk to our children is no greater now than it was when we are children.

And most child pornography comes via child abuse, which 'generally' comes from within the family/families circle of friends.

A paedophile would be just as interested in your fully clothed child going to school as they would in a naked one running round the beach......

Janh Tue 31-May-05 23:10:24

But Gwenick, it is much easier now for a child pornographer to take graphic pictures, with either camera or mobile phone, than it was 30 years ago.

Janh Tue 31-May-05 23:11:06

No need to get the pics developed at a shop now....

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 23:11:50

but the risk to the 'child' is still exactly the same (in fact probably less as the awareness from the public is much higher now).

Someone taking photographs of your child will be JUST as interested in them running round in their little swimming costume/trunks/bikini as they would running round naked.

krist Tue 31-May-05 23:12:06

My five year old just wouldnt got to the shy stay which is fine. However couldnt keep clothes on my two year old at the beach, but sand in a nappie or swimming nappie must hurt so i see his point of view and whats the harm sitting in the sand making sand castles if anyone tried to take a picture of him well im sure daddy would have sent the camera and person flying into the sea lol

Janh Tue 31-May-05 23:12:15

You think?

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 23:14:02

No need to get the pics developed at a shop now....


30yrs ago I doubt very much whether people would have batted an eyelid at a picture of a naked child being developed in the shop, unless there was something OBVIOUSLY malicious about the photo. Got plenty of photo's of me as a child, developed at shops, completely naked,

Janh Tue 31-May-05 23:14:49

Discreet camera, telephoto lens, download to internet, circulate - they just could not do that so easily a few years ago. OK serious porn can't be done eg on a beach, but you know what I mean - would you want anonymous men getting off on a snap of your child naked on a beach?

tiffini Tue 31-May-05 23:16:49

gwenick

I agree, a paedophile will take an interest in a child that seems an easy target, regardless of how that child looks or what they are wearing.

This is only what seems obvious to me, i dont know, nor do i wish to know what goes on in the sick mind of a paedophile.

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 23:18:14

telephoto lens,



Errrr they've been around a VERY long time, my dad was using his telephoto lens a more than 30yrs ago...


Paedophiles don't ONLY want pictures of naked children to them your child in a swimming costume/trunks (or even school uniform) is JUST as 'attractive' to them as naked.....

And in amongst the photos my parents took of me naked on beaches I'm sure there's pictures of children we didn't know (also naked) on them too...

wordsmith Tue 31-May-05 23:21:25

From the POV of morality/sexuality, I would be completely happy to let my kids play naked on the beach until whatever age they felt more comfortable covered up (probably about 7 or 8 I imagine). My only concern would be sun protection.

Lets' face it, there could be weirdos hanging around anywhere. But there probably aren't. A friend of mine stopped taking her child to our lovely park "because of the paedophiles" - there were no reports of any paedophiles at all! So her child was denied the opportunity to meet up with several other little friends on a regular basis, and gradually these friendships withered on the vine.

If we take this argument to its logical conclusion we would never leave the house for fear of paedophiles. I could cry when I think of my carefree childhood in the 60's and 70's in comparison with the restrained and coralled existence of many of today's kids. Where is the documented evidence that our kids are in any more dange these days than then?

Let them be as naked as they wish for as long as they like. There is nothing as liberating or enjoyable than the feel of the sun against your body. I wish I could be brave enough to strip of a bit more myself!

QueenEagle Tue 31-May-05 23:21:46

I would take my kids to a naturist beach with no qualms. Except I hate the sand.

We are much happier going to our caravan which is in a naturist place and we all wander round naked to our hearts content.

Janh Tue 31-May-05 23:22:36

30 years ago the equivalent telephoto lenses were about 2' long, hardly subtle, and the images taken would have to be laboriously developed and circulated by post, if at all.

Never mind. Obviously wasting my time. Dream on, Gwenick.

wordsmith Tue 31-May-05 23:24:48

QE I have often been tempted to try a naturist holiday. DH would run a mile though. How do you find it?

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 23:26:37

Jan - trust me the distances that my father could stand and use his telephoto lense was WELL out 'easy spotting' range from, say a beach, he could easily have sat in the dunes (actually he was frequently found sat in the dunes and other 'odd' places LOL) taking pictures of things from quite a distance - and his lenses (which he only sold last year) were NOT 2' long!!!


Please don't patronise me. I know plenty about photography and what 'used' to be used and what is used 'now'. And we all have access to places that can confirm that the instances of child abuse (which is most often where the paedophile activity comes from) always has, and still does, come mostly from people our children know/trust or family

sykes Tue 31-May-05 23:33:37

This is JUST an observation, but what are peopeles' thoughts about Ken Livingstone's announcement re parks in London re camera phones etc and being cautious about what you do/don't dress your children in?

krist Tue 31-May-05 23:33:57

Kids expecially little girls run around in next to nothing in the summer anyway kids playing at the beach isnt the problem being able to buy fake playboy skirts and tops for a two year old is I know if I had a daughter I wouldnt dress her up like a little tart in plastic knee high boots I have seen then in cheep shops and kids wearing them surely that is worse, that a baby or young child playing

wordsmith Tue 31-May-05 23:35:39

Gwenick it's nice to see the voice of common sense not being drowned out by the squeaks of paranoia.

I am as disgusted by paedophilia as the next mother, but it is very very rare. Stop reading the Sun and the News of the World and look at the real world. I refuse to let my or my kids' life be dictated by 0.0001% of the population.

Janh Tue 31-May-05 23:38:59

Hadn't heard about it before, sykes - just did a search on the Guardian and found this - I think it's sad and sick but not surprising ( a neighbour with 2 teenage kids of his own was jailed this year for circulating child porn, after trying to blame his own kids and their friends. These are nasty, devious, creepy people.)

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 23:39:03

HEre's an interesting quote

"The early 1970's marked the heyday of commercial production of child pornography in the Western world. Denmark, Holland, and, to a lesser extent, Sweden, were the main centres of production in Europe. Most of the children depicted were Caucasian. Many who were featured in European child pornography magazines were photographed in the United States and the photos were published in magazines assembled abroad."

taken from here

So that was PRE computers as we know it (funnily enough 30yrs ago)

The Protection of Children Act was brought in in 1978. And even THEN covered 'indecent' pictures.

essbee Tue 31-May-05 23:39:30

Message withdrawn

Janh Tue 31-May-05 23:40:39

<<squeaking paranoia>>

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 23:42:20

here is the West Midland Police Paedophile Unit page, makes interesting, if a little harrowing, reading.

Janh Tue 31-May-05 23:42:46

"The early 1970s marked the heyday"???

It has declined since then, presumably.

I don't think so.

QueenEagle Tue 31-May-05 23:45:48

wordsmith - do it! We became interested about 3 years ago. Booked a villa which had a secluded garden with pool and spent the entire 2 weeks naked. Visited several naturist beaches, like I said the only thing I don't like is the sand getting into everthing. When we came back, we looked into joining a naturist club, visited one, loved it and now have a caravan site which we visit almost every weekend. It's a very family friendly place, loads of activities go on and on a hot sunny day when we are lazing round the pool, we could be anywhere in the world!

Paedophiles can be anywhere. A point to remember is this - the naked body is not sexy, wearing a skimpy bikini IS.

My older 3 kids are 13, 11 and 9 and all are quite comfortable being naked weather permitting. Since being naturist I have had a much more positive body image - before I was worried about stretchmarks and wobbly bits but now I am quite happy to get my kit off. I do however, believe there is a time and a place for it.

sykes Tue 31-May-05 23:46:14

I do have my girls in swimsuits - the sun protection thing worries me more than anything. I hate the tarty culture re little girls in inappropriate clothes - the whole scenario is beyond comprehension, but you just don't buy the clothes.

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 23:47:02

Yes the heyday when you could go into a shop and buy a child porn magazine off the top shelf!!

It may not have 'declined' but it's certainly no HIGHER than it was back then (just look in the news and see how many teachers/priests/men are being charged NOW for sexual offences against children back in the 70/80's).

The photos which are generaly distributed by paedophiles will be the ones which they have taken of the child abuse, not of joe and josephine bloggs DS's and DD's running naked on the beach!



And I notice you've made no more comment about Telephoto lenses???

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 23:50:23

"The late 1970's and early 80's brought increased governmental regulation, first in the United States and later in Europe. As a result, commercial distribution is no longer a major means of circulating such material. The majority of child pornography disseminated internationally is, in fact, exchanged between paedophiles and child molesters without any commercial motive."

Taken from the same website the 'heyday' quote was from (next paragraph actually)

Back in the 1970's there was obviously a pretty big MARKET for it, people would actually PAY to get hold of the stuff, the fact that it's now no longer (thank god) commercial must surely have reduced 'general' circulation????

Imagine being able to walk into your local newsagents and see child pornography magazines on the top shelf, available for ANYONE (whether they have internet connection or not!) to buy!!

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 23:53:20

More food for thought, based on America but quite possibly true for here too

"Letter writing by paedophiles, extensive in the past, is now being replaced by much more rapidly transmitted computer conversations. Despite increasing use of computers by paedophiles, according to the U.S. Postal Service, pornographers still rely heavily on the mails to exchange video tapes and computer diskettes"

Janh Tue 31-May-05 23:56:08

Well obviously I can't comment specifically on telephoto lenses between 1975 and now, but did you read the Guardian link?

<<A crackdown on mobile phone and digital camera paedophiles was announced by Scotland Yard yesterday.
The Met will use new state of the art technology, including £100,000 worth of mobile forensic kits, and undercover operations to combat fears that children are being secretly photographed in parks and open spaces.
It has emerged that 12 people are now awaiting trial following incidents in London last summer, when the phenomenon first came to the attention of the authorities.>>

12 awaiting trial, from before there was a "crackdown". There may well be many more serious abuse images circulated, but it doesn't mean you don't need to worry about "mild" images from pervy blokes lurking in the background with their phones and digital cameras.

wordsmith Tue 31-May-05 23:58:14

QE - sounds great. But no way would my DH even consider it. Do you think men are out off by the possibility of - ahem - inadvertent stiffies? My naked body certainly isn't sexy.

Anyway back to the issue in hand. I agree with several posters who have made the point about tarty clothes for little girls - It amazes me how a lot of parents imagine paedophiles crawling out of the woodwork in any situation yet allow children to go around wearing boob tubes and fcuk logos. Is it any wonder that kids grow up confused? They aren't allowed to be naked as nature intended but from an indecently eary age are encouraged to reveal just enough flesh to suggest burgeoning sexual awareness. It's just sick. Makes me glad I have boys not girls.

wordsmith Tue 31-May-05 23:59:39

put off I mean

Gwenick Tue 31-May-05 23:59:56

Yes I read it - more media scare mongering if you ask me.

Go and look through your family album/holiday photos............then come back and tell me how many pictures you have in YOUR posession that ALSO include other children in the background?? Did you ask for their permission to take those photographs?

Are they going to arrest everyone who's got photo's of other people's children skimpily dressed (not hard to miss these days).

As for you comment about photolenses

"30 years ago the equivalent telephoto lenses were about 2' long, hardly subtle, and the images taken would have to be laboriously developed and circulated by post, if at all.

Never mind. Obviously wasting my time. Dream on, Gwenick."

One minute you're telling me that 30yrs ago 'equivalent' lenses were 2' long - and tell me your wasting your time..........then the next you can't possibly be telling me about them????

Janh Wed 01-Jun-05 00:01:03

Well my dad never lurked in the dunes with his

Gwenick Wed 01-Jun-05 00:03:47

PMSL - I know you don't want to know the other places he lurked with it.................


He also used to develop most of his own photo's (only my mum's got sent of for processing at the labs) and used our MASSIVE bathroom..........meaning every weekend (and during the week to when he was working nights) we'd have to use the next door neighbours toilet!!!!

Janh Wed 01-Jun-05 00:05:25

I have a 25-yr-old Canon SLR with a fixed 100mm lens, and a nearly new Minolta compact 35mm with a 150mm zoom lens, and I know which one people would notice and which one they wouldn't, and AFAIK digital cameras are even more subtle than compact ones.

wordsmith Wed 01-Jun-05 00:05:41

OK gwenick, you've got me worried now. What did your dad take pics of?

krist Wed 01-Jun-05 00:08:37

I'm also glad ive got boys t-shirts and shorts to the knee sun tan lotion nothing indecent and theres less chance of them getting sun burnt but yes I would let them play naked at the beach on holiday. And say last year on holiday someone did get my little lad in the back of there picture bum flashing the lot I'm never going to know so why worry, there most probebly normal everyday people with kids thenselves I'm not going to worry about somthing that will more than likly never happen, kids need to be kids. I'm more worried about sunbathing parents that arnt watching there children at least I always know where mine are and there not going to get washed out into the sea, I'm sure lost children due to irresponsible parents is much more common than any weirdo taking pics

Gwenick Wed 01-Jun-05 00:08:49

wordsmith - anything and everything (although has never like taking 'people' pictures ie portrates and stuff).

He recently 'indexed' his slide collection on the computer so he 'knew what he had'.............and had nearly 3,000 slides.

Not sure on the number of photo's but I 'believe' it's close to 10,000 - from all over the world.

The ones in the dunes were mainly of the sea and flowers (he's got hundreds of flower photos).

Janh Wed 01-Jun-05 00:08:58

Gwenick, nearly 20 years ago I sent to a friend a photo of my DDs (aged 5 and 2) inside a sleeping bag with no visible clothes, and she said then that I should be careful who I sent an image like that to.

I hate the whole prudery thing, and I hate that small children can't be innocently naked, but it has to be faced that there are very dodgy people out there.

Gwenick Wed 01-Jun-05 00:10:30

and she said then that I should be careful who I sent an image like that to.



Well there you go then - proves my point that child pornography was as much as a problem 'pre computers' as it is now

wordsmith Wed 01-Jun-05 00:14:50

Jan H, there are dodgy people out there. And planes fly into buildings. And tsunamis hit coastal regions killing thousands of people. And earthquakes reduce villages in Turkey to rubble. But have you stopped going on planes of going up tall buildings, swimming in the sea or taking holidays? I doubt it. And talking of a danger to our kids - I hope you don't drive a car or let your kids go anywhere near a road, because more kids are killed or injured by cars than anything else.

Janh Wed 01-Jun-05 00:16:35

<<And planes fly into buildings. And tsunamis hit coastal regions killing thousands of people. And earthquakes reduce villages in Turkey to rubble.>>

How often do those happen?

Gwenick Wed 01-Jun-05 00:18:01

not often - but the numbers of people affected is VERY high (10's and 100's of thousands)

wordsmith Wed 01-Jun-05 00:22:12

Actually earthquakes happen quite a lot! And as for car crashes....

krist Wed 01-Jun-05 00:23:36

child falls down stairs do you carry them from then on, falls off climbing frame breaks arm do you ban them? falls off bike big cut on head even everyday things kids do pose dangers you cant wrap them up in cotton wool kids have broken necks on trampolines and bouncy castles you cant stop everything but as long as no one is touching or hurting my children in anyway im doing my job as there mum

sykes Wed 01-Jun-05 00:29:00

It's whatever you're happy with.

wordsmith Wed 01-Jun-05 00:29:12

Actually this is getting off the point. Child sex abuse is a very serious and tragic issue. And as Gwenick pointed out the victims of paedophiles tend to be known to them or 'groomed' by them, and images taken of them very deliberately and pointedly in poses or acts which are staged by the paedophile. The chance of your child, playing naked on the beach, being harmed by a paedophile while you are there watching out for him or her is so infinitely miniscule as to be be statistically irrelevant. And if some dirty old man does get a cheap thrill from watching them, well I'm sure you as a parent would be able to spot him. I haven't read or heard about any strage men lurking in the sand dunes (well not until Gwenick mentioned her dad). But the likelihood of children being affected by not being able to play freely and enjoy their childhood as you are I did are many many times greater.

Have just realised the time. Must go to bed!

krist Wed 01-Jun-05 00:32:58

no its common sense playing on the beach properly supervised isnt a threat to any child theres more chance of them getting glass in there little feet than attackted in anyway

Gwenick Wed 01-Jun-05 00:38:39

well not until Gwenick mentioned her dad)


aww my poor dad - we're always poking fun at him -

No not naked on a public beach, would you take your kids for a walk up a High Street naked? No, so what's the difference with a beach? Home and in public is different, we are trying to teach our kids to be safe around strangers.

Mud Wed 01-Jun-05 08:55:36

what a totally dumb analogy that is

wordsmith Wed 01-Jun-05 08:55:38

That's the whole point SHR - they are safe, because they're with you! And the difference with the beach is sun, sand and sea, therefore it is appropriate to strip off and enjoy! It is not appropriate on the high street! Let's have some common sense fgs!!

handlemecarefully Wed 01-Jun-05 09:03:41

Gwenick,

I think you've misread the child porn issue - as I understand it, it is because of the move away from commercially produced child porn in the 70's to a cottage industry of porn that it has proliferated:

"From the late 1970's to the late 1990's the production and distribution of child pornography switched from a commercial to an amateur 'cottage industry' involving the swapping and sharing of images among paedophiles.....The development of technologies and the Internet in particularm has blurred boundaries between commerical and amateur collectors and formed what has been called a new global cottage industry. The Internet allows images of sexual abuse of children to be distributed all over the world as a gift, and exchange or an item of commercial trade"

and

"The COPINE project at the University of has been conducting research on the volume and characteristics of child pornography on the internet. During a six week period in 2002 they came across 140,000 child abuse images, of these 35,000 were completely new. Twenty previously unseen children were identified among the images"

I realise this thread is not about child porn but I had to challenge some of the suggestions that child porn is no more widespread these days than it used to be.

The web address for this reference is www.nspcc.org.uk/inform/Info Briefing/ChildPornography.asp

(tried it as a link and couldn't get it to work, and I'm usually okay with links - so have conceded defeat and just given web address instead.

handlemecarefully Wed 01-Jun-05 09:14:39

Btw JanH I agree with you 1000%

handlemecarefully Wed 01-Jun-05 09:37:45
beetroot Wed 01-Jun-05 09:56:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

handlemecarefully Wed 01-Jun-05 10:04:29

Beetroot,

I'm not really talking about the running around naked thing anymore - have just gone off topic. Felt that I wanted to even up the tangential debate about whether child porn is on the increase or not

Gwenick Wed 01-Jun-05 10:04:53

HMC - of course the figures have risen, there's been a major crackdown on it.

"Mr Carr put the huge rise in the number of arrests and convictions down to Operation Ore, the police investigation set up to track down people who paid to download child abuse images from a website based in Texas."

And

"BT, Britain's largest high-speed internet provider, last year announced that it was blocking 23,000 attempts to access child abuse websites every day."

Yes, that's a lot of people, but not as many as would have been able to walk into a shop and browse through the magazines in the 70's. And also lets not forget that some 'unsavoury' adult porn websites can leave nasty 'things' on your computer which automatically prompt your computer to 'attempt' to open dodgy websites. Infact not always adult websites, I don't visit any of those types of site, yet I've still had the (thankfully) very rare virus which have meant that I've had not very tasteful websites opening on their own. These virus induced hits would also be included in the total.

Of COURSE the problem still exists, and yes it's easier to distribute these d(and lets not forget some of the equally wonderful reports in the Guardian on parenting issues...) is greatly at fault for making it appear the problem is a billion times worse and that our children are at greater risk (actually if you read the link I posted - yes all 9 pages of it) you'll see that they say a big majority of the new images are produced by 'sex tourists' travelling to the Far East etc. Quite a different ball game to our kids running naked on the beach!

handlemecarefully Wed 01-Jun-05 10:06:33

Ah, you would argue black was white missus!

Gwenick Wed 01-Jun-05 10:10:27

Ah, you would argue black was white missus!




ah but it is!!!!! They're just different shades of grey...........................






HappyDaddy Wed 01-Jun-05 10:16:21

I personally wouldn't but if others want to, that's upto them.

handlemecarefully Wed 01-Jun-05 10:20:28

That's my position exactly HappyDaddy - each to their own etc

Gwenick Wed 01-Jun-05 10:56:48

OK things we do agree on (as I really must get onto and do some 'stuff' today)

Allowing your child to run naked on the beach is parental preference.
Biggest actual risk is sun exposure, potential risk of unwanted oggling and photos.

Child porn, used to be and still is a major problem.





Now I'm off to discuss Black is White

handlemecarefully Wed 01-Jun-05 11:06:45

Now that would be a nice way to end this thread!

lucy5 Wed 01-Jun-05 11:42:17

or we could a naturist cyberhug hahaha!

beetroot Wed 01-Jun-05 11:43:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

handlemecarefully Wed 01-Jun-05 11:51:33

[doubtful emoticon] - me naked is not a nice image! - can I still be a 'textile' in our cyberhug?

beetroot Wed 01-Jun-05 14:05:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tigermoth Thu 02-Jun-05 07:56:56

long thread!

I'd have no problems with my 5 year old ds ( or a 7 year old) running around naked on a beach, if others were doing it too. If the beach was crowded and all the other 5 year olds had swimsuits on, I'd want ds to wear one too, so he wouldn't stand out on that particular beach. I wouldn't want him to sense people were staring at him. I think at 5 he just might pick up on the fact that people were staring at him - and by people I don't mean peadophiles. I wouldn't want him to be the possible object of teasing and pointing from other children and risk him feeling self conscious about being naked. On a beach with other children happily running around naked, I'd have no qualms about ds joining them.

I felt more worried about paedophiles when my oldest son was out in public in his cubs uniform, tbh. I would never let him walk back from cubs alone. This is probably me making wrong assumptions about paedophiles and uniforms, but there you go.

Picking up on nerdgirl's news about her 7 year old being denied access to the ladies changing room. Sympathies - I agee with others that the most practical solution is to use the disabled loos for changing and campaign for a family changing area.

I faced a similar situation with when my oldest son was 8 years old. As he was too old for the creche, he used to come into the exercise room and sit at the side for an hour while I took part in an exercise and weights class. He kept himself occupied with books and his gameboy. The class was mostly made up of women, but men were welcome. However, a women complained to the class teacher, and directly to me, about my son being present. She (and apparently a few others)didn't feel it was appropriate that an 8 year old boy was watching her doing strenuous exercise and the class teacher banned him from attenting Trying to explain this to my mystified 8 year old was not nice.

I complained in writing to the leisure centre, asking exactly what I was meant to do with my son while I was in a class - he was too old for the creche and too young to go to the swimming pool unattended. The reply stated that there were no childcare facilities for older children because there was no demand for them - load of rubbish, I think!

Fio2 Thu 02-Jun-05 08:21:33

I tend to limit them to not being naked on the sea front trampolines, but crikes people LOADS of kids are naked on the beach, its all cool man....stop stressing

Caligula Thu 02-Jun-05 08:34:10

Tigermoth, in your situation I simply wouldn't have been willing to stop myself telling that woman that she was a neurotic, uptight lunatic.

Because she is!

Toothache Thu 02-Jun-05 09:35:22

sorry folks... couldn't let this lie.... just noticed HMC's post to me.

HMC - You're SO quick to insult.... dismiss comments and to "go off on one"... yet you add a smiley or a comment at the end that you think plays down what you've posted.... well it doens't and to say that I'M dismissive is so hyporcritical. You have a cheek talking about anyones tone!

... there I've added a smiley... so I'm clearly not being a rude bitch.

handlemecarefully Thu 02-Jun-05 09:55:00

Good grief Toothache - you've shown your true colours there.

No smiley you'll notice.

I'm a bit taken aback actually - but it's your problem, not mine. Hope you feel better soon.

Fio2 Thu 02-Jun-05 11:28:45

and all before 10am

tigermoth Thu 02-Jun-05 12:27:58

caligula, if my son hadn't been present, and if the rest of the class weren't trying to lift weights( so needing to concentrate) I would have had a 'lively discussion' with her, definitely.


As she was not the only woman to feel like this, (she said) and as the class teacher agreed with her, I was outnumbered. I nearly stopped going to the class because of it, but it was the only class I wanted to do and the time was convenient. I gave that woman a very wide berth and still feel angry with her. I hope she has no children of her own.

I hate it when people superimpose their ideas of adult sexuality on chidren like this. It really gets my back up.

Gwenick Thu 02-Jun-05 12:31:10

hey what happened to our nice naked cyberhug!!!!

almostanangel Thu 02-Jun-05 12:33:35

they were a good group,,,,,oh read it wrong..that was new kids on the block..not naked kids on the beach ,,sorry lol

Toothache Thu 02-Jun-05 12:49:56

HMC - True colours? Don't act all the innocent. Perhaps your taken aback that someone is illustrating how you dress up your insults.... then act all shocked! HA!

I feel fine thanks.

SoupDragon Thu 02-Jun-05 13:00:02

Here's a timely news story from the Croydon Post: "Pensioner filmed naked girls in Diana Fountain"

Blu Thu 02-Jun-05 13:00:11

I am really pleased to let DS run naked on the beach, and also pleased when we find ourselves on one of those relaxed beaches where it is just accepted that it is ok to be without clothes (certain beaches in N Norfolk, and any mediterranean beach occupied any Germans and Dutch!). Because I think it is healthy and civilised to be able to be calm about naked bodies, and to be confident that naked bodies absolutely do not have to equate with 'sex'.

lisalisa Thu 02-Jun-05 13:05:36

Message withdrawn

Gwenick Thu 02-Jun-05 13:09:35

ah but soupy -

"His criminal record stretches back more than three decades and includes eight counts of indecently assaulting young girls, some of them attacks in parks."

and

"He told the court that at the Diana Memorial Fountain the film started with two young girls lying down fully clothed."

So, as I said in my posts,

a) people taking these pictures often have a 'history' of sexual abuse/attacks

b) That it doesn't matter whether they're fully clothed or not, they'll stick take the pictures!

Still shocking though!!







right back to those naked cyberhugs - this thread is threatening to get nasty again

Blu Thu 02-Jun-05 13:23:13

Also (re the pensioner..tho' what his pensionable status has to do with it, I'm not sure) he "had also been filming up the skirts of young girls as they clambered around the lions of Trafalgar Square."
So basically, any form of play in any state of dress or undress is a potential target.

I honestly think it is important that this confusion (between sexuality and naked bodies) is not implanted in children's minds.

batters Thu 02-Jun-05 13:27:22

Agree with blu .

tamum Thu 02-Jun-05 13:32:58

Me too

Hey, that rhymes!

Gwenick Thu 02-Jun-05 13:42:11

Thank you Blu - as per normal someone puts it much better than I ever could

Fio2 Thu 02-Jun-05 13:45:26

i agree with blu, too

tamum Thu 02-Jun-05 13:47:46

Well Fio, boo

To you

(this is art, this is).

I agree with you too Gwenick, it's just harder to find rhymes for your name

Blu Thu 02-Jun-05 13:50:47

Gwen,
How sen -
sible.

tamum Thu 02-Jun-05 13:51:20

That must be nearly a haiku. Blu.

Fio2 Thu 02-Jun-05 13:52:36

I thoought that too

tigermoth Thu 02-Jun-05 13:52:36

lisalisa, I really don't think it's a boy's fault if an adult woman feels uncomfortable with him watching her exercise in a public class. Any adult was free to attend the class. It was at a leisure centre. Any Tom, Dick or Harry can watch the class through the windows. It was up to the woman exercising to wear appropriate gear. If she felt her leg splits were revealing more than she would like, she could always wear bigger knickers!

People wear so many different types of exercise gear, there shouldn't be any problem in finding something less revealing. What about all those professional sportswomen who exert themselves in front of crowds of people - is there something inherently wrong about boys watching them?

Execise is exercise, especially if the person exercising chooses to do so in public - it is not a sexual come on. I totally disagree that boys of any age shouold be sho-ed away from an area where women are exercising because they might read more into it. It is very insulting to boys IMO. Fair enougth if they start sniggering, causing a disturbance etc - but this would apply to anyone, not just boys.

I do feel that's difference to your situation regarding your son in an all girls changing room after and all girls swimming lesson. Difficult to know what to do, there.

Fio2 Thu 02-Jun-05 13:53:34

tigermoth, if you ask me the world has gone mad

Blu Thu 02-Jun-05 13:55:55

But just to continue T'moth's point, in non-rhymong, non-iambic pentameters, I was outraged on your behalf, but then remembered an ex of mine who confessed that his earliest sexual interest came from sitting in on his mother's yoga class aged 9. He said he used to discreetly ogle and then later fantasise and masturbate.
But then again, where's the harm? It could be any woman in any situation - teachers, in the supermarket, on the beach...even having heard my ex's story, I still wouldn't stop an 8 year old watching an excercise class. Better to learn what they have to learn watching fully grown women than friends little sisters, or whatever.

And like medical students, they do have to learn this stuff!

Fio2 Thu 02-Jun-05 13:57:20

I think there is somethingh far more sinister about someone looking through ones letterbox, but we wont go into that

Blu Thu 02-Jun-05 13:57:45

I agree, Fi.

motherinferior Thu 02-Jun-05 13:59:42

Tigermoth and Tamum and Fio and Blu
Obviously I agree with all you.

I've just been swimming - quite frankly if the sight of my black one-piece excites illicit passions in the various lads around, I can't be arsed to be bothered.

handlemecarefully Thu 02-Jun-05 13:59:56

Just come on to offer an olive branch Toothache. Not keen to cross swords with you, and I am genuinely sorry if I upset you...but I can't promise I won't say something again if you say something that grates on me. I'll just make a very big effort to be pleasant and unprovocative in the way I bring it up (maybe I need to go to charm school)

I think this thread has been ill tempered on and off generally - it happens sometimes. One of those subjects that gets quite polarised and then leads to fisticuffs.

You've made me think though - I'm now quite worried that I come across as overly aggressive and argumentative. I don't want to be like that...

Sorry - had to add in an emoticon. I can't post without using them!