lol fruitstick

maybe we could rename them the 'throttle'em threes'

pheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew I'm not alone. Terrible twos - no problem, just lots of patience needed and not caring about being embarrassed in public. Terrible threes- serious mindscrew.

UPDATE: Day 5 of the chart and it's working! He's been so much better!!

it very much appeals to his competitive nature.

IOH - my friend did a fairy for her DD. THe fairy jumps from leaf to leaf to get to the flower.

fifitot - I let DS choose his reward (within reason) so far he's said he wants hot chocolate with marshmallows while watching a dvd. TBH if he said he wanted a bar of chocolate and had been good for 10 straight days I'd give it to him!

You know, the more I read, the more I think that there is a secret conspiracy amongst mothers... they all tell you about the terrible 2's but NOONE mentions the appalling 3's til you get to them, then they say 'oh yeah, that was harder than the 2's'!

When my DD was having tantrums at 2 I was told don't worry it gets better - not knowing that they meant they get better at the tantrums, not that they stop!

my dd (3.6) blocked me going into the kitchen this morning & told me " mammy i wont let you in until you give me toffee " it was 7.30am . lately my dh has started calling her veruca salt ( the brat from willy wonka)
she was the sweetest little girl up until a couple of months ago now she has gone back to throwing tantrums every day to get her own way. she still wakes up 3-4 times during the night screaming to get in2 our bed so i too feel your pain

I took lots of your advice and we had a water fight last night whilst watering the garden (saying nothing on the mean satisfaction of chucking water at DD). She loved it and was a dream to go to bed and has so far been much better today. Also playing with DD more and giving her cuddles when DS asleep on nap (which he is now, so shouldn't be on here should I!!!)

Please don't get me wrong too, but I have to say it is a relief to know that others feel like this - you seriously start to feel like there is something wrong with you.

I've also started taking evening primrose oil (apparantly ok if your bf) and that has helped calm me and therefore the entire household, but particularly DD.

Tryharder - it is v hard isn't it. I'm looking forward to the day when 'this stage too shall pass!'

I share your pain OP - in fact I could've written your post word for word other than our children are different sexes and ages.

DS1 (aged 4) was a difficult whingy baby who has grown up into a difficult whingy child. Like your DD, he's intelligent, good at many things, funny, attractive....but at times his behaviour is so nasty and brattish that I dislike him intensely! I so often feel ashamed of him because of the way he behaves in public and with friends and feel that people judge us negatively . I even fell out with a friend over DS1 as she called him a spoilt brat when he misbehaved on a daytrip and whereas I have the right to criticise my son, no-one else does - at least outloud (plus he's not spoilt at all)! But he is amazingly good with his little brother and they play really well together.

It doesn't help that DS2 is a cheery, smiley little soul who never cries or whinges and attracts only positive comments and compliments.

Whenever we are out as a family, DS1 seems to grab all the attention whereas DS2 just sits in his pushchair and you would hardly know he's there.

I am currently attending parenting classes because I feel that my own attitude to DS1 is so negative at times and I lose my temper with him more often than I feel is good for both of us. But the classes aren't really helping.

I find the only thing that does help is as others have said, trying to spend quality one on one time together. I try and take him swimming 3 or 4 times a week just the 2 of us and that has been a really positive thing.

I know the feeling, I have 2 DS at exactly the same age.

I think you unfairly compare the 2 as having your first baby was such a learning curve and so stressful, your new baby seems I breeze in comparison. I ofter wonder what I did all day when DS1 was a baby.

He now does that adorable thing of screaming nonsense words and noises really loudly in your face when actually all you want to do is coo lovingly at your chubby smiley baby.

The only advice I can give is to try to spend time just with her. The baby gets your time when she is at nursery but when she isn't, make DD the centre of your attention and try to have some fun. Last week we had a water fight in the garden and he loved it so much.. I realised what a boring 'mind the baby'mother I had been recently.

I think you also need a break from both of them, even it's only for an hour or two. I found that going out for just an hour or two without either of them made a world of difference.

Three is a terrible age especially with a new baby. I used to end every day sitting on the kitchen floor crying. I remember that year well ! It really does pass. I recommend the How to talk so your kids will listen book. Also, although i know this is not always possible, if you can take the older one out alone sometimes it really helps. My oldest still remembers her special times away from the baby. I also used to walk for hours with baby in push chair and toddler on the buggy board just to get away from it all. Now my oldest is the most pleasant part of my day and even gives other DD breakfast and brings me tea in bed. Your day will come!

Thankyou both! The idea of the jar is one I may try and am also going to buy the book you mention Imoverhere.

I feel a bit better today but it's only 7 am so a long way to go!

fifitot - believe me you are not alone (been dulling my day with Pimms hence not been on for a bit!).

Read some of what the others said for me and see if that helps. I've also just bought the 'How to talk to children so they will listen' book and am hoping this will help.

In terms of timeout, I have found that totally ignoring what goes on in DD's room (she has been known to throw everything around it), works a treat. V hard when she's just wee'd on the floor, but it can be done (my DD also used to scream til she threw up - I actually cured it by making no fuss when she did this once, just cleaned it up very quietly and made no comment).

As you know, I am struggling at the moment too but I have been heartened by what others have had to say for me on here.

Fifitot, didn't want this to go unanswered as you sound very upet and exhausted. Must shoot off in a mo to feed DS though.

It will pass I'm sure but on a day-to day level I'm sure others will have advice. I have also tried the ignoring thing and it works sometimes but other times its hard. I also use a bit of reverse psychology with my DD and avoiding confrontation by anticipating disaster times! For situations like getting dressed/in the car-seat have you tried not asking her as such but just doing it whilst chatting to her about something else? Making out like its not a big issue for you, just an idea.
On my post-natal thread someone also mentioned the pasta jar reward system, empty jar, 5 pieces of pasta per good thing, take one out for a bad thing....when jar is filled to an agreed point then a treat is rewarded (outing, small toy, extra pudding, money in money box, allowed to watch fave programme, extra book at bedtime, stickers etc).

Can you put her in timeout in a room with a wipeable floor and then act like the pee isn't an issue (just clean up without saying anything). I do find timeout really works with DD as does explaining to her gently how she has hurt my feelings by not listenng etc.

It is exhausting though and i wish you luck, the time I love mine most is when she is asleep but i'm sure that will change soon!

I too have a very challenging 3 year old DD who is driving me insane. Everything is a battle. Wakes up at the crack of dawn and wont' go back to bed, then won't put clothes on etc. At bed time won't get in bath then gets in and won't get out, screams when doesn't get her own way. Bites me when I stand up to her. Put her in her room for 'time out' and she wees on the floor!!!!

Am really struggling and starting to lose my temper with her. Have never hit her but have really shouted and of course I know that doesn't help and feel terrible afterwards.

Thing is she doesn't really have tantrums in the classic sense, so that I could just ignore and walk away until they are over. She just challenges everything and refuses to do stuff. Things like get in her car seat etc. It totally slows everything up. Haven't got time to argue with her and find negotiation a waste of time.

Naughty step doesn't really work either so have given that up. I don't really believe in it to be honest.

Just need some techniques to just get through the day. I can't ignore her behaviour when it's about getting dressed to go out or getting in the car - haven't got time! So what do I do? Get into a physical battle to put her in the car seat? That has happened and she screamed and scratched me!

I have tried sticker charts but don't know what the reward should be. She demands choclate! What do others do?

Feel exhausted by this. Love her dearly but sruggling.

Yes, from Handy Manny . Has been DD's obsession for the past year!!!! I'll join you in a virtual glass of wine (just one though as will need to bf later!) as have just lost out on the house we wanted .

Quite impressed your DD will go in the shower, mine won't even entertain it!

Patthehammer (from Handy Manny??) I shall be there, have been on the thread.

Trying to spend time with her, but when DS falls asleep for his nap, all I want to do is do the same. I will make a greater effort because it does pay dividents.

purplemonkey - do you think it's something to do with the first born? Most of my friends difficult little ones were their first ones. Have tried the star chart but I like the rocket ship, I think my DD might fall for something like that.

Took her swimming, which was fine til she refused to get out of the shower, at which point she had a tantrum (got home to discover from DH that he never lets her in the shower when he takes her because of that very reason!), but we're doing fine.

DH putting her to bed tonight so I shall chill with a glass of wine and spend ages on mumsnet read engaging books on childcare.

ImOverHere - i totally feel your pain. DS is the same age as your DD and I have a 10wk old DD who is an angel! she is infinitely easier than he is!

right now we are trying a chart system. very basic. it's a rocket ship. if he's good during the day the rocket goes up. if not, it goes down. when it gets to the top star (there are 10) he gets a treat. it's only the 2nd day of it but there is a definite difference!

Glad you had a better day, getting out on your own is ideal so hope this helps. I try and make a special point of playing one-to-one game/reading etc with DD when DS has afternoon nap (2.15 till 3.45 without fail at the moment .

Think the meet-up is in the afternoon. I am going to get there for lunchtime and give mine a packed lunch there. Should be writing this on that thread really but couldn't find it!

OK, so far having not too bad a day. Tried to be muchn more patient today with her and in turn she has been a great deal nicer to me and everyone else.

We are going out on our own later for her swimming lesson, so hoping that will be OK.

I'm just very tired today and have been feeling pre-menstural (poss pnd but really hoping not as DS much easier baby) of late.

Thank you for your comments and advice so far. It's good to know that others feel the same too sometimes.

I think for my sanity I shal make it. Thursday she is usually in nursery, but sometimes you need to get out and meet other people!

Yes dick whittington farm park, not sure of time . Have a look on thread, hope you can make it!

Hello Pat, No I hadn't noticed that. Where abouts in Longhope - the Dick Whittington farm park/play barn? She loves it there. What time, I shall come along (I'll look for the thread later - of out to my granparents with dc's now, to break up the day a tad).

Port and Lemon - Yes I shall take her out on her own, that's a good idea. MIght remind me why I have liked her (and do still love her - honestly) I have taken her shopping, but like you say, its not really a 3yr old activity!

<<sorry for hijack>> Hi Imoverhere! Have you noticed there is a Gloucester meet-up on thursday at Longhope? Bring your DD and meet an equally challenging 3yr old DD (ahem, mine!). Also have a 6mth old DS who is a joy (feel guilty just saying that!). Know how you feel x 100

When you are in a position to be able to leave your DS with someone, can you get out for a day with just you and DD? Or get out for a morning or afternoon with just the two of you now? I felt quite like you did with DS a lot of the time after DD was born, and I think spending some time devoted to him (and we went to do stuff I knew he'd like, and I made an effort to approach the day like a four-year-old and not get too stressed about stuff) really helped us to reconnect.

I expect she is feeling displaced with having a brother to contend with for attention.

yup, unbelievably stressful is a v good way of describing it!

Well, you're under a lot of pressure.

It really colours and dominates your life. It doesn't help when people don't believe you either! My relatives were amazed when I told them how difficult my DS is/was. He's not too bad now although we do brace ourselves.

Being out and about a lot can dilute the situation too. Lots of walks, summer fairs, soft play - stuff to keep them busy, get them tired but also takes away the intensity of their anger that can be overwhelming when you're in four walls at home.

I very calmly put DS in his room when he's raging. I tell him he can come out when he's stopped shouting and screaming and ready to say sorry. It gives me time to calm down too. It's unbelievably stressful.

Winky - Yes, we too find ourselves dreading what she is going to shout and moan about next and can feel afraid of it (more for the sense of - Oh GOD not again, rather than not dealing with it).

We used to be much more chilled in terms of not caring so much about things (like not putting her shoes on etc), but lately I just wish that for once she would.

Trying v hard to ignore the bad and praise the good (quite tuff when the good is few and far between).

She does love her brother and has always been very good with him - just me and her dad she's a bloody nightmare with.

I know she can be a lot of fun, I've just lost sight of that lately because its all such hard work.

moan moan moan eh... think I need to belt up a bit!

I think you have to let all the difficult baby and toddler stuff go - don't let it colour your impression of her now or your reaction to her.

Lots of people find it hard when they have a gorgeous cute cuddly easy baby to deal with and a trying 3yo (I only have one but have heard this again and again from friends and relatives).

It is hard for her, being displaced by a new baby. And you may try not to let your feelings show but children are VERY perceptive and pick up on cues you don't even know you are giving.

Have you got any child development books, so you can reassure yourself this is normal 3yo behaviour?

The 'this too shall pass' mantra is VERY helpful I find when ds is going through a challenging stage!

I agree with Winky, we are trying hard to ignore DS2's bad behaviour as we realised that our entire family was being ruled by him, a 3 year old!

He was awake at 12.30am this morning shouting his head off and demanding things, we checked on him, told him to go to sleep and then ignored his demands. He went back to sleep (after 30 minutes, matchsticks for my eyes please) but I'd previously have tried to appease him so that he'd sleep.

Ignoring the bad and praising the good is my mantra atm, mainly because I realised that
DS1 was giving in to DS2 as well and it wasn't fair on him, we were all on eggshells trying to avoid a meltdown.

BTW, my DS doesn't have special needs as far as I know. It was just a way of my generating more patience for dealing with his behaviour.

Will stop now!

You've got a new(ish) baby who is lovely and easy - it's easy to compare and contrast. Wait until No.2 is a nightmare and then No.1 will seem lovely again! It all seems to be swings and roundabouts with two - it took me 18 months to really like both my children at the same time after the birth of dd2, but with 3 life is wonderful!

Also, how is she around her sister? Does she dote on her or is she jealous?

Could there be a connection between the arrival of her sister and her difficult behaviour?

Is she punishing you for sending her to nursery still whilst you are at home with the baby?

I don't think you should feel guilty at all for sending her to nursery. She'll benefit a lot from being with other children and in good caring hands. And your relationship with her will benefit too because you're not with her all the time, dealing with the problems that her age can bring.

It's really hard when you have a difficult child. ImOverHere, you have my total sympathies.

DS (aged 4 and 2 months) has been really objectionable since he was 2. DH and I were in pits of despair with his constant rages, poor sleep patterns and generally difficult behaviour. We were walking on eggshells around him and I actually was afraid of him for a long time because of wanting to avoid his easily triggered fury.

I can categorically say I did not like DS during this period. He got lots of hugs, positive words, came into our bed at night whenever he wanted etc but I did not like him, I'd say for 80% of the time.

And whilst that is far from ideal, we're all human. If you have someone who is constantly difficult and challenging in your life, it's natural to have negative feelings about them.

The difference is whether you show those negative feelings. Obviously, if your DD is being annoying, you can think all the things in your head that you would like to say as a release for some of the pressure you're under. But don't say them. You can still show her that her behaviour is unacceptable by being firm and calm in your rejection of the behaviour.

Don't take what she says too seriously. Lots of 'no's' etc - she might not really mean what she says. I just ignored my DS's no's and other unhelpful spiel. I pretended he didn't have a clue what he was saying and that helped.

Erm, in fact, my mantra in difficult times was, "This too shall pass, this too shall pass," and "Don't be too hard on him - he has special needs," or I would pretend he was someone else's child in order to get some detachment from him.

Also, walk away from her if she is being problematic. If it's to do with getting dressed and stuff like that, put her in the car in her pyjamas and take her clothes and shoes with you so that when you get to where you need to go, you can put her in them. Or not. It doesn't matter.

The good news is that it gets better. I kept DS busy with activities that burned his energy like football, mini gym and swimming and lots of playdates. I know that my friends too found him difficult and I really thank them for putting up with him on these playdates!

Bear up. It does get better over time. Try to anticipate when she gets difficult and think of ways to circumnavigate those flash points. Or write them down on MN and we could come up with suggestions?

Sorry for ramble. I just feel your pain!

I have heard that the 3's are hard (am wondering when the easy stages arrive???).

We've just tried night training with her and she was doing really well, but seems to have decided that, because she doesn't get in trouble she might as well wet the bed. THis is the sort of thinking I have all the time from her. She always makes it so hard when we could have had an easy time of things.

I read a thread on here saying DS were harder work than DD's, but I can honestly say that my DD is equally as hard as anyone elses DS!

I so understand the relief when they go to nursery!

If it is any solace, DS1 was a terror during his 3's, settled down a bit during the 4's and now is usually a well behaved and lovely 5 year old. Truly, he has his moments but he seems to understand more that if he is good he gets praise and is more likely to get what he wants!

Yes, I kept up nursery when I started on maternity leave so she still goes 3 days a week (otherwise I'll lose the place). When she leaves with her dad in the morning I can feel a real sense of relief (which then makes me feel guilty).

Yes, I agree, the 3's are harder than the 2's. You can almost forgive the 2's because they don't understand so much, but as they get older they do and it becomes harder.

I am remembering now that DS2 is 3 that 3yrs old is actually harder than the terrible twos. He is so stubborn and yes, defiant and my lovely cuddly boy seems to have vanished.

Does your DD go to nursery/preschool/playgroup at all?

Of course you love her, but sometimes they seem to press every button going, don't they?

I've got a DD aged 3.8 and 4mth old DS. DD has always been a struggle. Didn't sleep properly til 18mths, crawled at 5mths, (climbed the sofa at 10wks - I kid you not)wouldn't take a bottle or cup when I was desperate to stop bf, can whinge for england, and lately has developed a lovely attitude (wont listen, says no constantly, is very defiant). On the up side she is bright, funny, active and very pretty (obviously).

However, I am finding that each stage with her is so difficult, you get no room for mistakes with her, she can be awkward, lazy and downright defiant and TBH, lately I am finding it difficult to like her.

And this makes me feel terrible and awful and guilty and tearful. I do love her and wouldn't do anything bad to her but I need a sense of perspective here. SHe is only 3 and I need to chill out, but it's hard.

DS is no bother at all (am trying v hard not to compare, but it is difficult when he is such a good baby and she was a nightmare), although I am still up feeding about 3 times during the night.

Please help me get my head around this and help her and me to get on again. I need to be the adult, but sometimes all I want to do is stamp my feet and cry.