To a certain extend, explaining does work with ds2 ie at least he knows why the answer is Yes or No. But if he has decided to kick of, that will not stop him (he is much to stubborn for that )
For the story of the hat, for a change I had nothing to do with it! ds1 choose his hat, ds2 saw and took it out of his hands. ds1 said 'Nooo' and that was it really. ds2 has a hat of his own so not an issue of 'he has one and I don't'. Hence the fact I did carry him, rugby ball style, his back towards me to the school (thanksfully it's not too far). Didn't stop him screaming though or make him calm down or change his attitude (ie similar situation happened two days later about another object).

I agree about THE thing that will work. It's just that I haven't found it (or the one I have found doesn't sound very appealing). So if any suggestion is welcome

Hmmm, explaining things has no effect on mine. I do tend to pick up and carry rugby ball style quite a lot. Mine is quite small and petite though.

I think you have to keep trying different things until you find THE thing that will work with your son. DS1, 4, is going through the same thing - wouldn't respond to bribery, punishment, naughty step etc. Just recently I have withdrawn all treats and put a star chart on the wall. When he gets 5 stars for good behaviour, he gets to choose a treat. For some reason this seems to be working - no idea why, but I think you just need to hone in to the thing you know makes your son tick. Easier said than done though... it's so exasperating isn't it.

Did you stop at the time and explain why DS1 needed to keep his hat on? Did DS2 have a hat?
Did you ask DS1 if he could have the hat making it clear that if he said no then that was the answer full stop? e.g. you listen to ds2s request and deal with it sensibly, but if the answer is no, it is no.
Does he like being carried? If not can you say "If you continue screaming about the hat I shall have to carry you" If he does can you suggest that you really wanted to give him a piggy back to school, but you can't carry a screaming child.
You kind of need a perpetual artillery of bribes and constraints so you can give a choice. The choice always has to be 2 options you are happy with though and a tantrum is making a choice for the constraint/negative option.
Have you tried setting time challenges? e.g. I wonder if you can get your shoes on in less than 10 seconds? On your marks...

Gosh if the only thing they need to besuccessful in life is to be determine, both of mines are in very good position...

It's nice to hear abut other people though. It helps reminding me thst it's not me but his temperament that makes everything difficult!

I can really sympathise Pitch. Mine crawled round a shopping centre once screaming (age nearly 4) and the LOOKS I got! Only one person came up to me to offer support. I really think peolpe must think we're doing something awful to our children. WE ARE NOT. We just have determined little people. Just think how successful they'll prob be in later life.

Pitchounette I have DS2 who is 4 and still has screaming fits on way to school / when asked to do something he doesn't like etc. He has also never responded to rewards / threats / naughty steps or anything. Not sure this will be very helpful, as I don't think we have found a solution (although being completely consistent and repeating calmly that I will only talk to him when he calms down has helped me deal with it, if not helped stop the behaviour). But the only thing that has recently caused him to stop in his tracks is when I take a toy he is holding at the time and put it in a clear plastic box on top of cupboard / wardrobes / shelves. It seems to distract him just enough from whatever is the problem to focussing on how to get the toy back (BEHAVE YOURSELF ) and it works. Sometimes.

Can I just vent and say he won't bloody wear most of his clothes for no reason whatsoever so the 2 acceptable T shirts are forever in the washing machine. When did 4 year old boys care about this stuff?????? Sorry.

I get you haven't found an easy solution then??

Yes, I think what really gets me atm are the tantrums. I have sort of learnt to deal with the 'No I am not going to do it' and found ways around it but the tantrums ...
Last week, he kicked a fuss because he wanted to have ds1 sunhat. ds1 wanted to keep it to go to school. Shock horror!! ds2 screamed from our entrance up to the school (had to carry him too..), was still screaming in the middle of the playground up to the point that teachers and the head came to see what was happening.... He calmed down only when I pointed out that it was time to go in and that he needed to calm down to ake peace with me (ie have a cuddle together). When he came out 2.5 hours later, he was still moaning about it!!

smee yes I have done that or more exactely, he is normally going in our entrance and is told that he can come out when he is ready to do X. Worked quite well until...he worked out that in some situations, that was actually fantastic.
eg 'I don't want to stay at the table, so I'll kick a fuss, go in the entrance and yeahhh! that's it, I am not at the table anymore !!'

<<whispers>>
The only thing that has ever had an impact on him is a cold shower . I know he really hates that and had to resort to it during our last holidays. It did it once and it worked but it feels totally wrong to do it.

Pitchounette - are our children related? They sound very similar. I have to keep changing the way I (try to) deal with it, as after a few weeks of one method, it stops being effective. I am currently trying "talk and listen" As soon as she kicks off, I ask her if we have a problem and she talks while I listen, and then we swap over. This can stop a huge tantrum and keep her in a state where you can engage with her. I'm sure you know what it's like when they have 'gone' - nothing can get their attention, and mine is often too physical to leave unattended.

duBious honour

Pitchounette have you tried removing yourself? Not always practical, but it works with my DS. So if he's being horrendous, I say okay I'll go and do x,y,z when you're ready to stop come and tell me and I'll come back. Drives him bonkers, but it does work. I go into my little work room and shut the door on him. I think it's because I'm not engaging with it, so there's no argument.

Mine has an authority problem. Total lack of repect for adults. She has the dudious honour of getting herself expelled from a creche for temper tantrums. Also had phone calls home from day nursery and pre-school.
DS1 is an angel, and has good manners and is respectful. How can you loose so much parenting control in the space of 3 yrs??

I have no idea how it will work next year. He is normally very quiet when he is not totally at ease so until now it hasn't been a problem. His teacher has started to say that he is getting very mischievious (sp?) but that she wasn't surprised because it's the end of the year.. I haven't dare saying that he is just being himself...

My ds2 is nearly 4 and exactly the same. They tell me every day that he is an angel at nursery which makes it even worse. Roll on January when he starts school!

childrensservant, it's nice to know I am not the only one! I sometimes wonder if I have become blind since having him and have forgotten how to deal with little monsters angels all together....

Anyone with brilliant ideas this morning?

Hey - I have a DD2 just the same. Drives me INSANE .
She is 4 too!!! Due to start school etc etc.....
Afaid I can't advise, other than to stay calm (I use medication!!)
I tend to ignore her alot, and to say her behaviour makes her look like a baby. (mean but it does work sometimes).
Nightmare to get out the house sometimes I agree. I also threaten to drive off without her, start the car up etc( again!).
Good luck to you I say.

I can see what you mean by when he will understand that 'you mean business then he will stop pushing you. My problem is that I haven't found what it is that will make him understand that!!

I don't want to be negative but I don't think I am not following through. Has always done so as I am very stubborn and hates not getting my own way

The thing is rewards do not work either!!! Time out doesn't work, bribery (like you can have your icecream when you have finish eating your dinner) doesn't work, explaining doesn't always work, HTT is also very unreliable (OK to get over the fact that he not going to get X but not to ensure he is doing Z), sticker don't work... Can you see I have tried everything under the sun I could think of?

He is doing it to see how far he can push you and when you are tired and worn out (like me with 3 kids) its easy for him to get to you.

If you can and I know its hard (but it works for my son) go over board with praise for good behaviour, activities he has done however little ie: saying please, thankyou, tidying up toys show him and tell how well he has done. My son's little chest literally puffs up when I do this.
When he is naughty give him 1 warning and say that if he does it again you will give him time out on his own ie: naughty step.
The best bit of advice is BE CONSISTENT AND ALWAYS FOLLOW THROUGH!!!
If he knows that you mean business then he will stop pushing you.
When I started this with my son he thought it was a big joke all the time and just carried on playing up. he soon got the message when my other kids got to go to the park with their dad and he stayed to clean the bathroom with me!!
Good Luck- just remember its all for your attention.

He is really funny and is really good at pulling faces etc when I am telling him of (so much so that I find it difficult to keep my face straight). I am very aware that this is part of who he is and that's what makes him a nice person to be around to. I am not trying to suppress that but when he will be reception next year, he will have to do what he is told (beside the fact that I will loose my sanity before the end of the school hol at that rate)

Shoes are an issue : we are walking to school . with this weather he would be going without shoes on. In winter, he would plainly refuse to go to school....

I'm really trying to think here - not easy. He does sound really funny though, a real charecter as they say. Could he perhapes get in the car with no shoes on and then you do it when you get to school? Choose your battles?

We already have done for a long time. It's impossible to do anything with him otherwise.

The things 'that have to be done' can be (not in importance order)
- accept that ds1 wants to keep his sunhat and will not share it with him
- refuse to do XYZ (eating, staying at the table when eating, putting his shoes on to go to school, stopping his brother to go to sleep etc etc etc)
- telling tales
- just not doing X because you have ask him to do it
- doing Y because you have told not to do it
- doing Z because you have just told ds1 off for doing so

As a matter of fact, his standard answer is 'NO' except when you propose him an icecream, in which case you have 'NOOO err YES!'

What exactly is your definition of what needs to be done? Could some of these be safely left undone? How much free time do you have together? Are you comfortable with letting him take control? eg, to get my 22m ds to brush his teeth I let him brush mine - really pleasant experience!, but it works. Would you feel comfortable doing something like that?

ds2 is 4yo. He is the sort child who will grow into the clown of the class. Always laughing, even (or shall I especially?) when he is told of. Until now I have managed to ensure that he is behaving using a complex system of explaining, counting to 3 (not sure what he thinks will happen then) and the old 'You are staying here until when you are ready to do X', here being some sort of time out zone.

These last few weeks however, it has reached new heights. Not only it is impossible to make him do what you need him to do but we also have huge screaming fits (lasting more than 30 min) because he doesn't get his own way. He is also inventing all sort of reasons as why he can't do XYZ, like he can't eat because his hair is hurting . It is at the stage where something has to change.

So, what do you do with a child who is not responsive to punishments or rewards? How can you make them do things they have to do when nothing seems to have an impact on them?