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Motherhood, Feminism, Econony - discuss!

143 replies

kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 15:35

Wrote this to a friend today (poor woman!). What do you all think of this issue?

"Also part of this issue is economy. I understand what you said in your text about breastfeeding, mothering, etc, being part of what has traditionally kept women at home, and therefore, away from economic independence ? forced to rely on men to survive, and therefore, motherhood itself can be seen as a misogynistic institution, as deeply anti-feminist, as it denies women the freedom they should have as a right.

But for many years now, long before I became a mother incidentally, I have had a growing feeling that this feminist attitude is immature, because it denies women the freedom to be mothers, which is OUR BILOGICAL DESTINY, so not something we should deny if we don?t want to. It?s like saying a person who has an inborn artistic talent, and really wants to paint, must work at tescos! Most women want to be mothers, are compelled to experience motherhood. I?m not saying that they all should, just that most women do want this. Those that do should be able to fulfill their biological destiny responsibly, but they do not have the freedom to be able to do so without a man (or at least a lesbian money-earning partner!) because of the MALE-BIASED system of economy in which we live.

Women should be able to survive AND raise their children. In an economic system, they cannot do so independently. The system is anti-female, and ?feminists? that devalue NATURAL FEMALE ATTRIBUTES because of these constraints of the system (encourage women to be independent workers rather than dependant mothers), even if they do so in the name of economic independence are, in my humble opinion, misguided, because they are colluding with an inherently anti-female system by trying to work within it. Its like asking black people to work within and accept a system which is set up for whites, and in which their natural state (the colour of their skin) puts them at a disadvantage. We would never expect black people to accept those terms (or think that it would be non-rascist to do so), yet we expect mothers to accept having to work within a system that is stacked up against them. How can you care for a sick child when your boss will think you are shit for not being at the office? How can you breastfeed a 3-year-old if you want to, but your boss wants to know why you can?t go for a week-long business trip once a month. In this situation, no boss would favour a female mother employee over a male, even if she were better at her job, because her role as mother would cost the company some of its profit.

ALL OF THAT is anti-feminist in my thinking.

I don?t think all women want to or should be mothers, just that the ones that don?t generally have it easier in terms of (economic) survival than those that do, and this is wrong. Also, all that immature 1960s feminism, while it made great strides for women, has greatly served to devalue the role of mother IN WOMEN?S EYES AS WELL AS MEN?S, and that, to me, is deeply misogynistic, given our physiology and natural desire in most cases to have children."

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LittleWonder · 30/04/2008 15:36

You TEXTED all that?

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 15:36

no! emailed!

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 15:46

bump.

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WowOoo · 30/04/2008 15:50

Yes, some interesting points there! Well done for getting it all out...
Are you experiencing some angst/frustration perchance?
I had some good feminist rants to dh for not being good role model and helping with housework (when he got back from work - poor man - late last night) !

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Fennel · 30/04/2008 15:52

I am not quite sure which bit is your opinion and which bit you are arguing against. Are you saying that it's anti-feminist that women can't both be full time carers for their children and not economically disadvantaged for doing so?

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 15:52

no, just generally rabid and aarchic at this time of the month

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 15:54

yes fennel. That being a mum puts you at a urvival (economic) disadvantage, or gives you no other choice than surval (economic) dependency.

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 15:55

should be "survival"

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OverMyDeadBody · 30/04/2008 16:22

Is this why you find yourself knee deep in dirty laundry then?

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OverMyDeadBody · 30/04/2008 16:25

If you think of us as animals, then it is perfectly natural that the female does the majority of the mothering while the male supports that all important role by protecting the female and the offspring and bringing food for them, much like other animals and birds.

The feminist attitude you described is immature, I agree.

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 16:25

Quite!

Suits me better than office politics, anyway.

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OverMyDeadBody · 30/04/2008 16:26

I meant as in you're too busy writing essays on neo feminism to do the laundry!

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 16:26

I think we have a lot of the problems we do as a race because we don't think of ourselves as animals, overmydeadbody.

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 16:28

Oh. yes, true!

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edam · 30/04/2008 16:28

Capitalism has distorted feminism IMO. So most families need two incomes just to get buy these days - little option for many women to stay at home when their babies are small should they want to. And yet we still are under-represented in the top jobs... even if you compare full-time/full-time.

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OverMyDeadBody · 30/04/2008 16:29

we need to get back to basics then, get off our high horses and accept that we really are just animals, very sophisticated ones yes, but still just animals.

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 16:29

How do you think we could do that?

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Nagapie · 30/04/2008 16:30

Geez - home must be one helluva party!!!

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policywonk · 30/04/2008 16:30

I don't understand this insistence on economic independence to the exclusion of all else. I mean, I understand that money is useful (and sometimes essential), but to say that a woman who chooses to pursue something other than money is anti-feminist is just stoopid. Calling motherhood a 'misogynistic institution' is head-spinningly stoopid, IMO. Is your mate doing her GCSEs or something?

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that dependency is a female characteristic. However, I wholeheartedly agree that our current economic system sets most mothers up to fail.

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 16:31

Is it captialism, or just the idea of needing to earn money to feed yourself full stop, rather than find/create your means of survival directly, edam (which a woman could do with children around - growing food, for instance)?

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moondog · 30/04/2008 16:33

Well said Knee.
I think though that women need to negotiate more with the men they have children with to achieve a life that encompasses both paid and unpaid (ie domestic and maternal) work.

The constant exhortion for 'society' to change grates a bit. i personally am astounded at the amount of women who choose to live with and have children by utter fuckwits.

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scaryteacher · 30/04/2008 16:34

We also need to accept perhaps that we have different skills due to our genders and embrace that, rather than resenting and denying it. I'm not saying that women aren't as good as men, but that we are different so why not use that to our advantage?

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 16:34

policywonk, my friend has not responded (shock), but this whole conversation spun out of her shock at me still bfing my 3 yo ds. "Don't you want your boobs back" kind of wonder on her part. I do suspect she'll see the sense in it though, (and to set the record straight on her part, it wasn't her that called motherhood a misogynistic institution, that was my putting words into the mouths of so-called feminists).

Nagapie, this is a party for me!

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 16:36

moondog, scaryteacher, good points.

But moondog, I think society changes both from the personal level outwards, and the public level inwards, if you know what I mean.

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moondog · 30/04/2008 16:37

Yes, very true.

When i had a baby,the realisation that i was so vulnerable-physically,emotinally,and financially was very scarey indeed.
And my dh is lovely.

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