OK, so I'm reading Alfie Kohn...

[Monkeybird]

...and it is very interesting. And is making me feel like SHITE. As if I've been a disaster area my whole parenting life (punishments/consequences: tick. rewards/bribes: tick...). And I can see the WHOLE logic of his argument and it all makes complete sense.

My oldest child is a PITA sometimes. I think I love him unconditionally and that DH does too. But reading the book makes me go OHMYGOD, that is why he's like this, it's ALL US...

And while that's a bit depressing, I'll get over it, that's what parents have to do.

But two questions...

1. I like to think through things and look at evidence. Who challenges Alfie's approach? Who are his critics? What do they put to him?

1. If a family were to make a complete sea-change in approach, how would you do it? I already think me and the DH have different parenting styles: me a bit more Alfie-ish anyway, him quite strict and firm and wanting very clear boundaries and consquences. I can't see him going for it at all...

I haven't got to the bit about what to actually do and the issues with our eldest seem insurmountable sometimes - he can be very defiant. But presumably (Alfie says) some of that defiance is because we're probably too controlling...?

What do you do?

[TeaDr1nker]

Who is Alfie Kohn? If it makes you feel shite, put it in the bin.

[PortAndLemon]

There isn't much about what to actually do in Unconditional Parenting, to be honest (partly because much of what Alfie Kohn does is aimed at schools and educators -- his books on education tend to have a lot more practical stuff in them). If you want a more practical "so how do I actually do this unconditional parenting lark" book I suggest Smart Love by Martha and William Pieper.

I've not come across specific critics partly because Alfie Kohn isn't widely enough followed or read for anyone to get particularly wound up about him. Ultimately virtually everyone still follows a sanctions-and-rewards model.

[winebeforepearls]

I'm just reading it too, Monkeybird, and it is very and thought-provoking. And yes I can quite see his point, but ...

TBH, the bit where he tells you how to apply his theories is wonderfully vague. I think you're supposed to just keep explaining to the dcs why perhaps it's better to do x rather than y, and constantly ask 'what do you think you should do?'

But I keep thinking 'oh come on, who has the time already?' and 'yes, but they're only 1/3/5 ...'

Not sure if he has any loud and outspoken direct critics as such.

And also difficult to see how you can apply it consistently without being a doormat or eventually say, 'we have to do that now just because.'

[winebeforepearls]

oh, that's interesting P&L, will look at Smart Love.

My DH is quite open to it, but naturally very old-fashioned disciplinarian, so not sure how far he would go ...

[Monkeybird]

shite in a good way teadrinker iyswim...

thing is I'm persuaded by his arguments...

pandl, does everyone?

[winebeforepearls]

Also I find his advice about not praising your children's efforts rather

I kind of get his point, but still say, 'oh fantastic painting'.

[PortAndLemon]

I only said "virtually" everyone . I don't know anyone else in RL who's even read Alfie Kohn, and pretty much all the childhood discipline books out there (if I browse along the shelf in Waterstone's, say) seem to follow some combination of "time out" and "praise good behaviour and ignore bad behaviour". I may be missing some vast underground movement, of course...

[JodieG1]

I've read Alfie Kohn and do tend to agree with him. Just wish I could stick with it all the time, I'm AP anyway but think I'll need to re-read unconditional parenting for a few reminders.

[PortAndLemon]

I do generally manage to say "Wow, what bright colours" or "What a happy-looking giraffe", or something like that... sometimes "I really like those bright colours" or "I like how the giraffe looks so happy" (if I do like it, I don't see that there's any harm in saying so). To be honest, DS doesn't seem to particularly want to be told it's a fantastic painting so much as he wants me to actually pay attention to it and talk to him.

[Fillyjonk]

oh I must come back and read this thread, I do like alfie kohn

though when confronted by his more suggestions I like to remind myself that his own kids are 5 years apart in age

[winebeforepearls]

Yes, that's the point, and I try to do that. And talk to them when they've just whacked their little sister, rather than shout and send to the naughty step.

some days ...

[taliac]

I read it but am really quite resistant to it tbh.

He makes some interesting points, but the general thrust of the book seems to me to be a very critical "look, you're doing it all wrong" without giving any real advice on how to get it "right".

I think most people who read parenting books really love their children and want them to grow up to be wonderful adults. Undermining parents confidence is not helpful, and I think that is what this book does..

I have taken some things away from it. Like watching how much I try to "control" her activities - ie, if we're walking to the shops but she wants to run around on the green for a while on the way, then why not? Or if she really doesnt want to do something, then I don't try and make her unless its actually important. That sort of stuff. I still praise her to the hilt though!

[Fillyjonk]

oh and imo the real downfall with alfie kohn is in interactions BETWEEN kids. Fine to spend your days wafting about saying non-conditional stuff-but how do you sort out fights between kids using that approach?

(genuine question)

let alone where the kids are from different families and one family uses AK and the other is far more supernanny...

[nkf]

Can you summarise him?

[S1ur]

Hey monkeybird, There was a fantastic albeit incredibly long thread about this last year here if you get a chance to scan it there are some very good posts on there.

I think ALfie has some very welll thought out and researched theories. But I also think that unconditional parenting can make you feel like you have been doing it all wrong and have caused untold damge to your child. I don't think that is the case but changing some aspects of negative parenting is worthwhile at any stage/age.

'How to talk so children will listen' has been recommended to me as a more accessible AK -esque book.

[Monkeybird]

my two eldest are 5 years apart and TBH that makes it harder (they want to do quite different things)

Just now (shock! had to put MN down and give my youngest two some attention ) the 3yo wanted a snack. I made some toast. He didn't want toast. I said I know you don't want toast but this is what we have. After a bit of paddying, I said if you really don't want it you can have a small bowl of cheerios or an apple.

Cue hysterical screaming. throwing train track at the windows and the baby. OK he's a bit poorly. I distracted him. I reasoned with him. i left the toast there.

It's all about ham. He really wants ham. We don't have any.

I'm Alfie-ing away, acknowledging his need and trying to work out what we can do without just completely doing whatever whenever he wants (surely this isn't what AK is advocating?). Meanwhile he's kicking me and shouting at the top of his voice, scaring the baby. A little time out is looking very close TBH.

[S1ur]

Book says

don't punish
don't reward
don't withdraw love for unacceptable behaviour
guide your child towards socially acceptable behaviour
model good behaviour
work on having a good relationship with them

ta dahhh
©Franny Dec07

[morningpaper]

I must read this book because whenever I read these threads I think 'What a load of toss'

I actually am heavily in favour of the disciplinarian approach I think

Also I have absolutely no patience

[Monkeybird]

I'm gonna get a bit poncey here I imagine, but the bit that is persuasive is where he says that it is very difficult for a child to develop a strong moral and empathetic sense when they are motivated by extrinsic motivations (either punishment or rewards). And this makes SO much sense to me, since my eldest is sometimes psychopathic in his inability to think beyond what he can get out of a situation sometimes. Well, that's a BIT strong but YKWIM.

So encouraging kids to do stuff because they know it's right is a good thing, and I like that about the book.

But he must have got farkin well behaved ones to begin with (and god, even as a social scientist, I know that you do get a personality with your little new babies and it isn't actually ALL what we/others do)...

[morningpaper]

Actually to be fair I tend to think it's useful in an educational setting

But did Alfie really BRING UP his children?

Because the one-on-one parenting situation is so much more IMMEDIATE and INTENSE and is largely about getting dinner finished so you can have a cup of tea

[Monkeybird]

argh! 14 pages on that thread, Slur. I can see I'm gonna have to do some conditional parenting to get enough time to read that

[ahundredtimes]

That's what I took from it too Monkey - and I think it's true. But I really dislike star charts and things anyway, I mean I always did, because I just think they're a bit demeaning and annoying somehow.

Take bits from there, and some from somewhere else and mix up with your common sense.

I have Consequences and rules and expectations. I also talk a lot about 'team work' to a degree both dcs and I find tiresome. But in the spirit of 'you want to, but you can't because there are five of us here, so you'll just have to put up and we'll do what you want later.'

We have consequences - punishments - for acts of violence, I think that's all. But there are quite a lot of acts of violence.

Sometimes works.

In the instance of the ham - I'd go for lovely, crazy HTT and say 'Wouldn't it be great if the fridge was full of ham? And if we could have a carpet of it, and then pick it up when we want to? And eat our carpet. And just be like the biggest most Hammy family of all time? [sigh] I'd love that. When we next go out to the shops let's buy some ham. But just now, all we've got is toast.'

[Monkeybird]

good idea 100x: 'hamming it up' (dya see what I did there?)

forever to be known as The Ham Solution

he blardy ate the toast in the end anyway... but I did get kicked a lot.

[ahundredtimes]

I love HTT. It makes me laugh, and it makes them laugh too, and so there's not so much kicking, and it gives me something else to say than 'eat the blardy toast you moron.'

[Shelvesandbiscuits]

One of the things I found compelling was the reminder that we don't really want children who are obedient, we want children who can work out the right answers for themselves, and so spending a lot of time explaining reasoning and treating them like reasonable people is all part of helping them to develop in that way. Also, the point that eventually you run out of consequences - what do you do when punishment is impossible and/or when they're 16? That's what I've always found vaguely unsatisfying about punishments and rewards. The idea the rewards also stop working also makes that unattractive. AK also makes the point that punishments focus children's attention on the effects of their actions on themselves rather than others - it becomes something that's happened to them - I can see how that happens.

Overall I am very persuaded by the idea that children can come to the right answer given good reasons. I think for us it's made us try hard to move towards keeping 'do this or ....' for the tiny percentage of times when we simply don't have the time or safety margin for reasoning, whereas before we'd probably have used that sort of line rather more. We spend a lot more time explaining things since I read this book, and it can be hard work, but it feels more intuitively right.