"How to talk so kdis will listenand listen so kids will talk" - anyone want to go trhough this book?

(631 Posts)
Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 16:58:45

and see hwat we think of it?

Its wuite heavy reading( not intellectually) just very close set type and lots of americna egs
But i reckon we cna do it.

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 16:59:21

lol at first line" i was a wonderful parent before i had kids"

NuttyMuffins Tue 01-May-07 16:59:58

Can't actually go through it yet as have only just this sec brought it off ebay, but will sit quietly in the corner and listen

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:00:30

ok fisrt idea

accept your kids feelings
( snowy day) kid - Im hot
parent " you arent hot its freezeing"

ie parent deying kdis feeling

CristinaTheAstonishing Tue 01-May-07 17:01:10

It's an excellent book. After much sniggering about it, even DH had to admit it was pretty good after reading "the important bits", as he put it.

PetronellaPinkPants Tue 01-May-07 17:01:47

So instead do you just rip all their clothes off and chuck them in a snow drift?

NuttyMuffins Tue 01-May-07 17:02:07

Hmm ok, have no prob with that bit, do usually accept most of what they say anyway.

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:02:36

so the summary is
1. listen with full attention
". acknowledge feelign wihta word " ooh" or " i see"
3. giev theri feeligns a name" so you are feeling a bit toasty?"

4. give them their wishes in fantasy " maybe we shoudl ask the wather to get even colder!"!"

PetronellaPinkPants Tue 01-May-07 17:03:50

sounds sensible

what next?

CristinaTheAstonishing Tue 01-May-07 17:03:51

Re: denying kid's feelings, once I read it there I realised I did it quite often, e.g. "I'm scared/bored/angry" would get a reply of "oh no you're not" and reasons why he c/wouldn't be. Now I tend to go along with "yes, I can see you're bored, I'd be too" etc.

NuttyMuffins Tue 01-May-07 17:04:12

See those bits, 'giving their feeling a name' and 'give them their wishes in a fantasy', are bits I wouldn't normally do, kids would think I was nuts LOL.

NuttyMuffins Tue 01-May-07 17:04:39

Will try though

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:04:43

bad parent eg here

kid "someone stile my pencil"
parent" are you sure oyu didnt lose it?"

kid " i didnt it was on my desk when i went to the loo"

parent " wel you always leave your things lying around i always tell you PUt it away and oyu never listen to me

kid" oh leave me alone"

parent ( loev this americanism) " dont eb fresh"

NuttyMuffins Tue 01-May-07 17:05:12

OMG that example was me

NuttyMuffins Tue 01-May-07 17:05:29

without the fresh bit lol.

NadineBaggott Tue 01-May-07 17:05:37

'give their feelings a name'

why can't you just listen to them and then tell them to do as they're told?

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:05:44

are you gonna read the whole book right now? think ill go grab my copy...
(have loads of these books but never time to read em)

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:05:54

int he red pencil good parent eg the parent simply slutesn saying ahaa, mm oh i see
til the kid works out that they wil ahevto hide their pencil whne they go for a piss

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:06:28

and baggy baggot move along we are tyring to be HELPFUL

PetronellaPinkPants Tue 01-May-07 17:06:34


krabbiepatty Tue 01-May-07 17:06:58

The problem I have is that the kid would not understand a word the Porcupine parent was saying...

NuttyMuffins Tue 01-May-07 17:07:01

Right ok, can do that.

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:07:10

the poarent listens to the kdi ranting abotu the farking pencil making nice noises
( i htink int he pic she is reading heat)

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:07:27

ok one more eg

RubyRioja Tue 01-May-07 17:08:07

Yes but kids talk such pants - how can I possibly respect that???

Well my kids do anyway <<Ruby lights fag, sips can of special brew and wonders when it all went wrong>>

PetronellaPinkPants Tue 01-May-07 17:08:51

what pencil?
nice noises??

NuttyMuffins Tue 01-May-07 17:08:52

It's not getting drawn into an argument that I need help with. Arguments with Dd1 can last hours.

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:09:16

this is hilarious

this is

" the turtle"

<drum roll>

kid" my trurtle is dead

mum " oh dont get so upset, dont cry its only a turtle"
kid " wah wah awah"

mum " stop that ill buy oyu another turtle" ( god she is HARD this one)
kid " i dont want another one wa hwa"

mum " oh fgs now you are being unresonable"

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:09:46

oh brb

NadineBaggott Tue 01-May-07 17:10:22

I like turtle mum

PetronellaPinkPants Tue 01-May-07 17:10:25

Surely no-one could be that heartless

I was more sympathetic than that when the caterpillar that dd had captured and put in a salad bowl with some leaves went missing (and she only noticed 4 days later)

NuttyMuffins Tue 01-May-07 17:10:35

ROFL, that is me too, but I would be ever so slightly more sympathetic.

PetronellaPinkPants Tue 01-May-07 17:10:49

can you pls repeat the pencil one
I don't understand

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:11:24

PMSL ruby!

krabbiepatty Tue 01-May-07 17:11:27

Porcupine, I made DP read thsi book and he went around for weeks saying:
"Yes I understand KP that you are feeling frustrated because I am still doing no housework."
"Yes, it must be very disappointing for you KP that I have left my dirty dishes in the lvingroom again".
Had to bin the book.

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:11:48

ok. got book. what page we on?

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:12:59

kp - you should have slapped him and told him not to be fresh

Boco Tue 01-May-07 17:13:23

And sold his turtle

PetronellaPinkPants Tue 01-May-07 17:14:00


NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:14:10

i like the writew a note tips... only mine cant read yet

saintmaybe Tue 01-May-07 17:14:17

Don't know where my copy is, but it's good to remember it.

I like that book

Is the sibling rivalry one by the same people?

krabbiepatty Tue 01-May-07 17:14:34

Genius, Nappies. "Fresh" is exactly the word for that behaviour...

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:14:41

dont think there was a pencil bit... hgang on lemme reread

RubyRioja Tue 01-May-07 17:14:50

But mine argue with me about me not allowing them to drive. Bear in mind dd was 2 at the time.

'I recognise your frustration that you are not allowed the autonomy, but the plus side is you have your own chauffeur and don't have to pay insurance'.

<<Ruby mutters under breath that her house is not a flippin' demoncracy and my word goes>>

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:15:26

well its one word kp....

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:16:07

rubes - youre not really in the right spirit here hun [winkj]

Mumpbump Tue 01-May-07 17:16:33

Krabbie - LOL!! That is exactly what my dh would do...

Boco Tue 01-May-07 17:16:40

The pencil bit is just about kid moans that someone stole his pencil while he was in the loo, - bad mum says 'told you not to leave it lying around etc'
Good mum says 'ahhh, oh, ok, right - lots of empathy - kid reaches conclusion on his own but feels listened to rather than chastised. I think?

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:17:11

ppp - porcy was just referring to the good parent example when she mentioned pencils. the pencil word itself is somewhat misleading. disregard it

jabberwocky Tue 01-May-07 17:17:31

I just started reading this book. I think, even tho some of the advice is clearly for older children, that it will do me good to practice in advance

Maybe I'll practice on dh...

Pruni Tue 01-May-07 17:17:40

Message withdrawn

PetronellaPinkPants Tue 01-May-07 17:17:43


NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:18:04

derrrr actually,m disregard me and listen to boco. she pays attention and is right

RubyRioja Tue 01-May-07 17:18:11

You are right NG - my word is law in my house - obviously they should listen - even if I am so shrill that only the neighbourhood dogs can hear me

saintmaybe Tue 01-May-07 17:18:18

Think the pencil thing is,

If dc's telling you about pencil, don't make it a reason to nag them (again0

just hear them

Does that make sense?

Boco Tue 01-May-07 17:18:39

Nappies you and me keep cross posting explanations to people - you always do it more succinctly and less waffly than me though!

saintmaybe Tue 01-May-07 17:19:24

oooh I type slo-o-ow

Boco you put it better than me

ArcticRoll Tue 01-May-07 17:19:41

Agree that it's a helpful book.
Not easy to read and the drawings are pretty awful.
Tons of useful stuff.
I realised that I was constantly denying dc their feelings and you hear it everywhere.
'Mum, I'm hungry'
'You can't be hungry, you've only just had lunch' etc.

sophable Tue 01-May-07 17:20:10

codpiece when did you get into this book. cristinatheastonishing put me onto it about 18 months ago and it transformed our parenting (and ds's behaviour). it is the most genius book ever and you've reminded me that I MUST go back and read it again and stop the rot which inevitably sets in.

bravo for this thread.

PetronellaPinkPants Tue 01-May-07 17:20:15

what do you do with children who procrastinate at bedtime

oh mummy one more kiss
one more cuddle

oh mummy I need to tel.l you something, I love you mummy

ad nauseum

Boco Tue 01-May-07 17:20:20

Well will you look at this lovely thread, see how we're all listening and validating each other!

RubyRioja Tue 01-May-07 17:21:57

PPP beat them and tell them you want to watch Coronation Street in peace

NuttyMuffins Tue 01-May-07 17:22:47

Bedtime is the only bit I do get right. Kids get into bed and stay in bed, full stop, no arguing or else LOL.

Mercy Tue 01-May-07 17:34:52

Glad you started this thread (cos I saw you mention it in GS's thread yesterday and asked if it was any good!)

I kind of see what the author is getting at but don't undertsand the thinking behind it.

Doesn't it lead to self-centred behaviour? I was particularly thinking of the it's hot, not it's freezing example. Why is it 'wrong' to point out that they are factually incorrect? Or is to do with what they say they are feeling even though it can't possibly be true? [dense emoticon]

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:42:07

boco - you are my current fave mner. we seem to be in agreement a lot and i like people who agree with me and, you said it much better than i on this occasion at least!!

i have lost the pwer to think intelligently for thew time being b/c i have been surviving all day on nervous tension and chocolate andf have just run out of both and fallen off the sugar cliff with a bang. so thats me out of this convo for a while!

krabbiepatty Tue 01-May-07 17:43:24

KP: Yes DP, I understand it's frustrating for you to have to pick up your own socks. Imagine how much fun it would be if you lived in socks-picking-up-themselves-world? Wouldn't that be great?
KP's DP: Yeah!
KP: And imagine if all the dishes got into the dishwasher by themelves! How fantastic would that be?
KP's DP: Wow, Great!
KP; Well they don't! FEEL MY PAIN!!!

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:43:28

well kdis do tlak a lot of boollox ( do otu htink that cna be the title of my new book - " how to tlak bollocks just liek your kids"

ok mate has gone
i tried it out wiht her day fom hell story
she laughed when i did hte aha humm oh yes bit

so fell at first hurdle

try otut he lsitenign hting wiht a kid

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:43:47

adn NG I lol at oyur posts

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:44:23

she and i agreed that the next stage " singel weord" IS GOOD

have 2 seconds befoer beavers

RubyRioja Tue 01-May-07 17:45:31

How can you even type 'beavers' without smirking?

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:46:19

what the hell is beavers???

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:46:41

2 mins b4 ytour beaver does what exactly?

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:47:05

also another tip is hold off giving advice

" mum i am tired"
mum "well gonad lie down then"

thats is wrong

yu need to listen "ahah"

adn verbalise "you must feel bad"

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:47:16

beaver cubs

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:47:34

or beavoirs

in our hosue

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:47:48

i think 'how to talk bollox like your kids' would sell... mind you - we all do already dont we?

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 17:48:26

thats the end of the dealign wiht kdis feelings chapter

NuttyMuffins Tue 01-May-07 17:48:59

God i will find this hard, I do everything that your bad examples do.

RubyRioja Tue 01-May-07 17:49:33

brownies is far more respectable.

So the correct response to

'I'm tired'

is not

'well stay in bed when I put you there then. I'm knackered becuase I put you to bed 27 times last night. AND I am near my overdraft limit and your Dad wants to try viagra - try that for making you tired'???

I would hasten to add this is a hypothetical example and Mr Rioja is is no need of viagra

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:49:53

i take it tahats some kind of kids group thing. like brownies or summat (we never did 'joining whan i was little. my mum offered to get me in the cubs with my big bro but i declined to be a cubs suffragette - woulda been shit being hated for being the only girl)

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:51:28

all these tips are hard. goes against all conditioning and habit doesnt it.... i feel like giving myself a report; must try harder

NuttyMuffins Tue 01-May-07 17:52:24

LOL NG, exactly.

Can just see the kids saying something and me saying 'ohh erm, hang on whilst I check the book'

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:52:30

so is 'single word' int he next chapter?

(why mi asking you i have the book here derr)

Blandmum Tue 01-May-07 17:52:42

What if they really do lose the frigging pencil though?

dd talks utter crap on times.

Call from house from dh, 'Youve forgotten your bag dd'

dd' It must have fallen out of the back of the car'

Me, 'What, back up the path and through the front door?'

What should I have said?

'Gee I guess it must have!'


NadineBaggott Tue 01-May-07 17:53:29

lol mb

did dd respond 'don't get fresh'

Boco Tue 01-May-07 17:53:56

Just spent ages wondering what cod meant by GONAD GET BOOK. Is that to do with the bollocks?

Ta NG, was very funny that food thread yesterday, had no idea what side i was on or who i was arguing with! ( well your side obviously as you were the only one i understood!)

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:54:20

my mum smirks and scoffs at my constructive parenting style. only coz shes jealous coz im better than she was
actually she says shes well impressed. but she still smirks when i do it. esp when it dunt work and the kid wins the exchange

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 17:57:23

<snigger> at all of you

boco i enjoyed being arsey on that thread was great way to vent after v frustrating day and you made it fun too!

mb - youre notsupposeed to have conversations w your dc that dont fit the pattern in the book - jeez, wheres the discipline, eh? no wonder your kids are scatty

Boco Tue 01-May-07 17:57:59

Mercy - what you said about self centred behaviour - the example was that if the kid says they feel hot when its a snowy day, - they're not necessarily wrong, they may well feel hot. It's about respecting what they're saying about themselves.

I liked that example. If i ever say i'm cold my dp says 'you can't be, it's boiling' or if i say i'm hot he says 'you can't be it's freezing'.


Blandmum Tue 01-May-07 18:01:23

So Am I really supposed to belive the Spotty Herberts when they tell me that they can't find the answer to question 1, when I know it is in the first paragraph?

'I can't find the question to number 1 miss'

'tell me how that makes you feel?' 'Do you wish that all the answers just flew into your head?'

Yup, I can see that working

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 18:03:03

mercy - i guess in that eg it wouldnt hurt to stop before contradicting and think its possible they are not talking bollox. they could be not well or something i spose. would saying 'really? i find that surprising coz its snowing outside and i feel really cold...' be reasonable?

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 18:13:20

dh to me
"when is beavers
" me " 6 - 7pm"
dh " are you sure"

me ( mroe recnelty)
" no i make this up to test you"

are you sure drives me NUTS

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 18:14:35

mb no you are crap
you dont ask them how they feel
you suggest a feeling

ok cods mate
" had a shite day at work am snowed under and dh is back late"

cod( aha hmm




Codsmate looks at her oddly

" are oyu feelign alright?

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 18:15:06

lol but your kdis wont say that as they dont REALLy care how you are as long as you provide food and tv remote control

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 18:16:44

NUTTY (as its HSe we are trying to help but secretyl we all know we ar withces)

how is htis sounding so far

Blandmum Tue 01-May-07 18:18:38

'I can't find the answer to Q1 Miss'

'I guess that must make you feel farking stupid then?'

Nope, I don't think I'm getting into this

NadineBaggott Tue 01-May-07 18:19:20

dh hates 'I guess'

are they really guessing he says

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 18:20:02

you msut feel frustrated

only after you have ahhed and ahemed
was os glad to read sophable liked the book

Malaleche Tue 01-May-07 18:20:54


Blandmum Tue 01-May-07 18:21:26

'Ohh, ahh' pulls sympathetic face, 'You must feel very fr.....arking stupid!'

Nope, can't make myself do it

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 18:24:16

woicked withc

piglit Tue 01-May-07 18:24:25

Stop it! This is the funniest thing ever and I can't stop laughing. I have tears running down my face and I can hear dh's car in the drive. What do I tell him when he walks in and I'm howling like a banshee and my eye make up is half way down my face?

Blandmum Tue 01-May-07 18:24:50

Wicked witch?????

C'est Moi!

Fillyjonk Tue 01-May-07 18:25:24

oh crap

have done this style of parenting for years

now realise i am wet and probably need supernanny

am fed up with acknowleging feelings of toddlers, its arduous and a winding cul de sac

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 18:25:39

guess you are feelign kinda lousy

floowed by " dont get fresh"

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 18:26:12

FJ this is only chapter one!!!
chapter tow tomorrow ight
am out all day tomorrow

unless NG finds her book

piglit Tue 01-May-07 18:26:41

Loving that don't get fresh thing. Will try it out on random people.

Fillyjonk Tue 01-May-07 18:27:17

and also, am i correct in saying that acc to the book all you see to say is "ah"?

Blandmum Tue 01-May-07 18:27:50

And can I just say that I PMSL over cods juxtaposition I'll just gonad get book and beavers


Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 18:32:57

lol must go and lok busy
dh on way home

Fillyjonk Tue 01-May-07 18:33:30

see im not sure my kids need encouragement to talk

that put me off book a bit

what, it makes them talk MORE?

Boco Tue 01-May-07 18:35:16

Cod was wondering if you type the way you talk?

I imagine that you do, you spot your friend in the gym and say 'arf! vi'e sjut bin wisming ithne farkin opplo, won mi gnoggin ot av he a ckiqu og on teh datre liml, ese ouy taler!

Pixiefish Tue 01-May-07 18:35:39

MB- PMSL at imagining you with a class of 15 year olds calling them 'farkin stoooooopid'

Also ROFL at the Gonads and the beavers

Blandmum Tue 01-May-07 18:41:21

bfore the massed ranks of MN rise up with flaming torches to tar and feather me I wouldn't actually say that.

I will confess to thinking it on times.....not when they really can't do something , but rather when they can't be arsed to do something.

MassedRanks Tue 01-May-07 18:58:06

Yoo hoo! We're heeere!

So, how do you want to do this MB, a total tar coating with brushes, or shall we hurl the tar? The feathers ARE freerange organic duck and goose.

Shall we make a start?

Blandmum Tue 01-May-07 19:01:30

Before you do can I give you an example

The A level student who told me he didn't know how to divide by 10??????!!!!!!!

Ladies, I rest my case!

Tamum Tue 01-May-07 19:14:02

God what an excellent thread. I can see that you are feeling frustrated by your pupils' behaviour mb. How does it make you feel?

I especially like the title of cod's new book.

Blandmum Tue 01-May-07 19:15:23


Rather as I did when another sixth form student (and remember this actually year 12) told me that the sun was alive!

[cries weakly emoticon needed]

Tamum Tue 01-May-07 19:18:07

The correct response, clearly would have been "that's right, so it is!! And so are the stars!!"

Lol at farking angry

Blandmum Tue 01-May-07 19:22:32

'wouldn't it be interesting if they were' [simpers]

MegaLegs Tue 01-May-07 19:25:14

Boco - you made me larf!!

Marina Tue 01-May-07 19:43:45

Have just nearly choked on tea reading about the Yr 12 boy who said the sun was alive
Thanks for reviving the joys of HTTSKWL cod, I am getting a lovely warm flashback to working through this brilliant book.
I think its cheap and nasty presentation with no pictures of norks or Miriam Stoppared make it curiously appealing to men. It's the only parenting book my dh has ever read too cristina.
Although as mine doesn't want both wrists broken he has never gotten fresh with me about it krabbie

Malaleche Tue 01-May-07 20:26:09

So, is that the discussion over then?
Can we have a proper serious one now about Toxic Childhood by Sue Palmer (we could do a chapter a week), or Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn?
Any takers?

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 20:39:17

restarts tomorrow
wiht chapter 2

( am at work in day)

Mercy Tue 01-May-07 20:41:16

Don't know Malaleche. I still don't understand if the book is worth reading or not.

From waht I've read on this thread, I think the answer is NO.

Tell me about Toxic Childhood, then

NadineBaggott Tue 01-May-07 20:51:12

"The A level student who told me he didn't know how to divide by 10??????!!!!!!! "

that's just TOO shocking

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 20:54:18

im not that shocked.
my education didnt include:
times tables
or mental arithmetic

coz theyre old fashioned

GiantSquirrelSpotter Tue 01-May-07 20:59:36

I couldn't read it
it was just so dull and heavy-going
i felt guilty, but gave up

Malaleche Tue 01-May-07 21:00:08

Mercy - 'How to talk...' is worth a read but you have to re-phrase everything if you're not American
have to go but will be bck with info on Toxic Chldhod or you culd just look for the thread i started on it recently...

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 21:00:55

oh mercy boo
its so good

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 21:01:25

no toxic choldhood jsut oudsn liek one bog built trip
not lie how to which alt least give soem ideas

Porcupine Tue 01-May-07 21:01:31

guilt trip

NadineBaggott Tue 01-May-07 21:02:16

doesn't anyone here trust themselves to do a good job?

MaloryTowers Tue 01-May-07 21:02:28


you're not turning into a <<<whispers>>>.

yoghurt knitter are you???


puddle Tue 01-May-07 21:05:18

Mercy it's a great book.

I have just dug it out again as I have completly lost my knack of dealing with ds and have been using the techniques today v successfully - no screaming banshee bedtime for the first time in 5 (count 'em) days.

ds : here's a party invitation from Annoying Friend

me: <about to drink lovely latte> oh lovely. Oh ds, it's the same weekend as (massive long-arranged camping thing with loads of people). What a shame

ds: oh I have to go to annoying friends party! I don't want to go camping thing. I hate camping...blah blah

me: You must be so disappointed

dsstarting to get v cross) I hate camping I must go to annoying friends party yada yada yada

me: Darling I can see you are really upset about this <desperate to avert meltdown and drink now lukewarm latte>

Ds: I am NOT upset I am really really cross yada yada <brightens> look I can see that woman's bottom she has come out of the loo with her skirt tucked in it....<wanders off to snigger with best mate>

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 21:26:05

top marks
well done

NappiesGalore Tue 01-May-07 21:28:34

toxic childhood??? based on the title alone, i am not interested. does it just list all the ways you xcan fuck them up? coz frankly, that i do trust myself to do wiuthout any help...

yes nadine, i do trust myself. to do a good job by reading stuff like this and trying to do a better job than i would otherwise.
personally, i am not preprogramed to be a perfect mother. i have to work at it

Fillyjonk Wed 02-May-07 06:26:55

actually there is one often missed plus point to book

the techniques are quite useful if you want to pretend to care but don't really. you can be singing away in your head, on an "ahh, I see" loop.

Fillyjonk Wed 02-May-07 06:27:46

oh no ng far more to book than THAT

its all about how you mustn't let them watch ANY tv or...do lots of things...

actually haven't read the book but did speak once to someone who nearly did

babygrand Wed 02-May-07 06:49:18

I bought this book when someone on MN recommended it about 6 months ago. When it arrived I flicked through it and decided I didn't fancy reading it as I thought it looked rubbish. Perhaps I need to give it a second try.

Blandmum Wed 02-May-07 07:15:38

I'm getting ready to use these stratagies in school today

'I don't want to do that work'
'Ahhh, You must be feeling really lazy today'

' I haven't done my homework'
'wouldn't it be great if all your homework just magically did itself......like that time you just dowloaded it from an internet site'

REally good plan!

Porcupine Wed 02-May-07 07:37:19

i do feel this htread is turning a little scathing (!) for those who really wanted to change the ways they talk ot their kids.

am only trying ot help!

Blandmum Wed 02-May-07 07:40:05

Can you see a tongue anywhere near my cheek????

Porcupine Wed 02-May-07 07:42:06

Hmm it had better stay there mate

piglit Wed 02-May-07 07:48:00

At what age do children pick up on sarcasm? I tried some of this on dh last night when he was telling me about some terrible meeting and after agreeing with him all along and saying "that must have been awful" (and nodding my head like one of those dogs you get in the back of cars)he asked me if I was being sarcastic. Ooops.

MB - very much looking forward to hearing all about your day at school.

Fillyjonk Wed 02-May-07 07:52:31

nonono cod, its very very helpful

i needed a laugh this morning...

DS1 has been understanding sarcasm from at least the age of five.

Helpfully, he defines it as 'talking like daddy' .

I do have to get this book, but I also fear DH would do as kp's DH has ... at least I have 'don't be fresh' as a retort.

Porcupine Wed 02-May-07 08:50:37

ok have used laready
ds2s bederrom
ds2 come adn put oyr pjs away make oyur bed nad hang up your dressing gown"
ignroed three itmes

" i can see clothes all oevr the florr"

Pruni Wed 02-May-07 08:59:28

Message withdrawn

climbingwalls Wed 02-May-07 09:28:17

Just PMSL at this, Cod thank you for starting this thread!

I will be back tonight for chapter two!

CristinaTheAstonishing Wed 02-May-07 09:47:58

I find that statement of facts ("clothes on the floor") better - at least for me - than constant nagging (can nagging be anything but contsant?!).

My book is a few years old but I didn't find the graphics or typeset ugly or difficult to read. You should try Engelmann's "Teach your child to read in 100 easy lessons" for that. (Another book with massive potential for irritation but v good.)

CristinaTheAstonishing Wed 02-May-07 09:48:35

So what does "being fresh" mean? I thought it meant don't be like a Freshman, so perhaps immature.

NotanOtter Wed 02-May-07 09:54:21

fresh means 'lippy' 'rude' 'obtuse'

CristinaTheAstonishing Wed 02-May-07 09:55:33

Oh, thanks. So many people I could use it with then.

NotanOtter Wed 02-May-07 09:57:33

my 3 eldest children are very 'fresh' atm! sounds a bit too nice!!

Mercy Wed 02-May-07 09:58:12

OK, have re-read and get the 'feelings' bit now! I think I do this with dd anyway, but it's MUCH harder with ds who is 3.2 and really doesn't listen to anything I say. I don't remember dd being so negative at his age which is why I'm finding him hard work atm.

Next chapter?

CristinaTheAstonishing Wed 02-May-07 10:06:46

I went to a workshop once where we discussed whether it's a good idea to give children the language for some of their feelings and whether it wasn't putting (negative) ideas into their heads.

oliveoil Wed 02-May-07 10:07:43

I love the word obtuse

<<makes notes to use it later and baffle 4 and 2 year old>>

florenceuk Wed 02-May-07 10:08:30

I love this thread! MB, we await your report with interest!

piglit Wed 02-May-07 10:10:09

I asked ds1 (2.6) to tidy up his toys this morning. He looked at me, sighed and said "Mummy, I'm really not happy at all." WTF did that come from? Oh well, I suppose it's better than a tantrum.

Blandmum Wed 02-May-07 10:23:53

Oliveoil....have used Obtuse with sixth formers. They don't know what it means either

Zog Wed 02-May-07 10:49:56

Top thread, thanks cod. Was only thinking yesterday that I really need to re-read this book. When I start to remind myself of Charlie Brown's teacher in Peanuts, I know it's time for a refresher

I think the point of chapter one is to show you how bl**dy annoying it is when someone constantly denies your feelings e.g. try and imagine how you would feel if your DH/DP said to you some of the things you say to your kids - see hungry/cold examples further down.

MB, I think Year 12's might be a little <ahem> fresh to try this approach on

Porcupine Wed 02-May-07 13:28:37

am back early
not enough criminals
may go and read next chapter in sun

krabbiepatty Wed 02-May-07 13:31:21

Despite my facetiousness earlier this thread has prompted me and DP to revive techniques, so ta, porcupine.
And not just on each other...

Porcupine Wed 02-May-07 13:32:55

any resident of the krysty krab is a mate of min
( part fom mb who may well eb a chum bucket regular)

Porcupine Wed 02-May-07 13:35:03

oi KP what have oyu done

krabbiepatty Wed 02-May-07 13:36:41

hehe, porcy
Sad moment in, ahem, MaccyDs the other day:
Me (voice squeaking slightly with excitement): Oh look, boys, Spongebob happy meals are coming!
Cue boys looking puzzled over their Mcnuggets...
If I ever own a cafe, I will call it the Krusty Krab...

krabbiepatty Wed 02-May-07 13:39:19

Oh from the book (thinks hard). I stopped DP last night gpoing into a rant about "why don't you stop being silly and get in the bath?" and turned it into a sort of "I understand it's very funny to put your brother's pullup on your head and run around heehawing in a loud voice but what do you think we should do about the fact you smell?" type session...

Porcupine Wed 02-May-07 13:40:02


re maccy ds
me too

oliveoil Wed 02-May-07 14:03:57

does this book work on horrible toddlers aged nearly 3?

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:04:03


oliveoil Wed 02-May-07 14:05:26


PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:08:57

right is ANYone followign htis or am i talkign to moi meem?

Mercy Wed 02-May-07 14:10:50

Yes, we're waiting for chapter 2 and advice on how to deal with horrible 3 year olds.

oliveoil Wed 02-May-07 14:11:46

mine is awful, sad but true

phase phase phase phase phase

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:12:03

ok bakc in a few mins

Pollyanna Wed 02-May-07 14:12:34

I really like this book too (well not like exactly, but find it useful ) - I use the bit where (I think) you "give them their wishes in fantasy" (sic) - so if they want something that you just haven't got and are whining on and on about it, you say something like "I wish I could just magic the [whatever] here" . It does work quite well

(of course if you're tired you just snap "no you can't have the sodding [whatever] stop whinging" )

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:19:24

yes ds3 was wingeing on abotu " i dont want to go to nursery" today
i said "I know" and he shut up

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:21:26

_-------------------------------chapter 2 " enagagin cooperation"------------------------

bundle Wed 02-May-07 14:22:12

sounds pants

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:23:18

opk in summary chapter 2 is:

describe hwat you see

give information

say it with a word

talk abotu your feelings

AND/or us ea note

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:27:26

so milk left out in kitchen
ratherhtan going " oh god oyu always leave the milk out hwne will oyu ever put it away i am thjeonly perosn itn his housewho ever tidies up - its all your fatehrs fault"

you say "i can see milk on the table" ( describing)
" milk goes off when its left out" ( give info so kid sees htere is method in madness)

still no action??

then dont letcure ( esp for teens as they swithc off or just hate you)

£. ONE WORD - " oi miranda - MILK"

then 4 describe feelings " thats better" or " i get so mad when i say thing soevr and over again" ( kdi sees their bhaviour impacts on you)

5 if htis dosn twork oyu can use a not
so say kids turn tv on int he mornings wihtout getting ressed fro shcool or doing hteir school bag - put a post it note ont he tv saying" do not turn me on till you have done xyz"

another cute one int he book is this

"notice - story time tonight at 7pm. all kdis hwoare in pjs wiht teeth brushed are invited love "mommy" "

fishie Wed 02-May-07 14:27:38

say what with a word?

does it work on pre-talking toddlers?

Tommy Wed 02-May-07 14:28:14

was just logging on to go to Aamzon to look for this book! I think will get it after redaing this!

Conversation the other day here;

Me: DS1 - you've woken DS3 now - he'll be crying all the time until we go to school
DS1: Yes but daddy said "Well done" when I did that.

(note - tell DH that sarcasm does not work on 5 year olds.....)

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:28:18

prob not no

you cna also use this if you prefer to clla ourself mummy
but mommy is fine

fishie Wed 02-May-07 14:28:47

shit i think dp must have read this book it sounds very like his reaction to my kitchen messes.

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:29:07

adnt he decribign thing has for younger kids certianly the air of a game
i did it wiht ds2 this mornign and he raced upstairs to put his clohtes away

Enid Wed 02-May-07 14:34:55

ooh ooh I have it in my downsairs loo

and I think it is great

I do the describeing back thing to the dds and it feels odd byt really really works

oliveoil Wed 02-May-07 14:35:59

righty ho

amazon then yes?

I need that sensitive one as well

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:42:56

ta enid

i have the highly sensitive child book i think olive if you want it?

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:44:09

pr me ol matye

hello you

trying to distract myself on your humourous thread

Enid Wed 02-May-07 14:45:43

this is the convo dd1 and I had yesterday:

dd1 <in deep misery> 'i had a bad day today'
enid 'you had a bad day today'
dd1 'miss spiker was mean to me'
enid 'miss spiker wasmean to you'
dd1 'she said I threw a pencil at harry and I didnt!'
enid 'she said you threw a pencil at harry'
<i know i know it sounds weiredly robotic>
dd1 'yes! and I didnt. well I didnt MEAN to'
enid 'you didnt mean to'
dd1 <cheerful>'no. I'll have to think next time before I throw something'
enid 'you'll have to think next time'
dd1 'I love you mummy'
enid 'Ilove you too'

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:46:36

OMG text book

Enid Wed 02-May-07 14:47:20

i nkow so pleasing

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:47:51

have read on to chapter three and our adn am rather smug that i am doing a lot fo what it wasy alaready

oliveoil Wed 02-May-07 14:50:15

Have just ordered it porc, and threw in a 'free' book for me to qualify for free postage

do you have a sensitive child? which one?

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 14:50:45

god not me.
no all mine fine.

oliveoil Wed 02-May-07 14:51:41

fine eh



oliveoil Wed 02-May-07 14:52:22

oh I am getting all the P's confused

pecka I meant

did you find it any good?

Enid Wed 02-May-07 14:52:24

the senstive child book is good

although they do bang on about them being undiscovered geniouses not dd1 obv

oliveoil Wed 02-May-07 14:53:06

I will underline those bits for dh who thinks I analyse too much

Pollyanna Wed 02-May-07 14:53:07

I have said before "I see you have left your dirty pants on the bedroom floor" to ds.

(though I often follow it with "do you think there are fairies who come and clear them up? )

I have tried this and it works sometimes, but it does depend on me not being tired and screeching instead.

I try to work from home on a Mondays which usually ends up with me on my mobile in the office, sitting at my PC with one leg against the door, trying to keep out 2 screaming toddlers who choose the minute my mobile rings to scream for attention.

It's a mystery one minute their sitting nicely playing, as soon as my mobile rings OMG chaos regins.

Read the book and made a sign saying Shhh Mummy on the phone. Explained that when the sign goes up, they must get out of the office and be quite.

Absolytely frigging amazing, now when the phone rings ds(3) runs to get the sign, sticks it on the door, draggin ds(18mths) behind him!!!

Wouldn't beleive it until I tried it!!

An amazing book.

Mercy Wed 02-May-07 15:59:17

Ok, I'm nearly convinced, I can certainly see it would work with dd.

dd can read the notes to ds.

Will see if the describing thing will stop ds throwing stones and wacking things with sticks And if it will get him to eat properly

Mercy Wed 02-May-07 16:00:26

RTL - forgot to say, great idea about the note for when you're on the phone!

climbingwalls Wed 02-May-07 16:30:00

RedTartanLass- I love the idea of the sign for when you're on the phone and think I might just try that! Amazing how they know exactly when we need them to be quiet and choose that moment to demand our full attention!

bundle Wed 02-May-07 16:32:28

why would anyone feel smug about sounding like a text book? ffs it's almostas bad as blw meaning you have to jetison all the spoons in the house

CristinaTheAstonishing Wed 02-May-07 16:37:42

Who's sounding smug? Better than yelling and nagging, at any rate.

Zog Wed 02-May-07 16:50:01

bundle? Are you feeling OK?

CristinaTheAstonishing Wed 02-May-07 16:51:41

Watch it, she might get fresh

bundle Wed 02-May-07 17:23:07

By PeterAndreFanCLub on Wed 02-May-07 14:47:51
have read on to chapter three and our adn am rather smug that i am doing a lot fo what it wasy alaready

I was feeling fine, till I read that

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 17:24:39

only cos we had day of hlel yest
farking ds1 lied twice abotu a cheque he had "takne" to school - but in reality has no idea where it is.
he is so HOPELESS at self organisation

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 17:26:10

anwyay so i ranted in a totalyl NOT text book manner
stalked off to read book

and in chapter about 6 it says

" give them a awy to show you they wnat ot make up"
and ds1 layed the table in a really tidy ans sweet way - wiht ice in the water and straws and all

NadineBaggott Wed 02-May-07 17:29:43

yeah! but he did it without reading the book!

(and after you'd ranted)

so the moral is - forget the fecking book!

bundle Wed 02-May-07 17:29:49

good to non-text book behaviour, I applaud it, there should be more of it. individuality is the order of the day cod (sorry about the cheque)

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 17:30:42

yes but i was feelign pleased that i had worked that out A LONE. ;(
lordy if yOu dont liek it nadine that's fine!

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 17:31:42



" ive handed it in"
have you really?


oh fgs

NadineBaggott Wed 02-May-07 17:32:33

well no, it's not my cup of tea but I do like commenting on it

I'm sure it has lots of good points <She says keeping on the right side of Peter>

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 17:32:54

hmm peter thinkign of tellign jordan abotu you.

NadineBaggott Wed 02-May-07 17:33:57

ds1 sounds fab, a proper boy.

you make your convos sound so funny!

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 17:35:26

ds1 is a sweetheart tbh. very biddable, totalyl open,enthusastic, but so chaotic
ds2 is much mroe a closed book, adna a creep.( dos very well with teachers hwo all love him)adn other kdis love him but is moody.



NadineBaggott Wed 02-May-07 17:37:21

OMG - sounds just like the dgs's in the same order

NadineBaggott Wed 02-May-07 17:38:05

oh my that's really wierd

saintmaybe Wed 02-May-07 17:38:45

And if you keep practising it

First you sound like the book and your dcs laugh at you

Then you find your own way of saying it

Then you all get used to this new way of being with each other and you don't need to say as much, eg, a sympathetic nod when ds1's telling me about his day is sometimes enough now cos he knows I usually do the 'that sounds really frustrating' thing and I'm better at listening than I used to be

At least thats what I'm holding out for; sometimes it's like that

It is worth trying though, I need reminding to get off his case sometimes and it's good to have a formula to use while you're practising

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 17:38:52


PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 17:39:19

Saint maybe do you use it?

saintmaybe Wed 02-May-07 17:45:19

Read it a couple of years ago and the really similar sibling one. Can't find it; prob forced some poor unwilling friend to borrow it, but I try to use that way of talking all the time

My dcs are not the kind of people who respond well to 'do what i say, not what i do'

and neither am i, so fair enough

but they really do respond like beautiful little desert plants when it rains to a bit of respect and listening

so it works for me

saintmaybe Wed 02-May-07 17:46:32

and it doesn't come naturally to me; I'm very bossy

saintmaybe Wed 02-May-07 17:50:40

and must go as now the appropriate response to them is 'you must be re-eally hungry'

climbingwalls Wed 02-May-07 18:32:55

I had this convo with DS on our way home today:

DS "are we going to Tesco?"

me "no we're going home"

DS "but I waaaaannnnttt to go to TESCOS!!!"

me "I understand that but we're going home".

DS doesn't mention it again.

climbingwalls Wed 02-May-07 18:36:32

rewind to two weeks ago, I've had a stressful day, DS is grumpy, we're on our way home:

DS "are we going to Tesco?"

me"no we're going home"

DS 2but I waaannnt to go to TESCO!!!!"

me "well we're not going to TESCO, we're going home"

DS (with an increasingly whiny voice) "but I want to go to TESCO!!"

me "well we're not GOING"

ds "yes we are, I'll make you go"

me "no we're not you can't make me"

ds"I'll be very cross with you if you don't take me"

me "I'll be cross with you if you mention it again"

etc etc
you get the picture.

I prefer the opther way! much less stressful all round, now just have to remember to use it...

Oblomov Wed 02-May-07 18:38:09

I need a sign. Mummy on mumsnett.
Also - Mummy needs space.
Ds said to me today. No mummy, I need space.
Where did that come from ??????!!!

Oblomov Wed 02-May-07 18:39:44

I have the tesco thing, almost everynight, climbingwalls. And I don't understand why

Wotzsaname Wed 02-May-07 18:44:29

does it say anything about choices?

eg: You can go outside to play (cause you are annoying me)
or help me with the washing up and all the other mundane things I have to get through?

Mercy Wed 02-May-07 18:44:51

my ds has a thing for sainsbury's and also cafes

climbingwalls Wed 02-May-07 18:45:52

lol I have got the "I just need some space" from DS too!

and the classic "sorry I didn't listen to you before mummy, I'm just a bit stressed"!! (the excuse I often find myself using )

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 19:50:01

welldont saintmaybe and slimbing walsl
i wonder if tis only working as we are outfoxing htem by behaving atypically?

Whoooosh Wed 02-May-07 19:51:54

Does it tell you how to deal with a complete meltdown with a two year old at a supermarket checkout?
Can't believe the looks I got at the weekend-I tried everything and she still screamed her head off

bakedpotato Wed 02-May-07 20:01:41

I just implemented some techniques borrowed from this thread at what was promising to be a very fractious/overtired bathtime/bedtime.
Crikey, it worked!

It felt a bit like pretending to be a good parent, which doesn't come easily. And it's exhausting, listening. As is being sympathetic when what you really want to do is stamp your foot.
But the 'pretending' route is probably far less stressful than the alternative.

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 20:07:25


Whoooosh Wed 02-May-07 20:10:06

<<<whoooosh taps impatiently for solution to meltdown>>>

colditz Wed 02-May-07 20:10:32

One thing my dad used to do with us (amongst the many bad things lol) was when we nags and whined for stuff, he would pretend to be Sooty and say "Izzy Whizzy let's get busy....Ta-daaaahhh! Nope, it didn't work, sorry"

It kind of showed us that it just wasn't happening, better than saying "I said NO and if you ask me again I'll smack your backside!"

MrsBadger Wed 02-May-07 20:11:25

Whoosh what was reason for meltdown?
want sweets? bored and want to go home? miscellanous mummy being mean?

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 20:12:35

i think 2 year solds scoot uner the realms of this book
they are after all utter freaks

Whoooosh Wed 02-May-07 20:14:33

Mrs B-there seemed to be no reason-but I guess just got bored/uncomfortable being sat in a trolley-guess I would too.Just couldn't risk letting her out though as God only knows where she would have ended up.

Cod-think you have hit the nail on the head

filthymindedvixen Wed 02-May-07 20:20:43

I missed this thread before which is sad as I have just finished this book.

Trouble is my memory is so crap I keep recognising scenario and thinking ''ooohh, now, I know what I'm supposed to say now...shit, WTF is it I'm supposed to say..?''
Meanwhile poor child had wandered off dolefully to share his strife or ire with goldfish who is a better listenrer and has better memory!

singersgirl Wed 02-May-07 20:39:05

Tee hee. At swimming today DS1 (8) said, "I'm hungry. Have you got any snacks?". I started to say, "You can't possibly be hungry - you've just had two huge bowls of cereal", but, mindful of this thread, stopped at the "You..." and started again with "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't bring any snacks. That's a shame. You'll have to wait until we get home."

Then he started moaning on about how he didn't want eggs for tea. So I said "You must feel disappointed it's not one of your favourite meals".

But I sound so ...... cheesy.

RubyRioja Wed 02-May-07 21:02:22

Hmm read some good things here last night so though I would be open minded and try it myself...

Pick up from school

'can we go to play at x's house'
'not today, we have ballet class and x is going out'
'but I want to do to x's'
'I understand you want to go to x's, but is it ballet today and x is going out'
'you never let me do anything. You are evil'
dd seethes all the way to ballet.

Anyone willing to swap?

filthymindedvixen Wed 02-May-07 21:12:05

PMSL, yes, they seemed to have missed out that chapter!

climbingwalls Wed 02-May-07 21:46:27

Right, DS was in bed at 7, had story, cuddles yadda yadda...

He has only just fallen asleep at 9:30 after numerous excuses to get out of bed, need my attention, all of which I respond with an mmmm or uha and put him back in bed...

After an hour of this he comes downstairs, refuses to go back up, I threaten removal of toy, he doesn't go up so toy conviscated for two days, he slams his bedroom door...this happens three times, last time resulting in me marching him to bed, shouting loudly that "IT'S BEDTIME NOW YOU HAVE TO STAY IN YOUR BED IF YOU GET OUT ONE MORE TIME I'LL BE VERY CROSS" que quivering lip and crying...but the shouting worked and I haven't seen him since.

So where the hell did I go wrong??? was trying to think how to handle the situation as a good parent, but in the end had meltdown anyway!! oh well, you win some you lose some

what should I try next time??

Malaleche Wed 02-May-07 21:54:56

Yes, the techniques in this book do work and yes they work really well at first because you are 'behaving atypically'....

DD1 i want such and such
me: yes i can understand you would really like such and such but we're not going to have it now
DD! but i want it
me:imagine if you could have such and such whenever you wanted
DD1 but i want it now

oh feck off

Malaleche Wed 02-May-07 21:57:56

and i wont have people speaking badly of 'Toxic Childhood' when they havent even read it. Yes, it is a horrible title i agree. But it does give lots of solutions to the problems it talks about.....so is anyone going to read it?

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 22:08:52

By RubyRioja on Wed 02-May-07 21:02:22

Pick up from school

'can we go to play at x's house'
'not today, we have ballet class and x is going out'
'but I want to do to x's'
'I understand you want to go to x's, i cnatbe in tow places at the same time( you missed out he fantay bit here)
'you never let me do anything. You are evil'
BOYS DONT DO THIS - As a teacher we were taught girsl often come bakc wiht a peronalised result

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 22:09:48

climbin walsl
i htink chapter one was dealing wiht feeligns which your ds wasnt really
so we will moev on tot hat.
mayeb reread my posts from today - the descreibe ones

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 22:10:49

no lalaehce its "i want a bratz dolL"

you " aha hmm"
i really want it

i hear that you want it which one woudl you haev

the tarty one

if iw as a girl id haev my WHOLE room bratzy


RubyRioja Wed 02-May-07 22:11:21

Oh yes - my dds can create a wide range of personalised insults , but Cod - you were a teacher?????????? Ruby's mind boggles and thought. No discipline issues in that school I'll wager !

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 22:13:36

yes iw as
i preferred teachign the really naughty boys
my best ever achievemtn was fro paul griffiths hwo has to this day no other qualification apart from a C in history.

last seen diggin up M6
i loved teachign him.

RubyRioja Wed 02-May-07 22:14:55

Wow! Not sure what previous life I had imagined for you, but prob not teaching . The military perhaps>?

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 22:15:26

hmm well it was a clsoe call
i taught nutty we think

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 22:15:26

hmm well it was a clsoe call
i taught nutty we think

climbingwalls Wed 02-May-07 22:16:28

hmmm yep maybe the night time battle doesn't really come under any of these scenarios and solutions...

will be resorting to a sticker chart (again...how dull) I think to crack this problem.

Other than that the tips here work a treat, have been doing them for a while now and it definately avoids unnecessary battles and tantrums etc ,and can be done while oding other more interesting things too ("uha hmmm yes dear" while on MN!!)

RubyRioja Wed 02-May-07 22:17:02

How long have you been maging? Is that the technical term? Am pondering my future and fancy something with a little gravitas.

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 22:17:03

yes i ma deffo using hem more
ti sliek positive teachign
when you haev the ENERGY its fine

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 22:17:23

erm 2 years now
amno longer new gal
and will soon no longer be youngest

RubberDuck Wed 02-May-07 22:18:06

I love "describe what you see" technique - it's my fall back for when I'm really about to blow my top. I reckon it works about 7 times out of 10 in this household too.

me [said through gritted teeth]: well, bedtime's in ten minutes and I see that you've tipped out the contents of EVERY toy drawer downstairs and built a tower out of them.
ds1 and ds2 grin sheepishly.
me [walks out and counts to about 600, practising breathing techniques, comes back in]: Oh, well done. I see that you've picked up one drawer and put half the cars away. [go away again]

Didn't get it all tidy again, but at least they didn't go into sulky meltdown and I didn't rant at them and end up doing it all myself. In my book, that's a result.

PeterAndreFanCLub Wed 02-May-07 22:19:07

i agree rd

( vis a vis maggin if you want any tuips cat me - have tow succesfful candidate s under belt htis year)

RubyRioja Wed 02-May-07 22:19:54

Do you ever worry you will bump into someone who has been 'up before you' and they might take issue? Only been to court once on work experience and was shocked by 'low life' types.

RubyRioja Wed 02-May-07 22:20:54

Thanks, for offer. Have I just shown unsuitability by use of 'low life' term?

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 08:42:19

erm yes but outraged middle calss are much mroe fun.( and more likely to rememerb you)

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 12:30:03

any success otday?

morningpaper Thu 03-May-07 13:21:29

Hmm I think this point has been missed:

CristinaTheAstonishing "I went to a workshop once where we discussed whether it's a good idea to give children the language for some of their feelings and whether it wasn't putting (negative) ideas into their heads."

I wonder if I keep saying to DD "Gosh you must be so disappointed that X", she will sink into a Disappointed Gloom and if she hears this several times a day she will listening to the Smiths by the time she is 5

What do you think?

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 13:22:32

i rekcon you can oevr egg it deffo

but i think any kdi who has an oucne of emotional literacy will find life easier to deal wiht

RubberDuck Thu 03-May-07 13:23:41

Not in my experience, mp. I found it gave them words to describe what they were feeling.

ds1 will quite happily tell me he found something "disappointing" or "frustrating" whereas previously he'd have gone off in a sulk. By sympathising with him and giving him words to deal with it, somehow it diffused it.

Am finding this thread really useful cod, ta. Read the book ages ago, but I really do need a refresher - have slipped into bad habits.

RubberDuck Thu 03-May-07 13:24:58

I tend to use the phrase "you sound..." or "you must be..." which felt a bit less fake than the book examples.

And I'll just as often use "you sound really proud of yourself" or "you must be really excited" as much as the negative stuff.

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 13:25:57

not " i guess you are geetting fresh " then>

RubberDuck Thu 03-May-07 13:27:15

PMSL no ... can't say I use that one often

southeastastra Thu 03-May-07 13:28:24

haha love the turtle! must buy this book

ahundredtimes Thu 03-May-07 13:32:04

I tried this and liked the writing messages bit. That was nice. But whenever I said 'Hmm you must be feeling -' or 'that really sounds bad honey' it seemed to come out in a fake american accent, and my children would stop talking, put their heads to one side and say, 'STOP TALKING LIKE THAT?'

Though perhaps should get it off bookshelf again and reread as ds1 said to me the other day, 'I'm not going to talk about what happened at school today, because you'll just make it YOUR problem' which was was both insightful and sobering I thought.

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 13:32:58

ooh your kdis osund funy 100
i odnt hink you need ot make it your problem
jsut aha and ahum

ahundredtimes Thu 03-May-07 13:37:04

But will I say 'aha' and 'ahum' in an american accent? Do you think I'll get away with it? Though clearly need to re-read book so he's prepared to talk to me again, I did say that time 'how if you tell me if I PROMISE not to give any advice?' and that made him laugh.

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 13:58:12

what a nice boy

ahundredtimes Thu 03-May-07 14:16:42

Yes. He says he wants to be Tracy Beaker.

rowan1971 Thu 03-May-07 17:50:35

Are we doing this today, Cod? I've been lurking, fascinated. Though did try it out with limited success on DS1 today:

[in car] DS1: Mam, I've just dropped my book down the side of the seat and I can't reach it!
R: Oh, that must be very frustrating for you.
R: Wouldn't it be great if it would just magically jump back up again?
[long silence]
DS1: Mam, you are TEASING ME

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 17:51:26

uoi missed out the ah hum phase

mumblechum Thu 03-May-07 18:00:53

OK, so what do I say to DS. Came in from school.
"Have a nice day, mate?"
"grunt. Nothing exciting ever happens. I hate the weekends."
"Is it cos it's just me and dad that it's boring? Shall I arrange for you to do summat with your mates instead?"

Has now gone out on green to play footie.

Next time he says the above, what am I supposed to say?

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:06:25

id not say anything ot him!
sseriously there is a bti on questioning

hold on will find

mumblechum Thu 03-May-07 18:13:28

Can you hurry up please C od, he'll be home in a minute and I don't want to commit myself to taxiing him around all w.end

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:15:42

1. sdont ask if they had fun

apprently this places them under an obligation to sya yes to shut you up

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:16:07

or what abotu try the fantasy thing oyurself?
ie if i had a whoel weekend to myself i woudl....

Blandmum Thu 03-May-07 18:16:53

so what is OK,

'did you have a day which was tolerable and generaly met your basic needs and expectations?' ?

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:18:38

imo the boring thing is crap

if he says he is bored do the uh hu a hum thing

then " gievt he feeling a name" - ie it must be dull being bored( so you dont deny it)

then the fantasy thign

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:18:55

how abptu not askign anything
just saying hi

twinkleinthesky Thu 03-May-07 18:24:00

I have read this book about 3 times.... excellent ideas... except that I kept having to dash into the loo to take a sneaky peek at the book to see what I ought to be saying next, mid conversation.......

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:24:56

ye sin lots of wasy it coudl be a lto shorter

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:25:32

____________________________________________________________chapter THREE----------------------------------------------------------

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:27:18

alternatives to punishment

1. point out a way to be helpful

2.express strogn disaproval wihtout attacking character

3.State your expectations

4.show child how to make ammends

5. giev a choice

6. Take action

7. allow kid to feel consequencs of behaviour

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:29:57

ok kid annoying in supermarket pissing about

1. how to be helpful - can you get me three lemons algernon?

2. Disapproval - i dont like this behaviour you are annoying the other shoppers

3. giev a choice - no running either WALK or sit int eh trolley

4.take action - kid plops into trolley

5. consequences of behaviour - rmeind kid next time that they cant come wiht youto supermaket( htink tbh my kdis would be delighted) adn that htey can come next time

NadineBaggott Thu 03-May-07 18:33:11

and we all had lashings of ginger ale ...

mumblechum Thu 03-May-07 18:37:35

MB &Cod

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:39:23

NB i can give you a banning order

Blandmum Thu 03-May-07 18:40:27

Go on then, if you think you are 'erd enough

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:40:47

N B but if the cap fits

Blandmum Thu 03-May-07 18:41:35

Well hush my mouth , Peter, I thought it just might be a typo!

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:42:32

im going ot give up on this htread.

RubberDuck Thu 03-May-07 18:46:22

Nooo... don't give up - it's useful!

It's the natural consequences thing I always have problems with. Thinking of a fair consequence can be bloody hard sometimes.

What a great thread. OMG, so much of it rings true with my two. Esp the going to bed stuff...GRRR, Mum I just need to get a book, just need the toilet, there's a spider in the bath, just want to give you a hug...oh, what's Dad playing on the Xbox, can I just watch this race, Mum I just need the toilet again, Mum I can see some light shining through my curtains.

Have had a brief read through, will give it a go.... be interesting to see how it goes.

Is there a chapter on, how to cope when you're pregnant and you're on the verge of moving out? ... I love them really

I read '1..2..3.. Magic' a couple of years ago, fantastic book, need to have a re-read, I've slipped back into old habits

NadineBaggott Thu 03-May-07 18:50:28

yes m'lud

I've had this book ages and never managed to read through it - just skimmed bits. But from Cod's synopsis I think I'm doing it anyway.

DD yabbers nonstop in my ear while I don't really listen but just keep making soothing noises and saying "yes, dear" and "I see" and "mmmmm".

See, I am a great mum

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:51:48


PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 18:51:59

adn its your farking worhsip

NadineBaggott Thu 03-May-07 18:52:47


yes your farking worship

RubyRioja Thu 03-May-07 18:53:06

Don't give up Cod - it is worthwhile for the comedy value alone!

Have given up on the first two dds - obv too late for redemption. When dd3 went into full on terrible twos meltdown in the supermarket, I just went to my happy place . Shame for the other shoppers really .

Also pondering my Mag suitability. Was talking careers generally and someone suggested I could be a mag . [Feeling valiadated emoticon] and developing my 5 year plan!

ahundredtimes Thu 03-May-07 19:08:52

DS2 I'm not eating. I want to go on the computer.
Me: Mmmmm, (nodding head)
DS2 Why are you doing that?
Me I was just thinking how great it would be if we never had to eat and we could just play computer games all day.
DS2: You're weird. If you did that you would DIE.
Me: Hmm, (more nodding)
DS2: What are we eating? I'll tell you what would be great would be if we had a line of like dwarfs or something by the window and we could throw them out whenever we felt cross.
Me: Hmm. I can't think of an appropriate non-judegemental soccer mom/ car pool mom response to make to that.

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 19:09:48

well thst easy you hsoudl have just said yes he can

ahundredtimes Thu 03-May-07 19:13:09

Oh. So we're doing positive parenting too are we? Christ, it's a big ask this.

Gobbledigook Thu 03-May-07 19:18:58

God I need this book. Ds3 is out of control. He's only 2 though - it won't work will it?

Blandmum Thu 03-May-07 19:23:39

LOL at all the kids thinking that their DMs have turned a little odd following this thread.

I got the same effect when I started to say 'I hear what you say' (as recomended in a managing teens session I went on) They all thought I'd gone farking bonkers

rowan1971 Thu 03-May-07 20:17:35

Please don't give it up, it's really useful. And your summaries are very pithy. [weapons-grade smarm]

Also, I am skint and don't want to buy the book.

I take your point about missing out the 'aha, uh-humm' stage earlier. Why is it important though? Usually I try not to grunt on principle, but will make an exception if necessary.

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 20:18:09

cos you are actively listening

PeterAndreFanCLub Thu 03-May-07 20:18:53

and if oyu have ever ranted to someone who just sitsn ad lsitens to you youll knwo that you thne start back trakcing
( liek when you complain in a shop)

rowan1971 Thu 03-May-07 20:20:45

OK! That makes sense.

Thinking about it, I have a friend who's a clinical psychologist, and she does this all the time.

FrannyandZooey Thu 03-May-07 20:45:58

Cod you were right, this thread is marvellous

v funny and helpful

do keep it up

MamaPyjama Thu 03-May-07 20:55:54

Yeah mb, you get that look because 'I hear what you say,' is usually followed by, 'and I'm not listening to it/going to do anything about it.'

I've just done a 1,2,3 Magic course and thought that was good. I found How to Talk all a bit wordy, but do some of the important bits. Like Uh-huh, and ahhh, especially if I'm mumsnetting.

CristinaTheAstonishing Thu 03-May-07 20:56:02

Cod is right, it's so disconcerting to rant at someone who just listens, you run out of steam so much quicker.

Re: emotional literacy (chapter 1), the workshop I was mentioning was to do with deaf children who may need more direct input and explanations about feelings and other words as they are less likely to overhear them in others' conversations. Also they may have difficulty in perceiving sarcasm as may not differentiate the slight change of tone in the voice (although sooner or later they'll make up for this by understanding the body language that goes with it). Anyway, I can't remember sarcasm being recommended in HTTSKWL. Also because of vocabulary & grammar limitations, I know my son at a younger age would have lost interest if I painfully tried to find the right words to describe feelings, all those "I'd have thought you would have been feeling..." etc. Which is why it probably wouldn't work as well with a very young toddler either.

BearintheBigBlueHouse Thu 03-May-07 21:14:31

Right - have only just got up-to-date on this thread.

My shrink recommended I get and use this book a couple of years ago. I started to but then got freaked a bit - don't they suggest you leave yourself notes on Post-its, strategically placed around your abode, to remind yourself of the strategies you should be using? I was that worried about the state of this place and what anyone might think should they walk in (what I think people might think was another issue that needed thrashing out with the good doctor but that's by the by) that I couldn't bring myself to do that, and as I've got the memory of a sleep-deprived goldfish, I just couldn't see it working. Can you imagine me saying to Mrs Bear, 'quick, lets leg it round and whip down the Post-its, there's someone at the door!' Then they're sat there having tea and I spy a stray one that we missed, just over their shoulder and launch myself at it, Ben Stiller-stylee, milliseconds before they notice it and ask......but, then I can tell any number of strangers I was in therapy. Boy am I screwed up.

But anyway now it's been validated by PAFC, whom I rightly revere, I'm going to be all over it like a rash again. You'll know me, I'll be the one by the pool on my Bodentastic holiday this half term wearing Fat Face boardshorts reading HTTSKWLALSKWT and writing copiously on Post-its.

All that said, when I did try it (and DD was still a bit young) it did seem like it might have results. Now she's ripe for some HTT action, and boy, are we all going to benefit. Thanks for the heads up

morningpaper Thu 03-May-07 21:48:23

Hmm I hae not fared so well

I usually just resort to sarcasm which makes dd laugh instead

e.g. tonight

I throw her a toothbrush in the bath

HER: I want a proper TOOTHBRUSH
ME: <THINKING WTF IS THE MATTER NOW, HMM should I say I understand how you are feeling? I understand that must make you sad? But is IS a fecking proper toothbrush>
So I ended up saying "What do you think that is, a mouse's knickers?" and she laughed so we moved on

FrannyandZooey Thu 03-May-07 22:12:29

I also don't think I am a natural for this book

yesterday when ds had hurt his hand on a stick in the park I was fairly desperate for some light heartedness, so said:

"I think that stick should be ashamed of itself. I bet that stick's Mummy is saying "What do you think you were doing, hurting poor ds?" and the stick is saying "Waaaah! He fell on me! He squashed my head with his big fat fingers!" "

<cue renewed outbreak of hysterical crying from ds>

morningpaper Thu 03-May-07 22:14:08

DOH Franny you are a RUBBISH at this

FrannyandZooey Thu 03-May-07 22:17:23


<hangs head>

ruddy pesky things, sticks, though

morningpaper Thu 03-May-07 22:19:29

Also mine said "I don't WANT to get out of bath"

And I said "Hmmmm"

We repeated this exchange several times

Nothing magical happened

climbingwalls Thu 03-May-07 22:20:28

Cod this thread is Geeeenious!!

Please miss, don't give up coz a few roudy sarky kids at the front disrupt things, think of all us quiet students raptly paying attention to your every word that would miss out....

Have pretended to be a good mummy all day today using tips from this thread and it has worked wonders (but DS is still not buying the whole fantasy thing yet )

climbingwalls Thu 03-May-07 22:22:55

PMSL F&Z and morningpaper

ahundredtimes Thu 03-May-07 22:23:04

I am now outrageously, flamboyantly successful at this - and we're only on chapter 3. After brief dwarf hiccup we moved on seamlessly to bathtime where DD3 refused to get out of the bath and I said 'You'd like to stay in the bath because it's fun and you're having such a good time' to which she said 'I AM NOT' and got out the bath as quick as you like.
Not sure it's meant to quite work like this, but all the same. Bring on Chapter 4.

climbingwalls Thu 03-May-07 22:27:24

what happens when it backfires though:

DS: can I have an icecream?

"No, sorry, not today DS"

DS but I want an ice cream!

"I understand you want one, but I'm not getting you one today"

DS but I waaannnnttt ONE!

"I know, it must be disappointing, wouldn't it be great if all we ever ate was ice cream?"

DS So can I have one?


DS I'm not happy with your behaviour mummy.

I was stumped, but we moved on without another mention of ice cream!

rowan1971 Thu 03-May-07 22:31:25

climbingwalls: you missed out the 'mmm, uhuhrgh' bit.

(See Miss, I'm paying attention Miss)

ahundredtimes Thu 03-May-07 22:33:55

Too much talking. Not enough listening. Just nod a lot and move on imagining how it'd be if the whole world was full of ice cream. Wasn't there something though about putting them in a supermarket trolley? Perhaps we have to keep these with us at all times.

RubberDuck Fri 04-May-07 08:15:52

F&Z - your story about the stick reminds me that every time ds2 hurts himself (he's almost 3) I go into major theatrical telling off of the object that hurt him in full finger waggle mode: "naughty stick for hurting my ds2!"

I always get a teary giggle

So you're just not trying hard enough

FrannyandZooey Fri 04-May-07 08:31:55

Oh this is easy after all.

Ds: This pen isn't working!
Me: Oh, it isn't working?
Ds: No, it's got stuck!
Me: Oh, it's got stuck?
Ds: It's just....oh, I've done it!
Me: Oh, you've fixed it?
Ds: Yes....oh, no, it's stuck again!
Me: Oh, it's stuck again?
Ds: Yes.....<looks at me up to my ears in washing>....I think I'll stop worrying about it now and ask you to fix it after breakfast...

HAH! Now to practise, so I can do it on autopilot.

NadineBaggott Fri 04-May-07 08:33:00

oh I like that franny.

too late for me of course but that looks like a real plan!

filthymindedvixen Fri 04-May-07 08:42:36

Franny your stick story remined me of jon ronson for some reason

FrannyandZooey Fri 04-May-07 08:49:03

Oh GAWD I really like Jon Ronson but know that most people find him annoying and cringy

oh god am turning into the Jon Ronson of MN

filthymindedvixen Fri 04-May-07 08:51:04

I realy like him (i can identify with him...especially whenhe gets all paranoid...)

FrannyandZooey Fri 04-May-07 08:58:13

yes me too

did you see that thread recently where everyone else said he was an embarrassment and only thought he was funny? <paranoia>

filthymindedvixen Fri 04-May-07 09:12:28

<<eyes dart right and left rapidly>>

He makes me laugh out loud in the Guardian (in self-reconition...)

Pruni Fri 04-May-07 09:13:44

Message withdrawn

FrannyandZooey Fri 04-May-07 09:15:40

<FMF let's laugh very loudly at each other's jokes. We'll soon see who is cringy and un-funny around here>

FrannyandZooey Fri 04-May-07 09:16:43

Pruni I think on Childsnet they are all saying "wtf is all this talking stick and house made of egg business? They have all gone barking mad."

Pruni Fri 04-May-07 09:18:54

Message withdrawn

filthymindedvixen Fri 04-May-07 09:23:09

<<throws back head and laughs hysterically>>>

Zog Fri 04-May-07 10:12:40

ahyndredtimes, I am pmsl at your post about the dwarves

good advice about the shopping trolley <<makes notes>>

FrannyandZooey Fri 04-May-07 12:40:18

So where is cod?

I did it and I did it right

now I want praise, and preferably stickers

NuttyMuffins Fri 04-May-07 12:41:19

My book arrived today, haven't had chance to look at it yet, but will do it soon and tell you what I think of it.

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 12:43:06

"I am now outrageously, flamboyantly successful at this"
lol at 100 times

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 12:44:50

cimbbing walls re ice cream
oyu missed oyu the aha ahum bit

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 12:45:04

( as rowna said)

Blandmum Fri 04-May-07 12:45:44

Cod, I really tried this with the upper sixth this morning. They thought I was totaly mad, and in the end I fell back on sarcasm.

Mea Culpa, I have failed you!

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 12:46:14

Come on teach. We're waiting for Chapter Four seminar, you can't be too cool for school already.
Otherwise we're going to mess with our children's minds only knowing half the strategy. Could be very dangerous.

BTW, while we're sitting at our desks throwing things around the room waiting, I adore Jon Ronson. My favourite was when he was in his back garden one night calling in his cat, and he heard his neighbours imitating him and he ran indoors slamming the door shut, and wondered whether he'd ever be able to call his cat again.

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 12:48:21

well done all my disciples( am i mn royalty now or mereley and important jewish guy?)

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 12:49:30

adn Bear and 100 times( are yo new or a name changer) you are making me cakc me pants.

haev been out at gym preparing body fro tonights tapas extravaganza with neighbours.

( also saw an ex " customer" in wiatrose <taps nose>)

FrannyandZooey Fri 04-May-07 12:50:54

See? hundredtimes is the funniest person on this thread and she likes Jon Ronson. I rest my <paranoid> case.

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 12:51:14

jon ronson sounds hightly irritating to me. call yer blardy cat.
ahev we had any feedback on " alternatives to puncishmetn" before we start chapter4/

still lol at all of this thread

WideWebWitch Fri 04-May-07 12:52:05

I've read this book, hated it and wrote sarcastic comments in mine. I've just come to this thread frm the mp round up, is it worth reading?

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 12:54:45

ooh am i in the round up
ye sit really is although a lto of it is waffle

youc an read hte thread instead as its funnier tbha nd no annoyignly gcse type pictures

filthymindedvixen Fri 04-May-07 12:56:03

oh dear lords, I just realsied what I've been doing wrong. You know when your children are in the vicinity. And then all that noise stuff happens. Should I be actually listening to that noise? Are they trying to communicate with me?
(Generally I just leave food out for them and pat them absently on the head when they interrupt my reading....)

hana Fri 04-May-07 12:58:27

must go back and read thread, but just got this out of the library for my wayward 5 year old ( oh the challenges.....) and I have wondered about it all , the feelings good is bit, but I don't think I"d go so far as to write things down ( or am I getting it confused with another parenting guru advice booK? I have them all at the moemnt, tis v difficult time for me and my 5 year odl

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 12:58:52

I think as long as you add enough ummm aha mmma with the patting of heads it is ok?

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 12:59:29

yes rowan is teachers pet i think
and yes teacher do really haev them

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 13:01:24

Alternatives to punishment - is this where the shopping trolley comes in?

FrannyandZooey Fri 04-May-07 13:01:37

Can't we do one chapter a week? I am still grappling with chapter 2 at present

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 13:02:59

Don't bother with the book www, just read this thread!!

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 13:07:49

Think I should be teacher's pet. I'm doing really well. I keep putting my hand up. I am experimenting without caution on all three DCs, and nicking shopping trolleys to boot.

lesliephillips Fri 04-May-07 13:10:01

have just received the book from amazon this morning, on the strength of lurking on this thread and will be speed reading it whilst DTs watch Chitty Chitty Bang Bang

PS love Jon Ronson too

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 13:11:25

well id ont love him andi am the boss
hundredtimes hwoa re you

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 13:11:47

( osrry i shoudlnt have said htat i shoudl haev sai " ah jon ronson aha ahum yes")

incywincy Fri 04-May-07 13:15:13


don't know if its been mentioned but the book is £4.99 from school link and comes with the teenage version too. see here school link

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 13:15:43

Yes, you should have and then you could have said, wouldn't it be great if Jon Ronson could call in all our cats and be laughed at by neighbours all over the country and I'd have felt validated and appeased.
I'm keen to press on to Chapter 4 teach, that's how I am.
(See I always to smart-alecky and impatient to ever qualify as teacher's pet).

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 13:16:08

no mroe chapters til we haev trolley updates

( NB you dont have ot haev a trolely to offer alternatives to punishemnt) do you wnat a ntoehr chapter 3 eg from the book???

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 13:16:48

Oh, you said 'who' not 'how'. I'm ahundred times. And if I've asked you once to get on with chapter four, I've asked you...

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 13:17:09

( re. cats the neighbour hwo is ocming tonight has a nicghbor who is rather posh and is about 70 and evey night clls her two cats in

" timothy jeffrey" lolol

and her dh is called tim ( my mate)

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 13:17:37

or rather timoooooooothy, jefffffffffffffffry

like that

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 13:18:48

ok must eat
then net chapter

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 13:20:15

lol ahundredtimes I too have my shopping trolley ready (and it was a blardy nightmare getting it home...)

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 13:20:29


ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 13:20:33

Okay, so does it go like this.
DS2 I won't go to school today. I'd rather stay at home and play with the dwarfs.
100 Aha, I see, uhuh.
DS2 I won't put on my shoes or socks.
100 Wouldn't it be great if we never wore shoes or socks.
DS2 The dwarfs wouldn't either then.
100 No. But If you don't get them on I will have to put you in this shopping trolley, which I have brought back from Sainsburys last night.

?? doesn't sound right to me. I think we need an example.

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 13:27:34

ok while you're eating and we're all waiting for chapter 4, here's my example of alternatives to punishment:

After munch DS gets up and leaves the table

me "DSdon't forget your plate" (house rule: take plate to kitchen after eating)

DS NO you do it today for me mummy

me "DS please take your plate to the kitchen"

DS but I don't want to...I have a headache...you do it

Me "It's your responsibility, please take it to the kitchen"

DS Oh oh oh

Me "well, if you leave it there it won't get washed up so won't be clean for supper tonight"

DS takes plate to kitchen and says "yuk, a dirty plate for SUPPER!!! that would be funny!"

Did I do it right miss? Did I??

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 13:29:24

pmsl ahundredtimes!

(my shopping trolley has become dumping ground for everything, clothes, bags, shoes...)

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 13:30:57

God you're good CW. You did 'consequences'. Wish I'd done that. And they were brilliant, dirty plate consequences too.

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 13:32:14

I know, but emagine if I'd had to carry it through coz he didn't take the plate to kitchen???

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 13:32:42

Other possible uses because it's taking up a lot of space in the hallway - dirty plates (obviously), dwarfs (natch), laundry, all other childcare books because we won't be needing them now will we?

Blandmum Fri 04-May-07 13:34:53

so do we all need one of these and some of these ? or just the book?

I'm confused now!

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 13:35:31

I think I'm going to choke I'm laughing so hard!

don't forget to add naughty steps to shopping trolley, we won't need them now either!

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 13:36:25

yes MB they are crucial if this technique is to work!!!

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 13:37:22

Dwarfs frankly a distraction, but shopping trolley was definitely key part of programme. Have to wait for teach to finish lunch though (clearly long, liquid, languid lunch in staff room) to really nail this though.

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 13:37:25

although I'm not sure how the sixth formers would react to being plonked in shopping trolley every time they act up...

Blandmum Fri 04-May-07 13:39:40

'miss I haven't done my homework'

'get into the trolly, tell the dwarfes to budge up a bit!

Blandmum Fri 04-May-07 13:40:46

and then I say 'You must be feeling fucking stupid now!'

Is that right?

Oh realised I should have ummed a bit before telling then to get into the trolly

Blandmum Fri 04-May-07 13:41:51

tempting as this is, I don't think the SMT will let me do it.......

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 13:47:13

then you'll just have to put SMT in the trolley.

lesliephillips Fri 04-May-07 13:51:36

LOL MB I think trolleys shoudl be standard issue on all ITT courses from now on...I feel an INSET day coming on - 2 hours of powerpoint on 'the effective use of shopping trollyes in assertive discipline'

Issymum Fri 04-May-07 14:26:19

MB: "'miss I haven't done my homework'

'get into the trolly, tell the dwarfes to budge up a bit!

and then I say 'You must be feeling fucking stupid now!'

Is that right?

Oh realised I should have ummed a bit before telling then to get into the trolly"

I don't know if it's the jet lag (just got back from the US) or general Friday hysteria, but I think in four years plus of Mnetting that this is the first time I've laughed out loud. (I'm a humourless old bag).

I bought HTT about a year ago, read it, tried it, it worked. Since then I have inevitably being backsliding faster than Kate Moss on Nicotine patches. The problem with HTT is that all that patient, positive parenting is so bloody fatiguing; I honestly find it less tiring to shout multiple times in a crescendo of increasing irritation 'Put your damned shoes on' than engage my 6 year old in a dialogue about her conflicted emotions relative to appropriate foot apparel.

And HTT and children not staying in bed after bedtime are incompatible. No active listening, no 'hmning' and certainly no fantasising: "Wouldn't it be lovely if you could stay up all evening with us drinking Cabernet Sav, sprawling on the sofa and tut tutting about the formulaeic but compulsive drivel that is 'House'" - no it bloody wouldn't. They should be in bed and silent - sleeping optional - which entirely precludes active or even inactive listening. I find hissing menancingly 'If you don't stay in bed I'll disembowel you' and meaning it, way more effective.

But to be fair to Cod, if I must, it is a good book and it is worth re-reading annually even if only to shift your parenting style from Guantanamo Bay battering to Derren Brown mental manipulation.

However, F&Z will tell you that for a genuine 'paradigm shift' (woohoo 90's management speak) in your approach to parenting only the crazily impractical but otherwise brilliant Alfie Cohen's "Unconditional Parenting" will do.

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 16:20:09

ROFL issy.
very good re kate moss
i must admit my parenting to date hasnt broguth up many issues ( sorry) but i do find hte repeating yourself htign tiresome

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 16:41:08


+++++++++++++++++++++CHAPTER 4 ENOUCRAGIN AUTONOMY++++++++++++++++++++++

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 16:43:27

2. show repsect fro a child's sturggle
3. dont ask too many questions
4. dont rush to anwer questions
5. encourage children to use sources soutside the home
6. dont take away hope

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 16:45:11

so say for number " - show repsect say" "patns can be hard to put on by yourself" ( as kid struggles)

or " doign maths can be hard"

asn so on

the afteR sCHool BARRGAE OF Qs shoudl be summarised into thi

"hi im glad to see you"

BearintheBigBlueHouse Fri 04-May-07 16:45:34

don't take away hope?!?!?!

they took mine, why do they get to keep theirs?


PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 16:46:36

if a kid asks " were does rain from"

rather than rattlign off o' level geography say

" thats an intersting question where do you think it comes rom "
( see aha! gotahc There kiddy cos daddy has NO IDEA)

or ( other eg in book)

why dos grandma come every week to see us?

you askt he kid

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 16:47:01

bear i welcome oyu wiht open arms since hte triumph of the lsit thread

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 16:48:35

sources outside he home

" why does my fish keep dying daddy"

" lets askthe pet shop owner"
( this is very good tip imo - not s just re fish obv but to encourage kdi to helpthemselves)

"mom haev oyu foudn me a guitar teacher yet" ( arsey kid eh?)

"no im still lookign - maybe you coudl ask around at school to see if the other kid have one"

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 16:49:23

*preparing for disappointment* ( god we haev ALL been there)

kid " am tryng out for the chool play( oh yes cod memory flash)

Whoooosh Fri 04-May-07 16:51:18

Issymum-fab post

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 16:51:27

dont say " oh well do you think they will giev the big parts to the older kdis( wel obv theyw eillfgs)"
you say" geeso yoou are tyring out for the lead thtall be an experience"

am worried kid will end up snorting coke as some lohan esque groupie btu there you are.

kid " maybe ill be an engineer wheni grow up" (WHY??)

you dont say" not wiht your maths skill sonny boy"

you say " so you are intersetd in a career inengineering?"

i MUST say the conversation in this family must be PRE - TTY boring after a while - like theres a perpetual echo

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 16:58:50

im not so excited abotu the giev a choice for eveythng tbh, one of the egs in the book is abotu baths - well god most kdsi wudl haev one a year.

regardign bed time if hte kid is pissing abotu they say you say to ki" its mommy and daddys time now do you want to go to slepe now or read in bed till we tuck you in"

hmmm. the coutner argiment is that a forced choice isnt really a choice but hey ho


1. stay out of the minutae of a kids life ( ooh eys i see fussy mums a lot leavet hem a lone fgs)

2. dont talk about a kid in fornt of them no matter how small the kid

3. let a kid speak fo themselves

4.show repect fo your kdis eventiual readiness - ie " one day you will use the loo liek mummy and daddy" (well lets hope not QUITE like daddy)

5. whthc out for too many no's

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 17:00:37


I'm not going to ask about your day.
Find your own guitar teacher (you pushy demanding kid).
I don't know why your pets don't survive but don't ask me FIND A PROFESSIONAL.
Fractions are shitty, but don't look to me to help you out.

I think I'm going to do really well on this chapter. Going to find DCs now. . .

HuwEdwards Fri 04-May-07 17:02:26

am all for encouraging autonomy, it equates broadly, to me having to do less, but god yes, with you on the echo thing - would drive me and dcs I think, NUTS

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 17:02:43

alternatives to No

give info am leav out the no

kdi - can i go otu to play

mum we are hgavign dinner in 5 mins


2. accept his feelings (your fave gals)

kid - i dont want ot leave the zoo
mum well tis hard ot leave somewhere oyu loev so much( accepting its tough)

3. descreibe the problem
i htin every moron on this thread can do this now
kid - cna we go to the park
mum - the electricina is comign in 5 minutes (WHY??)

4.substitute a no fo a yes
cna we NOW go to teh park( the farkign electrcian has been)
yes right after lunch

( oooh clever agin)

5 give yourself time to htink

cna i sleep over at garys house as i haevnt been ot the park all farkign day?

mum - let me think baout it

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 17:03:32

right my keyboars is smellgin of rubber nad there is steam ocmign otu of ti
that should be enought fro a bank holiday bumper edition.

am lovign this thread oyu lot very very funny

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 17:05:52

Oooh I like this chapter, especially the bit about staying out of the minutae of a kid's life (coz their lives a resoooo boring and tedious sometimes and I'd rather thy just got on with things themselves and left me to do my own stuff)

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 17:07:29

yes bt god you do see musm fussing over their kdis
" put oyur hair up
wipe your nsoe"

waht are you doing

sit up when you work
ahev you read hte book

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 17:09:51

kid - Mum, can we go to the park?
aha, ahum
Kid - but we should go Mum because its dark here and there's no light because the electrician was totally useless and I don't want to sit in the dark all day. ITS SO DARK I CAN'T EVEN PRACTISE MY GUITAR.
You want to practise your guitar because you're going to be a guitar-playing engineer.

Mum and kid sink into depressed silence in gloomy house.

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 17:11:10

100 get wiht it
we arent aha ing any more

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 17:11:25

ahundred times you forgot the bit about fantasising that there is light and you're already at the park playing

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 17:13:18

God yeah can't stand fussy mums (and dads) put your slippers on, don't drag your coat, don't sit there, be careful, slow down, watch where you're going...FFS

HuwEdwards Fri 04-May-07 17:16:59

ah yes but the 'fussy' parent works the other way too.

I know a mum who insists on trying to articulate every reason possible to her dd to explain why she won't let her do something.

Her dd 'Mum can we dress up'

Mum 'DD, come here please. Now, mummy is cooking so you can have dinner, you do want dinner don't you? Now if I'm cooking that must mean dinner will be ready soon. Now. We don't want dinner all down our princess dress do we, because we want to wear it to Harry's party tomorrow. So, darling why don't you go an wash your hands instead'

Kid obeys because she's completely forgotton what she asked her mum.

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 17:17:08

Sorry. Ok. Sitting up straight now. Paying attention (though still somewhat distracted and concerned about fused electrics and the guitar - perhaps it was an electric guitar you see and he'd gone to all the bother of finding his own teacher at school etc etc.)

I need time to think about this, and you will accept that it hard to move on from the ahas when I love them so much.
Need my gunea pigs to stop watching tv and start kicking up a fuss so I can practise.
Will report back.

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 17:18:37

good point HE but that mum soudns a wanker

HuwEdwards Fri 04-May-07 17:21:07

ah yes, indeed she is.

climbingwalls Fri 04-May-07 17:21:47

yeah that poor kid...

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 17:27:30

I don't know, sounds a more reasonable response than saying
'You want to dress up because you love dressing up and it's hard to be told you can't, perhaps we should contact a professional chef to find out what they do in their restaurants when the waiters decide they want to put on princess dresses five minutes before the food is cooked' - which is what I'm currently being brainwashed into saying.

Blandmum Fri 04-May-07 17:30:24


When the tone deaf kid with a cloth ear and a face which looks as if she hit every branch out of the ugly tree she fell out of tells me she is going to be a singing star I'm not to snear 'Yer, right, and I'm going to be the next Kate Moss'

Is that right?

I should say , 'Ohh that is intereting. Waiting round doing fuck all school work while you sit on your arse waiting for the call from the X factor will be very good for your self confidence'

MrsBadger Fri 04-May-07 17:31:30

oh porkypete i do love you
this thread has made me laugh and laugh

Issymum Fri 04-May-07 17:33:42

"Her dd 'Mum can we dress up'"

WOHM response: Of course, but not right now. Shoot me an email and I'll see if I can't schedule a dressing-up window in my diary for some time early Q3. We can run through your homework G&Os [goals and objectives] at the same time.

DD1: OK [Utterly bewildered but aware that mommy is treating her with the same respect she accords her adult colleagues and empowering her to resolve her dressing up issues, goes off to reload the Nightmare on Elm Street dvd.]

Works for me!

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 17:34:00

Or perhaps you could just 'describe the problem' MB such as - 'As a rule singing stars are very attractive.'

Blandmum Fri 04-May-07 17:34:53

Or one I have just done.

Can I come to the chip shop with you?


OK then

Easy peasy?

Anyone else want chips while I'm there?

Blandmum Fri 04-May-07 17:36:03

or i suppse, @usualy famous singers can hold a tune'

Not, that is just a load of shit nowerdays isn't it?

oranges Fri 04-May-07 17:39:37

oh god, i started another thread about how to stop myself weeping after an infuriating phone call with my mother, I should have just followed the techniques on this thread instead. It has made me HOWL with laughter. Thank you.

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 17:40:51

Yes, but who cares you've reached the main objectives of this lesson - you haven't said NO and you've undermined her confidence and self-belief in a really arch and unaggressive way, so congratulations all round, I think

FrayedKnot Fri 04-May-07 17:42:11

You were right PAFC it did take 30 mins to read

Supper is late

But I really need to get into this book and so does DH..

Will be following

piglit Fri 04-May-07 17:44:29

Oranges - why don't you use the book's techniques on your mother? And then you could write a book and become very famous and rich.

"How to get your mother to respect you and do as she's told".


BearintheBigBlueHouse Fri 04-May-07 18:12:13

PAFC, I'm touched with that welcome. I'm terribly impressed with the breadth of your portfolio - stretching from Potty Training Boot Camp Lieutenant Colonel to Family Dynamics Therapist. Not to mention the day job.

You know they're resurrected the lsit thread.......

Isn't there a book for sales professionals "Getting to Yes" - isn't this just "Getting to No, But Only After You Have Exhausted Umming, Echoing, Informing, Describing, Accepting, Substituting, Pausing" Anyway, I've not caught up with you all so I'll butt out until I've reread and am really putting HTT into practice

lostinfrance Fri 04-May-07 18:27:03

knock knock. is this the evening class? can i grab that chair at the back?

having kids sucked the theasaurus bit out of my brain so i get stuck on the naming of feelings bit.

dd: sally won't let me play with her

me: hmm. i guess you must be feeling really, [searches for good word] um, [shitty? er, no] looks out of window for insiration [crap? can't use that either] [like billy-no-mates?] um .. looks up, kid has wandered off to play with sally.

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 18:31:51

Rushing in from cooking to share this:

DS1 I'm going to kill DS2. I mean it. I am. Now.
But then he will be dead (stating the problem)
Aha ahum (I know but old habits die hard)
DS1 I'm going to strangle him with this
But then he won't be able to breath any more (still persisting with the stating the problem thingy)
DS1: You're really annoying me now.
The dwarfs will miss him (new problem, more persuasive problem, I think.)

Blandmum Fri 04-May-07 18:34:28

Butwill the Dwarves miss him? Or are you misleading him? That sort of thing can shatter a child's trust you know.

Where do I get the dwarves? I nicked a shopping trolly on the way home, so I'm half way there?

ahundredtimes Fri 04-May-07 18:45:26

You're funny MB. How are the chips?
Am now so fluently brilliant at this that when DS1 says 'you know those dwarfs really don't miss ds2 at all, and I'm feeling oddly undermined and insecure about it because you said they would' I can shoot right back with, 'You're feeling oddly undermined and insecure about it. That's understandable. You're also in prison which may be contributing to that vague sense of unease you are describing.'

Easy. Park the shopping trolley somewhere handy, though whilst having a crucial role in chapter 3, does seem to have been forgotten somewhat in chapter 4.

RubberDuck Fri 04-May-07 18:51:49

My success of the evening.

Ds2 really really upset that he didn't get a treat after dinner when ds1 did (ds2 didn't eat all his dinner and didn't even make a very good attempt - natural consequence, tada!). Big theatrical sobs, oh the injustice of it all.

I took him out for a cuddle, then decided he was being fake and started doing big theatrical sobs of my own. He started to giggle and stopped crying.

Not sure what technique that is, but job done

Issymum Fri 04-May-07 19:48:53

Cod/Porky: Does HTT endorse the fine art of ignoring? Not ignoring the child just the behaviour. DD2 (4.5) is going through a victimised/pathetic voice/Paltrow-stylee-tears phase and I just know that the 'I feel your pain' approach would be fatal, when what she needs is a 'I'm not even noticing your pseudo-pain, whoa, did UpsyDaisyDo really do that to HigglePiggle?' ignore then distract approach. It works well on mild hissy fits too but just doesn't chime well with the whole notion of respecting and acknowledging your child's emotions, however ludicrous and inappropriate they may be.

Issymum Fri 04-May-07 19:57:55

Perhaps this is a US/UK cultural divide. Judging by the large but non-randomised sample of US colleagues with whom I've worked over the last decade, they tend to take things Very Seriously and maximise issues whilst the Brits tend towards the disastrously facetious and/or the 'brace up it's only a flesh wound' de-emphasising of a situation.

morningpaper Fri 04-May-07 20:23:42

Issymum you may be right. We've got that Blitz spirit. Darling it's just a tiny piece of shrapnel!

I am finding I can't do any of this without sounding eithe r(a) rudely sarcastic or (b) grossly disinterested. I don't know why - it just seems to SOUND that way when it comes out of my mouth.

dd1: I don't want to clear the table
Me: Hmmm You don't want to clear the table (EITHER SOUNDS LIKE: hmmm I'm just thinking about something utterly unrelated but so much more interesting OR hmmm Do I Look Like I Give A Toss?)

I just don't have the right natural tone

FrayedKnot Fri 04-May-07 20:32:19

Can someone just run ove the basics with me 'cos I need to rehearse

So when I say to DS in the morning

"It's time to get dressed"
And he says
"I don;t want to"

Do I then say

"You must be feeling very ... today <what do i insert there?>

and he says

"Yes Mummy I am" <possibly>

so i say

"Wouldn;t it be fantasic if your clothes would just jump onto you as if by magic without you having to take you pjs off first"

Is that right? I will try it & report back, but what feeling should I use? Why doesn;t DS want to get dressed? And why do I not know?

I can;t remember ever not wanting to, except when my Mum made me wear navy knee length socks, but that was an objection to the specific clothing. I would happily have put white ones on. DS objects to the whole thing.

lostinfrance Fri 04-May-07 20:34:32

morningpaper, i can't get it right either

dd: i don't want to go to bed
me: you don't want to go to bed
dd: that's what i just saidddDDDDUH
me: you must be feeling really ...
dd: stop ittttttttTTTUH

is there anything wrong with my normal style: head lock, threat, retreat.

Blandmum Fri 04-May-07 21:09:46

so you are supposed to say


'that must make you feel ver XXXXX'

'wouldn;'t it be wonderful if you could just YYYYYYY'

'Now shut up and get in the shopping trolly'

'look the dwarves are laughing at you'

Is that it?

Still cannot locate dwarves. Fell that I am being subtly disadvantaged in this method of child rearing

morningpaper Fri 04-May-07 21:15:13

hmm I don't really get the fantasy thing either

DD: I don't WANT to clear the table
ME: Imagine if we didn't clear the table and rats moved in and ate us all up in the middle of the night!
DD: <runs to Therapist>

RubberDuck Fri 04-May-07 21:50:21

You're not really supposed to parrot back word for word, you're just supposed to show that you're listening and repeat back in another way.

e.g. ds: "my teacher yelled at me"
me: "oh, mrs x was cross with you today?"
ds: "yes, and it wasn't even my fault."
me: "you feel she's been unfair."


RubberDuck Fri 04-May-07 21:51:01

For the fantasy: "you wish mrs x wasn't grumpy with you all the time."

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 22:04:07

mb and rubber duck
go to top of class
okt he dwarves are dbinned now
you lto are STUCK ON CHAPTER ONE moev on ononoon

rowan1971 Fri 04-May-07 22:45:22

[Sharpens pencil, straightens paper. Rules margin down left-hand side of page.)

Miss, I couldn't make it today but am catching up. Children are being strangely reasonable so have failed to do any fieldwork.

Other people on this thread are funnier, but NOBODY TRIES HARDER.

NadineBaggott Fri 04-May-07 22:52:10

am pmsl at some of these mummy/child convos - This thread should be up for an award

singersgirl Fri 04-May-07 23:37:37

Oh, this has made me laugh. I am still stuck on Chapter 1 too, and am very confused by the not saying 'no' bit. I always do that and they just say "Does that mean no, then?".

DS1: "I haven't had time to go on the computer today"
Me: "Mmmm"
DS1: "Mummeeeeee....I haven't had time to go on the computer today"
Me: "Yes, you must be disappointed, but you've been busy with other things"
DS1: "When can I go on the computer?"
Me: "Wouldn't it be great if there were 36 hours in a day, instead of just 24? Then you could fit everything in"
DS1: "What are you talking about?"

SuGaRCoAteDPoiSOn Fri 04-May-07 23:56:36

I love this thread, I wonder how effective it is with teens and OHs? It's made me laugh out loud several times

I shall try it and let you know.. might be a while cos they're all away til tuesday


PeterAndreFanCLub Sat 05-May-07 09:00:48

singers girl you are being too vague
you coudl haev rpesented a time int he second sentence

PeterAndreFanCLub Sat 05-May-07 09:01:52

god that was a really serious anwer.

tigermoth Sat 05-May-07 09:37:18

The recognising children's emotions convos work a lot less well if you are rushed for time, IME. Many times nothing but clear quick fire orders will do. Then you have the chats about feeling and emotions at bedtime.

Thinking about my sons, the talking about emotions bit can be a real gift to them as they are natural procrastinators and want to chat, not get on with stuff.

OK I have never read the book!

tigermoth Sat 05-May-07 09:43:32

agree with morningpaper about the tone. I tend to sound menacing I repeat things back, especially if I am getting stressed.

kitbit Sat 05-May-07 11:04:06

DS: this! this! this! play! play! (pointing frantically at the park with his favourite slide in it as we whip past in the car late for tea and overtired) <frantic sobbing>

ME: We're going home for tea now, I know you're disappointed but we'll come back and play another time (hmm, not quite there I don't think)

DS: WAAAAAAAA! Where's Daddy?? Want Daddy!

ME: I'm sorry you're upset sweetie, we're going home to have stories now (fave thing, usually works like a charm)

DS: Mummy...sorry....NO !!!! <more sobbing>

I think I missed a bit of empathy then failed on the stating problem bit before falling flat on my face at the giving choices part.
Sigh. Should I have just said "but we need to go home for tea now" in order to flummox him? I think he would have said "Tea! No! No!".

Skulks off back to the drawing board.

ahundredtimes Sat 05-May-07 11:11:37

Problems with tone best met by adopting american accent imo. This also temporarily throws them, and they forget what it was they were having a strop about. Good to keep everyone on the edge I think during this experiment.
But y'know what? This stuff really works. We're having a ball here. Morning example:

Me Your bedroom is not tidy. I can see toys everywhere.
DD3 Shall I tidy it then?

Wow. Also this:

Me We need to go to the supermarket this morning.
DS2 No way.
Me If we don't go there will be food next week, and if I have to go in the week then I can't work, then there won't be any food nor any money and we won't be able to stay in our house.
DS2 Okay then.

I like this. I find these kind of apocalyptic consequences work best.

ahundredtimes Sat 05-May-07 11:15:59

kitbit - you're being too reasonable. You need to freak them out a bit more. So during tantrum in back of car you echo and say 'You want to go to the park', then you say, 'You'd like to go to the park and play there until next week. Wouldn't that be great?' then you say 'You're screaming and shouting and kicking the back of my seat because you want to go, but you'll stop soon because I'm being so weird.'

PeterAndreFanCLub Sat 05-May-07 11:59:27

lol@ apocalyptic

pleas emove on from chapter one
h"as anyone tried how tosay y no wihtout saying no?"

ahundredtimes Sat 05-May-07 12:47:53

No. I mean - this problem hasn't yet arisen. Though actually now I think of it, in the supermarket DS2 wanted something in the trolley (see still sticking with the trolley) and I said 'it'll rot your teeth' and that worked. Does it count?
Also am moving on from chapter one, but like all best converts am carrying its message with me.

SuGaRCoAteDPoiSOn Sat 05-May-07 12:56:38

ok.. it doesn't work on teens

We're all dressed and redy to go out for breakfast and then shopping. DD is home for the weekend.

DD16 - I can't go out til I've had a bath I need to shave my legs
Me - hmmm uh huh
DD - Muuuuuuuuuuuuummmm!!
me - it must be very frustrating for you to have hairy legs when we need to go out asap because we're meeting grandma at the cafe
DD - WTF???
Me - Wouldn't it be great if we lived in a world where legs magically shaved themselves and nobody had to have hairy legs ever again
DD - Are you on drugs?
Me - if I lived in a world like that I would wave my non hairy arms proudly in the air to show off
DD - but for them to be self shaving they'd have to have little arms growing out of them to shave them for you and then you'd look like a twat

At this point I'm crying with laughter and she's in the bath soo...... I'm a misrable failure

SuGaRCoAteDPoiSOn Sat 05-May-07 12:57:52

oops.. nonhairy arms should be legs

moomymama Sat 05-May-07 12:59:47

I might come across as a wee bit earnest in comparison to the other posts on this thread, but my DP and I absolutley love this book and use the methods everyday with our son. We've had wonderful results... he's 2 and a half...

kitbit Sat 05-May-07 13:04:20

ahundredtimes....ahhhh, OK so "this! this! play! play!" should be met with "we could go and play but then Noddy might turn into a dalek so we'd better not"...freaky enough? <tries to gauage possible results against freakometer>

ahundredtimes Sat 05-May-07 13:38:29

Kitbit, I reckon scoring very high, if a little off message. Am still waiting for dcs to make shockingly inappropriate remark so I can frame good not no response. Am impatient. Might need to do this to the question, 'can we have some lunch?' if things stay this bad.

ahundredtimes Sat 05-May-07 13:40:27

moonymama - I appear facaetious but actually am finding this method fantastically efficient and with excellent humour value to boot. Honestly.

PeterAndreFanCLub Sat 05-May-07 13:55:00

you lot are over usign the fantasy bit
100 i loveya

tigermoth Sat 05-May-07 14:32:31

lol@using this method with teens. Mine would chat back and keep on chatting - he loves a useless time-wasting discussion.

Not saying it's not a good method, empathy is good, but IME not all the time.

FrayedKnot Sat 05-May-07 15:05:46

Have failed miserably today in that my usually confrontational moment with DS didn;t happen because DH got him dressed instead

I am definitely going to use the "I can see an x" on DH instead of "can you put x away".

Just going to look round now for ideas for when he gets home

I don;t feel I can move on from Chap 1 until I have had a chance to practice my technique a bit, sorry..

I am doing less childcare than usual due to bandaged foot but at least I have time to read long threads for a chnage

frenchleave Sat 05-May-07 15:20:31

<Hand goes up>

Can I ask a serious question, Miss?

Does the empathising thing work if instead of all the touchy-feely echoing, you just say does it?/is it?/really?, in a neutral tone? Because I can't do the "and how does that make you feel, sweetheart?" thing either.

PeterAndreFanCLub Sat 05-May-07 16:23:32

will look later have folk here

ahundredtimes Sat 05-May-07 17:09:50

frenchleave - obviously am just horribly enthusiastic student and not EXPERT but I don't think you ask them how they feel, you TELL them, which is quite different ime, you name the emotion. It's quite fun, especially if you're extravagant:
ds2 Aaaaagh, he switched channels, aaaaagh
Me You're feeling that you have no control over your life, you feel thwarted and frustrated because DS1 has the telly buttons.

Great fun, promise.

ahundredtimes Sat 05-May-07 17:10:39

I think I love you too PAFC. I love your book for sure.

PeterAndreFanCLub Sat 05-May-07 17:12:55


100 how any hunderds of kdis do you have

ahundredtimes Sat 05-May-07 17:21:49

300. Perhaps am using dd ds thing wrong, dd3, being third child, a daughter, not third in host of girl children in my house.

PeterAndreFanCLub Sat 05-May-07 17:24:14

dd1 ( ofr hse is the first)

ahundredtimes Sat 05-May-07 17:28:08

You're great. You know everything.

PeterAndreFanCLub Sat 05-May-07 17:28:39

i am starting to not liek you.

ahundredtimes Sat 05-May-07 17:30:31

Yeah, fair enough. Let's just get on with the business of messing with our kids heads.

Blandmum Sat 05-May-07 17:32:44

I did that today. I made them listen to the into of a song, in silence, to prove that I knew the first line of the lyrics.

They both gave me the old 'OMG she is off on one' look again!

PeterAndreFanCLub Sat 05-May-07 17:33:18


lostinfrance Sat 05-May-07 19:51:43

ok. saying No without saying NO. I am an expert. i give you

maybe tomorrow
another day
at the weekend
when dad's home
after tea
in the holidays
when you're [insert appropriate age]
on your birthday
for Christmas

i could go on.

i use this so much my dd2 now self-parents:

'i do painting another day soon mummy?'
'yes, darling'

frenchleave Sat 05-May-07 20:35:30

OK, I get the emotion-naming thing. But what do you do when they don't come up with their own solution spontaneously after all that "mmm"-ing and "I see"-ing? When they really need some guidance? Are we supposed to ignore that and let them work it out for themselves anyway? Even when advice is screaming around my head trying to get out of my mouth?

ahundredtimes Sat 05-May-07 21:17:40

frenchleave - good question. Sounds like chapter 5 to me.

PeterAndreFanCLub Sat 05-May-07 22:53:29

chapter 5 tomorrow

ahundredtimes Sun 06-May-07 21:49:52

Am shocked PAFC. Was idly browsing threads, found one about a poor woman with a lippy four year old and thought ahah, now I can share with her some of my new-found wisdom and what do I find, PAFC dispensing solid sensible advice without a 'aha' or 'wouldn't be great if we could all be spoilt all the time' (I actually have some sympathy with that last statement). 'Send her to her room with a flea in her ear?' NO. 'Raise your voice'? NO. What were you thinking of?
I feel quite let down, actually.

pedro Mon 07-May-07 20:21:12

well she was a poof fgs

my dd isa madam
well fakring dont let her be

ahundredtimes Mon 07-May-07 20:59:30

lol @ poof.
Might start new thread, called 'encapsulation thread' - your last would be the first post, swiftly followed by 'Panty Liners - for drips' etc etc.

pedro Tue 08-May-07 09:56:32

hwo is it going guys

singersgirl Tue 08-May-07 10:11:01

Are the lessons starting again? We are not having much success with DS1 (I have heard of a book called "The Explosive Child" which I think might suit him) but tried just listening this morning as DS2 droned on and on about how much he didn't want to go to school and how evil it was and how we could teach him at home.

I have re-read the tips and would appreciate a summary of all the chapters before we move on!

Pruni Tue 08-May-07 10:16:55

Message withdrawn

ahundredtimes Tue 08-May-07 11:50:38

Singersgirl - In the spirit of encapsulation; here is the digest version of what has been covered so far (with blinding results):
Accept your kids feelings.
Don't offer advice, say 'aha' 'uhuh' instead (we're all really really good at this bit).
Give feelings a name ('you're depressed and lonely' and give them a fantasy, 'but you'd like to be outrageously popular and ecstatic all the time'')
Don't nag, keep it simple, state the facts ie: 'ds2s neck is in ds1 hands' and then say how this makes you feel, 'tired and a little unnerved.'
Have alternatives to punishment - am a little unclear on this bit. We skipped it frankly, but there was something about a shopping trolley.
Encourage autonomy.
Never say NO. Have alternatives (stating the facts again). Can I dress up now? Dinner will be ready in 5 minutes.
Also something quite good about saying, when you're really stuck I think, 'Let me think about that.'

Does this help?

singersgirl Tue 08-May-07 12:05:57

LOL at your encapsulation, 100times (and thank you - I think I got a bit lost at the punishment/consequences part). I particularly like the bit about the strangling.

Right, am raring to go (though have to go to the gym first to make me feel like the sort of mother who can achieve).

emsiewill Wed 09-May-07 13:13:35

Thank god my boss is away today, cos I'm sitting here weeping with laughter at this thread. I have been impressed by the results you are all getting, though, so have ordered the book (and the teen one) through the school link link (iyswim).

Please keep it up.

climbingwalls Wed 09-May-07 13:24:08

I have had some great results with chapter 4! especially the not saying no bit.

Here's an example:
DS "can I have an icecream?" (I know, the boy is obsessed, it's a reoccuring theme)

Me "You had an ice cream yesterday"

DS "Yes can I have an ice cream today?"

Me "We're going to have some lunch in a bit"

DS "but I want an ICE CREEEEEAAAAM!"

Me "I know you do, ice creams are nice"

DS "I want one now"

Me "Look at the lifeboat!"

DS "Ooooh the tractor is pulling it to the sea!"

Me "shall we go and watch?"

DS runs off happily.

Rather depends on having a lifeboat handy though!

climbingwalls Wed 09-May-07 13:38:36

well yes! I know where you can get one, although any large vehicle will do if you have a DS

It was just the distraction I think that worked, after talking about what he wanted but me not just saying "No you're not having one", which would have made him too cross to be distracted by anything...

EllensIroningPileNeedsDoing Wed 09-May-07 13:53:32

My books arrived this morning but I am reading my Sensitive Child one first for my fragile eldest but will peruse this one asap

v funny thread

EllensIroningPileNeedsDoing Wed 09-May-07 13:53:45


Pruni Wed 09-May-07 18:16:56

Message withdrawn

Pruni Wed 09-May-07 18:17:37

Message withdrawn

climbingwalls Wed 09-May-07 20:42:00

Just wait pruni, next week your ds will be talking to you like that
I have my ds saying things like "I'm very disappointed in your behaviour mummy"


"it makes me sad when you don't let me watch the Simpsons, you should let me watch it so I don't be sad"

also had

"when you wash my hair it makes me very cross mummy, it's not nice to make people cross, do you want to say sorry now?"


FrannyandZooey Wed 09-May-07 20:44:22

Sheesh Pruni you are parenting superstar

I am still stuck on the dwarves in chapter 2

sophable Wed 09-May-07 20:50:04

at this thread.

frenchleave Thu 10-May-07 21:33:27

Not having much success here, maybe because my DDs are older and don't fall for dwarf-based distraction techniques and don't fit in shopping trolleys

ANYWAY... DD1 (9) often comes home with "she's not my friend any more" type whinges that have been going on for ages and I'm at a total loss. Tonight she was in a bit of stew about it, so I tried the mmm-ing and aha-ing, and "so you're a bit confused about who your friends are", and she said yes, but it didn't seem to help much, and she certainly didn't come up with her own strategy.

So am I allowed to offer advice, or wot?

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Sat 12-May-07 22:44:16

god re readign this stilll makes me lol

terrywogan Sat 12-May-07 23:41:05

yeah, thanks for hte link...

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 15:01:30

ok chapter 5 comign up

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 15:02:02


ahundredtimes Mon 14-May-07 15:02:33


LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 15:03:51

over prasie is worhtless
and can make you think peopela re ktking the piss, threatening( ie you wre so goo in that meeting - you worry what will i be like ext time, maekyou go into self denial " oh this old hting" etcet)

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 15:06:23

helpful praise comes in tow parts

1. the adult descrivess wiht appreciation what he sees or feels

2. the child on eharing hte description is able to prsie himeslef

ok kid ocmes back form nursery wiht a scribblly picture

kid" is it good"

norlmally youd say " oh yes it is

new way

"well i can see you went do dot dot ans squiggle"

kid " yeah" ( oh dea poor language imo)

i say" who every did you think to do that

kid " cos i am an aritst"

( and sorely slf deluded id add in at that point"

more egs coming up afetr school

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 15:07:22

adn there si a line to rival " dont be fresh"
youll LOVE It

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 15:50:14

not a snif

i haev lost my allure

Rantum Mon 14-May-07 15:56:04

PMSL til i had to change my knickers at this thread

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 16:12:36

no one wants me
wheres 100
she begged me to start

Blandmum Mon 14-May-07 16:21:05

I like the way you posted this new information Codders.

It makes me feel very challenged.

long pause, and I'm ready to make the hmm noises

dinosaur Mon 14-May-07 16:23:10

Can I ask a serious question?

How should I respond to a rather unexpected statement from DS2 (aged nearly 6, too clever for own good, drama queen) - "Mummy, can we have a serious talk about this? I need you to go and have a chat to my teacher. I don't like school any more" (said with much eye-rolling and general over-acting).

Seriously, how do I respond?

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 16:26:01

you say

and wait for him to elaborate

he goes on "its crap nad htey all pick theri noses"
you say" i guess that makes you feel... unhygenic" ( please rponounce american way)

he goes on yes i do

you say well what do you want me to do as the law its thta oyu haev to go *( theres a hole section on doing deals i skimmed over - will goand read)

dinosaur Mon 14-May-07 16:26:49

Okay. Well, I did say the bit about how you have to go cos it's the law and they'll put mummy in prison if you don't .

glassslipper Mon 14-May-07 16:28:19

I'm ordering tonight so will be behind everyone else but am watching evryone's comment with interest...even yours littlemouse.

glassslipper Mon 14-May-07 16:29:25

How do I deal with DD1 (3.2) who says I dont want to go to bed. I want to sleep with mummy & daddy in their bed. (we've never let her btw). We've just been saying 'but your room is lovely and there is no room in ours etc'

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 16:29:58

i always do that too
id love someone to aha ahum me now i knwo the trick
and id say nowt
like" i hate suasages" 9dont)

and htey say " aha"
and i say no more
btu htye are eaten up inside wanting to knwo mroe and in hte end willl HAVE to ask me

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 16:30:30

glass your mistake is to even enter into discussion abotu it
distract and chaneg subjuect
" oh look theres a badger wiht a gun"
shodul work

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 16:32:15

somteitmes it must be recodngised, kdis tlak crap

and whne they do you DOnt listen

they missed this bit out of the book i htink

Kif Mon 14-May-07 16:32:30

Oooh - I'm lurkin', Cod. Keep going.

Btw - I tried the 'empathetic' thing on the w'end - 'You must be very disappointed, darling - you now realise you wanted the Nemo balloon, and don't like your dolphin balloon any more'. It earned me a stern talking to from Dh about how it's not good to be sarcastic to a 3 year old .

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 16:33:04

yes dh is right
you were crap

Blandmum Mon 14-May-07 16:34:07

So when dd tells me that the reason her book bag was stil in the hall was that it had 'fallen out of the car'

I'm allowed to say 'Lalalalalala not listening'???

Insted of saying, 'Don't be so daft, what did it do, fly up the path and throufgh the front door then?' as I did

emsiewill Mon 14-May-07 16:38:56

Carry on, carry on. I have ordered the books, but am thinking of this as a study group to work alongside my reading of the book when it gets here...

glassslipper Mon 14-May-07 16:39:45

lol @ badger with gun ! Not sure she'll fall for that but will try and equally entertaining distraction <<must think, must think, must think before tonight>>

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 16:45:45

i do ehar a lof parents actualy takign seriously what their kdis say
she is playing for time slipper

ds3 says" i dont want to go to nursery" every day
so i say" take na apple"
ok says he and off we go

glassslipper Mon 14-May-07 16:48:00

I know clogs. we bought her a clog and she's good at looking at it and running around to make sure she is in bed at the 'right time' which is great but then she says she doesnt like her room/ wants the light on/ wants to sleep in our bed etc. I know its cos she doesnt want to sleep but it is really hard not getting drawn into it. will defo try the distraction thing though.

glassslipper Mon 14-May-07 16:48:14

lol. we bought her a clock

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 16:49:17

tlel ehr ( old teacher trick) she can make tow commetns after you say go to sleep

then finished oyur mouths isnt working.
walk outa nd tell her off frimly if she ocmes out
haev resortedt o mag outtsied roombefore and glowered at ds3( he was about 2 though)

ahundredtimes Mon 14-May-07 17:45:58

Might be out of practice, but this is getting confusing now. Don't say 'that's a great picture' say 'I see you wanted to try and replicate a typical suburban scene with a house and grass and an authentically unoriginal interpretation of the sun?' and then they say, 'that's right Mom, I'm going to be a town planner when I grow up.'

I've got a sinking feeling Chapter 5 is going to be like that shopping trolley chapter. But okay will give it a go. Don't hold me responsible though if I start knocking dcs about because they're practising horrid, smug self-praise.

(What is it with this kid anyways? One minute he's an engineer, then it's all guitar, guitar, guitar, and now he's an artist. Bloody flibbertygibbit isn't he? Probably something to do with his half mad mother asking him questions all the time).

BTW, umming and ahhhing and all the really good stuff in the first chapters still working a treat at 100 house.

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 17:46:36

lol at town planner

kds have no artwork to show otherwise id try it out

ahundredtimes Mon 14-May-07 17:50:51

glasslipper - Clogs keeps having these moments where she hands out sensible advice which is seriously off-message. This is what you say ' 'wouldn't it be great if we could all sleep together all the time. We'd none of us have our own beds. (fantasy section, then state the problem But there wouldn't be room for us all and we'd all get cross with each other at about 4 in the morning. (how does this make you feel?) I'd be very sad at not sleeping properly and I'd shout at you all day and refuse to make you any breakfast.' Then she'll go 'OK fair enough. Better kip on my own'
Obviously if this doesn't work, you'll have to bring in the badger.

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 17:51:13


ahundredtimes Mon 14-May-07 17:58:38

Okay, so what's the line to rival 'don't be fresh' (this phrase is bandied about by me on a daily basis now). Think might need it if dcs really do fall for all this self-praise malarky.

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 17:59:29

ok ds3 is poorly so will bung him in beda nd send ds2s mate home
put hte sheets on our bed then settle down fro a good read and tyope session
youLL LOVE IT 100

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 18:00:57

oh adn 100 the lst post to slipper was form chapter 5 so dont be fresh

glassslipper Mon 14-May-07 18:10:32

loving the tips.

ahundredtimes Mon 14-May-07 18:12:37

Don't give me that. That Mom never sat outside her kids room glowering at him. Never.
Go see to ds, I shall go cook and try to imagine what phrase could possibly be. Don't be stale? Is this thread stale now?

Brief trial:
You practised the piano. You put your fingers on the keys and pressed them down to make a noise.

DS2 Yes! I did, didn't I. (very pleased with himself).

We're all going mad.

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 18:26:34

no I Sat glowering!

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 18:29:11

ok egs of good and bad priase

bad _ 2 you cleaned your rooom what a good girl"


"I see a lto of work has been ogin gon here - jackets are hung up and everythgin is in the right place."

" its a pleasure to wlk into this rooom"


this scarf you gae me is very nice


right=" look att hese lovly rich colours and fringing"

"and its realyl wide too ti ll keep me warms on a cold day"

ahundredtimes Mon 14-May-07 18:29:21

Quite. Not in Chapter Five then, was it. Perhaps it should be.

Chapter Five (part two) Glowering.

Parent glowers at child.
Child glowers back.

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 18:30:10

ok here it is

" well done gill you disocvered that three cans of corna re better then tow of th mroe epxensive one"

Jill ( grinning) " yes i got the smarts"

(WTF IS THAT?????)

ahundredtimes Mon 14-May-07 18:30:57

Parent in elaborate scarf WITH NOTABLE FRINGING glowers at child.
Ok. I get this. I'm going to practise. I need presents. I need someone to tidy their room.

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 18:31:31

so no mroe" yes dear its lovely "when faced wiht three redline

oh no describe

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 18:32:03

ok no forget he glowering thta was me being real not the book being ..well, weird

ahundredtimes Mon 14-May-07 18:32:17

Think I might be in love. Don't care if this thread dies a death now I've got that.
She got the smarts. I got the smarts. You got the smarts. This scarf has really got the smarts.

What does it mean?

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 18:32:47

i ahev homweork excercises for you( or rather the book has)

ok girl in new dress in ront of you

what do you say

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 18:33:04

loli LOVE i got the smarts
may google it

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 18:33:52

yes it seems real peoepl really say it

ahundredtimes Mon 14-May-07 18:34:48

Also, what's with the budgeting on the corn? Who needs three cans of corn? She aint got really good smarts has she?

LittleMouseWithCLogsOn Mon 14-May-07 18:34:52

callign lurkers

are oyu still wiht us
cso theres more on praise