OK so what am I doing wrong here?

[Enid]

dd2 wakes twice a night EVERY night atm. She is just 4.

she takes AAAAAAAAAAAAGES to get off to sleep unless she is absolutely dropping. She will come downstairs two or three times with some random excuse. Then she wakes twice a night in a pickle, wanting to come in to our bed. I take her back and settle her in her bed, she usually dozes for 20 mins then comes back in. Her crying usually wakes the baby - thank goodness not dd1 as she is such a sound sleeper. This has been going on for months now - occasionally she manages a week without waking. Sticker charts etc don't seem to work as she doesn't really seem to be awake at these times or know what she is doing. She always says she is scared.

On Friday night dh lost it a bit with her - and tbh so did I.

Not sure how to tackle it! Any advice gratefully received.

[Dottydot]

Hmm. She's 4, so she's old enough to understand that she needs to stay in bed even if she's awake. I'd be at the 'losing it' stage by now as well! If rewards don't work, will the opposite - i.e. she misses out on something treat-wise if she gets up again for no reason?

Does that sound very harsh? I'm just thinking about how I'd handle it with ds1.

You could get her a simple digital clock and say if the number at the beginning isn't a 7, she needs to stay in bed (unless she needs the loo!). This works with ds1. He's not allowed to bother us unless a 7 is at the beginning (and at the weekend it has to be a 7 then a 1 - so we get a 10 minute lie in!!).

[jeangenie]

will watch this with interest as we have the same issue. you have my sympathies, you really do

[MrsBadger]

No clues on the coming downstairs I'm afraid, but for the midnight wakings can you tell if she's saying she's scared because it's good for a cuddle, or is she really scared?

Would a nightlight, or, indeed a digital clock be any good, as it means when she wakes up she's not quite 'alone in the dark'?
You could also try one of those musical nightlights meant for tinies - if she wakes up she can put the light and music on and it may soothe her enough to help her forget whatever the bad dream was and drop off again. Shouldn't be so loud it wakes dd3 either.

[Sugarmagnolia]

Yes, I think a nice little night-light or something similar might be a really good idea. At 4 her little mind can probably imagine all sorts of monsters that her 3-year-old brain never thought of!

[Enid]

we leave a small light on all night

a musical thing is a good idea

she is obsessed with story tapes but she can't press the (old and knackered) buttons on the tape machine herself - she used to ask us to do it and we refused point blank as she woke us up every 25 mins when the tape ran out

[Enid]

digital clock very good idea

in fact she did ask for one and I just sort of ignored her, as you do

[puddytats]

I have put a picture of myself and DH on the wall next to his bed so that when ds wakes up he can see mummy and daddy are looking after him still. Before this he was still waking up every night and trying to come into our bed (he is 3), now if he wakes he tells me in the morning that he just needed to check mummy and daddy were still on his wall!!
I had tried bribery, sticker charts, the works and this is the only thing that has worked for me.

[Dottydot]

Yes, go for it! We're in negotiations with ds1 to let us sleep until a 7 and a 2 at weekends - but he's not daft and thinks that's waaaay to long to have to wait..!

[ScummyMummy]

I seem to remember I'm a lot meaner than you, Enid, but I'd be trying to remain calm enough to do the return to bed as many times as it takes thing for when she comes downstairs. T Byron recommends it, I think. The first time they get up you say calmly but firmly "Back to bed, darling girl". Then "bedtime". Then you refuse to engage at all in communication terms- no words, no eye contact- but calmly lead her back to bed every time she gets up. I really believe this kind of pattern is usually a wanting attention thing, even though it's sometimes initially triggered by a nightmare or fears. If that's so, any attention she gets- even you and dh losing it a bit- will be better than none. The crying thing is so much harder if it's waking dd3 though. Again, I'd be tempted to leave her to it, once initial conmfort has been offered if it seems like a genuine bad dream but I can see that leaving her to wake the baby would not be on... Does she get any protected time with you/dh on her own? One of my biggest failings as a parent is that the boys rarely do and I am sure that sometimes triggers them to behave in ways that ensure that they get at least some individual attention. One of them wakes up v early for morning chats, for example.

[Enid]

she is a very very needy child I think I could spend all day playing with her and it wouldnt be enough! Still, she has been nothing but delighted with the new baby so I guess SOMETHNG has to be disrupted.

I would feel weird doing the no communication thing as it is really not my style.. but will try an Enid-ized version of it.

[nailpolish]

my dh had a great idea which works (mostly)

we bought one of these plug in timer things that folks use to switch their lights on and off while they are on holiday etc

we plugged it in in dd's bedroom and put a plug in nightlight on it

we set the timer to come on at 6am which was the time she got up at every morning and it was doing me head in

we moved the time forward 5 mins every few days and by the end of 3 weeks dd was still in bed at 7am!

we had told her it was time to get up when the light went on

she runs through in the morning shouting "my lights on!"

as for getting up through the night, she still does that but its brief as i just herd her back to bed without saying anything. i hope one days she gets bored, but i cant see it!

i dont have a solution to that one

good luck

[Jackie2kids]

No help just sympathy my kids are both lousy sleepers. DS definately got worse when we had DD (he was only 20mnths though). Also DS (now 3.5) wakes everynight and comes into our bed, but he is convinced we wake him, I honestly think he doesn't know he's doing it. J

[Tortington]

i'm with scummy.

they want interaction.

at that age they are like dogs wanting to be stroked - wanting to affirm your love at every juncture.

apply the same principle you would to naughty behaviour, don't engage.

[jeangenie]

but is it an all round "bad thing" to want or need or give affirmation of love?

if that's why my DD is doing it (not speaking for Enid here) i kind of feel it is my responsibility to give some affirmation

even if it is a right royal pain in the

(think this is why I suffer from similar behaviour though, I'm a bit soft if I think they are doing it cos they need to know they are loved and never come down as hard as I know some do, although I do stern quite well)

[Tortington]

different horses for different courses.

i am of the opinion that for a child to get an unbroken nights sleep, to get into a routine, to not disrupt the rest of the household, and to give me time to do other things will all round benefit my child.

i am of the opinion that children have to learn that they cannot have everything when they want it. Including my affection.

there are times for a kiss and a cuddle and its not after bedtime.

[Twiglett]

do you really mind if she climbs into bed with you in the night? maybe letting her do it when she wants to will make her realise its ok to just sleep because you'll be there

my almost 6 year old will still climb into bed with us .. but only once in a while

as for coming downstairs once in bed that would be a very strong NO from me .. there is never any excuse .. ask me in the morning

[nailpolish]

i agree with custardo

you what is best for the whole family - not just for one particular child in the middle of the night

you have to think of the family as a whole

sleeping in your own bed is important IMO

[Enid]

god I hear you custardo

I think the ability to sleep happily all night in your own bed is a great gift to give a child

but dd2 begs to differ

dh lost it and smacked her on friday night - something neither of us have ever done

thats how bad it is here

(he does not feel bad about it btw - I dont expect him to either)

[tortoiseSHELL]

You poor thing Enid, lack of sleep is the worst thing!

Ds1 has had problems sleeping, and he has a CD player in his room which he can put story CDs on - I think you said dd2 liked story tapes. He does use those to get himself off to bed. He's gone through that 'coming downstairs all the time' which drove me MAD - so annoying when you want some evening!

[Enid]

yes I think..THINK... a cd player might be the answer

she can easily press the buttons on dd1s cd player

but they are about £40 and it may not work...

[Saturn74]

My two have got digital clock radios with CD players built in.
They were quite cheap a few years back.
We set their alarms for 7:30am, and they were not allowed in to us before that.
If they woke up in the night and wanted to listen to their story CDs, they could, but they had to stay in bed.
They have always both been quite into gadgets, so this worked better than sticker charts etc for us.

[MrsBadger]

can you borrow one? would dd1 let her borrow hers for a couple of nights, then get her her own if it works?

[Hayls]

I got dd a small CD player/ radio in Asda and I think it was about £13, certainly not much more than that. She doesn't listen to it during the night but goes off to sleep with it playing (she's almost 3)

[nailpolish]

great idea mrsB

can you borrow one enid?

[tealady]

Is she in a room on her own or sharing with dd1? If not sharing would you consider doing this for a trial period? My dd (7) has had various spells of fearfulness at night time (shadows in the corner, horrible pictures in my head, too hot, too cold, scared etc etc)

We have found that a spell of sharing with ds (9) cures the problem although they usually eventually return to their own rooms.

Definitely get a digital clock (very cheap in Tesco etc). Also you can get tapes of 'white noise'. My ds loves having a fan on all night because the sound is comforting.

The trouble is they sense your irritation and in a way this makes them more needy... hope you solve it soon.