Smacking

[MarcoMum]

Just seen a BBC report claiming:

Comments on the British parenting website, Mumsnet, were almost uniformly opposed, with many readers describing it as "abhorrent", "bullying" and "inexcusable". "Does anyone smack their children anymore?" one asked. "And if so, is anyone brave enough to admit it, to explain why?"

I wanted to see if this could be possible on a responsible site.... and thankfully found a varied level of opinion...... which of course suits the variety that exists in our species.

For myself, I view the people who view "the loving discipline of children" as being 'blinkered individuals', who wish to impose their viewpoint on others...... even to the extent of calling for laws to support their position :(

I speak from the position of having brought up my son, coached 'kids rugby' for a number of years, and run a Table Tennis club mainly for the kids (now youths) of the village, for the past ten years.

What I've learned is that kids flourish best when they can rely upon basic rules.
Games are better, when everybody gets a fair chance...... even to a point where a word in the ear 'to go easy' on a lesser mortal..... introduces 'reflection' and works wonders for group morale.

.... But it's all about consistency from the get go.
(when we get it wrong from time to time; an apology is great, and the kids always accept failure, even from adults...... it's part of life.)

So smacking......
I think I smacked my son no more that 4 times (I can remember 3 occasions), up to the age of 5 - after that, his brain was sufficiently developed to understand rationale, along with knowledge that, to live with people, there are limits as to how one behaves. The two, going hand in hand.

In effect..... prior to, and during the formation of the concious brain, for my son, it was necessary to indicate that certain behaviour was not acceptable..... and words couldn't do it.

Incident 1 - Tantrum in the shower
This was dangerous.... it was very slippery (he was close to 3).
He got a very suitable whack on the backside.
It will have hurt.... but no more than all those other falls and scrapes that are part of learning 'what should and should not be done'.
...... We had no more tantrums afterwards....... None!
Note: Mum did what was correctly required, by being lovingly concerned about the smack....... but agreed that not only was the situation dangerous, but that we didn't want our child to believe that tantrums are an okay way of life.
(how many kids have we seen throwing tantrums, even into their teens?)

Incident 2 - Throwing stones at cars
The first time, he was around 3 1/2 years - he threw a stone at our car, and smashed the headlamp.
This was big money, that we were short of.
Stupidly, I didn't give him a whack (we are all human).
He got a bollocking, a good explanation on how this hurt us badly, and that one should never throw stones at people or cars.

What a waste of time that was......... he was just too young to fully understand.
Clearly the words and bollocking just didn't have an impact, because....
.... six months later.... right in front of me.... he threw a stone at a passing car.
By the time the driver had braked and slammed it into reverse, my sons trousers were on the way down..... and he got two good ones as the driver screeched to a halt.
On seeing this, he didn't even bother getting out of the car - thankfully he just drove away, presumably understanding that the kid was at least learning that 'this wrong'.
Never again did he throw stones at cars!

Incident 3 - Hitting a child at the bus stop
He would be around 4, waiting for the school bus.
It was trousers down again and two decent whacks (with the words ringing in the ear: "you don't do that").
All the mums were sympathetic...... one admitted that she thought that she wouldn't have been able to do that.....
..... AND NOTE: one of her kids was a right little bully, that made life hell for my son, for two years!!!!! (he was two years older).

(Maybe there were only 3 occasions when I delivered a smack)

Did it stop him from getting into trouble?
No....... on on two other occasions, he was forced to go to somebody... knock on their door, and apologise for doing something daft..... and doing a bit of sweeping up for them as punishment/compensation - just kids being kids........ but beyond the age of smacking.

So how did it turn out for him?

Well, I can tell you as a fact, that I've had more people than I can remember, actually stop me in the street to tell me 'what a great kid is Oliver' and 'what a good job I'd done, bringing him up' (wonderful!)

As for our relationship (he's nearly 17 now)... we kiss each other at least twice a day, and we do so many things together.
He still gets bollockings....... he still needs guidance...... annoyance is always explained.
It's now mostly down to his natural age to challenge his Dad...... it's life.... we discuss it, and we both understand what is happening (he still challenges me LOL :) ).

Thank God he's started to beat me at ping pong (as I'd told him he would)....... but also TG I'm still able to beat him...... though for how long

Moral of the story
Don't wait to start guiding your kids.
It begins when they begin gaining conciousness....... and it doesn't stop.
Don't wake up one day and ask "why don't my kids listen to me?"

If they are already 7 ..... then it's touch and go (possibly too late, but worth trying).
If they are 9, and you think you can jump in....... my guess is that you've blown it, and you'd better hope you've got good youth club leaders, who'll step into the void.

From the beginning: play with them, educate them, and guide them...... even if it means punishing them....... but it has to be from the beginning.

...... and then they'll go and leave you (OMG)!
It's not happened yet for me......... but it's coming.

At least, I'll have no regrets.
I'll have done the best I could.

....... and smacking?
That was just a minor parenting tool, as used by most species, to help ease the child forward into life.

As for banning it?
For me..... it verges on the 'abuse of children', preventing good parental guidance, advocated by people who never had need to use it (lucky them), or by people who will later regret their lack of interest, as they reap the seeds that they have sown ;)

[BictoriaVeckham]

Would you smack an elderly relative with dementia if she had a tantrum in the shower? Or your 89 year old grandad who threw a stone at a car?

Why is it different for a child who's brain is still developing?

[goshhhhhh]

So point of your post is what? To feel smug?
For what it is worth my parents never smacked me & I'm ok. My father believed it was a sign of weakness. I've never smacked mine & they are v v good - get complemented on their manners etc. But then mine would never have thought of picking up a stone at 4.....

[SolasEile]

Hmm...

[LittleLionMansMummy]

Yes OP, I've read a few smacking threads on here and the vast majority are indeed opposed to it. With very good reason.

[fattymcfatfat]

im with gosh my DS wouldnt think of picking up a stone to throw at a car and he is now six.
he has never been smacked and he is a very well behaved little boy. I geg complemented on how well behaved he is. I was 17 when I had him, still a child myself but had more self control and maturity to think that hurting my child in any way would be effective.

[GotToBeInItToWinIt]

Well done OP, where shall I deliver your 'perfect parent' award?

[GotToBeInItToWinIt]

My brother and I were never ever smacked. We also never ever threw a stone at a car (or at anything). We wouldn't have dared.

[ThinkIveBeenHacked]

If you have to spend so so much time and effort trying to justify something, surely that means it was the wrong thing to do?

[MarcoMum]

My goodness.... some people have misunderstood the post completely.
Or did they even try to understand it?

I didn't write it to be smug, or gain any award.
I wrote it to show that you can have a loving relationship, whilst maintaining limits of behaviour from the off..... and that might, on the odd occasion involve a smack.

As I said.... kids are varied.
If a kid doesn't cross the boundaries, then that is obviously fine.

I also wrote it to point out that a law or a rule can't be made to cover such parenting ie. making corporal punishment illegal.

I felt that the BBC article was pushing a failed agenda, and were using mumsnet as a crutch...... and incorrectly, as I found when reading other posts on the subject.

So I thought I would add to the debate.
I wrote a comprehensive post, not to justify something, but rather to highlight the factors at play.

Otherwise it would have just been another paragraph of "I think we should be allowed to smack our kids"....... a bit pointless, when that's been said before.

A bit like all the responses..... none of which took up any of the points raised.

Better if everybody just repeats the mantra....... no need to be concerned about whether it is right or wrong for different people.

If anybody puts forward any reasoned argument...... don't try to discuss the reasoning....... just troll it

[CultureSucksDownWords]

Right. So to summarise - based on the one example of your son turning out basically ok so far at 17, you are happy to conclude that smacking is an effective form of discipline.

Also, that it wouldn't be possible to have a law preventing parents from smacking, as this would inevitably lead to parents being preventing from effectively parenting (so 'child abuse' by default), and a complete collapse in society as a result. In your opinion.

I disagree - smacking is unnecessary, ineffective, counter productive, and morally wrong. There is a wide variety of evidence that shows the negative impact of smacking. There are a wide variety of parenting strategies to use that don't involve violence, which have been shown to be effective.

I also find it ridiculous that you are asserting that anyone who doesn't smack either has particularly obedient children or will have problems soon as their child grows up.

Parents don't need to be told by you to guide their children from birth - that's what the large majority of parents aim to do, of course it is. Quite a lot of people manage to do that without having to resort to smacking as a parenting 'tool'.

[NickyEds]

Incident 3 - Hitting a child at the bus stop

Surely even someone pro-smacking can see the idiocy of hitting a child as a punishment for hitting a child????? Smack Smack -"you shouldn't hit people". How is that teaching him that it's wrong to hit people????

beyond the age of smacking.

I'd be interested to know what age you think this is? When they could hit you back? 10? 20?

I don't want my child to misbehave. He will. When he does I want him to learn that whatever it is he's done is wrong and why. I want him to stop doing it because he understands that, it hurts someone else, or it's rude, or costs us money not because he's afraid I'll hit him.

[cottageinthecountry]

OP - you are stating your opinion as some kind of gospel truth.

Of course your child couldn't understand words, but there are other ways of showing signs.

Perhaps this is an indication of your lack of thoughtfulness, you don't seem to understand alternatives or compromise.

That's what you've taught your children probably, don't think things through, just do what suits and justify your argument later. Well done.

[Hubb]

Basically, it seems you did a good job of raising your son on the whole. You made some mistakes as we all do (including the smacking). You don't seem to view the smacks as mistakes though which is sad for me. Violence is never the right way.

[PeppermintCrayon]

You joined just to post a catalogue of incidents in which you smacked your son with his trousers down?

Look, either you are an actual troll or you are emulating one without meaning to. Reported, either way.

[LittleLionMansMummy]

My 4yo was playing my dh up at bedtime last night. Dh was being exceptionally patient because he knew ds was tired. From downstairs all i could hear was ds shouting at dh, screaming, objecting to everything he did, however he did it, generally being very badly behaved. Guess what? I went upstairs, used my stern voice reserved for bad behaviour, told him to go and calm down for 4 minutes in his bedroom and told him in no uncertain terms that if he continued to be rude and disrespectful to his dad after he'd calmed down he would be going to bed straight away with no bedtime story. Guess what? Peace resumed almost immediately without resorting to smacking. Smacking to me is one of two things: 1. Anger and loss of control or 2. an failure to instil mutual respect from birth without the threat of violence. What are children going to learn from this? That when they don't get what they want in life they can threaten or actually pursue active violence to get the result they wish to achieve, rather than talk through their problems?

I was smacked two or three times by my mum. My parents are brilliant parents and I remain close to them. But my mum freely admits that on those occasions she was particularly stressed (her mum had just died) and I probably hadn't deserved it had she only listened and talked to me. As for me, well yes I turned out ok and have not been irreparably damaged by it. But the memory of the injustice and unfairness of it has stayed with me, particularly as I too was grieving for my nan at the time.

[catkind]

You don't know how your son feels about it.

I was smacked a similar number of times to your son. My parents are lovely and loving and meant the best for us. I was extremely well behaved as a child, high achiever, any parent's dream. I was also terrified of authority, to the extent I'd get in trouble at school because I was too scared to speak up and defend myself. I have difficulty dealing with people I perceive as authority figures to this day. My parents have no idea and I'd never tell them, but I think smacking harmed me.

[CultureSucksDownWords]

Ok, I'll have another go....

I disagree with your point of view about the first two points that I summarised. No, I don't agree that smacking is something that should be accepted as a parenting strategy that is effective and appropriate. I've explained why, and you disagree. So there we are.

I also disagree that a change in the law would mean hampering parents ability to parent their children. Preventing parents from using smacking as a method of parenting does not equate to child abuse by default. Parents would be required to find a suitable alternative parenting approach that doesn't involve violence, of which there are several to choose from.

What I "made up" was an attempt to summarise your position on the dire consequences that would follow if a ban on smacking was introduced. I'm glad you feel that my summary was wrong, and there wouldn't be a collapse in society due to appalling behaviour from all the children that should have had it smacked out of them.

Raising your hand and then deliberately striking your child is a violent act. Your aim is to hurt them, sufficiently to emphasise your displeasure or upset. How smacking cannot be described as a violent act is beyond me. Just because other people are more violent to their children doesn't make smacking not violent. Also, your intention behind the act of smacking doesn't matter - the act itself is violent, what you're thinking when you're doing it doesn't change that.

Why would you post about smacking, and write at length about your opinion of another mum who didn't smack, if not to make the point that you think more parents should use smacking? What was the point of that anecdote otherwise? That this one mum should have smacked her child, but not anyone else? Why would that be worth mentioning unless you were trying to draw a more general conclusion?

Finally, if you agree that there are better or as good parenting strategies than smacking, why would anyone want to use smacking when they don't have to? Surely no one actually wants to have to smack their children?

[fattymcfatfat]

wow OP you have basically told people in your update as well that we are not good parents because we refuse to hurt our children... twisted? no?

[MarcoMum]

fattymcfatfat Tue 17-Mar-15 09:00:58
wow OP you have basically told people in your update as well that we are not good parents because we refuse to hurt our children...hmm twisted? no?

Do you really believe what you've just posted?
Do you really believe that I could ever wish that you hurt your children?
AND......... I never made any blanket claims of a specific method of guiding our children (unlike some on this forum).
So now I'm twisted........ just another example of........

catkind Tue 17-Mar-15 00:43:18
You don't know how your son feels about it.

I was smacked a similar number of times to your son. My parents are lovely and loving and meant the best for us. I was extremely well behaved as a child, high achiever, any parent's dream. I was also terrified of authority, to the extent I'd get in trouble at school because I was too scared to speak up and defend myself. I have difficulty dealing with people I perceive as authority figures to this day. My parents have no idea and I'd never tell them, but I think smacking harmed me.

I hear you.
I would honestly suggest that every child is different.
My son has no problems with being reprimanded in the past...... and he was brought up to communicate with authority on a level playing field.

He has no problems mingling with adults at a party, or anywhere.
Some of this must be innate ability (I reckon), no different to some people being good at certain sports....... for others it's harder.

However what I have truly learned (and what is wonderful), is that non-sporting people can be taught to play sport...... and when I started, I never knew that would be the outcome.

So I think that kids can be helped with their confidence levels.

For yourself..... only you know if the smacking harmed you...... how terrible if this is the case.
....... but had you been introduced to adult interaction from an early age?
Some kids just get shoved aside.... their views and conversation unwelcome.
It doesn't mean that such parents are unloving..... only that they aren't helping the development of their children... particularly if one is naturally shy.

I honestly think that it is possible to be a totally loving parent (it's a high priority) yet still fail at being a good thoughtful parent.

CultureSucksDownWords Tue 17-Mar-15 01:47:22
Ok, I'll have another go....

I disagree with your point of view about the first two points that I summarised. No, I don't agree that smacking is something that should be accepted as a parenting strategy that is effective and appropriate. I've explained why, and you disagree. So there we are.

I also disagree that a change in the law would mean hampering parents ability to parent their children. Preventing parents from using smacking as a method of parenting does not equate to child abuse by default. Parents would be required to find a suitable alternative parenting approach that doesn't involve violence, of which there are several to choose from.

What I "made up" was an attempt to summarise your position on the dire consequences that would follow if a ban on smacking was introduced. I'm glad you feel that my summary was wrong, and there wouldn't be a collapse in society due to appalling behaviour from all the children that should have had it smacked out of them.

Raising your hand and then deliberately striking your child is a violent act. Your aim is to hurt them, sufficiently to emphasise your displeasure or upset. How smacking cannot be described as a violent act is beyond me. Just because other people are more violent to their children doesn't make smacking not violent. Also, your intention behind the act of smacking doesn't matter - the act itself is violent, what you're thinking when you're doing it doesn't change that.

Why would you post about smacking, and write at length about your opinion of another mum who didn't smack, if not to make the point that you think more parents should use smacking? What was the point of that anecdote otherwise? That this one mum should have smacked her child, but not anyone else? Why would that be worth mentioning unless you were trying to draw a more general conclusion?

Finally, if you agree that there are better or as good parenting strategies than smacking, why would anyone want to use smacking when they don't have to? Surely no one actually wants to have to smack their children?

Thanks for having another go :)

We agree to disagree on the first two paragraphs.
I accept your explanation of what I called 'spin'.

We do need to disagree on our definitions of 'violence'.
I've seen violence, and know what it means...... I would never be violent towards my son..... it's unthinkable.
The term 'violence' has been misappropriated...... wiping out it's true meaning IMHO.

RE the mum who didn't smack....... oh cmon....... it was a short quip..... a true part of the story...... a digression to the main point...... but it happened.
I did not write at length about it..... rather it was a footnote (and an interesting one by coincidence).

Your final point...... more reasonably put, and less threatening...
.... hmmm nobody wanted to face up to that point eh?
About the threatening abusive nature of many of the posts?
(just a reminder, so you don't forget... that, many people are abusive, while they think they are basically a nice person - read the posts.)

Anyway; lets end on agreement: "no one actually wants to have to smack their children."

Can we take that as 'agreed'?
But there are times....... like when he chucked stones at that passing car. ;)
Judgement, and justice delivered swiftly in front of the victim.
Sounds terrible to you (I know).
For goodness sake, please don't post back about how terrible it sounds.
It all happened in front of me..... there were no mitigating circumstances.
He got a whack, and he finally understood that you don't throw stones at cars.
No prolonged mental torture.
No restriction from playing with friends (that just makes the kids hate their parents - I've seen the effects of that stupid policy, and had kids give me their views on it).

Overall:
Nobody actually came up with any single alternative strategy, to the incidents outlined (it was all 'drum banging' if your honest - are you honest with yourselves?).

Any parent reading this thread, and hoping for guidance got nothing from almost all the responses.
The opportunity was wasted.
I just have a general sense of having wasted my time posting.
Sorry about that..... but if you read the responses, then you'll understand.
There are just too many truly violent people posting here.
That's sad for a site calling itself 'mumsnet'. :(

[LittleLionMansMummy]

With respect OP you know nothing about my ds, his personality and our family dynamics other than what I've shared with you. It's a little insulting/ patronising to suggest that we've got it wrong and should take a week to 'mull it over'. We have an ongoing parenting strategy of always talking about anything in any of our behaviour - because we accept that we are never too old to learn and adapt either. I think you're mistaking our 4 year old's behaviour with that of a 14yo. He's not yet at school and I challenge you to show me a 4yo who doesn't shout, act out and say hurtful things. They are only just developing empathy at that age!

We are frequently told by all who have regular contact with him how proud we should be for raising a confident, sociable, happy, well mannered, bright little boy who is both unafraid to challenge the opinions of those in authority while knowing when to accept that authority. He pushes buttons and boundaries but is loyal, courageous and protective of those he loves. I'd say we've got it exactly right and we've managed it all without smacking him.

[CultureSucksDownWords]

I'm a sucker for punishment, so here we go again...

"the mum who didn't smack" was an entirely pointless part of your post not meant to affect opinion one way or the other about smacking. I do wonder why you bothered to include it then, but your choice.

"Your final point...... more reasonably put, and less threatening..." I have not been unreasonable or threatening, so I don't know why you are addressing this to me.

"(just a reminder, so you don't forget... that, many people are abusive, while they think they are basically a nice person - read the posts.)" - are you aware of how patronising this comes across as? Who are you to reming me of anything, so I don't forget. You have no idea how I have been reading and interpreting the posts on this thread.

"No prolonged mental torture. No restriction from playing with friends (that just makes the kids hate their parents - I've seen the effects of that stupid policy, and had kids give me their views on it)." - no one has sugggested these as appropriate strategies as far as I am aware. I don't know what you mean by "prolonged mental torture", could you describe what kind of parenting methods involve this?

"Nobody actually came up with any single alternative strategy, to the incidents outlined (it was all 'drum banging' if your honest - are you honest with yourselves?)." - you didn't appear to want alternative strategies, just the opportunity to emphasise how you find smacking to be an appropriate parenting tool. The thread is not titled "what alternatives are there to smacking, any thoughts?". I imagine you would have got more discussion of alternatives had you asked for them. You have also done your share of "drum banging" in support of smacking, so it seems odd to complain about it when others do the same.

"Any parent reading this thread, and hoping for guidance got nothing from almost all the responses.
The opportunity was wasted.
I just have a general sense of having wasted my time posting.
Sorry about that..... but if you read the responses, then you'll understand.
There are just too many truly violent people posting here.
That's sad for a site calling itself 'mumsnet"

Fortunately there are many opportunities to discuss parenting strategies inlcuding smacking across this site. It's been discussed many times, and no doubt will be again. If you ever read the Behaviour or Parenting sections you willl see many parents asking about how to manage behaviour, with many responses giving practical advice.

I find it fascinating how you can describe people posting opinions and comments (some of them unpleasant towards you, clearly) as violent, whilst also denying that smacking a child is violent.

Finally, I am not sure why you expect "mums" to be different to other people, and show no signs of your definition of "violence". Would you be equally saddened by people posting like this on "dadsnet"?

[BertieBotts]

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[catkind]

I repeat, you don't know how your son truly feels about it, and if he loves you you never will know, because if he did feel harmed in any way he wouldn't tell you.

You think your son is a well balanced and all round wonderful person - I daresay my parents think the same of me. I daresay I am in many respects Without going too far into my psychology, it's pretty clear from the sort of situations I react badly in that it does come from being smacked.

As you say, every child is different. And you know what, you can't magically know at the age of 2 what impact hitting might have on them. Perhaps some will be scared of authority because they subconsciously think there is an ultimate resort of violence. Perhaps some children will grow up bullies because they see you modelling hitting as the ultimate resort to get people to do what you want. Perhaps with some children it will just undermine your authority as they grow up as they see you hit and simultaneously tell them hitting is wrong. Perhaps with some children you will be lucky and there will be no lasting consequences.

[blondegirl73]

All I really have to say is the idea of pulling down a little boy's trousers and whacking his bare bottom makes me feel sick. And no amount of unusual circumstances or justification is going to make that okay. Ever.