George????? Surely not. I have STRONG suspicions on BP - who by the way I do not think is attractive at all.

All those celebrity spotting - I have never seen any, despite having lived in central london for a long time. If you exclude Vanessa Feltz in Waitrose, that is...

The driving school story made me lol Sputnik... It reminded me that when I started school I was really scared of ricreazione as I thought it would be a really difficult subject!

Penthe, do you have suspicions on BP too?

Sputnik lol at your dd's driving school

And Gio how sweet your little boy sounds. I'm sure he'll be fine . Dd is between the oldest this yr and now that she is old enough she has been given a knife to use at lunchtime, and she is incredibly proud of this

Rosa, did he forgot or do you think he didn't recognize him? I think dh would never recognize a celebrity, ever.
Rosa, put on your fake moustache and wear a mac and go look for Scamy...

Camo cos I would probably write off one very expensive bit of nautical equipment ... MInd you after the incident where he 'forgot' to get Sean Connerys autograph or at least a picture he has never forgotten and I don't know if he would tell me now for fear of violence with a shape instrument!
Dh at the wrong end of the city for the mostra today but at the apt sta sera vediamo. On the day after it finishes he I think is based at the Excelsior so I am hoping then that it will provide results......It is a bit tranquillo come Mostra though .No idea on Scammy will ask him to have a nose!
Mc Cloud glad things working out .

LOL, DD before she started materna was convinced she would be learning to drive, as she was utterly fixated that she wanted to drive every time we got in the car and we would tell her no, you have to go to driving school, but before that you have to go to school etc etc.
She was most disappointed about the lack of driving lessons .
Sorry to miss last night's intellectual discussion.

and that I missed a session perving over George! mmm I have heard those rumours, surely not???? Mind you gorgeous, talented, witty, politically aware - there has to be a catch.....
DS starts on the 15th- he is on count down-tells anyone who will listen he is going to school! That is because he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about

LOL @ you lot!

I've had my suspicions about Gorgeous George for a long time...

And frankly, I was amazed that BP married JA, let alone shacked up with mega-mum AJ.

Anyway. Cool down you lot! It's like the girls' locker room in here...

yes, very slow tonight.
BP is not invecchiando bene, imho.

MN very slow here tonight

I though BP was busy with the nanny... MD no..

oh, hello McC!!

Rosa, why don't you swap with DH, leave him with the new iron and go galavanting with the VIPs

heath ledger here too, with orlando as well

but I thought every bus/train/lorry/tram and motorino had gone over Canalis, I am very disappoited in dr ross. maybe it's just a summer shag story...

mm, depends, lately because of teething and cold if dd has a pooey nappy on for more than 2 secs she's all red...

I have no idea, I was trying to trick you into naming names . Do you tihnk we should try to become gossip journos

Matt Damon, you think? no, not matt damon!

yeah i wouldn;t mind being flippered by George

ok that was BAD

really, going for that doccia fredda now. night night.

or possibly brad pitt.

and i bet you would do it ON the pinball machine.

really? i don't know any names. was just kidding. come on hints hints

i reckon matt damon

Oh yes, dr ross's tilted head. Oh christ. Irresistible.

Who is his boyfriend? There are unconfirmed gossips here in Italy

franca i see where you're cming from, i'd want him to do his doctor ross tilted head, raised eyebrow, concerned look listening face... i'd definitely want to play doctors...

vado a farmi una doccia fredda before dh wonders why i am looking so hot and bothered...

Massuese.

NO, don't wake her up.

well his girlfriend may be stupid, but i bet his boyfriend is really brainy though

Lol!
I'd discuss tracheotomies with him after sex, I think.

and i didn't see any books in his place!

ha mccloud i reckon i can do one better than you and talk about Darfur DURING sex.

right dh has just put dd2 in bed with a "suspected pooey nappy" which on a cursory olfactory examination of the room by me has been confirmed. do i have to wake her up to change her? No, vero? vero?

I feel a bit sad, he was such a familiar face in my childhood. Gosh I'm showing my age.

You are right masseuse, the pin ball machine has to be for his coperture.

lol, so the pinball machine is part of the copertura. I can understand wanting to shag this Canalis lady, but can you imagine the postcoital conversation? "Fancy a game of pinball, darling?" Whereas with me, he could discuss Darfur immediately after sex!

I loved playing Rischiatutto as a little girl, 85 is a good age to go.

honestly do i have to care that Mike is dead? i mean he was 300 squillions year old. my grandma would be sad. but a colleague of mine (italian) called to tell me today and i was like ah, didnt realise he had been alive all this time...

George? a moron? nooo ragazze, i'd rather he's gay. the pinball machine is for his ragazze di copertura to play with while he minds his own business...

omg, I'm watching Mike's gaffes on tv . I'm sorry he is dead

OH NO Rosa: now I get your last post. Mike Bongiorno is dead

So, basically we've been blaming his choice of improbable women on his sexual preferences, when there might be a chance that he is indeed A TOTAL MORON

Don't go back to your family bliss Mccloud tonight, stay here and talk actors with me.

It's true he never goes with brainy beautiful women, does he? We obviously don't have a chance franca, hairy or non hairy legs.

Having ssaid taht, i saw a pic of clooney's house on the lake, and he is got a pin ball machine in his sitting room, so may be just maybe, the guy is a total moron. But still very hot. [horny]

Yes, I'd shave my legs too for george.... hoooo! c'e' Heath Ledger su raidue....... aaawwwwwwwwwwwwwww

He isn't gay, nooooooooo. La Canalis is beautiful, but una cretina. How could he? God, I would be his copertura, I would even shave my legs, and would be happy to prance around in a Cavalli dress....

I started to have serious doubts when he emerged with that Lisa Snowdon woman.
Yes, I'd love to be his copertura too. He always sounds witty and quite smart and politically active in his interviews. Oh god he is gorgeous!!!!

i never believe the rumours about George batting for the other team, until he started going out with la Canalis... that was one step too low down the food chain.

still, i wouldn't mind being his "copertura"...

Yes, Elisabetta was there. Go to repubblica website, lots of pics.
I think, to be honest, george has always sported really improbable fidanzate, which leads me to believe.... Ah doctor ross, why? why?

Not many guccis in my schools either.

Is Elisabetta whatsherface in venice too with George? Why he didn't go for me I do not understand, I am Italian toooool!

Don't write much these days as exhausted. But things back on track with dp and ds happy back at school. So you see when things are happy in my household I don't mnet anymore.

No Gucci at our school, we are more likely to have ladies in tattoes and big blokes with gold chains, lol.

MM: as you have made a compromise for your dp, can you tell him that in 3 years or so you will choose where to live to pursue your career? That would make you feel less rage....

Rosa, I think Scamy will pop up tomorrow. I want DETAILS

George , really? oh wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!we want gossip rosa!!!!!!!!!

Sputnik, perhaps your dd was really unsettled by the fact that Italian was spoken at her former materna and found everything a bit confusing. She might find it more reassuring at her new school as she understand the language better.
Another reason might be that she is growing up, and therefore getting more and more from the school environment.
Or maybe she had dreadful teachers at her old school !!!!

Mike Bongiorno........well maybe somebody else can have some space on TV now......

George popped in ..and out. DH was asked to take press he said no- Simply as they as you to zoom behind celebs boats and race round then they get cross if you respect the speed limits etc etc ...Well they don't pay the fines !!!!!!
To be honest it seems a bit quiet but I will prompt him for more.....

Glad it's going well Rosa, I think she'll be fine having done a year at the other place, and with some of her friends there too.

I have just realised that DD has stopped her daily "I don't want to go to school, I don't like school etc etc" which we used to get every morning. She did it last friday (so she hasn't forgotten), but nothing since, it is so refreshing!

Hi rosa, glad to hear the settling in at materna is going well so far.

So... any good gossip from the Mostra???

Hi all ,
Minerva I was in Cornwall for 2 months and would go back domani given the chance. Parents live on teh NOrth Coast.
Well we survived 2 days of Materna. SO far just piccoli thurs the medie coma along and MOnday the grande . Think if dd will have a problem it will be then as she hates 'confusione'- only child I know who asks to come home from a party !!!!
We have 1 right snobby mamma in our class well actually she is a nonna but a very young one as her daughter has the child but her son ( 2nd marriage) is only 6. OUr dh work together and we give him lots of work - he is nice but has she bothered to say hello ?
There is one mega Gucci figlia in Burberry ( sp you can see I don't own any!)yesterday and today I think R Lauren. DD has 3 others from Nido in her class so 'normal' mums unite!!!!! I went for a coffee with them - nice to be social again .....To think I am going to give this nice bit of life up bit of a pain.
Wonder how Gio is getting on.
MM glad you are felling a bit better I thought I was the one for the bad mum award after last week. I have been ironing for the last 4 evenings in a row and my iron has died - when it started spitting calcare and rust that was it. Friday dh says he will get me another!..HE is actually feeling guilty and even took both dd out for a morning A FIRST !...He did call nonna though per strada......

Minerva. Cornwall is beautiful, I used to go to Penzance for English courses when I was a teenager, in the 80s. There was a roller disco, ah, good old times!

OMG at the thought of a number of toddlers in pijiama running around...I guess it could work if you sound-proofed a room and covered it in gommapiuma; it would certainly be interesting to watch...

FGTH - I lived in Oxford and London for 13 years all in all, but DH is born and bred in Cornwall so I got to know it pretty well. We still go back regularly as in-laws are still there, together with about 2m cousins who hardly leave the county (I do think he's the one with the real Italian family eh eh).

lol at toodlers' pj party!

hello ragazze, just checking in to say the chicken was absolutely scrumptious (even the kids ate it!) and my mood is much, much better. .. Camo, I like the idea of a pijiama party for babies/toddlers

ooooohhh, thanks for all the suggestions, lots of ideas there. maybe we should look into norfolk and do house hunt/holiday combined (kind of try-before-you-buy) well, provided we manage to get the time off that is!

MM, I turn into a monster quite often... but that sounds yummy! and lots of tantrums today at school, so don't worry! maybe we should meet up at night so our DDs keep each other company while we sleep...

Mass, I'm really sorry you are feeling so low. I'm sure the chicken will help your mood though (as they do...)

Oh yes, Cornwall is gorgeous. Where did you live in the UK Minerva?

MM - sorry to hear you are going through that. I do seem to go through similar patches and I hate myself for it!!!

lol at the selvatici kids...

Camo - best wishes to miniCamo... and what about Cornwall for that break? (am slightly biased though - that is where DH proposed)

god we had a really monstruous tantrum this morning, compounded by my rage coming dangeroulsy close to erupting... i feel awful now.

she's there now, though. and i am making this to cheer and hopefully calm myself (the chicken).

also listening to the Chairman of my organisation on R4, and feeling my heart literally breaking in pieces at having to leave my job....

Hi, I think Masseuse you weren't the only weird one.
I loved being on holidays, but by the end of August I couldn't wait to go back to school, I missed my friends!

Dd was really happy this morning, she met her friends at the corner and we all went to school. But then, she is 5, she is a big girl

Ds has a temp

we had a great time in the New Forest, absoluely heaps to do with the kids, lovely beaches nearby, and I'd definitely go back. also very easy to reach from London.

thanks ladies- well it seems dd2 is determined to keep me company all night... yawn. and we're up since 5 this morning, she looks like she hasn't slept in a year, and i don't dare looking at myself in the mirror...

dd1 back at nursery today, and we've already had tears... I don't understand it at all as i remember as a child i couldn't wait for school to start again, but DH says that I am the weird one....

Penthe I just wanted to say re nanny- don't worry I am sure your dd is fine, it is normal for them to cry a bit but really, don't worry...

Hi everyone.

Just checking in.

Been v. busy with work and a conference.

DD settling ok with our nanny, but still cries each time I leave. She's fine after a couple of mins, apparently.

Welcome, Minerva - good luck with the job hunt.

Rosa - sounds like you're having a difficult time, and that flight sounds a struggle.

MM - Sorry you're not having the best of times either.

Happy (belated) birthday, miniCamo!

We've recently been to the beach in Norfolk - that was nice. Can recommend it.

Pippi - will check email.

LOL gio & Sputnik @ the school fashion parade: the classic MN problem!

Beaches that I love in the south hams (nr Salcombe and dartmouth) are Bantham and Blackpool sands, blackpool sands was our family fav)

Devon, devon, devon!

One of my favourite places is Salcombe, from where you can visit all the south hams area. You can even get to dartmoor national park. I think it is quite a posh place though, so I don't know re prices. south hams

Another place I love is Beer, which is less than half an hour drive from exeter, very near another lovely place called Branscombe beach. And near sidmouth etc. No idea re prices.

oh, before I forget to ask, any idea for a short family break in the uk, possibly near a beach and places to visit at half-term?

at total selvatici! it's taken all this time to my tarzan and jane to get used to the lack of indoor/outdoor space! poor things...

off to bed, night night

Hello, sorry I disappeared in the middle of defrosting (it went well btw, despite moments of panic when there was lots of water all of a sudden), but dh and I drove to the country on thurs to collect the dc and there was no internet connection.

So, HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY minicamo!!!

Masseuse, please don't beat yourself up. I really understand how you feel, and how easy it is to feel enraged by the whole situation. I really hope you manage to feel more positive soon. Have you visited xxx yet? Do you think it might help? Going for a weekend in a nice hotel? Perhaps it'd help you see yourself living there a bit more?

Dd is starting her last yr of scuola materna tomorrow. Apparently the council has been messing up a lot with the teachers due to money cuts. I hope they didn't touch her school.
Ds is starting next week. The dc haven't set foot in Milan for more than 2 months, I think they are now totally selvatici. Oh dear

oh, MM, don't beat yourself up, you're not crap mum/wife, it's just you're having to make a huge change to your life you don't really want to and you're scared of doing, it's pretty understandable!!

Happy birthday mini Camo! Glad all went well-mmmm at giant Tiramisu. When is Mini Rosa's B'day Rosa?
Minerva I know from my time as a TEFL teacher that you can get teaching work without the Tefl in some schools, but the pay always used to be a bit less without it. Having said that it was 12 years ago I taught so may have changed-keep an eye out for Bucharest on the threads-she'll know a lot more.
MM I am so sorry you are having such a crap time. Is it all stemming from not wanting to move do you think? You sound a great Mum so don't beat yourself up!

hello everyone and happy birhdays to all the birthday girls!!! WHY do they grow so fast?

well, all good here... oh who am i kidding. I feel crap. I am angry all the time for no particular reason, i shout at DH for anything, i resent the dds for not sleeping well... i suppose i could blame the fact that we're moving (for anyone new- we're moving to swtizeralnd at the end of the yeear because of dh's job), but i am scaring myself. i am being a crap mum, well a crap human being all round... i scare myself for all the rage that i seem to have pent up, i don't know where it's coming from...

also i am again insanely broody. yesterday we went to see friends with a newborn and i literally stole him, i insisted so much to take him for a walk, then freaked out because i realised the mum must be really stressed out, and i am packing all the baby stuff to give away (really no reason to move it all the way to switzerland...) and it's killing me...

gosh, feel free to ignore this horrid thread... i am so not fun these days...

AWWW Camo that year has gone so fast I remember when I was on finals with minirosa you were going through the fun of bf. Happy Belated birthday to her hope the teething Crikey minirosa will be 1 soon that is scary . I now have 3 bixes of stuff to either e bay or give away some lovely 'roba di marca ' as well ( all gifts.)
Unpacked 2 bags house still amess am cleaning round things the mountain of ironing has moved to teh sala and I shall start whilst the babes are asleep. DH is here so he can do minirosa if she will let him.

Hello - sorry for disappearing but had a couple of difficult days. DD not sleeping well again (13 months), and had a maaaaassive row with DH on something tiny and not important. All is well now but I feel really guilty re: row because it was unnecessary. Why oh why cannot I keep calm (DH can)?

Anyway, watching with interest all of these asilo/starting school threads. Early days for us but I feel I am learning a lot re: pitfalls etc... I am thinking of all of you, mothers and DCs. so good luck all!

Thanks all for the encouragement on the job side! I just have to keep positive (I never had trouble finding work in the UK so this is all new). Shall resort to "conversazione di inglese" lessons if it all fails - university grads seem to be paying good money for them. Anyone tried that before? I haven't got the TEFL but my Oxford degree should be a good marketing tool.

pippi, nothing here either...

happy 1st b-day mini-camo! can't believe she's 1! had a lovely day, even though she wasn't completly herself as she's got a mix of cold andn teething. but absolutly exhausted now - DD slept with us last night as she wasn't well, so I didn't sleep as I was confined to about 1 sq cm of bed with no blankets (DP having wrapped himself nicely , up at 7, off to get her a present at 9, rush back to clean, hide mountain of stuff tidy up, get washed, kids washed, table set, bbq on before couple of friends come..... at least the morning was lovely and warm so dd could wear her pretty dress for pics in front of huge tiramisu'

hope you all had a lovely day too

Pippi nothing come to me ...
The weather has broken up here very windy and quite cool. DD diddn't have a colpetto on opppps!!!

sputnik send us a picture of your dc. I am glad it went well. bought two pairs of shoes for dd's uniform.

Girls I have sent you an email with a delicate matter.
Please answer when you can.
All lovely here. not complaining about the weather one bit.

Know exactly what you mean Rosa. It rained here this morning and has cooled down slightly, but still pretty sticky. You will need more than one grembiule for sure, your DD will come home filthier than you ever thought possible, if she's anything like mine.

School gate fashion parade seemed a bit less OTT today, most people seemed to be dressed quite normally actually so maybe yesterday was a special ocasion! DD seems to be enjoying it, and was full of all the things they'd done.

I've started the a/form today, need to find a way to tell my new team...

rosa, I'm sure that bent thing happened to everyone, at least it happened to both DS and DD. don't feel bad!

had bad crampy night (shouldn't have eaten the huge lemon sponge cake & custard) and sooooooo much to do. asked DP to start the cleaning during the wk, but nothing done, then this am he starts with the outside of the conservatory, when the INSIDE of the house is a tip!!! then went to get bics for tiramisu, and bits, now I'm making it, and 2 out of 3 ricotta tubs are off, only got them on tue! as if I haven't enough to do! so dp's been dispatched to tesco again! and haven't even got DD anything for her b-day tomorrow! might just leave dp to sort house tomorrow before people come and go to get her s.thing!

back later

I must make notes then for Asilo on Monday then. SIL bought dd a zaino that she wants to put things in for dd - lovely thought but she chose one in the Uk when we were there.. Its lime green and a freebe from Vertbaudet and she loves it. I don't think I have any clothes to match it to be honest but maybe some lime green eyeshadow ????
F**K its so close and humid I could scream. Went to have minirosas final hearing test in Mestre took train going dd loved it and Taxi back as no train and not doing bus in this heat with buggy etc.she had the ear test at 3 months and we had to have the follow up. She passed all ok. She slept for 10 mins maybe and then we had a bis of yesterday re afternoon sleep. I had both in the same room with the A/C on low and then had to banish dd1 as she was making things worse. ON about the 7th exit of mine she screamed and then I went in after 1 min of silence and she had fallen asleep sitting head bent over squashed against the bar of the cot Had a huge bad mummy moment and burst into tears.
We have not had any letter about the asilo timings or inserimento which should be on Monday not very organised hope its not a sign of things to come .... Nonna bought a grembulie ( sp ) thing Rather boring one dd wanted a pretty one with nice collar or one with Minnie this is boring and says Iana in silver !( I know I should just appreciate it )Any way I will go and get her a second one and then she can wear that one first!
God bit of a me post .....Sorry but things are all a bit too much here and the heat doesn't help.

Camo, I did that no less than 3 times with DD's old school!
Are you thinking of applying for this promotion then? Sounds interesting.

sput, glad she liked the school! there are some glam mums at school here too, but it's pretty mixed. oh, and no school today, apparently they gave letters at the end of term (when half the school was off with flu) saying school started on 7 sept, well, I haven't got it! it felt a bit odd walking to school and see no parents/children, and then we get there and the receptionist says it was all over the gates too on the last day. especially as I had a mtg first thing. work was boring as usual , but the day ended with a spiraglio as there's a job on promotion going in my old old team, and really I know a lot of the stuff already, a more "doing" job as suppose to "supervising"...

oh, I love my knitted dresses, thick tights and boots, it'd just be nice to wear something different, actually I really don't mind winter, it's just this mid-season windy wet rubbish I can't stand

rosa, hope she settles soon

franca, how's the defrosting?

Right, will be taking notes

sputnik- we want daily outfit reports.
hope things are a little less fraught Rosa.

I'm wondering if this mum will wear shocking pink everyday, whether her DD will have a different zaino, or maybe it was just coincidence.

YYY, my summer look is generally "hot and bothered". I am much better suited to winter, when I can do "pale and interesting".
I like knitwear, I should move to Norway or something, probably.

how do they wear make up in this heat?
how do they have long hair cascading down back?
how do they have the time to iron let alone coordinate funky outfits with kids?
so many questions?
the women are so glam in Rome (sigh) - Follonica was lovely, casual beach wear on everyone, mums of all shapes and sizes, all families. Today just as I was stuffing the remnants of DS's cornetto he didn't want in my mouth an impossibly glam mum tottered into the bar with long black hair, some black leggings, glam top and heels the height of ds. Child was perfect as well, ds meanwhile had big juice moustache and cornetto crumbs all over his (non ironed) Sainsbo's top. and
Glad dd enjoyed it though Sput.
How's the freezer Franca- I may try and fit in mine later- Basta con questo caldo!!!!

h

I never wear make up, especially in the mornings. How do they find the time? Bah!
I'm sure you'll meet more like minded parents than the top and mini combo lady, you'll see... (optimistic emoticon)

About half the kids at this school are actually Italian, apparently. The rest are a real mix, there were some normal looking people too, luckily.

Definitely! There were a few who were quite "footballer's wives", for want of a better description. One had an amazing fucsia mini skirt and tank top combo, and looked like she'd spent all day on make up and hair. She co-ordinated perfectly with her DD's Hello Kitty zaino.

I felt pretty scruffy, I don't even wear make up in this weather as it would just slide off.

Ah, I'm happy to hear dd enjoyed herself sput.

Were the other mums very high maintenance? I want some gossip.

It's supposed to cool down a bit from the weekend, apparently. Can't wait!

DD seems to have had a good day at school, she actually told me what they did, which is a novelty! That may just be her growing up though.
I felt seriously scruffy at the school gate though, I am going to need a personal stylist, A Bag, and several months in the gym. Shame I am totally skint!

It is bloody hot here as well. Will it ever stop?

Defrosting is mission accomplished now. I had 10 mins of panic as there was lots of water ... But I won, it appears. I have also dusted all the shelves in the kitchen.

Screaming baby has slept 30 mins this am and then 30 mins this pm and another 10 mins and I can't go out of the room or even pee without her screaming this better just be whilst she settles back in or I will be doing my head in shortly ....
FRanca put all food in a blanket so it doesn't defrost.
Tefal yes I think you could it as your English is very good.
Sputnik welcome to city life !!! Maybe with this nice weather you could go to the beach in the mean time..... Sticky here!

Oh, I wish I was one of those entrepreneurial, crafty people who needs websites to sell home made cup cakes or lasagne...

Ok. I switched off the freezer. What do I do now?
I also need to wash the floors. I need strength

No DS is with me, we still have to sort out a nursery for him. He would probably go 2 or 3 times a week. TEFL I suppose anyone can do it, your english is very good. We need Bucharest really.

But I would probably be better off looking for more work in my current field that I can do from home, as now. Anyone need a website?

I haven't done it yet, I've been faffing about on the internet. Not sure what the word faffing means, but it sounds good

What's this TEFL thingy? Can anybody do it, or only if English is your mother tongue?

Sput I feel for you. Going to the supermarket after dropping dd sounds like a good idea to kill time. What about ds, is he with you or do you drop him at nursery?

That is one of my most hated jobs too Franca.

OMG 1 1/2 hour trip this morning getting DD into school, going there wasn't too bad, as it's going out of Rome, but coming back in took ages. Will have to organise going to the supermarket out there or other things to kill time a bit and wait for traffic to clear. The beach is not far either. It does mean I'm not going to have a lot of time though. I was thinking about doing a TEFL course like you Rosa, but then would I actually have any time to work, or find a job to fit in the right hours? There is a school bus but it costs a fortune.

Fuck it, we moved here in the first place to avoid DH's long commute

Anyway, DD wasn't too happy but she held it together. Will see how it goes this afternoon when I fetch her.

Anyway, forgot to say welcome Minerva, I like your name

Lol camo, I get those email too!
It looks like they "trapped" you with this job swapping thing. I hope you can soon apply for something you like more!

I'm summoning my forces before going to defrost the freezer... help!

oh, i did try logging in at owrk today, but we have very stringent firewall so that the screen is such a mess that it gives me a headache! but hey, at least they let through 100 e-mails telling me they know how to enlarge my manhood and how to spend my debts at casinos

oh, pippi, the tan will take no time... but you shouldn't tell us these things when all I can hear is the wind and rain beating on the roof! but enjoy it! can't believe I was wearing tights, shirt/dress, cardigan and mac today!!!

thanks for all your words about work, it's just that I feel that this job swap is not up to me anymore, as everyone's talking as if it's done (in fact, I've seen an organogram done back in june/july in which I was down as doing this job, so well before I was even asked!). only my "old" boss said we'll have a chat after 2 wks, but now I feel that if I say thanks, but no thanks, I stay in my old job I will disappoint the other guy plus my "new" boss, plus would feel not right in applying to other jobs on promotions if the right ones ever came up... aaaaaargh, never mind, maybe that's what I need to push me to apply for a promotion

anyway, minerva, that is a nice area. there are quite a few mobilifici, they always need people with good second/third languages for their export divisions.

Rosa, the flight scene sounds very common here too... and don't get me started on the male-cleaning....

school starts tomorrow!! think we'll have a hard morning...

Pippi, enjoy the heat! Have a lovely time with yourfriends and family.

I have arrived and my flight was exactly like yours Rosa...thank god for dutifull FB. Never mind, lovely heat...waiting for DD2 to wake up and head to friends' smimming pool. Shame about my lack of tan and wobbly bits.

Minerva my dad's in Udine. Maybe will have a meet up one day.

Oh dear rosa, what a flight!I remember flying with babies from 6 months to 18 months... it is hard work! I got lucky only once, when ds was about 18 months: there was a little boy sitting (he must have been 5 yrs old, he looked so mature to me!!!) in front of us who entertained ds for the whole flight. Bless him, I couldn't have thanked him more!

As to househunting... have just looked today trovocasa.it and bleah, it's depressing.

Minerva, that is a lovely part of Italy!Good luck with your job hunting!

Am Back ..............
Can I go again please?
Minirosa a nightmare on flight 2 plus I ws steamed up over BA . I had bought a seat for her ( THANK GOD ) and gave her birth date etc and loaded all the pre flight passport info etc but yet they had put her in 15 A and DD1 and me on 14 B&C. As I had checked in on line then my seats couldn't be altered ( WTF...I don't think so)Anyway very slow and whingy man eventually got her seat swapped to 14 A but he said if the actual original person in 14A had already checked in on line then it would have been very complicated ....To which I said well imagine the fun if I had put her in 15 A and me in row 14 I think that would have been worse no?She whinged , bounced , clambered, pulled the entire way thank heavens for a saint of a DD who played , munched and was an angel. DH was late to apt so 2 wonderful South Africans unloaded my 3 bags and Bugaboo and put them on a trolley. Came home and DH clean up consists of the computer area done, sink cleaned - bathroom ( only)and he said he washed the floors - Crawling minirosa proved otherwise. Oh and not to forget the single bed covered ( all of it) in 3 ft of ironing. WHen I lifted the sheet off DD toys he had thrown all of them in a pile so they would be under the dust sheet so we have the boxes, book,s baby toys lego crayons in a huge mess FGS .He said that he diddn't want the cleaning lady in as he had done it all ...She is now away until 30 Oct and oh yes Dh is back at work . I have 4 cases to unpoack as he hasn't unpacked his ( he came back Aug 19)and I have a limpet baby .
Rant over ...
Oh ladies its lovely to be back in the delights of this splendid city I can't wait to start the house hunt here or there to do dd1 inseriemento with minirosa partcipating as well ( no choice in the matter) . To re stock the house of food ....
Scarcastic rant over.

Minerva welcome and good luck in the job hunt . I worked for a UK employer as well but was ' posted' but gave it all up with children as you do and Am thinking of doing a TEFAL course in January when my dd2 will be a perfectly wonderful baby and sit quietly whilst mummy studies!

Penthe your beach day sounds like my summer but we had thick coats on as well !

In between Udine and Trieste, but we may be moving closer to one or the other depending on the job situation. I suppose I just have to take the plunge and send those CVs don't I?

Sputnik.... Ebay is great - I am a real fan and I have sold huge amounts of stuff on there... Bought a few things too. It is rather addictive though!

Hello Minerva and welcome! Where are you based?I suppose it very much depends on where you are re finding a job and a decent employer. There aren't many nice employers, but there are some.My sil has just started working for a company (I'm not naming names) which will soon open a nido aziendale and is very committed to its female collaborators. But it is very rare, sadly.

Sputnik, yes, I should find the courage to brave Ebay. It scares the hell out of me (technophobe)
I'll deffo order stuff from miniboden with a friend. But not for myself.There are so many tempting shops around here, that I really can't give in to boden too!

Masseuse, how are things going?

Yesterday I saw "Come Dio comanda" by Gabriele Salvatores. It's from a Niccolo' Ammaniti novel. Very grim, but very good, I recommend (but very very grim)

Welcome Minerva! Whereabouts are you based? I had the same situation when we moved back here-my employer was in the UK, I was on mat leave so ended up resigning from there. No regrets though-am much happier here and now really enjoy the UK when go back for visits knowing there is an end date in sight! Good luck with the job search.
Camo I'm sure you'll feel better after a few days when you get back into things-it's so disorientating at first going back I think. I am finding it like that after a summer holiday let alone mat leave

Well, Camo - I have to say I am a little jealous - I cannot wait to go back to work. Just finishing up my mat leave (I have 1 DD). The problem is that my employer is in the UK, while we have moved to Italy due to DH's new job. So I now have to find a job in Italy: imagine that. I am bricking it - all those scare stories about S**t employers. At least DH promised we will go back to the UK if I cannot find anything decent.

Am I mental wanting to go back to the UK?

There are some positives being down here of course. The nonni live 1 minute away so free babysitting, decent schools, great weather, great food, and I have o admit it is a better place to raise kids compared to London...

Oh Camo it sounds like when I went to work. I'm sure it'll be better, and think about the long quiet lunches...

I've stolen your mug McC!

Camo sounds interesting and challenging!

Cheer yourself up with this Dirty Dancing
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjvuCOlkO4E

hi everyone, benvenuta minerva!

oooooooooohhhhhhhh, I'm so knackered! didn't sleep much last night, between DD waking up and feeling like the night before an exam, then got to work, saw some old faces, but lots of new ones, and it really feels like everyone thinks that this job swap will be great... yes, more flexible as I wouldn't really need to be in the office ever (well, obviously I have to), but a really lonely and boring job I guess from the 2 hours of shadowing I had this morning, I was used to and liked my meetings with other departments etc... boh, maybe once I actually start doing as supposed to watching it'll be better... the 600 e-mails I had to go through in my inbox probably didn't help either... oh, well, it's only the first day.

anyway, sputnik and gio, good luck with school and asilo!

franca, got my mini-boden catalogue the other day, far nicer than adult, sooooo tempted to order stuff for myself too in size 14y (I meet the hight requirement ).

oh good for dd! i thought it looked wobbly.

i recycled my boden catalogue without even lookoing at it.

sorry meant haven't got the time tonight 'cause I must pack.

LOL MM yes I love those threads but haven;t got the time.

Minerva you must tell us something about yourself - we are so very curious .

sputnik yes I forgot to say, received the catalogue thanks. Did not find anything I liked thankfully so it went straight into recycling box, hope you don't mind.

McM dd's tooth's ok. we had a fine day today thank you and we are now watching Mary Poppins.

Benvenuta Minerva, yup yopu do qualify indeed. Think I 'saw' you on some thread and wanted to invite you.

Ciao Minerva! Benvenuta. Only popping in to tell Sput to make sure you get your credit as i got the catalogue. Great you have the book Franca, always overworry when i send stuff to italy. Tell me what you think of the book.

heeeelloo everyone!!! just thought you might want to join the fun here for a traditional "us vs them" mumsnet fiesta.

silliness aside i hope you\re all well, and yes Minerva, you certainly do qualify, benvenuta!!!

Ehm - can I join MN Little Italy then? Have not read the full thread but I do have an Italian passport and a British husband. Do I qualify?

Ebay those children's clothes, go on, it's fun!

sputnik!!!

I'd love more boxes from bloody ikea. Not sure there's any space left here though. grrrrrrr

What you need to do is to go to Ikea for more boxes (air conditioned too)
DD has learned from DH to say "bloody Ikea"

Right, have promised her the computer.....

Yes, very hot here too. Our flat in Milan must have collected all the heat of the last few weeks.
I'm in a major de cluttering effort... but I keep on stopping as it's too hot (and mn too tempting...)

Oh no Sputnik. I hope you get your credit sorted as soon as possible.

Glad to hear the teachers are nice, I suppose it is the most important thing!

Yes, I wonder how Camo is doing... Impressed by her work ethic, she hasn't logged in yet

Yes, really sticky here, looks like it's not going to cool down until the weekend.

School intro was load of bla bla, as suspected . Teacher seemed nice enough and only 16 kids in the class, which will be nice. The school is not too far, but what with traffic lights etc I can see it taking us 1/2 an hour.

Gio, I'm sure it'll be fine, the first few days are bound to be difficult though. Good luck.

Wonder how Camo is doing.

Glad you got a catalogue Franca, I have to write to them as I don't seem to have got any credit for it. Also, you can always get a discount, at least there is the 10% mumsnet one, or check hotdeals. If it's a small order then XNHT gets you £10 off £30 spend.

It's hot here again.
Ah Gio, we'll hold your hand

Mccloud: your book has arrived, thank you!!

And Sputnik: Boden catalogue is here. My and dear friend are going to make an order together!

Starts on the 15th Franca. I am looking forward to him going on one hand as think he is really ready for it but on the other hand am dreading it as sure will be tears etc. Yeah still hot here although there was a marginally fresher feel in the morning yesterday, soon passed into sticky heavy heat again!
Good luck with school Sput.

Oh is it still so hot there then? Today it's been the first "mild" day here, and we were all sad that the summer's gone

Have a good day tomorrow with new teachers etc.

Camo, good luck for tomorrow!

Just a quick one, as have to fresh tomorrow morning for going to DD's school to meet the teachers, register, and fork out a fortune on uniform.

We have officially moved in now, and won't be going back except for weekends. Very hot here, esp. in Rome, I am longing for layers, boots, jumper dresses! Being able to walk somewhere between the hours of 11 and 6 without pouring in sweat would be a start though!

ah Gio, I forgot to ask, when is your little boy starting materna? Are you feeling a bit less apprehensive?

Oh gosh, I really don't think I would have survived the Manchester weather. I think I should count myself lucky that we lived in Devon, where the weatehr is milder than most parts of the UK. (oh yes, those crisps autumn evenings, with the lovely smell of the first fireplaces being lit up, I loved that smell!.... ... I'm a bit homesick now!!!)

Oh gosh. Don't get me started on Berlusconi. And all the polemica with the Vatican too. Lots of people believe that this is B's end as a politician, I have my doubs, not being a huge optimistic myself. ANd even if this is B's end, we'll be left with the sodding Lega Lombarda, gasparri and the fascisti, the UDC etc etc etc. Oh dear, oh dear.

Good luck Camo! Lol Franca at season changes. In Manchester there is 1 long, shite season for 12 months with a few warmer days where you can't get a seat outside a bar or cafe anywhere for love nor money as everyone is desperately soaking up the rays while they last. I love it when you get a crisp autumn day in the UK but I used to get so depressed waiting for it to appear in between the murk and horizontal rain!
Speaking of murk - commento sul Berlusca??? Could this be the beginning of the end or am I hopelessly optimistic?? Has he finally gone one step too far with his threats to sue Repubblica (and half the world's press for good measure)?

Oh Camo, are you starting tomorrow? Good luck with settling back into your new routine!

Mccloud, lol at change of season! Do seasons really change in London? In Exeter there was the same temperature from October to June.
Oh dear, I sound bitter, don't I? Sorry
To be honest, I really enjoyed autumn in Devon, I thought it was the driest time ofthe year, and the colours of the countryside were amazing. And the smell of drying leaves...
There were also some perfect days in the summer. When it's hot, but never sticky and the sky is blue and the green so green... but they were very rare, ime.

Penthe, I bet dd had a fab time on the beach. did she love it?

tomorrow'll be the longest time I've spent away from DD since she was born!

pippi, I only wore shorts/skirts/dresses and vests, the jeans didnt come out of the suitcase. (still there actually

lovely and wrm here, just a bit breezy but fine, trying to do as much washing as I can as the rest of the week looks like rain, for a change.

pippi, have you heard about DD's school?

Pax here too gio in both dds bedrooms. Took a while to plan the inside but they are very good. We have the wired drawers and are fine for clothes.

will leave the jeans, thanks.

are you coming over here Pippi? If so leave the jeans! It is roasting still and forecast for this week seems to be more of the same.
Penthe your day sounds lovely, I love British seaside days like that.
Pax it is then! Been looking online-the white one does look cheap. Need to plan a trip there methinks.
Sput are you going back to your mountain every weekend do you think?

I am packing my suitcase and have no idea what to put in. Here seems already going on winter and I cannot get my head around the fact that there I might not even need jeans . boh!

Hello! I'm here...

Hi Gio!!! 3 weeks in the sun sounds nice.

LOL at the contrast with Italian holidays: we had a lovely and truly British day at the seaside today - fully dressed (DD in cardigan!), a little bit of paddling. Extremely windy. Grey skies. But it was fabulous! We had such a nice time, playing in the sand and shingle, walking around the heath nearby.

We might go again tomorrow!

nott-tt-tt-tt-e (no, don't like the chilly air..)

20! i just feel too old for serious heat.
i loved the chilly air this evening in my back garden.

have to go as dp wants my company.

i'm here wasting time looking for shoes for dd... dp probably asleep on the sofa...

so, how many years has it taken you? been here 11.5years and still can't get over it!

anyone around or you are all having love ins with your partners?

Mars your cake is in my recipe book now!

Camo, poor you. It has taken me many years to come to terms with the english weather, now i even like it, i could not be in a hot italikan city, love the change of season, etc. But I was miserable and angry for years. {shock]

Sput love the sound of your mountain...

Maybe i should read the road a few pages at a time. Last night I was so turbata, I even put it outside of the bedroom, I refused to sleep with it on my bedside table. I have definetely lost it.

hello Mars and Gio!

Gio, yes, Pax is very good. DP's the expert really (literally, being his old job) and that's what he'd suggest I'm sure.

horrible horrible horrible, thinking that 10 days ago we left behind summer . miserable miserable miserable. and then mum rings talking about leaving the beach at 8.30pm ...

I'm fodn of Ikea too
So you'll be a proper romana in a few days then? I guess it takes some good adjustments.

I'm a bit envious of your english shool. My children's english is losing fluency.
I still think I made the right choice (going for state school), but I worry/feel guilty etc.

I sound like an ad for Ikea, don't I?
My only reservation would be avoid the plastic drawers that fit inside, they are crap, at least the metre long ones are.

Drove back from Rome today, then will be going in again tomorrow, maybe one day I'll get used to it.
Then DD starts school next week, so we'll be permanent apart from weekends. I'm not too happy about it really, I like my mountain, but that's life.

We have a Pax here, plus 2 in Rome and a 3rd planned, we got a white one with white doors for DC's room, all white version is really cheap and we'll be decorating it with wall stickers. You can get storage that fits inside.
Back later, have to put DS to bed.

I read the road. Yes, bleak, but I had to finish it. There's been a recent discussion on the book threads.

Gio, yes, I think there is a good choice of what you can put inside the wardrobe in terms of drawers (various sizes, I think), shelves, etc. I also bought a few plastic boxes, that look quite good to store all the clothes of the dc that I'm keeping (not sure why).

Tried to read The Road last night, lasted a few pages and then felt anxious and depressed. I think someone on here read it, should I persevere? Though I don't see the point...Certainly well written, but sooooo relentlessly bleak.

Getting autumny here...

Hello Gio, nice to see you are happy and not stressed, ahhhh holidays.

Hi Franca, Yes been looking at that online, can you get a lot in it? Need to go the the store I think to visualise it. Need something can pack a load of stuff out of sight in!

mars!!!

Gio welcome back! So glad you had a lovely time on holiday, and that ds enjoyed the water so much!
Wardrobe: have you looked into the Pax range at ikea? we used to have one in the uk (3 doors) and it worked very well.
Or would you prefer something more "long term"? Poliform is excellent, not cheap, but will last forever.

Ciao tutte! Back from our mammoth 3 weeks al mare. Never ever doing less than 3 weeks again in Aug if can manage it, twas bliss. Took me whole of first week to stop feeling wound up, felt great from that point on. Loved Follonica, DS had a ball- never out of the water and spent loads of time with his Dad which was great, firstly to see them bond and secondly gave me loads of time to read and chill . Was also lovely for me to spend so much time with dp and we are determined to make more time together (post holiday optimistic emocion)- which means me cutting down on working in evening.
Just been trying to catch up- glad am not only one with the remnants of growing up in the shadow of the Bomb still - my reoccurring nightmare for decades has been the bomb exploding over Sheffield in the film Threads-anyone remember it? Was on around same time as The Day After was out? Also remember vividly sitting in school cloakroom having indepth discussions with friends about what we would do if the 5 minute warning went off. Perhaps all this explains why I am a hoarder....
Need to buy a wardrobe for ds to start housing some of said hoarded items- any recommendations? Want something for his stuff with space to store his old stuff (kept still incase of number 2) and plus our change of season gear. Needs to be cheap as well.
MM hows things at your end now?
Camo I also revert to being a teenager when I go home-leave washing up lying around, use towels like they are going out of fashion with no thought of how my poor Mum will get them dried in grim North West weather etc

Hey Marslady! - oh ye of lemon drizzle cake fame!

Ciao Bella(s)

What did you buy tehn? [curious emoticon]

Good night girls.

Done. Thanks anyway.

I am trying to buy books from Feltrinelli online but need carta si? What? Anybody able to help?

Tony Blair has just been to the meeting of CL (right wing catholics who rule in Lombardia) talking about how great his convertion to catholicism has been

Sorruy I abandoned you all yesterday night, but I was really knackered.
Brange: Cota is an ugly deputato of lega Lombarda, who's got the biggest faccia di merda in the world and says the most atrocious, racist things ever.

Shaggable politicians: Obama of course. Then I had a small crash on Enrico Berlinguer (so raffinato) and Claudio Fava, when he was younger. He is the son of Giuseppe Fava, a Sicilian journalist, murdered by mafia in 1983.
I also fancied Gherardo Colombo a judge from Mani Pulite.

Penthe!!! I have a storage fetish too. I could spend ££££ in boxes. In fact, I need to avoid Muji as much as I possibly can.

MC CLOUD: forgot to say that I read Shadows on the Hudson. I enjoyed it, but best Singer's novels are the older ones, like L'eredità and La famiglia Moskat (set in warsaw from the beg of 1900 to ww2)

Yes that sounds great Camo, looking forward to see you and yor family soon.

I wish I'd found myself strolling around Victoria on my own during lunch hours oh thinking about it I might when dd1 is at school .

Oh we are very beatable and you all know that.

can't beat pippi, but I think we'd still be together even without kids, even though he drives me mad sometimes... he's hopefully finishing the tiling as we speak...

definetly need to meet up soon. and if you're sround victoria during the week, we could have lunch too. Also hoping to have this house sorted soon too so I'm not too embarassed to have a Little Italy party, maybe our DPs/DHs will be able to vent how stressful living with their italian women is

wow! I finished the first book in over a year last night!! ok, I had a lazy day on wed and DD slept 4 hours in the afternoon, so I don't think it'll happen again soon, but it's such a big achievment for me! not the best book, think Penthe had mentioned it, the Reader. felt a bit like "written to be made into film" and found that although he has these long phylosophical passages, he doesn't say much, boh. and now I have the feeling W&P is in italy, as I can't find it anywhere.... maybe once the house is sorted (McC, feel exactly the same btw!) it'll suddenly appear.

afraid I can't seem to find any politician shaggable, maybe a bit Mr Obama, but me and politics don't go together (thank god I'm a civil servant constantly dealing with them )

To continue the "I love my DH" essay I'd like to add that I DH and I would DEFINITELY be together if we hadn't had the dds. Sometimes it is the lack of time and the stress of keeping the family running smoothly that kills us.
Also no we do not go out with other friends much. Sometimes we have dinners and bbq with other couples/family but to be honest if/when we manage to find some time for ourselves we have great fun on our own. Wish we had more time but I can see that as kids grows we should have more and more.
End of MrandMrsPippi's relat snapshot !

I bet in 6 months time it'll be me back to the slagging off camp. Or maybe around mothers day . Truth is I get a gew lie-ins and break from kids. That's all is needed.

Yes sometimes we only say the bad things because we need to vent. It also feel corny and cheesy to say how lovely one's DH/DP is and how much do we love them, no? Although I have just done so. I thought I owe it to him after all.

McC Alice Munro is the best indeed!

Damon seems to have best relationship in little italy today then, anyone can top that?

At first I thought at Hilary Benn! But maybe after a couple of drinks,.... - would prefer Nicholas though......

My poor dp, how I slag him off. Quando abbiamo finito di mettere la casa a posto (settimana prossima) saro' piu contenta. Mi stressa tantissimo avere la casa sottosopra e do la colpa a lui.

too.

Also no DH def not a man of a few words.

too.

Also no DH def not a man of a few words.

LOL Penthe !

ATM DH and I have super top rl. After stress pre holiday we seem to be flying ('tis not bragging, you know all the past 'bad' spells!). We seem to have time for ourselves together and on our own and we talk and give us space and he is very helpful. It also helps tb fair that I am very happy with my life so I am not a constant moaner.

Camo I LOVE your son and his hair. I am afraid he is not MH material, he is far above that !!!! (PS should meet again. Maybe a weekend in sept, early oct when not to cold outside? Russel Square? McC shall we book it?)\

Oh, and on the topic of Ikea... Today DH suggested that we might need to go to Ikea to get some temporary bookshelves (our current home-made ones won't fit the new house; and the barn won't be ready for a while...). I had to act all nonchalant and uncaring - like, whatever - because I would love to go to Ikea to get boxes or something <secret storage fetish> but can't look too keen! DH would get suspicious!

<wails> You were all chatting and I missed it.

Hey Brange! Hello Camo!

Sorry you're feeling a bit bleh, McCloud. Just close your eyes and think of Kevin .

Night night. x

(PS. Obama, naturally. Yes, Sarkozy has a certain je ne sais quoi... And I've said it before, but I'll say it again, I'd shag Hilary Benn, but I'd be thinking of Tony. Posh Socialist Totty! Phhhwoargh! ).

Oh, dear, relationships stink. So far Franca seems to have the best one...

Any new gossip about Gorgeous George and Elisabetta Calamitas, or whatever her name is. Has he dumped her yet? Please say yessssss!

And yes, Obama is highly shaggable. And <whispers> Sarkozy too! Well if Carla Bruni can...

I spent the day at Ikea! all our house is Ikea!!! actually, had lunch there twice this week! well, it was the only place I could take the kids today, far too windy for park and a part from them going insane stuck inside after all the space they got used to in italy, I had to take them away from DP.

McC, I think in all relationshis there's good and bad times. there are times where I thought of leaving, but normally the cause was DP's lack of ability to stand up to his parents. but I think that because we only have each other - no friends or family close by - we just rely and depend on each other, maybe too much... but we're not really touchy feely people, maybe DP would like it a bit more, but I wished we both had a better social life, well, A social life.

oh, DD's crying again....

Oh yes, I wasn't thinking beyond the Italian parliament. Obama of course.

Have you been reading about the healthcare battle in the Us and the sheer drivel that the ultra republicans have been coming out with and all that slating of the NHS? One "expreienced journalist" apparently went on TV and said that had Stephen Hawking been born in the UK he'd be dead now thanks to the NHS. Daft guy thought he was American because of the accent on his voice synthesiser thing. <shakes head>. It baffles me why anyone wouldn't want free healthcare, the Us alredy spend a higher percentage of its GDP on helathcare provision than the UK and maost European countries, with a much higher mortality rate to boot.

Sigh. There really are some daft people in the world.

Obama

Mercatone Uno, was the place with the amusing Hitler ad.

Mastella is very slimy. Mind you, is wife is similar.

Did you see that joke by Benigni when in NY about Berlusconi and his starlets? Quite funny. Who'd shag Berlusca unless for money? He's hardly handsome, brays like a donkey and is a nano with gnomo ears. Not forgetting the Astroturf hair.

Is there a shaggable politician?

Who's Cota?

I'm off on Sunday, have organised nothing, still have loads of washing to do, have not rung cat woman, am still finishing off bits and bobs of work and my bikini line has taken on rainforest dimensions. I also still need to book my appointment for the modello unico. Sigh, never enough time.

Lol at Mondo Convenienza. Is there not a Mercatone Uno in Rome? My "braccino" friend furnished his whole house inclusing kitchen for under 6000 euros from there. All finto etnico but hey, he likes it.

I am useless for gossip, I don't know who anyone is.
Bossi is a wanker though, if that helps.

No? what about Bondi, Mastella, Calderoli? Any better?

... unless you are all up for gossiping about bossi or any other sexy italian sexy politician, like Brunetta or Cota.

wow sput! That's efficient. Lets email Bossi, there must be a lega Lombarda website... errrrrrrrrrr... acvtually not, I don't even want to know. Bleurgh!

I'm off to bed ladeeeeeeeeeez, I'm knackered, it must be the heat.

Ugh at thought of Bossi!
DH thinks I have shares in Ikea. But what's the alternative, Mondo Convenienza? We have no budget for real furniture.

I was totally and utterly amazed when I organised the phone line, they gave me our new number on the spot and arranged an appointment for the following week for the guy to come round. The whole process took about 10 minutes.
The apt was saltato, but I think because of ferragosto. They sent sms' to confirm everything, amazing. The tecnico was even pleasant.

If it's just the bikini line they might squeeze you in.
When are you off?

kittens

Yes, she shagged Bossi!!! Pass be the sick bag! Could you even imagine him naked? Bleugh!

Not even a storage box, although some stick on flowers for DD's room did catch my eye for all of 5 seconds. I flirted with the idea of curtains but we don't really do curtains, a hangover from when my cats were fittens and the idea od shredded hanging cloth horrified me. DP has apparently seen a picture he likes but I'm dubious even before seeing it. I'm not keen on mass produced wall decoration, but then I never did get around to painting my big picture so I suppose I'm only to blame.

I need to find somewhere to wax my bikini line on Saturday. What do you reckon my chances are?

Brange, hello!!! yes, that thread.
What about Luisa Corna? did she shag Bossi? Gosh, people have no shame. Bossi and the whole Lega make me want to bang my head on cemento armato. Bleah.

at feeling non plussed by ikea. Not even a new storage box?

Ah, that thread. I was going to click on it then it disappeared. From under my eyes almost.

Yes, what was this grandparents thread? How can a thread about grandparents get contentious? Or were they the grandparents from hell?

DP post DD has revealed his neanderthal streak, combined with spoilt brat milanese figlio di papà with no manners. I don't know if it is specifically post DD, although he had moments of being horrible immediately after she was born. I do wonder if we'd be talking at all if we didn't have her. I'm pretty sure I'd have left him a long time ago hadn't it not been for little one.

Well done Sputnik driving through Rome - did you feel it aged you or did you come through feeling fresh and brave? I am impressed at your swift internet connection. Was it already there or did you apply when you did the rogito, or <whispers> could it be that Roman telecom workers are more efficient than the milanese? Don't tell Bossi! (as an aside why is that man still alive? and why does anyone listen to him? Prize plonker. I was shocked to find out about Luisa Corna, she must have had a pelo sullo stomaco. Yuk yuk yuk!)

Just got the new Ikea catalogue and am hugely disappointed. Nothing at all grabs me in there. Is my love affair with Ikea coming to an end? am I becoming brianzola and veering towards B&B? (I wish!) What would we do without our evenings out in the Ikea restaurant?

People started to pile up on an OP who was "complaining" (in a very articulate way) that her parents didn't take any interest in her ds.

What was the grandparents thread about that it got deleted?

Hello Brange, chi non muore si rivede, what a good idea to go away in September...

I have added my thoughts to the UP thread, not that I understand what the whole thing entails, and I bet nobody knows.

How do all of you manage your relationships with dh/dp post kids? Goodness, I do wish my dp was also a man of a few words.

5 days and you are back at work Camo? Doesn't time fly....

Gosh, how did you manage to get the internet so quickly? It took us a month

You must haver friends in high places

I survived!
Not too much traffic, so not too hairy.
Will take some getting used to, though.

God, it's unbearably humid here, looking like it might rain but probably won't. Wish we had a fan.

But we do have fridge, cold water in kitchen, and, most importantly, internet.

DH has gone to Ikea for table and more wardrobes, lucky guy.

Yes, I wouldn't mind to be able to afford MH. Mind you, I think my ideal location is off MaryLebone or whatever the spelling is.
I'm a living cliche

Yes, I totally see what you mean camo

ciao brange!

sputnik, hope you've survived the drive to Rome

lol at whispering parents . DS's got long hair, just got it scalato in italy, but we're definetly not MH material... well, I wouldn't mind being able to afford it, but no, no whispering here

Mc, feel really bad for DD as she doesn't get the same amount of time as DS did, but guess that's natural. and I feel a lot guiltier about going back to work (OMG in 5 days ) than I did with DS, although he was 5.5mo and not 1yo!

re camps - I think you'd have to be made of stone to feel like a tourist. because everything is in your head already, but not physically there, you just place those images into context and space. Some people (teachers and students) didn't manage to go through the whole visit, but everyone was very respectful and quiet and felt I had to pay my respects in a way. but maybe it would be harder to see it now, you now, post-children.

Nooooo don't think MH is my place. I can't stand whispering parents. I want loud, wishwife parents.

Naughty damon, have you been on another UP thread?

I was on a thread that's been deleted and feel sorry for the OP.

so muswell hill is your place whenever you decide to move to london.

BRANGE!!!! COME BACK!!!! YOU'VE BEEN TRULY MISSED!!

Yes get that nickname quick, it suits you ! What's new?
Yes I am terrified of drivers in autostrada... pazzi!!

Re UP thread: I won't go there anymore as I don't know enough and all I want to say is "tell them off!!!" which is not very helpful nor intelligent. I might read the book if I get it for free...

I like charlie and lola a lot and boys with long hair

Oi Brangelina!!! Sorry I missed you.

I was on a granparents thread yesterday, that I think has been deleted

Mccloud, how do I keep my relationship happy? Boh, I hope it is a happy relationship, who knows. Dh is a man of few words, and I have come to accept it, sort of. To be honest, we are not the most romantic couple in the world, sometimes I think we should and go all paranoid, but it is not us, really.
What makes us happy is that here we have more time for ourselves, of course, with all these nonni around. But we often choose to share our child free time with friends, much more fun, tbh.

Notte, and good luck driving ini Rome. Rather you than me, I was astonished at how fast everyone drove even in the centre, it made the milanesi seem quite sedate. I even put a seat belt on in the back of the taxi as I swear we were topping 100 on an inner circonvallazione.

No, no real ristrutturazione, just knocked down a waist high wall, ages ago. Painting done, we are still building furniture and finishing kitchen. We've spent a few nights there already, and have to be in by next week.

I am going to be driving into Rome tomorrow, wish me luck!
Better get off to bed. Have a good time in France, eat some chevre for me (cheese, not goat ))

Going to France, near Hyères. I think DP conceded France finally so he could test out his new and underused SatNav.

How is your moving going? are you ristrutturando? Are you living in dust, paint and piles of rubble or is ti fairly civilised?

There's a comic MN thread with a nickname I quite like, I wonder if I should nab it before anyone else does. What do you think of Unhingedminge?

Sounds like you're working hard.
We are in the middle of house-moving turmoil.
Where are you off to on holiday?

I have been having turmoil with DHL but have managed to bounce the problem back to someone in the UK. I just can't be dealing with banal crap right now. I'm a bit burnt out.

I've been taking on staff lately and OMG at all the documents involved. I got tired just looking at them.

Lol, yes, they're all great novels, aren't they? Jane Eyre was also supposed to be a great novel, was it not?.

I've just read loads of light reading material - things like Brick Lane etc. I still have a 1000 Splendid Suns to start but can't bear the idea of the emotional turmoil at the moment.

Unconditional parents.
Who nevertheless have to hold the door shut to keep DCs in their rooms

I should start a thread about spedizionieri, as have been battling one recently, but wouldn't presume to bore people.

UPS? Is there a thread about spedizionieri?

Yes, DPAM, not knickers.
The copy of W&P I have says "the greatest novel of all time" on it, how to resist?

No, they are just busy battling the UPs

Ah sputnik! Lol at you thinking of me when buying knickers. I would hope the association was DPAM .

Yes, leave W&P well alone, far too taxing post dc imo.

<sob> Did I scare you all off?

....trundles off to bed....

Brange! I was thinking of you today as I was in DPAM, getting DD some knickers. Not seen you for ages. How are you anyway?

I have Anna Karenina too, maybe I'll start that instead.

OMG I just noticed there's now some weird DM association!

Anna Karenina's better than W&P (if that's what W&P is supposed to be). It has fewer characters for a start, you put W&P down for more than 5 mins and you have to run through the people again to remember who's who. And that was when I was young and sprightly and had more memory. I never managed to get to the end of it, but reading parts of it in original language probably contributed to that.

Lermontov's A Hero of Our Time is very good, as are Pushkin's short stories. His verse stuff is also quite good, but you've got to be into verse really. I really liked the name Yevgeny for DD if she was a boy from Yevgeny Onegin - not that I'd ever have got that past DP but I can dream.

How are you all? Have y'all been on holiday? I'm finally going next week [huge relief emoticon], booked it today (talk about last minute!). Let's hope the weather holds out.

pmsl at celine dion's child. oh my goodnessssss.

lol at "instructed". Let us know Sput if you get through the first chapter about hte war. And no skipping allowed.

posted on the uP thread by the way.

I am only on page 2 so far. Maybe I'll dig something else out to re-read.

Have you?? Nooo I cannot start till I buy the italian treanslation McC has instructed me to. don't go to fast.

So it should be! unusual I mean. [right wing suburbian DM reader emoticon]

Shoes, obv.
I have started on W&P, as nothing else to read.

I was staring at watching him for ages trying to figure out if he was a girl dressed a bit tomboyish, but no, he was called Davide.

It's quite unusual here.

We were at this big centro commerciale trying to get DD shes for school. They don't have them all'inglese and we needed blue or black. Ended up buying Kickers, I am still hurting!

Oh I am telling you sputnik they are all like that, long hair a la celine dion's SON !

Friend wants to take us. I like these places in small doses. Could not do an entire holiday in disney world for example but could go in for a day.

I saw a 5 or 6 year old boy with very long hair tied back in a ponytail today, I was quite shocked!
Good news on M&S, I saw a few months ago they started posting to other European countries, but not here, so glad they got their act together.

Peter Jones !! Che schifo. No NO NO. Con quei completi blue gessato [blarrghhh].

are you going to fiabilandia? not a big fan personally of these places, poor ds will never get to go....

ehm, actually lots of UP parents around here! today i saw a mum telling her 3 year old who was hittijng her in the face : why do you want to hit mummy? And this with the gentlest of voices and a soft smile. Kid within 5 mins had pushed another boy on the floor and snarled at dd, and the mum totally did not see it!

I love Charlie and Lola!

Did you see Bannnatyne on Dragons' Den? Si' e' tinto i capelli, che orrore. I caught myself fancying Peter JOnes.

That will be me yawning at 10pm. Franca how do you keep your relationship happy with your dp?

have you been to Fiabilandia?

scary!!!

Yes nice but I see it now as the real version of MN. In the park today I could swear I 'saw' a few Mnetters. Oh and they all paractice UP too. (How mean of me!)

Oh Muswell Hill. It sounds nice

Urban Joke:

How do you know whether someone lives in Muswell Hill or not? Look at their DS. If he's got very long hair and is dressed like Lola from Charlie and Lola the answer is a YES!!!

Yes, what keeps me from actually going to a concentration camp is the danger of feeling like a tourist with a morbid interest to what's happened. But I feel like I should, just because. You are right maybe because these places need us to be there, and feel empathy or at least try to.

Will M&S post food as well? I'd kill for a carrot cake.

Yes you prob would (talk about the same things) at first but then the alcohol different location with all that entails will give it a different twist.
But yes do not expect first date fireworks. Everytime we go out DH starts yawning at 10pm and you can tell is desperate for bed and news [pathetic emoticon]. Then he wonders why I'm out till 12 and drink brandies when I go out with friend .

lol at knockers!

yes, we probably need some time together, but at the same time i dread not having anything to say to him, and having to listen to the same stories, and me telling him the same stories, blah blah.
I did think the other day that if we didnt have kids we would have split up by now. {and i would be with gorgeous george or randy kevin!} [horny emoticon] or even both, swoon.

Had to make a different post but GREAT about M&S Rosa. I can totally understand about not finding italian clothes at decnt prices. I wonder sometimes how people do. Imagine all those lovely bras and knickers (almost wrote knockers ).

McC I think you and DP need a good night out on your own. no?

Yes I can see your point re camps and I think you are quite right in that it could be/seem a bit voyeristic and at the same time like intruding even.
But, and I am just talking for myself here, I also think that going to the actual place where something had happened makes me internalised it more in a deeper level. It's not just the camps, I'd like to go to to Dresden, to Flanders, to Normandy etc. To me it feels like getting closer to those that were there and lived such a completely different and far far harder life mine. It's humbling and a way to understenad more and pay respect.

The first time I went to the Re di Puglia I spent probably an hour there lost in my own thoughts. And yes I am sure there's a spirituality in such places which does transfer.

I also thijnk at a camp I would have a physical reaction, retching, etc...And it would take me a while to go back to normal life. Infact I would struggle to go back to life. Maybe the dead there though want people to visit, don't knwo. Not that I am religious. I do think though that landscapes that have seen lots of deaths have their own spirituality and maybe need to see people walking through them. Boh. Would like to know your thoughts.

Franca, only posted book yesterday, between one thing and another the package got forgotten ijn the car.

I also have a Singer novel to read on my bedside table, called Ombres sur l'Hudson, in French, originally in Yiddish I think. Will tackle it soon. Had never heard of him, then friend lent me this.

Quick post: not sure i could handle a concentration camp, I would feel like a tourist there to gawp, not sure i could justify the visit. Hard to explain....Why would you girls want to go? Curious..

Dp getting on my bloody nerves, infact it is not the children i cannto put up with, it's him!!!!! Pita! Also quite sad that the intimacy i had with ds as a baby it is harder with dd, because have other things to do. Oh, long hours singing songs and giving massages to ds, spent 3 years like that, with dd is a quick song and down she goes with her toys. I would die of sorrow if i had to work full time and only see the kids for 2 hours in the evening. They are such lovely kids [love in emoticon]. Dp another story.

Rosa: would Padova be too far from Venice?

MM: what about studying in Geneva if you thijnk you suck at baby and having more children?

Have to share this MARKS and SPENCER are now posting to Italy !!!!
I am in a panic about a wedding now moved from end of Sept ( had clothes) to end of Oct ( don't have outfit)and was trying to order before I leave and I saw they are posting to 41 new countries... Oh knickers oh reasonable priced clothes oh sizes that fit chubby me .... I am happy especially as Next stuff has gone far too trendy and all short things .....
Back to have surf to possibly ear mark stuff as I want things I will wear again
Baci

Yes, yes, yes, Penthe. Totally agree.
I actually think that the description of Sophie's life living as a servant in the house of the Nazi who she'll try to seduce is the best part of the book.

And I liked the descriptions of Brooklyn etc, especially Coney Island when they go to the beach.

I've been to Dachau. That was harrowing. I don't think I could handle a visit to Auschwitz.

I feel I should say something positive about SC: it did have some good bits.

I thought the most powerful scene(s) was when Sophie is given dried figs by Bronek, and is so grateful and excited; and then later, looking out the window she realises that they must have come from the newly arrived and instantly murdered Greek Jews, and is sick. I found this terribly moving, as (for once Styron didn't feel the need to elaborate too much and) it revealed the tragic, pitifully human economy of the camp. It is left to your imagination to wonder how those figs came into Bronek's hands; what deals or promises were made in exchange; whose they were; the long distance and terrifying journey someone had travelled with them in their pocket/hand, etc.

I also thought he described the urban and suburban landscape of NYC and Brooklyn well; that was atmospheric.

The opening chapters, particularly his recollection of his time as an editing underling were wry.

so have I.

Thanks Camo. Yes, I haven been thinking seriously of going to visit for a long time now.

oh, no, franca, don't worry. i've always been interested in it, we had various events in our village for the anniversary, with local survivors, including writers etc. plus we also went to la risiera di san sabba alle medie, and my grandfather was a pow in a camp, my great uncle too, in fact I was the first in the family to find out exactly how he died whilst trying to escape as one of his mates wrote a book about his time as a pow. but in any case, the visit to Auschwitz is one of those experiences I'd recommend, I think because you study so much about it on books at school that it seems nearly fictional, but once there, suddenly you realise it did happen, I was 19 at the time, so I guess still naive about the world...

omg, I sound about 90 now...

Penthe THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT!!! All of it! (Obviously you put it soooo much better).

Yes yes yes to everything. Spot on.

Oh I got annoyed again just by reading your review.

I'd like to write so much more but you've said it so beautifully there's no need to add anything.

But I am so annoyed with Styron the book is going back to the charity shop.

how do I translate "coming of age novel" into italian? I'm having a brain freeze at the moment.

Sorry about the "you went to auschwitz" question being left there in the air without elaborating.
I wrote a long bit about my feelings about visiting concentration camps, but erased it, I feared I'm getting a bit of a bore...

Any time Deb

Camo, you went to Auschwitz?

wow, your household always sounds so busy... I'm still at inlaws and get existential angst at the prospect of going home and declutter

feel like I should read to see how bad SC is now... sounds like i'd get frustrated though, we did so much extracurricular holocoust stuff at liceo, including visit to aushwitz, i'd end up arguing with myself (I find that as I get older I do that a lot )

and anyway, 600 pages, once a doddle, now seem a mountain, I've managed to read 2 chapters of the reader since I came back from hols, and that was what, 4 pages in 5 days!

DP's tiling, house still a mess, cases still unpacked - I had the brill idea to declutter the wardrobes before going away, but then got ill, so I have stuff out of cupboards around the house, some just chucked in as I left and rest in the cases! and I have til tuesday to sort it out or I won't be able to have DD's party next week! and of course I'm here MN'ing . good that we couldn't go and see the house today.

Thanks Franca

It means "yes, we have a gate for the stairs".

stairgate help again -does thismean she has one or we can use one?

Si abbiamo il cancelletto per la scala

Yes, that's what I meant, that her ability to choose was inherently unbelievable.
I thought the rationale behind the choice was that her son was older and therefore more capable to fend for himself in the atrocious conditions of the camp.
But perhaps my incapability to understad "a choice, any choice" in such an extreme, tragic situation says a lot about some kind of ingrained Italian culture of mothers sacrifizing themselves. Or maybe it's because I have the benefit of hindsight. As far as Sophie knew, her son could have indeed been able to survive the camp.
After all, she might have believed that after the initial selections one could have gone living in the camp. Boh!!!

Yes, I also detected a touch of mysoginy in
choosing Eva.

Perfectly articulate - I get what you mean.

Perhaps I missed something by reading too quickly - but what do you mean by "rationality" of her choice (was there further discussion that I've missed/misremembered/skimmed over about why she chose Eva)? Do you mean that she could choose at all is inherently unbelieveable? I would tend to agree. I should imagine that before then a mother would offer herself, rather than one of her children. Or utterly refuse separation.

Do you think it was because Eva's flute teacher was amongst those selected to die? Was there supposed to be an unconscious impulse that - if one child had to go - at least the child would be with a trusted and known adult at the end?

Or a reverse of Jacob's "sacrifice" of his son (though not finally required) in the Bible?

Hmmm. Again I'm a little suspicious about the "misogyny" of it. Is it coincidental that she's called Eva?

I felt, somewhat contrary to you, that there was no rationality, on some level. Styron just presents the scene and the choice as no kind of choice at all. Just a reflex. But, as you say, here he may be out of his depth, in that is that a convincing reflex? Would it have happened like that?

Oh, and another complaint. I found it rather gruesome that Styron/Stingo juxtaposes the climax of Sophie's story with his own sexual climax and conquest of Sophie. Urgggh. I'm sure he was aiming for the starkness of this juxtaposition, a jarring effect. But it just felt, I don't know, disrespectful. Another degradation of Sophie, IYSWIM.

If a novel, as an inanimate object, can be self-absorbed, than this novel was self-absorbed. I was rather stunned, overall, by its superficial and unconvincing compassion for Sophie and other victims of the holocaust. Perhaps that was deliberate: you can't understand or feel sympathy if you have not experienced it, we are all as gormless and crude as Stingo, etc. But I don't think this was Styron's intention. Besides, writers like Levi have evoked the problem of "the drowned and the saved" without resorting to a fatalistic sense of incomprehension.

Oh, and blurrrrgh @ the orgiastic (and all too Germanic/Wagnerian) "Tristan und Isolde" type suicide pact. Plus, would Nathan really have chosen the method favoured by Nazi war criminals? That feels weird to me.

Gosh, sorry, that wasn't that articulate.

Penthe, thanks for this analysis. I'm actually quite unimpressed by myself for having forgotten most of the book, but I agree with you on the whole.

Totally agree with Nathan being the most interesting character and what a let down it was to find out he has mental health issues, which undermine his desperation about the Holocaust.

I think that the only bit that stayed with me is when sophie decides to seduce the nazi guy (sorry, I forgot names) and her fainting in his daughter's bedroom.

I still can't gert over the rationality of her choice, it doesn't seem plausible to me, but then again, there wouldn't be a book if she hadn't made any choice.

I honestly wouldn't bother. It is over 600 pages long, and I found most of them quite boring, TBH. Took me ages to finish, which is quite unusual for me.

Oh, hey Sputnik! LOL!

Ugh - and by a kind of reverse token, calling the doctor who forced Sophie to choose Jemand von Niemand - "somebody of nobody" as if to ram home the "universal" side of things. Crass. Why not just have him nameless? He was nameless to Sophie, after all.

Sorry for going on and on...!

Wow Penthe, you have made me want to read this just to see how crap it is!
Glad I'm not the only one with end-of-the-world problems!

I feel I need to qualify what I mean about disliking the overt fictionalisation of the holocaust. I don't think that a fictional novel about the holocaust is impossible or inappropriate or crude (for instance, Jakob der Luegner is excellent, IMO). It's just that by having Sophie interact with real historical characters - e.g. Hoess and Duerrfeld - Styron reveals how weak his grasp of it all is: he has to rely on the "shock" value (or Forrest Gump value ) of having his protagonist bump into real-life figures to make it more "real", rather than being able adequately to write about it without recourse to that kind of pseudo-historical weight, IYSWIM. It's like he couldn't make Sophie's story dramatic enough without this kind of interaction.

Thanks for the hair replies! I figured it was an old wives' tale, and that cut hair gives them impression of being thicker because it looks tidier and blunter, IYSWIM. I shall not cut DD's hair, then! <lazy>

Essay ahead - please ignore if you''ve not read Sophie's Choice!!!!!!

Ok. So I finally finished it. I'm really surprised that it was considered such an excellent novel, TBH (won an award, or something?). Overall, my opinion is quite negative.

Thoughts in no particular order:

- I think it was largely over-written. For instance, you could've culled thousands of adjectives from the novel, and made it more direct, more immediate, less fussy. I know he references Faulkner, who piles up adjectives a lot in his fiction, but, frankly, Faulkner's uses of adjectives are much more original and strange: this just felt overdone and pompous. Perhaps this was a deliberate attempt, as I suggested before, to convey the younger Stingo's style; or to give a sense of the superfluity of it all. But I found it irritating and self-important. If this was deliberate, then it leads me on to my second point;

- I found Stingo totally unsympathetic and unlikeable. While I think that some novels do want you to feel alienated by or dislike towards the protagonist (e.g. American Psycho; one could even think of Catcher in the Rye, but Stingo lacks this character's charisma), here I got the impression that Styron wants you to feel somewhat sympathetic towards the naive young Stingo, and see his tale as a kind of Bildungsroman, but Styron is no Goethe, and I found Stingo self-absorbed, bigoted/racist, misogynistic.

In fact, there was - in general - a rather misogynistic streak running through the book: the Leslie Lapidus and Maria Hunt episodes were - on the whole - horrible. I found their sexual politics utterly horrifying; perhaps this is more a reflection of modern mores; but I'm not sure. Moreover, the entire portrayal of Sophie left a rather foul taste in one's mouth: you couldn't help feeling that - as she herself seems to imply - she "deserves" the treatment she receives from Nathan.

Which again reminds me: Sophie - ostensibly the main character after Stingo - is really poorly characterised. I couldn't say now whether she was a kind person, or funny, or anything: her characterisation was so weak, that I wasn't left with a strong impression of her; only of the things she does or what happens to her. I got a stronger impression of peripheral characters - like Leslie Lapidus, or Wanda - than I did of Sophie.

On the other hand, Nathan is over-characterised, perhaps in counterpoise to Sophie. He emerges as by far the most interesting character, despite the story which is supposed to be the foundation of the tale - namely Sophie's experiences of the holocaust. In fact, I was left wishing Styron would write more about what I thought was an interesting and novel idea: namely, Nathan's intense interest in European anti-semitism and his indirect sense of personal outrage coupled with his having "missed" the war. However, Styron completely passed the buck on this one by making Nathan mad (paranoid schizophrenic? how unoriginal!), and thus rendering all his quirks pathologies.

Styron litters his stories with apparently necessary asides (he constantly says "to understand the next part of Sophie's tale, you have to know the following story"). Nearly all of these seem totally irrelevant to the main thrust of the story, and far from giving the novel depth and richness, or even from giving the novel a kind of superfluity (again, perhaps Styron was aiming for the "enormity" of the tale angle), these episodes derail Sophie's story, and make it lose its dynamic horror. E.g. the Duerrfeld (the industrialist) episode (which only serves to sexualise Sophie further for no apparent reason).

The lesbian obsession was also a bit much. Yes, obviously there would've been such events, but I felt that Styron's inclusion of these was more voyeuristic, almost pornographic, than anything else.

This voyeurism/pornography I found distasteful, TBH. I know there is a kind of Eros/Thanatos thing going on, but he seemed only to be able to do the Eros, and mishandled the Thanatos, I thought.

The defining episode - Sophie's Choice - is so bafflingly badly handled that I was totally amazed. He intersects the scene between Stingo's absurd romantic dreams of Sophie coming to be his wife in Virginia, which obviously is meant to represent and illustrate Stingo's utter incapacity to deal with the horror of Sophie's life and thus be dramatic and stark in its opposition of tone, etc. However, it just made the episode flat and trivialised, IMO.

Also, I found that Styron was - basically - unable to face up to the very subject of his novel: the holocaust. OK, he makes that point himself (e.g. referencing Steiner - the unspeakability of the holocaust, etc.), but if you're going to write a bloody novel about it...! What I mean is, he writes about Auschwitz, but obviously wants to duck writing about the Jewish experience of it (to controversial, politically dangerous, maybe), so he tries to play a clever trick and write about a Pole who is treated like a Jew, IYSWIM. This maybe gave him "permission" to imagine the holocaust, but it felt weak to me. Plus, I must admit, I do have an inherent anxiety about the overt fictionalisation of Auschwitz: placing Sophie in, for instance, the path of Hoess, felt ungainly and crass.

The comparative theme of the racism of the South/anti-Semitism of Europe was, I suppose, meant to make you reflect on the universal nature of human evil; just as the choice of Sophie (everywoman) was supposed to make you reflect on the universal nature of human suffering. But this fell flat and was rather patronising, and threatened to trivialise.

I'm sure I have more things to say, but this is more than enough for now!!!!

Sorry those of you not reading SC!

so just about in terraferma then! don't know mogliano, my godmother lived in Spinea, and her family are all around there, Dolo and Mira, I remember visiting them but can't say much, I was about 10 last time I went there. further up, I like St Stino, still on the train line to Venice. If I were to move back to Italy I'd look around St Stino, though I'm only going on what I can see of it driving through between home and Marco Polo, or Concordia, though that I guess would be too far for you and you'd have to go to nearby Potogruaro for the train to Venice

re hair - didn't cut DS's hair til he was about 2, maybe 3, boh, but he's got very thick hair. I remember my sri lankan friend cutting her dd's hair off a couple of times well before she was 1 as that was their tradition for same reason you said, but her dd was born with a very full head of hair, so not sure that it os true, boh. IMO once you cut it it looks thicker because you get rid of the baby hair, that alwyas sticks out, not because cutting it makes it thicker IYSWIM. in fact, thinking about it, my niece had hers cut quite late, and she has amazing thick hair now at 9

Yes, perfect temp here. Still hot, but not humid. Cooler at night. aaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

No Idea possible Mogliano Veneto but it has to be on the regular train route to Venice .
I am just not trying to think about it until I am back in Venice as it will wind me up !!!
Strange weather here sun and rain but I have heard that the heat has broken in Venice and Italy ..>Finalmente sounded terrible....

Not sure if cutting a child's hair makes it thicker. Sounds like an old wives ' tale. Doesn't thickness depend on the follicle? boh! Btw my mum has been pestering about this for ages. My 5 yr odl dd has very thin, blond hair (I love it as it is still so fluffy and cute, though I agree possibly not the most gorgeous hair in the world) which my mother blames on the fact that I didn't cut it when she was little. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Oh the book sounds promising. School took us to see The Day After when I was around 13, which really made a big impression on me. But I've always liked catastrophic movies etc, so I actively sought this kind of things. I've always been scared, but incredibly intrigued at the same time by these things.

The funny thing about The Day After is that, the day after we saw it, our professoressa gave us a lecture on protected sex, as a girl in the movie was pictured taking the pill

Yesterday night I started reading Isaac B Singer The Moskat family. I read 3 pages and I'm already hooked

Sputnik - LOL.

I was 11, after all! - it's the kind of thing that upsets you at 11. Plus, it was, like, symbolic, innit, for all the people who couldn't get to safety. Or something. Like. Err.... <ashamed of British sentimental fondness for dogs>

On the topic of hair, if you cut a child's hair, does it make it thicker, or is that an old wives' tale? DH is worried that by not cutting DD's hair, we are condemning her to fluffy baby hair for all time...

haven't read the book, but living close to Aviano was a bit like "well, we're f'd if anything happens".

Rosa, what area are you looking at on terraferma?

MM I used to scalp DD1 often. Now I have learnt my lessons and I'll never ever touch any of my childrens' hair. Leve it to the professionals. The best fiver I ever spent!

'and sometimes find it hard to throw away stuff as I am thinking in the back of my mind "this might come in handy should the world end". '

Sputnik so do I so do I!!!!! (and so does DH but different reasons I hope, henc garage filled with useless tatt). Oh I thought I was the only one with this silly thought. I have lots of rubbish jumpers for example that I kind of keep for these very reasons . I have not read that book but was scarred by cold war to when primary school teacher kept telling us Russia had a missile aimed at every city in Italy so I kept looking at at the sky and imagining this missile pointing at me. I also remember listening to that Sting song for ages and panic . Should I read it? Maybe you can pass it along?

We had a lot of fun on CND demos back then though!

The first part is pretty scary and gripping, I read that straight through. It does have a more optimistic ending though. LOL at typical Brit attitude to death of dog as entire world is laid waste by nuclear holocaust.

You are welcome to re read my copy by the way if Franca wants to post it on.

I grew up at the height of nuclear paranoia and close to lots of military bases, and I think I has clouded my attitude to life a bit. I tend to have lots of food stockpiled and sometimes find it hard to throw away stuff as I am thinking in the back of my mind "this might come in handy should the world end".

SPUTNIK!! OMG OMG OMG!!!! I read Children of the Dust at school when I was about 11 (boarding school, remember), and it haunted me so badly!!!! I couldn't stop thinking about it for weeks. Thankfully the Cold War ended a couple of years later, otherwise I don't think I would ever sleep again! Truly, it made such an impression.

Spoiler alert, sorry franca - but it's been in my head for ages and I've never met anyone who's read it! Eeek - the poor little dog dying at the beginning; and the girl having to marry a much older man <urrrgh - when you're 12 this is horrible!); and the next generation with their pale furry skin!

Wow. I haven't read this book in 20 years...

Is it as good/scary/memorable as I remember, or was I just overly anxious about global apocalypse?

oh, MM, evviva!, well done DD2!! I'm sure she still looks lovely though!!

and at your brother!

McC, hope you had a good day, I managed to get about 10 mins on my own in the garden sunbathing today, til the stupid girls next door slammed the door waking DD up so she didn't sleep til now!, so I understand!

oh, and I am loud when DS behaves badly, I do try to control myself especially out and about, but when it's the 10th time I'm repeating the same thing, well, don't really care what strangers think of me. but then how many threads have I seen about parents NOT parenting or doing it too softly... can't win in the MN world

anyway, notte tutti

there are so many ways you can parent wrongly on MN, seriously, how do our children ever survive!!!

dd2 took her first steps today (FINALLLLLY). i celebrated by giving her un'aggiustatina ai capelli and basically scalping her i feel v upset about it, she looks awful, my lovely baby...

notte!

Pippi. That's what you get from italian parents . Not sure which parenting style is more irritating

Great. I enjoyed reading it. Will pop to Po asap.
I'm off to drink a glass of coca cola and make the most of pil's sky tv. 'night!

Franca I saw your post on this thread and by god you made me laugh!!!!
I was starting to feel such a bad bad mother! thanks for existing !

Yes good idea, have been meaning to read something of hers for ages but not got round to it.

True.
I'm at inlaws at the moment, I have sarah waters the nightwatch with me, how does that sound?

Ok, I'll dig out your email and send you my address.
Actually maybe you should let me know what you're sending in case I've read it.

yes, I'll have a good thought, hope I can get it right! I'll need your address.

Thrilling yes. We got 25-30% off all our appliances in the end, which I'm quite pleased with.
Books, hmm. How about a surprise, I'll read anything but prefer english.

Trieste is beautiful and only a half hr drive away from the grotte (caves?) di Postumia in slovenia which are stunning.

Oh yes, Toscana, of course, I remember that.
A fridge! How exciting! I love buying appliances, the saddo I am.

Oh yes, please . Only if I can return the favour though. What sort of book can I tempt you with?

Thanks Franca and Sputnik, we're going sometime in the 1st 2 weeks of September before our boys go back to school here. I thought Fruili looked quite nice, I fancy a day at the beach, a day trip to Venice, and I don't know where else.

I would say canceletto too.

Franca I can lend you children of the dust if you like. I haven't been anywhere other than back and forth to Rome. More of that next week as DH has the week off so more trips to the beach and work on the house are planned. Tomorrow we are, hopefully, getting fridge, oven and phone/internet connection
Oh forget actually we went to Toscana last weekend.

Hi Deb, stair gate is cancelletto, I think.
"Avreste un cancelletto per la scala?".

When are you going to Friuli? I've only ever been to trieste, udine and the isonzo valley (which is actually slovenia)

Hope you don't mind me butting in. We live in Austria and are looking for accommodation in Friuli, but not on the coast in a big holiday park. We're struggling and the best we've found has stairs directly from the living room. I need help with how to ask in Italian if they have a stair gate to use at the bottom of the stairs. - Thanks

Also if any of you know of any good places to stay?

Thanks sput, I'm quite attracted to children of the dust.
Where have you been? (nosey)

Welcome back Camo, sorry the holiday was a bit stressful, I think it's hard being around your family for extended periods at the best of times.

Re Brit style uniform, I never thought mine would wear it either, but here we are. Weirdly enough I ended up getting DD a cotton skirt from the US, with the exchange rate how it is it actually worked out quite cheap.

Franca I read Canticle for Leibowitz, which was really brilliant, then Children of the Dust which is actually a "young adults" book but quite gripping and I'm now on The Drowned World, which is a bit heavy going tbh.

(sorry!)

franca, he sat on it (i had one side down as it's the bedside model)... clearly something designed for a tiny baby was not capable of holding 85kgs worth of grown man!

rosa, good luck on your move... stressful i know, but you will be fine i am sure!

Don't move rosa!!! you looked so at ease among those canals . Rosa speaks perfect veneziano in case I haven't told you already.
Mind you, you'll find easy making new friends at any new school, because you are lovely. And most mums will try to force teach english to their little ones

Masseuse, how did your db manage to break dd's cot?

Thanks guys he is doing ok they have upped his meds now and he has to take it a bit easy ..Yeah right!
Time alone when does that happen ?
As for terra ferma it scares me rotten about moving away as it is I don't have many amici as my friends don't have children so we don't see much of each other now. Then the friends I am starting to make from nido etc I will be so sorry to loose as I finally have some out of family contacts and I will have to start all over again and its hard as you all know . Plus I want a decent area low crime ( hard one that) and it has to have easy access to Venice train or otherwise - I wonder if I can cope with the strain and stress of it all as it will be up to me to start researching it all SCARY - and as for making the move oh well will see.
P.s We have a Grembuile from Oviesse !!!!

hey everyone, hope you're enjoying this lovely hot day (well it's lovely in london...).

Camo, know exactly what you mean, whenever i go home i turn into my 16 yr old self, dh can't stand me... i think there's something about going back to your parents that reignites all the old dynamics. all about expectations etc. my little brother (29!!!) works for a multinational company, has an MBA, has travelled the world and yet we all treat him like some half-wit 12 year old who can't tie his shoelaces... and, lo and behold, as soon as he comes home he suddenly loses all ability to do anything without catastrophe (when he came to visit me after having dd1 he BROKE HER COT!!! i still can't get over it!)

McCloud, i so understand how you feel and that's why i really really need to keep working- i am no good with kids and chores 24/7. am actually mightily impressed that your dd can play in her cot (as dd2 refuses even to sleep in hers), so you must be doing something right...

all your talk about uniforms is making me sad... my dds will never wear those lovely english school uniforms, god knows where they'll end up going to school...

Have been watching Grand designs re runs on italian discover travel and living. And even re runs of No Going Back

Mccloud, hope you'll have a good day today. I know what you mean.

Penthe, ciao . Glad to hear things are improving with nanny. It takes a while to get adjusted and your dd's is at that particular stage when it's harder to leave mum.

Back to uniforms. I don't spend any extra money for school clothes, ds goes in his day to day clothes. Apart from grembiule, which is 10 euros at oviesse !

Oh, hello! Fine today, well maybe a bit early to say....Yesterday I shouted all day at ds, he so irritated me!!!!! And then I felt rubbish because he is a pretty good boy, entertains himself lots, good natured, lovely with dd, etc, but yesterday I just wanted to be alone and took it out on him. Poor boy. I sometimes feel that I do not manage to give proper attention to either of the kids, that I spend my time taking care of hteir physical needs, take care of hte house, etc, but I do not manage to do what I love doing and I used to do with ds when he was an only: long sessions chatting, having baths, cuddles, playing, ohhhhhhhhh, dd is lucky if she gets a meal on her high chair! I like their company but it is a drudgery having chores and cleaninng blah, blah.

Anyway today I do not want to feel overwhelmed so I am taking them to the paddling pool close by. And I am now enjoying a coffee alone, dd back in her cot for a little play, ds told to stay in his room till I am ready...ohhhh time alone, time alone.

Actually dd is screaming now!

Rosa, yes, how's your dad?

Camo - sorry the holiday was so stressful.

McCloud - What's up? Hope you're getting some sleep.

Franca - haven't said hello properly to you, I realise. Sorry! Hello!

Things got a bit better towards the end of the week with DD and the nanny. DD still cries when I leave, but only for a few minutes, it would seem. I think it's all going to be ok. <crosses fingers>

I love British uniforms, cheap and easy to wash, no way I would spend money on my grubby boy for school.

Had a terrible day and wish I was somewhere else with someone else. HOpefully a good night sleep will improve my mood.

Cannot wait to hear about your new homes, Rosa surely there are some nice places on terraferma (love this word) no? Camo you want to move area don't you? Sorry about general grimness fo the holiday, it's hard I know. Dream of city break without kids...

Off to bed...

Oh dear Camo, I'm so sorry to hear this. My mum has this tendency of treating both me and db like teenagers. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

As for uniforms. I remember I bought ds 2 white polo shirts with long sleeves at IANA (very warm and soft) and one from Benetton (a bit more expensive but nicer) when he was at school in the uk. Also 2 canottiere, you know cotton on the skin and wool fuori
I also refused to get him thoase obnoxious black shoes. Thankfully his school was a bit lax uniform wise.

oh, yes, rosa, forgot to ask about your dad, hope he's better.

My parents are still relatively young, but when i'm back there I'm suddenly a teenager again, treated and made to feel like one anyway. I do help with the chores, but unfortunately there's tension from a marriage that should have ended years ago, or could have been saved years ago had they or my gran moved out. then there's my 24yo sis going on 13, treating the house as a hotel (I mean, in 4 wks I was there I think she slept at home 5-6 times, stayed in 3 nights, the rest spent out partying/on the phone/sleeping on the couch, behaving like a spoilt brat really. and then the arguments between the 3 of them, me trying to stay out of it (got burnt a few times by trying to intervene, especially when I said that mum and sis are exactly the same so there'll always be attrito), I am constantly walking on egg shells. then I feel guilty for longing for london, so I feel homesick and want a house there so I can be close but avoid the wars (and have a place 3 times the size of this with a football pitch for a garden)... vicious circle really

oh, well, might go and view a 6 bed house next week, really need to move out before I go insane in this hole!

uniforms, don't get me started. ok, they come out of the washing machine virtually dry, but why oh why have those trousers!?!? t-shirts always look grey and have you checked the shoes? thick hard black rubber! winter is the worst though. at least girls can wear tights under skirts and dresses. I sent mum on a hunt for white long-sleeve polo shirts for ds and made him wear tights under his trousers (luckily he felt too cold to complain) last winter

should really carry on with the un-packing but keep on getting side-tracked by the grey dust covering everything (feeling a bit less impressed by the conservatory..)

sorry about the rant, just in a ranty mood, and now dd's waking up and must go

Hi rosa, how is your dad?
I'm sure your parents are so happy to have you around helping them out and having the dds to dote on...

Gosh yes, we will probably start flat hunting in milan in september... I feel for you...

Ello
MM sorry about your hols sounds like mine here ( less the sun of course).Mind you I don't mind as I want to do as much as I can for parents whilst I can so its ironing , washing , shopping etc but its hard work with 2 of them and also this house has lots more dangers than my Italian one and Minirosa is in to everything she can get her hands on.
Dh back in a very very hot Venice so glad still to be here. Probably we are going to start a house search on the mainland but need to find out where good schools doc etc are not sure where to start but agree we cannot go on hanging in there and hoping for Venice.
War and Peace erm not sure I would probably make a start and then you would be on page 5000 and I would still be on page 20!
School uniforms I touched some in tescos the other day and thought ....Child would sweat from APril onwards, Freeze from October as plastic doesn't keep a child warm. The shirts were not even cotton .....
Pente re No2 I would have waited but the bio clock was ticking . I would have aimed for 3-4 yrs between them but saying that I love the way dd1 has started 'teaching' minirosa how to do some of her toys - Not so much on teh removing of afore mentioned toys when she wants to play with them but can't complain really.

for cotton uniforms you could try www.eczemaclothing.co.uk. mind you they're 4 times more expensive than the plastic ones, but the quality on that website is usually superb (i buy pjs for dd1).

Camo and MM welcome back !

MM: I'm impressed by your in depth knowledge of Dirty dancing.
Who is Ayn Rand?

3 child. No, I think I left it too late. Mine are now 7 and 5, I'm not sure I could go back to have another one.
There's been a time in the past when I felt really broody, but didn't have the guts to actually act on this feeling (and convince dh to have a 3rd, he is not that keen), but nowadays I really don't feel that physical urge of reproducing again, as much as I love babies.
Plus I do have a really bad back, not sure a pg would help.

Pippi, lol at uniforms!! It was terribly depressing. ANd the smell of those teflon trousers! I bought lots of white proper cotton polo shirts in italy for ds when he was at school in the uk.
There are also lots of websites selling organic cotton uniforms (try google it), they are pricier of course, just don't mention it on MN
Not sure you'll ever find a wool jumper. It is weird how wool jumpers are impossible to find on the high street in the uk. But it's becoming the same in Italy .

Sputnik which post apocalypse books did you read?

Mccloud, I read a Cechov collection titled "I racconti della maturità". I found them superbly written, and yes, a bit depressing. But so revealing of the late 1800 russian society! Incredibly interesting.

Camo, I'm sorry to hear the holidays didn't go as well as you planned! You might find time to relax ... at work, like most of my working friends claim è

Welcome back Camo. You've been missed.

Hi everyone! back from hot hot hot italy to miserable surrey late last night! real shock to the system!

belated happy bday penthe (we're the same age!) and cin cin sputnik to the new house!

MM, I always wanted at least 2 (3 really, but reached a compromise with dh - still, not sure I could face 3 now!!). I also wanted a bit of a gap, but not too much, so thought about 2.5-3 years. then put it off for another year because of where we were with work but then I felt kind of "it's now or never". but we've also been lucky to get pg stright away both times. I get broody time to time, but then I think about the delivery and come back to my senses!

oh, how I need a proper holiday! things back home are very tense, as usual, and dd was very clingy so always with me to begin with, with DS turning into a bit of a brat - won't listen to me at all, just to dp , so on top of all also had to endure "if he was m son" etc comments from mum and dad. didn't even go to the beach as much as I wanted, and good in a way as it was always turning into a mission with mum complaining we were too slow and how it was pointless going mid afternoon etc etc. didn't get too see friends much either . I went out less and worked more than at home, didn't even managed to read la settimana enigmistica, never mind books!!
then I come home to work ringing me to see if I fancy swapping jobs with s.one and realising that I'm back to work in only 10 days after nearly 14 months .

but it was worth it, DS's italian has come on soooooooo much (with matching tan!) and dd has gone from houdini's little helper to master escapologist! OMG she's soo active, so hard work and sooooooo cheeky

oh, and DP built a conservatory too before joining us, not finished, but sooo impressed.

got w&p somewhere....

Or anyone, for that matter. Right now I'm off to bed.....

well who knows where i'll be then...

Might take you up on that! We have 4 years still to go here though.

well sputnik we could always set up the Little Italy geneva branch :-)

MM, sounds like you should get the move done and see how you feel then, don't envy you though.
Although where you are going would also be DH's first port of call to look for a new job if he loses this one, or they propose sending him somewhere he doesn't want to go, as his employers force people to rotate to new countries every 4 years. G would definitely be preferable to most of the places we could end up!

War and Peace, you guys are brave- personally i feel that no one will ever give me back the loooong boring hours i spent reading it, i am sure it's great but there's only so much description of battles and military campaigns a girl can take. The only thing i remember (and it's hardly a cliffhanger so you won't hate me) is that natasa insists on breasfeeding all her children herself, thus scandalising polite society. A Mnetter ante litteram :-)

i also always knew i wanted more than one and went for it as soon as i felt vaguely human again. i think my current broodiness is due to the fact that i know once things get a bit easier (when? when?!!!!) i will not want to go back to it, and so i feel i should do it now before i get a taste of freedom again.... but dh doesn't see it like that, and perhaps he's right

otoh i do feel so terrified of the future what with the move and everything that it feels good to know that i've got a "project" up my sleeve if all else fails...

I am the same with exercise, it is taking me longer to recover from no.2, hopefully I will get there in the end. Go on, get rid of the crap, it's liberating!

Yes exactly. I am not sure once we are out of the woods that I do want to go in it again this time. I am not even sure my body will recover from it (it will if I do some excercise but since realistically I talk and talk and watch Beeny in the evening instead of going running). Anyway DH made his point more than clear and I hope this will make me think along the same lines. I cannot get rid of baby stuff though even though they fill every crevice of the house.

YYY, exactly Pippi! There is a nearly 3 year gap between mine, I felt like I had had a chance to recover a bit. Though there was also an element of having to start all over again with the baby stuff. Anyway, I feel I am out of the woods now, no way am I going for no.3. Anyway, I have got rid of all my baby crap.

Just remembered I actually have a copy of W&P, along with quite a few other Russian novels that once belonged to my FIL. MIL wanted to chuck them so I rescued them and promptly forgot I had them. So if I enjoy W&P I'll move on to Anna Karenina.

yes! I like this War and Peace book club! Let's be ready to start it mid sept then.

I always knew I wanted more than one but wanted a bit of a gap to gain my mind and body back as I was quite shell shocked. It felt right when dd1 was 2.5. It happened quite soon after that. Also because by then you'd forgoten all the PITA of pg.

Again I do believe somehow that if I ever will feel really broody it might be when dd2 is at that age.

Sputnik dd1 has started to go to dd2 in the morning too which is such a blessing. she also used to come straight up to ours. It is sooo nice to lay in bed half asleep listening to them singing/reading/laughing.

Well, we got to the beach about 6, so not long there but everyone else was leaving by that time and you don't have to worry about the sun. DH and SIL had both been working, it's a complete novelty for us to do things after work. DH would normally be home at 8.30 in time for dinner and bed.

I'll order W&P and tackle it as the night draw in, I love nothnig more than a big fat book.

Re no.2, I couldn't contemplate another baby before DD was 2, agree pg and first year (even 2 years) suck in many ways, delicious and cute though babies are. Actually now DS is 2 I feel like my life is turning back to some kind of normality.
It is really nice having 2 though, in our new house they are sharing a room and they woke up and played together without bothering us this morning, normally DD wakes and zooms straight in to our room, think she is lonely on her own! Must reorganise her room here too and squeeze DS in there somehow so we can detatch the cot.

Yes, W&P as cozy read to get us through Autumn and Winter!

Speaking of wanting more babies, when did you ladies know you wanted no.2? I don't have any "urge" at all to have another (DD is 14.5mo). Will it happen to me? Or will I never feel it? In some way, I hope not, as I'm not sure that DH (as much use as he's been with DD anyway!) could handle another baby. But I feel bad thinking that DD could be an only...

Hmmmmm.

Also envious of beach trips. I long to swim in the sea...

MM - sorry that things are tough right now.

Go on Sputnik join us on a War and Peace epopea!

Very jealous of your beach trips! We had ONE sunny day yesterday and the park was jammed packed - busier that Rimini a Ferragosto.

I have started To the Lighthouse as well back in my youth and never finished it. Seemed slow and not in tune with my life, I bet I'd like it now.

I thought exactly that when I looked at the M&S uniform stuff, why no cotton skirts, fgs?

I have never read War and Peace, so might be up for that. I started To the Lighthouse and it was one of the very very few books I never finished, I was about 18 though.

I also have The Road on my mental list, but I'm currently on my 3rd post-apocalypse book in a row (not intentionallly, it just happened that way), so maybe in a few books time!

Just back from another very short beach trip and overnighter at the new house, we are getting there slowly. Fridge arrives tomorrow.

INTERCET????? What was I trying to say????

Are all school uniform made of such unnatural material like Teflon etc? I did touch a skirt in John Lewis and boy did it feel sintetica (mum was appalled)! Anyway I do see the point and probably will see it even more after first year. What did you get McC? M&S seems to do pretty things however the jargon is very scary: 'Teflon Coated' 'Stain Defence™ & Stormwear™'!!! What about dear old woolen pleated skirt, cotton blouse (I loath this word) and woolen jumper (don;t get cotton jumprs in winter)?

Ah the joys of being a foreigner mum...

tbh i don't think i'll have another. i suck at pregnancy, suck at babies and right now i even suck at marriage. on which note let me go talk to dh after shouting at him for an hour...

pippi did you get any news re dd1's school?

sorry but the thought of being on MN all day... it's good only in small doses... i wouldn't last a week as a fulltimer!

The plus side of being a swiss stepford is that you can be on MN ALL day!

If I were you I'd go for it. But do not come here all pg glowing and start making me feel all broody as I really am not at the moment. Quite the contrary. Dh and I seem to have a lot of time for ourselves and we go out and we are all relaxed etc I think a 3rd pg and babyhood will ruin us, at least now.

Yes I really am not a fan of that baby time because they do not intercet as such (I know they do bless 'em but YKWIM) and they are so physically needy (and yes mine slept all the time and never cried - god know what I'd do I get a screeching one!). I LOVE toddlerage and beyond. I truly start to think it is the best job in the world (pippi realises this statement labels her as a true braindead, cake baking, husband dependant SAHM but does not care one fogging bit !)

I though you had mentioned it in the park... yuppie I am so happy. It is a great old hardcover edition too. Shall I read that after AM then? And when I come back from Italy we start the War and Peace project? I feel it is an Autumn, if not winter, book all right, no?

DD misses nursery so much bless and I cannot even talk much about school as in un piede su due staffe about the whole thing. Poverina.

but surely if i have a third after two hard work non sleeping ones he is bound to be easy peesy???? plus remember i'll be a desperate housewife in switzerland with nothing meaningful to do...

I have restarted some stories of checkov, but i find them so dark and depressing, i just want the guy to lighten up a bit. what did you think Franca of them? is it just me?

oh dear and what do you do if you get another girl? you might end up so resentful! and surely you want to get yourself some sleep?

The first year of babies is meraviglioso, the begiining of the bonding, the not talking, the happy just sitting there looking. Still mine slept quite a lot as babies, yours too pippi though no? Fancy yolu not being a fan of little babies, they are so easy. But it is lovely the talking years and all the rest too.

have recently read the d lessing you have just bought, the diary of jane somers, it is WONDERFUL, don't get put off at the beginning at the beginning by the subject (old age and death), i was totally gripped, very well written, it made me think of relationship with my mother, etc. Set in the 80s in London, she describes its changes in season very well.

Cannot believe you bought the book i just bloody read. (we were split at birth or something emoticon)

Had an anxiety ridden day, menstrual and all that.

you've got a couple of years advantage then...

i am 33

MM are you same age as me?

MM those are all MY reasons for sometimes thinking of having a 3rd... except that I do not like being pg at all and do not fancy the first year much either. If they could give my child to me at around 1ish I'do it tomorrow. DH is one of 2 so he is perfectly content the way we are, we will see.

Sorry about situation with dh... it is hard at times isn't it? <understatement of the year>. We had a rocky patch before the hols - too much stress, too busy, therefore lack of communication and empathy. Back very much on track now though which is great. I bet you if you ask him he probably didn;t even notice .

I'm putting Vasco on my iPod... ahhh the memories.

UUUUUUUna Spledida GIooooornata.....

she was named Frances after the first woman in Congress, if you really must know...

relieved i don't have to read Ayn Rand. she sounds pallosissima.

why do i want a third, apart from the fact that i am mad? i suppose it's because i am one of 3 and it was lovely growing up, because i want a boy (i am so sad) and because i can't get over the fact that i will never have another baby again... otoh my ones are such hard work, and i am so not a natural mother (girls curring drinking their bottles-yes even the 3 1/2 in front of a dvd while i MN... can't summon energy to do bedtime). if i am honest at this rate it's more likely i'll find myself without dh than with another kid, having an awful time but that's for another thread...

Have you read Diary of Jane Sanders by Doris Lessing? Just got it from charity shop.

What about the one entitled Jacob something or other? I will try and find the letter and diaries, though I imagine them full of morbid thoughts...

lol at the waiter.

That boy, named Billy if I remembered correctly , was indeed a waiter!

Of course we are witty and clever! How can he doubt it?

To the Lighthouse and Mrs. Dalloway. Not very original of me.

Orlando, next, I suppose.

I really like her diaries and letters. DH got me them all for my birthday one year. Super. And her essays are fantastic too.

Goodness the useless shit one remembers.

Dp just told me that I look as if I writing something particularly witty and clever because I am raising my eyebrows as I type. I did tell him that we are talking about DD and the Frances/Baby character. He pissed himself laughing.

I believe her "real" name is Frances!

Shit. How many times have I watched DD to remember that?

Penthe can you tell me your favourite novels by V. Woolf?

lol, at Baby reading the Fountainhead!

and lol at calling a dd Baby. [puke emoticon]

I mean "her", not "it", of course!

Wotcha, MM! Welcome back!

Ohhhhh. I am so at all these lovely holidays...

Ayn Rand - never read it. My only point of reference is the obnoxious boy in Dirty Dancing who recommends it to Baby.

Yep, agree, crap.

Nope, nobody is pregnant, infact we all seem to agree that 2 is the perfect number. I am going to be daring and ask why do you want another one? I cannot imagine anything worse for us and for my dd who as it is does not get a lot of attention, cannot bear the idea of her becoming the middle child. I almost left in the park the other day in the pram, luckily I remembered about her at the park gate. Poverina.
Do you know what you will do in Switzerland?

Welcome back MM. You sound fantastic. Must have had a great holiday, especially the Matera bit .

Ayn Rand ... think you have missed the boat tbh. It is one of these author that you should read at 18. I read it then (someone said that every waiter/ress in the world had read AR and it is sooo true!) and the anarchic in me thought: "wow"!. I think about it often now and think - what crap!

ciiiiaaaooo ragazze!! how are you???

just back from holiday and a bit shell-shocked. was lovely, dh and even managed to escape Saudi Calabria and the kids for 24 hours of blissful coupledom in Matera (have you ever been? it's absolutely amazing!! who would have thought). Now back to work, and to the nightmarish reality that i will have to move to switzerland in 3 months!!!!!!

aaarrrgghhhhhh

who's pregnant? i so want a 3rd child but then rationally i think it's madness. will be spending 2 months without dh here in london and i am sure that will cure me of any delusions to add to the workload family.

i read so much crap on holidays (mostly the Stieg Larsson trilogy which is really, really bad) and this morning was idly wondering whether i should read Ayn Rand or whether i can survive without it? what do you smart lot think?

baci a tutte

Oooooooooooooooooh thanks mccloud.

Hons and Rebels is an account of JM's childhood and giovinezza, very interesting.

I need to force ds on his homeworks, but he is too busy playing "boats"...

What is Jessica Mitford like? I wanted to read a book of letters the Mitford sisters wrote to each other...
Franca your book is on its way...

Boiling here, ds with his favourite playdate, all day in the garden, perfect day...baby asleep...

Actually a perfect day would be alone with a book.

Beeney's pregnant again? I envy her energy.

Mc Cloud I'm not sure why I bought the Enright book, given that last year I read The Gathering and was totally nonplussed. I probably bought it because it was one of the few books in english on sale which wasn't chick lit. It's a collection of short stories. Only 2 are actually worth reading.

I liked Sarah Waters the nightwatch, it is set in London during ww2, so, my kind of thing. Not a masterpiece, but very coinvolgente.

I read The road. Not sure I'm up for Proust. I could be tempted into War and Peace...

If you can wait till I get back I'll get it in italian. Lots of weight in the suitcase.

btw I meant The Golden Notebook that I could not finish. Have not started the other two.

Like I said to you the other day I cannot say it is complete but at the same time I do not want to go through the whole pg first year business. Also DH's point is that with a third he'd feel so much more under pressure to support them and feels is life wil be over. I can see his point so I hope that this will make me stop thinking about it.

or maybe it was not Katherine Hepburn.boh.

It is odd I never think of a third one....la mia famiglia e' completa.

If we do W and P of course we will never be able to mumsnet, email, infact do anything at all....I would suggest reading it in Italian though Pippi, I have the Leone Ginzburg translation infact i doubt any translator has tampered with it, maybe Franca knows. More than a book club it would become a support group for getting through those long war scenes that made no sense to me....And then we could watch the movie with Audrey Hepburn.

I can do War and Peace. Have to go and get it though.
I also have The Road on my pile and Native Son and The Golden Notebook which I have started and not able to continue.

Off to read email.

No I said to dh " oh do you know sometimes I think I could have a 3rd one ..." and he went " NO WAY!!!!! BLAH BLAH BLAH "

and I wasn't even that serious. At least now I know where he is at.

War and Peace? Can I tempt you with it? REad it as a teenager, skipping the war pages which I found so dull, but would like to retry now that I am older and wiser (NOT).

yes in French, have read the first 2 parts, but found A l'ombre really hard going and kept forgetting bitses.

Which Woolf do you have to read? I only read To the lighthouse and Ms Dalloway, would love to re-read the first one. Which one are in your opinion her best? This reminds me I have a book about her entitled All that summer she was mad, lol, have not read it, but bought it 2nd hand for the title, very trashy. Povera Virginia.

Native Son
The Golden Notebook
The Road (trashy, and am too scared to read it, actually )
The Kindly Ones (bought it ages ago, still not read it... )

Also, need to re-read lots of stuff for work next semester:

loads of theory stuff
Marx, Nietzsche, Freud
Joyce
a stack of novels and poems for another course
etc.: Woolf, Orwell, MacNeice, Graves, Lawrence, etc.

Are you going to read Proust in French? <impressed>

Well I am up for anything. On my list I have War and Peace, bits of Proust, a Doris Lessing, checkov's plays (retry), and cannot rememmber what else.
what is on your list?

What have you got in mind?

so anyone up for reading something else all together?

is your dp keen to have a 3rd one then pippi?

she only has boys hasnt she? i like her lots i must say....

will check email..

If I spent less time MN-ing, and more time reading, I would've finished SC yonks ago. I suck. Boooo.

Ha - I saw Beany (Beaney? sp?) on one of those Saturday morning cooking shows looking up-the-duff, and was amazed at her constant state of preggers-ness. She is one fertile lady.

Hey, ladies - in the new spirit of Daily Mail paranoia, I have a related thing to tell you, but don't want to mention it here... Check your email!

yup 3 and one on the way. 36 year old. blimey she's always pg.

was wondering the same about beeny and 4th child. will google now. that started a non-argument about 3rd child with dh .

yes I thought so too that he wanted to put all these layers to mirror the way life really is but he failed totally. I cannot think at the moment of a book that did this successfully but when they do you just know it as it feels like real life.

oh and yes about Nathan being the greatest and the baddest, how obvious - as if in life it is really like that.

anyway enough. Penthe tell us more when you fifinsh it, if you ever. I was so tempted to stop it half way if not for wanting to read about this choice and because I wanted to discuss it.

Thank you Penthe! Love your writing. Do any of you want to read a book with me to discuss online?

Just watched Snakes and Ladders, goodness scary people not selling their developments...and is Beeny pregnant again?

Hey all.

Re: Sophie's Choice, I've still not finished (reading other stuff, too much time on the internet ), but I agree, to a certain extent, about your analysis. A bit disappointing.

There is an element of unreliable narrator/youthful narrator though, I suppose: Sophie is not the best or most reliable teller of her own tale/Stingo is looking back at the young idiot he was/the "deception" of Nathan: so perhaps some of the superficiality/stereotyping, etc. is meant to generate that impression. However, I think that - on the whole - if this is his strategy, it doesn't work very well (particularly since he frequently alludes to these ideas, so it's rather "in your face").

Agree that there are too many themes, or at least too many for him to manage successfully. Again, however, I wonder whether this isn't "deliberate", in the sense that the superfluity of themes mirrors the superfluity of horror - things moving out of control, etc.; plus, as a young editor at the beginning of the book, it is ironic that he can't "edit" his own tale, that it runs away from him, to a degree.

Have already implied that I found the Nathan/Sophie thing a bit soap-operaish.

Also, the Nathan as great predictor of things to come (e.g. success of Jewish American writers; invention of the tape WTF???!) is just a bit naff, IYSWIM. I dislike that kind of retrospective "prophecy" in fiction.

Anyway, I still need to finish in order to say more...

Nanny going ok, although DD still being resistant and a bit sad.

agree re McEwan who I do not get. Never read anything by the other two.

re: playdate, it has never happend tbh. Only once dd1 had a friend over who although a year older and apparently very bubbly was a bit of a wingeing PITA. I could not say anything as there was nothing to say, but I did say that did ask a few times to be taken home etc.

I'd like to say that I'd say something, especially if it is a behavious of the likes you experienced. The reality is I'd probably shut up and not invite ever again! boh. will let you know when it happens.

off to watch sarah beeny. might be on later.

What is Sarah Waters like? And got rid of an Enright after reading one page. Always suspicious of novels who are rated a lot in British newspapers, see McEwan.

Be back later in case you also don't have a life..

for instance the other day this boy who is normally nice, on the shy side, started playing with a ball and crashing it against plants in the garden,,,told him off but he carried on, only stopped when the ball went over the fence. then a bit later ds was shouting at him, came down and the boy was pushing the armchair through the sitting room...told him off but he looked at me in a defiant way..was shocked as this boy is normally good, ds likes him a lot, play a lot at school, but the other day i was tempted to throw him out for lack of respect...

no, dont like auster at all. would shag him though.

did i tell you that some time ago i saw due di noi by de carlo in my local charity shop! and i wondered if it was my copy or even yours!

got rid of my 2 as well, not sure what i amm going to do tonight....

actually wanted to ask you girls. when you have a kid over for a playdate and his behaviour is erratic, nothing really bad, but a bit of a pain ,do you mention it to the mum? or do you just not invite the kid again? it seems weird, spending part of a date telling a kid off, and then when the mum arrives say "oh, he was lovely...". anyway i tend not to say, and invite less over.

do you think? I like him a lot. not all of the books of course, some are quite sameish.

dd2 is screaming from the bedroom - she is refusing to go to bed. she is so tired though. let's see who gives in first. dd1 has collapsed asleep on the sofa with still highish temp. I am eating crisps.

sorry but paul auster is another de carlo!
am is alice munro

I'm ashamed to say that I've never read paul Auster .

portraying... sorry dd2 is treating me like a cklimbing frame

Oh yes, I see Pippi re delating... though I don't think you are recognizable, tbh...

Paul Auster is great in portray NYC though, don't you think? You read it, you see it and you are in it, no?

la maiala... swine flu

Oh yes. that.
Though I liked the bit where he writes about going to the beach and coney island. But I'm a sucker when it comes to anything NYC...

What's AM? sorry, lots of questions. I've been away far too long

i think canesten is fine, dd had some sudocream the otehr day and survived...it was a nighmare she had it smear=ed everywhere...

la maiala????

rosa come back soon!

oh not threads but maybe some entries with a few details.. i.e. re SIL or location etc. Everything else can stay is all jibber jabber...unless unless the DM wants to use it to portray the meanningless lives of foreigners housewives !

Wow what a perfect holiday you must have had Franca!!!

AH another thing - how much I dislkied the bit in which Stingo goes to that Leslie's house. anyway enough of Sophie. Maybe the reason I am so cross with it is because I really expected a great book.

why do you want to delete threads?

emphasize? no, I meant EMPATHIZE (spelling?)

ah siiiii. Yes that's what I meant to. The whole storywhich could have been perfectly credible in historical terms was totally unbelievable once put on a book.

I must give this book away because the mere sight of it annoys me. Anybody wants it?

Will start reading AM today.

DD2 has eaten some Canesten Nappy Rush cream. She has found it, thought it was teething gel and bit it and made a whole. she seems fine. should I worry? Imagine this on the DM????

Hi Rosa, sorry to hear you are unwell. Hope it goes soon nad is not the maiala...

Pippi, sorry, I didn't want to give you the idea that I don't believe things like those could not have happened. Worst things happened (have just watched a documentary on the strage di sant'anna di stazzema ). The scenario is totally belivable.
What I found difficult to "believe", or, to put it better, to emphasize with is thaT Sophie came up with her choice very quickly. What you are scared, in front of a bloody scary Nazi general, in the scariest place in the world, how do you manage to think, oh I send the little one, as the big one might survive? t is too rational, in an irrational context, iyswim... the rest of sophie's story is totally believable, and I actually found it quite moving when she tried to seduce the other nazi hoping he could help with her son survival...

Mc cloud I have just read:
Sarah Waters The Night Watch
Jessica Mitford Hons and Rebels
A collection of checov's short stories
And i&