Do You Write or Think? Mr Nietzsche's Assessment of Your Dilemma.

(382 Posts)
onebatmotherofgoditschilly Mon 07-Jan-08 21:59:03

I had forgotten this:

"The literary woman, unsatisfied, agitated, desolate in heart and entrails, listening every minute with painful curiosity to the imperative which whispers from the depths of her organism "aut liberi aut libri [either children or books]."
—Friedrich Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols

Ten years ago I would have turned the page with a sigh and a sneer.


SueBaroo Tue 08-Jan-08 09:12:32

OBM, I have that dilemma everyday grin

PrismManchip Tue 08-Jan-08 09:15:44

Very close to the bone, that.....
Who are the childless female authors?

littlelapin Tue 08-Jan-08 09:18:44

Not sure this is how Nietzsche intended it wink but to me that is about the dilemma between taking your children to the park, or plonking them in from the TV so you can read just one more chapter...

Cappuccino Tue 08-Jan-08 09:21:10

is it the idea that we have to choose to create just one of them, and whatever we choose that'll do, or that once we have one we don't have time for the other?

if it's the former, it's as patronising as hell

PrismManchip Tue 08-Jan-08 09:23:44

Oh I interpreted it as the choice between having children or carrying on with your literary life - writing, reading, living like you are in a novel...

PrismManchip Tue 08-Jan-08 09:24:39

yes just as Capp said
I don't find it patronising tbh
Because I find it hard to be creative now my mind is all child child child

littlelapin Tue 08-Jan-08 09:26:15

I think you have hit it on the head, Capp, it's the creation aspect.

littlelapin Tue 08-Jan-08 09:27:08

Prism, I think your interpretation is correct, my interpretation is somewhat facetious and from the perspective of a reader not a writer wink

SueBaroo Tue 08-Jan-08 09:30:37

It's not insurmountable, though. It's not an absolute choice.

Cappuccino Tue 08-Jan-08 09:31:22

you know I am always torn on this one

on the one hand I think it is shocking that women get the burden of childcare to the extent that they cannot explore their creativity to the full

on the other hand it makes me angry when women choose to define themselves through this dilemma

I recently discontinued my subscription to Mslexia and one of the least rational reasons for not wanting to read it was constantly reading the biographies provided by women who had had work accepted for publication in the magazine

they were all "Eloise writes stories in the morning before sorting out her family's socks and pottering in her garden"

there is no way that a man would write a biog which was so spineless and demonstrated so little commitment to being taken seriously as a writer

Anna8888 Tue 08-Jan-08 09:33:38

Except that raising children is an exceptionally creative endeavour... don't see the dilemma, personally.

Cappuccino Tue 08-Jan-08 09:34:34

are you trying to write a novel Anna? wink

PrismManchip Tue 08-Jan-08 09:37:12

No it is not an absolute choice, I know that (I write a bit, amateurishly). My brain is so full of "child" though, it's like living in a fog.
Yuk at the biogs. I always hate those little biogs that mention the children at all, so twee - I suppose though it's a way of saying "I work bloody hard and I want you to know it and be impressed that I can do this and bear the burden of childcare".

Twiglett Tue 08-Jan-08 09:40:03

actually I think what Nietzsche failed to grasp is that women are biologically and intrinsically different from man and that one needs to look at a woman over her entire life to make a point like this

Our childbearing years, if devoted to children allow us to create and mould life itself .. we can devote ourselves to this or we can split our creativity into more erudite pursuits as well

Then we have the benefit of the menopause when our bodies rewire themselves to allow our creativity to shine through, which biologically occurs at the time of the 'empty nest' (although not, these days, in fact) allowing our ability to bring our experiences and creativity to bear

Nietzshe .. bolleaux grin

PrismManchip Tue 08-Jan-08 09:41:34

Hooray for Twig!

SueBaroo Tue 08-Jan-08 09:41:49

I pour a lot of my creativity into mothering. But it isn't the same thing as writing, which generally requires space and quiet.

I don't think it's a choice between 'mothering and creativity'. It's a choice, at some points, between creativity through writing, and creativity through parenting.

Cappuccino Tue 08-Jan-08 09:42:57

Twig makes a good point

is Nietzsche falling into that old Jane Austen trap of thinking that women are only of any kind of interest when they are 'in their bloom'?

SueBaroo Tue 08-Jan-08 09:43:08

Nietzshe .. bolleaux


Quoted for truth. One of the funniest t-shirts I ever saw said

Nietzshe is dead.


teasle Tue 08-Jan-08 09:44:36

Remember Nietzsche went as mad as a fish- not to discount his huge body of writings or anything...

PrismManchip Tue 08-Jan-08 09:46:09

I just find the constant grasping for the idea or the word that is just out of reach so demoralising.
I have a degree in English Language, I used to not need a thesaurus - now I cannot finish a thought without either ds needing my attention or some intrusive thought about ds needing my attention.

Cappuccino Tue 08-Jan-08 09:48:01

I get what you mean Pruni but I felt even less creative when I was working as a journalist because my head was wired differently - get facts, present clearly, move on

so I don't really think it's necessarily just about childcare, but maybe more about making a mental commitment which is hard if you do anything else, child-related or not?

Anna8888 Tue 08-Jan-08 09:48:34

I write for a living - not novels, but there is a strong creative element. I hadn't done any writing proper for three years when I started again (in November) but I am finding that being a mother and seeing things through the eyes of my child is a huge help to the creative part of my writing wink

Cappuccino Tue 08-Jan-08 09:50:07

well then Anna you are living proof that Nietzsche was talking out of his behind then surely

PrismManchip Tue 08-Jan-08 09:50:15

Yes perhaps capp.
No definitely.
God I once had the opportunity pre-ds to go abroad for two months, all paid for, while dh worked, and just write.
I so wish it had worked out. (He got ill just before we left so it was cancelled.....)

Threadworm Tue 08-Jan-08 09:56:22

I wonder exactly what Nietzsche meant by these remarks. It could just as easily be a comment about the unsupportive circumstances in which literary women find themselves as a comment about the women themselves.

He had at least one woman intellectual friend whom he regarded with great respect -- Helen Zimmern, who translated some of his work into English. He referred to her as 'very clever' and as the person who introduced Schopenhauer to the English.

When asked if she had seen any signs of maddness in Nietzshe, she replied rather oddly that 'he did insist on eating an apple every day', thereby eliding the rather useful distinction between insanity and a healthy diet.

She was childless, I tnink. It just wasn't very easy to be a married intellectual in those days. Think of poor Hedda Gabbler (sp?)

SueBaroo Tue 08-Jan-08 09:58:35

*gets out copy of The Yellow Wallpaper*

littlelapin Tue 08-Jan-08 10:00:52

I find the rest of the quote quite patronising:

The literary female, unsatisfied, agitated, empty in her heart and belly, always listening with pained curiosity to the imperative which whispers out of the depths of her organism, “aut liberi aut libri” - the literary female, sufficiently educated to understand the voice of nature even when it speaks Latin, and yet sufficiently vain and goose enough to speak secretly to herself in French, "je me verrai, je me lirai, je m’extasierai et je dirai: Possible, que j’aie eu tant d’esprit?"

("I shall see myself, I shall read myself, I shall go into ecstasies, and I shall say: ‘Is it possible that I should have had so much spirit?’")

SueBaroo Tue 08-Jan-08 10:03:27

I think it just boils down to the simple practicality of opportunity to me.

Although I would agree with Anna8888 that my children have given me another element of creativity in my writing. But I just don't physically get to do it as often as I'd like, and often have found myself too spent by the end of the day to attempt it.

SueBaroo Tue 08-Jan-08 10:06:34

"I shall see myself, I shall read myself, I shall go into ecstasies, and I shall say: ‘Is it possible that I should have had so much spirit?’"


Ah, now you see, I identify with that - read something I've written and thought 'Blimey, was that me?'

Threadworm Tue 08-Jan-08 10:08:06

And remember that he was just as scathing and contemptuous in his remarks about men. I don't know anything about his views on women. I want to find out now! But I suspect the quoted remarks could well be a comment on contemporary society rather than on femaleness as such.

Anna8888 Tue 08-Jan-08 10:10:56

SueBaroo - write in the morning wink. Café, croissant, two hours of peace and - presto smile.

SueBaroo Tue 08-Jan-08 10:17:07

Anna8888, yes, actually, getting up before the crack of dawn has been useful before now. I might give it a go again.

*Ponders the delightful image of a two hour lounge in a cafe with a croissant and a coffee*

Cappuccino Tue 08-Jan-08 10:41:19

I would just end up reading the papers blush

Peachy Tue 08-Jan-08 10:44:28

no no no no no

I did the module on him last term

I passed

tis enough I tell you

Wondering if was the inspiration for certain childless childcare guru types.....

(must admit to having a few things published pre kids in journals etc BUT I will have time again one day, and less 'formal' essay writing to do, and a lot more life material to utilise as well)

Peachy Tue 08-Jan-08 10:45:13

(threadworm have a couple of his books going spare I can post if you want to CAT me)

Threadworm Tue 08-Jan-08 10:47:49

Thanks Peachy. I have quite a lot of his books, but 'the imperatives whispering from the depths of my organism' (aka Ds1 and DS2) have kept me away from them. Hence my desolate entrails.

SueBaroo Tue 08-Jan-08 10:49:44

Hence my desolate entrails


My new book title grin

Threadworm Tue 08-Jan-08 10:54:23


Threadworm Tue 08-Jan-08 11:07:49

Actually, come to think of it, I have plenty of time for books:

"The literary woman, unsatisfied, agitated, desolate in heart and entrails, listening every minute with painful curiosity to the imperative which whispers from the depths of her organism "aut Matronnet aut libri [either Mumsnet or books]."

onebatmother Tue 08-Jan-08 11:19:03

lol threadworm
Matronnet - the world's best mithering site.
Haven't read the thread yet. Called away last night by vomit.

Desolate in their entrails? Did he think babies come out of ladies' bottoms.

Threadworm Tue 08-Jan-08 11:36:41

Lol at 'called away by vomit' -- whispers from DC's organism? Desolate entrails indeed.

(I mean, I assume he was meaning to refer to the empty womb of the literary woman)

Actually I don't know enough about Nietsche's work to make any very sensible comments on these words as he may have meant them in context.

But, I do think that although one's ability to undertake creative or intellectual projects is likely to be compromised while in the charge of small children, overall, one's understanding of language, psychology and many other things pertinent to literary creation are all enormously enriched by the experience of having and rearing children.

I'm looking forward to 50 myself.

onebatmother Tue 08-Jan-08 11:58:46

I quite like the entrails bit! I read it as guts, which seems to take the question seriously, at least.

Cappuccino, I suspect Eloise is sorting the socks that the cleaner has already ironed and folded. Eloise will then be placing them neatly in each child's linen-press and awaiting the purr of the peoplecarrier, which signals the safe arrival home of her darlings, and is always followed by the squeak-slump of Magda- the-au-pair's birkenstocks as she ushers them into the large basement kitchen on whose rustic table Eloise's vivid arrangement of wild flowers (grown in her kitchen garden) sits in a chipped cream pitcher.

I don't like Eloise much, I've realised.

Threadworm Tue 08-Jan-08 12:02:12

V. much agree with your penultimate paragraph, Iorek. (Apart from anything else -- and there is much else -- how much excellent children's literature like Pullman's has the experience of parenting at its core.) The magical months of witnessing my children's language acquisition were incredibly enlightening: made me think often of Wittgenstein.

SueBaroo Tue 08-Jan-08 12:03:55

excellent children's literature


My goal for the end of this year! Not kidding actually, although I'm not calling it a resolution, because that would tempting idleness.

onebatmother Tue 08-Jan-08 12:04:31

Oh gosh, I thought that desolate entrails meant churning guts (which are appalled at the choice that they were going to be called upon to make)?

Rather than the empty womb of the literary woman (who has already made her choice)..

Hmm.. perhaps you're right Iorek. That would be rather patronising..

Nietzsche and The Desolate Entrails will be my new band. When I'm fifty.

Perhaps by then it will be compulsory to be fifty before forming band?

Swedes2Turnips1 Tue 08-Jan-08 12:04:58

DS1 and DS2 (15 and 12) were having a chat as they unloaded the dishwasher last night.
DS1 'Don't stop just to talk, keep unloading!'
DS2 'I'm not a woman!' (and thus unable to multitask).

Why creativity/books or children? Didn't women multi task in Prussian Saxony in the 19th Century? tut

Threadworm Tue 08-Jan-08 12:09:26

Neitzsche seems to have been obsessed with his churning guts since he often used them as metaphor: e.g., something like 'the neurotic man is like the man with indigestion: he can never have done with anything.'

--i.e. (I suppose) his anxieties and self-doubts keep repeating on him, like raw onion after a salad.

Swedes2Turnips1 Tue 08-Jan-08 12:11:25

Threadworm - Continentals and their bodily functions. shock

Threadworm Tue 08-Jan-08 12:12:41

Yes, I often think Kafka would not have written as he did if he was not so obsessed with his poorly tummy.

ahundredtimes Tue 08-Jan-08 12:14:12

Virginia Woolf always called her books her children didn't she?

It is difficult to do both - one requires altruism the other utter selfishness.

I'm also not entirely sure it makes anyone a better writer because they've had children. I resist that idea slightly, I don't think it's true.

ahundredtimes Tue 08-Jan-08 12:18:44

In fact Virginia would have agreed with him, I think.

Swedes2Turnips1 Tue 08-Jan-08 15:09:16

Interestingly, Nietzsche also said "All truly great throughts are conceived while walking" which suggests he thought brilliance did not come from labouring quietly - unlike Flaubert who thought one could not write except when seated (on ne peut penser et ecrire qu'assis). If only Nietzsche was clearer, perhaps "All truly great thoughts are conceived while.....
potty training
changing nappies
cleaning the highchair"

onebatmother Tue 08-Jan-08 17:27:03

lol swedes!
scraping vomit?

Threadworm Tue 08-Jan-08 17:32:18

What about:

"Some great thoughts are conceived ... at the same time as your children."

(For those whose minds sometimes wander during lovemaking.)

onebatmother Tue 08-Jan-08 17:33:42

speak for yourself, I am always far too busy concentraing on shopping list.

Threadworm Tue 08-Jan-08 17:37:24

I often think of Tristram Shandy, whose mother, at the moment of his conception, shouted to her DH 'My lord, you have forgot to wind the clock!'

Elizabetth Tue 08-Jan-08 17:41:20

How many male authors never became fathers? Neitzsche never managed it did he, so what's his point really?

onebatmother Tue 08-Jan-08 18:10:39

I always thought his point was the iniquity but inevitability of the choice..

LL's addition completely foxes me though - is it me? is he comprehensible to everyone else?

I do love, though, the idea that feminine, fey or foolish thoughts (or all three) are internally expressed in French. Makes sense to me!

Swedes2Turnips1 Tue 08-Jan-08 18:13:47

I'm not sure how you all manage these thoughts whilst lovemaking and turn the pages of Grazia?

SueBaroo Tue 08-Jan-08 18:33:12

I manage with prescription meds with a very meditative quality grin

onebatmother Tue 08-Jan-08 19:19:27

swedes query grazia repl. granta surely?

Swedes2Turnips1 Tue 08-Jan-08 20:33:25

onebat - Of course, I meant Granta. "People who looked at this magazine, also looked at ...
London Review of Books Magazine, The Times Literary Supplement, Skirmish Magazine, Jane Austen's Regency World, Magazine History Today Magazine and Corsets and Crotches Quarterly"

Swedes2Turnips1 Tue 08-Jan-08 20:36:22

Onebat - I am mixing up my threads. I thought this was the Sense and Sensibility thread.

<onebat happy new year by the way>

onebatmother Tue 08-Jan-08 20:38:58

it was still bloody funny though!

onebatmother Tue 08-Jan-08 20:39:45

<and to you too my (female) darling!>

Swedes2Turnips1 Wed 09-Jan-08 10:27:39

Mixing up my threads on this thread, has a certain poignancy - doesn't it? I'm not cut out for the bounty of multi-tasking and should choose, immediately..... aut liber aut lbri?

I'm going to tell DP that I need a week at a good Spa to give this matter due consideration. To conclude while cooking risotto just doesn't feel right - it wouldn't be fair to me or the risotto.
Has anyone been to the Spa Angst in Leipzig?

onebatmother Wed 09-Jan-08 11:23:41

haha! Esp with comedy ludicrously gutteral germanic pronunc.

Spar Arngsht. New Year, New Entrails!

Swedes2Turnips1 Wed 09-Jan-08 18:57:31

I think colonic irrigation (at the Spa Angst) would be appropriate. Are there other treatments that might help my entrails?

Twiglett - Nietzsche's father died when he was very young (5 from memory) and he was raised in a household that was predominantly female (it may actually have been entirely female). He should have been good at observing women.

onebatmother Wed 09-Jan-08 23:22:11

okay, so took the bull by the horns today. Had Aut liberi aut libri tattooed on my knuckles.

onebatmother Wed 09-Jan-08 23:24:12

2 letters per knuckle, and a Spanish exlamation mark at the beginning and at the end. Just in case you think you've spotted a flaw in my account of my day, Swedes...

Swedes2Turnips1 Wed 09-Jan-08 23:28:51

I think they offer tattoo removal at the Spa Angst. I don't know what you mean by spotted a flaw in your day, am I being very thick?

onebatmother Wed 09-Jan-08 23:35:21

too many letters for knuckles. then if you have 2 per knuckle you have a knuckle left over, hence spanish upside down exclamation marks.

Nurse has just called me to bed, and I believe I will hear her this time..

Monkeytrousers Fri 11-Jan-08 15:43:56


anyone fancy Nietzsche?

Just thought I'd bring down the tone a bit

I bet all you that like Gorden Brown would have. All that will to power

He's overtheorising I think. This is the "pram in the hallway" with knobs on.

Isn't the main issue that when women have children they grow up pdq and have to spend a lot of time dedicated to others and therefore don't have much spare time to dedicate to thinking about exactly what eating a madeleine is like hmm

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 17:05:22

lol monkey and margo!

Think you've hit the nail on the head Margo. One is too busy wiping the madeleine off the walls.

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 17:36:57

"baking madeleines", Iorek, surely?

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 17:46:21

in fragrant kitchen, with the sound of children's laughter echoing through the house?

Yes that's right. It's like a Doris Day film round my house...

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 17:53:19

Caster sugar is key and the lemons should be unwaxed, much like my bikini line.

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 17:56:34

My bikini line is much like Nietzsche's moustache.

fireflytoo Fri 11-Jan-08 18:03:48

...I was told that when I had children I won't have time to read anymore... gringringrin... I just had fat BF babies.

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 18:05:58

Nietzsche's moustache smile

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 18:10:30

can't see nietzsche's bikini line/moustache swedes, link won;t work!

I heard Nietzsche favoured the Brazilian

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 18:17:11

[[ g/450px-FriedrichNietzsche_drawn_by_HansOlde.jpg ]]My bikini line

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 18:17:52

Whoops try again

no that's not working either.

The suspense is unbearable.

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 18:19:56

Nietzsche's 'tache or Threadworm's personal neglect? You decide

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 18:20:36

Is anyone else humming ZZ Top songs?

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 18:21:35

Threadworm - that is the very link I tried originally. It is a whole lot of moustache isn't it?

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 18:24:23

grin These highly intellectual threads on mumsnet just prove the falsity of Nietzsche's dissing of mothers' creative potential, don't they.

Wow. Threadworm you must be a whole lotta woman.

Yes quite Threadworm. If old merkin 'tache could see us now he'd be eating his words.

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 18:30:08

lolololol at both of them! I had NO idea!
can you imagine a leetle bit of front-bottom/moustache action with Frrrriedrrrrrich? It would be almost.. bestial.

And oh god, think of the food bits that would be hiding deep beneath the combed outer layer of mouth-fringe.

It's true - highly unhygenic. No wonder he was having trouble with his entrails.

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 18:33:08

lol Iorek

And his literary ladyfriend, "listening every minute with painful curiosity.. to the snuffling animal burrowing down below"

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 18:34:23

fireflytoo ye-es. Ye-es, me too.


OBM please write a novel about Nietzsche's sex life.

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 18:37:27

Oh god, I wouldn't let him snuffle at my burrow.

dittany Fri 11-Jan-08 18:39:57

If Friedrich Nietzsche were alive today he'd be one of the guys turning up at Hillary Clinton's political rallies waving his placard saying "Iron my shirts". Knob.

FluffyMummy123 Fri 11-Jan-08 18:40:27

Message withdrawn

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 18:41:42


No to ironing his shirts or no to snuffling at your burrow?

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 18:42:11

lol cod
iorek bugger me that is an excellent idea

Do it onebat. You could serialise it on mumsnet Victorian style

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 18:48:11

i think cod's no was to 'do you write or think?'..

Oh i see. Yes that's funny. Me neither.

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 18:50:38

He died of syphilis, didn't he? So probably some good material for sexlife novel?

I don't think it should be researched too thoroughly. Although I think you should advise on the ladies' downstairs coiffures threadworm.

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 18:55:08

Oh, yes. I was thinking of a career change. I'll open a Literary Minge Consultancy.

Snort! If I was drinking tea it would be coming out of my nose right now.

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 19:17:08

I think it might have to be an artistic minge consultancy rather than narrowly literary. Was Frida Kahlo's incy moustache not recently discussed as an alternative to the full Brazilian?

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 19:26:54

fluff at the top then bald underneath? I like it!

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 19:39:53

OBM What you describe seems to be the comb-under?

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 19:58:49

ach. Can't decide, so I'm going to leave the decision to Frau Koch, Oberdepilatur at the Spa Angst.

Monkeytrousers Fri 11-Jan-08 20:02:58

Didn't he say, "If thou goest to woman, take a whip!"

Don't think he was thinking walnuts.

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 20:05:55

I believe Threadworm might need more than the standard 45 min appointment with Frau Koch blush. Her DH said to get it done, as much as it costs and as long as it takes. I fear she may be years at the Spa Angst.

Monkeytrousers Fri 11-Jan-08 20:07:56

Syphilis? Really?

Well he might have had sex but looking at that 'tash he was certianly no ladies man!

Imagine the state of it after chowing down!

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 20:08:37

Good god no. My DH is quite a fan of the 'fuller minge'.

Monkeytrousers Fri 11-Jan-08 20:09:32

or after a bit of mouthlove

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 20:10:26

I am ,howevwer, booking into the Spa Angst. I intend to blow hot and cold in the Existential Crisis Steam Room.

Monkeytrousers Fri 11-Jan-08 20:11:09

or yodeling up the valley

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 20:14:41

Threadworm - LOL

Monkeytrousers Fri 11-Jan-08 20:16:53

“It is the most sensual men who need to flee women and torment their bodies.” Err, yeah Fred, if you say so hmm

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 20:18:34

Would that be Sigmund Fred?

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 20:19:34

torment their bodies is a ref to the men's own bodies I think MT?
may be wrong but think it is about self-mastery/

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 20:21:52

Yes. I think he would say, the greater the deisre, the greater the repression. Hence sensualists would go in for more self-torment.

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 20:22:56

Freud's moustache is quite dapper. I think I will ask Frau Koch for a 'Freud'.

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 20:23:52

I think he was highly likely a homosexual.

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 20:26:47

Based on the moustache? Or the psychological theory?

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 20:28:45

Threadworm - Best be specific and ask for a Sigmund lest you end up with a Clement, with eye droop thrown in free? Perhaps.

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 20:29:29

Nietzsche went to Sicily a LOT, which was, I believe, the equivalent of going to Sydney during Mardi Gras.
But, sadly, it's all hearsay.

Monkeytrousers Fri 11-Jan-08 20:30:24

I know that OBM. hmm Honestly!

Still works. Read it again!

(like his own sefl mastery for fighting off his dreams! A very handy excuse for only getting it off prozzers grin)

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 20:30:53

Yes, going to Sicily is not as conclusive as owning a flat in Brighton. grin

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 20:31:07

eurgh Swedes and Liver Lips too! Mr Threadworm would be very disappointed I believe.

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 20:32:48

Oh OBM - the liver lips are the model's own. I don't believe they do trout pout at the Spa Angst.

Hobnobfanatic Fri 11-Jan-08 20:34:10

It's the old immortality thing again, isn't it? Men write to achieve their immortality, as they can't have children (in the birth sense). I write, but my passion and drive has waned since I've produced my ultimate creation: my child.

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 20:34:47

Oh I see Monkey.

Was trying to be casually and discreetly enlightening.. how annoying of me.

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 20:38:39

Swedes, I believe that Frau Koch's depilation technique is quite.. firm, and some inflammation is inevitable. Threadworm, don't get any kind of Freud! You could end up with permanent trout pout.. down there. It doesn't bear thinking about.

Monkeytrousers Fri 11-Jan-08 20:41:40

lets not go there. nice thready

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 20:41:54

Now The Marx on the other hand, offers an opportunity to delight Mr Threadworm with a subtle two-tone effect, whilst retaining the fuller 'do of which he is so fond.

Monkeytrousers Fri 11-Jan-08 20:43:01

Speaking of jewish fellas, does anyone else fancy that geeky looking doc for ER?

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 20:45:08

aah Hobnob 'kinell I'd forgotten that whole approach. It is male writers who are anxious, empty, lacking!
<slaps forehead>
Do you know, I suddenly feel MUCH better!

Monkeytrousers Fri 11-Jan-08 20:45:48

And do you think the israeli boycott on some campuses extended to refusing the advances of such nicve jewish boys? (wondering aloud - just ignore me)

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 20:46:34

lol jewish fellas.
link MT?

Monkeytrousers Fri 11-Jan-08 21:28:51

okay you asked for it.

geek city

I do like Luca, but this guy floats my boat too. Like the curly haired look! But not Bruno from Fame though!!

Dr Lucien

But really he is a poor mans
Mathieu Kassovitz He's the one on the left, the cute one grin

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 21:56:27

Can kind of see Dr Lucien.. but would far prefer Vincent Cassel in La Haine to Kassovitz, I think.

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 22:20:53

Any more ideas of philosophical moustaches on which I case base the styling of my Immanuel Kant?

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 22:24:50

rofl Threadie!

Swedes Fri 11-Jan-08 22:31:55

Threadworm - It is your categorical imperative to have whatever style pleases you most. grin

Threadworm Fri 11-Jan-08 22:34:32

<Wonders if categorical imperatives whisper from the depths of your organism. Decides not.>

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 22:42:40

threadworm I believe this won't scare the horses, but will reassure dp that you are not 'letting yourself go'.

And I admire his strength of character, don't you, in not deed-polling his name to Andrew.

onebatmother Fri 11-Jan-08 22:43:38
Monkeytrousers Sat 12-Jan-08 00:57:36

La Haine? Vincent Cassel? Oh you would love Irreversable!

Monkeytrousers Sat 12-Jan-08 01:00:19

The philosphucal 'tash is not the same as the sexually attractive tash. even with Tom Selleck. Does that mean moustaches are misogynist? Cos I hate them?

Monkeytrousers Sat 12-Jan-08 01:01:03

I cold build a whole philosphy around that...

Swedes Sat 12-Jan-08 15:04:55

Q. Why did Kant write the Second Critique?

A. So he could finish the sentence that he started in the first one.

Swedes Sat 12-Jan-08 15:53:59

Jean-Paul Sartre is sitting at a French cafe, revising his draft of Being and Nothingness. He says to the waitress, "I'd like a cup of coffee, please, with no cream." The waitress replies, "I'm sorry, monsieur, but we're out of cream. How about with no milk?"

Threadworm Sat 12-Jan-08 17:44:50

And Sartre refused, saying, "If I drink it without milk rather thancream it make me nauseous."

Swedes Sat 12-Jan-08 19:27:12

And Freud said to Satre: "I stay away from dairy, I get all my milk from my mother" shock

Swedes Sat 12-Jan-08 19:27:46


onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 21:25:11

Suddenly Bertrand Russell stormed in. He threw down his bag of books and, at the top of his voice, cried: "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."

The diners, embarrassed, fell silent.

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 21:41:21

My editor has just pointed out that should read:

"The diners fell silent."

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 22:01:35

that that should read:

"The diners fell silent."

Threadworm Sat 12-Jan-08 22:16:51

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent," said the diners (quoting Wittgenstein who, oddly, had no moustache).

Swedes Sat 12-Jan-08 22:42:39

OBM Did your editor say to you: "If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing"?

Hegel joined the (we need a collective noun for philosphers - Threadworm where are you?)happy chaps at the cafe. He was not much impressed that the French waiting staff could not speak German: 'Only one man ever understood me....and he didn't understand me' said Hegel without so much as one sip of his Absinthe.

Threadworm Sat 12-Jan-08 22:47:29

'Waiter, I didn't order Absinthe,' said Hegel in disgust. 'Get me some of that self-positing spirit.'

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 22:50:19

"God, how we loathed Hegel," continued Grand-Mere.

"Whereas Wittgenstein was such a happy soul! Always goosing the waitresses, singing rugby songs and sticking feathers in his arsehole, before falling into a puddle of his own vomit."

She grew quiet. After a short while, she drew us closer, and continued, in a hushed tone: "But girls, Hegel made good. Wittgenstein died poor, and his family with him."

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 22:52:02

i love myself

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 22:53:40

which is lucky

Swedes Sat 12-Jan-08 22:54:47

'Was sagst du?' Hegel asked the French waiter. Nietzsche reminded Hegel that words can be communicated as clearly through the unsaid as through the said, even if the said is in a langage you don't understand.

Threadworm Sat 12-Jan-08 22:57:41

'If a lion could speak,' said Wittgenstein, feather poised in mid-insertion, 'we would not be able to understand it.'

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 22:59:08

What? said stupid Kant.

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 23:00:37

correction VASS? said stupid kant

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 23:03:37

you are all googling aren't you?
whereas I have it AAAALLL at my fingertips.

Swedes Sat 12-Jan-08 23:03:37


Swedes Sat 12-Jan-08 23:05:19

My thesis is that realism is neither demonstrable nor refutable said Popper, removing the feather that had been partically inserted in his anus.

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 23:07:21

The diners gagged, and took a moment to consider their position.

Threadworm Sat 12-Jan-08 23:08:09

@Verify this, Popper,' cried Frued, shoving his fist in Karl's face. 'And if I give you a few quick kicks and a poke in the idea, that all adds up to a complete proof based on the coherence concept of truth.'

Threadworm Sat 12-Jan-08 23:09:17

That would be Freud, of course, not Frued. (But you all worked that out from his status as a foe of Popper.)

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 23:09:43

and load the dishwasher

Swedes Sat 12-Jan-08 23:10:30

A feudr with Freud?

Swedes Sat 12-Jan-08 23:11:20

I have to go to bed. But what is the collective noun for philosphers?

Threadworm Sat 12-Jan-08 23:14:09

a stagnation of philosophers? A vacuum? A tedium? A complexity?

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 23:14:42

wittgenstein, by now SERIOUSLY freaked out, pulled out his mobile phone, and dialled the emergency services. "Come quickly," he responded to the 999 operator, "there is a man here who has thought himself out of existence! He is delusional, and asserts that "“Our knowledge can only be finite, while our ignorance must necessarily be infinite.”
PLUS.. Frued is dead!"

Threadworm Sat 12-Jan-08 23:15:10

A disambiguation.

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 23:16:18

a Smirk of philosophers I believe Swedes

Threadworm Sat 12-Jan-08 23:18:00

Frued is dead?
And Swede's in Bed!
What can be shown
Cannot be said!

Threadworm Sat 12-Jan-08 23:19:31

The culprit's Popper
That verificationis rotter!

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 23:21:22

Thread! No-one told me you had to freakin' RHYME!?

You are SUCH an over-achiever.

Swedes Sat 12-Jan-08 23:28:45

Oooh. I like all those collective nouns. Thank you.

DP made me a lovely cup of tea, with milk grin so I can't go to bed yet.

onebatmother Sat 12-Jan-08 23:38:14

My hands are like lead. Must go to bed. I have a pain in my head. I regret what I said.


Kids! Don't Forget! Mr Popper Says:

“It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood.”

This gives you a license to say anything. Which is lucky, because I suspect you will.

Threadworm Sun 13-Jan-08 09:21:27

In saunters Proudhon, completely at home in the anarchic surroundings.

'Cup of tea please, and none of your herbal nonsense -- because...

The brawling philosophers freeze, stilled by the ominous closeness of a terrible pun.

'...because proper tea is freedom.'

Threadworm Sun 13-Jan-08 09:22:09

'Although, at these prices, proper tea is theft.'

Threadworm Sun 13-Jan-08 09:25:14

Then Voldemort slips in, ignoring the 'No Wizards or Theologians' sign.

'Tea please,' he says, adding with studied casualness 'Ooh and could I have philosophers' stone with that, I'm not an evil wizard you know.'

'Certainly sir. One lump or two?'

onebatmother Sun 13-Jan-08 13:00:03

Then, in an unexpected turn of events, John Lennon burst through the swing doors, like whatsisname in Seinfeld.

He had a right cob on, having recently realized that his early flirtation with Nietzsche had made him look rather foolish; an outcome the very opposite to that which he had desired.

"Beans on toast", he snapped at the waiter.
"I'm sorry, Sir, but beans are off," the waiter replied. "Though we have some lovely legume soup."
"I need beans!" replied the clever one from the Beatles.

There was a low murmur, and a scraping of chairs, as the restaurant's clientele rose as one to their feet, temporarily united by the late Sixties. They took out their lighters, raised them aloft, and began to sway in unison. Their voices, when they came, were suprisingly melodious:

"All we are say-ing, is give peas a chance."


Swedes Sun 13-Jan-08 13:44:45

The waiter returned to Voldemort's table: "Sir, would you like jam and clotted cream with your philosopher's stone or would you like it plain with a smidgeon of unsalted butter."
"Oh without jam, without clotted cream and without butter," replied Voldermort, kindly.

Moments later the waiter returned. "We are clean out of clotted cream, clean out of jam and clean out of unsalted butter. Might you like your philosopher's stone without cheese, we have a whole frigging trolley load of that stuff, some from one-horned goats?"

RustyBear Sun 13-Jan-08 14:09:50

I thought this was a parenting site, not a philosphy forum, but this thread has proved me wrong - it's Nietzsche not nurture....

onebatmother Sun 13-Jan-08 16:24:13

oh yes, oh yes.

Swedes Sun 13-Jan-08 16:43:25

And John Lennon said: 'Will the people in the cheaper seats clap your hands? And the rest of you, if you'll just rattle your jewellery.' And Friedrich, Immanuel (silly Kant), Sigmund, Georg, Karl and Pierre-Joseph rattled the diamonds that decorated their nipple-piercings.

onebatmother Sun 13-Jan-08 17:12:08

Rustybear wins this year's Aristotelian Memorial Award (commonly known as the Tabula Rasa).

First prize: a week all expenses paid at the Spa Angst under the personal care of the rather handsome Dr Carl.

Jung man!

Swedes is advised to go for a brisk Apollonian walk as her Dionysian aspect is perceived to be very much to the fore today.

RustyBear Sun 13-Jan-08 17:49:43

<<Takes award>>
There are so many people I'd like to thank tonight....
<<rustybear breaks down in tears and becomes unitelligible...>>

RustyBear Sun 13-Jan-08 17:50:29

...and illiterate..


onebatmother Sun 13-Jan-08 19:51:59

<bounds onto stage, puts arm round RB in pretence of caring, and hustles her towards burly minders, hissing 'get her off the fucking stage, ffs, don't you remember last year when she took her top off?'>

Okaaay! Next up is the award that I know you've ALL been waiting for. Yes, it's the ...

Threadworm Sun 13-Jan-08 22:17:35

... the 'How to keep Threadworm Waiting' award?

onebatmother Sun 13-Jan-08 23:08:38

lol threadie!

have you perfected your 'It's not the winning, it's the taking part, and Dame Helen, I am soo glad for you" face?

Threadworm Mon 14-Jan-08 09:47:01

lol. No. But I'm working on my drunkenly-seizing-the-microphone-and-abusing-the-judges routine. grin

By the way, Thomas Nagel (no moustache) has a question for you.

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 10:39:35

It's usually very nice thank you.

He's rather attractive though, I think? In an older man kind of way. Certainly the best so far, no?

Threadworm Mon 14-Jan-08 10:43:59

This raises an important question. Who is the sexiest philosopher, living or dead?

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 11:18:43

I believe the competition is over before it has even begun.

Swedes Mon 14-Jan-08 12:31:54

Wittgenstein bears an uncanny likeness to my brother in law. Brother in law talks more than any man I have ever met - he jumps seamlessly from topic to topic expecting everyone to keep up. It's totally gorgeous. However, for me Wittgenstein's look is an unsexy version of Ted Hughes sort of Td Hughes lite. Do poets count as philospophers?

Swedes Mon 14-Jan-08 12:33:47

Also Wittgenstein's face in that picture says one word to me - agriculture.

Threadworm Mon 14-Jan-08 13:52:04

Wouldn't throw Albert Camus out of bed.

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 14:40:15

Good lord to both of you

Swedes: of course poets don't count as philosophers, though I cede your point re TH Lite. Nothing wrong with agriculture though, shurely? Lawrentian wrestling etc etc.

Threadworm. Hmm. Not bad, not bad at all. Not quite prepared to surrender yet. Remove the fag and you remove much of the sex appeal I think

Whereas Lacan, here, has the advantage of youth and, I believe, some form of loincloth.

Swedes Mon 14-Jan-08 14:55:06

OBM So TH is not a philosopher but John Lennon is.

Hairdresser for me.

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 15:05:15

Oh My God, Swedes! Did you think I though JL a philosopher?! Did you consider cutting me next time we meet?

No no, I thought I'd just about managed to shoehorn him in because of his nietzsche flirtation and threadie's der-eadful puns.

And because DP in manner of fathers everywhere recommends that batlets 'give peas a chance' whenever we have them.

My own father used to make dad-jokes about pea-ing on the table.

But where were we? Any more contenders in the sexy philosophers challenge?

Threadworm Mon 14-Jan-08 15:08:54

<Agonizes about the potential emabarrassment of submitting a novelist as a sexy philosopher when poets have been so controversially disallowed.>

Lacan no good. Too Joe Orton. Too Morocco.

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 16:36:41

lol Orton/Morocco!

<peers over pince-nez, adopts kindly, but firm tone>
Threadworm, where would we be if there were no rules? Chaos! Anarchy!

OK I offer a concession for your consideration - though I wish it to be minuted that I do NOT approve of this dilution, on principle.

Very VERY literary novelists. Must be very difficult.

Threadworm Mon 14-Jan-08 16:51:16

I tjhink we are seriously going to have to give up the quest for a sexy philosopher. This is the best I've found (Jeremy Bentham)

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 17:03:19

ok. think you're right <sigh>
I had entertained very high hopes for Foucault, but he was piggin'. And gay. Likewise Baudrillard, not sure about orientation.

<Sighs again.>

<whistlingy-windy sound, as OBM is cast down into the Slough of Despond>

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 17:11:43

Swedes, is your brother in law at a loose end?

Threadworm Mon 14-Jan-08 18:09:13

Re Bat's dad's joke, did you here the one about the two philosophers waiting to use an oversubscribed toilet at a conference?

One says wearily to the other 'P entails Q.'

<Hangs head in shame.>

Is Swedes' BIL a sexy philosopher then? <hopeful>

Threadworm Mon 14-Jan-08 18:10:20

<hangs head further>

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 18:30:18


literary novelists no good?

Threadworm Mon 14-Jan-08 18:33:04

Nah. Felf sure Dostoysevsky would be hot. But alas not.

Swedes Mon 14-Jan-08 18:52:33

I have lovely shiny new haircut and low-lights which is a relief as I had post-natal hair (a look indistinguishable from a crystal meth addict, interestingly). I walked back (well flounced really) from the hairdresser feeling quite hopeful about you two having found for me a red hot philosopher.

I definitely prefer the dead philosophers.

BIL is a GP.

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 18:55:59

I am SOO hearing Swedes LOUD and CLEAR re AdeB!
GP? not end of world, certainly..
V glad you are shiny happy person.

RustyBear Mon 14-Jan-08 19:17:23

Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable.

Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table.

David Hume could out-consume
Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel,
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.

There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
'Bout the raising of the wrist.
Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed.

John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.

Plato, they say, could stick it away--
Half a crate of whisky every day.

Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle.
Hobbes was fond of his dram,

And René Descartes was a drunken fart.
'I drink, therefore I am.'

Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed,
A lovely little thinker,
But a bugger when he's pissed.

RustyBear Mon 14-Jan-08 19:18:24

Just thought I'd lower the tone a little further...

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 19:36:05

Rusty: lowering the tone "a
further would bring us to, say, kierkegaard.

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 19:36:52

swedes "post-natal hair" sounds.. medical.

Threadworm Mon 14-Jan-08 21:39:39

I've always kind of fancied Beckett, if we are allowed playwrights. He was philosophical.

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 22:08:30

gah. just lost ludicrously long post which centred on my ownership of Beckett.

Ok, so we're broadening it to anything .. thinky?

Monkeytrousers Mon 14-Jan-08 22:12:35

Fancied? As in bibically?

How about Krapp?

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 22:22:16


I believe Mr Bertrand Russell would disapprove of this, and almost anything else you'd care to name.

OK. New Comp. Match the philosopher to the emotion!

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 22:25:00

Are you absolutely positive you are telling the truth?

onebatmother Mon 14-Jan-08 22:31:48

and a late-entry for the sexiest philosopher is
the rather lovely Kierkegaard

Monkeytrousers Mon 14-Jan-08 23:57:35

Kierkegaard only becasue he has the flush of youth about him!

Threadworm Tue 15-Jan-08 00:12:00

1. Kierkegaard: too boyish.
2. Bertrand Russell was reputedly a bit of a goer with the ladies I think.
3. Will withdraw all claim on Beckett if Onebat already owns him.
4. Am ashamed with myself for allowing slipage from the noble art of philosophy to 'anything thinky'. grin
5. I still can't think of a sexy philosopher. Surely there must be one.

Quattrocento Tue 15-Jan-08 00:15:08

What a fab thread. Has no one suggested Sartre yet?

I like Camus. I do really really fancy Camus. Just a bit worried that he might be a little short. Does that matter in a dead philosopher?

Threadworm Tue 15-Jan-08 09:16:56

Sartre should be sexy, he really should. But I've googled him and he's not.

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 10:14:24

my darlings I have found a new photo of Camus, without the fag..

He is rather dishy,it's true.

Threadworm Tue 15-Jan-08 10:29:45

Yes. But but about Quattro's concern about his height? The ciggies might have stunted his growth. The general rule for philosophers is that shortness is valued only in their prose, not in their stature.

Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 11:00:15

Bertrand Russell has a look which says: disappointing gift-giver.

<preferable to the AdeB 'last days of the comb-over'>

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 11:02:05

<whispers> why do we think he's short, though? He was a great hit with the ladies, by all accounts.

Threadworm Tue 15-Jan-08 12:11:53
Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 14:51:29

I can cope with my hot philosopher looking as though he reeks of tobacco and might not have laundered his suit since 1876 but short?

Do you know about short man syndrome?

Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 15:09:01

Camus yuk. He has a Sarkozy look about him. He would be running off with Carla Bruni before you could say ^"I know of only one duty, and that is to love"^

Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 15:16:35

Most of these philosophers and Beckett etc, have really intelligant faces - it sort of shines from behind the eyes. I like that in a person. Really thick people always look dead behind the eyes.

Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 16:34:46

intelligent I mean

Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 16:37:40

<swedes wonders whether the others have abandoned the thread to have an early supper with their short partners - I see you plumping up his booster cushion at the head of the table>

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 16:46:01

lolololo! booster cushion! plumping!
still here, but distracted by kids - i will be back.

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 16:52:16
Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 17:18:33

Threadworm - In that cartoon you linked - the speech bubble coming from the young dude should say "Fucker" or "Shit for Brains"

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 17:29:52

answer: she doesn't laugh at your links?

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 17:31:49


Swedes question for you

Threadworm Tue 15-Jan-08 18:02:28

Swede: Why so horrid to Kant??? <dumb emoticon>

Threadworm Tue 15-Jan-08 18:10:06

Oh is it because Kant has just called the dude a, well, 'Kant'? Silly me. Dur!

Threadworm Tue 15-Jan-08 18:11:56

Or is it because his transcendentalist account of practical reasoning ignores the real texture of our moral lives in favour of a dessicated rationalism?

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 18:13:30

absolutely the latter threadie.

<whispers: you do know that it's the american pronounciation of "can't" that the dude is responding to, don't you?>

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 18:18:21

oh ho, crossed wires, you were responding to Swedes shit for brains. Dur indeed.

Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 19:14:09

Threadworm - Your last post contains a structural ambiguity - I don't know which Kant you are referring to?

Threadworm Tue 15-Jan-08 19:45:13

The philosopher. Any other sense of 'dessicated Kant' would belong in the health or relationships topics.

<hanging on to the meanings of posts by the skin of my teeth and wondering if it wouldn't be simpler to do some real philosophy grin>

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 20:01:00

<hisses: Swedes, isn't it a lexical ambiguity?

rather than "Swedes knows a sexier philosopher than Kant?"
ie Swedes knows a philosopher who is more sexy than Kant is OR Swedes knows a philosopher who is more sexy than the philosopher that Kant knows"

Sorry to be a pedantic Kant.

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 20:11:50

"No such page. Either Swedes has not created a public page yet or its privacy settings don't allow you to see it."

drums bat-claws loudly.

Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 22:40:27

I was referring to the pronoun his which creates a structural ambiguity. We had already established, via propositional calculus, that there are two Kants. As Threadworm so eloquently put it, "the philosopher" and the other Kant.

I heartily recommend Wilfred Hodges book - An Introduction to Elemnentary Logic - for a little light reading between toddler naps.

Have you helped your master down from his dining chair and replumped his booster seat ready for breakfast? Do you then give him a leg up onto the sofa. Suspect he manages to get himself off on his own quite easily? shock

Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 22:51:45

Threadworm - V big lol

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 23:00:40

Oh Swedes you are good. Damn and double-damn you.

I have no need of Mr Hodges, thank you.
<scuttles off to Amazon in doomed attempt to keep up with Swedes, her sharpened brain, and her lowlights>

Mr Bat (prenom: Napoleon) is comfortable, thank you. He has shucked off his shoes, put his accessories away, and is swinging his little legs in a doomed attempt to make our rocking chair move.

Must go, have to stand wordlessly behind him and 'accidentally' rock the chair.

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 23:01:42

rocking chair bit is true btw, miss lowlights.

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 23:06:10

yes threadie, what Swedes said, forgot to high-five 'doing' philosophy.

Why don't you do philosophy? I will limit myself to something generically thinky. OR we could have comedy bookgroup? Like R and J, but where everyone just says "er.. "

Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 23:13:16

Oooh I had never thought of bringing a tobboggan indoors. Is it ^after Arne Jaccobsen^ (sp)? or not yet available at Ilva? grin

<Sven had those shoes, those very ones, dare I ask how short tall>

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 23:19:49

if you have to sp Arne Jacobsen I'm not sure I should answer. You are modernist, surely, Swedes?

snicker DP is 6'2"

But I had the rocker specially adapted - added a metre in height - to keep him infantilized.

Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 23:22:23

Phew. was bracing myself for 5'4" of choking on my tea.

Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 23:23:49

What is modernist? Discuss

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 23:24:52

but didn't you secretly love the idea of infantilized dp swinging leeetle legs? Talking in helium voice? Doing colouring-in?

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 23:28:59

is Modern...Ist.

look at the post-modern thread btw you may have something to add. OR - you may find you cannot quite be arsed.

Swedes Tue 15-Jan-08 23:32:30

I had more imagined it swinging little legs, doing colouring-in, whilst smoking a giant cigar and shouting: "Onebat, more fucking Ribena" in a voice not unlike Bob Hoskins in The Long Good Friday.

onebatmother Tue 15-Jan-08 23:46:45

Oh you do make me laugh, Swedes..

But Nope. 6'2" was true but so was helium-voice.

Threadworm Wed 16-Jan-08 09:49:38

Lol at you two. grin

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 11:05:23

grin must work today.

Swedes Wed 16-Jan-08 14:53:06

OBM Thanks for sharing re DP's helium voice problem. Low testosterone isn't the end of the world (perhaps he proved that to you by helping you breastfeed?). He certainly looks like he has a lovely personality though?

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 14:57:53

shock breastfeeding helium man!

have done bugger bugger allagain today.

Threadie, Swedes do you like Georgette Heyer?

Threadworm Wed 16-Jan-08 15:07:27

My dh is neither short nor tall, and he doesn't have a funny voice. But he is very hairy all over. Can we laugh at him for that?

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 15:33:22

I think so, don't you?

Swedes Wed 16-Jan-08 15:51:51

Threadworm I would never be so cruel to laugh at someone for being hairy but tell him he is very silly not to have gone to the dentist to get his gnashers looked at these past 20 years. Is his breath really honky or OK if you wear your Sars mask indoors?

Very relieved to hear no shorty - I was a little worried that you had left the thread in order to give growth hormones a whirl.

DP is 6' 2" in his Shawaddywaddy outfit.

Swedes Wed 16-Jan-08 16:09:10

Did I say Showaddywaddywaddy, silly me, I meant Slade

DP has found that the exceptionally high boots look retro-chic with the short-sleeved shirt with epaulettes. This look is finished off with the post-modernist, post white-cube-gallery, addition of a cycle clip. (This identifies him as an admirer of Jeremy Deller's work.) It's a look many have copied (Sadie Frost flirted with the look for a short while but then drifted off in search of a younger look) but few can truly carry it off.

<I should get a life really>

Threadworm Wed 16-Jan-08 16:17:20

Well I did say DH wasn't short, but you both seem for have >6 footers. So, actually, he is short by local standards. And hairy by any standards.

The linked pic is quite a good resemblance, but alas! Choobacca(sp) can drive spaceships but DH cannot even drive a car.

Swedes Wed 16-Jan-08 17:07:06

Threadworm - I'm interested in the not driving a car thing.
For green reasons?
In the interests of the road-using public?
Does he have a chauffeur and therefore no need to learn to drive?
Is he 17 and eagerly awaiting a provisional lic?

Interestingly, the cleverest man I have ever met had no clear idea why he never learnt (or wanted to learn) to drive (he still can't drive at 47 (ish) afaik) - he just felt it wasn't for him apparently. He was breathtakingly brilliant at completing Araucaria crosswords which was completely maddening (I was in 20s and fiercely competitive at the time).

Threadworm Wed 16-Jan-08 18:19:27

Well, he's an academic and they tend to lead rather sheltered lives. He's been a rather single-minded swotty type all his life and never ventured into anything practical. And then I was sucker enough to learn to drive before him so he had little incentive. Grr.

The road-using public is definitely safer this way. He has little sense of left and right, and on our driving along a humble B-road one day many years ago, he vaguely said 'Is this a motorway. Also, he is Mr Magoo.

Although he is not 17 I have to say that he is usually eagerly awaiting a provisional lic. Often in vain.

Monkeytrousers Wed 16-Jan-08 19:38:14

I managed to successfully avoid Satre and most of the French lot all the way through a humanites degree. I quite liked Walter Benjamin though, I thibk..was reading Gunter Grass at the same time

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 19:46:01

grin in partic epaulettes/cuban heel/cycle clip combo (Swedes tell me this is only on dress-dwon Fridays?), and magoo on c-roads.

Threadie, do you think his hairyness has been a factor in dp's driving refusal? overendowed in one area of (constructed, of course) masculinity so must underachieve in another?

I can say this bcs dp 49 (shock, on so many levels) only learnt to drive 4 years ago, and I am learning now. Like retard family.

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 19:49:19

MT Aaach! Gunter.
His name alone makes me feel kind of ... squirmy.

Suspect that he and Frau Koch have an arrangement. Two very small holes drilled in the eyes of the portrait of Mister Koch which hangs on the wall of the depilation suite at the Spa Angst?

Swedes Wed 16-Jan-08 19:58:34

Threadie - V excited about your academic - in what field of impracticality does he toil? I have a very serious question - does he have an academic haircut? If yes, is it very high maintenence? What styling products should I look out for - I am thinking TiGi Bed Hair but I may be way off?

<dare I ask if Hushpuppies are still the Professors' favourite footwear as voted in what Academic Shoe Monthly as my subscription has lapsed?>

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 20:19:52

<wipes eyes, whimpers>

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 20:22:13

<whimper> caused, in particular, by subject's clear assumption that he has excellent hair.

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 20:23:27

and Threadie - is the elbow patch now standard on corduroy jackets, or still an optional upgrade?

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 20:24:30

<whispers> Threadie, I have impractical dp too.

Swedes Wed 16-Jan-08 20:26:41

I am being called for assistance with the drying and dressing of small children. If only I had a "Do not disturb, I am working on my theorem" haircut. Grr

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 20:29:08

or "do not disturb my large brain has pushed my aesthetics out of my skull" haircut.

Swedes Wed 16-Jan-08 21:24:07

DP has had the same book at his bedside for over a year. Occasionally, I pick it up and do a bit of phonetic reading aloud to him, like a 4 year old - "I a m am a g g g oo oo goo d good r e re a d read er reader" oh how I laugh.

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 21:42:23

grin he must adore your piquant humour as much as my own squeaky darling.

Does he often try to smother you with anything to hand kisses?

Threadworm Wed 16-Jan-08 21:43:48

This is in fact the closest resemblance of my DP on the internet.

Unfortunately it does not show his bodyhair, which I will leave to your imaginations.

The theory that hyper-evident masculinity in one respect (or two: though he is somewhat short he is also somewhat ... long) permits a relaxed attidute to masculiny display in other respects is one that I have indeed considered. He is quite happy to be a non-driver, to like flowery designs, and so forth.

His particular area of impractical toil is in British history.

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 21:45:48

oh my giddy goddy threadie!
I have self-soiled.
And am so very much enjoying 'hyper-evident'.
And scared to ask about 'long'.

onebatmother Wed 16-Jan-08 21:52:44

though 'long' could be worse. Could be 'heavy'.

Or do you mean in the torso?

Threadworm Thu 17-Jan-08 09:32:22

I became worried last night that I had revealed too much info about my dh and that he would be identified/upset. Thinking of getting my last post deleted. Or perhaps I am just being paranoid/stupid.

toomanydaves Thu 17-Jan-08 09:56:54

please do not stop this thread. I have not laughed this much for ages. And yesterday when walking to pick the dcs up I found myself inadvertently wondering which philosophical Kant style some of my fellow playground dwellers were sporting. Then I quickly erased that thought.

Swedes Thu 17-Jan-08 10:03:15

Threadie - And his specialism within British History is clearly motorways. I think it's lovely that he is not afraid to express his feminine side. Is he fond of a good frock like Grayson Perry shock
I've noticed that academics are often very long. winded All academics should be made to spend 7 years of their toil learning to write a concise sentence. Although, those with really brilliant academic hair should be let off.

Threadworm Thu 17-Jan-08 10:12:33

Lol. I reported my last-but-one post and asked for it to be deleted. I know that I am a total numpty but I had night-time anxieties about upseting him, even though this is all harmless idiocy.

Swedes Thu 17-Jan-08 12:00:25

I am interested now in the level of impracticality in your DP/DH. Was it he or you who first suggested you get a man in?

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 12:20:03

Oh good toomanydaves

Ah, threadie, don't panic, think it's fine, hope you feel better after deletion?
Shall we move the subject away from dp's 'qualifications' for a little?

Swedes Thu 17-Jan-08 13:02:34

OBM - Good idea. Can we return to Nietzsche and his philosopher friends? Lonely hearts ads for philosophers, what would it say, where would the ad be placed?

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 13:13:11

<whimpers, realizes Swedes is siren, luring her out of her depth and to a place where the infinity of her ignorance will certainly be revealed..>

You start Swedes.

BTW I am going to try very very hard this pm to not be on MN. Am shutting down browser. Farewell, till eveningtide.


Threadworm Thu 17-Jan-08 13:55:05

Contract theorist seeks similar for game playing in a state of nature. Must like it nasty, brutish and short.

(Larger applicants -- whale-like proportions -- welcome in a disciplinary role.)

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 14:09:41

I think we may be compatible. I've attached a photo
Am based in Herts/Middx area but can travel if you can put me up.

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 14:51:50

and actually, didn't I just win the sexiest philosopher comp?

Threadworm Thu 17-Jan-08 15:27:21

Insecure anti-realist seeks girlfriend who will not disappear the minute his back is turned.

Apply: Bp Berkeley.

(Agree Rousseau is best so far. Bit of a weirdo though.)

(Lonely hearts thing a brill idea swedes.)

Threadworm Thu 17-Jan-08 15:56:17

Desparately seeking Godot

Where were you? We waited ages. Same time, same place next week. This time, wear a red carnation so we don't miss you.

Threadworm Thu 17-Jan-08 15:58:20

Solipsist seeks ... well, anyone, really. Please.

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 16:08:11

Empiricist seeks new experiences.

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 16:11:19

inexperienced rationalist wishes to be deduced.

Threadworm Thu 17-Jan-08 16:32:34


onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 16:42:00

subjective idealist seeks same for long forest walks

Swedes Thu 17-Jan-08 16:45:44

Oh big LOL
Stoic seeks virtuous woman for respectful relationship.

Philosopher seeks woman with big milky breasts and motherly temperament.
Apply Freud, c/o Spa Angst, Leipzig
(Ad placed in Mother's Weekly and on Mumsnet homepage)

Philosopher seeks woman for lengthy dialogue, platonic relationship assured.
Apply Plato c/o Spa Angst

Philosopher seeks relative to explore.
Apply Einstein c/o Spa Angst
(Ad placed in Inbreeding Without AI)

Swedes Thu 17-Jan-08 16:48:55

Skeptic seeks partner - although it probably won't work out.

Swedes Thu 17-Jan-08 16:53:22

Confucianist seeks man or woman.

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 17:12:58

deity seeks agnostic for fun times (no commitment required)

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 18:19:56

<flicks idly through lonely hears, pauses at 'dialectics' section.

"Thesis has played the field, but is ready for commitment - perhaps even kids. Seeks antithesis with a view to producing gorgeous bouncing syntheses."

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 18:21:15

<and makes hefty donation to Wikipedia>

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 18:23:30


<wipes sweat from brow, looks around anxiously, and makes hefty .. &etc.>

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 20:23:26

marxist seeks business opportunity, in confidence.

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 20:26:55

secular humanist seeks reassurance that he is not a bit.. predictable.

Absurdist seeks lawnmower.

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 20:30:02

situationist seeks fun-loving partner for mutual pranking.

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 20:31:31

Swedes, might I renew my subscription to Inbreeding Without AI? Thanks.

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 20:33:57

And I'm thinking that the Spa Angst might be precisely the business opportunity for our marxist?

It's a thriving concern with much scope for expansion.

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 20:35:48

If only we could weaken Frau Koch's iron grip on the Depilation Dept.

I curse the day I invited her onto the Board.

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 23:06:42

Don't tell me you've both relocated to the Hotel Gestalt?
Where the beds are so hard?

onebatmother Thu 17-Jan-08 23:35:55

Nighty Night

<puts out light. Makes spoons with Frau Koch>

Threadworm Fri 18-Jan-08 09:26:53

The beds aren't hard. They only seem that way.

Threadworm Fri 18-Jan-08 10:18:36

Rawlsian seeks similar for action in the Original Position. Must bring own veil.

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 10:51:30

grin I love the veil of ignorance, it reminds me of the slough of despond. Am child-laden today so may be gone for some time

Threadworm Fri 18-Jan-08 11:15:45

My mum lived near the slough of despond when she first married. Boy, were her entrails desolate then!

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 11:45:32

lol threadie!

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 12:29:44

moral absolutist has been bad.

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 12:38:40

utilitarian seeks similar for mutually beneficial consequences

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 12:43:04

functionalist seeks sense of purpose - can you help?

Cappuccino Fri 18-Jan-08 12:44:21

onebatmother is this your own personal thread

<scrolls down messages>

why don't you just get a blog and have done with it?

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 12:48:48

iit's just last bloody night when Swedes and Threadie deserted me for the Hotel Gestalt, Baden Baden! Honestly! They were here, really they were..

Cappuccino Fri 18-Jan-08 12:50:44

I don't understand what on earth you are talking about

there there

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 13:13:14

Why are you hounding me Cappie?? My heart still smarts at your Thomas De Quincey barb!

I have run here to shelter from your anti-intellectualism! To be safe, at last, amongst like minds, at the Spa Angst.

(Though to be honest it's not going terrifically well at the moment)

Cappuccino Fri 18-Jan-08 13:14:03

I'm not anti-intellectualist!

I started a rereading the classics thread and no-one came!

<snivels into bookcase>

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 13:16:29

I couldn't find it - I promise I looked! Then I forgot to ask you as have poor memory skills. Wasn't in books, no?

Threadworm Fri 18-Jan-08 13:21:30

Ooh! A Thomas de Quincey barb, how viscious. Puts into perspective the squemishness about c**t on the other thread.

Cappuccino Fri 18-Jan-08 13:48:27

yes twas in adult fiction

Swedes Fri 18-Jan-08 14:25:40

Anti-intellectualist seeks partner for basic and simple fun over a cappucino.

Swedes Fri 18-Jan-08 14:28:47

Sorry. I have been neglecting philosophy in favour of trying to help my son master the art of French. Blind leading blind.

Threadworm Fri 18-Jan-08 16:41:46

'A French politician once wrote that it was a peculiarity of the French language that in it words occur in the order in which one thinks them' (L. Wittgenstein). Does that help at all?

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 20:14:59

onebat retires, briefly, to nurse nervous exhaustion brought on by doomed attempt to swim with sharks

Threadworm Fri 18-Jan-08 20:20:53

Swimming with sharks one bat? How so? Link?

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 20:46:48

Sharks are you two clever people
Exhausted swimmer, who would have been devoured were it not for rescue by dashing lifeguard Brad Wikipedia, is me.

Swedes Fri 18-Jan-08 20:49:00


Swedes Fri 18-Jan-08 20:54:50

OBM & Threadie - I would be very grateful for your brains re my dilemma of the week. Any thoughts?

LordPercivalGhosty Fri 18-Jan-08 21:03:07

OK Swedes, did it (feels nauseous with jealousy, about almost everything)

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 21:06:19

Now that was disconcerting, wasn't it?
Sorry, name-changed for the Georgette Heyer Thread.

I urge you to answer my ealrier q, darlings - have you even heard of GH?

Swedes Fri 18-Jan-08 21:11:47

OH gawd - and there was I getting all excited about having made a spooky new mumsnet friend.

Swedes Fri 18-Jan-08 21:15:14

My sister laughed and laughed (she had to hang up the phone as couldn't speak) when I told her we were thinking (well not we, me really) of downsizing to get more free time. She thinks we already have major lazyitis. Which is sort of true.

Threadworm Fri 18-Jan-08 22:51:06

I have heard of her, but always thought she was a bit like this. I heard something about her a while ago which contradicted this image, so perhaps I should check her out.

Threadworm Fri 18-Jan-08 22:51:50

Not swedes sister, I mean.

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 23:03:36

Well she is. And she isn't.
That is very much a hideous modern bookjacket, yes, very much so.

Would it help if I told you that both AS Byatt AND Margaret Drabble were avowed fans, as is Mister Stephen Fry?

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 23:04:18

slight tense problem there.
Which is, in fact, the story of my freakin' week.

Swedes Fri 18-Jan-08 23:07:16

AH OBM - Have you had a bad week? Why so?

Swedes Fri 18-Jan-08 23:09:11

btw - Have never read any GH. What slim volume would you recommend to commence a GH education?

onebatmother Fri 18-Jan-08 23:10:45

no, actually totally fine in real terms, but some slight financial embarrassment on the horizon which is making me a little tense. boom-boom

Thready Sat 19-Jan-08 14:03:31

I'll second swedes question: which is the best GH to start with?

After all, Jane Austen is in one sense strictly Mills and Boon. It's just that she does it supremely unutterable brilliantly.

onebatmother Sat 19-Jan-08 14:33:01

Oh sorry, Swedes, how rude of me. Distracted.

These Old Shades is the first one I read. You have to read them with a vivid imagination, and you have to let yourself go a bit. Well a lot.

I'll wager it is not usual fare for either of you..

But when I have fallen into the Slough of Despond, it is Miss Heyer to whom I turn, not Mr Wittgenstein.

Actually, that was true 15 years ago. Currently I turn to Rioja.

onebatmother Sat 19-Jan-08 14:38:39

Thready - absolutely! re JA. GH cannot be compared. But there is a definite cleverness, and the elements of JA which are sometimes the very best bits - the banter, the structures, the frippery - are distilled in GH and then used liberally. There is also a clear sexual subtext in GH which one has to search harder for in JA.


Have lovely days, both, I will be a bit irregular this w/e..

Vezzie it was a very interesting thread about this comment - "The literary woman, unsatisfied, agitated, desolate in heart and entrails, listening every minute with painful curiosity to the imperative which whispers from the depths of her organism "aut liberi aut libri [either children or books]."

- which quickly degenerated into a discussion of how pubic topiary might be themed according to the facial hair of the great philosophers.

bugger! wrong thread!

Threadworm Wed 25-Feb-09 11:49:00

Iorek! It is at least 40 days too soon for a resurrection!

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